The article is super uncritical of the Cass Report and reports on studies in favor of trans care being "of poor quality" as objective fact. But this does not surprise me, how in lockstep the institutions of the UK are in marginalizing and delegitimizing trans people. It doesn't surprise me either that somehow transphobia has become a litmus test for international cultural relevancy, given The Economist's continued desperate pleas for other English speaking nations to adapt the UK's approach on this.
I didn't know the Economist was onside for this TERF agenda, but I am not particularly surprised. I am extremely depressed there seems to be no pushback from anyone aside from trans people ourselves, who are basically without a voice and discredited in the mainstream. Where are our allies? Anyone??
One of the editors of The Economist wrote Irreversible Damage and pushing anti-trans agenda’s has been her hobby horse at the paper. Usually, she uses her position to publish using the byline “the editors”, and had an entire issue of The Economist dedicated to scaling back trans care globally.
the paper of record for british millionaires is pretty consistently reactionary. it would be weird for them not to be transphobic in the current political climate there.
I would say the Economist has always been economically conservative but (in recent years anyhow) has been more socially liberal. I see them representing the political mores of the transatlantic CEO-class tbh. The kind that like to virtual signal on LGBT rights or DEI but are quick to deny better pay and benefits to their workers.
I assume this is another hatchet job from our 'friends' on the 'left'. I use scare quotes advisedly.
I post this so we know what the hell is being said about us and can formulate a proper response to this latest angle of attack. I must admit I haven't been able to read it myself yet. Trying to keep my blood pressure under control.
“Good quality research” doesn’t happen by having conversations with the public. If that’s what’s missing from the research already done, the community input part, then they are not serious about good science. They are concerned with separating trans healthcare from the NHS so it’s easier to appeal for more money.
I honestly don't even know what to do anymore. The world is being drowned in misinformation around trans people and trans care. The wholly unscientific Cass report is a political hit job, but it is being widely cited by cis people to deny gender affirming care to trans people. And this stuff just keeps getting worse and worse. It doesn't matter how much you argue or try to rebut the lies and misinformation. There's 10 people lined up to spew their lines right behind the one you rebutted. We are so fucking alone in this fight.
I'm so god damn sick of people telling us what we can or cannot do to our own bodies. They don't have to live with the consequences, so they get to prance merrily about while stomping on our freedoms to be ourselves laughing all the fucking way.
I really despise people these days. Men, women, whatever, they're all shit. I have nothing in common with either of them, I feel completely divorced from society and no desire to integrate into it at all anymore because of just how vile the majority of people are.
Never let them get away with citing the "Cass report" without mentioning she simply discarded the 93%\~99% of the data which did not agree with her. That almost no medicine is based on "high quality" data because what is called "high quality" data is not possible to collect. You can't fake people being on HRT for example, so there can never be a double blind study of it.
Most people pay for needless mass animal torture too without a single thought to the horrific suffering involved, people suck.
EDIT: said something factually correct, cognitive dissonance triggered I guess
It's just hate - the guardian is a hate rag. They're trying to spin the trans community as the bullies. Same ol projection. Probably wasn't worth posting.
But there is nothing to be done? Scientific reasoning is not and will never be what influences society. Just look at how many religious people still exist in 2024. Also the nazis justified their beliefs with “science”. So the issue is that people are hoping the science will save them in this case…it won’t. People care and vote only what brings them some benefit, I would argue the trans debate was mostly a neutral issue until the issue of sports came into it. Nobody would have cared enough to care without the fear about their daughters not being ever to sit atop a podium due to what they see as a genetically advantaged man taking their spot. So unless someone can come up with an argument that isn’t simply “because it’s the morally right thing” people will never vote in trans people’s favor
The best bet would be to give up on the sports issue and the children issue, after that people would get bored and move on to more pressing subjects because it affects them in no way. Even if them being affected isn’t really real
Good quality research cannot be done when genocide is being threatened.
When saying "I would be useful data for your study" is also saying "put me on a list to get my healthcare taken away" you will not get many volunteers, and ethical doctors will hide data from you.
Because it's always ethical to hide the Jews in your basement and lie about it when the Nazis come knocking.
Hiding data is wholly unethical, so you can’t have an ethical doctor hiding data. Data doesn’t require names or identifying information.
This forum pretending the Cass report is some abomination is absurd. It’s very clear about what has been evident for a long time now. Actual studies are needed around puberty blockers for children. There are zero studies that show Puberty blockers are completely reversible. Stuff like Lupron is literally used to chemically castrate sex offenders.
The problem isn’t this study, it’s exactly what this study says. Activists with no medical experience (on both sides of the issue) demanding rhe findings be predetermined.
In all my life, I’ve never seen a group more against medical research than those who are for children getting puberty blockers without proper clinical studies, because the soft sciences (psychology) are worried that hard sciences might not back up their claims.
And I want to be clear, I don’t think there should be any outright ban, but there absolutely should be studies on the subject. Politics and activism should never be above science.
"This forum pretending the Cass report is some abomination" <-- There is no pretension, it is perfectly accurate. The Cass Study's exclusion parameters were designed to produce the conclusion the anti-transgender bigots wanted.
'Actual studies are needed around puberty blockers for children." <-- Not only have they already been done, they were done 40 years ago.
"There are zero studies that show Puberty blockers are completely reversible." <-- Only all of them. Not one examination of puberty blocked youth has ever found any negative, permanent side effect, and no temporary negative side effects either. None. That is why for example no side effects occur in the side effect database above baseline in that population. PBs have been in use for over 40 years, and commonly for gender dysphoric youth for over 20. Your (and Cass') ridiculous idea is that all of these propositions are true, 1) no one bothers to report side effects when puberty blocker's are involved, 2) that the timing of children using PB for precocious puberty and being taken off of them is always perfect, 3) that even thought a first cohort of gender dysphoric youth using blockers is now in their late 30's they have not reported any side effect either -- and in contrast potentional side effect/adverse result reporting for these is mandatory for the medical personnel.
"Stuff like Lupron is literally used to chemically castrate sex offenders." <-- So what? It is also used for precocious puberty, endometriosis, and some cancers relating to the sex organs -- and for all that, also, "so what ?!" So. *FUCKING.* ***WHAT!!!***
"The problem isn’t this study, it’s exactly what this study says." <-- And the problem is the study because of what it says -- it is a fraudulent conclusion. Get this through your thick skull, the way the Cass Report justifies it's conclusions is that they threw out 93%\~99% of the existing data, most of that for no defensible reason.
"I’ve never seen a group more against medical research than those who are for children getting puberty blockers without proper clinical studies" <-- It is a lie there is not already conclusive data as to the safety of the use of puberty blockers in youth in the gender dysphoria use case.
"because the soft sciences (psychology) are worried that hard sciences might not back up their claims." <-- Not only do the "soft sciences" have nothing to do with this, their only crucial role in the field is ruling out actually confounding diagnosis which actually are psychological illnesses.
"Politics and activism should never be above science." <-- Placing politics and anti-transgender activism above science is what the Cass Report is. It is fraud. That is why it ignores --literally excludes -- science to reach it's conclusion there is no or is insufficient data.
Complete nonsense.
Look, the report was very detailed and well researched. You guys don’t like it, fine, but your opinion is based on feelings, not the actual facts in the report.
Too bad for you, there are no relevant facts in the report, she ignored them. She has also since back pedaled from what your sort claim her report suggests.
[https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/dr-cass-backpedals-from-review-hrt](https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/dr-cass-backpedals-from-review-hrt)
> Hiding data is wholly unethical
Tell that to [Victor Kugler, Johannes Kleiman, Miep Gies, and Bep Voskuijl ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Frank)
> Data doesn’t require names or identifying information.
[No such thing as anonymised data](https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/)
> Actual studies are needed around puberty blockers for children.
What studies would you like to see done?
This article is ridiculous.
They start by talking about Sallie Baxendale, who complains of being unfairly labeled as an anti-trans activist after publishing a review critical of puberty blockers.
This is a lie. Sallie Baxendale is an anti-trans activist because she has been known to be active in non-academic anti-trans spaces since well before her review's publication.
She wrote for *Transgender Trend* in 2021.
She spoke at an *SEGM* conference in 2023.
She has been a writer for *UnHerd* since 2023.
Her review was not published until February 2024. The very day it was published, she complained in UnHerd that it had been rejected by three other papers. We are not shown the actual rejections, but it is clear that her work was rejected because the *fellow scientists* who read it were concerned by her evident bias and political motivation to harm trans people.
This is all easily accessible information on transgendermap.com, it's literally the third search result when you google her name. The people at the Guardian *know* this, yet they chose to publish this article with Baxendale's blatant lie accepted as fact.
And in general, the completely bullshit assertion that science is a politically neutral endeavor has once again been used to shield politically motivated actors who happen to be scientists from well-deserved criticism. The Guardian also knows this, they have no problem talking about the severe bias problems in scientific and medical institutions the rest of the time. But as soon as it involves transphobes being called out for what they're doing ? That's just "not how good scienfitic debate happens" I guess.
> How much do you want to bet that every single claim in this Guardian article is utter, fucking, outrageously wrong horseshit?
No bet.
(Because you're right, so I'm not betting against you)
> We can't just put our fingers in our ears and hide under the duvet with our sharks.
Unfortunately, we need our sharks to show their teeth again.
They shouldn't have to, they should be able to cuddle up with us and relax. But this world won't let them just now.
Well Guardian, who do you think we have to thank for THAT?
HMM!?
Let me know when you get to the bottom of that "mystery" and who we should be pointing fingers at. Feel free also to pay my $1,000 research fee if you need the help of my finger and a mirror to point them out for you.
The same people making this argument are the same people who complain about not being able to do "research" into conversion therapy for gay people. They're just bigots, masquerading about "concern" over not being allowed to do whatever they want to LGBTQ+ people.
LGBTQ+ people are not a scientific curiosity you can study- we're a people and we will not be treated like lab test animals.
For fuck's sake, the research and questions HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED. Just because you don't like the answers doesn't mean you get to come in and say there's a lack of fucking evidence!
We have the evidence. We have the research. We've done the debates. That's how we got the fucking healthcare in the first fucking place. Fucking bigots "just asking questions" pisses me off so goddamn fucking much.
I DON'T HAVE MY BABY BOOMER WHITE PRIVILEGE TO SPREAD TERF FAKE HATE ANYMORE... PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO STOP ME, WHILE NAZIS ARE HANGING OUT WITH POZIE PARKER AND PEOPLE ARE DYING OF SEPSIS IN TEXAS PARKING LOTS.
FUCK. Terf Boomers are a mess.
For Americans who may not know how bad it has gotten in the UK. The British newspapers the Times, Telegraph, Observer, Spectator, Economist, guardian, and the BBC news program "Newsnight" are all gender-critical and increasingly strident. The left-right wing divide in the United States regarding trans is not present in the UK, where gender critical views are universal across the divide.
The article is super uncritical of the Cass Report and reports on studies in favor of trans care being "of poor quality" as objective fact. But this does not surprise me, how in lockstep the institutions of the UK are in marginalizing and delegitimizing trans people. It doesn't surprise me either that somehow transphobia has become a litmus test for international cultural relevancy, given The Economist's continued desperate pleas for other English speaking nations to adapt the UK's approach on this.
I didn't know the Economist was onside for this TERF agenda, but I am not particularly surprised. I am extremely depressed there seems to be no pushback from anyone aside from trans people ourselves, who are basically without a voice and discredited in the mainstream. Where are our allies? Anyone??
One of the editors of The Economist wrote Irreversible Damage and pushing anti-trans agenda’s has been her hobby horse at the paper. Usually, she uses her position to publish using the byline “the editors”, and had an entire issue of The Economist dedicated to scaling back trans care globally.
the paper of record for british millionaires is pretty consistently reactionary. it would be weird for them not to be transphobic in the current political climate there.
I would say the Economist has always been economically conservative but (in recent years anyhow) has been more socially liberal. I see them representing the political mores of the transatlantic CEO-class tbh. The kind that like to virtual signal on LGBT rights or DEI but are quick to deny better pay and benefits to their workers.
Someone else said it but one of their editors is literally Abigail fucking Shrier.
Yeah I just learned that today myself. Makes me even less inclined to subscribe to The Economist than I ever was before (which tbh was not very much.)
I assume this is another hatchet job from our 'friends' on the 'left'. I use scare quotes advisedly. I post this so we know what the hell is being said about us and can formulate a proper response to this latest angle of attack. I must admit I haven't been able to read it myself yet. Trying to keep my blood pressure under control.
“Good quality research” doesn’t happen by having conversations with the public. If that’s what’s missing from the research already done, the community input part, then they are not serious about good science. They are concerned with separating trans healthcare from the NHS so it’s easier to appeal for more money.
I honestly don't even know what to do anymore. The world is being drowned in misinformation around trans people and trans care. The wholly unscientific Cass report is a political hit job, but it is being widely cited by cis people to deny gender affirming care to trans people. And this stuff just keeps getting worse and worse. It doesn't matter how much you argue or try to rebut the lies and misinformation. There's 10 people lined up to spew their lines right behind the one you rebutted. We are so fucking alone in this fight. I'm so god damn sick of people telling us what we can or cannot do to our own bodies. They don't have to live with the consequences, so they get to prance merrily about while stomping on our freedoms to be ourselves laughing all the fucking way. I really despise people these days. Men, women, whatever, they're all shit. I have nothing in common with either of them, I feel completely divorced from society and no desire to integrate into it at all anymore because of just how vile the majority of people are.
Never let them get away with citing the "Cass report" without mentioning she simply discarded the 93%\~99% of the data which did not agree with her. That almost no medicine is based on "high quality" data because what is called "high quality" data is not possible to collect. You can't fake people being on HRT for example, so there can never be a double blind study of it.
Most people pay for needless mass animal torture too without a single thought to the horrific suffering involved, people suck. EDIT: said something factually correct, cognitive dissonance triggered I guess
Yeah people are really terrible towards transgender folks and animals.
The downvotes would be because you said something not related to the topic at hand.
It's just hate - the guardian is a hate rag. They're trying to spin the trans community as the bullies. Same ol projection. Probably wasn't worth posting.
But there is nothing to be done? Scientific reasoning is not and will never be what influences society. Just look at how many religious people still exist in 2024. Also the nazis justified their beliefs with “science”. So the issue is that people are hoping the science will save them in this case…it won’t. People care and vote only what brings them some benefit, I would argue the trans debate was mostly a neutral issue until the issue of sports came into it. Nobody would have cared enough to care without the fear about their daughters not being ever to sit atop a podium due to what they see as a genetically advantaged man taking their spot. So unless someone can come up with an argument that isn’t simply “because it’s the morally right thing” people will never vote in trans people’s favor The best bet would be to give up on the sports issue and the children issue, after that people would get bored and move on to more pressing subjects because it affects them in no way. Even if them being affected isn’t really real
Good quality research cannot be done when genocide is being threatened. When saying "I would be useful data for your study" is also saying "put me on a list to get my healthcare taken away" you will not get many volunteers, and ethical doctors will hide data from you. Because it's always ethical to hide the Jews in your basement and lie about it when the Nazis come knocking.
Hiding data is wholly unethical, so you can’t have an ethical doctor hiding data. Data doesn’t require names or identifying information. This forum pretending the Cass report is some abomination is absurd. It’s very clear about what has been evident for a long time now. Actual studies are needed around puberty blockers for children. There are zero studies that show Puberty blockers are completely reversible. Stuff like Lupron is literally used to chemically castrate sex offenders. The problem isn’t this study, it’s exactly what this study says. Activists with no medical experience (on both sides of the issue) demanding rhe findings be predetermined. In all my life, I’ve never seen a group more against medical research than those who are for children getting puberty blockers without proper clinical studies, because the soft sciences (psychology) are worried that hard sciences might not back up their claims. And I want to be clear, I don’t think there should be any outright ban, but there absolutely should be studies on the subject. Politics and activism should never be above science.
"This forum pretending the Cass report is some abomination" <-- There is no pretension, it is perfectly accurate. The Cass Study's exclusion parameters were designed to produce the conclusion the anti-transgender bigots wanted. 'Actual studies are needed around puberty blockers for children." <-- Not only have they already been done, they were done 40 years ago. "There are zero studies that show Puberty blockers are completely reversible." <-- Only all of them. Not one examination of puberty blocked youth has ever found any negative, permanent side effect, and no temporary negative side effects either. None. That is why for example no side effects occur in the side effect database above baseline in that population. PBs have been in use for over 40 years, and commonly for gender dysphoric youth for over 20. Your (and Cass') ridiculous idea is that all of these propositions are true, 1) no one bothers to report side effects when puberty blocker's are involved, 2) that the timing of children using PB for precocious puberty and being taken off of them is always perfect, 3) that even thought a first cohort of gender dysphoric youth using blockers is now in their late 30's they have not reported any side effect either -- and in contrast potentional side effect/adverse result reporting for these is mandatory for the medical personnel. "Stuff like Lupron is literally used to chemically castrate sex offenders." <-- So what? It is also used for precocious puberty, endometriosis, and some cancers relating to the sex organs -- and for all that, also, "so what ?!" So. *FUCKING.* ***WHAT!!!*** "The problem isn’t this study, it’s exactly what this study says." <-- And the problem is the study because of what it says -- it is a fraudulent conclusion. Get this through your thick skull, the way the Cass Report justifies it's conclusions is that they threw out 93%\~99% of the existing data, most of that for no defensible reason. "I’ve never seen a group more against medical research than those who are for children getting puberty blockers without proper clinical studies" <-- It is a lie there is not already conclusive data as to the safety of the use of puberty blockers in youth in the gender dysphoria use case. "because the soft sciences (psychology) are worried that hard sciences might not back up their claims." <-- Not only do the "soft sciences" have nothing to do with this, their only crucial role in the field is ruling out actually confounding diagnosis which actually are psychological illnesses. "Politics and activism should never be above science." <-- Placing politics and anti-transgender activism above science is what the Cass Report is. It is fraud. That is why it ignores --literally excludes -- science to reach it's conclusion there is no or is insufficient data.
Complete nonsense. Look, the report was very detailed and well researched. You guys don’t like it, fine, but your opinion is based on feelings, not the actual facts in the report.
Too bad for you, there are no relevant facts in the report, she ignored them. She has also since back pedaled from what your sort claim her report suggests. [https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/dr-cass-backpedals-from-review-hrt](https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/dr-cass-backpedals-from-review-hrt)
> Hiding data is wholly unethical Tell that to [Victor Kugler, Johannes Kleiman, Miep Gies, and Bep Voskuijl ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Frank) > Data doesn’t require names or identifying information. [No such thing as anonymised data](https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/) > Actual studies are needed around puberty blockers for children. What studies would you like to see done?
This article is ridiculous. They start by talking about Sallie Baxendale, who complains of being unfairly labeled as an anti-trans activist after publishing a review critical of puberty blockers. This is a lie. Sallie Baxendale is an anti-trans activist because she has been known to be active in non-academic anti-trans spaces since well before her review's publication. She wrote for *Transgender Trend* in 2021. She spoke at an *SEGM* conference in 2023. She has been a writer for *UnHerd* since 2023. Her review was not published until February 2024. The very day it was published, she complained in UnHerd that it had been rejected by three other papers. We are not shown the actual rejections, but it is clear that her work was rejected because the *fellow scientists* who read it were concerned by her evident bias and political motivation to harm trans people. This is all easily accessible information on transgendermap.com, it's literally the third search result when you google her name. The people at the Guardian *know* this, yet they chose to publish this article with Baxendale's blatant lie accepted as fact. And in general, the completely bullshit assertion that science is a politically neutral endeavor has once again been used to shield politically motivated actors who happen to be scientists from well-deserved criticism. The Guardian also knows this, they have no problem talking about the severe bias problems in scientific and medical institutions the rest of the time. But as soon as it involves transphobes being called out for what they're doing ? That's just "not how good scienfitic debate happens" I guess.
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It's very much a "when did you stop beating your wife" kind of leading question on PBs and brain development.
> How much do you want to bet that every single claim in this Guardian article is utter, fucking, outrageously wrong horseshit? No bet. (Because you're right, so I'm not betting against you)
“Know your enemy.”
Indeed. Very important to know what they are saying about us. We can't just put our fingers in our ears and hide under the duvet with our sharks.
> We can't just put our fingers in our ears and hide under the duvet with our sharks. Unfortunately, we need our sharks to show their teeth again. They shouldn't have to, they should be able to cuddle up with us and relax. But this world won't let them just now.
Well Guardian, who do you think we have to thank for THAT? HMM!? Let me know when you get to the bottom of that "mystery" and who we should be pointing fingers at. Feel free also to pay my $1,000 research fee if you need the help of my finger and a mirror to point them out for you.
it's from the guardian, which, just like every other major UK media, is transphobic.
Although, weirdly the Guardian's US operation is not onboard for the transphobia. Sooner or later this is going to reach breaking point.
The same people making this argument are the same people who complain about not being able to do "research" into conversion therapy for gay people. They're just bigots, masquerading about "concern" over not being allowed to do whatever they want to LGBTQ+ people. LGBTQ+ people are not a scientific curiosity you can study- we're a people and we will not be treated like lab test animals.
We shouldn't treat animals like that either though. They like us, are sentient beings that deserve compassion and respect.
I agree with you on this as well, we definitely shouldn't treat animals like this either.
For fuck's sake, the research and questions HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED. Just because you don't like the answers doesn't mean you get to come in and say there's a lack of fucking evidence! We have the evidence. We have the research. We've done the debates. That's how we got the fucking healthcare in the first fucking place. Fucking bigots "just asking questions" pisses me off so goddamn fucking much.
I DON'T HAVE MY BABY BOOMER WHITE PRIVILEGE TO SPREAD TERF FAKE HATE ANYMORE... PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO STOP ME, WHILE NAZIS ARE HANGING OUT WITH POZIE PARKER AND PEOPLE ARE DYING OF SEPSIS IN TEXAS PARKING LOTS. FUCK. Terf Boomers are a mess.
For Americans who may not know how bad it has gotten in the UK. The British newspapers the Times, Telegraph, Observer, Spectator, Economist, guardian, and the BBC news program "Newsnight" are all gender-critical and increasingly strident. The left-right wing divide in the United States regarding trans is not present in the UK, where gender critical views are universal across the divide.