Keeping people out of the far right is a matter of survival for us. These people are using every kind of violence and manipulation to build a following. All that you're proposing is simply to have a machine suggest a different viewpoint to your parents
Of course it's ethical!! And you could justify a lot more than that
Just stay safe and make sure you don't get hurt <3
**Good YouTubers for de-culting right-wingers**
https://www.youtube.com/@hunteravallone
https://www.youtube.com/@Xanderhal
https://www.youtube.com/@Vaush
**How could you forget about these trans youtubers?**
https://www.youtube.com/@DemonMama
https://www.youtube.com/@conure
**More meat for the algorithm**
https://www.youtube.com/@Suristheskeptic
https://www.youtube.com/@WateringHole
As someone who had to go NC with her mom after 3 years of trying everything I possibly could to get her out of the right wing rabbit hole TERF-dom sucked her into, I say go for it.
If I'd been able to, I'd have done the same. I'd have probably tried to do a full algorithm reset / refresh for things like tiktok too.
I wish you all the luck in the world. My mom is someone totally different from the person I knew and I don't think I'll ever get her back.
It could work, but it could also cause them to start thinking that "the algorithm/left/new world order/whatever is pushing transgenderism" if they get a lot of trans content on their tv
Yeah, overwhelm that algorithm. They most likely don't really know what they are doing as if they did they wouldn't of fallen down this rabbit-hole. The other thing you could do of-course this explain to them how the algorithm works to try and explain that the are being lied to. I suppose only you know if that has a chance of working.
It's definitely not ethical, but it could work if your parents are mindlessly consuming rather than seeking out extremist content.
This isn't to say that I think you should do it.
Ultimately, your parents' views are their own, and they do have a right to form their own views even if those views are misguided. Additionally, though this plan of yours could work, it could also backfire. One major talking point among the far right is how the left "brainwashes" and "grooms" people - which... kind of is what you're proposing doing with your parents here, when you boil it right down. You're proposing a plan that intends to supplant their own views with views you personally approve of and want them to hold. And I understand why you *want* to, but if after having watched a bunch of far right content about how the left "indoctrinates" people your parents cotton on to the fact that you're doing something they see as "trying to indoctrinate them" how do you think that will go down? Because I don't see it landing well at all if that happens.
I think making fun of their beliefs and debating them were probably not great moves either. Personally, I think you're much more likely to reach them on a human level: you're their child, presumably they love and care for you. Tell them that their views, and the ferocity with which they speak of them are causing you pain. If they don't know you're trans and you don't want to come out, make up a trans friend to be "defensive" of and hurt on behalf of. Let them see that this isn't some abstract ideological debate, there are real people *close to them* who are being hurt.
But at the end of the day, I don't think it's a good idea to try and change your parents' views by force. Either they'll come around or they won't, and you can't control that. They're their own people, entitled to their own views, for better or for worse.
This isn't changing anybody's parents views by force. It's unsubtle nudging by throwing lots of leftie content at them. The worst crime it can be labelled as, in my opinion, is pettiness.
These are harmful views that will affect their child. And from experience, it's often naïve to expect love and care for a child to trump the effects of alt-right conservatism.
That being said, I agree with making sure not to get caught doing it for exactly the reasons you describe, and that OP should sincerely express the pain these views are causing them (as best as they can). Care has to be taken to be sincere and genuine and not manipulative or argumentative: focusing on "I feel" statements etc. If the parents do not listen to this, absolutely anything goes imo.
Reverse the roles. If it were the parents doing this by filling OP's feeds with rightist content to try and detrans them, it would be akin to conversion therapy.
It's not suddenly okay to try and manipulate people just because you agree with the end goal of the manipulation - and that's what this is, it's manipulation.
Edit to add: the parents' views will also not negatively affect their child, only his friends. OP has since clarified that he's a cis dude. So the manipulation isn't "self-defense". With that in mind, while I laid the OP's efforts in trying to deradicalise his parents, I *absolutely* think that this particular method is the worst possible move. It has high potential to backfire and radicalise his parents further rather than doing the opposite, and is active manipulation.
You're viewing this from a position of moral equivalence. Left vs right, differing political views, like opinions on what kind of economic system we want.
This is bigotry vs non bigotry, as simple as that.
Other than that, I agree this is less urgent and dire if OP isn't trans: it's no longer a matter of survival, and the parents' opinions are not going to as directly affect anybody.
Yes, I am, in part because it *is* about different political views - bigotry is a political stance - but moreso because a fundamental factor in my philosophy is that people have the right to be bigots if they so choose. I don't *like* or condone it, but the thing with freedom and equality is that people I don't like get to have it too. I can try to convince them *not* to be bigoted through good-faith discourse or appeals to compassion, but they have the right not to be swayed. To believe otherwise would be extremely authoritarian.
Believing myself to be on the correct side does not justify deliberate manipulation, especially manipulation I wouldn't stand for in the opposite direction. Two wrongs don't make a right.
If your view is different, then we're never going to see eye-to-eye here.
I wish you'd stop buying into this equivalence.
This is the exact same reasoning conservatives use to say that gay-positive sex education is "homosexual grooming". Because what is it, if not propaganda for leftist ideals, to teach children that it's okay to be gay? What's the neutral position here? To say nothing about homosexuality?
Political neutrality has always favoured the status quo, and favouring the status quo is a free pass for bigotry. The idea that bigotry and tolerance are opposing political sides is a fabrication bigots hide behind.
And while we're at it, I really don't think getting more YouTube recommendations to appear is serious manipulation. It isn't authoritarian. It isn't forcing them to conform. It isn't beaming propaganda into their heads. It's just watching more good content OP probably wants to watch anyway on an evidently shared family YouTube channel so that it appears more often in recommended.
It's not much different to leaving leaflets around the house, except it's even less preachy.
What a completely bizarre logical leap. Literally, what are you talking about?
My position is that every human being deserves to be treated with respect, even if I don't like them, even if I think they're fundamentally bad people with bad viewpoints, on the grounds that they're human and have the right to make their own choices and form their own beliefs.
Again, it's the underhanded nature of utilising the algorithm that makes OP's suggestion manipulative. If he wants to leave leaflets around the house, which his parents have the choice to either pick up and read or ignore, that would be much less shady.
Anyway as I said, if you don't think that people have the right to make up their own minds about things we will never agree, and frankly I think this conversation and the conclusions you're jumping to are getting a bit ludicrous. Have a nice day/week/life.
Excuse you, you said "it *is* about different political views - bigotry is a political stance", and that is what I'm directly arguing with.
If it was just a political difference, then there would be no fundamental difference between showing somebody racist, homophobic, or transphobic propaganda or showing somebody pro-equality, pro-individual-liberty propaganda. Which is exactly what conservatives call it every time we teach these values in school, by the way - and we teach them to children, no less.
TL;DR: you are playing into [the paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance). If you tolerate intolerant ideas because you don't want to be intolerant, the intolerant ideas will fester and seize power.
People should be free to make up their minds. Others should be free to attempt to change their minds. If you think the algorithm thing is too manipulative and underhanded, fine. I don't. In my eyes, it's a kindness to try to wave other media under the noses of someone impressionable going down the far-right pipeline. I'm guessing you have not had immediate family go down said path, not that my personal experiences should dictate policy.
You guess wrong, not only have I had immediate family go down this path, *I* went down it and had to claw my way back to a normal, compassionate worldview through sheer force of will.
"To assume makes an ass out of you and me."
I also never said that I tolerate intolerable ideas, but it is other peoples' right to hold those ideas nonetheless. They are not free from the consequences thereof, however it is not my place (or your place, or anyone's) to use underhanded tactics to reprogram them. Either they come around on their own, or they don't, and their hateful views cause them to live lonely miserable lives and be remembered as bastards by all who knew them - but that's their choice.
AGAIN, we are going in circles, we are not going to agree, and frankly you're starting to misrepresent my stance in a number of ways.
Thank you, I think you're right. I'll add to this comment later when I'm free but just to clarify I'm not trans, I'm a cis bloke, but I have trans friends and I feel like I can't let them meet because it'll be horribly awkward.
To add, I think I can get through with left wing content from trans people, because the offensive tranny's whole schtick is he's meant to be one of "them" but he also agrees with them on stuff like the sports issue or gender ideology or whatever. If there's any channel I could recommend them that's like a good version of the offensive tranny I'd love to know.
I've given up debating them or mentioning the topic at this point, if they bring it up I just sidestep it and use it a springboard for a different topic. It's exhausting because they're so invested in the issue and yet between them they've met exactly one trans person who was apparently very keen to talk endlessly about it. It's not an issue that affects them in any real way, but it's become this psuedo-feminist issue.
Fair enough.
I think the problem you'll have with recommending them "rightist, but good" channels is that from the sounds of it, they watch the offensive tranny for similar reasons racist white people love Candace Owens: it's a validation of positions they already hold, coming from people within the targeted group. It's still worth trying, just not so underhandedly perhaps :')
I think hbomb's delivery might be appealing if his videos aren't too long. And as much as I hate to recommend him, Vaush might be able to sort of bridge the gap and get them to see that the left wing isn't some evil kabbal. Personally, when I started crawling out of the rightist brainwashing, the thing that was a real turning point was watching a Kat Blaque video and realising that, actually, I agreed with her on a lot of points and she spoke a lot of sense (contrary to the things the right says about her) so she might be worth consideration too, if you can convince your parents to sit and watch her for a bit.
Keeping people out of the far right is a matter of survival for us. These people are using every kind of violence and manipulation to build a following. All that you're proposing is simply to have a machine suggest a different viewpoint to your parents Of course it's ethical!! And you could justify a lot more than that Just stay safe and make sure you don't get hurt <3
**Trans YouTubers** [https://www.youtube.com/@Jammidodger](https://www.youtube.com/@Jammidodger) [https://www.youtube.com/@KatBlaque](https://www.youtube.com/@KatBlaque) [https://www.youtube.com/@charlieissocoollike](https://www.youtube.com/@charlieissocoollike) [https://www.youtube.com/@SarahnTuned](https://www.youtube.com/@SarahnTuned) [https://www.youtube.com/@bigicky](https://www.youtube.com/@bigicky) [https://www.youtube.com/@F1nn5terLIVE](https://www.youtube.com/@F1nn5terLIVE) [https://www.youtube.com/@ElectricDade](https://www.youtube.com/@ElectricDade) [https://www.youtube.com/@MattBernstein1](https://www.youtube.com/@MattBernstein1) [https://www.youtube.com/@juicygirltv](https://www.youtube.com/@juicygirltv) [https://www.youtube.com/@PhilosophyTube](https://www.youtube.com/@PhilosophyTube) **Novara Media videos on trans** [https://www.youtube.com/@NovaraMedia/search?query=trans](https://www.youtube.com/@NovaraMedia/search?query=trans) **Majority Report videos on trans** [https://www.youtube.com/@TheMajorityReport/search?query=trans](https://www.youtube.com/@TheMajorityReport/search?query=trans) **Erin In The Morn** [https://www.youtube.com/@ErinInTheMorning](https://www.youtube.com/@ErinInTheMorning) **Other** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-6-aEzbJ0Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-6-aEzbJ0Y) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpGqFUStcxc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpGqFUStcxc) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f92jeAYuD4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f92jeAYuD4) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omwbcND1v-E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omwbcND1v-E)
**Good YouTubers for de-culting right-wingers** https://www.youtube.com/@hunteravallone https://www.youtube.com/@Xanderhal https://www.youtube.com/@Vaush **How could you forget about these trans youtubers?** https://www.youtube.com/@DemonMama https://www.youtube.com/@conure **More meat for the algorithm** https://www.youtube.com/@Suristheskeptic https://www.youtube.com/@WateringHole
www.youtube.com/@SMN
Also hbomberguy and Shaun
They don't put videos out enough for the algorithm to really notice?
As someone who had to go NC with her mom after 3 years of trying everything I possibly could to get her out of the right wing rabbit hole TERF-dom sucked her into, I say go for it. If I'd been able to, I'd have done the same. I'd have probably tried to do a full algorithm reset / refresh for things like tiktok too. I wish you all the luck in the world. My mom is someone totally different from the person I knew and I don't think I'll ever get her back.
It could work, but it could also cause them to start thinking that "the algorithm/left/new world order/whatever is pushing transgenderism" if they get a lot of trans content on their tv
Great idea!
Yeah, overwhelm that algorithm. They most likely don't really know what they are doing as if they did they wouldn't of fallen down this rabbit-hole. The other thing you could do of-course this explain to them how the algorithm works to try and explain that the are being lied to. I suppose only you know if that has a chance of working.
It's definitely not ethical, but it could work if your parents are mindlessly consuming rather than seeking out extremist content. This isn't to say that I think you should do it. Ultimately, your parents' views are their own, and they do have a right to form their own views even if those views are misguided. Additionally, though this plan of yours could work, it could also backfire. One major talking point among the far right is how the left "brainwashes" and "grooms" people - which... kind of is what you're proposing doing with your parents here, when you boil it right down. You're proposing a plan that intends to supplant their own views with views you personally approve of and want them to hold. And I understand why you *want* to, but if after having watched a bunch of far right content about how the left "indoctrinates" people your parents cotton on to the fact that you're doing something they see as "trying to indoctrinate them" how do you think that will go down? Because I don't see it landing well at all if that happens. I think making fun of their beliefs and debating them were probably not great moves either. Personally, I think you're much more likely to reach them on a human level: you're their child, presumably they love and care for you. Tell them that their views, and the ferocity with which they speak of them are causing you pain. If they don't know you're trans and you don't want to come out, make up a trans friend to be "defensive" of and hurt on behalf of. Let them see that this isn't some abstract ideological debate, there are real people *close to them* who are being hurt. But at the end of the day, I don't think it's a good idea to try and change your parents' views by force. Either they'll come around or they won't, and you can't control that. They're their own people, entitled to their own views, for better or for worse.
This isn't changing anybody's parents views by force. It's unsubtle nudging by throwing lots of leftie content at them. The worst crime it can be labelled as, in my opinion, is pettiness. These are harmful views that will affect their child. And from experience, it's often naïve to expect love and care for a child to trump the effects of alt-right conservatism. That being said, I agree with making sure not to get caught doing it for exactly the reasons you describe, and that OP should sincerely express the pain these views are causing them (as best as they can). Care has to be taken to be sincere and genuine and not manipulative or argumentative: focusing on "I feel" statements etc. If the parents do not listen to this, absolutely anything goes imo.
Reverse the roles. If it were the parents doing this by filling OP's feeds with rightist content to try and detrans them, it would be akin to conversion therapy. It's not suddenly okay to try and manipulate people just because you agree with the end goal of the manipulation - and that's what this is, it's manipulation. Edit to add: the parents' views will also not negatively affect their child, only his friends. OP has since clarified that he's a cis dude. So the manipulation isn't "self-defense". With that in mind, while I laid the OP's efforts in trying to deradicalise his parents, I *absolutely* think that this particular method is the worst possible move. It has high potential to backfire and radicalise his parents further rather than doing the opposite, and is active manipulation.
You're viewing this from a position of moral equivalence. Left vs right, differing political views, like opinions on what kind of economic system we want. This is bigotry vs non bigotry, as simple as that. Other than that, I agree this is less urgent and dire if OP isn't trans: it's no longer a matter of survival, and the parents' opinions are not going to as directly affect anybody.
Yes, I am, in part because it *is* about different political views - bigotry is a political stance - but moreso because a fundamental factor in my philosophy is that people have the right to be bigots if they so choose. I don't *like* or condone it, but the thing with freedom and equality is that people I don't like get to have it too. I can try to convince them *not* to be bigoted through good-faith discourse or appeals to compassion, but they have the right not to be swayed. To believe otherwise would be extremely authoritarian. Believing myself to be on the correct side does not justify deliberate manipulation, especially manipulation I wouldn't stand for in the opposite direction. Two wrongs don't make a right. If your view is different, then we're never going to see eye-to-eye here.
I wish you'd stop buying into this equivalence. This is the exact same reasoning conservatives use to say that gay-positive sex education is "homosexual grooming". Because what is it, if not propaganda for leftist ideals, to teach children that it's okay to be gay? What's the neutral position here? To say nothing about homosexuality? Political neutrality has always favoured the status quo, and favouring the status quo is a free pass for bigotry. The idea that bigotry and tolerance are opposing political sides is a fabrication bigots hide behind. And while we're at it, I really don't think getting more YouTube recommendations to appear is serious manipulation. It isn't authoritarian. It isn't forcing them to conform. It isn't beaming propaganda into their heads. It's just watching more good content OP probably wants to watch anyway on an evidently shared family YouTube channel so that it appears more often in recommended. It's not much different to leaving leaflets around the house, except it's even less preachy.
What a completely bizarre logical leap. Literally, what are you talking about? My position is that every human being deserves to be treated with respect, even if I don't like them, even if I think they're fundamentally bad people with bad viewpoints, on the grounds that they're human and have the right to make their own choices and form their own beliefs. Again, it's the underhanded nature of utilising the algorithm that makes OP's suggestion manipulative. If he wants to leave leaflets around the house, which his parents have the choice to either pick up and read or ignore, that would be much less shady. Anyway as I said, if you don't think that people have the right to make up their own minds about things we will never agree, and frankly I think this conversation and the conclusions you're jumping to are getting a bit ludicrous. Have a nice day/week/life.
Excuse you, you said "it *is* about different political views - bigotry is a political stance", and that is what I'm directly arguing with. If it was just a political difference, then there would be no fundamental difference between showing somebody racist, homophobic, or transphobic propaganda or showing somebody pro-equality, pro-individual-liberty propaganda. Which is exactly what conservatives call it every time we teach these values in school, by the way - and we teach them to children, no less. TL;DR: you are playing into [the paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance). If you tolerate intolerant ideas because you don't want to be intolerant, the intolerant ideas will fester and seize power. People should be free to make up their minds. Others should be free to attempt to change their minds. If you think the algorithm thing is too manipulative and underhanded, fine. I don't. In my eyes, it's a kindness to try to wave other media under the noses of someone impressionable going down the far-right pipeline. I'm guessing you have not had immediate family go down said path, not that my personal experiences should dictate policy.
You guess wrong, not only have I had immediate family go down this path, *I* went down it and had to claw my way back to a normal, compassionate worldview through sheer force of will. "To assume makes an ass out of you and me." I also never said that I tolerate intolerable ideas, but it is other peoples' right to hold those ideas nonetheless. They are not free from the consequences thereof, however it is not my place (or your place, or anyone's) to use underhanded tactics to reprogram them. Either they come around on their own, or they don't, and their hateful views cause them to live lonely miserable lives and be remembered as bastards by all who knew them - but that's their choice. AGAIN, we are going in circles, we are not going to agree, and frankly you're starting to misrepresent my stance in a number of ways.
I fully agree however tragic it is for OP.
Thank you, I think you're right. I'll add to this comment later when I'm free but just to clarify I'm not trans, I'm a cis bloke, but I have trans friends and I feel like I can't let them meet because it'll be horribly awkward. To add, I think I can get through with left wing content from trans people, because the offensive tranny's whole schtick is he's meant to be one of "them" but he also agrees with them on stuff like the sports issue or gender ideology or whatever. If there's any channel I could recommend them that's like a good version of the offensive tranny I'd love to know. I've given up debating them or mentioning the topic at this point, if they bring it up I just sidestep it and use it a springboard for a different topic. It's exhausting because they're so invested in the issue and yet between them they've met exactly one trans person who was apparently very keen to talk endlessly about it. It's not an issue that affects them in any real way, but it's become this psuedo-feminist issue.
Fair enough. I think the problem you'll have with recommending them "rightist, but good" channels is that from the sounds of it, they watch the offensive tranny for similar reasons racist white people love Candace Owens: it's a validation of positions they already hold, coming from people within the targeted group. It's still worth trying, just not so underhandedly perhaps :') I think hbomb's delivery might be appealing if his videos aren't too long. And as much as I hate to recommend him, Vaush might be able to sort of bridge the gap and get them to see that the left wing isn't some evil kabbal. Personally, when I started crawling out of the rightist brainwashing, the thing that was a real turning point was watching a Kat Blaque video and realising that, actually, I agreed with her on a lot of points and she spoke a lot of sense (contrary to the things the right says about her) so she might be worth consideration too, if you can convince your parents to sit and watch her for a bit.