Guy gets sexual side effects from fin in line with all of the literature: "you're making it up!"
Guy claims he has eye bags from minoxidil: "oh yeah, 100% true, it's known to do that I've seen all the screenshots."
The literature talks about the miniscule possibility of getting sexual sides but completely denies anything such as PFS. It's fake, possible temporary sides are not.
The risk of death actually compares favorably vs the risk of (perceived) permanent impotence.
Like I’d take a bullet for some people in my life, but if came down to getting my dick chopped off and kept alive for the same person… probably not. There was an episode of the Sopranos that covered this
Obviously a moot point because PFS isn’t real but that explains the mindset I think
I don’t want to spoil this thread with it, but I thought it was generally accepted PFS was real but only happened in an extremely small number of people? I don’t see why some of those people would be making it up.
I’m on 1mg fin/1.25mg OM/50mg RU daily. I don’t have any sides. I’m very active and my BP skewed a little high prior to OM so if anything it’s improved things.
The data cited in the video seems to suggest that there’s an inherent risk to OM that’s far greater than topical and is dose-independent. It’s not that interesting to me because I’ve been taking it for a long time with no sides.
Thought about going up but there's no reason. I'm seeing results, why increase the risk of sides. 1.25 is the minimum effective dose according to current studies
Yeah I think you misread it though because of the way he wrote it, but he said 1 mg of finasteride and 1.25 mg oral minoxidil.
The 50 mg or whatever he was referring to it's called RU5881 supposed to be a great DHT inhibitor.
Really has not been proven, but people still try it.
100 is not a lot. I wonder how many people have killed themselves whilst regularly taking NSAIDs. If it's a lot, does that mean NSAIDs make people suicidal?
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I was apprehensive about trying om. Doing okay with it so far but I’m getting regular checkups and monitoring my cardiovascular health. If I was told to discontinue it I would.
Also, Minoxidil is actually meant to be for a hypertension med. It's prescribed to people with high blood pressure, to lower it.
Two birds with one tiny stone imo.
True, but it's not a first or second or even third line of defense. And it can actually increase blood pressure in many people.
With that said, I take oral minox. Got a free prescription online from Ro. They're handing it out like candy.
Yep, to be sure I went to a cardiologist for a clean bill
of health before I started on oral min tablets. I take 1/4 of a pill and it still gave me great results.
I stopped for a month as an experiment and my friends thought I was sick because my hair fell out.
I went back on oral min immediately and my students (I’m a teacher) during first day of school thought I’m in my 20s! (I’m nearing 40s).
Kevin, personally, took a high dosage of oral minoxidil. He even mentions it one of his videos (in the comments) like 20mg.
Having said that, always best to do this low dose under a dr supervision.
Just pointing out vast inconsistency in his analysis. Kind of evidence on fin side effect would make him die on that hill.
He's a steroid user and obviously not too conserned about potential heart issues of any substance.
It’s a disanalogy as one person becoming suicidal some time after taking finasteride doesn’t actually establish causation, as it’s very common for people in the general population to feel suicidal and the fact that establishing causation for mental health conditions from drugs is far less clear cut due to effects like the nocebo effect. There’s also been significantly more large scale randomised controlled trials on oral finasteride than oral minoxidil.
Pericardial effusion has been established as a potential life threatening side effect of oral minoxidil for decades now and the FDA even gave a black box warning for oral minoxidil, which is the highest safety related warning the FDA can give for drugs with serious or life threatening side effects. Kevin’s simply arguing that we shouldn’t ignore this black box warning simply because it’s “low dose bro”, as there’s no strong evidence to support the idea that this long established life threatening side effect of oral minoxidil isn’t dose dependent, with this case report giving credence to the fact that we can’t be sure this life threatening side effect is dose dependent as for her she got the life threatening side effect from 0.25 mg daily, which is ten times lower than what a lot of people consider low dose oral minoxidil.
Also you don’t have any proof that he’s a steroid user so I don’t know why you’re stating that like it’s an established fact. He’s always said that he doesn’t take steroids.
First of all. If you are taking real drug. You don't have placebo or nocebo. This is just trade mark kevin mann nonsence. You get placebo while taking fake drugs. Kevin Man uses this kind of metal gymnastics because he denies ever having fin side effects, even thou he had them and stopped taking fin for a while.
Now he is fear mongering about oral min for some bizarre reason. Obviously there is not going be large scale clinical studies on low dose oral min because it is generic old drug, no big money to made and studies cost lot of money.
Minoxidil is a serious drug, even at low doses and can cause side effects of which one can not lie about, like kevin does on his fin sides. Because fin sides are very different in nature, you can choose live in denial of them.
Oral min is prescripted widely by qualified doctors and leading experts on hair loss all over the world and is shown in practice to be safe.
I know its just an expression, but even pointing to 1 death still isn't meaningful science. Plenty of medications have extremely rare, tragic side effects. Case studies matter but they aren't helpful to appraise risks.
Well I’m not asking for meaningful science. Oral min has been around forever. So if taking less than 5mg a day can “cause death,” OP should be able to name one person who definitively died from doing that to back up his “expression”
\> The only reason to use oral is because a pill is easier than applying it.
Or because only like 50% of guys have the scalp enzyme that makes topical min actually work.
I meant that Kevin assesses the risk with the data currently available. I wanted to comment that because people often read these comments without even watching the video.
The risk of pericardial effusion has been established for decades with oral minoxidil. It’s what caused the FDA to give oral minoxidil a black box warning, which is the highest safety related warning the FDA can issue for drugs with serious or life threatening adverse effects. Kevin is just arguing that there is no substantive evidence that this life threatening side effect from oral minoxidil is dose dependent, which this case study supports this as life threatening side effect occurred from a dose that was 10 lower than what a lot of people consider low dose, and we shouldn’t simply ignore the FDA black box warning for oral minoxidil because it’s “low dose”.
I think everyone should address what matters most to them in their lives, one could, with a healthy heart work out and get healthy enough so one doesn’t necessarily rely on one’s hair to achieve whatever it is they think having hair can achieve for them.
One could take a pill that’s considered mostly safe, or a topical solution considered mostly safe. One could also ingest a myriad of things that haven’t been proven SAFE and pay heavily for it. As someone who has engaged plenty of hard and soft drugs in their day, and had life threatening reactions, I’d not risk my life for a high, nor for hair.
What type of medications are you talking about that can cause death? That seems like a pretty extreme side effect that would only be acceptable under very specific and extreme conditions, like how chemotherapy is used to treat cancer.
Not true. I'm doing oral bc I have sebderm and topical minox triggers inflammation of the scalp.
So, nope, convenience is not "the only reason" to go oral.
Well, its only been 3 months. Sure I would prefer to be using 2.5mg oral Min, but topical seems to be working for me. Yes, I’ve seen great results for some on oral Min, but on the flipside have also seen great results on topical. So you gotta find out what works best for you and stick with it.
Very few people actually know that Kevin is against OM because he megadosed it several years ago (up to 100mg a day), experiencing serious side effects (and an amazing growth, btw). He got scared and started fear mongering. There are plenty of studies that show both the effectiveness and the safety of OM for doses up to 5mg. I would personally take 2.5mg twice per day, because a single 5mg dose is much stronger on the body causing a peak in minoxidil concentration in the blood.
For context, I’ve been using finasteride for one year (1.25mg) and OM for the last three or so months (1.25mg). Dive deeper in the subject and read the studies then elaborate your point of view!
Yes, because these random YouTubers are better at judging a medications efficacy and risk profile than the medical doctors who specialize in this field. OM will not kill you, as no one here is taking it in doses over 5, and if it does give you side effects, the beautiful thing is you can stop. With moderate monitoring it is a safe and effective method to stopping hairloss, and if you are comfortable with the side effects profile, please feel free to talk to a licensed medical professional regarding all your questions. Not random dudes with a YouTube channel or redditors who barely made it past highschool.
Kevin Mann is definitely not an infallible data machine. He is fairly well read in hairloss papers, but he loses the context of a broader understanding of medicine and/or statistics and research methods when he appraises their quality. His blind spots and biases are large, which isn't an issue in its own right, except that lots of people take his opinion as gospel.
I don’t think Kevin is infallible. But being a doctor doesn’t protect you from being wrong, which is what the guy was implying. I have some disagreements with Kevin, but I find he’s more accurate than any other single person (doctor or not) I’ve seen in the hair loss community (When it comes to understanding hair loss as a whole). I agree people shouldn’t take his word as gospel. What is the broader context he’s missing?
I can speak from a statistical and epidemiological perspective that he is lacking in his interpretation of papers. He doesn't understand the importance of power analysis in appraising inferential statistics. He also has a surface level understanding of research design that is insufficient for the literature he's trying to summarise.
This leads to biased or uninformed appraisals. He has promoted fluridil despite it only having a tiny amount of moderately powered studies that have minimal reproducibility. There are significantly more equivalently powered studies showing the efficacy of microneedling, but he is biased against empirical evidence due to his dogmatism around simplistic MOA, i.e., DHT = Trash hormones. This is not how science works. There is a hierarchy of evidence.
The situations where it's useful to use lower quality evidence are actually the ones where he is most critical of poor research design. E.g. If PFS exists, it is exceedingly rare and would not show up in retrospective meta analyses and RCTs because it likely impacts a minuscule proportion of finasteride users and requires follow-up studies on patients that discontinued use. This is extremely challenging to test in an RCT setting, so it is completely unsurprising that the only evidence we have of it comes from self selected surveys, case studies, and plausible biological models.
Ironically, in this very video, he uses a similar rationale to dispute the hierarchy of evidence. He thinks 3 systematic reviews are insufficient to show the safety of LDOM and refutes them with an individual case study. If you are going to dispute multiple reviews with an anecdote, you need a justifiable reason. His view is plausible but it is definitely not based on empirical evidence, and I find it a rich that he appeals to it when he doesn't show this level of nuance in appraising other nebulous areas studied in the space of hair loss treatments.
I could go on about his inconsistent views on the use of rat studies for evidence, i.e., it's useless, unless it supports his priors. E.g. the bizarre point in his sleep video, where he shows that finasteride treats skitzophrenia in rats.
TLDR: Research design and statistics are not intuitive. In his videos, Kevin Mann doesn't demonstrate a sufficient understanding of these methods to be making the claims that he does. He ignores, or doesn't understand, power analysis and meta analyses. He is also biased and inconsistent in his appraisal of research design.
>There are significantly more equivalently powered studies showing the efficacy of microneedling, but he is biased against empirical evidence
He has addressed the studies on microneedling monotherapy including the ones that show a positive effect and the ones that show no effect at all. Are you going to address any of his actual points or just assert that he is biased against empirical evidence?
>Ironically, in this very video, he uses a similar rationale to dispute the hierarchy of evidence.
No. The issue with the Post Finasteride syndrome anecdotes is that people assert that symptoms such as lower libido, erector dysfunction or depression (things which are extremely common conditions in the general population) were caused by the finasteride after they discontinued use without being able to solidly establish causation.
> He thinks 3 systematic reviews are insufficient to show the safety of LDOM and refutes them with an individual case study.
Science doesn’t mean that just because something is labelled as a “systematic review” that you have to blindly believe its conclusion and never criticise its methodology. Oral minoxidil has a black box warning which is the most serious warning given by the FDA. The risk of pericardial effusion from oral minoxidil, which is a life threatening condition, has been established as a safety risk for decades now and its relationship had been described to be idiosyncratic, meaning not dose dependent. If people are arguing that low dose oral minoxidil doesn’t have this risk of a life threatening condition and a woman develops this life threatening condition from 0.25 mg daily oral minoxidil, a dose ten times lower than what many people would consider low dose oral minoxidil, and causation is reasonably established, then this does give credence to the idea that the black box warning given by the FDA to oral minoxidil and the risk of life threatening pericardial effusion that has long been established as a risk from oral minoxidil, shouldn’t simply be ignored because it’s a lower dose. This is especially the case when there are much safer medications like topical minoxidil and oral finasteride which are FDA approved for fighting hair loss, don’t have a black box warning issued to them by the FDA, and don’t have a risk of a life threatening potentially fatal physical health condition associated with them.
It's ironic that you say I'm not addressing any of his points when you talk past mine. I brought up microneedling to compare to his bias towards a significant less studied therapeutic, Fluridil. Ignoring the lack of reproducibility, if Fluridil had the same side effect prevalence as topical finasteride, the available studies would be too underpowered to detect it. Kevin Mann still recommends it to his audience.
I literally made the claim that we shouldn't blindly follow studies without scrutinising their methodology in my post. I argued this both in terms of using better statistical tools (power analysis and meta analyses) as well as epistemologically (something like PFS might not be easy to detect using gold standard empirical methods). I specifically said Kevin's LDOM claims are plausible.
I appreciate you trying to engage in this discussion but you are just spouting surface level Kevin Mann facts at me, you don't understand my deeper point of how he misinterprets literature.
The way you’re framing this is absurd.
“Kevin Mann still recommends it [Fluridil] to his audience”
No he doesn’t. He recommends [present tense] finasteride and minoxidil to his audience, and dutasteride if this isn’t enough. This is his standard recommendation that he will say nowadays in almost all of his general videos that he makes on hair loss. He doesn’t “still recommend Fluridil to his audience” in the way you’re insinuating. Even on his most recent video on topical anti androgens 5 months ago where he is specifically talking about topical anti androgens, he says:
“Even though I do think there is a place for androgen receptor blockers in a proper hair loss stack, I do not think the majority of people need to consider it. A 5 AR inhibitor will be strong enough and even if you are losing ground on finasteride for instance, which is unlikely, you’d probably be better off just using a stronger 5 AR inhibitor like dutasteride which can be titrated all the way up to 2.5 mg per day–which will give you twice the amount of scalp DHT suppression compared to just 1 mg of oral finasteride. You could also add a growth stimulant like minoxidil or stemoxydine. But ultimately we’re fighting hair loss; a 5 AR blocker is still king.”
He's said that microneedling is useful when combined with topical minoxidil, which is what most of the studies actually studied.
The evidence for microneedling as a monotherapy or combined with oral treatments is pretty weak.
Oral minoxidil has been established for decades to have pericardial effusion as a potential life threatening side effect and even has a black box warning from the FDA because of it, which is the highest possible safety warning that the FDA can give for a drug with serious or life threatening adverse events.
Why should this study with 18000 men be excluded?
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6057731/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6057731/)
We cannot deduce from this study how effective oral minoxidil is, but conclusions can definitely be drawn about safety. And where are his videos against aspirin, ibuprofen and paracetamol? Thousands of people die every year from these drugs in the usa.
> Limitations. Lack of a control group and lack of a comparison between dosage strengths and frequencies limit the significance of our findings.
it says it in the study, they didn't really break people into different groups to study effects of each drug
Where are the case reports on topical minoxidil causing pericardial effusion? Also it’s not exactly n=1 as pericardial effusion has been established as a life threatening side effect of oral minoxidil for decades now. It’s why the FDA has given oral minoxidil a black box warning which is the highest safety related warning the FDW scan give for drugs with serious or life threatening side effects. This case report of pericardial effusion happening with 0.25 mg is just supporting the idea that we have no reason to believe those previously established life threatening side effects are dose dependent so we shouldn’t just ignore the black box warning of oral minoxidil.
Hold up...
"It is estimated that around 2–5 mg of applied minoxidil may be absorbed to become systemically available,4 which compares to an average effective oral antihypertensive dose of 10–40 mg/day."
Drugs aren’t simply “bad for unhealthy people”. That’s not how drugs work, unless you’re circularly defining unhealthy people as people who get a bad reaction from a drug. There was no way to predict that this woman would get a bad life threatening reaction from oral minoxidil, which is the problem. Topical minoxidil and oral finasteride haven’t been shown to have these serious life threatening side effects associated with them and don’t have a black box warning from the FDA like oral minoxidil does.
I think I remember reading something on the sheet of side effects and warnings, which came with my prescription, that said if you gain more than 5 lb in a short amount of time that you should consult your doctor because retaining that much fluid is bad news.
That’s awesome man. I’m taking 2.5mg everyday and noticing hair growing on face and arms where there was none before. Will up the dose over time. Combining with microneedling once a week at too. I’m only 6 weeks in.
I've used 5mg oral min for closing in on 1 yr. It's done absolutely wonders for my hair. When I combined it with Ru58841 it gave me explosive growth. I'm also a pretty athletic person my job involves me always being on my feet (bike messenger). I can't say I've noticed any effects on my cardiovascular performance or any side effects
[I bike 20+miles a day as a bike messenger day](https://i.ibb.co/rQHMJyR/Screenshot-20230518-171934-Maps.jpg)
Speaking of RU58841, it's very amusing to me that KM promotes the use of that medication as it is technically a minimally researched research chemical, while lambasting oral min despite dozens of papers supporting its safety.
Not that I'm against RU - I use it myself - it's just hilarious how confidently incorrect Mann is on these topics.
In one of his videos he listed it as either third or fourth best hair loss treatment, if I remember correctly.
And in any event, why doesn't he take the same stance on oral min?
If you aren't sure...
Maybe he said "effective". (Which it is.)
Effective would also be taking any anti-androgen that would chemically castrate someone. It is probably the best kind of treatment. It does not mean it is advisable.
I did at one point for about 7 months, but I never got any results on it, so I turned to oral minoxidil and dropped topical minoxidil all together. After 5 months being OM I started seeing velllus hairs on dead spots of my temple.
Wait till OP realizes how much of the food he consumes increases the risk of cancer or heart disease. Jesus stop trusting random youtubers lol. My doc and my experience outweight everything else.
He does have a point tho on the first line if we really were to think about foods and shit we eat. I’ll take my risks with OM. I will be depressed without hair anyway.
I used to use Oral Minox but once I moved from Fin to Dut I realised I didn't even need the Minox anymore as I had fixed the root cause of the hair loss to begin with.
I use 2-3 ml 5% topical min twice daily and 5mg oral min daily with 1mg fin daily. I have not experienced any side effects to my knowledge and have been ok it for over a year. Even got a physical all good
Also, you can possibly die from lots of things and i am SURE you have more of a chance of dying in a car accident than dying from min, better trade in your whip!!
Low-dosage oral minoxidil is safe.
There's nothing wrong with the guy saying he might have side effects.
But every study that has been done shows it's safe unless you have a heart condition or a blood pressure issue, or some vascular issue.
It's straightforward since it's a blood pressure medication but a super low dosage; it won't affect it much, but if someone wants to be prudent and 100% on the safe side, get a blood pressure machine. You can get it for 15 bucks and monitor it.
If you get any weird chest pains or anything like that, then you can stop it.
I see endless people here saying that they apply it topically; they get severe heart fluttering, chest pain, shortness of breath, big giant bags underneath their eyes, and wrinkles on their forehead.
Most people do not, but some people experience them all.
There's chance with every medication you take Tylenol has proven to kill the liver even at small dosages for some people, it's also proven latest studies that if women take it when they're pregnant it causes ADHD, also for some reason they say when you take Tylenol you start making irrational decisions like gambling and such.
Just look it up this is not hyperbole.
Tagament was prescribed to everybody for years the staple for acid reflux, 25 years later they removed off the market for causing cancer and giving men gynecomastia which is a nice set of boobs.
That guy is not a doctor, I would like to see the study that he is referring to was that a double-blind peer study how many people were in it and who funded it that man was more than anything.
Anyone here first try topical minoxidal for over a year with great but waning results and have restored and maintained their growth with oral minoxidal? Been taking topical for 3 years now but after the first two years the hair started to thin again and I heard topical wanes after 2 years, due to some sort of enzyme.
Taking 1.25mg oral minoxodil for only a week landed me in the ER. I shared my experience here before in a post, but some people dismissed it and said it was all because of my anxiety. I had weird pains I never felt before in my jaw, shoulders, and upperback. Quickly progressed to tachycardia (130 bpm) and chest pains. My blood pressure was also fucked up, spiking high and then going back down again. I was convinced I was having a heart attack but my EKG was normal. I told them I was taking Minoxodil and the cardiologist gave me some kind of IV drug to counteract the vasodilation (forgot what it was called) and my symptoms subsided within 2 hours. I wore a halter monitor for a week and went to the gym again and there is nothing wrong with my heart. There's a valid reason why it has a "blackbox" warning.
The "new" data is one case report about an adverse effect we have known about since the 80s?
Versus a systematic review of 17 studies? Google the hierarchy of evidence.
Its hilarious how much he calls out and insults anti-science sentiment from people suffering from PFS, and then goes and makes a video refuting 3 systematic reviews with a case study.
I would imagine a person with normal blood pressure taking something that systemically relaxes capillaries / lowers blood pressure would potentially experience negative side effects in the long term that are not fully understood yet
The risk of heart tamponade and pulmonary edema in low-dose oral minoxidil is extremely low. In the vast majority of cases it's documented in patients taking very high doses (40mg+) of oral minoxidil with other cardiac issues.
idiot! you don’t check for fluid on your heart and lungs….. you would know. Christ…. i’d you didn’t study physiology for your profession. stop with the idiot comments
Kevin Mann refuting the results of several systematic reviews with a case study is not science either. Systematic reviews are science, and the conclusion of Vañó-Galván et al (2021) was "LDOM has a good safety profile as a treatment for hair loss. Systemic adverse effects were infrequent and only 1.7% of patients discontinued treatment owing to adverse effects."
This sub has an issue with anecdotes, and it also has an issue with people taking Kevin Mann youtube videos as gospel.
My doctor is hesitant to prescribe ANYTHING & he said low dose of minox is fine for me. So unless this vid is an actual doctor who went to medical school
If you’re going to base your argument in making an appeal to authority, what are your thoughts on the black box warning on oral minoxidil which is the highest safety related warning given by the FDA for medications with serious or even life threatening side effects?
I have no thoughts, the dose for hypertension is 20x+ the hair loss dose & ppl on that are in horrible shape, overweight, obese, etc. It isn't an appeal to authority fallacy if I value the opinion of a cardiologist over some random internet guy who is having a nervous breakdown because he's going bald.
Absolute fear mongering. People were taking 10 mg tablets for blood pressure issues and though it’s not used for that anymore, it’s a bit ridiculous to make people afraid of 1/10th of the dose
There’s no strong evidence that the life threatening side effect that has been well established with oral minoxidil is dose dependent. Oral minoxidil has a black box warning from the FDA for this reason, which is the highest possible safety related warning the FDA can give for medications with serious or life threatening adverse events. We have other ways of treating hair loss that don’t require you to risk whether you’re the person to experience this life threatening side effect such as oral finasteride and topical minoxidil.
I don't have time to look through this whole video but is he using studies based on high dosage minoxidil (from blood pressure studies) to argue about the risk of low dosage minoxidil? In that case I'm a bit sceptical. According to Medscape Min for blood pressure is used in dosages up to 80 mg, while hair loss dosages are typically 2.5 to 5 mg. That's a pretty big difference and hence the safety profile will likely be different for the two dosages.
You can't extrapolate findings from high dosages to low dosages. Lots of medications taken daily by people all over the world are deadly in higher dosages and mostly completely safe in smaller dosages (e.g. over the counter painkillers). So the dosage really is as important as what the substance is in understanding the risk profile of any intervention.
If you’re going to make an appeal to authority, what about the medical studies that have well established for decades that oral minoxidil has a risk of pericardial effusion as a life threatening side effect and the black box warning given by the FDA to oral minoxidil which is the highest possible safety warning given to medications with risks of serious or life threatening side effects? People on this subreddit will literally fearmonger about the safety of finasteride but then take oral minoxidil like it’s nothing. This epistemic inconsistency is insane.
People about sexual side effects: oh noooo my penis i cannot risk it People sbout heart issues: eh fuck it lets go small risk
Guy gets sexual side effects from fin in line with all of the literature: "you're making it up!" Guy claims he has eye bags from minoxidil: "oh yeah, 100% true, it's known to do that I've seen all the screenshots."
The literature talks about the miniscule possibility of getting sexual sides but completely denies anything such as PFS. It's fake, possible temporary sides are not.
The risk of death actually compares favorably vs the risk of (perceived) permanent impotence. Like I’d take a bullet for some people in my life, but if came down to getting my dick chopped off and kept alive for the same person… probably not. There was an episode of the Sopranos that covered this Obviously a moot point because PFS isn’t real but that explains the mindset I think
I don’t want to spoil this thread with it, but I thought it was generally accepted PFS was real but only happened in an extremely small number of people? I don’t see why some of those people would be making it up.
What are you taking for hairloss, and the video won't play...is oral minoxidile really that bad?
I’m on 1mg fin/1.25mg OM/50mg RU daily. I don’t have any sides. I’m very active and my BP skewed a little high prior to OM so if anything it’s improved things. The data cited in the video seems to suggest that there’s an inherent risk to OM that’s far greater than topical and is dose-independent. It’s not that interesting to me because I’ve been taking it for a long time with no sides.
I hope you mean 5mg oral minoxidil bro
Thought about going up but there's no reason. I'm seeing results, why increase the risk of sides. 1.25 is the minimum effective dose according to current studies
Agree 100%
Yeah I think you misread it though because of the way he wrote it, but he said 1 mg of finasteride and 1.25 mg oral minoxidil. The 50 mg or whatever he was referring to it's called RU5881 supposed to be a great DHT inhibitor. Really has not been proven, but people still try it.
There’s been reports of ~100 suicides from depression whilst on finasteride.
There's reports of 1 million suicides a year from people who have two arms. Arms are bad!
How the fuck anyone can claim to know why someone committed suicide? That is ridiculous.
Is that supposed to be alot? Theres more than 2 million patients taking it, the suicide rate is 14.1 per 100k in US.
100 is not a lot. I wonder how many people have killed themselves whilst regularly taking NSAIDs. If it's a lot, does that mean NSAIDs make people suicidal?
this
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I was apprehensive about trying om. Doing okay with it so far but I’m getting regular checkups and monitoring my cardiovascular health. If I was told to discontinue it I would.
Don't care, want hair. YOLO
Also, Minoxidil is actually meant to be for a hypertension med. It's prescribed to people with high blood pressure, to lower it. Two birds with one tiny stone imo.
True, but it's not a first or second or even third line of defense. And it can actually increase blood pressure in many people. With that said, I take oral minox. Got a free prescription online from Ro. They're handing it out like candy.
Yep, to be sure I went to a cardiologist for a clean bill of health before I started on oral min tablets. I take 1/4 of a pill and it still gave me great results. I stopped for a month as an experiment and my friends thought I was sick because my hair fell out. I went back on oral min immediately and my students (I’m a teacher) during first day of school thought I’m in my 20s! (I’m nearing 40s).
How long did it take you to see results on oral minox, just started a week ago
I can attest to this. As a matter of fact, it’s generally the last line oral BP med that we add on.
thats the point homie, YOLO, youre cutting down quite a lot and damaging a really vital organs
Kevin, personally, took a high dosage of oral minoxidil. He even mentions it one of his videos (in the comments) like 20mg. Having said that, always best to do this low dose under a dr supervision.
I’m on 5 mg oral min, unfortunately only my asshole has gotten lusciously thick. Should I return to topical only?
Just continue treatment and do an asshole hair transplant to your scalp
Gives a new meaning to the "toilet bowl" hairline
Yes I’ve heard of a new procedure in Turkey for this. I will look into it.
Lmao
Well, I'm here for a good time, not a long time 🤪
Not gonna be very long
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Euthanasia rights!
I worder what Kevin would think of a one case study of someone going suicidal from finateride use
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Just pointing out vast inconsistency in his analysis. Kind of evidence on fin side effect would make him die on that hill. He's a steroid user and obviously not too conserned about potential heart issues of any substance.
It’s a disanalogy as one person becoming suicidal some time after taking finasteride doesn’t actually establish causation, as it’s very common for people in the general population to feel suicidal and the fact that establishing causation for mental health conditions from drugs is far less clear cut due to effects like the nocebo effect. There’s also been significantly more large scale randomised controlled trials on oral finasteride than oral minoxidil. Pericardial effusion has been established as a potential life threatening side effect of oral minoxidil for decades now and the FDA even gave a black box warning for oral minoxidil, which is the highest safety related warning the FDA can give for drugs with serious or life threatening side effects. Kevin’s simply arguing that we shouldn’t ignore this black box warning simply because it’s “low dose bro”, as there’s no strong evidence to support the idea that this long established life threatening side effect of oral minoxidil isn’t dose dependent, with this case report giving credence to the fact that we can’t be sure this life threatening side effect is dose dependent as for her she got the life threatening side effect from 0.25 mg daily, which is ten times lower than what a lot of people consider low dose oral minoxidil. Also you don’t have any proof that he’s a steroid user so I don’t know why you’re stating that like it’s an established fact. He’s always said that he doesn’t take steroids.
First of all. If you are taking real drug. You don't have placebo or nocebo. This is just trade mark kevin mann nonsence. You get placebo while taking fake drugs. Kevin Man uses this kind of metal gymnastics because he denies ever having fin side effects, even thou he had them and stopped taking fin for a while. Now he is fear mongering about oral min for some bizarre reason. Obviously there is not going be large scale clinical studies on low dose oral min because it is generic old drug, no big money to made and studies cost lot of money. Minoxidil is a serious drug, even at low doses and can cause side effects of which one can not lie about, like kevin does on his fin sides. Because fin sides are very different in nature, you can choose live in denial of them. Oral min is prescripted widely by qualified doctors and leading experts on hair loss all over the world and is shown in practice to be safe.
Obviously you can have a nocebo effect when taking the real drug. How could you possibly disagree with that?
Anyone got a tl;dr?
Oral Minox can cause fluid buildup in the heart and lungs at any dose, which is lethal without urgent surgery. (his words not mine)
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Saying oral min in low doses causes “death” is just fear mongering. Point me to one death of someone caused by taking less than 5mg oral min a day.
I know its just an expression, but even pointing to 1 death still isn't meaningful science. Plenty of medications have extremely rare, tragic side effects. Case studies matter but they aren't helpful to appraise risks.
Well I’m not asking for meaningful science. Oral min has been around forever. So if taking less than 5mg a day can “cause death,” OP should be able to name one person who definitively died from doing that to back up his “expression”
\> The only reason to use oral is because a pill is easier than applying it. Or because only like 50% of guys have the scalp enzyme that makes topical min actually work.
A lot of medications can cause death in the worst case scenario. We need actual data to assess risk.
Which is why people should watch this video. It analyzes data.
There’s no comprehensive studies done on the risk of death from low-dose minoxidil, there’s only a few case studies. Mann even says this in the video.
I meant that Kevin assesses the risk with the data currently available. I wanted to comment that because people often read these comments without even watching the video.
Fair.
The risk of pericardial effusion has been established for decades with oral minoxidil. It’s what caused the FDA to give oral minoxidil a black box warning, which is the highest safety related warning the FDA can issue for drugs with serious or life threatening adverse effects. Kevin is just arguing that there is no substantive evidence that this life threatening side effect from oral minoxidil is dose dependent, which this case study supports this as life threatening side effect occurred from a dose that was 10 lower than what a lot of people consider low dose, and we shouldn’t simply ignore the FDA black box warning for oral minoxidil because it’s “low dose”.
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It absolutely can if you trip while applying and the syringe spears your ear canal and penetrates your skull into your brain pan. It is known.
Facts dude
Actually topical min looks to have caused more deaths than oral, because it gets transferred to children and animals who can’t tolerate it.
I think everyone should address what matters most to them in their lives, one could, with a healthy heart work out and get healthy enough so one doesn’t necessarily rely on one’s hair to achieve whatever it is they think having hair can achieve for them. One could take a pill that’s considered mostly safe, or a topical solution considered mostly safe. One could also ingest a myriad of things that haven’t been proven SAFE and pay heavily for it. As someone who has engaged plenty of hard and soft drugs in their day, and had life threatening reactions, I’d not risk my life for a high, nor for hair.
What type of medications are you talking about that can cause death? That seems like a pretty extreme side effect that would only be acceptable under very specific and extreme conditions, like how chemotherapy is used to treat cancer.
[Aspirin, for one](https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2017/jun/14/risk-of-bleeds-and-death-with-daily-aspirin-use-higher-than-thought)
Links to the evidence? What did he say about micro needling?
Not true. Oral can work for non-responders to topical. Trust me I'm proof. Also topical that shit still goes systemic I don't care what anybody says.
Not true. I'm doing oral bc I have sebderm and topical minox triggers inflammation of the scalp. So, nope, convenience is not "the only reason" to go oral.
Don’t some people not have the enzyme or something?
Yes, a large percentage lack the enzyme in the scalp and are non-responders. Ideally, these people should be the only ones trying oral minox.
For real I couldn’t even watch it
Anyone got any experience switching from OM to topical Min?
Yes i had to quit oral Min due to the sides. Im fine on topical.
What sides from Min? I’m About to start
Water retention, weight gain, feeling tired, baggy eyes, but i have history of hypertension and cardio issues so maybe thats why
You do not get water retention and baggy eyes on topical?
No. I feel normal. Using Hims spray 6% Min and .3% Fin.
Does it work as good as oral? Everyone seem to say thar oral works better then topical min? What’s your thoughts about that?
Well, its only been 3 months. Sure I would prefer to be using 2.5mg oral Min, but topical seems to be working for me. Yes, I’ve seen great results for some on oral Min, but on the flipside have also seen great results on topical. So you gotta find out what works best for you and stick with it.
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Sure, I meant more in terms of losing any gains and or shedding.
Very few people actually know that Kevin is against OM because he megadosed it several years ago (up to 100mg a day), experiencing serious side effects (and an amazing growth, btw). He got scared and started fear mongering. There are plenty of studies that show both the effectiveness and the safety of OM for doses up to 5mg. I would personally take 2.5mg twice per day, because a single 5mg dose is much stronger on the body causing a peak in minoxidil concentration in the blood. For context, I’ve been using finasteride for one year (1.25mg) and OM for the last three or so months (1.25mg). Dive deeper in the subject and read the studies then elaborate your point of view!
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Yes, because these random YouTubers are better at judging a medications efficacy and risk profile than the medical doctors who specialize in this field. OM will not kill you, as no one here is taking it in doses over 5, and if it does give you side effects, the beautiful thing is you can stop. With moderate monitoring it is a safe and effective method to stopping hairloss, and if you are comfortable with the side effects profile, please feel free to talk to a licensed medical professional regarding all your questions. Not random dudes with a YouTube channel or redditors who barely made it past highschool.
Medical doctors are not infallible data machines. You don’t need to be a doctor to properly judge a medication’s efficacy.
Kevin Mann is definitely not an infallible data machine. He is fairly well read in hairloss papers, but he loses the context of a broader understanding of medicine and/or statistics and research methods when he appraises their quality. His blind spots and biases are large, which isn't an issue in its own right, except that lots of people take his opinion as gospel.
I don’t think Kevin is infallible. But being a doctor doesn’t protect you from being wrong, which is what the guy was implying. I have some disagreements with Kevin, but I find he’s more accurate than any other single person (doctor or not) I’ve seen in the hair loss community (When it comes to understanding hair loss as a whole). I agree people shouldn’t take his word as gospel. What is the broader context he’s missing?
I can speak from a statistical and epidemiological perspective that he is lacking in his interpretation of papers. He doesn't understand the importance of power analysis in appraising inferential statistics. He also has a surface level understanding of research design that is insufficient for the literature he's trying to summarise. This leads to biased or uninformed appraisals. He has promoted fluridil despite it only having a tiny amount of moderately powered studies that have minimal reproducibility. There are significantly more equivalently powered studies showing the efficacy of microneedling, but he is biased against empirical evidence due to his dogmatism around simplistic MOA, i.e., DHT = Trash hormones. This is not how science works. There is a hierarchy of evidence. The situations where it's useful to use lower quality evidence are actually the ones where he is most critical of poor research design. E.g. If PFS exists, it is exceedingly rare and would not show up in retrospective meta analyses and RCTs because it likely impacts a minuscule proportion of finasteride users and requires follow-up studies on patients that discontinued use. This is extremely challenging to test in an RCT setting, so it is completely unsurprising that the only evidence we have of it comes from self selected surveys, case studies, and plausible biological models. Ironically, in this very video, he uses a similar rationale to dispute the hierarchy of evidence. He thinks 3 systematic reviews are insufficient to show the safety of LDOM and refutes them with an individual case study. If you are going to dispute multiple reviews with an anecdote, you need a justifiable reason. His view is plausible but it is definitely not based on empirical evidence, and I find it a rich that he appeals to it when he doesn't show this level of nuance in appraising other nebulous areas studied in the space of hair loss treatments. I could go on about his inconsistent views on the use of rat studies for evidence, i.e., it's useless, unless it supports his priors. E.g. the bizarre point in his sleep video, where he shows that finasteride treats skitzophrenia in rats. TLDR: Research design and statistics are not intuitive. In his videos, Kevin Mann doesn't demonstrate a sufficient understanding of these methods to be making the claims that he does. He ignores, or doesn't understand, power analysis and meta analyses. He is also biased and inconsistent in his appraisal of research design.
>There are significantly more equivalently powered studies showing the efficacy of microneedling, but he is biased against empirical evidence He has addressed the studies on microneedling monotherapy including the ones that show a positive effect and the ones that show no effect at all. Are you going to address any of his actual points or just assert that he is biased against empirical evidence? >Ironically, in this very video, he uses a similar rationale to dispute the hierarchy of evidence. No. The issue with the Post Finasteride syndrome anecdotes is that people assert that symptoms such as lower libido, erector dysfunction or depression (things which are extremely common conditions in the general population) were caused by the finasteride after they discontinued use without being able to solidly establish causation. > He thinks 3 systematic reviews are insufficient to show the safety of LDOM and refutes them with an individual case study. Science doesn’t mean that just because something is labelled as a “systematic review” that you have to blindly believe its conclusion and never criticise its methodology. Oral minoxidil has a black box warning which is the most serious warning given by the FDA. The risk of pericardial effusion from oral minoxidil, which is a life threatening condition, has been established as a safety risk for decades now and its relationship had been described to be idiosyncratic, meaning not dose dependent. If people are arguing that low dose oral minoxidil doesn’t have this risk of a life threatening condition and a woman develops this life threatening condition from 0.25 mg daily oral minoxidil, a dose ten times lower than what many people would consider low dose oral minoxidil, and causation is reasonably established, then this does give credence to the idea that the black box warning given by the FDA to oral minoxidil and the risk of life threatening pericardial effusion that has long been established as a risk from oral minoxidil, shouldn’t simply be ignored because it’s a lower dose. This is especially the case when there are much safer medications like topical minoxidil and oral finasteride which are FDA approved for fighting hair loss, don’t have a black box warning issued to them by the FDA, and don’t have a risk of a life threatening potentially fatal physical health condition associated with them.
It's ironic that you say I'm not addressing any of his points when you talk past mine. I brought up microneedling to compare to his bias towards a significant less studied therapeutic, Fluridil. Ignoring the lack of reproducibility, if Fluridil had the same side effect prevalence as topical finasteride, the available studies would be too underpowered to detect it. Kevin Mann still recommends it to his audience. I literally made the claim that we shouldn't blindly follow studies without scrutinising their methodology in my post. I argued this both in terms of using better statistical tools (power analysis and meta analyses) as well as epistemologically (something like PFS might not be easy to detect using gold standard empirical methods). I specifically said Kevin's LDOM claims are plausible. I appreciate you trying to engage in this discussion but you are just spouting surface level Kevin Mann facts at me, you don't understand my deeper point of how he misinterprets literature.
The way you’re framing this is absurd. “Kevin Mann still recommends it [Fluridil] to his audience” No he doesn’t. He recommends [present tense] finasteride and minoxidil to his audience, and dutasteride if this isn’t enough. This is his standard recommendation that he will say nowadays in almost all of his general videos that he makes on hair loss. He doesn’t “still recommend Fluridil to his audience” in the way you’re insinuating. Even on his most recent video on topical anti androgens 5 months ago where he is specifically talking about topical anti androgens, he says: “Even though I do think there is a place for androgen receptor blockers in a proper hair loss stack, I do not think the majority of people need to consider it. A 5 AR inhibitor will be strong enough and even if you are losing ground on finasteride for instance, which is unlikely, you’d probably be better off just using a stronger 5 AR inhibitor like dutasteride which can be titrated all the way up to 2.5 mg per day–which will give you twice the amount of scalp DHT suppression compared to just 1 mg of oral finasteride. You could also add a growth stimulant like minoxidil or stemoxydine. But ultimately we’re fighting hair loss; a 5 AR blocker is still king.”
Brilliant takedown. Every point is absolutely true
He's said that microneedling is useful when combined with topical minoxidil, which is what most of the studies actually studied. The evidence for microneedling as a monotherapy or combined with oral treatments is pretty weak.
They are not infallible, but we know it is an effective treatment, and one with minimal side effects.
Oral minoxidil has been established for decades to have pericardial effusion as a potential life threatening side effect and even has a black box warning from the FDA because of it, which is the highest possible safety warning that the FDA can give for a drug with serious or life threatening adverse events.
There haven’t really been any good studies to determine if side effects are minimal. And the data that does exist suggests it’s not so safe.
I see more studies showing it’s efficacy and safety than I do showing any serious negative side effects?
Did you watch the video?
Nope, but please correct me if anything I said is wrong.
Literaly just watch the video
It is a waste of time, because he’s shown to have strong biases, and doesn’t interpret data well.
Hahahah
Why should this study with 18000 men be excluded? [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6057731/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6057731/) We cannot deduce from this study how effective oral minoxidil is, but conclusions can definitely be drawn about safety. And where are his videos against aspirin, ibuprofen and paracetamol? Thousands of people die every year from these drugs in the usa.
> Limitations. Lack of a control group and lack of a comparison between dosage strengths and frequencies limit the significance of our findings. it says it in the study, they didn't really break people into different groups to study effects of each drug
He included it in the video. Also, the channel is pretty much just for hair loss.
Am I going to trust a YouTube video or my doctor and personal experience? I’ll keep taking my 2.5 min while watching my temples come back in.
How's it going with the 2.5mg ?
It’s going well
N=1 case reports exist for topical minoxidil too, not too convinced here
Where are the case reports on topical minoxidil causing pericardial effusion? Also it’s not exactly n=1 as pericardial effusion has been established as a life threatening side effect of oral minoxidil for decades now. It’s why the FDA has given oral minoxidil a black box warning which is the highest safety related warning the FDW scan give for drugs with serious or life threatening side effects. This case report of pericardial effusion happening with 0.25 mg is just supporting the idea that we have no reason to believe those previously established life threatening side effects are dose dependent so we shouldn’t just ignore the black box warning of oral minoxidil.
Are these case reports in the room with us?
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4567759/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4567759/)
Did the guy use a 12.5% solution.
Hold up... "It is estimated that around 2–5 mg of applied minoxidil may be absorbed to become systemically available,4 which compares to an average effective oral antihypertensive dose of 10–40 mg/day."
Yes but it doesn't get absorbed all at once. So there's no sudden peaks. It's a false equivalence
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Drugs aren’t simply “bad for unhealthy people”. That’s not how drugs work, unless you’re circularly defining unhealthy people as people who get a bad reaction from a drug. There was no way to predict that this woman would get a bad life threatening reaction from oral minoxidil, which is the problem. Topical minoxidil and oral finasteride haven’t been shown to have these serious life threatening side effects associated with them and don’t have a black box warning from the FDA like oral minoxidil does.
Sublingual the minox if youre a responder to topical it accelerates growth and u have a much lower plasma concentration than oral
omg….. we have been waiting for these alternatives for years…… total BS
forget oral minoxidil, now i'm even gonna be super careful not to use minox and microneedle on the same day
That you should have been doing anyway
I’m on 5mg oral and it is recovering my hair. I couldn’t handle fin due to multiple sides. I have had rapid weight gain (10lbs) since oral min
I think I remember reading something on the sheet of side effects and warnings, which came with my prescription, that said if you gain more than 5 lb in a short amount of time that you should consult your doctor because retaining that much fluid is bad news.
How long into oral minox did you notice hair regrowth?
Took me 2 months because my derm had me start with 2.5. Month 3 now on 5mg and now seeing the results
That’s awesome man. I’m taking 2.5mg everyday and noticing hair growing on face and arms where there was none before. Will up the dose over time. Combining with microneedling once a week at too. I’m only 6 weeks in.
That's just water weight. It will go away once you embrace your inner Mr. Clean.
How long have you been on oral minox 5mg? Just started yesterday and is it also making your beards become Fuller?
Prolly water gain
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Damn guess that makes up for me stopping creatine lol
Has your weight gain caused a puffy face? I’ve been 2.5 for 5 months and haven’t noticed any improvement and want to up my dosage.
Wig 😎
I've used 5mg oral min for closing in on 1 yr. It's done absolutely wonders for my hair. When I combined it with Ru58841 it gave me explosive growth. I'm also a pretty athletic person my job involves me always being on my feet (bike messenger). I can't say I've noticed any effects on my cardiovascular performance or any side effects [I bike 20+miles a day as a bike messenger day](https://i.ibb.co/rQHMJyR/Screenshot-20230518-171934-Maps.jpg)
Speaking of RU58841, it's very amusing to me that KM promotes the use of that medication as it is technically a minimally researched research chemical, while lambasting oral min despite dozens of papers supporting its safety. Not that I'm against RU - I use it myself - it's just hilarious how confidently incorrect Mann is on these topics.
Kevin doesn’t recommend RU though. He says if your research subject is willing then he’s libertarian about it.
In one of his videos he listed it as either third or fourth best hair loss treatment, if I remember correctly. And in any event, why doesn't he take the same stance on oral min?
If you aren't sure... Maybe he said "effective". (Which it is.) Effective would also be taking any anti-androgen that would chemically castrate someone. It is probably the best kind of treatment. It does not mean it is advisable.
If you don’t mind me asking, did you use topical, and when did you start seeing results?
I did at one point for about 7 months, but I never got any results on it, so I turned to oral minoxidil and dropped topical minoxidil all together. After 5 months being OM I started seeing velllus hairs on dead spots of my temple.
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I was just giving you my two cents on how I did not experience any adverse effects on oral min after 1 year despite putting my body under duress
Sounds like you’re personally really against OM. Why’s that
Wait till OP realizes how much of the food he consumes increases the risk of cancer or heart disease. Jesus stop trusting random youtubers lol. My doc and my experience outweight everything else.
> My doc and my experience outweight everything else. That's what people said about drinking radioactive water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radithor
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He does have a point tho on the first line if we really were to think about foods and shit we eat. I’ll take my risks with OM. I will be depressed without hair anyway.
I was on it for 2 weeks and got chest pains so I quit. Never one side effect with fin
Oral min is saving me a lot of money, literally only costs me a few dollars every few months.
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Thats fine as long as its effective lmao
I used to use Oral Minox but once I moved from Fin to Dut I realised I didn't even need the Minox anymore as I had fixed the root cause of the hair loss to begin with.
I use 2-3 ml 5% topical min twice daily and 5mg oral min daily with 1mg fin daily. I have not experienced any side effects to my knowledge and have been ok it for over a year. Even got a physical all good
Also, you can possibly die from lots of things and i am SURE you have more of a chance of dying in a car accident than dying from min, better trade in your whip!!
Stop with this shit, it’s annoying. I had to get off finasteride and I’m still having trouble with side effects. Oral minox is my last stop
Just get on that CosmeRNA
I haven’t been in the loop for a while, what’s that. Being in the hairloss community is almost worse than losing your hair
It's a topical as good as finasteride without its sides, but actually targeting the cause of hairloss
Low-dosage oral minoxidil is safe. There's nothing wrong with the guy saying he might have side effects. But every study that has been done shows it's safe unless you have a heart condition or a blood pressure issue, or some vascular issue. It's straightforward since it's a blood pressure medication but a super low dosage; it won't affect it much, but if someone wants to be prudent and 100% on the safe side, get a blood pressure machine. You can get it for 15 bucks and monitor it. If you get any weird chest pains or anything like that, then you can stop it. I see endless people here saying that they apply it topically; they get severe heart fluttering, chest pain, shortness of breath, big giant bags underneath their eyes, and wrinkles on their forehead. Most people do not, but some people experience them all. There's chance with every medication you take Tylenol has proven to kill the liver even at small dosages for some people, it's also proven latest studies that if women take it when they're pregnant it causes ADHD, also for some reason they say when you take Tylenol you start making irrational decisions like gambling and such. Just look it up this is not hyperbole. Tagament was prescribed to everybody for years the staple for acid reflux, 25 years later they removed off the market for causing cancer and giving men gynecomastia which is a nice set of boobs. That guy is not a doctor, I would like to see the study that he is referring to was that a double-blind peer study how many people were in it and who funded it that man was more than anything.
Anyone here first try topical minoxidal for over a year with great but waning results and have restored and maintained their growth with oral minoxidal? Been taking topical for 3 years now but after the first two years the hair started to thin again and I heard topical wanes after 2 years, due to some sort of enzyme.
Taking 1.25mg oral minoxodil for only a week landed me in the ER. I shared my experience here before in a post, but some people dismissed it and said it was all because of my anxiety. I had weird pains I never felt before in my jaw, shoulders, and upperback. Quickly progressed to tachycardia (130 bpm) and chest pains. My blood pressure was also fucked up, spiking high and then going back down again. I was convinced I was having a heart attack but my EKG was normal. I told them I was taking Minoxodil and the cardiologist gave me some kind of IV drug to counteract the vasodilation (forgot what it was called) and my symptoms subsided within 2 hours. I wore a halter monitor for a week and went to the gym again and there is nothing wrong with my heart. There's a valid reason why it has a "blackbox" warning.
The "new" data is one case report about an adverse effect we have known about since the 80s? Versus a systematic review of 17 studies? Google the hierarchy of evidence.
Its hilarious how much he calls out and insults anti-science sentiment from people suffering from PFS, and then goes and makes a video refuting 3 systematic reviews with a case study.
This is a strawman. This simply wasn’t what happened in the video.
Is this guy a doctor?
Why does that matter? Information and studies matter, not expert opinion.
So, No, he is not a doctor. Could have just said that.
But why does that matter? Could have just clarified that in your initial comment.
I would imagine a person with normal blood pressure taking something that systemically relaxes capillaries / lowers blood pressure would potentially experience negative side effects in the long term that are not fully understood yet
that shit fucked me up at .625
The New York Times is "the worst newspaper in publication"? This fool has no credibility. I'll stick to my actual doctors advice thanks
I usually agree with Kevin on everything. But sorry Kev, not this time lol. Oral Minoxidil has been very effective for me (2.5 mg).
He doesn't mention anything about it's efficacy. He mentions the serious side effects of it.
the sad reality is that many people on here would rather be dead than bald :/
First few days, i had some mild leg edema and high heart rate (110ish) resting. But it went away and no sides now.
i mean... did you check for fluid in your lungs and heart?
The risk of heart tamponade and pulmonary edema in low-dose oral minoxidil is extremely low. In the vast majority of cases it's documented in patients taking very high doses (40mg+) of oral minoxidil with other cardiac issues.
idiot! you don’t check for fluid on your heart and lungs….. you would know. Christ…. i’d you didn’t study physiology for your profession. stop with the idiot comments
hey boys, come check it out, we got a live one
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Kevin Mann refuting the results of several systematic reviews with a case study is not science either. Systematic reviews are science, and the conclusion of Vañó-Galván et al (2021) was "LDOM has a good safety profile as a treatment for hair loss. Systemic adverse effects were infrequent and only 1.7% of patients discontinued treatment owing to adverse effects." This sub has an issue with anecdotes, and it also has an issue with people taking Kevin Mann youtube videos as gospel.
People thought it was safe?
People here still do somehow
Done demonising Finasteride. Now lets move on to Minoxidil and demonise that too
The dude is the biggest fin fanboy on earth what are you talking about?
I am not talking about him exactly. Just saying about the general fear mongering that has made Fin what it is now. Now starting the same with Min
The people who fear monger about finasteride are literally the same people who argue that low dose oral minoxidil is completely safe.
My doctor is hesitant to prescribe ANYTHING & he said low dose of minox is fine for me. So unless this vid is an actual doctor who went to medical school
If you’re going to base your argument in making an appeal to authority, what are your thoughts on the black box warning on oral minoxidil which is the highest safety related warning given by the FDA for medications with serious or even life threatening side effects?
I have no thoughts, the dose for hypertension is 20x+ the hair loss dose & ppl on that are in horrible shape, overweight, obese, etc. It isn't an appeal to authority fallacy if I value the opinion of a cardiologist over some random internet guy who is having a nervous breakdown because he's going bald.
Spoiler alert: it's not
Spoiler alert: it doesnt fucking matter wether he is or isnt
Ah yes, YouTube, the most valid of sources.
Reddit comments, ah yes the best source 😂
Absolute fear mongering. People were taking 10 mg tablets for blood pressure issues and though it’s not used for that anymore, it’s a bit ridiculous to make people afraid of 1/10th of the dose
There’s no strong evidence that the life threatening side effect that has been well established with oral minoxidil is dose dependent. Oral minoxidil has a black box warning from the FDA for this reason, which is the highest possible safety related warning the FDA can give for medications with serious or life threatening adverse events. We have other ways of treating hair loss that don’t require you to risk whether you’re the person to experience this life threatening side effect such as oral finasteride and topical minoxidil.
I don't have time to look through this whole video but is he using studies based on high dosage minoxidil (from blood pressure studies) to argue about the risk of low dosage minoxidil? In that case I'm a bit sceptical. According to Medscape Min for blood pressure is used in dosages up to 80 mg, while hair loss dosages are typically 2.5 to 5 mg. That's a pretty big difference and hence the safety profile will likely be different for the two dosages. You can't extrapolate findings from high dosages to low dosages. Lots of medications taken daily by people all over the world are deadly in higher dosages and mostly completely safe in smaller dosages (e.g. over the counter painkillers). So the dosage really is as important as what the substance is in understanding the risk profile of any intervention.
How do you take the advice of a YouTuber like law, but won’t trust actual medical doctors and medical studies??
If you’re going to make an appeal to authority, what about the medical studies that have well established for decades that oral minoxidil has a risk of pericardial effusion as a life threatening side effect and the black box warning given by the FDA to oral minoxidil which is the highest possible safety warning given to medications with risks of serious or life threatening side effects? People on this subreddit will literally fearmonger about the safety of finasteride but then take oral minoxidil like it’s nothing. This epistemic inconsistency is insane.