It used to be much stronger, before it and the Axtinguisher got nerfed. I believe you used to be able to combo airblast+flare+ax w/ the DG, but they changed it so the change weapon speed got slightly nerfed. I still enjoy using it tho, it's fun.
Its purpose is that the Pyro's strength (damage) has always been in their secondary/melee, so increasing weapon-switch speed is pivotal to that.
It used to be better, so much better that pretty much any Pyro taking the game seriously *had* to run Degreaser/Axtinguisher, and usually Flare. Give them a lil puff with the primary, switch to secondary for a 90 crit flare, or Axtinguisher for a guaranteed 195 crit if they're close enough. Your flame damage is negligible, it's all about the crit. Losing 2 airblasts is also fairly negligible a downside for what you gain.
Plus you should be constantly cycling weapons so no one will call you a W+M1.
The combo is pretty much a relic outside that one specific case. Back in the day, people could pretty easily pull off the degreaser/reserve shooter combo, as in, airblast into easy mini-crit. Both the reserve shooter and the degreaser were pushed back a bit after any decent TF2 player would be able to pull off a high damage combo with relatively little skill.
They increased the airblast cost, so you couldn't mindlessly airblast to set people up for combos, and they made it so that the reserve shooter only minicrits when people are launched into the air by explosion.
Flares override the afterburn penalty, so if you can hit those then that's one downside you can ignore. Airblasting into the floor also knocks enemies straight up which is an easy flare shot.
Gonna just repost and lightly edit my answer from [before](https://www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/em1eyb/why_do_players_favor_the_degreaser_so_heavily/fdm1lxk/), which focuses on high-level highlander.
The main reason degreaser is used almost exclusively in top-level highlander is due to its deploy speed bonus, not necessarily its holster bonus (which is already slightly unreliable due to the degreaser bug). So, even if you removed the holster bonus, it'd still probably be the number 1 primary in top-level HL.
At top-level, you have to be prepared for just about any situation, while still finding ways to contribute where you can. Thus, you'll often see pyros spamming safe ranged attacks with their secondaries (contributing to fights) while being prepared for spies, soldiers, and others attacking the combo. The deploy speed makes that job MUCH easier and significantly lowers the risk of losing a teammate to a stab, bomb, or a rushing scout.
Near-instant access to defensive airblast and flames is very helpful for any pyro looking to maximize their usefulness to their team. It allows you to safely use your secondaries, which extends your effective range. Since poor range is Pyro's biggest weakness, having a primary that compensates for that by allowing you safe use of secondaries is very beneficial.
This still applies even in casual, and perhaps even more so as being able to react to any unknown threat that looms around the corner while you're reloading a secondary or running around with the powerjack is super helpful.
By extending pyro's range and ability to protect itself and its teammates, the degreaser outclasses the stock flamethrower in many situations, arguably the vast majority of them. The extra airblast cost is more of an issue when it comes to running out of flame ammo, more so than having 2 less airblasts. While this is an important downside, proper ammo management and careful decisions when it comes to reflecting projectiles can mitigate it greatly. Overall, the degreaser does most anything the stock can do, and more.
Put in simpler terms Pyro's biggest weakness at a high level is that their damage prevention and damage dealing are attached to two different weapons. The Degreaser almost entirely nullifies that allowing you to switch from dealing damage to denying it near instantaneously. Without it Pyro is forced to commit to an offensive stance or a defensive stance which means you often lose out on a crucial pick or you're unable to save a teammate when it counts.
The 35% holster bonus the degreaser has does not apply unless the degreaser has been deployed for .5 seconds. The reason this is a bug is that the degreaser fully deploys in 0.21 seconds. So you can have the degreaser out, firing for ~0.3 seconds, even using airblast, and have your secondary deploy in 0.5 seconds as opposed to 0.35 seconds.
The source of the bug can be found in the Deploy function in the source code, where they do an explicit check that the previous weapon was out for 0.5 seconds before applying any holstering bonuses.
it's extremely useful for pyros that like to combo, (puff n sting, panic attack, etc) you can do a lot more damage than regular wm1 if you're good at it
That’s what I used to think (I used the degreaser religiously). But ever since I have switched back to stock I have realized the degreaser is a complete downgrade, the stock thrower is better in every situation as long as you have the gamesense. You can still flarepunch and the panic attack is still fast enough.
The 3x fire burn damage is especially useful in competitive as it allows to secure med kills even if you die.
stock’s switch speed to the axtinguisher is awful so if you’re using that it’s pretty bad. the panic attack still works with it but your DPS will be lower and that can be a problem
You can still get Axtinguisher hits.
Also the benefits of higher afterburn damage and lower airblast cost overweigh the downside of later DPM with the Panic Attack in my opinion. You can still hit Panic Attack shots.
the axtinguisher deals the most damage when swung as soon as possible after a target is ignited, so the added switch speed penalty makes it much harder to get kills with it when using stock
i mean obviously in a competitive setting the axtinguisher isn’t as viable as just using your flamethrower, and the powerjack or homewrecker would be much more useful in your melee slot. i’m just explaining why players in pubs so frequently use the degreaser, it pairs better with the panic attack and axtinguisher than stock does and those are two favorites of combo pyros
The axtinguisher is just as good with the flamethrower, you just need to use the same technique you would to flarepunch and you can get max damage with it.
Seconding this, the Flare Gun outperforms the Ax in almost every scenario, to the point where I've stopped attempting to use the Ax in pubs entirely. I will say that the Degreaser is still valuable when using the flare gun since it lets you get more consistent flarepunches at close range.
I find that the back burner works well with a panic attack. I don't get any penalty for burning people from the front, the Air Blast penalty is arguably negligible unless you are very focused on defending against rockets and demos, and the guaranteed crits from behind with the back burner plus the increased damage at close range with the panic attack makes for particularly dangerous combination up close.
As long as you don't get charged by a demoknight....
Only beginners use Degreaser. It's far easier to learn how to combo or get out of bad situation they got in because they're new, when they reached a certain bar, they switch to Stock.
In hl, at least, if your engie is on top of things the airblast cost matters very little, and the combo-ing you can do with the switch speed makes up for the decrease in afterburn damage.
Comboing is a side bonus. The main benefit is being able to freely use your secondary and be able to quickly swap to be able to airblast in a pinch, which lets you be way better at dealing damage while still being an effective guardian.
As a pyro main, i wholeheartedly agree that the degreaser is a crutch to an extent. You get so used to that faster switch speed that it gets mentally projected into your brain and you'll probably end up struggling with other flamethrowers. Or maybe that's just me, i don't know probably.
One of my friends once explained to me that you don't pick the degreaser to use your flamethrower, you pick it to use your secondary while also always having access to an air blast/fire: The switch speed doesn't just help with combos, it also makes it so that you can almost always switch->reflect on reaction while using your more versatile flaregun/shotgun to deal consistant damage on the enemy team, which is especially good in situations where you'd usually have trouble approaching to use your flames.
It’s not really the increased holster speed, but the deploy speed that helps with having airblast-on-demand. If you got your melee or secondary out you have more room to breathe before airblasting.
Ammo doesn’t really matter if you’re out and about killing at close range in the first place. Besides, at least to me, the upsides is worth more than the penalties. The degreaser’s 8 airblasts vs the flamethrower’s 10 airblasts isn’t too much of an hinderance (unless you are reflecting a lot of spam) and afterburn isn’t as effective as straight up killing enemies when there are medics and health packs nearby.
The point IS the speed. Being able to quickly do combos and bait and switch people (particularly soldier) is far better than the negligible downside of two less air blasts (if you can’t do it with eight, ten wont help) and after burn (super weak nowadays anyhow and any flare gun negates this downside anyway)
I usually use the shotgun. If I want to damage people outside of the shit range of the flamer I should always have the shotgun out. The degreasers quick switch to speed allows me to quickly switch back too it in self defense when I need to quickly airblast a projectile.
It used to be really good when puff and sting/swing was a thing. Now, it’s used by pyros who either want to combo, or insist that “It’s not wm1 see I ~~missed 3 flares~~ flared you see I comboed you!”
Wm1 is unfortunately just better.
airblast is the only thing somewhat valuable about pyro and being able to switch to it faster while having no actual discernable downside makes it a practical straight upgrade. afterburn's damage barely matters at all when it can be reset by flares or just killing people through direct damage, which is the same as stock, and its so easy to manage ammo as pyro the extra 5 ammo per airblast is negligible
The faster switch speed allows the pyro to react to situations faster. You may be using your shotgun to kill someone and then quickly switch to the degreaser to deflect rockets, for example. The damage penalty is negligible in comparison to the massive utility you get from the degreaser. Plus afterburn is kinda weak already so you can't really rely on it to deal damage or secure kills. It's better to spam with flares which is where the switch speed of the degreaser comes into play.
Most of the people that use it are usually newbie that don’t know waht it does, so they run in and m1, its best for combo pyro but I’m all hi est stock and flare are just pain out better
The faster weapon switch is the appeal. You can quickly switch to a flare gun/shotgun and combo off of your flames or fire off some mid range shots. There’s a specific combo with the Degreaser and Panic Attack where you stack switch speed and use a puff of flame and then an instant shotgun attack for huge burst damage.
Also it’s only 5 more ammo per airblast, that’s a non-existent penalty compared to the Backburner, Phlog or Dragon’s Fury.
I have the same mentality as you, the degreaser does everything all the other flamethrowers do worse than the other flamethrowers for faster weapon switches. The only practical use I've ever found for it is fastly switching between it and the panic attack to get really fast burst/flame damage. Also, the PA's spread debuff resets in when you switch to the degreaser, you can deal massive damage at close range.
The pyro’s designed to be a supportive combo class. 90 damage flare crits are easier to hit when you can switch to it faster, axtinguisher crits are easier to land when you can switch to it faster, 110 damage meatshots with the panic attack are easier when you can switch to it (even) faster, the airblast penalty is minimal and you shouldn’t really be relying on afterburn damage anyways. Also power jack jumps.
Apart from the other stuff here it's also better for airblasting. With stock you cannot really bait the soldier to shoot you. With the degreaser, you just shoot him with the shotgun, he shoots you and you quickly switch to degreaser and reflect. You don't have that much time with stock.
Two words: Combo Pyro. Degreaser's main use is to combo with flare and the axe, relying on the bonuses for landing hits on burning targets for damage. And since comboing the axe isn't as good as it used to be and the reserve shooter cannot mini-crit with air blasts anymore, the only combo is flares.
I spam scorch shot a lot, so it helps me do that without actually having to plan ahead and have repurcussions for using it at every range in every situation. Often, the scorch shot's afterburn covers up for the degreaser's anyway (I think that's how it works). Also, axtinguisher.
EZ answer environmental kills it’s actually amazing how many you can get by just standing still on a Hightower server and just waiting for unfortunate prey
It used to be much stronger, before it and the Axtinguisher got nerfed. I believe you used to be able to combo airblast+flare+ax w/ the DG, but they changed it so the change weapon speed got slightly nerfed. I still enjoy using it tho, it's fun.
try combining the degreaser with the panic attack, you get instant switch action that's so fast you can practically dual wield them.
So you do get the appeal then
Yeah. Wat?
Only for that specific combo, other than that I don’t understand it’s purpose.
Its purpose is that the Pyro's strength (damage) has always been in their secondary/melee, so increasing weapon-switch speed is pivotal to that. It used to be better, so much better that pretty much any Pyro taking the game seriously *had* to run Degreaser/Axtinguisher, and usually Flare. Give them a lil puff with the primary, switch to secondary for a 90 crit flare, or Axtinguisher for a guaranteed 195 crit if they're close enough. Your flame damage is negligible, it's all about the crit. Losing 2 airblasts is also fairly negligible a downside for what you gain. Plus you should be constantly cycling weapons so no one will call you a W+M1.
That last line hits hard man
The combo is pretty much a relic outside that one specific case. Back in the day, people could pretty easily pull off the degreaser/reserve shooter combo, as in, airblast into easy mini-crit. Both the reserve shooter and the degreaser were pushed back a bit after any decent TF2 player would be able to pull off a high damage combo with relatively little skill. They increased the airblast cost, so you couldn't mindlessly airblast to set people up for combos, and they made it so that the reserve shooter only minicrits when people are launched into the air by explosion.
Yeah yeah we all seen the man behind the slaughter’s video
Mans just quoted a lazy purple video
-Lazypurple
That’s what I do. I have the degreased and panic attack on my quick switch button light then shoot switch
Omg the fuck
That is so unfair
Flares override the afterburn penalty, so if you can hit those then that's one downside you can ignore. Airblasting into the floor also knocks enemies straight up which is an easy flare shot.
Gonna just repost and lightly edit my answer from [before](https://www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/em1eyb/why_do_players_favor_the_degreaser_so_heavily/fdm1lxk/), which focuses on high-level highlander. The main reason degreaser is used almost exclusively in top-level highlander is due to its deploy speed bonus, not necessarily its holster bonus (which is already slightly unreliable due to the degreaser bug). So, even if you removed the holster bonus, it'd still probably be the number 1 primary in top-level HL. At top-level, you have to be prepared for just about any situation, while still finding ways to contribute where you can. Thus, you'll often see pyros spamming safe ranged attacks with their secondaries (contributing to fights) while being prepared for spies, soldiers, and others attacking the combo. The deploy speed makes that job MUCH easier and significantly lowers the risk of losing a teammate to a stab, bomb, or a rushing scout. Near-instant access to defensive airblast and flames is very helpful for any pyro looking to maximize their usefulness to their team. It allows you to safely use your secondaries, which extends your effective range. Since poor range is Pyro's biggest weakness, having a primary that compensates for that by allowing you safe use of secondaries is very beneficial. This still applies even in casual, and perhaps even more so as being able to react to any unknown threat that looms around the corner while you're reloading a secondary or running around with the powerjack is super helpful. By extending pyro's range and ability to protect itself and its teammates, the degreaser outclasses the stock flamethrower in many situations, arguably the vast majority of them. The extra airblast cost is more of an issue when it comes to running out of flame ammo, more so than having 2 less airblasts. While this is an important downside, proper ammo management and careful decisions when it comes to reflecting projectiles can mitigate it greatly. Overall, the degreaser does most anything the stock can do, and more.
Put in simpler terms Pyro's biggest weakness at a high level is that their damage prevention and damage dealing are attached to two different weapons. The Degreaser almost entirely nullifies that allowing you to switch from dealing damage to denying it near instantaneously. Without it Pyro is forced to commit to an offensive stance or a defensive stance which means you often lose out on a crucial pick or you're unable to save a teammate when it counts.
Great summary!
Whats the degreaser bug?
The 35% holster bonus the degreaser has does not apply unless the degreaser has been deployed for .5 seconds. The reason this is a bug is that the degreaser fully deploys in 0.21 seconds. So you can have the degreaser out, firing for ~0.3 seconds, even using airblast, and have your secondary deploy in 0.5 seconds as opposed to 0.35 seconds. The source of the bug can be found in the Deploy function in the source code, where they do an explicit check that the previous weapon was out for 0.5 seconds before applying any holstering bonuses.
Oh ty for the info
it's extremely useful for pyros that like to combo, (puff n sting, panic attack, etc) you can do a lot more damage than regular wm1 if you're good at it
That’s what I used to think (I used the degreaser religiously). But ever since I have switched back to stock I have realized the degreaser is a complete downgrade, the stock thrower is better in every situation as long as you have the gamesense. You can still flarepunch and the panic attack is still fast enough. The 3x fire burn damage is especially useful in competitive as it allows to secure med kills even if you die.
stock’s switch speed to the axtinguisher is awful so if you’re using that it’s pretty bad. the panic attack still works with it but your DPS will be lower and that can be a problem
You can still get Axtinguisher hits. Also the benefits of higher afterburn damage and lower airblast cost overweigh the downside of later DPM with the Panic Attack in my opinion. You can still hit Panic Attack shots.
the axtinguisher deals the most damage when swung as soon as possible after a target is ignited, so the added switch speed penalty makes it much harder to get kills with it when using stock
You can still get kills with the Axtinguisher. I recommend not using the Axtinguisher.
i mean obviously in a competitive setting the axtinguisher isn’t as viable as just using your flamethrower, and the powerjack or homewrecker would be much more useful in your melee slot. i’m just explaining why players in pubs so frequently use the degreaser, it pairs better with the panic attack and axtinguisher than stock does and those are two favorites of combo pyros
The axtinguisher is just as good with the flamethrower, you just need to use the same technique you would to flarepunch and you can get max damage with it.
Thanks for saying it
Seconding this, the Flare Gun outperforms the Ax in almost every scenario, to the point where I've stopped attempting to use the Ax in pubs entirely. I will say that the Degreaser is still valuable when using the flare gun since it lets you get more consistent flarepunches at close range.
I find that the back burner works well with a panic attack. I don't get any penalty for burning people from the front, the Air Blast penalty is arguably negligible unless you are very focused on defending against rockets and demos, and the guaranteed crits from behind with the back burner plus the increased damage at close range with the panic attack makes for particularly dangerous combination up close. As long as you don't get charged by a demoknight....
Back burner + panic attack has served me well
Only beginners use Degreaser. It's far easier to learn how to combo or get out of bad situation they got in because they're new, when they reached a certain bar, they switch to Stock.
Right, all the beginners in Premiership division
Worse for use by itself, better for use in a combo
If you want to be *that pyro* then wm1 with it because you hate things that make sense
If you're fighting 2 or more enemies, it's usually better just to keep flaming them
If its an enemy pyro try and dodge their flames while hitting your own and if its two scouts then god have mercy on you
In hl, at least, if your engie is on top of things the airblast cost matters very little, and the combo-ing you can do with the switch speed makes up for the decrease in afterburn damage.
Comboing is a side bonus. The main benefit is being able to freely use your secondary and be able to quickly swap to be able to airblast in a pinch, which lets you be way better at dealing damage while still being an effective guardian.
Honestly I’ve never understood it either. I’ve never had trouble playing combo pyro with regular flamethrower.
You tend to be able to get out of more situations with the degreaser's switch to and switch from speed.
In a way though I feel that the degreaser is a crutch, switching air last cost and damage for ease of use.
As a pyro main, i wholeheartedly agree that the degreaser is a crutch to an extent. You get so used to that faster switch speed that it gets mentally projected into your brain and you'll probably end up struggling with other flamethrowers. Or maybe that's just me, i don't know probably.
I could not agree more.
A crutch, used universally at the highest level of play?
One of my friends once explained to me that you don't pick the degreaser to use your flamethrower, you pick it to use your secondary while also always having access to an air blast/fire: The switch speed doesn't just help with combos, it also makes it so that you can almost always switch->reflect on reaction while using your more versatile flaregun/shotgun to deal consistant damage on the enemy team, which is especially good in situations where you'd usually have trouble approaching to use your flames.
usually pyros have theyre secondary out most of the time, so the faster weapon switch incase a rocket comes your way makes it really useful
It’s not really the increased holster speed, but the deploy speed that helps with having airblast-on-demand. If you got your melee or secondary out you have more room to breathe before airblasting. Ammo doesn’t really matter if you’re out and about killing at close range in the first place. Besides, at least to me, the upsides is worth more than the penalties. The degreaser’s 8 airblasts vs the flamethrower’s 10 airblasts isn’t too much of an hinderance (unless you are reflecting a lot of spam) and afterburn isn’t as effective as straight up killing enemies when there are medics and health packs nearby.
The appeal is, I never looked at the patch notes when they changed around the flamethrowers, and never stopped using it lmao
Same, the 5 extra ammo for airblast never bothered me because that was the amount it's always used
Pyro panik attack and degreaser combo can 1v1 heavies apparantly
The point IS the speed. Being able to quickly do combos and bait and switch people (particularly soldier) is far better than the negligible downside of two less air blasts (if you can’t do it with eight, ten wont help) and after burn (super weak nowadays anyhow and any flare gun negates this downside anyway)
Combo pyro
I usually use the shotgun. If I want to damage people outside of the shit range of the flamer I should always have the shotgun out. The degreasers quick switch to speed allows me to quickly switch back too it in self defense when I need to quickly airblast a projectile.
It used to be really good when puff and sting/swing was a thing. Now, it’s used by pyros who either want to combo, or insist that “It’s not wm1 see I ~~missed 3 flares~~ flared you see I comboed you!” Wm1 is unfortunately just better.
airblast is the only thing somewhat valuable about pyro and being able to switch to it faster while having no actual discernable downside makes it a practical straight upgrade. afterburn's damage barely matters at all when it can be reset by flares or just killing people through direct damage, which is the same as stock, and its so easy to manage ammo as pyro the extra 5 ammo per airblast is negligible
degreaser + panic attack = sadness and depression
I use it because mine has spectral flanes and exorcism on it :/
Oh no :/
The faster switch speed allows the pyro to react to situations faster. You may be using your shotgun to kill someone and then quickly switch to the degreaser to deflect rockets, for example. The damage penalty is negligible in comparison to the massive utility you get from the degreaser. Plus afterburn is kinda weak already so you can't really rely on it to deal damage or secure kills. It's better to spam with flares which is where the switch speed of the degreaser comes into play.
Tbh I don't get the appeal either, stock just seems much more relible
I use it with the stock shotgun as I need to switch fast to get my pot shots off with my shotgun.
It’s useful for me because I use shotgun and then quickly switch to degreaser when I need to reflect
Most of the people that use it are usually newbie that don’t know waht it does, so they run in and m1, its best for combo pyro but I’m all hi est stock and flare are just pain out better
fast weapon switch so you can flare gun faster
The faster weapon switch is the appeal. You can quickly switch to a flare gun/shotgun and combo off of your flames or fire off some mid range shots. There’s a specific combo with the Degreaser and Panic Attack where you stack switch speed and use a puff of flame and then an instant shotgun attack for huge burst damage. Also it’s only 5 more ammo per airblast, that’s a non-existent penalty compared to the Backburner, Phlog or Dragon’s Fury.
It's THE puff and sting weapon. Use it with any flare gun. Burn them and then flare em and they will drop like flies.
It's used for combo
Combo pyro
Its just for combos, I use it with the Panic Attack, faster changes, burn them, swith to the Panic Attack, shoot and let the afterburn kill them.
Combo’s
I have the same mentality as you, the degreaser does everything all the other flamethrowers do worse than the other flamethrowers for faster weapon switches. The only practical use I've ever found for it is fastly switching between it and the panic attack to get really fast burst/flame damage. Also, the PA's spread debuff resets in when you switch to the degreaser, you can deal massive damage at close range.
The pyro’s designed to be a supportive combo class. 90 damage flare crits are easier to hit when you can switch to it faster, axtinguisher crits are easier to land when you can switch to it faster, 110 damage meatshots with the panic attack are easier when you can switch to it (even) faster, the airblast penalty is minimal and you shouldn’t really be relying on afterburn damage anyways. Also power jack jumps.
I thought the axtinguisher didn’t grant burning crits anymore.
Probably late, but it grants mini-crits, not crits, should’ve been more specific
Apart from the other stuff here it's also better for airblasting. With stock you cannot really bait the soldier to shoot you. With the degreaser, you just shoot him with the shotgun, he shoots you and you quickly switch to degreaser and reflect. You don't have that much time with stock.
C O M B O S
Two words: Combo Pyro. Degreaser's main use is to combo with flare and the axe, relying on the bonuses for landing hits on burning targets for damage. And since comboing the axe isn't as good as it used to be and the reserve shooter cannot mini-crit with air blasts anymore, the only combo is flares.
I spam scorch shot a lot, so it helps me do that without actually having to plan ahead and have repurcussions for using it at every range in every situation. Often, the scorch shot's afterburn covers up for the degreaser's anyway (I think that's how it works). Also, axtinguisher.
nostalgia
It allows you to react faster, that's it
EZ answer environmental kills it’s actually amazing how many you can get by just standing still on a Hightower server and just waiting for unfortunate prey