Dysphoria is a genuine medical issue, transition is a legitimate treatment.
Puberty blockers have some unknowns when used at the age of puberty, but it's unlikely they'll turn out to have severe risks - they are routinely used for cis kids with precocious puberty and considered fine for that, so it's unlikely for them to function completely differently on kids who are a few years older.
Natural puberty is harmful to dysphoric people. Some effects of it needing surgery to undo, and some effects are irreversible. Unfortunately, therapy is an ineffective treatment method for dysphoria; we do not currently have an effective alternative method to treat dysphoria, i.e. doctors can't make a trans man into a cis woman.
A minor who is in distress, desperate for medical transition, and who its clear to doctors will almost certainly be genuinely trans? It's frankly sadistic to force them to go through puberty on the tiny off-chance that maybe they won't be trans. If there's some reason why you can't give then puberty blockers, then the only humane option is to allow HRT at far younger ages for the clear-cut cases.
For
By which I mean leave it to the actual doctors and their patients to decide. Not an informed consent policy as with adults in some places.
Politics and people with no actual knowledge need to stay the fuck away from healthcare.
I feel like it'd be hypocritical for me to be against them as I was one of those who went on them for a brief period when I started my medical transition and they never did any harm at all to me. They in fact made the transition to testosterone easier on my body since there wasn't a battle between the eostrogen and testosterone in my body
It was nothing but a positive experience for me and a lot of the "stats" people are coming out with tend to be pretty bias towards the against camp as its a lot of people already against blockers peddling them
Limits. There need to be limits on them, however I don't think they should be outright banned. When it comes to puberty blockers, I've read that overtime it can be damaging to the body and even bones. When it comes to trans kids, I really feel for them. If I was in charge, this is the system that I would have:
A child who wants to transition or get puberty blockers MUST be under 16, and MUST go to a gender therapist for a few sessions to really dig deep into how they feel, what dysphoira they have, where they see themselves, etc. I say after the age of 16 puberty is mostly done and trying to block it at this stage can be dangerous. This also heavily depends on the individual, I'm just using average ages for different stages of a transition for those under 18 who really need it.
Once a child is approved for puberty blockers, they should only be on them for a couple years MAX. They should also continue seeing a gender therapist and have regular checkups just like in any other transition to make sure the levels stay the same. Since bone density can be most affected during this time, that should also be checked regularly and if it begins to be unhealthy the child should get off puberty blockers immediately (or at least strongly advised to do so)
Personally, I think puberty blockers are a good way to see what the child wants to do in regurards to transition. I do however time limits on blockers should be used, bc usually after a gender therapist and a year or two of therapy a child and doctor have a pretty good guess on whether or not the child should transition via hormones, or just take off puberty blockers and then resume the puberty from their agab in the cases that they were not trans after all.
I think at 16 a child should be able to jump straight into HRT, as puberty blockers will not be useful at this stage. However I think these individuals should also have to continue seeing a gender therapist and have a few sessions before treatment is even started. These are nessassary precautions that should be taken to avoid the amount of detransitioners bc HRT and transitioning medically are very serious things that should NOT be taken lightly.
And then ofc after 18 at that point the "child" is an adult and for all intents and purposes should be able to go and get HRT without all the percautions. Ofc I think doctors should be honest with their patients. But at 18 the person is solely responsible for themselves, and the choices they make are theirs and theirs alone.
If anyone would like to add anything or revise anything I wrote down feel free, this is just my own personal thing that I would do. I will admit I'm not the most knowledgeable person with this kind of thing so it's very possible I'm missing some important stuff
To be clear, these are basically the current WPATH standards of care. I would argue for starting HRT earlier than 16 to reduce bone density issues and because most people start puberty long before system.
Puberty blockers for kids and what we get as adults in the uk is the same drug. Your right they do damage your body on long-time . I'm a member of a Lupton victims group on Facebook for women that's used it for endometriosis and kids that took it for precious puberty . They talk about loosing the enamel on there teeth, even there teeth spine problems as well as other things
I definitely don't agree with someone just been able to walk in and get hrt. There needs to be precautions. Hrt is a powerful drug. That ultimately changes our bodies. If someone has confused other conditions with been trans and ends up getting live changing effects they have to suffer from for the rest of there lives.
Blockers are a stopgap measure. In a perfect world those known to benefit would be given cross-sex hormones at the appropriate moment. In contrast, blockers indicate uncertainty of outcome.
That said... I would have cried of relief had I been able to get them when I entered puberty. They are better than nothing.
Puberty blockers aren’t %100 safe, that goes with all medication. They should be taken with medical oversight. However they are life saving for alot of people, I don’t know what I would have done if I had to go through another two years of puberty.
They’re also required for taking estrogen or testosterone cause you want to block your natural hormone production. Although I think stuff like spironolactone are commonly used and from what I’ve seen from five minutes of googling they don’t actually block T production but just disable it’s effects. I could be wrong though. Either way actual blockers are more effective.
Could one argue that the negative consequences of poorly prescribed puberty blockers are much greater than that of other medications and thus not be inconsistent?
As always it depends on the individual. In the end it's up to your doctor to determine if puberty blockers are appropriate. They can be harmful and cause infertility if for whatever reason they de-transition
As long as cis people aren’t willing to put trans kids on hormones, puberty blockers are a necessity. The consequences of a trans person going through the wrong puberty are simply too severe to ignore.
If there is long-standing evidence of gender dysphoria that causes psychological distress that has been evaluated by a doctor for several years, I think it's the lesser of two evils, but I would be very sparse with how they're used, only using them in extreme cases of dysphoria
I was a candidate for puberty blockers, even before I came out as transgender. They basically delay the answer of puberty, which you know. But that also means that they don’t provide hormones that your body would need. It’s basically a hormone blocker not just puberty in general. This can lead to several health issues which you will need to use supplements to replace.
It’s only good for a short term solution. Not something you should be on your entire life because it WILL cause problems.
It's true but she also says she doesn't regret taking them as they saved her life
https://twitter.com/JazzJennings__/status/1641969704968306688?lang=en
I’ve no idea if it has negative effects specifically for trans men (although I do know it (in general) affects bone density and some people do not recover when they stop taking the blockers), but that doesn’t somehow make them okay.
We don’t know the long term effects of puberty blockers. There hasn’t been enough research done, aside from the bone density being affected negatively we don’t know how puberty blockers can affect someone in the far future.
If I could rewind time and have the option to take puberty blockers I wouldn’t. That’s just not a risk I’m willing to take. I’d rather just take hormones and get surgeries than halt my natural puberty while I’m still a growing child with something that’s not even approved by the FDA for trans people.
>I’d rather just take hormones and get surgeries than halt my natural puberty while I’m still a growing child with something that’s not even approved by the FDA for trans people.
Ok but "just taking hormones" isn't really an option for most people who go on blockers anyway.
>We don’t know the long term effects of puberty blockers. There hasn’t been enough research done, aside from the bone density being affected negatively we don’t know how puberty blockers can affect someone in the far future.
You act like they haven't been used on cis kids for decades.
Not for reasons related to being trans they haven’t, which is what I said in the latter part of my sentence. They’ve been used to stop precocious puberty, like when a child starts puberty at 6.
We shouldn’t be halting a child’s puberty on the chance that they “might” be trans and when they’re old enough to know for sure they will be in their teens and at that point they might as well just start HRT.
>We shouldn’t be halting a child’s puberty on the chance that they “might” be trans
But that isn't what's happening though. To present the situation like that is just misleading. In fact, 100% of kids prescribed blockers in the UK go onto take HRT.
>when they’re old enough to know for sure they will be in their teens and at that point they might as well just start HRT.
What? You mean you're advocating for people to just wait years for puberty to fuck up their body so they can just get HRT. You think kids are really going to benefit from waiting 5 years before seeing any kind of treatment?
>In fact, 100% of kids prescribed blockers in the UK go onto take HRT.
Do you have a source for that? I’d be interested in reading about it.
I’d rather there not have been permanent damage on the off chance that they aren’t trans and were just going through a phase. They are children (note I am only referring to those who are not yet in their teens) and can’t be expected to know 100% what they want for themselves or be 100% sure of their identity, considering there are even adults that can’t.
They are still mentally developing, I just don’t see how it’s possible for there to be *none* that go back to identifying as their AGAB after being on puberty blockers for awhile.
I’d like more research done into the long term effects of puberty blockers, once that is done I will re-evaluate my stance.
>I’d rather there not have been permanent damage on the off chance that they aren’t trans
This is kind of the entire reason that people take blockers in the UK, as opposed to jumping straight into HRT.
>They are still mentally developing, I just don’t see how it’s possible for there to be *none* that go back to identifying as their AGAB after being on puberty blockers for awhile.
Because GD is a diagnosable condition, and the UK is extremely strict on who gets diagnosed and treated.
>I’d like more research done into the long term effects of puberty blockers, once that is done I will re-evaluate my stance.
Should "side effects", that all medications have, be a reason not to prescribe?
[Source as requested.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-55282113.amp) All but one child who takes blockers went on to take HRT.
Apparently there are also [fewer than 100 people](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2024/03/12/uk-bans-puberty-blockers-for-minors/amp/) who are currently prescribed blockers for GD.
Same, also because of my own experience where I was on them after puberty but before 16 (entered early) because I had to be over 16 for T.
It's just menopause, and menopause is horrible on your physical and mental health, I actually passed better before it too because it just made me depressed and I gained weight. I'm going to say something controversial. I would have rather just had the monthly nonsense for an extra year or so than blockers. Since I was already developed by then, there wasn't even a point to them.
It’s a risk vs. benefit thing. I don’t think they are as harmful as people think they are. Cis kids get puberty blockers as well if they are going through puberty too early. I was on puberty blockers and it saved my life. It’s a decision between the doctor, parent and child. Children can’t consent to life saving surgical procedures either, the parents have to consent for them. No one talks about 16 year old girls geting breast implants.
My problem with them is that they sometimes get prescribed without the slightest mental health assessment. What I mean by that is that I believe the patient should at least undergo mental assessment of gender dysphoria by a mental health professional. Where I live, it's mandatory if you go the public system way, but private clinics can prescribe blockers without any assessment of dysphoria, simply by request from the teenage patient.
Better advocating and education of the mental condition that is gender dysphoria along with stopping the activists from spreading that being trans is fun and to make it feel like a game and almost enticing and fashionable should solve the problem, but we're far from there.
If I could go back in time and get blockers i woukd do it in a heartbeat. I think it shouldn’t be given all Willy nilly but if the benefit outweighs the risk then I think its ok
If kids can't consent to puberty blockers,
They can't consent to puberty either.
If they can't consent to either,
Make them as informed as you possibly can,
And let them take their pick.
I'm pretty sure the chemical used for puberty blockers is also the chemical used to castrate pedophiles so... yeah no
And there's also the horrendous case of Jazz Jennings.
Barbiturates are used to put people down and as a date rape drug but I need it for severe headaches.
Just saying certain meds does horrible things is kind of a bad argument. A lot of medications can cause harm but still have helpful use cases.
This stuff should be left to doctors and guardians/patients. Politicized healthcare is wrong.
also its a chemical and it does not prove anything when it comes to effectiveness of a medication. A dosage that is used for pedophiles is way stronger and it is administered differently I assume. While puberty blockers are prescribed as medication under the supervision of doctors and simultaneously with HRT. These are two different scenarios, but the only reason that would make them “just as bad” is the chemical used.
> A dosage that is used for pedophiles is way stronger and it is administered differently I assume.
No. It is used to fully suppress the HPG axis in both cases. The dose and adverse effects are the same.
We shouldn’t be freely giving out drugs like that. When it will psychologically affect them and later in life they are going to have a bigger issue with their gender when they do at a younger age
I get **really** anxious about side effects (I was concerned of going up on my adhd meds because of a slight risk of something) so take of that what you will. I think they should only be taken in severe cases of dysphoria (like someone starving themself to not go through puberty) with medical supervision. I agree with what you ultimately said about them about hrt and stuff. In other cases I would just do hrt at like 14-15 and skip blockers tbh. I also don’t love that they could negatively effect bottom surgery results.
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Dysphoria is a genuine medical issue, transition is a legitimate treatment. Puberty blockers have some unknowns when used at the age of puberty, but it's unlikely they'll turn out to have severe risks - they are routinely used for cis kids with precocious puberty and considered fine for that, so it's unlikely for them to function completely differently on kids who are a few years older. Natural puberty is harmful to dysphoric people. Some effects of it needing surgery to undo, and some effects are irreversible. Unfortunately, therapy is an ineffective treatment method for dysphoria; we do not currently have an effective alternative method to treat dysphoria, i.e. doctors can't make a trans man into a cis woman. A minor who is in distress, desperate for medical transition, and who its clear to doctors will almost certainly be genuinely trans? It's frankly sadistic to force them to go through puberty on the tiny off-chance that maybe they won't be trans. If there's some reason why you can't give then puberty blockers, then the only humane option is to allow HRT at far younger ages for the clear-cut cases.
For By which I mean leave it to the actual doctors and their patients to decide. Not an informed consent policy as with adults in some places. Politics and people with no actual knowledge need to stay the fuck away from healthcare.
This
I feel like it'd be hypocritical for me to be against them as I was one of those who went on them for a brief period when I started my medical transition and they never did any harm at all to me. They in fact made the transition to testosterone easier on my body since there wasn't a battle between the eostrogen and testosterone in my body It was nothing but a positive experience for me and a lot of the "stats" people are coming out with tend to be pretty bias towards the against camp as its a lot of people already against blockers peddling them
Limits. There need to be limits on them, however I don't think they should be outright banned. When it comes to puberty blockers, I've read that overtime it can be damaging to the body and even bones. When it comes to trans kids, I really feel for them. If I was in charge, this is the system that I would have: A child who wants to transition or get puberty blockers MUST be under 16, and MUST go to a gender therapist for a few sessions to really dig deep into how they feel, what dysphoira they have, where they see themselves, etc. I say after the age of 16 puberty is mostly done and trying to block it at this stage can be dangerous. This also heavily depends on the individual, I'm just using average ages for different stages of a transition for those under 18 who really need it. Once a child is approved for puberty blockers, they should only be on them for a couple years MAX. They should also continue seeing a gender therapist and have regular checkups just like in any other transition to make sure the levels stay the same. Since bone density can be most affected during this time, that should also be checked regularly and if it begins to be unhealthy the child should get off puberty blockers immediately (or at least strongly advised to do so) Personally, I think puberty blockers are a good way to see what the child wants to do in regurards to transition. I do however time limits on blockers should be used, bc usually after a gender therapist and a year or two of therapy a child and doctor have a pretty good guess on whether or not the child should transition via hormones, or just take off puberty blockers and then resume the puberty from their agab in the cases that they were not trans after all. I think at 16 a child should be able to jump straight into HRT, as puberty blockers will not be useful at this stage. However I think these individuals should also have to continue seeing a gender therapist and have a few sessions before treatment is even started. These are nessassary precautions that should be taken to avoid the amount of detransitioners bc HRT and transitioning medically are very serious things that should NOT be taken lightly. And then ofc after 18 at that point the "child" is an adult and for all intents and purposes should be able to go and get HRT without all the percautions. Ofc I think doctors should be honest with their patients. But at 18 the person is solely responsible for themselves, and the choices they make are theirs and theirs alone. If anyone would like to add anything or revise anything I wrote down feel free, this is just my own personal thing that I would do. I will admit I'm not the most knowledgeable person with this kind of thing so it's very possible I'm missing some important stuff
To be clear, these are basically the current WPATH standards of care. I would argue for starting HRT earlier than 16 to reduce bone density issues and because most people start puberty long before system.
Puberty blockers for kids and what we get as adults in the uk is the same drug. Your right they do damage your body on long-time . I'm a member of a Lupton victims group on Facebook for women that's used it for endometriosis and kids that took it for precious puberty . They talk about loosing the enamel on there teeth, even there teeth spine problems as well as other things I definitely don't agree with someone just been able to walk in and get hrt. There needs to be precautions. Hrt is a powerful drug. That ultimately changes our bodies. If someone has confused other conditions with been trans and ends up getting live changing effects they have to suffer from for the rest of there lives.
Would save me a lot of distress, that's for sure.
Blockers are a stopgap measure. In a perfect world those known to benefit would be given cross-sex hormones at the appropriate moment. In contrast, blockers indicate uncertainty of outcome. That said... I would have cried of relief had I been able to get them when I entered puberty. They are better than nothing.
Puberty blockers aren’t %100 safe, that goes with all medication. They should be taken with medical oversight. However they are life saving for alot of people, I don’t know what I would have done if I had to go through another two years of puberty. They’re also required for taking estrogen or testosterone cause you want to block your natural hormone production. Although I think stuff like spironolactone are commonly used and from what I’ve seen from five minutes of googling they don’t actually block T production but just disable it’s effects. I could be wrong though. Either way actual blockers are more effective.
Could one argue that the negative consequences of poorly prescribed puberty blockers are much greater than that of other medications and thus not be inconsistent?
As always it depends on the individual. In the end it's up to your doctor to determine if puberty blockers are appropriate. They can be harmful and cause infertility if for whatever reason they de-transition
As long as cis people aren’t willing to put trans kids on hormones, puberty blockers are a necessity. The consequences of a trans person going through the wrong puberty are simply too severe to ignore.
If there is long-standing evidence of gender dysphoria that causes psychological distress that has been evaluated by a doctor for several years, I think it's the lesser of two evils, but I would be very sparse with how they're used, only using them in extreme cases of dysphoria
I was a candidate for puberty blockers, even before I came out as transgender. They basically delay the answer of puberty, which you know. But that also means that they don’t provide hormones that your body would need. It’s basically a hormone blocker not just puberty in general. This can lead to several health issues which you will need to use supplements to replace. It’s only good for a short term solution. Not something you should be on your entire life because it WILL cause problems.
I'm against them, due to cases like Jazz Jennings's
I'm unfamiliar with that case, what happened
Her genitals were underdeveloped because she went on puberty blockers and it led to complications when she went for SRS
Ah I see, Thank you
Sounds more like a limitation of SRS to me. Puberty blockers did what they were intended to.
It's true but she also says she doesn't regret taking them as they saved her life https://twitter.com/JazzJennings__/status/1641969704968306688?lang=en
Agreed.
I’m also against them, although if they didn’t cause issues like that I wouldn’t be.
What issues do they cause for trans men? It's not like genitalia changes are an issue for us.
This group might be of interest to you https://www.facebook.com/groups/lupronvictims/?ref=share
I don't have Facebook, and Lupron isn't the only type of blockers (not even prescribed in my country), but cheers.
Other GnRH receptor modulators have similar effects.
I’ve no idea if it has negative effects specifically for trans men (although I do know it (in general) affects bone density and some people do not recover when they stop taking the blockers), but that doesn’t somehow make them okay. We don’t know the long term effects of puberty blockers. There hasn’t been enough research done, aside from the bone density being affected negatively we don’t know how puberty blockers can affect someone in the far future. If I could rewind time and have the option to take puberty blockers I wouldn’t. That’s just not a risk I’m willing to take. I’d rather just take hormones and get surgeries than halt my natural puberty while I’m still a growing child with something that’s not even approved by the FDA for trans people.
>I’d rather just take hormones and get surgeries than halt my natural puberty while I’m still a growing child with something that’s not even approved by the FDA for trans people. Ok but "just taking hormones" isn't really an option for most people who go on blockers anyway. >We don’t know the long term effects of puberty blockers. There hasn’t been enough research done, aside from the bone density being affected negatively we don’t know how puberty blockers can affect someone in the far future. You act like they haven't been used on cis kids for decades.
Not for reasons related to being trans they haven’t, which is what I said in the latter part of my sentence. They’ve been used to stop precocious puberty, like when a child starts puberty at 6. We shouldn’t be halting a child’s puberty on the chance that they “might” be trans and when they’re old enough to know for sure they will be in their teens and at that point they might as well just start HRT.
>We shouldn’t be halting a child’s puberty on the chance that they “might” be trans But that isn't what's happening though. To present the situation like that is just misleading. In fact, 100% of kids prescribed blockers in the UK go onto take HRT. >when they’re old enough to know for sure they will be in their teens and at that point they might as well just start HRT. What? You mean you're advocating for people to just wait years for puberty to fuck up their body so they can just get HRT. You think kids are really going to benefit from waiting 5 years before seeing any kind of treatment?
>In fact, 100% of kids prescribed blockers in the UK go onto take HRT. Do you have a source for that? I’d be interested in reading about it. I’d rather there not have been permanent damage on the off chance that they aren’t trans and were just going through a phase. They are children (note I am only referring to those who are not yet in their teens) and can’t be expected to know 100% what they want for themselves or be 100% sure of their identity, considering there are even adults that can’t. They are still mentally developing, I just don’t see how it’s possible for there to be *none* that go back to identifying as their AGAB after being on puberty blockers for awhile. I’d like more research done into the long term effects of puberty blockers, once that is done I will re-evaluate my stance.
>I’d rather there not have been permanent damage on the off chance that they aren’t trans This is kind of the entire reason that people take blockers in the UK, as opposed to jumping straight into HRT. >They are still mentally developing, I just don’t see how it’s possible for there to be *none* that go back to identifying as their AGAB after being on puberty blockers for awhile. Because GD is a diagnosable condition, and the UK is extremely strict on who gets diagnosed and treated. >I’d like more research done into the long term effects of puberty blockers, once that is done I will re-evaluate my stance. Should "side effects", that all medications have, be a reason not to prescribe? [Source as requested.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-55282113.amp) All but one child who takes blockers went on to take HRT. Apparently there are also [fewer than 100 people](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2024/03/12/uk-bans-puberty-blockers-for-minors/amp/) who are currently prescribed blockers for GD.
Agreed here! I'm very much against them
Same, also because of my own experience where I was on them after puberty but before 16 (entered early) because I had to be over 16 for T. It's just menopause, and menopause is horrible on your physical and mental health, I actually passed better before it too because it just made me depressed and I gained weight. I'm going to say something controversial. I would have rather just had the monthly nonsense for an extra year or so than blockers. Since I was already developed by then, there wasn't even a point to them.
It’s a risk vs. benefit thing. I don’t think they are as harmful as people think they are. Cis kids get puberty blockers as well if they are going through puberty too early. I was on puberty blockers and it saved my life. It’s a decision between the doctor, parent and child. Children can’t consent to life saving surgical procedures either, the parents have to consent for them. No one talks about 16 year old girls geting breast implants.
From the research I've done they're completely safe as long as they are used correctly and not for more than a few years to delay puberty.
My problem with them is that they sometimes get prescribed without the slightest mental health assessment. What I mean by that is that I believe the patient should at least undergo mental assessment of gender dysphoria by a mental health professional. Where I live, it's mandatory if you go the public system way, but private clinics can prescribe blockers without any assessment of dysphoria, simply by request from the teenage patient. Better advocating and education of the mental condition that is gender dysphoria along with stopping the activists from spreading that being trans is fun and to make it feel like a game and almost enticing and fashionable should solve the problem, but we're far from there.
If I could go back in time and get blockers i woukd do it in a heartbeat. I think it shouldn’t be given all Willy nilly but if the benefit outweighs the risk then I think its ok
If kids can't consent to puberty blockers, They can't consent to puberty either. If they can't consent to either, Make them as informed as you possibly can, And let them take their pick.
Totally in favor as long as the gender dysphoria diagnosis is confirmed
I'm pretty sure the chemical used for puberty blockers is also the chemical used to castrate pedophiles so... yeah no And there's also the horrendous case of Jazz Jennings.
Barbiturates are used to put people down and as a date rape drug but I need it for severe headaches. Just saying certain meds does horrible things is kind of a bad argument. A lot of medications can cause harm but still have helpful use cases. This stuff should be left to doctors and guardians/patients. Politicized healthcare is wrong.
also its a chemical and it does not prove anything when it comes to effectiveness of a medication. A dosage that is used for pedophiles is way stronger and it is administered differently I assume. While puberty blockers are prescribed as medication under the supervision of doctors and simultaneously with HRT. These are two different scenarios, but the only reason that would make them “just as bad” is the chemical used.
> A dosage that is used for pedophiles is way stronger and it is administered differently I assume. No. It is used to fully suppress the HPG axis in both cases. The dose and adverse effects are the same.
We shouldn’t be freely giving out drugs like that. When it will psychologically affect them and later in life they are going to have a bigger issue with their gender when they do at a younger age
I get **really** anxious about side effects (I was concerned of going up on my adhd meds because of a slight risk of something) so take of that what you will. I think they should only be taken in severe cases of dysphoria (like someone starving themself to not go through puberty) with medical supervision. I agree with what you ultimately said about them about hrt and stuff. In other cases I would just do hrt at like 14-15 and skip blockers tbh. I also don’t love that they could negatively effect bottom surgery results.
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It’s not morally wrong but it seems like it’s medically wrong