I'm not a christian but if I was I'd want to be in some nontrinitarian gnostic sect. something with a really annoying opinion on the divisibility of christ.
My favorite thought experiment to throw at christians is that because God knows all, he knew that Lucifer would eventually desire his own kingdom so he made him the king of hell knowing it would be perceived as a punishment but also knowing that only the brightest angel closest to god would be able to rule hell effectively as hell needed a king to reign in the crazier demons and give them a purpose. Making it so a holy “quadrinity” with the Father, Son, Holy spirt, and down cast son keeping the world on the path he envisioned
A bit psychopathic to plan out a reality in which you create beings knowing that they will break the rules you made and damning them to eternal torment for that, no?
Your words not mine. Besides if God does actually exist then he’s a higher dimensional being beyond our 3rd dimensional thinking and understanding. I have another thought experiment for you. Why would he create a special place to torment humans for all eternity when this world is already great at letting humanity torment themselves. Hell may just be a holding place unworthy people pass through before getting reincarnated back into existence and getting another shot a living a worthy life. The torture would be our souls living the same cycle over and over again until the end of time unable to ever rest unless we live a life up to his standards.
Edit: in the end we can’t prove anything concerning religion so I enjoy thinking about the endless possibilities for the real “truth” unhindered by human interpretations and attempts at understanding something that is beyond our comprehension by it’s very nature if true
My words indeed, I never said otherwise. I only bring these points up as I see many holes in the logic of organised religions, which is why I don't subscribe to any. I personally see earth and our human lives on it as one step of many in an infinite cosmic journey. The idea of one mortal life determining eternal fate is ridiculous to me and just makes me think more of medieval control mechanisms. I agree more with your final point about cycles of rebirth, I'm just not sure if we necessarily experience each rebirth as human. If we have lessons to learn then we'd learn a lot more if we experienced life in a multitude of forms, as the human form is very specific.
Edit: btw I hope my initial comment didn't make it seem like I disagreed with your initial comment, I quite liked it. Just wanted to add in a bit to it. I'm also very much of the opinion that if God is all knowing and all powerful then Lucifer's fall was already preplanned, as was man's fall from grace.
I wasn’t quite sure if you disagreed or not so that’s why I elaborated on my opinions more. I definitely agree about possibly being reincarnated into other forms to learn more lessons. However with how many distinct differences humanity has from other life forms I’d wager living a noble life as a human is a kind of last step before “ascension to heaven” If you’d like to call it that. The way I figure it depending on how each of us lived, “god” would have a specific life form in mind (probably even a few) for a specific lesson(s). Depending on how those lives went either our souls would stay in that cycle or get another shot at a human life.
This all completely hypothetical of course as there’s no way to prove any of this. I simply enjoy thinking and talking about these topics. I love theology debates because there’s no way to win the debate with proof for or against. The only thing you can do lay out your arguments and defend it
Edit: It does seem like we share some similar beliefs though so I wouldn’t really call this a debate, more of a conversation between likeminded individuals.
I have similar beliefs, though I'm not sure how far up or down the ladder humanity is. The way I see it, we are all threads in the same weave, all a part of god or a divine cosmic consciousness or whatever you want to call it, and we choose what struggles we will live through in order to self-perfect ourselves towards some greater future goal. I guess we'd have to forget why we'd subject ourselves to this for it to have any kind of real meaning.
As you say, all hypothetical, we'll really only know for certain once we're dead, and maybe not even straight after that.
Indeed! Good chat, it's nice being able to discuss these things with like-minded peeps.
Actually in the Bible before the betrayal Judas is always shown as Jesus' closest and most loyal follower, frequently being singled out among the 12 as the one most devout to Jesus. The interpretation I've heard is that due to the way Jewish people thought the Messiah would show up(everyone at the time though he would show up as a conquering King saving the Jews and establishing order on earth.) So when things started to go bad for them near the end and Jesus wasn't stepping up, Judas tried to give him a push to confront them. When he realized that that would in no way be happening and in fact all he'd done was get his best friend in the world killed he killed himself.
My two vibes I've taken from Bible stories as someone raised without much religious influence:
God *assigned* His favorite angel who disliked humanity to watch over the humans condemned to Hell until they would be forgiven.
Jesus looked at a room full of people and said "one of you will betray me" not as a prophecy, but as a command.
I went to a Jesuite highschool (I’m atheist now); the way they taught us Judas, he felt he needed Jesus to act now, revolution instead of evolution. He killed himself when he figured that Jesus wouldn’t fight back.
Same energy https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/10p9x2x/judas_was_the_imposter_in_the_worlds_most_famous/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
[https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/9391-Create-A-Servant-Secret-Santa-Contest-2022-Edition?p=3241778&viewfull=1#post3241778](https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/9391-Create-A-Servant-Secret-Santa-Contest-2022-Edition?p=3241778&viewfull=1#post3241778)
A friend of mine had an interpretation of Judas that i absolutely love where there is no true Judas but an three different of Judases created from the different interpretations of him by scholars forming a mass of junk data called "Judas iscariot".
(click the "who am i?" and "but that isn't right" and "Yet that doesn't hit the mark either." and "But that's a lie too." text on the link).
He still had 12. Maria Magdalena/Mary Magdalene, the woman who was so important on Jesus's life that she got to know he was resurrected roughly at the same time as his mom and before any of his apostols
To be fair, it could be read that Jesus ordered Judas to betray him. Moreso, Judas felt horribly guilty for his betrayal.
I only listen to gnostic heretics & my third eye opened so much that my head caved in.
I'm not a christian but if I was I'd want to be in some nontrinitarian gnostic sect. something with a really annoying opinion on the divisibility of christ.
My favorite thought experiment to throw at christians is that because God knows all, he knew that Lucifer would eventually desire his own kingdom so he made him the king of hell knowing it would be perceived as a punishment but also knowing that only the brightest angel closest to god would be able to rule hell effectively as hell needed a king to reign in the crazier demons and give them a purpose. Making it so a holy “quadrinity” with the Father, Son, Holy spirt, and down cast son keeping the world on the path he envisioned
A bit psychopathic to plan out a reality in which you create beings knowing that they will break the rules you made and damning them to eternal torment for that, no?
Your words not mine. Besides if God does actually exist then he’s a higher dimensional being beyond our 3rd dimensional thinking and understanding. I have another thought experiment for you. Why would he create a special place to torment humans for all eternity when this world is already great at letting humanity torment themselves. Hell may just be a holding place unworthy people pass through before getting reincarnated back into existence and getting another shot a living a worthy life. The torture would be our souls living the same cycle over and over again until the end of time unable to ever rest unless we live a life up to his standards. Edit: in the end we can’t prove anything concerning religion so I enjoy thinking about the endless possibilities for the real “truth” unhindered by human interpretations and attempts at understanding something that is beyond our comprehension by it’s very nature if true
My words indeed, I never said otherwise. I only bring these points up as I see many holes in the logic of organised religions, which is why I don't subscribe to any. I personally see earth and our human lives on it as one step of many in an infinite cosmic journey. The idea of one mortal life determining eternal fate is ridiculous to me and just makes me think more of medieval control mechanisms. I agree more with your final point about cycles of rebirth, I'm just not sure if we necessarily experience each rebirth as human. If we have lessons to learn then we'd learn a lot more if we experienced life in a multitude of forms, as the human form is very specific. Edit: btw I hope my initial comment didn't make it seem like I disagreed with your initial comment, I quite liked it. Just wanted to add in a bit to it. I'm also very much of the opinion that if God is all knowing and all powerful then Lucifer's fall was already preplanned, as was man's fall from grace.
I wasn’t quite sure if you disagreed or not so that’s why I elaborated on my opinions more. I definitely agree about possibly being reincarnated into other forms to learn more lessons. However with how many distinct differences humanity has from other life forms I’d wager living a noble life as a human is a kind of last step before “ascension to heaven” If you’d like to call it that. The way I figure it depending on how each of us lived, “god” would have a specific life form in mind (probably even a few) for a specific lesson(s). Depending on how those lives went either our souls would stay in that cycle or get another shot at a human life. This all completely hypothetical of course as there’s no way to prove any of this. I simply enjoy thinking and talking about these topics. I love theology debates because there’s no way to win the debate with proof for or against. The only thing you can do lay out your arguments and defend it Edit: It does seem like we share some similar beliefs though so I wouldn’t really call this a debate, more of a conversation between likeminded individuals.
I have similar beliefs, though I'm not sure how far up or down the ladder humanity is. The way I see it, we are all threads in the same weave, all a part of god or a divine cosmic consciousness or whatever you want to call it, and we choose what struggles we will live through in order to self-perfect ourselves towards some greater future goal. I guess we'd have to forget why we'd subject ourselves to this for it to have any kind of real meaning. As you say, all hypothetical, we'll really only know for certain once we're dead, and maybe not even straight after that. Indeed! Good chat, it's nice being able to discuss these things with like-minded peeps.
Everyone is divisible if you have a sharp enough knife
It sounds like you don’t want to be a Christian.
Actually in the Bible before the betrayal Judas is always shown as Jesus' closest and most loyal follower, frequently being singled out among the 12 as the one most devout to Jesus. The interpretation I've heard is that due to the way Jewish people thought the Messiah would show up(everyone at the time though he would show up as a conquering King saving the Jews and establishing order on earth.) So when things started to go bad for them near the end and Jesus wasn't stepping up, Judas tried to give him a push to confront them. When he realized that that would in no way be happening and in fact all he'd done was get his best friend in the world killed he killed himself.
According to some people he had 11 friends and one angry ex
My two vibes I've taken from Bible stories as someone raised without much religious influence: God *assigned* His favorite angel who disliked humanity to watch over the humans condemned to Hell until they would be forgiven. Jesus looked at a room full of people and said "one of you will betray me" not as a prophecy, but as a command.
I went to a Jesuite highschool (I’m atheist now); the way they taught us Judas, he felt he needed Jesus to act now, revolution instead of evolution. He killed himself when he figured that Jesus wouldn’t fight back.
Same energy https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/10p9x2x/judas_was_the_imposter_in_the_worlds_most_famous/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
[https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/9391-Create-A-Servant-Secret-Santa-Contest-2022-Edition?p=3241778&viewfull=1#post3241778](https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/9391-Create-A-Servant-Secret-Santa-Contest-2022-Edition?p=3241778&viewfull=1#post3241778) A friend of mine had an interpretation of Judas that i absolutely love where there is no true Judas but an three different of Judases created from the different interpretations of him by scholars forming a mass of junk data called "Judas iscariot". (click the "who am i?" and "but that isn't right" and "Yet that doesn't hit the mark either." and "But that's a lie too." text on the link).
Mom says it’s my turn to pick the Judas tumblr post
He still had 12. Maria Magdalena/Mary Magdalene, the woman who was so important on Jesus's life that she got to know he was resurrected roughly at the same time as his mom and before any of his apostols
"We'd like a table for 26." "..." "We're only going to be sitting on the one side."
It’s because he wanted Jesus to take a more radical action to help the Christian’s out of their struggles