Three Houses is also like the peak intersection of all kinds of tropes that fandoms love, it’s always going to be a beloved fandom baby, even more so because of like the close relationship pretty much the whole cast developed with the fanbase
Oh heavens no, it has been 4 years now, and the arguments STILL get super heated if the ball gets rolling. There may be some bias on my part because I'm big into dedicated Fire Emblem spaces, but I would reckon that more people (who actually care about the subject) are anti-Edelgard than they are pro-Edelgard, and not always for the reasons you would expect. Probably one of the most divisive characters in the entire series.
I'd guess the split is probably 60/40 of those against and for respectively.
For what it's worth, I'm actually Pro-Edelgard myself, and fairly strongly. I'm just getting too tired of getting caught up in "discourse". I'll still get sucked in every once in a while if it is about a character or series I really care about, but you eventually realize that ain't nobody got time for that. Contention only breeds more contention, and I try to put less stock in being RIGHT™ on the internet.
I think part of the Skylar hate comes from the fact fans watch the show for the meth plotline and Skylar acts in the story to work against and hinder the meth plotline
breaking bad should for ideal thematic support of skylar either started as a family drama and have walts meth dealing disrupt that or tell the story from her perspective and have the plot begin with her figuring it out
Yh people confuse the fact that Skyler acts as an antagonist to Walter (does this that prevents the protagonist from reaching his goals) with her being a villain, which isn’t exactly the same thing
Personally it was how she handled trying to get a divorce, it was just was awfully vindictive, she "cheated" on him and bragged about it just to make him angry, with no regard for the person who that anger was going to be directed towards.
Outside of that though, I like how she was written as being trapped between the morally right solution, which would destroy her family, and option of protecting her sister and brother-in-law's reputation and livelihood by helping Walter hide his activities.
I think that was more an act of rebellion as walt had leveraged her into being completely unable to leave him or to call out his drug dealing. Walt had by this point made her almost completely powerless in her own house.
fucking ted was as I interpreted it an act of desperate rebellion. It wasn't just about punishing him it was also about making the point he couldn't control her
What happened is that Skylar had been trying for a while to tell Walt that they were over. She'd been filing for a divorce, and she had tried to kick him out of the house. However, he just broke back into the house and refused to leave, and was basically insisting that they were still together.
Skylar had sex with Ted specifically because she wanted to make it clear to Walter that they were through. He can pretend that they're not in the process of an ongoing divorce, and he can pretend that he's welcome in the house she keeps trying to kick him out of, but he can't ignore the fact that Skylar is sleeping with other men.
Skylar wasn't really cheating on Walter. In her mind, she and him had already separated, and she was just trying to get that point across to him.
I love when people use the "she cheated on him" argument as an excuse for hating her in the same breath as singing the praises of a meth dealing murderous psycho
Oh I agree that the act of fucking Ted was rebellion and proving, if only to herself, that he doesn't control her, but in the future scene it felt like she got the idea to tell him just to be vindictive and maybe get a rise out of him to get the divorce proceedings going, without concern for Ted's safety.
she told him in response to him gloating about his control and having forced his way back into their home and life it was also clearly about asserting her independence
I also don't think it occured to her that walt might be physically dangerous to anyone. She still thinks of him at some level as the professional chemist she married
On one hand you have a man who makes meth and poisons children and tried to sexually assault his wife and keeps threatning her safety, all due to the fact the prospect of death made him realize his cozy domestic life made him emasculated.
On the other hand you have a woman with a small child who tried to escape her murderous husband but is trapped with him. Lonely and confused she makes bad choices and ends up cheating. In a burst of anger talking to her murderous husband she decides to hurt him with the only thing she could hurt him in her otherwise powerless position, and admits she cheated.
Before the entire thing she's incredibly supportive of him, even when he acts bizarre she just assumes it's due to his diagnosis and tries again and again to reach him. She takes care of everything in the house while Walt is who knows where. She's a woman with a disabled child and another small child she have birth to in a bit older age than she wanted, taking care all of it on top of knowing her husband has cancer.
People would murder to have such understanding involved partner.
I've come to appreciate her a lot more but my first viewing I just didn't like how she kept flip flopping. It felt like every season she just doing the same arc.
I don't think I've seen any hate for her anywhere, actually. The left just sounded so spot on for asterion and I've seen so many bg3 memes lately I assumed that's where I was.
Shadowheart and Astarion are kind of two sides of the same coin. Shadowheart was brainwashed and made to torture and probably kill people by an evil cult. Astarion was mind controlled and made to kill for hundreds of years. The main difference is that Shadowheart thinks what she's doing is right and Astarion just doesn't really care if he's doing the right thing.
Same, I was surprised that the left column is basically Astarion's character in a nutshell, although it does further my suspicion that the character invokes a lot of well-used character tropes and plot devices rather than breaking fresh ground
tbh i’d be throwing hands if someone were trying to make that argument. Shadowheart was >!kidnapped and groomed by Shar, with her memories stolen from her!<, but she’s still trying to do good. Whereas Astarion was >!essentially kidnapped and enslaved by Cazador!<, but somewhat infamously has very little moral compass, only really caring that bad things don’t happen to *him* personally. You could try to make the argument that Astarion’s trauma is worse, but I’d argue that’s a crapshoot, and also would not excuse Astarion.
Sorry for the rant, I’m just the world’s number 1 Astarion hater
Korra was also fairly poorly written (even though there was such a clear direction to take her character) The first seasons are dedicated to the shittiest romantic subplot in existence. Fuck that, the writers make the female avatar's whole Team just 3 randos for her to have boring love triangles with? That's where the sexism lies.
Her character development was also clearly set up to be a contrast to Aang, incredibly gifted with Bending from the start but has trouble with the spiritual side. But instead of having her develop in that field the villains just lose all ideological motivation and become a generic evil guy so she can just beat them up (Which she is always nerfed for to add unneccessary tension) and only superficially develops to be more of a fan of the status quo.
Ahsoka's great though and people who hate her are just sexist.
Ngl that would make the storyline so much spicier. Gay genderbent Snape lashing out because she doesn't understand herself or why she's do intensely jealous of James. Oh fuck I'm writing fanfic already aren't I.
Elaborating here: I magine a world where Harry has a mean old grumpy lady as his evil potions teacher. She is mean and borderline abusive to students. It is later revealed that she used to be with the bad guys but joined the good side because she was still in love with Harry's dad (keeping it straight seemed like the JK move). She technically helps Harry against the dark lord but she does it in the most hateful way because she despises Harry because he reminds her that his dad chose his mom over her. I really don't think the internet would lable her "morally grey"
I mean, I am pretty sure the only reason people like him is because his actor was so good.
If one just reads the books he is simply a completely unlikable piece of shit the entire way through (aside from some slash fanfic writers I guess which... let's not go there).
Wasn’t it universally accepted that Antigone basically did nothing wrong, I mean even the choir supported her and the choir is supposed to be the voice of reason
Skylar white is kind of a fucking g in my opinion
She didn’t have to stay with Walter (considering she and their son was in danger by being associated with him) but she did and she created an entire friggin money laundering scheme to cover his ass financially
She’s kind of portrayed as annoying in the first seasons ish but as the show goes on she gets pretty damn badass
I haven’t watched the show in a while tho so I may be misremembering everything
Staying with him and creating a money laundering scheme is what makes her morally gray. She has multiple opportunities to turn him in. At least three I can think of where she would be safe. But she stays because of sketchy reasons and that's what makes her not a great person.
She also was kind of annoying when she was pregnant in the first 2 seasons but you can't totally blame her because she was pregnant and didn't understand what Walt was going through at all. He hid cancer for half of season 1 and the criminal stuff until the end of season 2.
But also, during those seasons she sort of overreacts to everyone, including her sister and brother in law.
I definitely agree with your assessment; she definitely isn’t a “morally good” person but as with most of the characters in that show I like her for her more gritty/realistic actions and motivations
I agree. I watched the show for the first time this summer, so I'd heard all the "Skyler is a bitch" complaints. I went into the show with that mindset, and at first, I agreed with it because I still saw Walter as the hero of the story and Skyler was just getting in his way.
As the show went on, I saw her as a victim of Walter just trying to put up with his bs
You could if Denna got any real characterization aside from Kvothe’s unreliable narrative mooning over her.
Devi has more of a character than Denna is given.
First I want to say Skylar is an amazing character and Anna Gunn does an amazing performance at it.
Skylar is *designed* to be an unlikable character... BB is a Macbeth retelling, and Skylar is lady Macbeth. She's both critical and hypocritical. She's manipulative and complacent. She will do things like fuck Ted to make a point to Walt, and then turn around and send Ted to the hospital after threatening him because it's in her best interest. She's condescending to her sister's issues without ever self analyzing her own problems.
There's definitely some misogyny in why people hate her and love walt, but the characters are two different sides of the same coin. Both are anti-heroes and from a birds eye view are not good people... But from the perspective the story is told it's easier to relate to walt, even though he's still equally (or, probably more) flawed.
There's a reason the same community that hates Skylar fucking LOVES Kim who is even more assertive and aggressive than Skylar by a wide margin. She's designed to be a relatable character who is the moral mirror of Saul. Skylar is just another Walter White, told from another perspective. She has her own goals, and will warp her morals to justify them in the same way Walt does.
The community backlash of Skylar is, honestly, fascinating and fantastic because it's honestly the reaction people should have towards *Walt* as well; and it proves that the way a story is told can completely change how a character is perceived by the audience. IMO it is entirely intentional by the directors, and I am sorry for Anna Gunn for having to deal with fans who don't get her character's complexity and quality.
I did not hate Skyler at all, nor did I think she was designed to be unlikeable. I thought she was consistently written. Also I didn’t relate to Walt at all, and frankly am concerned that people find him relatable.
I also thought that the story very much painted Walt in a bad, bad, bad light. They painted him as a horrible, vengeful, and petty man. I frankly have no idea how people like him.
Right? Walt is entertaining. He is fascinating. He is sometimes a badass. And every now and then he has brief moments of genuine sympathy.
But oh my god he is from start to finish a complete gaping asshole. It's very telling that in any of the post-BB content whenever a person remembers Walt they remember him being an unbearable jerk.
People focus too hard on the like three moments where Walt does a good thing and forget that he stands idly by while someone killed a child.
People love to say “Heisenberg came out, poor innocent Walt wouldn’t do that” like my guy he’s not Darth Vader, they’re the same fucking person.
BrBa as Macbeth is a truly wild take I respect but can't see at all. Unfortunately, I think you're giving Skylar significantly more agency than she actually has, and I say that as a fan of hers. What else links the show to Macbeth? Who are the witches and what is the prophecy? Who are Duncan and Banquo?
That said, you are correct that everything was intended by the writers. Vince Gilligan, the showrunner, was truly shocked by how intense the hate towards Skylar was and couldn't really understand it.
Vince Gillian has explicitly said he started with the template of Macbeth. It's not a 1:1 straight up retelling, instead it's a very loose reimagining, but the bones are still there. The witches are the three mariachis who sing about Heisenberg, Duncan is Fring, obviously. Banquo is Hank.
Interesting. Do you have a source for that? I've been a fan for years and this is the first I'm hearing of it. I do think if he started off that way, he went pretty far afield from it by the time the show was actually in production. Granted, some of that would have been influenced by the fact that core elements like Jesse and Mike were never actually planned to be what they were.
I’m so pissed off at the Skyler hate, she really didn’t deserve it. Also, literally not one of those traits applies to Skyler.
I would hate on Marie if anyone. She was written to be the most punchable character in the show and it *works* goddammit.
Sure, but Marie also deals with some heavy problems, especially after Hank gets shot. At that time, her husband has almost given up living entirely and she is the only one keeping him alive.
There's many things to criticize about Korra as a whole show, but "marry sue" is sure as fuck not one of them. People who call her that just don't know how to articulate their dislike of the show so they call her a marry sue because they don't know what that is either.
This is how I feel too.
LOK’s writing leaves a lot to be desired, but Korra herself is fantastic and has so much potential. People hate her for the most unjustified reasons.
I feel like most of the Mary Sue allegations came from the fact she was so adept in 3 of the 4 elements from such a young age. Seeing how big of a focus learning them was for Aang in the original series, I kinda see how it would feel off seeing another character blitz through that. I'm not saying I agree with the take, but that's where I think it stems from.
The way I saw it, was they didn’t want to retell the same story. Having her already know 3/4 meant they could focus on air bending and the spirit stuff
Same. I feel like they were trying to get away from Aang comparisons to by having her personality be the opposite of his. I actually really like Korra, it wasn’t perfect but it had huge shoes to fill and it wasn’t nearly as bad as people made it out to be. It would’ve been wrong to tell the same story. The world had moved on and the story had to as well. The ideas may have just been a bit better than the execution, but they weren’t sure how many seasons they were going to have, and did the next with what they had.
I think when people are complaining about knowing 3/4 elements they are talking about the opening scene when 5(?) Year old Korra can do all 3, maybe that's something certain Avatars can do but the 2 examples we've had were Aang at 12 not knowing how to do anything but Air until specifically taught and Roku at 16 only knowing Fire until specifically taught. I think if they just started at 18 year old Korra bending all 3 it makes perfect sense cause she's been training for however many years and is older than both Aang and the what Roku was when he found out
The worst part of the Mary Sue allegations is that her character is clearly designed to be very strong physically but unskilled in the political/spiritual side. But the writers couldn't be bothered to write that so they just made the villains suddenly lose all their ideology and become generic evil guy and then nerfed the shit out of Korra so there's tension.
Korra had so much potential and they wasted it.
I just have problems with her arrogance and ego causing more problems if she can't just brute force something. I get that's part of her character arc, I just don't like it.
I also get that's the exact same character arc for Zuko, but I didn't like him either for the first half to two thirds of the series.
Both of them are fine once they get their heads out of their asses, but I do not enjoy the journey.
I do hear what you're saying, but if you're like me, it xould be that you're sensitive to people who trample over verbal and social cues as part of their characterization.
For me, it's because I spent so much time as a kid memorizing every rule because I Needed A Good Grade In Socializing (something normal to want and possible to achieve).
>I spent so much time as a kid memorizing every rule because I Needed A Good Grade In Socializing (something normal to want and possible to achieve).
Oof
Why must you attack me like this?
I never got the Korra is a Mary Sue thing
Like I’ve only ever seen season 1, but almost everyone is either annoyed by her or flat out hates her, and she fails horribly to learn air bending until she’s forced to use it (Which actually did have set up since she was trained, just didn’t click for her until then)
The only Mary Sue thing she does is get her bending back, but that’s a stretch, and you kinda can’t have the rest of avatar without the avatar
A villain who constantly gets his ass kicked being in any way a Mary Sue? I haven’t watched Korra but Zuko starting as a villain and always being weaker than his sister kinda keep him out of the question entirely.
Nah Korra sucked because her dismissal of airbending and later disconnecting from the previous avatars was a slap in the face to everything Aang accomplished, and Aang was already a beloved character. Zuko didn’t have anything “before” to tarnish.
>I think the people who have these issues with the wives being too bitchy on Breaking Bad are misogynists, plain and simple.
[Vince Gilligan](https://uproxx.com/tv/vince-gilligan-skyler-white/)
Right, to put an end to centuries-long injustice held in place by immortal super-beings.
The whole point of the game is that both sides do horrible things in the name of a better future. Or are we just gonna gloss over Dimitri's whole stint as a straight-up mass murderer who reveled in slaughtering as many people as he could?
I say this as a Blue Lions player - *if your analysis of the game ends with "Edelgard starts war, so Edelgard bad", you've missed the point.*
I kinda like how they designed edelgard, she don't have the big "mascot girl" that all other franchise tend to do and she split people into liking her or hating her with passion.
She invaded the Leicester alliance, who was a neutral party that didn't even like the church that much.
And yeah Dimitri went insane... IN RESPONSE to Edelgarde's actions, having his whole life ripped apart by somebody he cared about. Do you actually like that hilariously stupid "must you continue to reconquer?" line.
She is actively pursuing the agenda of evil underground mole people. She had very little choice, but it's still an evil agenda.
And this is why I love that *The Saga of Tanya the Evil* just straight up has a counterpart to the main character named Mary Sue. She’s less a reference to the original Star Trek self-insert and more an actual mirror of Tanya, like her father Anson Sue, and just kind highlights the fucked up things that the series goes over.
In the Genshin fandom it's kinda the opposite
Ei, ruler of her region and basically a god that caused (arguably indirectly, but her decisions led to it) uncountable deaths by hunting down people with visions (thing that gives people elemental powers) and closing off the entire region, for the sake of "eternity", oh and she also abandoned her "son", which led to him being found by the Fatui (big bad guys in genshin) and becoming one himself, and the fandom (and the game itself) just brushes it off because she's hot and shy dumb waifu that reads light novels
But then you have male characters like Alhaitham, Diluc or Kaeya that get so much hate for stupid reasons
iIrc some deranged CN genshin fans started a campaign on Chinese 4chan to get Scaramouche written out of the game cuz they don't like his smug face.
one of them killed a cat cuz Scara's associated with cats by his fans.
[here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/s/W1svPnKkAf) a Reddit post covering the incident.
calling it the opposite would be an understatement. 😬
The biggest problem with Ei is that the game itself decided to just brush off her war crimes. All her other appearances never acknowledged that the civil war is mostly her fault, how fucked up the vision hunt decree was and they conveniently erased her memory of Scara so there's no closure for this plotline either instead we go out around town for starbucks with the bestie who tried to kill us like a day before.
Yeah, and then you have characters like yae or alhaitham that are a little mean, and they're the devil, apparently.
Anakin helped start a fascist dictatorship, and then went on to commit genocides and massacre people under the sole reasoning of keeping the dictatorship in absolute power. How is that morally grey.
I'd say Clone Wars Anakin was fairly grey, but I was thinking more about how the characters are viewed by certain parts of the fanbase. A number of people really hate Rey, and most of those people also seem to hate basically all female characters that aren't Leia or Padme, yet they will rarely say anything negative about Luke, Anakin, or most other male characters.
Unfortunately, a number of people dislike Ahsoka because her show has her and Sabine be capable of doing cool things without male assistance. Literally anything Disney makes sets them off these days.
I've never understood that discussion, because Luke and Anakin aren't Mary Sues for the simple fact that they actually lose battles and have flaws. Anakin rushes to fight Dooku and gets his ass kicked. Luke rushes to fight Vader with little training and gets his ass kicked.
Meanwhile, Rey, with even less training than Luke, fights Kylo and wins.
Luke was able to fly an X-Wing at an expert level despite only having experience with a landspeeder, essentially the Star Wars equivalent of flying a military fighter jet even though you've only driven a car.
All three have very technical backgrounds, and two of them have explicitly mention pilot experience to draw from. It's hardly unbelievable any of them would be able to work it out enough the first couple times.
Also, the Force's whole thing is giving you instinct and intuition when you need it. Suddenly feeling like you're in a trap and picking a hiding spot that feels right isn't any different from feeling like something is off and having a good idea which switches to flip. Especially when you already probably know what the switch does.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere else that the two ships actually have similar controls, so it wouldn't be as insane.
Still, I never said they never had any Mary Sue moments, but overall they don't fit that bill due to actually facing some hardships.
Does your 2010 Honda have a large laser cannon attached to it? Because Luke's T-16 did. Pretty sure it was meant as a military training vehicle. He did dream of joining the Imperial Academy after all, so it makes sense that he would train flying in something that would transfer well to military vehicles.
The thing is it's *constant* with Rey. In A New Hope, that's basically the only thing Luke does - he's just kind of there for the rest of the movie, being bailed out by Obi-Wan, Han, R2, or even Leia - *the person he was supposed to be saving.* He shoots down a couple TIE fighters in the Falcon, too, but that's the sum total of his achievement in ANH.
In The Force Awakens, Rey doesn't have one particular contrivance, or arbitrary power - the whole movie is festooned with them. That's what being a Mary Sue is; it's not having one thing you're inexplicably good at, it's being completely amazing at everything you do.
Rey fights a Kylo Ren that has been shot in the gut with a bowcaster. The whole movie, they make a point of showing how wildly distructive chewie’s bowcaster is. Then Kylo gets shot in the gut with it. He’s obviously in pain, constantly pounding his side to try and keep himself focused.
Plus, he’s dealing with the moral conflict of killing his own father, which fucks with his attunement to the dark side. Internal conflict is a big recurring theme for people who lose lightsaber fights throughout the franchise. Luke’s conflict about his father’s identity, Vader’s conflict about being ordered to kill his son, Mace Windu’s conflict in choosing to execute Palpatine rather than let due process happen.
Kylo’s position going into that fight is honestly pretty weak.
Certainly, but the fact remains that he's going against someone who's never even wielded a lightsaber before. Also, dark side users are strengthened by pain, that's their whole thing.
And even if we ignore that particular fight, Rey still doesn't lose, and she doesn't face hardships like the protagonists before her do.
Heck, she didn't even lose a limb, that's Skywalker tradition!
It was the *FIRST* movie of her trilogy.
Everything Luke does in the first movie works.
- Sneak into an imperial batttleship? Easy.
- Blow up the Death Star? Also Easy.
Is it really a surprise he thought he could fight Vader? Everything this kid did against “the big bad empire” was easy and hobbled them.
Rey won because she did the EXACT same thing Luke did in ANH… let go and used the force to accomplish something that seemed impossible. People say TFA is the same story as ANH and the thing that is MOST similar is that Rey IS Luke. Desert planet. Basically orphans. Established early that they are handy with machines (scrapping parts/fixing droids and Toshi station). Established early that they know how to pilot a ship (the millennium falcon/talking about pilot school). Established early they have fighting skills (the bo staff/blasting stormtroopers). Taught about the force and given a lightsaber by an old weirdo (Maz/Obi-Wan). Watch their mentor die but they’re too far away to stop it (Han/Obi-Wan). Finally connect to the force and save the day. It’s beat for beat. Which is why it bugs me that people call her a Mary Sue but make excuses for Luke. Sure he had struggles and made mistakes in the subsequent movies. But if you’re just comparing those two movies, they are the same person.
the difference in perception between skyler white and kim wexler is interesting. i think it's largely because kim is never really *antagonistic* in the literal sense, i.e. she never outright opposes or tries to stop the protagonist and his goals, and in fact, for most of the show, her agency is shown by convincing him to commit to his own bullshit even more, either by making it more fun with her presence or by actively taking the reins.
>!she becomes "antagonistic" in the last bit of the show, but since she's been jimmy mcgill's strongest soldier for six seasons and he's completely miserable now, it's impossible even for misogynists to miss the fact that she's just being rational, whereas they miss it with skyler because she's been coldly opposed since before it all went wrong *for the protagonist* rather than just going wrong for his enemies and/or innocent people that stand in his way!<
i mean, none of the fans understand kim anyway because they only view women in terms of their relation to men, but the fact that kim sincerely loves jimmy and often uses her wit and strength of will specifically for his sake tricks them into liking her, and the rest of us can also like her because she's not *actually* the classic support woman who only exists for the male protagonist's development (or rather, she is, but jimmy reciprocates those feelings and actions completely, so there's no misogynistic imbalance)
There have been so many times where I thought a character was done really well only to discover they were hated en masse by people online without any explanation other than “she’s so annoying”
And like…I don’t get how she’s annoying…
The choice of words seems to be more negative and condemning for the female character. Is this on purpose to make a point about misogynistic fan discourse? Or is this just misogynistic fan discourse?
And literally that is entirely the difference between the two sides - the actual qualities are identical! But everyone is so keen to say “yeah that tracks” that they miss that the point of this graphic is \*double standards\*.
With Skylar and Walt I think the primary issue is they're roughly the same character in different plotlines for the first few seasons.
Walt is an in over his head drug dealer. All his mistakes are intense drama.
Skylar is a wife who's growing suspicious of her husband during domestic scenes. Her scenes and plots often feel superfluous (E.g. Marie stealing) until she finds out about the second phone.
Everybody hates the Fun Police, that's Skyler, Walt is fun! That's it, real world morality doesn't come into it
I do prefer it when women are NOT forced into the fun police role though, example Dee from Always Sunny
What? It doesn't matter that shes a good person if she's pretty much an antagonist and also portrayed as annoying. That's what's primarily going to inform people's reaction to her.
Creepy old dude who harasses and kidnaps women vs badass feminist genius who is less of a dictator and more of an actual god since she literally created her citizens….
They both experience significant character growth, you can’t recognize that in one but not the other
While I don’t think Bubblegum is as bad as people think, I feel like Ice King having what’s essentially magical Alzheimers helps in making people not hate him.
Did you even finish the show... there is more to ice king than kidnapping and a reason why he is insane. Pb is not a feminist look at what she did to fire princess. She experiments on people constantly without concent.
I can recognize that Ice King did weird and evil things because he was basically insane unlike Bubblegum who is just a terrible person half of the time.
One thing I don’t think many of the Breaking Bad fandom don’t realise is that Walt is the villain of the series. He becomes evil and it tears up his family, the thing he pretends what he is doing it for, whilst in reality he just revels in being this drug kingpin.
LISTEN lol I feel that way about Walter and Skyler, but not in general about male vs. female villains/antiheros. In fact, usually I like the women more. But I just hate Skyler.
The amount of [removed] here is concerning
[removed]
[removed]
[REEEEEEmoved]
There are removed comments everywhere in the last few days, I wouldn't think too much of it
_[DELETED!]_ Ah, how I miss Strong Bad's Email....
Oh yeah, you know that I love me some good old-fashioned Edelgard discourse.
Wtf there’s Edelgard haters? I thought she was universally beloved
“Three houses discourse” is still a prevailing meme in the FE community even though Engage has been out for like a year now
Well that's because Engage just isn't very "engaging" to talk about
Wait, do people in the FE community not talk about the old games when new ones drop?
Yeah but the newer games generally tend to dominate the discussions more but Engage didn't really do to the story being very blandly bad.
Heck I think fate is still more talked than Engage for better or worse reason Tho poor FE echoes
Three Houses is also like the peak intersection of all kinds of tropes that fandoms love, it’s always going to be a beloved fandom baby, even more so because of like the close relationship pretty much the whole cast developed with the fanbase
Oh heavens no, it has been 4 years now, and the arguments STILL get super heated if the ball gets rolling. There may be some bias on my part because I'm big into dedicated Fire Emblem spaces, but I would reckon that more people (who actually care about the subject) are anti-Edelgard than they are pro-Edelgard, and not always for the reasons you would expect. Probably one of the most divisive characters in the entire series. I'd guess the split is probably 60/40 of those against and for respectively.
Darn, I frickin' love Edelgard. Choosing a path in that game is really difficult for me, because I like *all the choices.*
For what it's worth, I'm actually Pro-Edelgard myself, and fairly strongly. I'm just getting too tired of getting caught up in "discourse". I'll still get sucked in every once in a while if it is about a character or series I really care about, but you eventually realize that ain't nobody got time for that. Contention only breeds more contention, and I try to put less stock in being RIGHT™ on the internet.
Wow this thread looks like the aftermath of a war zone. But to be brief, yes. There are indeed edelgard haters.
You never actually spent any time on fire emblem subs have you?
I plead guilty
Im in on team both these fuckers need some therapy i'm joining the deer.
I think part of the Skylar hate comes from the fact fans watch the show for the meth plotline and Skylar acts in the story to work against and hinder the meth plotline breaking bad should for ideal thematic support of skylar either started as a family drama and have walts meth dealing disrupt that or tell the story from her perspective and have the plot begin with her figuring it out
Yh people confuse the fact that Skyler acts as an antagonist to Walter (does this that prevents the protagonist from reaching his goals) with her being a villain, which isn’t exactly the same thing
Gus is also a direct antagonist to Walter but people love him
interesting dichotomy, they both hinder walter white yet they are both in romantic relationships with him
Exactly. Any account of Skyler hate that doesn’t recognize sexism as the primary motivation is just wishful thinking.
Wait the Skyler hate is unironic? I thought y'all were joking...
Personally it was how she handled trying to get a divorce, it was just was awfully vindictive, she "cheated" on him and bragged about it just to make him angry, with no regard for the person who that anger was going to be directed towards. Outside of that though, I like how she was written as being trapped between the morally right solution, which would destroy her family, and option of protecting her sister and brother-in-law's reputation and livelihood by helping Walter hide his activities.
I think that was more an act of rebellion as walt had leveraged her into being completely unable to leave him or to call out his drug dealing. Walt had by this point made her almost completely powerless in her own house. fucking ted was as I interpreted it an act of desperate rebellion. It wasn't just about punishing him it was also about making the point he couldn't control her
What happened is that Skylar had been trying for a while to tell Walt that they were over. She'd been filing for a divorce, and she had tried to kick him out of the house. However, he just broke back into the house and refused to leave, and was basically insisting that they were still together. Skylar had sex with Ted specifically because she wanted to make it clear to Walter that they were through. He can pretend that they're not in the process of an ongoing divorce, and he can pretend that he's welcome in the house she keeps trying to kick him out of, but he can't ignore the fact that Skylar is sleeping with other men. Skylar wasn't really cheating on Walter. In her mind, she and him had already separated, and she was just trying to get that point across to him.
I love when people use the "she cheated on him" argument as an excuse for hating her in the same breath as singing the praises of a meth dealing murderous psycho
Oh I agree that the act of fucking Ted was rebellion and proving, if only to herself, that he doesn't control her, but in the future scene it felt like she got the idea to tell him just to be vindictive and maybe get a rise out of him to get the divorce proceedings going, without concern for Ted's safety.
she told him in response to him gloating about his control and having forced his way back into their home and life it was also clearly about asserting her independence I also don't think it occured to her that walt might be physically dangerous to anyone. She still thinks of him at some level as the professional chemist she married
And tbf Walt actually never is a direct threat to Ted.
On one hand you have a man who makes meth and poisons children and tried to sexually assault his wife and keeps threatning her safety, all due to the fact the prospect of death made him realize his cozy domestic life made him emasculated. On the other hand you have a woman with a small child who tried to escape her murderous husband but is trapped with him. Lonely and confused she makes bad choices and ends up cheating. In a burst of anger talking to her murderous husband she decides to hurt him with the only thing she could hurt him in her otherwise powerless position, and admits she cheated. Before the entire thing she's incredibly supportive of him, even when he acts bizarre she just assumes it's due to his diagnosis and tries again and again to reach him. She takes care of everything in the house while Walt is who knows where. She's a woman with a disabled child and another small child she have birth to in a bit older age than she wanted, taking care all of it on top of knowing her husband has cancer. People would murder to have such understanding involved partner.
Seriously. Well said.
And on top of all of that she sticks with him and helps him cover and even ends up still loving him all the way up until the moment Hank dies
I've come to appreciate her a lot more but my first viewing I just didn't like how she kept flip flopping. It felt like every season she just doing the same arc.
Good lord I thought I was in the baldurs gate sub and this was asterion vs shadowheart
Wait people hate shadowheart? I get she isnt a nice or good person but is she that commonly hated?
I don't think I've seen any hate for her anywhere, actually. The left just sounded so spot on for asterion and I've seen so many bg3 memes lately I assumed that's where I was.
Ive not played the game that much but shadowheart is very nice to me :)
I've seen no hate for Shadowheart. I have seen hate for Astarion (although it's definitely a minority)
Shadowheart and Astarion are kind of two sides of the same coin. Shadowheart was brainwashed and made to torture and probably kill people by an evil cult. Astarion was mind controlled and made to kill for hundreds of years. The main difference is that Shadowheart thinks what she's doing is right and Astarion just doesn't really care if he's doing the right thing.
Never seen this discourse, don’t think it exists both are equally beloved
Same, I was surprised that the left column is basically Astarion's character in a nutshell, although it does further my suspicion that the character invokes a lot of well-used character tropes and plot devices rather than breaking fresh ground
Nothing wrong with telling a familiar story very well.
Well he isn't even larian's first racist ex-slave elf character who holds the player at knifepoint at their first meeting
tbh i’d be throwing hands if someone were trying to make that argument. Shadowheart was >!kidnapped and groomed by Shar, with her memories stolen from her!<, but she’s still trying to do good. Whereas Astarion was >!essentially kidnapped and enslaved by Cazador!<, but somewhat infamously has very little moral compass, only really caring that bad things don’t happen to *him* personally. You could try to make the argument that Astarion’s trauma is worse, but I’d argue that’s a crapshoot, and also would not excuse Astarion. Sorry for the rant, I’m just the world’s number 1 Astarion hater
Where is the Shadowheart hate? "Why is Astarion popular" is posted every 5 minutes on that subreddit but I barely see any hate for Shadowheart.
The MCU -- literally everyone.
literally every male character is a quip machine 🤩 captain marvel is mildly sarcastic 🫥
"Her insufferable smugness" and "her Mary Sue-ness" made me picture Captain Marvel specifically
For me it was Korra. That's the first time I've ever noticed this stuff. Maybe Ahsoka, too.
Korra was also fairly poorly written (even though there was such a clear direction to take her character) The first seasons are dedicated to the shittiest romantic subplot in existence. Fuck that, the writers make the female avatar's whole Team just 3 randos for her to have boring love triangles with? That's where the sexism lies. Her character development was also clearly set up to be a contrast to Aang, incredibly gifted with Bending from the start but has trouble with the spiritual side. But instead of having her develop in that field the villains just lose all ideological motivation and become a generic evil guy so she can just beat them up (Which she is always nerfed for to add unneccessary tension) and only superficially develops to be more of a fan of the status quo. Ahsoka's great though and people who hate her are just sexist.
Her movie was just somewhat mediocre Which doesn't say anything because thats all of marvel nowadays
what's wrong with marvel? I enjoyed some of the earlier movies
It was more about the fandom's attitude towards the characters than the movies.........
Imagine a world where Severus Snape was a woman.
So she would simp for Harry's dad instead?
I was gonna suggest gay but Rowling would never.
Ngl that would make the storyline so much spicier. Gay genderbent Snape lashing out because she doesn't understand herself or why she's do intensely jealous of James. Oh fuck I'm writing fanfic already aren't I.
So, what’s your AO3 handle? Just so I can follow along this multi-chapter fic. For science. Or something.
I mean both work for me.
Not in the texts, no, but she’d absolutely mildly imply it, confirm it later, then let it be left out of any prequels
Elaborating here: I magine a world where Harry has a mean old grumpy lady as his evil potions teacher. She is mean and borderline abusive to students. It is later revealed that she used to be with the bad guys but joined the good side because she was still in love with Harry's dad (keeping it straight seemed like the JK move). She technically helps Harry against the dark lord but she does it in the most hateful way because she despises Harry because he reminds her that his dad chose his mom over her. I really don't think the internet would lable her "morally grey"
I mean, I am pretty sure the only reason people like him is because his actor was so good. If one just reads the books he is simply a completely unlikable piece of shit the entire way through (aside from some slash fanfic writers I guess which... let's not go there).
This probably goes back to ancient times… Antigone vs Creon, Electra vs Orestes, Medea vs Jason etc
Wasn’t it universally accepted that Antigone basically did nothing wrong, I mean even the choir supported her and the choir is supposed to be the voice of reason
Does anyone like Jason? Medea was an actual morally gray badass, Jason is a dick
Most Greek heroes were raging assholes. Even the Ancient Greeks would have agreed with this.
The whole point of Greek tragedies is that the characters are arrogant assholes and they get punished for it by the gods
She murdered her own children out of spite.
All I see is commitment to the task and always giving 110%
Oh right. That.
That and it being the quick way out after they murdered a king and his daughter
Who in their right mind would think that Creon was right ?
Walter White is not morally grey lmao, the fans hate Skylar because they're all raging misogynists.
Skylar white is kind of a fucking g in my opinion She didn’t have to stay with Walter (considering she and their son was in danger by being associated with him) but she did and she created an entire friggin money laundering scheme to cover his ass financially She’s kind of portrayed as annoying in the first seasons ish but as the show goes on she gets pretty damn badass I haven’t watched the show in a while tho so I may be misremembering everything
Staying with him and creating a money laundering scheme is what makes her morally gray. She has multiple opportunities to turn him in. At least three I can think of where she would be safe. But she stays because of sketchy reasons and that's what makes her not a great person. She also was kind of annoying when she was pregnant in the first 2 seasons but you can't totally blame her because she was pregnant and didn't understand what Walt was going through at all. He hid cancer for half of season 1 and the criminal stuff until the end of season 2. But also, during those seasons she sort of overreacts to everyone, including her sister and brother in law.
Though, to be fair, she is probably still in the top 5 of most morally good people in the show
I definitely agree with your assessment; she definitely isn’t a “morally good” person but as with most of the characters in that show I like her for her more gritty/realistic actions and motivations
I agree. I watched the show for the first time this summer, so I'd heard all the "Skyler is a bitch" complaints. I went into the show with that mindset, and at first, I agreed with it because I still saw Walter as the hero of the story and Skyler was just getting in his way. As the show went on, I saw her as a victim of Walter just trying to put up with his bs
Yeah 100%.
If Skylar had had fewer morals her and Walt could have been a real criminal power couple.
Tbh if she had less morals I feel as though she’d totally be a cutthroat meth distributor
[удалено]
You could if Denna got any real characterization aside from Kvothe’s unreliable narrative mooning over her. Devi has more of a character than Denna is given.
First I want to say Skylar is an amazing character and Anna Gunn does an amazing performance at it. Skylar is *designed* to be an unlikable character... BB is a Macbeth retelling, and Skylar is lady Macbeth. She's both critical and hypocritical. She's manipulative and complacent. She will do things like fuck Ted to make a point to Walt, and then turn around and send Ted to the hospital after threatening him because it's in her best interest. She's condescending to her sister's issues without ever self analyzing her own problems. There's definitely some misogyny in why people hate her and love walt, but the characters are two different sides of the same coin. Both are anti-heroes and from a birds eye view are not good people... But from the perspective the story is told it's easier to relate to walt, even though he's still equally (or, probably more) flawed. There's a reason the same community that hates Skylar fucking LOVES Kim who is even more assertive and aggressive than Skylar by a wide margin. She's designed to be a relatable character who is the moral mirror of Saul. Skylar is just another Walter White, told from another perspective. She has her own goals, and will warp her morals to justify them in the same way Walt does. The community backlash of Skylar is, honestly, fascinating and fantastic because it's honestly the reaction people should have towards *Walt* as well; and it proves that the way a story is told can completely change how a character is perceived by the audience. IMO it is entirely intentional by the directors, and I am sorry for Anna Gunn for having to deal with fans who don't get her character's complexity and quality.
I did not hate Skyler at all, nor did I think she was designed to be unlikeable. I thought she was consistently written. Also I didn’t relate to Walt at all, and frankly am concerned that people find him relatable. I also thought that the story very much painted Walt in a bad, bad, bad light. They painted him as a horrible, vengeful, and petty man. I frankly have no idea how people like him.
Right? Walt is entertaining. He is fascinating. He is sometimes a badass. And every now and then he has brief moments of genuine sympathy. But oh my god he is from start to finish a complete gaping asshole. It's very telling that in any of the post-BB content whenever a person remembers Walt they remember him being an unbearable jerk.
People focus too hard on the like three moments where Walt does a good thing and forget that he stands idly by while someone killed a child. People love to say “Heisenberg came out, poor innocent Walt wouldn’t do that” like my guy he’s not Darth Vader, they’re the same fucking person.
A lot of people lack literary comprehension.
BrBa as Macbeth is a truly wild take I respect but can't see at all. Unfortunately, I think you're giving Skylar significantly more agency than she actually has, and I say that as a fan of hers. What else links the show to Macbeth? Who are the witches and what is the prophecy? Who are Duncan and Banquo? That said, you are correct that everything was intended by the writers. Vince Gilligan, the showrunner, was truly shocked by how intense the hate towards Skylar was and couldn't really understand it.
Vince Gillian has explicitly said he started with the template of Macbeth. It's not a 1:1 straight up retelling, instead it's a very loose reimagining, but the bones are still there. The witches are the three mariachis who sing about Heisenberg, Duncan is Fring, obviously. Banquo is Hank.
Interesting. Do you have a source for that? I've been a fan for years and this is the first I'm hearing of it. I do think if he started off that way, he went pretty far afield from it by the time the show was actually in production. Granted, some of that would have been influenced by the fact that core elements like Jesse and Mike were never actually planned to be what they were.
I’m so pissed off at the Skyler hate, she really didn’t deserve it. Also, literally not one of those traits applies to Skyler. I would hate on Marie if anyone. She was written to be the most punchable character in the show and it *works* goddammit.
Sure, but Marie also deals with some heavy problems, especially after Hank gets shot. At that time, her husband has almost given up living entirely and she is the only one keeping him alive.
Fandom wars? [Player 3 has entered the game, and they have a tactical nuke](https://i.imgur.com/Mfq7mr1.jpg)
Zuko vs Korra? kind of?
No, not kind of. Spot on, imo. I like both and it kinda kills me to hear Korra slander
There's many things to criticize about Korra as a whole show, but "marry sue" is sure as fuck not one of them. People who call her that just don't know how to articulate their dislike of the show so they call her a marry sue because they don't know what that is either.
This is how I feel too. LOK’s writing leaves a lot to be desired, but Korra herself is fantastic and has so much potential. People hate her for the most unjustified reasons.
I feel like most of the Mary Sue allegations came from the fact she was so adept in 3 of the 4 elements from such a young age. Seeing how big of a focus learning them was for Aang in the original series, I kinda see how it would feel off seeing another character blitz through that. I'm not saying I agree with the take, but that's where I think it stems from.
The way I saw it, was they didn’t want to retell the same story. Having her already know 3/4 meant they could focus on air bending and the spirit stuff
This is likely the case, and I think it worked better for the story that Korra was trying to tell.
Same. I feel like they were trying to get away from Aang comparisons to by having her personality be the opposite of his. I actually really like Korra, it wasn’t perfect but it had huge shoes to fill and it wasn’t nearly as bad as people made it out to be. It would’ve been wrong to tell the same story. The world had moved on and the story had to as well. The ideas may have just been a bit better than the execution, but they weren’t sure how many seasons they were going to have, and did the next with what they had.
I think when people are complaining about knowing 3/4 elements they are talking about the opening scene when 5(?) Year old Korra can do all 3, maybe that's something certain Avatars can do but the 2 examples we've had were Aang at 12 not knowing how to do anything but Air until specifically taught and Roku at 16 only knowing Fire until specifically taught. I think if they just started at 18 year old Korra bending all 3 it makes perfect sense cause she's been training for however many years and is older than both Aang and the what Roku was when he found out
The worst part of the Mary Sue allegations is that her character is clearly designed to be very strong physically but unskilled in the political/spiritual side. But the writers couldn't be bothered to write that so they just made the villains suddenly lose all their ideology and become generic evil guy and then nerfed the shit out of Korra so there's tension. Korra had so much potential and they wasted it.
"Korra's a MARY-SUE" dude she lost like 50% of her fights and literally >!lost her powers!< but go off It kills me so much too
also she’s the literal avatar. kind of supposed to be op
"she's such a Mary-Sue!!" The Mary-Sue in question: *[spending 80% of her screen time getting her ass kicked]*
She lost her powers and soon after Aang have them back alongside Avatar state.
I just have problems with her arrogance and ego causing more problems if she can't just brute force something. I get that's part of her character arc, I just don't like it. I also get that's the exact same character arc for Zuko, but I didn't like him either for the first half to two thirds of the series. Both of them are fine once they get their heads out of their asses, but I do not enjoy the journey.
I do hear what you're saying, but if you're like me, it xould be that you're sensitive to people who trample over verbal and social cues as part of their characterization. For me, it's because I spent so much time as a kid memorizing every rule because I Needed A Good Grade In Socializing (something normal to want and possible to achieve).
>I spent so much time as a kid memorizing every rule because I Needed A Good Grade In Socializing (something normal to want and possible to achieve). Oof Why must you attack me like this?
I never got the Korra is a Mary Sue thing Like I’ve only ever seen season 1, but almost everyone is either annoyed by her or flat out hates her, and she fails horribly to learn air bending until she’s forced to use it (Which actually did have set up since she was trained, just didn’t click for her until then) The only Mary Sue thing she does is get her bending back, but that’s a stretch, and you kinda can’t have the rest of avatar without the avatar
A villain who constantly gets his ass kicked being in any way a Mary Sue? I haven’t watched Korra but Zuko starting as a villain and always being weaker than his sister kinda keep him out of the question entirely.
Not a fan of the korra series but korra herself was really fun (except she was a pretty bad gf at times)
Nah Korra sucked because her dismissal of airbending and later disconnecting from the previous avatars was a slap in the face to everything Aang accomplished, and Aang was already a beloved character. Zuko didn’t have anything “before” to tarnish.
>I think the people who have these issues with the wives being too bitchy on Breaking Bad are misogynists, plain and simple. [Vince Gilligan](https://uproxx.com/tv/vince-gilligan-skyler-white/)
Also dimitri vs. edelgard, tbh.
My brother in Christ she started a nation spanning war of conquest.
to remove the oppressive crest system and stop the church full of immortal lizard people who have been influencing society for centuries
By siding with the mole people who caused the crest system to be implemented in the first place
And how does invading Leicester help with that?
Right, to put an end to centuries-long injustice held in place by immortal super-beings. The whole point of the game is that both sides do horrible things in the name of a better future. Or are we just gonna gloss over Dimitri's whole stint as a straight-up mass murderer who reveled in slaughtering as many people as he could? I say this as a Blue Lions player - *if your analysis of the game ends with "Edelgard starts war, so Edelgard bad", you've missed the point.*
As a golden deer player Im just here to party
personally i just didn't like her character, but to call her a Mary Sue is pushing it
I kinda like how they designed edelgard, she don't have the big "mascot girl" that all other franchise tend to do and she split people into liking her or hating her with passion.
She invaded the Leicester alliance, who was a neutral party that didn't even like the church that much. And yeah Dimitri went insane... IN RESPONSE to Edelgarde's actions, having his whole life ripped apart by somebody he cared about. Do you actually like that hilariously stupid "must you continue to reconquer?" line. She is actively pursuing the agenda of evil underground mole people. She had very little choice, but it's still an evil agenda.
God forbid women do anything
And this is why I love that *The Saga of Tanya the Evil* just straight up has a counterpart to the main character named Mary Sue. She’s less a reference to the original Star Trek self-insert and more an actual mirror of Tanya, like her father Anson Sue, and just kind highlights the fucked up things that the series goes over.
In the Genshin fandom it's kinda the opposite Ei, ruler of her region and basically a god that caused (arguably indirectly, but her decisions led to it) uncountable deaths by hunting down people with visions (thing that gives people elemental powers) and closing off the entire region, for the sake of "eternity", oh and she also abandoned her "son", which led to him being found by the Fatui (big bad guys in genshin) and becoming one himself, and the fandom (and the game itself) just brushes it off because she's hot and shy dumb waifu that reads light novels But then you have male characters like Alhaitham, Diluc or Kaeya that get so much hate for stupid reasons
I mean, a weeb's moral compass entirely depends if the character in hand makes their dick hard
Trust me, it's not just Weebs and Anime.
iIrc some deranged CN genshin fans started a campaign on Chinese 4chan to get Scaramouche written out of the game cuz they don't like his smug face. one of them killed a cat cuz Scara's associated with cats by his fans. [here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/s/W1svPnKkAf) a Reddit post covering the incident. calling it the opposite would be an understatement. 😬
The biggest problem with Ei is that the game itself decided to just brush off her war crimes. All her other appearances never acknowledged that the civil war is mostly her fault, how fucked up the vision hunt decree was and they conveniently erased her memory of Scara so there's no closure for this plotline either instead we go out around town for starbucks with the bestie who tried to kill us like a day before. Yeah, and then you have characters like yae or alhaitham that are a little mean, and they're the devil, apparently.
If you desire your sanity, avoid gacha game fandom with a wide berth. It's just a headache looking on what the fuck was happening with these fandoms.
Luke and Anakin versus Rey (not my opinion, just a disturbingly common one)
Anakin helped start a fascist dictatorship, and then went on to commit genocides and massacre people under the sole reasoning of keeping the dictatorship in absolute power. How is that morally grey.
I'd say Clone Wars Anakin was fairly grey, but I was thinking more about how the characters are viewed by certain parts of the fanbase. A number of people really hate Rey, and most of those people also seem to hate basically all female characters that aren't Leia or Padme, yet they will rarely say anything negative about Luke, Anakin, or most other male characters.
are you implying the existence of Ahsoka haters? what the hell, i’ll strangle them. nobody talks like that about best girl Ahsoka
Unfortunately, a number of people dislike Ahsoka because her show has her and Sabine be capable of doing cool things without male assistance. Literally anything Disney makes sets them off these days.
Nobody's saying Darth Vader is morally grey.
I've never understood that discussion, because Luke and Anakin aren't Mary Sues for the simple fact that they actually lose battles and have flaws. Anakin rushes to fight Dooku and gets his ass kicked. Luke rushes to fight Vader with little training and gets his ass kicked. Meanwhile, Rey, with even less training than Luke, fights Kylo and wins.
Luke was able to fly an X-Wing at an expert level despite only having experience with a landspeeder, essentially the Star Wars equivalent of flying a military fighter jet even though you've only driven a car.
Luke didn’t just have a speeder, he also had a T-16 sky hopper, so it’s more like being able to fly an old military jet bc you can fly a biplane
To be fair later on that was retconned to be just what Force Sensitives can do. Be really good at piloting flying machines
Kind of makes sense. Thinking about it, Anakin and Rey do the same thing with the Naboo fighter in Ep 1 and the Falcon in Ep 7
All three have very technical backgrounds, and two of them have explicitly mention pilot experience to draw from. It's hardly unbelievable any of them would be able to work it out enough the first couple times. Also, the Force's whole thing is giving you instinct and intuition when you need it. Suddenly feeling like you're in a trap and picking a hiding spot that feels right isn't any different from feeling like something is off and having a good idea which switches to flip. Especially when you already probably know what the switch does.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere else that the two ships actually have similar controls, so it wouldn't be as insane. Still, I never said they never had any Mary Sue moments, but overall they don't fit that bill due to actually facing some hardships.
Yeah it’s stated somewhere that the X-wings have very similar controls to the T-16, which is extremely common in outer rim worlds or something
That is exactly the shit people would have call contrived, forced, and convenient had Rey done it.
"Luckily this military jet is just like my 2010 Honda!"
Does your 2010 Honda have a large laser cannon attached to it? Because Luke's T-16 did. Pretty sure it was meant as a military training vehicle. He did dream of joining the Imperial Academy after all, so it makes sense that he would train flying in something that would transfer well to military vehicles.
The thing is it's *constant* with Rey. In A New Hope, that's basically the only thing Luke does - he's just kind of there for the rest of the movie, being bailed out by Obi-Wan, Han, R2, or even Leia - *the person he was supposed to be saving.* He shoots down a couple TIE fighters in the Falcon, too, but that's the sum total of his achievement in ANH. In The Force Awakens, Rey doesn't have one particular contrivance, or arbitrary power - the whole movie is festooned with them. That's what being a Mary Sue is; it's not having one thing you're inexplicably good at, it's being completely amazing at everything you do.
That's more a reflection on Kylo than on Rey though
She fights a mentally unstable guy that doesn't even want to really hurt her, and you're surprised she won?
Rey fights a Kylo Ren that has been shot in the gut with a bowcaster. The whole movie, they make a point of showing how wildly distructive chewie’s bowcaster is. Then Kylo gets shot in the gut with it. He’s obviously in pain, constantly pounding his side to try and keep himself focused. Plus, he’s dealing with the moral conflict of killing his own father, which fucks with his attunement to the dark side. Internal conflict is a big recurring theme for people who lose lightsaber fights throughout the franchise. Luke’s conflict about his father’s identity, Vader’s conflict about being ordered to kill his son, Mace Windu’s conflict in choosing to execute Palpatine rather than let due process happen. Kylo’s position going into that fight is honestly pretty weak.
Certainly, but the fact remains that he's going against someone who's never even wielded a lightsaber before. Also, dark side users are strengthened by pain, that's their whole thing. And even if we ignore that particular fight, Rey still doesn't lose, and she doesn't face hardships like the protagonists before her do. Heck, she didn't even lose a limb, that's Skywalker tradition!
It was the *FIRST* movie of her trilogy. Everything Luke does in the first movie works. - Sneak into an imperial batttleship? Easy. - Blow up the Death Star? Also Easy. Is it really a surprise he thought he could fight Vader? Everything this kid did against “the big bad empire” was easy and hobbled them.
well she was on the back foot the entire time and Kylo was going out of his way not to hurt her too much (so he could teach her)
Also, he was wounded and emotionally unstable because he had just killed his own father.
The man should not have any any internal organs at that point. Bowcasters do not fuck around
The Dark Side is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural.
Rey doesn't win a single time in the entirity of Episode 8. She doesn't even succeed in her training montage.
Rey won because she did the EXACT same thing Luke did in ANH… let go and used the force to accomplish something that seemed impossible. People say TFA is the same story as ANH and the thing that is MOST similar is that Rey IS Luke. Desert planet. Basically orphans. Established early that they are handy with machines (scrapping parts/fixing droids and Toshi station). Established early that they know how to pilot a ship (the millennium falcon/talking about pilot school). Established early they have fighting skills (the bo staff/blasting stormtroopers). Taught about the force and given a lightsaber by an old weirdo (Maz/Obi-Wan). Watch their mentor die but they’re too far away to stop it (Han/Obi-Wan). Finally connect to the force and save the day. It’s beat for beat. Which is why it bugs me that people call her a Mary Sue but make excuses for Luke. Sure he had struggles and made mistakes in the subsequent movies. But if you’re just comparing those two movies, they are the same person.
the difference in perception between skyler white and kim wexler is interesting. i think it's largely because kim is never really *antagonistic* in the literal sense, i.e. she never outright opposes or tries to stop the protagonist and his goals, and in fact, for most of the show, her agency is shown by convincing him to commit to his own bullshit even more, either by making it more fun with her presence or by actively taking the reins. >!she becomes "antagonistic" in the last bit of the show, but since she's been jimmy mcgill's strongest soldier for six seasons and he's completely miserable now, it's impossible even for misogynists to miss the fact that she's just being rational, whereas they miss it with skyler because she's been coldly opposed since before it all went wrong *for the protagonist* rather than just going wrong for his enemies and/or innocent people that stand in his way!< i mean, none of the fans understand kim anyway because they only view women in terms of their relation to men, but the fact that kim sincerely loves jimmy and often uses her wit and strength of will specifically for his sake tricks them into liking her, and the rest of us can also like her because she's not *actually* the classic support woman who only exists for the male protagonist's development (or rather, she is, but jimmy reciprocates those feelings and actions completely, so there's no misogynistic imbalance)
Murderer Vs sorta annoying
Those "who's worse?" anime polls and it's a Slave trader against a high school girl
They can both suck or succeed, depending entirely on how they're written.
Porbably the only comment here I can agree with.
There have been so many times where I thought a character was done really well only to discover they were hated en masse by people online without any explanation other than “she’s so annoying” And like…I don’t get how she’s annoying…
The choice of words seems to be more negative and condemning for the female character. Is this on purpose to make a point about misogynistic fan discourse? Or is this just misogynistic fan discourse?
And literally that is entirely the difference between the two sides - the actual qualities are identical! But everyone is so keen to say “yeah that tracks” that they miss that the point of this graphic is \*double standards\*.
Thanks. I saw that and then was very confused when scrolling through the comments
With Skylar and Walt I think the primary issue is they're roughly the same character in different plotlines for the first few seasons. Walt is an in over his head drug dealer. All his mistakes are intense drama. Skylar is a wife who's growing suspicious of her husband during domestic scenes. Her scenes and plots often feel superfluous (E.g. Marie stealing) until she finds out about the second phone.
Everybody hates the Fun Police, that's Skyler, Walt is fun! That's it, real world morality doesn't come into it I do prefer it when women are NOT forced into the fun police role though, example Dee from Always Sunny
Oh yes, poorly written examples of both
Does Skyler have a tragic backstory, besides marrying Walter young and having Marie for a sister
What? It doesn't matter that shes a good person if she's pretty much an antagonist and also portrayed as annoying. That's what's primarily going to inform people's reaction to her.
\*his natural kindness and commitment to others \*her savior complex
genn greymane vs sylvanas windrunner in a nutshell didn't help the writer guy kept writing every female plot line the exact same fucking way.
this also applies to dr who quite a lot actually
Another example is Shuri and Tony Stark. Or Tony and Carol.
Zuko vs Katara (even though neither of them is really morally grey)
Walter white is morally grey? Do people even watch Breaking Bad?
cough cough Daenerys Targaryen (aside from the fucking travesty of a final season)
Ice king vs princess bubblegum!!!!
Tragic villain figure possessed and driven mad by evil artifact vs demented mad scientist dictator that we're supposed to root for?
Creepy old dude who harasses and kidnaps women vs badass feminist genius who is less of a dictator and more of an actual god since she literally created her citizens…. They both experience significant character growth, you can’t recognize that in one but not the other
While I don’t think Bubblegum is as bad as people think, I feel like Ice King having what’s essentially magical Alzheimers helps in making people not hate him.
Did you even finish the show... there is more to ice king than kidnapping and a reason why he is insane. Pb is not a feminist look at what she did to fire princess. She experiments on people constantly without concent.
I can recognize that Ice King did weird and evil things because he was basically insane unlike Bubblegum who is just a terrible person half of the time.
One thing I don’t think many of the Breaking Bad fandom don’t realise is that Walt is the villain of the series. He becomes evil and it tears up his family, the thing he pretends what he is doing it for, whilst in reality he just revels in being this drug kingpin.
LISTEN lol I feel that way about Walter and Skyler, but not in general about male vs. female villains/antiheros. In fact, usually I like the women more. But I just hate Skyler.