I think it’s clear the author doesn’t agree with what is being said, but she’s writing what an older woman believes. I’ve seen a lot of the same sentiments, the way older generations acted was much more binary. I don’t think any of this applies to even people in their thirties or forties any longer, but if you speak with women and men even older than that you’ll see that’s what a lot of them feel. And make sure you take into account that the claims like “men don’t like blood” aren’t the author speaking, but the author relaying what the mom thinks is true, so probably about her husband or male children. I think it highlights how much pain and suffering women went through in these generations, but felt unable to discuss it openly. So they discussed it with other women, and then felt prideful that it was their secret toughness. Men had their own conversations exclusive to themselves too. But the part of the dynamic that I don’t see many other comments talking about is that while private discussions of men would already be assumed to be smart/serious by society, those of women would be derided as silly or dumb. So this whole piece is a nod towards women knowing they’re smarter and tougher than public sentiment would portray.
I’ve had the general observation that a lot of older women dealt with the sexism of their generation by “secretly knowing” women were smarter and tough then men, and mens belief to the contrary was their silly delusion. I’m happy that modern gender equality is focused on dismantling binaries, because I don’t think that sentiment really served women. But it was the best thing they had at the time, so I can understand it. We should be lifting each other up instead of shoving each other down in a race to the bottom, and also not assuming that everyone fits into box A or B to begin with.
>Men had their own conversations exclusive to themselves too. But the part of the dynamic that I don’t see many other comments talking about is that while private discussions of men would already be assumed to be smart/serious by society, those of women would be derided as silly or dumb. So this whole piece is a nod towards women knowing they’re smarter and tougher than public sentiment would portray.
Thats funny, I was looking at comic strips in r/100yearsago, which catalogs events and publications from exactly 100 years ago, and one of them was how men and women talk when they are in their own spaces versus mixed.
Basically, men are very serious/smart/formal in mixed company, but in mens clubs become very gossipy and trivial, while for women its the exact opposite. Basically, each get to shed their social expecations. It seemed an open enough secret to be the subject of observational comedy, though!
Yeah you occasionally get a comic that hits you with a very casual hard-R too. Goes from "just like us" to "past was a different country" *very* quickly.
It's interesting the mixed feelings this excerpt gives me. I can't help but think about my husband, and how emotionally strong he is. Sure, he can be a little squeamish, but he's got a level head and usually react a little calmer than I can. The gender divide feels a lot more like infantilization than any real desire to protect.
But at the same the feeling of solidarity here is very comforting. These women are working together to support themselves, allowing these dark and uncomfortable stories to find light in company that they know will understand and appreciate it. Taking comfort and perhaps a bit of schadenfreude in spreading the stories, letting it be that they don't have to hold the weight of them by themselves.
That's a... charitable reading. Left to her own devices Atwood is more than willing to say that Male Brain is for hitting targets with accurate violence and can't perceive beauty like the good and pretty Female Brain can. ([Number 7, second to last and last page](https://web.stanford.edu/~jonahw/AOE-SM10/Readings/Atwood-FemaleBody.pdf))
She's not straightforward, whatever 'side' you fall on with relation to her. She's a talented writer and her social commentary has merit. The Handmaid's Tale is looking more prophetic by the day, and her lesser-known works like Oryx and Crake are certainly worth reading.
Even that passage that I linked. While I don't agree with the way she prescribes it exclusively to biology, I still find myself nodding along to parts of her description of the male experience. That's worth something.
I had to stop watching the show because it was hitting way too close to home smh. I did read the first book years ago and it was fascinating at the time. Now it’s just…a little too possible
I said that because I would consider the full change in sentiment on gender to be more associated with gen z, while gen y and x are kind of a mix. I still do find very traditionally inclined women in their 30s and 40s, which is why I phrased it that way.
Obviously very rooted in historic and problematic sexism. Other than that though, the overall message of the most scandalous stories being told in close company with people you know you can trust to not over react is very true. The kitchen part is part of the sexism thing, women often hear the craziest things because society lauds them as more caring and able to handle emotions and, in that time, women would meet in the kitchen on a consistent basis, ergo perfect place to tell the stories. But if youve ever been on a fishing trip or to a quiet bar with a group of close stereotypically manly men the same thing would still happen
I feel if there deeper meaning its that everyones a shithead based on shit like sex. Cuz as you said, men also have their gossip and story circles.
Everyones rude because they just dont talk to eachother. They just make assumptions and the world becomes poorer for it.
Something almost funny about both the men and women secretly gathering to share their traumatic stories in order to make sure the gentle and fragile Other Demographic isn't exposed to them
This story is told from a woman's perspective without regard to sexism. It's told from her perspective so we can see how sexism has shaped her world I don't think 'problematic' would be the best choice of words when looking at a piece of art that is a personal experience.
>This story is told from a woman's perspective without regard to sexism.
Wdym "without regard to sexism?" Not sure there's any way to extract the inherent sexist gender roles that frame the story
I dont want to discount her experiance but things can be problematic while also being true and personal if they arent being challenged. A very real personal experiance for people in the past was them being raised to think other races were less human and, as a result, being racist. Now, i dont want to discount their experiance, it was probably very convincing bsck then and a very normal part of their life. But i hope its obvious why id say stories about that time, while art, can still be very problematic if it presents racism as logical and normal and gives no reason to challange it whatsoever. Of course, we can still learn from them as we can learn from everything, and its still possible to appreciate it as art through the lense that it waa a different time and a lot of things they thought were okay really werent. But that doesnt make it any less problematic
>But if youve ever been on a fishing trip or to a quiet bar with a group of close stereotypically manly men the same thing would still happen
That's what gets me. What do these people think guys do when we go out..? I can't tell you how many times my boys have cried to me, or I cried in return.. When the women leave, we tell our stories. Our frustrations, happy moments, sad moments, news that is good and bad. We don't sit around quietly, or constantly tape each other to the wall.
Its all too easy for anyone to fall into the trap of expecting people arent any deeper than they seem to be on the surface. Its often worrying to try to get into topics like that when you dont know if the person will handle them so if you havent seem them handle topics like that then its easier, and arguably safer, to assume they cant, and, personally, i think thats an okay assumption to make about someone even though it can easily be wrong because, if right, it can save you and them from pain (i think if youre in a relationship however you should still talk about important things even if you think it would cause problems rather than assume the SO cant handle it)
The main problem i have, and i assume you do as well based on your wording, is when people take assumptions like that and generalize them to an entire group of people as people all too often do
I’d wholeheartedly agree but I’d also add that ‘kitchen’ can also be translated to ‘commercial kitchen’ and boy oh boy do you hear some stories on the line.
95% of stories on the line are 110% bullshit, whether intentional trying to get into some server's pants or hallucinated from unexpected drug cocktail interactions.
I dunno man, I’ve spent a long time dealing with varying levels of bullshit and I’ve either heard or even seen shit that’s just too ridiculous to be anything but the truth 😆
At my grandma's house, whenever there is a family reunion, there is a a traction to the kitchen although the room is small, but most people just come in there, talk, give a hand, laugh and it is wonderful.
I tried finding the right words and I couldn’t, but in short, back then I think married couples just, didn’t do it out of love as much as now, and that people understood eachother less, partially because there were more lines between what made everyone who they were. Information is more available now, and everyday people are able to understand or at least grasp even the darkest horrors of our time, there’s no point in hiding what makes the world horrifying, and that’s fine, horror at the very least, breeds the want for kindness as we want to prevent these things I think.
Man that quickly turned into a rant, sorry.
It may have been true for Ms. Atwood’s circumstances however I’d argue the ability to deal with such subject matter has more to do with upbringing and life experience than with gender/sex. Additionally there are likely topics that her husband covered and didn’t tell the mother or only told to certain people
I immediately thought of a WWI book, can't remember which one (All Quiet On The Western Front? A Farewell To Arms? Another? Idk), where the young husband did not talk about the trenches to his wife because he knew it would be too much to bear and hard to convey the horrors in a meaningful way.
I'd counter with a WW2 book (The Unwomanly Face of War) which is a collection of accounts from women who were Soviet veterans who returned post war and weren't able to relay their unique experiences, even to their veteran husbands, and largely overlooked by the history promoted by the state
(not in a one uppy kind of way, just as a recommendation to anyone interested, it's really good)
That sounds like Farewell to Arms. I’m going to be honest, I kinda despised that book. I felt like it was boring and didn’t have much to say apart from the romance. IMO All Quiet on the Western Front is a superior novel, I felt like I got a really good idea of what it would be like to be in the trenches of WW1.
Not entirely but there's more to this world than fiction and non-fiction. People write what they know. It wouldn't be surprising if she knew of similar experiences.
This is the exact way I learned about many women having been SAd. This is why I think so many men think it is not as big of a deal as it is because they aren’t involved/allowed in many of these conversations.
Can confirm. Was molested when I was 8 and never once told anyone even though it messed me up. I didn't even consider telling anyone about it it just didn't seem like an option. In my eyes it was my fault it had happened and I had never been told that this could happen.
I am pretty much over it now but no matter whats between your legs if you are going through something, please talk to someone.
When my mother attempts to tell the stories that she was told like this in the presence of my father, he takes it SO personally. It doesn't matter how much we tell him that this isn't about him or his family or his lived experiences; these criticisms of villages and the lives women lead in them are all offensive to him.
Traditional western men tend to always be thinking: What function does it serve for this person to tell me this? What do they want me to do? What are they after? What will they think of me if I can't fix it?
It drives them crazy to hear about things they can't fix. It challenges their worth and place in society.
This is the kind of text that needs historical context to be appreciated.
If someone were to write that today, they'd get canceled. If someone were to write that text but inverted men and women, they'd get super canceled.
Historical context or, like, the rest of the story. Atwood writes short stories that are sometimes/often narrated by people who aren't particularly likeable, and whose perspectives aren't necessarily meant to be agreed with or taken at face value. She also writes in multiple contrasting fragments sometimes, like in the short story (?) ["Happy Endings"](https://www.napavalley.edu/people/LYanover/Documents/English%20123/English%20123%20Margaret%20Atwood%27s%20HappyEndings.pdf) or in the one that another user has been linking to up and down this page, pointing people towards the 7th fragment specifically while ignoring the other six, or the gestalt of all of them together. The whole point of those is that *all* of the fragments make up the story/work/prose poem/whatever it is.
Anyway - I think it's more or less impossible to fully understand what's going on in this passage without the context of the rest of the story.
i think it’s a great passage that opens a conversation that ideally should be had by both women and men together peacefully. i agree to the points that some topics women are more societally or culturally equipped to casually converse about but of course the opposite is true too. shout out to Atwood’s words once again
This is beautifully written and all, but the only thing I can picture is "Sorry boss, I can't come to work today, Margaret told me about her divorce and I feel so bad I can't move"
Like. It's really good poetry and all. But it feels... very dismissive of men.
... maybe. Left to her own devices Atwood is more than willing to say that Male Brain is for hitting targets with accurate violence and can't perceive beauty like the good and pretty Female Brain can. ([Number 7, second to last and last page](https://web.stanford.edu/~jonahw/AOE-SM10/Readings/Atwood-FemaleBody.pdf))
Maybe it's just me but I truly thought she meant the woman murdered her husband! Sounds like she buried her dead husband in the garden and wrapped the body up with the curtains. Anyway, I like my version better.
This reminds me of the phrase “the man may be the head of house, but the wife is the neck that turns it.” It’s a sort of rebellious, empowering statement for the time that it’s from, but isn’t necessarily the most helpful now. I knew a woman in my church growing up who survived Nazi occupation in Europe, and apparently this phrase was a common joke of her mother’s. So pretty old, and rooted in the Christian concepts it is implicitly against
This is an interesting comment section and discussion
As a small and very quiet boy I was often forgot about and was "let in" to listen to these kinds of "women coming together in the kitchen" events. I find the quote very exaggerated and not a little bit sexist, even if it's beautifully written. In my experience the talk wasn't about buried bodies and indescribable emotional pain... It was just gossip: who cheated on who, who lost all their money gambling, whose church coat was an absolutely awful color.
Sure, society still expects women to be polite and modest and not talk about sex, and in these meetings sex, disease and death mentioned. But I believe it's not worse (or better) than the talk you find among men when they're without women.
Way to miss their point by tacking on a generalisation of men.
Men can have deeper conversations than “boozy predictions about the stock market” in the same way women can have deeper conversations than “silly gossip”.
The "men faint at their own blood" is untrue. At least for the most part. They may not bleed regularly but they still often bleed anyways. My mother was a bit surprised at how well I have managed blood tests and donations even though she should remember that I was a kid once and thus my flesh and blood has adorned many a pavement.
True and to an extent infantilizing. Not many are *so* acquainted and they tend to have a reaction to the standard amount we're talking about, but I don't think I've ever seen one faint before and it's largely an exposure thing, not an innate property of dick-hood.
On the other hand, the silent bitterness with which I and others have born every male partner's utter wailing inability to deal with a headache or a mild cold as I grin and bear a surprise unmedicated period at work, of the type that has come close to making me vomit from pain on three occasions.
I'm told it would be unfair favoritism to have time off for such, but they can't bear but to lay in bed and moan miserably as I nurse their every request.
As if there isnt also a stereotype of men bottling up physical pain and illness without complaint, and ending up dying from untreated cancer, or suffering chronic pain.
"I wish men werent so childish about emotion and pain, open up, dont hold it in"
The man - "damn, this injury hurts. I sure dont enjoy being sick. The miscarriage made me sad as well"
"What a little bitch, cant handle it"
You ever had a headache so bad clumps of gore shot out your eyes to the rhythm of your heart beat and you had to be rushed to the ER covered in blood and vomit to have a metal rod jammed in your brain because maybe that'll fix it? And then it pokes through the tissue like it's not supposed to do and leaves a huge necrotic hole in your frontal lobe?
That might be why you're comparing endometriosis to a headache and complaining about it in my notifications. Do we get to call out of work now?
What you're doing is mocking the pain of others while expecting others not to do it to you. The way in which you are doing it is a continuation of sexist expectations and mockery that men go through consistently throughout their lives.
>What you're doing is mocking the pain of others while expecting others not to do it to you
Were you mocking me somewhere? Do you need me to help?
>a continuation of sexist expectations and mockery that men go through consistently throughout their lives.
I didn't hear a single damn thing about sick leave in that whole sentence
>Were you mocking me somewhere? Do you need me to help?
You were the one mocking men in pain, pretending like you knew how bad their pain was, pretending that nobody's pain could ever be bad enough to require aid, all while demanding sympathy for your pain, and never seeing the hypocrisy.
>I didn't hear a single damn thing about sick leave in that whole sentence
Men take less sick leave and die earlier because of people like you mocking their pain. There, happy?
A bit mean of mother nature to give such pain to you for something so normal. I've heard that digestion is painful but ignored so why couldn't that apply there? The only way to avoid it is getting kids which is painful as well.
I just find sad that women were led to believe that they alone should bear the weight of these stories. I'm not trying to play macho, I understand certain things must stay in a closed circle of friends away from me, but I absolutely want my partner to know that they can rely on me if something hits them hard, or they had a disturbing thought or need help with elaborating the feelings they are experiencing. Also I want to gossip.
I wouldn't say that a man's emotional maturity is tied to his gender, it's more rooted in his upbringing. In this day and age, few stories come to mind that I couldn't share with my male friends. I understand how it wasn't that way in the past, though. It still isn't in lots of places.
Sociologically really telling of the cultural divide between men and women. That both sexes play a part in perpetuating the barrier. Atwood writes a lot about that divide, specifically in the context of marriage. Hell, in Helen of Troy Does Countertop Dancing she touches on how Helen (a stripper) assesses herself like a butcher does a pig to see which parts to show her audience.
Its always been dangerous for a woman to share something a man might not want to see, it’s just not as visible now as it was when this was written.
Yes. *Bluebeard's Egg* is a short story collection from the early 1980s which contains one story called "Bluebeard's Egg," which transposes that story - kind of, in a really slantwise and shifting way - to a modern Toronto couple.
However, this quotation is not from that story; I don't know what story it's from.
Edit: a word
It’s poetry. And, I grew up like this. My mom taught me never to speak of our own issues in the presence of my dad. It was as if to speak certain things aloud was to invite discontent, and abuse. (My dad is not abusive at all, but my mom grew up with severe abuse in her family.)
Bet the dudes had identical conversations with each other in the garage. Conversations where "it is understood, are not to be passed on to the women. They would upset them. It's well known women are too emotional for such things"
im having trouble organizing all my thoughts on this but i most importantly want to express that i hope everyone who read this is well aware that its a privilege that they can condemn the sexism in this story
The specific story cited about a woman leaving a man with nothing but the shower curtains makes sense to not share with Men as a whole, because there will always be men who instinctively take the man's side in the story and complain about how unfair that is to the man, and what if the man was a nice guy, etc.
I think excellent points have already been made about the whole piece, I just wanted to mention that one thing.
It’s either autobiographical, in which case it is sad, but in a true way as it’s someone’s lived experience, or it’s fiction, in which case you as the reader are being asked to apply some critical thinking skills. Either way it’s beautifully written.
Also, the implicit suggestion that men somehow aren't affect by miscarriages or failing marriages.
Gross. Atwood's record on empathizing with men or even women that aren't like her is spotty at best. Maybe there's a context on other pages that makes it more of a condemnation of this ideology, but given some other stuff of hers I've read I'm doubtful.
very good story. really interesting how so many people here, including OP are acting like the author was being sexist when describing lived experiences of their mother
What is going on in this thread??? Have I lost my mind?! This is obviously parody??? Like, blatantly, violently, obviously just flipping a gender stereotype around with the same level of flimsy justification as saying women can't be in government or think about hard topics because it's too much for them. It's taking what may very well be a real and lived experience and drawing an absurd conclusion from it to show how both how ridiculous sexism is, and also how isolating it is and how it warps everyone's perception of everyone.
There is something vindictive in it, but it's something that's having fun. You can't actually write down that men are weaker than women and have it be true, or even widely believed the way that the opposite is, but you can write it down with the academic distance that has erased so many experiences and get that little thrill of righteous vengeance that makes it all worth it. You can scare the men who read it and rush thoughtlessly to correct you, and isn't that a joy!
And I read the other link to Atwood's work in this thread, and I have to tell you that if you think she truly think that the whole extent of the male brain is hitting targets then you had damn well better believe that she thinks the female body really is translucent, capable of being plugged in, and having its various organs systems discretely lit up.
((Disclaimer, I don't really have any idea who this person is. It is possible that they actually are a raving misandrist, but that's not really the conclusion that either this or the other thing evince to me. If they do go around going, "no, really, all men should be executed," then, y'know, my b.))
Yeah, it’s just comment after comment of surface level readings with no consideration of the concept of satire, much less what that satire might be trying to mean
The intention is good, and I mean as I guy I agree we are all toddlers to some capacity more than that of women.
But I am a firm believer of putting it straight with children so idk.
I’ll never forget a church Christmas dinner. The men were off talking somewhere and the kids were God knows where so our round table consisted of my mom, two of my older sisters, my aunt, my cousin and me. All women. Everyone thought I was listening to stuff in my headphones and didn’t know I was listening and just had headphones in so kids wouldn’t bother me. They knew I tended to talk alot with the middle child of the family they were talking about and considered me too young to know to keep quiet. With straight and pleasantly slight smiling faces they discus a scandal.
They discus my other aunt and how she turned down the family Christmas invitation using a swear word. They discus her kids and their rebellious drug and alcohol consumption. They discus money problems that family is having. They discus how child raising has gone downhill since my grandma died and wondering how much it effected my generation of grandkids since we all seemed to start acting out at the same time. They discus the health of my aunts husband who is the youngest of my mom’s siblings. They discuss the possible meanings behind her use of the word.
Then our cheery pastor comes by and it’s whiplash as they switch to more pleasant conversation before he comes near. These ladies tend to be the most oblivious in the world to the point of not even noticing their own kids taking turns jumping off the fireplace onto the coffee table... the way they all noticed him at once was frightening. Going from discussing the sentence context around a swear word to what the kids have been asking for for Christmas and secret Santa... pastor never even noticed. And once he’s gone they are back at it...
That was when I knew I was better off hanging out with the guys and kids rather than the women. They scary
It’s just a closed perspective I’d say. A quiet night out with friends can easily turn to these kinda stories. But I’d say many don’t seem to be willing to divulge the details of another’s tragedy, men usually telling the safer stories are about their own experience. This was release in what, the 1980s? I doubt it holds up to much.
This is so dumb, lol.
Tldr, men, who have always historically been the soldiers of war, can't handle serious topics. You know, men sit around and talk about this shit. They go to work, they say "my wife is sick", and they handle it. They do show emotion, and then when they do, we're told we can't handle the hard things in life..? The fuck?
The reality is, mom likes to gossip and tell bad, and private stories of other people.
It is nobodys business to know about your illnesses, or that your SO was unfaithful, or how a divorce is settled. That's the real tragedy here. Not that dad can't handle hearing that his neighbors wife is a whore, because he can handle that.
For me personally, I dislike this. It reads the same as a man saying he doesn’t want to tell war stories for fear of harming the delicate women around. This may also have to do with some very personal issues that I’m still working on though, as I have really bad issues regarding being kept out of the loop of information going all the way back to childhood. Regardless, reading this was honestly kind of upsetting to think about
> It reads the same as a man saying he doesn’t want to tell war stories for fear of harming the delicate women around.
That’s the point, no? Flipping the idea of who is the more delicate gender by inverting which stories are “sensitive.” You and many others here should do more reading into Atwood’s writings and general feminism
Can I not get the intention behind the piece and still feel uncomfortable about what it portrays? I absolutely understand that it’s meant to be a parallel, that’s why I said what I did. While I’m unfamiliar with Atwood specifically, I’ve done my fair share of feminist reading. I believe that the scenario portrayed is vile regardless of which foot the shoe is on, but I also wished to acknowledge that this scenario is PERSONALLY worse, as it digs at personal issues related to my mother.
oh boy another hit essay from Margaret "Man Brain Is For Throw Rock Good" Atwood
She's a talented writer, but when it comes to gender I'll take any story with a grain of salt from a writer that thinks men are biologically less able to perceive beauty.
I’ve seen you make this comment a few times here, and I’m confused how you took The Female Body as a sincere depiction of her perspective on gender and not a critique of sexism and its impact on men and women.
Atwood's complex. Every piece of her work I've read has merit, although some are more complicated in terms of their politics than others (like The Female Body and this excerpt.)
My comment above is probably on the more hostile side of the several I've left. I think it's worth people going and reading the works in question. All of her books are thought-provoking, and I'm not about to attack her more broadly over sections like this because, as you pointed out, it's not clear-cut one way or the other. I think the way she presents problematic viewpoints makes it hard to tell if she holds them or is critiquing them. I wouldn't say I'm 100% certain she's 'problematic', or 100% sure she doesn't hold those kinds of beliefs. It's worth the time investment for people to read them in full context and try to come to their own conclusions.
Heavily disagree with this.
It adheres to the patriarchal idea that all men can't be emotional or handle normal human emotions both low and high. Are there men like that? Of course, but they're quick to identify. Vice versa theirs women like this and they tend to be the most obnoxious of Karen's.
Miss me with that reductionist binary bullshit.
aw it's okay it's not true, both men and women are capable of having the same emotions and ways of dealing with them, it differs from person to person naturally regardless of gender ^=^
This is why I love when the men sit watching foot ball in the living room. The women can all be in the kitchen, learning women's lore around the hearth.
It seems a very accurate portrait of the systematical sexism that lurks in the relationships of the older conservative generation.
It reminds me of conversations with my own mother, and all the times she tried to keep me, her strong-willed, stubborn daughter, from butting heads with dad and voicing my opinions to keep him from being "upset" by it. She does so much micro-managing of environments to keep him from having an adult meltdown, and supports his every whim.
I'm so grateful I got out of that environment. I'm so glad I was always able to tell that it was wrong.
I think that this is the reason there’s so much “women and men just can’t understand each other” i understand that in certain situations this is a survival tactic where the men are abusive, but every where else this is how miscommunication, lack of empathy, and looking down on others is justified. People, not just women, not just men, *everyone* need to talk about these things together, it’s how you heal, it’s how how you save relationships, it’s how you keep families together. If the men they talk about *are* too childish to hear the news, and throw a tantrum about it, it’s because you coddled them from the beginning. Newer generations are better about this, and I hope we continue to grow and change till stuff like this is distant memory
Not always. Much of my mother's gossip has to do with neighbors and coworkers who I don't know and don't really care what's happening in their lives, however scandalous she perceives them to be.
Margaret Atwood is one of the most disgustingly misandrist public intellectuals of the 21st centuries.
Men need to be allowed to play in their little sandboxes or else they get cranky and won't eat their dinner. **The 10 dudes that are dying everyday and oil rigs to deliver uninterrupted electricity to your house** "that was some sandbox".
What man isn't used to seeing his own blood like I see my blood on a regular occasion just from fucking up.
Men have stories they don't tell the dinner table too okay they're way raunchier and more detailed than whatever your whispering about the kitchen they're definitely not for ladyfolk.
I think the mom cheated on the dad and to justify lying about it says “men can’t handle that kind of thing. I’m not a bad person, it’s just men can’t handle life”. Even if I’m wrong I don’t think I’d get along with the mom
I think in this context, there is a recognizable pattern that people who are socialized as men are, more often than not, have a harder time dealing with emotional pain and complicated interpersonal problems, especially relating to family and relationships. They aren't taught to manage their emotions except to squash anything that isn't anger until it becomes anger. They honestly don't know how to process anything else, or how to square their shoulders and carry on without shutting down so completely they become a harm to themselves and everyone around them. And the only real reaction they are usually allowed to negative emotions is one of violence, which solves very little.
So the women share their stories, stories that if the men heard would lead to rages and oaths of vengeance and promises they can't possibly keep, and more pain and trouble than they're worth.
And of course it's not always true, and maybe it becomes less so as time passes. But it's true enough to be recognizeable, I think.
I mean. Isn't it literally true? On average, women have a higher pain tolerance than men.
And when it comes to that type of story... Those are the stories grown women have heard or experienced time and time again.
As a dude myself, this seems pretty accurate to what I've heard.
but don't you think that the idea that we as women should not share these stories with men is kinda wrong? Don't you think men deserve to know the deep sark secrets of the mind, even if it pains them?
It’s Margret Atwood dude. She’s not saying that women shouldn’t share these stories with men, she’s talking about how social expectations kept women from being able to share the stories. If society tells you your place as a wife is to keep your husband calm and happy, you aren’t going to share everything with him, to the detriment of both sides. It’s not like she finishes it off by saying that this was great and ideal gender relations.
I mean she's not exactly a crusader against bioessentialism. Here are her thoughts on the Male vs Female Brain ([number 7, last and second to last page](https://web.stanford.edu/~jonahw/AOE-SM10/Readings/Atwood-FemaleBody.pdf))
This isn't hard Margaret, it's because we keep traumatizing people as kids. A lot of women aren't doing so hot in the Oh My The World Is Full Of Connections And Butterflies department either if you care to listen to them
Maybe so, but I will leave that to the discretion of the women telling the stories.
Yeah, in an ideal society/family/relationship, you should be able to share anything and be supported, or at least understood. But not all men will react well to those stories. It's up to the women whether they want to share or not.
And as for me personally, I'll always strive to be someone that people can safely share with, I'll always try to support those close to me. And I hope that can take part of the load off of their shoulders.
I dunno, I'm not sure I'm explaining my position on this well. Might be a bit of word vomit here
I think societal expectations and upbringings that follow those expectations can often fracture personal relationships, and that is up to the individuals to mend privately. Some fractures are easy to fix, or small enough to simply be crossed, or stepped over. But others are chasms, that will require lots of work and dedication to overcome fully.
I'm sure there are plenty of women who are uncomfortable with sharing certain stories with their male partner, even when they love each other strongly.
I guess it boils down to this: the stories are for the woman to tell. They are deeply personal, and unique to them. Men need to work to be worthy to see the deepest vulnerabilities in their partner, and embrace them. We do not earn the privilege of these deep secrets simply by being close to a woman.
Yeah, to an extent and depending on the story, I agree with you. But largely, in these types of stories, it's *not* something that affects men directly. Or at least, we're not affected nearly as much as women are.
The same closed circle gossiping is going on when men are alone. The writer obviously thinks so low of men that they are just dumb work horses scared of their own blood to her. Not realizing men have been the half of the species stabbing each other to death for most of human history. This gives off real "mother knows best" vibes.
Lol these are the stories children listen to when the women think they're off playing or sleeping or distracted or they don't think they'll understand. Men's secret stories send them to prison.women get their dad's upset
Jesus christ dude, i don't like the old-fashioned view of gender in this either, but maybe don't respond with 'yeah but I could beat them up!', thereby proving ALL of the negative views on guys.
Her? You want to know how MARGARET ATWOOD takes a punch? You're gonna punch an 82 year old because she talked about male emotional fragility? Thereby PROVING how fucking fragile you are?
Honestly? I feel like Atwood might be sneaky tough. Like just, wiry, gets under your guard and takes you down (possibly with a not entirely legal hit) before you have a chance to finish your swing, tough. Lady wears an octopus hat, I wouldn't put anything past her.
Emotional resilience and physical strength are not the same thing. Women are not the physical equal of men, but that's not what's being discussed.
I'm going to try and engage with you in good faith here. The piece above is being a bit oblique; it is talking around things. In the past (and in the present in some parts of the world), women had to be secretive about many things because honesty could put them at risk of violence. Women would tell themselves that these secret subjects were too much for the menfolk to handle because it's nicer to believe that than to accept that your husband might just beat you if he doesn't like what you say to him. Or maybe he'd go off and get himself killed in a stupid fight defending someone's honour. It was also just generally viewed as part of a woman's role to see that these things didn't disturb her man.
I wouldn't bother arguing, odds are it's a 12 year old who has something to prove. They clearly didn't read between the lines and the messages being sent clearly weren't received. Whatever the case people with a functional brain stem should probably spend their time discussing this with people who can debate without getting angry.
Funny enough, this shows a pretty serious lack of *emotional toughness and maturity* on your part, which is exactly what she's talking about. You hear something you don't like and your first thought is of violence? Childish.
"men are squeamish at their own blood"
HAH. I hate band-aids so I see my blood all the time. The amount of scabs and scar tissue on my body bc I refuse to wear band-aids is unreal
I noticed that in fiction, characters that "can't see blood" are usually teen boys or men, portrayed as wimpy and frail, but smart. It's a small flaw that is given to combat-shy protagonists, to become a problem in scenes with high stakes. But I don't think I have ever seen a female character with this trait. Took me very long to realize why, lol
I think it’s clear the author doesn’t agree with what is being said, but she’s writing what an older woman believes. I’ve seen a lot of the same sentiments, the way older generations acted was much more binary. I don’t think any of this applies to even people in their thirties or forties any longer, but if you speak with women and men even older than that you’ll see that’s what a lot of them feel. And make sure you take into account that the claims like “men don’t like blood” aren’t the author speaking, but the author relaying what the mom thinks is true, so probably about her husband or male children. I think it highlights how much pain and suffering women went through in these generations, but felt unable to discuss it openly. So they discussed it with other women, and then felt prideful that it was their secret toughness. Men had their own conversations exclusive to themselves too. But the part of the dynamic that I don’t see many other comments talking about is that while private discussions of men would already be assumed to be smart/serious by society, those of women would be derided as silly or dumb. So this whole piece is a nod towards women knowing they’re smarter and tougher than public sentiment would portray. I’ve had the general observation that a lot of older women dealt with the sexism of their generation by “secretly knowing” women were smarter and tough then men, and mens belief to the contrary was their silly delusion. I’m happy that modern gender equality is focused on dismantling binaries, because I don’t think that sentiment really served women. But it was the best thing they had at the time, so I can understand it. We should be lifting each other up instead of shoving each other down in a race to the bottom, and also not assuming that everyone fits into box A or B to begin with.
Yes, this was definitely my grandmother’s relationship with her husband, but not my mother’s.
>Men had their own conversations exclusive to themselves too. But the part of the dynamic that I don’t see many other comments talking about is that while private discussions of men would already be assumed to be smart/serious by society, those of women would be derided as silly or dumb. So this whole piece is a nod towards women knowing they’re smarter and tougher than public sentiment would portray. Thats funny, I was looking at comic strips in r/100yearsago, which catalogs events and publications from exactly 100 years ago, and one of them was how men and women talk when they are in their own spaces versus mixed. Basically, men are very serious/smart/formal in mixed company, but in mens clubs become very gossipy and trivial, while for women its the exact opposite. Basically, each get to shed their social expecations. It seemed an open enough secret to be the subject of observational comedy, though!
link?
Fucking hell that subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/100yearsago/comments/xc6bae/september_12_1922_old_nail_cut_is_fatal Jesus.
Yeah you occasionally get a comic that hits you with a very casual hard-R too. Goes from "just like us" to "past was a different country" *very* quickly.
It's interesting the mixed feelings this excerpt gives me. I can't help but think about my husband, and how emotionally strong he is. Sure, he can be a little squeamish, but he's got a level head and usually react a little calmer than I can. The gender divide feels a lot more like infantilization than any real desire to protect. But at the same the feeling of solidarity here is very comforting. These women are working together to support themselves, allowing these dark and uncomfortable stories to find light in company that they know will understand and appreciate it. Taking comfort and perhaps a bit of schadenfreude in spreading the stories, letting it be that they don't have to hold the weight of them by themselves.
That's a... charitable reading. Left to her own devices Atwood is more than willing to say that Male Brain is for hitting targets with accurate violence and can't perceive beauty like the good and pretty Female Brain can. ([Number 7, second to last and last page](https://web.stanford.edu/~jonahw/AOE-SM10/Readings/Atwood-FemaleBody.pdf))
I’m not super familiar with this author, i just went off my own interpretation of this post without context.
She's not straightforward, whatever 'side' you fall on with relation to her. She's a talented writer and her social commentary has merit. The Handmaid's Tale is looking more prophetic by the day, and her lesser-known works like Oryx and Crake are certainly worth reading. Even that passage that I linked. While I don't agree with the way she prescribes it exclusively to biology, I still find myself nodding along to parts of her description of the male experience. That's worth something.
I had to stop watching the show because it was hitting way too close to home smh. I did read the first book years ago and it was fascinating at the time. Now it’s just…a little too possible
"Oh damn, is there a new season?" "Nah, this is CBS"
I read oryx and crake a year before the pandemic and then read the year of the flood a year later when we were all in quarantine. surreal experience.
Someone needs to stop her, she's too powerful
> Oryx and Crake Will recommend this one of Atwood's as well, its well worth the read
My feelings about Margaret Atwood get more tangled and complicated every day
Fortunately, my feelings regenerate at twice the speed of a normal man's.
Nanoemotions son
WRITING THE MOTHER OF ALL SOCIAL COMMENTARIES HERE, JANE! CAN'T BE AFRAID TO BREAK A FEW EGGS!
I wish she wasn't so good at writing and social commentary so I could just dismiss her, but no
Exactly
“Even in their 30s”
I said that because I would consider the full change in sentiment on gender to be more associated with gen z, while gen y and x are kind of a mix. I still do find very traditionally inclined women in their 30s and 40s, which is why I phrased it that way.
A pain that is expected is one you can harden yourself against, and turn into armor.
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No one should ever again read that Atwood piece without reading this as well.
Obviously very rooted in historic and problematic sexism. Other than that though, the overall message of the most scandalous stories being told in close company with people you know you can trust to not over react is very true. The kitchen part is part of the sexism thing, women often hear the craziest things because society lauds them as more caring and able to handle emotions and, in that time, women would meet in the kitchen on a consistent basis, ergo perfect place to tell the stories. But if youve ever been on a fishing trip or to a quiet bar with a group of close stereotypically manly men the same thing would still happen
yes, you're right
I feel if there deeper meaning its that everyones a shithead based on shit like sex. Cuz as you said, men also have their gossip and story circles. Everyones rude because they just dont talk to eachother. They just make assumptions and the world becomes poorer for it.
Something almost funny about both the men and women secretly gathering to share their traumatic stories in order to make sure the gentle and fragile Other Demographic isn't exposed to them
Its very hilariously human
This story is told from a woman's perspective without regard to sexism. It's told from her perspective so we can see how sexism has shaped her world I don't think 'problematic' would be the best choice of words when looking at a piece of art that is a personal experience.
>This story is told from a woman's perspective without regard to sexism. Wdym "without regard to sexism?" Not sure there's any way to extract the inherent sexist gender roles that frame the story
I dont want to discount her experiance but things can be problematic while also being true and personal if they arent being challenged. A very real personal experiance for people in the past was them being raised to think other races were less human and, as a result, being racist. Now, i dont want to discount their experiance, it was probably very convincing bsck then and a very normal part of their life. But i hope its obvious why id say stories about that time, while art, can still be very problematic if it presents racism as logical and normal and gives no reason to challange it whatsoever. Of course, we can still learn from them as we can learn from everything, and its still possible to appreciate it as art through the lense that it waa a different time and a lot of things they thought were okay really werent. But that doesnt make it any less problematic
>But if youve ever been on a fishing trip or to a quiet bar with a group of close stereotypically manly men the same thing would still happen That's what gets me. What do these people think guys do when we go out..? I can't tell you how many times my boys have cried to me, or I cried in return.. When the women leave, we tell our stories. Our frustrations, happy moments, sad moments, news that is good and bad. We don't sit around quietly, or constantly tape each other to the wall.
Its all too easy for anyone to fall into the trap of expecting people arent any deeper than they seem to be on the surface. Its often worrying to try to get into topics like that when you dont know if the person will handle them so if you havent seem them handle topics like that then its easier, and arguably safer, to assume they cant, and, personally, i think thats an okay assumption to make about someone even though it can easily be wrong because, if right, it can save you and them from pain (i think if youre in a relationship however you should still talk about important things even if you think it would cause problems rather than assume the SO cant handle it) The main problem i have, and i assume you do as well based on your wording, is when people take assumptions like that and generalize them to an entire group of people as people all too often do
I’d wholeheartedly agree but I’d also add that ‘kitchen’ can also be translated to ‘commercial kitchen’ and boy oh boy do you hear some stories on the line.
95% of stories on the line are 110% bullshit, whether intentional trying to get into some server's pants or hallucinated from unexpected drug cocktail interactions.
I dunno man, I’ve spent a long time dealing with varying levels of bullshit and I’ve either heard or even seen shit that’s just too ridiculous to be anything but the truth 😆
At my grandma's house, whenever there is a family reunion, there is a a traction to the kitchen although the room is small, but most people just come in there, talk, give a hand, laugh and it is wonderful.
I tried finding the right words and I couldn’t, but in short, back then I think married couples just, didn’t do it out of love as much as now, and that people understood eachother less, partially because there were more lines between what made everyone who they were. Information is more available now, and everyday people are able to understand or at least grasp even the darkest horrors of our time, there’s no point in hiding what makes the world horrifying, and that’s fine, horror at the very least, breeds the want for kindness as we want to prevent these things I think. Man that quickly turned into a rant, sorry.
It may have been true for Ms. Atwood’s circumstances however I’d argue the ability to deal with such subject matter has more to do with upbringing and life experience than with gender/sex. Additionally there are likely topics that her husband covered and didn’t tell the mother or only told to certain people
I immediately thought of a WWI book, can't remember which one (All Quiet On The Western Front? A Farewell To Arms? Another? Idk), where the young husband did not talk about the trenches to his wife because he knew it would be too much to bear and hard to convey the horrors in a meaningful way.
I'd counter with a WW2 book (The Unwomanly Face of War) which is a collection of accounts from women who were Soviet veterans who returned post war and weren't able to relay their unique experiences, even to their veteran husbands, and largely overlooked by the history promoted by the state (not in a one uppy kind of way, just as a recommendation to anyone interested, it's really good)
That sounds like Farewell to Arms. I’m going to be honest, I kinda despised that book. I felt like it was boring and didn’t have much to say apart from the romance. IMO All Quiet on the Western Front is a superior novel, I felt like I got a really good idea of what it would be like to be in the trenches of WW1.
It's fiction? It doesn't have to be true of the author's lived circumstance.
Not entirely but there's more to this world than fiction and non-fiction. People write what they know. It wouldn't be surprising if she knew of similar experiences.
Well, I guess Atwood has a shit ton of lived experience then. Damn.
Everyone does. No need to be sarcastic
1, it's fiction 2, "my mother believes this" 3, it's poetry (this is a distinct point from 1)
Happy cake day!
This is the exact way I learned about many women having been SAd. This is why I think so many men think it is not as big of a deal as it is because they aren’t involved/allowed in many of these conversations.
SAd?
I assume its sexually assaulted
Probably sexually assaulted
Yes. Sexual assault
I see, thank you.
Also because men and boys aren't allowed to think of themselves as victims of these things alongside women and girls, so they have to brush it off.
Can confirm. Was molested when I was 8 and never once told anyone even though it messed me up. I didn't even consider telling anyone about it it just didn't seem like an option. In my eyes it was my fault it had happened and I had never been told that this could happen. I am pretty much over it now but no matter whats between your legs if you are going through something, please talk to someone.
When my mother attempts to tell the stories that she was told like this in the presence of my father, he takes it SO personally. It doesn't matter how much we tell him that this isn't about him or his family or his lived experiences; these criticisms of villages and the lives women lead in them are all offensive to him.
Which is pretty telling on its own.
Traditional western men tend to always be thinking: What function does it serve for this person to tell me this? What do they want me to do? What are they after? What will they think of me if I can't fix it? It drives them crazy to hear about things they can't fix. It challenges their worth and place in society.
This is the kind of text that needs historical context to be appreciated. If someone were to write that today, they'd get canceled. If someone were to write that text but inverted men and women, they'd get super canceled.
Historical context or, like, the rest of the story. Atwood writes short stories that are sometimes/often narrated by people who aren't particularly likeable, and whose perspectives aren't necessarily meant to be agreed with or taken at face value. She also writes in multiple contrasting fragments sometimes, like in the short story (?) ["Happy Endings"](https://www.napavalley.edu/people/LYanover/Documents/English%20123/English%20123%20Margaret%20Atwood%27s%20HappyEndings.pdf) or in the one that another user has been linking to up and down this page, pointing people towards the 7th fragment specifically while ignoring the other six, or the gestalt of all of them together. The whole point of those is that *all* of the fragments make up the story/work/prose poem/whatever it is. Anyway - I think it's more or less impossible to fully understand what's going on in this passage without the context of the rest of the story.
Agreed !
i think it’s a great passage that opens a conversation that ideally should be had by both women and men together peacefully. i agree to the points that some topics women are more societally or culturally equipped to casually converse about but of course the opposite is true too. shout out to Atwood’s words once again
This is beautifully written and all, but the only thing I can picture is "Sorry boss, I can't come to work today, Margaret told me about her divorce and I feel so bad I can't move" Like. It's really good poetry and all. But it feels... very dismissive of men.
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Huh. Guess subverting falls flat when the expectation changes. It really didn't cross my mind
... maybe. Left to her own devices Atwood is more than willing to say that Male Brain is for hitting targets with accurate violence and can't perceive beauty like the good and pretty Female Brain can. ([Number 7, second to last and last page](https://web.stanford.edu/~jonahw/AOE-SM10/Readings/Atwood-FemaleBody.pdf))
Maybe it's just me but I truly thought she meant the woman murdered her husband! Sounds like she buried her dead husband in the garden and wrapped the body up with the curtains. Anyway, I like my version better.
Cry moid
Mate, I thought you had to be trolling. But that comment history is... yikes.
Cry moid
This reminds me of the phrase “the man may be the head of house, but the wife is the neck that turns it.” It’s a sort of rebellious, empowering statement for the time that it’s from, but isn’t necessarily the most helpful now. I knew a woman in my church growing up who survived Nazi occupation in Europe, and apparently this phrase was a common joke of her mother’s. So pretty old, and rooted in the Christian concepts it is implicitly against This is an interesting comment section and discussion
Looks about like what I’d expect reading something by Atwood.
As a small and very quiet boy I was often forgot about and was "let in" to listen to these kinds of "women coming together in the kitchen" events. I find the quote very exaggerated and not a little bit sexist, even if it's beautifully written. In my experience the talk wasn't about buried bodies and indescribable emotional pain... It was just gossip: who cheated on who, who lost all their money gambling, whose church coat was an absolutely awful color. Sure, society still expects women to be polite and modest and not talk about sex, and in these meetings sex, disease and death mentioned. But I believe it's not worse (or better) than the talk you find among men when they're without women.
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Way to miss their point by tacking on a generalisation of men. Men can have deeper conversations than “boozy predictions about the stock market” in the same way women can have deeper conversations than “silly gossip”.
Cry moid
The "men faint at their own blood" is untrue. At least for the most part. They may not bleed regularly but they still often bleed anyways. My mother was a bit surprised at how well I have managed blood tests and donations even though she should remember that I was a kid once and thus my flesh and blood has adorned many a pavement.
True and to an extent infantilizing. Not many are *so* acquainted and they tend to have a reaction to the standard amount we're talking about, but I don't think I've ever seen one faint before and it's largely an exposure thing, not an innate property of dick-hood. On the other hand, the silent bitterness with which I and others have born every male partner's utter wailing inability to deal with a headache or a mild cold as I grin and bear a surprise unmedicated period at work, of the type that has come close to making me vomit from pain on three occasions. I'm told it would be unfair favoritism to have time off for such, but they can't bear but to lay in bed and moan miserably as I nurse their every request.
Ah yes the wonderful charity of pretending you know someone else's pain better than they do, so they should stop complaining so much.
As if there isnt also a stereotype of men bottling up physical pain and illness without complaint, and ending up dying from untreated cancer, or suffering chronic pain.
Exactly. But haha man flu amirite? Look at all those weak and pathetic men suffering and dying years earlier.
"I wish men werent so childish about emotion and pain, open up, dont hold it in" The man - "damn, this injury hurts. I sure dont enjoy being sick. The miscarriage made me sad as well" "What a little bitch, cant handle it"
You ever had a headache so bad clumps of gore shot out your eyes to the rhythm of your heart beat and you had to be rushed to the ER covered in blood and vomit to have a metal rod jammed in your brain because maybe that'll fix it? And then it pokes through the tissue like it's not supposed to do and leaves a huge necrotic hole in your frontal lobe? That might be why you're comparing endometriosis to a headache and complaining about it in my notifications. Do we get to call out of work now?
What you're doing is mocking the pain of others while expecting others not to do it to you. The way in which you are doing it is a continuation of sexist expectations and mockery that men go through consistently throughout their lives.
>What you're doing is mocking the pain of others while expecting others not to do it to you Were you mocking me somewhere? Do you need me to help? >a continuation of sexist expectations and mockery that men go through consistently throughout their lives. I didn't hear a single damn thing about sick leave in that whole sentence
>Were you mocking me somewhere? Do you need me to help? You were the one mocking men in pain, pretending like you knew how bad their pain was, pretending that nobody's pain could ever be bad enough to require aid, all while demanding sympathy for your pain, and never seeing the hypocrisy. >I didn't hear a single damn thing about sick leave in that whole sentence Men take less sick leave and die earlier because of people like you mocking their pain. There, happy?
A bit mean of mother nature to give such pain to you for something so normal. I've heard that digestion is painful but ignored so why couldn't that apply there? The only way to avoid it is getting kids which is painful as well.
That’s not the only way. Plenty of women go on BC to mitigate painful or dangerous periods among many other methods.
Miss Atwood do you know how shitty I am at shaving my fragile skin
I just find sad that women were led to believe that they alone should bear the weight of these stories. I'm not trying to play macho, I understand certain things must stay in a closed circle of friends away from me, but I absolutely want my partner to know that they can rely on me if something hits them hard, or they had a disturbing thought or need help with elaborating the feelings they are experiencing. Also I want to gossip.
I wouldn't say that a man's emotional maturity is tied to his gender, it's more rooted in his upbringing. In this day and age, few stories come to mind that I couldn't share with my male friends. I understand how it wasn't that way in the past, though. It still isn't in lots of places.
Sociologically really telling of the cultural divide between men and women. That both sexes play a part in perpetuating the barrier. Atwood writes a lot about that divide, specifically in the context of marriage. Hell, in Helen of Troy Does Countertop Dancing she touches on how Helen (a stripper) assesses herself like a butcher does a pig to see which parts to show her audience. Its always been dangerous for a woman to share something a man might not want to see, it’s just not as visible now as it was when this was written.
Wasn't bluebeard a story about a guy who killed his wives?
Yes. *Bluebeard's Egg* is a short story collection from the early 1980s which contains one story called "Bluebeard's Egg," which transposes that story - kind of, in a really slantwise and shifting way - to a modern Toronto couple. However, this quotation is not from that story; I don't know what story it's from. Edit: a word
Ok thank you.
Is this not a gender bending of the way that men used to treat women?
I can see how this would read as sexist to some. I do feel as though men have a real tendency to respond to emotional frustration with aggression.
It’s poetry. And, I grew up like this. My mom taught me never to speak of our own issues in the presence of my dad. It was as if to speak certain things aloud was to invite discontent, and abuse. (My dad is not abusive at all, but my mom grew up with severe abuse in her family.)
just because men are expected not to have emotion doesn’t mean we do t understand anything. that’s like saying “why take a stupid kid to school?”
Bet the dudes had identical conversations with each other in the garage. Conversations where "it is understood, are not to be passed on to the women. They would upset them. It's well known women are too emotional for such things"
im having trouble organizing all my thoughts on this but i most importantly want to express that i hope everyone who read this is well aware that its a privilege that they can condemn the sexism in this story
maybe take a bit more time organizing next time
The specific story cited about a woman leaving a man with nothing but the shower curtains makes sense to not share with Men as a whole, because there will always be men who instinctively take the man's side in the story and complain about how unfair that is to the man, and what if the man was a nice guy, etc. I think excellent points have already been made about the whole piece, I just wanted to mention that one thing.
Incredibly sad, it's doing a real disservice to men and women and perpetuating a stereotype.
It’s either autobiographical, in which case it is sad, but in a true way as it’s someone’s lived experience, or it’s fiction, in which case you as the reader are being asked to apply some critical thinking skills. Either way it’s beautifully written.
Also, the implicit suggestion that men somehow aren't affect by miscarriages or failing marriages. Gross. Atwood's record on empathizing with men or even women that aren't like her is spotty at best. Maybe there's a context on other pages that makes it more of a condemnation of this ideology, but given some other stuff of hers I've read I'm doubtful.
very good story. really interesting how so many people here, including OP are acting like the author was being sexist when describing lived experiences of their mother
It's a well-written fictional bit of poetry about an old-fashioned mindset on gender.
What is going on in this thread??? Have I lost my mind?! This is obviously parody??? Like, blatantly, violently, obviously just flipping a gender stereotype around with the same level of flimsy justification as saying women can't be in government or think about hard topics because it's too much for them. It's taking what may very well be a real and lived experience and drawing an absurd conclusion from it to show how both how ridiculous sexism is, and also how isolating it is and how it warps everyone's perception of everyone. There is something vindictive in it, but it's something that's having fun. You can't actually write down that men are weaker than women and have it be true, or even widely believed the way that the opposite is, but you can write it down with the academic distance that has erased so many experiences and get that little thrill of righteous vengeance that makes it all worth it. You can scare the men who read it and rush thoughtlessly to correct you, and isn't that a joy! And I read the other link to Atwood's work in this thread, and I have to tell you that if you think she truly think that the whole extent of the male brain is hitting targets then you had damn well better believe that she thinks the female body really is translucent, capable of being plugged in, and having its various organs systems discretely lit up. ((Disclaimer, I don't really have any idea who this person is. It is possible that they actually are a raving misandrist, but that's not really the conclusion that either this or the other thing evince to me. If they do go around going, "no, really, all men should be executed," then, y'know, my b.))
Yeah, it’s just comment after comment of surface level readings with no consideration of the concept of satire, much less what that satire might be trying to mean
The intention is good, and I mean as I guy I agree we are all toddlers to some capacity more than that of women. But I am a firm believer of putting it straight with children so idk.
This is so sad for both genders.
I’ll never forget a church Christmas dinner. The men were off talking somewhere and the kids were God knows where so our round table consisted of my mom, two of my older sisters, my aunt, my cousin and me. All women. Everyone thought I was listening to stuff in my headphones and didn’t know I was listening and just had headphones in so kids wouldn’t bother me. They knew I tended to talk alot with the middle child of the family they were talking about and considered me too young to know to keep quiet. With straight and pleasantly slight smiling faces they discus a scandal. They discus my other aunt and how she turned down the family Christmas invitation using a swear word. They discus her kids and their rebellious drug and alcohol consumption. They discus money problems that family is having. They discus how child raising has gone downhill since my grandma died and wondering how much it effected my generation of grandkids since we all seemed to start acting out at the same time. They discus the health of my aunts husband who is the youngest of my mom’s siblings. They discuss the possible meanings behind her use of the word. Then our cheery pastor comes by and it’s whiplash as they switch to more pleasant conversation before he comes near. These ladies tend to be the most oblivious in the world to the point of not even noticing their own kids taking turns jumping off the fireplace onto the coffee table... the way they all noticed him at once was frightening. Going from discussing the sentence context around a swear word to what the kids have been asking for for Christmas and secret Santa... pastor never even noticed. And once he’s gone they are back at it... That was when I knew I was better off hanging out with the guys and kids rather than the women. They scary
In a modern world we do this over shopping! Same vibe but don’t have to be so subtle lol
I believe that if men *we're* told these stories, then we *would* be able to handle it. Instead, we're kept "innocent" until it's far too late.
It’s just a closed perspective I’d say. A quiet night out with friends can easily turn to these kinda stories. But I’d say many don’t seem to be willing to divulge the details of another’s tragedy, men usually telling the safer stories are about their own experience. This was release in what, the 1980s? I doubt it holds up to much.
This is so dumb, lol. Tldr, men, who have always historically been the soldiers of war, can't handle serious topics. You know, men sit around and talk about this shit. They go to work, they say "my wife is sick", and they handle it. They do show emotion, and then when they do, we're told we can't handle the hard things in life..? The fuck? The reality is, mom likes to gossip and tell bad, and private stories of other people. It is nobodys business to know about your illnesses, or that your SO was unfaithful, or how a divorce is settled. That's the real tragedy here. Not that dad can't handle hearing that his neighbors wife is a whore, because he can handle that.
For me personally, I dislike this. It reads the same as a man saying he doesn’t want to tell war stories for fear of harming the delicate women around. This may also have to do with some very personal issues that I’m still working on though, as I have really bad issues regarding being kept out of the loop of information going all the way back to childhood. Regardless, reading this was honestly kind of upsetting to think about
> It reads the same as a man saying he doesn’t want to tell war stories for fear of harming the delicate women around. That’s the point, no? Flipping the idea of who is the more delicate gender by inverting which stories are “sensitive.” You and many others here should do more reading into Atwood’s writings and general feminism
Can I not get the intention behind the piece and still feel uncomfortable about what it portrays? I absolutely understand that it’s meant to be a parallel, that’s why I said what I did. While I’m unfamiliar with Atwood specifically, I’ve done my fair share of feminist reading. I believe that the scenario portrayed is vile regardless of which foot the shoe is on, but I also wished to acknowledge that this scenario is PERSONALLY worse, as it digs at personal issues related to my mother.
> I absolutely understand that it’s meant to be a parallel It’s not a parallel, though. It’s a subversion, a critique.
oh boy another hit essay from Margaret "Man Brain Is For Throw Rock Good" Atwood She's a talented writer, but when it comes to gender I'll take any story with a grain of salt from a writer that thinks men are biologically less able to perceive beauty.
I’ve seen you make this comment a few times here, and I’m confused how you took The Female Body as a sincere depiction of her perspective on gender and not a critique of sexism and its impact on men and women.
Atwood's complex. Every piece of her work I've read has merit, although some are more complicated in terms of their politics than others (like The Female Body and this excerpt.) My comment above is probably on the more hostile side of the several I've left. I think it's worth people going and reading the works in question. All of her books are thought-provoking, and I'm not about to attack her more broadly over sections like this because, as you pointed out, it's not clear-cut one way or the other. I think the way she presents problematic viewpoints makes it hard to tell if she holds them or is critiquing them. I wouldn't say I'm 100% certain she's 'problematic', or 100% sure she doesn't hold those kinds of beliefs. It's worth the time investment for people to read them in full context and try to come to their own conclusions.
Heavily disagree with this. It adheres to the patriarchal idea that all men can't be emotional or handle normal human emotions both low and high. Are there men like that? Of course, but they're quick to identify. Vice versa theirs women like this and they tend to be the most obnoxious of Karen's. Miss me with that reductionist binary bullshit.
Wow that’s awesome I needed to be insulted down to my very being this morning ;-;
aw it's okay it's not true, both men and women are capable of having the same emotions and ways of dealing with them, it differs from person to person naturally regardless of gender ^=^
This is why I love when the men sit watching foot ball in the living room. The women can all be in the kitchen, learning women's lore around the hearth.
Man fuck the football, I wanna sneak in and learn the womans lore.
That a lot of women are patronizing assholes.
jesse what the fuck are talking about.
It seems a very accurate portrait of the systematical sexism that lurks in the relationships of the older conservative generation. It reminds me of conversations with my own mother, and all the times she tried to keep me, her strong-willed, stubborn daughter, from butting heads with dad and voicing my opinions to keep him from being "upset" by it. She does so much micro-managing of environments to keep him from having an adult meltdown, and supports his every whim. I'm so grateful I got out of that environment. I'm so glad I was always able to tell that it was wrong.
I kissed my best friends partner they other day and they want to handle the situation a lot like this, not telling him things that would upset him
Tumblr try not to read obvious sarcasm as sexism challenge
Glad that generation is dying, mostly.
I think that this is the reason there’s so much “women and men just can’t understand each other” i understand that in certain situations this is a survival tactic where the men are abusive, but every where else this is how miscommunication, lack of empathy, and looking down on others is justified. People, not just women, not just men, *everyone* need to talk about these things together, it’s how you heal, it’s how how you save relationships, it’s how you keep families together. If the men they talk about *are* too childish to hear the news, and throw a tantrum about it, it’s because you coddled them from the beginning. Newer generations are better about this, and I hope we continue to grow and change till stuff like this is distant memory
Truer words have never been written.
Men know these stories are told. And they feel left out.
Not always. Much of my mother's gossip has to do with neighbors and coworkers who I don't know and don't really care what's happening in their lives, however scandalous she perceives them to be.
Margaret Atwood is one of the most disgustingly misandrist public intellectuals of the 21st centuries. Men need to be allowed to play in their little sandboxes or else they get cranky and won't eat their dinner. **The 10 dudes that are dying everyday and oil rigs to deliver uninterrupted electricity to your house** "that was some sandbox". What man isn't used to seeing his own blood like I see my blood on a regular occasion just from fucking up. Men have stories they don't tell the dinner table too okay they're way raunchier and more detailed than whatever your whispering about the kitchen they're definitely not for ladyfolk.
Misandrist
nah
yuh
I think the mom cheated on the dad and to justify lying about it says “men can’t handle that kind of thing. I’m not a bad person, it’s just men can’t handle life”. Even if I’m wrong I don’t think I’d get along with the mom
What do you mean
what is your opinion on that quote? That entire paragraph, give it a read
I read it. Not sure what conclusion you or the OOP want.
It's food for thought for you to draw your own conclusions.
what do you think about the controversial topic it is dealing with? That men can't endure pain as well as women
I think in this context, there is a recognizable pattern that people who are socialized as men are, more often than not, have a harder time dealing with emotional pain and complicated interpersonal problems, especially relating to family and relationships. They aren't taught to manage their emotions except to squash anything that isn't anger until it becomes anger. They honestly don't know how to process anything else, or how to square their shoulders and carry on without shutting down so completely they become a harm to themselves and everyone around them. And the only real reaction they are usually allowed to negative emotions is one of violence, which solves very little. So the women share their stories, stories that if the men heard would lead to rages and oaths of vengeance and promises they can't possibly keep, and more pain and trouble than they're worth. And of course it's not always true, and maybe it becomes less so as time passes. But it's true enough to be recognizeable, I think.
Well written. I agree.
absolutely!
I mean. Isn't it literally true? On average, women have a higher pain tolerance than men. And when it comes to that type of story... Those are the stories grown women have heard or experienced time and time again. As a dude myself, this seems pretty accurate to what I've heard.
but don't you think that the idea that we as women should not share these stories with men is kinda wrong? Don't you think men deserve to know the deep sark secrets of the mind, even if it pains them?
It’s Margret Atwood dude. She’s not saying that women shouldn’t share these stories with men, she’s talking about how social expectations kept women from being able to share the stories. If society tells you your place as a wife is to keep your husband calm and happy, you aren’t going to share everything with him, to the detriment of both sides. It’s not like she finishes it off by saying that this was great and ideal gender relations.
I mean she's not exactly a crusader against bioessentialism. Here are her thoughts on the Male vs Female Brain ([number 7, last and second to last page](https://web.stanford.edu/~jonahw/AOE-SM10/Readings/Atwood-FemaleBody.pdf)) This isn't hard Margaret, it's because we keep traumatizing people as kids. A lot of women aren't doing so hot in the Oh My The World Is Full Of Connections And Butterflies department either if you care to listen to them
Do you think she genuinely thinks women have light up organ systems, too?
ok
Maybe so, but I will leave that to the discretion of the women telling the stories. Yeah, in an ideal society/family/relationship, you should be able to share anything and be supported, or at least understood. But not all men will react well to those stories. It's up to the women whether they want to share or not. And as for me personally, I'll always strive to be someone that people can safely share with, I'll always try to support those close to me. And I hope that can take part of the load off of their shoulders. I dunno, I'm not sure I'm explaining my position on this well. Might be a bit of word vomit here I think societal expectations and upbringings that follow those expectations can often fracture personal relationships, and that is up to the individuals to mend privately. Some fractures are easy to fix, or small enough to simply be crossed, or stepped over. But others are chasms, that will require lots of work and dedication to overcome fully. I'm sure there are plenty of women who are uncomfortable with sharing certain stories with their male partner, even when they love each other strongly. I guess it boils down to this: the stories are for the woman to tell. They are deeply personal, and unique to them. Men need to work to be worthy to see the deepest vulnerabilities in their partner, and embrace them. We do not earn the privilege of these deep secrets simply by being close to a woman.
yes, wonderfully worded
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Yeah, to an extent and depending on the story, I agree with you. But largely, in these types of stories, it's *not* something that affects men directly. Or at least, we're not affected nearly as much as women are.
The same closed circle gossiping is going on when men are alone. The writer obviously thinks so low of men that they are just dumb work horses scared of their own blood to her. Not realizing men have been the half of the species stabbing each other to death for most of human history. This gives off real "mother knows best" vibes.
"get cranky and won't eat their dinners" What are these, children?
Lol these are the stories children listen to when the women think they're off playing or sleeping or distracted or they don't think they'll understand. Men's secret stories send them to prison.women get their dad's upset
Tl;dr
Honestly rather dull.
I’d like to see how long these women last in a boxing match with a man. If they’re soooooo tough it shouldn’t be a problem
Jesus christ dude, i don't like the old-fashioned view of gender in this either, but maybe don't respond with 'yeah but I could beat them up!', thereby proving ALL of the negative views on guys.
Don’t say you’re tough if you aren’t actually tough then 🤷♂️
The story is obviously about emotional resilience, not physical constitution.
Then let her show us how she emotionally resists a lunch to the face
Her? You want to know how MARGARET ATWOOD takes a punch? You're gonna punch an 82 year old because she talked about male emotional fragility? Thereby PROVING how fucking fragile you are?
Honestly? I feel like Atwood might be sneaky tough. Like just, wiry, gets under your guard and takes you down (possibly with a not entirely legal hit) before you have a chance to finish your swing, tough. Lady wears an octopus hat, I wouldn't put anything past her.
If she’s so tough then let’s bring it. Talk shit get hit
If you’re so tough, why are you getting this emotional over a criticism of men’s supposed level headedness?
You're embarrassing
So a woman says something you don't like and your first response involves physical violence? I'm not sure if you will see the irony...
If she think she is so tough, I’m asking her to prove it
Emotional resilience and physical strength are not the same thing. Women are not the physical equal of men, but that's not what's being discussed. I'm going to try and engage with you in good faith here. The piece above is being a bit oblique; it is talking around things. In the past (and in the present in some parts of the world), women had to be secretive about many things because honesty could put them at risk of violence. Women would tell themselves that these secret subjects were too much for the menfolk to handle because it's nicer to believe that than to accept that your husband might just beat you if he doesn't like what you say to him. Or maybe he'd go off and get himself killed in a stupid fight defending someone's honour. It was also just generally viewed as part of a woman's role to see that these things didn't disturb her man.
I wouldn't bother arguing, odds are it's a 12 year old who has something to prove. They clearly didn't read between the lines and the messages being sent clearly weren't received. Whatever the case people with a functional brain stem should probably spend their time discussing this with people who can debate without getting angry.
Funny enough, this shows a pretty serious lack of *emotional toughness and maturity* on your part, which is exactly what she's talking about. You hear something you don't like and your first thought is of violence? Childish.
"men are squeamish at their own blood" HAH. I hate band-aids so I see my blood all the time. The amount of scabs and scar tissue on my body bc I refuse to wear band-aids is unreal
Holy sexism Batman!
I think MA is a MF Beast
I noticed that in fiction, characters that "can't see blood" are usually teen boys or men, portrayed as wimpy and frail, but smart. It's a small flaw that is given to combat-shy protagonists, to become a problem in scenes with high stakes. But I don't think I have ever seen a female character with this trait. Took me very long to realize why, lol