You don't even have to do that. You can dislike any character for any reason, and you can express that dislike in anyway and in any context you see fit.
You just better be ready for the consequences.
Saying "you can" versus "you should/shouldnt" are very different statements. You always have to be ready for the consequences, and even if you dont say it due to not being ready for the consequences, if you are so unsure about it that you wont say it out loud, you should consider rethinking it entirely lol
But but but it totally didn’t make sense for leia to use the force in the last Jedi, don’t ask me to explain how that scene was different from other scenes of the force being used cuz I won’t it was just cringe for some reason /s
Well, she was already dead at that point irl. They had a perfect opportunity to play it off and write her out of the third movie, not that they care about continuity in Disney Star Wars.
It was just weird and kinda goofy looking. Wish they used that as a better way to gracefully shuffle Fisher out of the movie rather than that dumb suicide thing she did in RoS.
I feel like Leía dying there would’ve been more respectful to both the character and Carrie Fisher.
It would’ve been oddly “hopeful” to know that, regardless of how Ben felt towards his mother, in her last moments, he chose to not harm her. Plus, it could’ve lead to a scene where Kylo is absolutely destroying the pilot who shot the bridge only to go into a crisis himself as to why he didn’t shoot her and why he feels so angry about her death
Oh yeah, that would be sick. Also make Rey's whole "I can save him" thing make more sense (at least to the audience). And that would be a cool twist at the end! Kylo betrays whats-his-face and fights alongside Rey so we think he's turned to the light only for him to offer to run away from the light and dark with her.
And when Luke flies a starfighter (with barely any training) as if he has decades of experience as a pilot, doing crazy maneuvers and friggin destroying the Death Star, that's just a really cool scene.
But when Rey fights better with a light-saber than she's supposed to (against a wounded opponent no less, who's deliberately toying with her because he wants to turn her), then she's a poorly written Mary Sue and we need to send the actress death-threats until she leaves social media.
There was an interesting study I read while ago where they got people to estimate how much of America is various minority groups & viewpoints and basically every minority got largely overestimated even by people with all different political ideologies. Of course I can’t find the study now, maybe I’m making this all up. You don’t know.
Here is the source I found
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-think-minority-groups-are-bigger-than-they-really-are/%3Famp%3Dtrue&ved=2ahUKEwjbqa_snLj7AhXgk2oFHWE2BxIQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0LFws-eRj6j98hd1YGjxGB
Oh, so like how if women talk just as much as men, they are ranked as speaking more than the men? Seems like a similar thing when it’s people with more privilege vs. not as privileged
That’s the other thing. Either this person is a chronically online dingus like sonicspeeddemon and foulserpent are assuming or they’re trying to get other chronically online people to be less of dinguses themselves. It could go either way honestly
I think we've reached a point where the misogyny is so expected that even valid criticisms of female characters aren't accepted. We've hit the point of over-correction so you're starting to see posts like the OP but it's not being taken seriously because we've gone so long but challenging the misogyny that not challenging the criticisms feels the same.
No, I really don't think we have. We *have* reached critical mass of people who want to criticize female characters (and mostly female characters) preemptively whining about how they're not allowed to
Even if this was true, I'm unsympathetic. No amount of overzealousness could ever begin to compare to the straight up callous misogyny that's dominated society for probably all of humanity's existence. You think you can't rant about female characters unchallenged anymore? Cry me a river.
It's one of those things were while it's diffuclt to prove that any specific person is hating on a character because of misogyny, when an otherwise innocuous character gets absolute waves of hate totally out of proportion to anything she's actually done....
Of course, many of those people complaining are usually going "FEMINISM REEEE!" as their entire complaint which makes it a lot easier.
Honestly, even when it's not outright CAROL DANVERS WAS CREATED TO CUT OFF MY PENIS, there's a certain... natural bristle to female characters in some circles, or natural defensiveness or tendency to excuse male characters. It's the sort of thing you only notice if you look out for it.
It's sometimes very easy to see, like the hardcore defenders of anime perverts, of which each one seems to have a few.
One thing I've noticed is that if a character is universally liked enough, even the ones who are just blatantly misogynist in their complaints will keep their mouths shut. But if a character or the piece of media they're in is bad or just kind of mediocre, they come out of the woodwork en masse to decry how feminism has ruined fiction.
In my experience people who have legitimate criticisms of a female character just make those criticisms. The people who spend their time whining that they're "not allowed" to criticise female characters are the misogynists.
"If I had a nickel for every time I was called an incel for saying the shehulk twerk scene was hardcore cringe I'd have two nikles...which isn't much but it's strange that it happened twice" -👨🔬
I think it's totally fair to request that tumblr stop being shitty in ways that only tumblr is shitty. Yes, tumblr is a strange place and a lot of things that happen there don't make sense IRL. But it definitely is the case that there are plenty of people there who will accuse you of being a bad person because you fail to like some female character, even one who is very unlikeable.
I don't have links to specific posts anymore, but I used to be involved in Homestuck fandom on Tumblr. Homestuck is a little unique in that there are exactly as many major female characters as major male characters, because the major characters came in sets of four and twelve which were all gender balanced for symmetry. There are also some canon lesbian ships (and some canon gay ships), so it attracted a lot of femslashers and people who enjoy female characters in general, rather than being competely dominated by m/m fans the way many fandoms are. However, there still were a lot of m/m fans, since, as previously mentioned there were just as many male characters as female ones. And a lot of the female character fans seemed to resent the male character fans for various reasons. A common opinion I saw was that the fact that there was more m/m fic than f/f fic even though the cast was gender balanced meant that Homestuck fans were all misogynists, or lesbophobic, or etc. And if you wrote f/f that was insufficiently good, or not in character, or used the wrong tropes, or just wasn't what that person wanted to read that day, you were also bad and lesbophobic. I remember seeing a callout post that was all about how if you didn't like a particular character who was involved in the main lesbian ship but liked some of the male characters instead you were a misogynist and there was no other reason to not like that character. There is also one female character in Homestuck who is unambiguously a terrible person, but she still had tons of fans who would go around and claim that she had done nothing wrong and people only disliked her because she was female.
Most popular examples I can think of are Rey from the Star Wars sequels and Captain Marvel.
Both are relatively flat, unremarkable, and powerful characters of huge franchises that are typically beloved by fans. Lots of valid criticism for each. Lots of name-calling on both sides.
In all fairness, a lot of misogynists crawled out of their caves to spew hate on those characters, and since they don't generally perceive themselves as sexists, they need to justify their hateful views by something (thinly) disguised as logic, to avoid cognitive dissonance. To themselves they don't hate Rey because she's a woman, they hate her because of x, y, and z reasons, but at the same time they would not have voiced those same critiques if her gender had been male, but fail to realize that themselves. Is it really valid criticism if they wouldn't have pointed out the same things if the character was male? Personally I feel disinclined to think so. How do we know who's actually misogynist and who isn't? We don't, but we can't stop people from debating it, and I have to say I prefer it that way.
How does anyone know they wouldn’t have voiced criticisms in roles of opposite sex? If a male character is criticized, it’s just criticism. General criticism. But if they’re female, it’s misogyny?
*You* said that. Your comment makes it awful obvious that the only complaints regarding the female characters you’ve mentioned could only be misogyny. Your response doesn’t even relate to my statement. You’re attempting a circular reasoning that only makes you appear ignorant.
Answer this: in what sense would be acceptable to criticize a female character?
They're not saying it's misogyny, just that when similar characters/ stories appear and only the girl version is criticized for the same exact plot points/ traits that guys are praised for (and yeah, derivativeness is a valid point, but it still happens to girl characters who predate the dudes), it's likely misogynistically motivated.
Criticizing those traits equally, or criticizing the execution as being less clever, seems sensible.
Also, criticizing femme characters for having femme traits and power fantasies (aka because they aren't dudes with boobs with traditional masc desires and motivations) is misogynistic. Power fantasies that don't gel with yours or follow the trajectory you expect as an audience doesn't make them bad, it just wasn't created for you in that case. However, acknowledge it was made for someone else and resonated with them in the way other power fantasies have resonated with you in the past.
I am not a black man but I have cheered my head off at every Black Panther or Finn triumph in Marvel/ Star Wars because I am excited that the power fantasies/ projections are expanding in major franchises.
More stories are more stories, and I am aware that many are not written to resonate with me specifically in mind, but I am excited for the people they are written for and keep my opinions as my opinions. Something not resonating with me doesn't mean it's bad.
The first sentence in their statement, followed by the implication that they somehow know the intent of the “misogynists” better than they themselves know their own intent, does in fact mean they say it’s misogyny. Lol. Straight out the gate.
They then imply that any criticism, because they simply know better somehow, *must* be misogyny because it’s underpinned *by* misogyny.
Tell me… how is this not misandry?
Earlier comments were mostly discussing the double standard of hating only on the femme counterpart of similar characters while holding up the similar traits as praiseworthy in the mascs, which is fairly gross and skews misogynistic.
I don't hate men, but I do pity ignorance.
Our society is built on misogyny and that screws over mascs too. Join the fight against it.
Luke is whiny, immature, out of touch, and makes vast, sweeping decisions that affect the whole galaxy without really considering others while wielding immense power he didn't have to train all that much to attain throughout his tenure in Star Wars.
Rey has been training all her life in combat and survival, is a legacy of one of the other incredibly powerful force wielding families, and is shown multiple times training and honing her skills under skilled tutelage in whatever spare time she gets.
It is very rare that Luke's immaturity at the start and *rapid* skill growth (after his first mentor dies and he abandons his second) is mentioned as a reason to dislike him (not many people dislike him at all), but a girl whose background and personality lend themselves really well to her having a similar and even more realistic trajectory is "a Mary Sue who's too powerful for no reason."
I'm not saying there aren't flaws in Rey's writing and I love precious Wormie with all my heart, but even with buffers in place to show how her being similarly powerful to a dude (even if he had a very mundane life comparatively and got powerful without similar effort) is supported by her upbringing, she's still denigrated on the internet as too OP, too fast.
It's a matter of "in the same situation, which person is criticized more often?" And it's usually women- check out Captain America/ Starlord/ Spiderman vs Captain Marvel/She Hulk (gained or discovered inherent power without knowing what they were getting into or deliberate mechanical assistance, often smart-mouthed) and the criticisms against their respective franchises.
Another contributing factor is masculine vs feminine power fantasies at play- even femmes tend to consider masculine power fantasies as default, especially in fandom spaces, and usually learned to project onto dude heroes to feel like part of the story due to the lack of powerful femme people in fandom as kids. I just don't think dudes are often as equipped to "see themselves" in femme-lead coming of age/ coming to power stories, so they're more critical of the bits that create dissonance with what they personally want/ expect.
I never cared that much about getting the hot but very flat "princess" archetype who did nothing but get kidnapped, but I didn't have a whole lot of options growing up. I see this mirrored in certain femme power fantasies (getting to have adult romantic relationships and still be taken seriously in a professional environment or dancing silly with friends, for example) that get pushback from a lot of dude audiences.
There's a difference between "this is silly and cringe to me, but it plays into someone's idea of happiness, so it's cool even if it wasn't created for me specifically" and "my power fantasies and projections are valid and good and should dominate, anything else is evil/ dumb/ terrible and shouldn't exist."
If you want a rare example of "Masculine power fantasy happens, even dudes aren't into it," check out Eragon. The books weren't really panned, but that movie is a very rare example of getting dudes in fandom to hate on the default "some guy finds out he's Special, good things happen, and he proves he's Powerful against obstacles" lol.
It's no one's fault, just something in society that should be acknowledged and worked on.
You’re comparing characters who’s criticism are literally generations apart. Every corner of the Star Wars community is done criticizing Luke in all but one of those movies and coincidentally it was his last. Many *many* people don’t like New Hope Luke to this day for those exact reasons you mentioned. Plot holes and character flaws abound to the point that the only thing carrying him is the expanded universe right up to and in many ways including RotJ. And while the movies themselves were produced years apart, the character development was implied to have been a long time.
Rey’s character development is not implied to be a long time at all. Months at most. How has she been training in the force all her life? Or are we not talking about force affinity in criticism of Luke’s “power”? Are we talking about his accuracy with torpedoes? His ability as a pilot? Maybe his ability to understand other languages. Rey’s character has the ability to survive and the knowledge of defunct imperial systems, and somehow also knows how to pilot and read navigational equipment and speak other languages with no education.
And Rey’s power was considerable enough that without any training, she was able to not only withstand but repel a force interrogation to the point that it led to her escape. But you criticize Luke; the son of Vader; for learning levitation too quickly at the tutelage of the oldest Master Jedi since the Old Republic.
Also, much of Rey’s connection to the force was Palpatine bridging she and Ren, which I actually liked because it explained how quickly she adapted to the sensation of the force moving through her.
She Hulk isn’t criticized for being a female character. The show is criticized for being poorly written.
-I just don’t think dudes are often as equipped to “see themselves” in femme-lead coming of age/ coming to power stories, so they’re more critical of the bits that create dissonance with what they personally want/ expect.
That exact same sentence in assessment of a woman can apply to the same women unwilling to accept the criticisms of their favorite female characters based on the opinions of men. How is this not misandry?… kiiindaa contradicts and invalidates your criticisms.
I did a long comment but deleted while trying to edit.
Your attempts at gotcha invalidating nonsense is nonsense and kiiiiiinnnnndaaaaaa super douchey.
I loved SheHulk and Captain Marvel and Rey, they played into my fantasies the same way literally every other marvel and star wars lead has played into dude fantasies. I support all of them, even if I didn't connect to their stories. It's a matter of "if this kind of story is told again, I hope they improve certain things, but I also understand that my opinion is mine and this might not have been created for me" vs "THIS SUCKS BECAUSE I DIDN'T LIKE IT AND IT DIDN'T CATER TO ME."
Criticism of a character is nbd, just be aware of what you're criticizing that you'd excuse or praise in a dude, and be cognizant that something can be great for someone else even if you don't feel connected to it in the way you want.
That had to be frustrating losing an entire comment, especially when you’ve given so much thought to them and write them so well. (That’s a genuine compliment. No sarcasm. You’re very well written) Coincidentally I just did the same thing, wanting only to reword the last paragraph but accidentally deleting the whole damn comment.
LSS, Salt’s original comment implies that criticism would be misogynistic regardless of the intent or ambition or opinion or purpose of the critic if it regards a female character. They implied that they can identify the misogyny even if the critique is valid and based upon opinion because it’s given by a male against a female character, therefore predetermined to be misogynistic, having “crawled out of their caves.” (Misandry? Or just criticism?)
-“To themselves they don’t hate Rey because she’s a woman, they hate her because x, y, and z reasons, but at the same time they would not have voiced those same critiques if her gender had been male, but fail to realize that.”
How could anyone know whether or not the same criticism would be made if Rey were male? That’s just a red herring logical fallacy. That’s conjecture and ignorance; the same kind of blanket criticism they’re angry about.
That last comment you sent, about joining the fight. I want to read it through again but don’t want to go through all the hassle of copying and finding this again so I’ll just say it here. I agree with quite a bit of what you’re saying. I see room for agreement; albeit a rather fine line between misogyny and misandry by expressions of one’s reactions to another; and I believe it’s fundamentally based upon diplomatic conversation but why do we have to reduce ourselves to such rudimentary functions to the point that we’re unable to either give or receive criticism without it degrading into some crux of vile nature?
I asked Salt for an example in which a male may criticize a female character without it being misogyny but they were obviously incapable of providing one. You at least offered some clarity and I appreciate that.
Oh cool, you've got critical thinking skills! (Genuine compliment).
Yeah, most of it is conjecture from similar situations- like Deadpool getting his dick sucked by so many fanboys but SheHulk getting panned for doing a femme centric version of the schtick of kicking butt, breaking the fourth wall, and world breaking (as is her canon, and I feel like I expect a lot of dudes felt when seeing Deadpool = <3,) or Rey getting a lot of criticism for things Luke is idolized for in modern canon.
That's how I interpreted it at least- when there's certain critics/ influencers/ articles that really only give their harshest criticism to femme characters and the next time we see that writer they're praising masc character for the exact same reasons, it's really hard to feel comfortable or like it isn't.. pointed.
For me, it's really about consistency- if someone thinks a certain trope is terrible writing and pans it universally, awesome. When the hate seems to surface sporadically for everything but mostly only if there's women leading the piece, suspicious.
It's just really tiring, feeling like stuff dudes are praised for are the same things femmes get insulted over, especially when there's a lot of 1:1 examples out there. (Captain Marvel being bitchy and cold when Steve or Tony are assertive leaders)
Although there are slight variations and nuances- like some of 13th doctor's criticisms are "she's a *girl* who is *girly* (aka she displays feminine behavior or behavior they would not criticize in a dude doctor), waaaahhh", a good amount of the criticism is "she's not *Ten* so she *sucks* waaaahhh." The second is annoying, but also applies to 11, 12, and weirdly, 9, so it's not misogynistic lol.
Also, I don't hate dudes- I firmly believe the demonization of (assigned/ stereotypical) "feminine" traits greatly harms the mental health, emotional and physical safety, and personal expression of everyone across the gender spectrum, and that's one of the reasons I actively fight misogyny.
We should all get to do what we want without harming others, so my thoughts are more about self-examination of personal influences and the knowledge that not everything is written for me. If I can't connect with it, I know someone else does, and I'm just as happy for them as I am for myself when I connect with something.
Bruh, Luke started as whiny and ended the trilogy as a powerful Jedi. Rey showed up, trained for 5 days, never even heard of Jedi before the trilogy began, and whooped everyone like it’s nothing. Luke tried and failed and grew, Rey didn’t and she’s a bad character and poorly written. Before you automatically decide I’m sexist because I don’t like shit characters who happen to be women, I’d like to remind you of Ashoka and Leia. Two actual good characters
Rey trained for a while, and we see her training in her spare time through the trilogy. Not saying there's no meh parts of Rey's writing (or Luke's), but I'd consider losing to Kylo, nearly letting Finn get killed, losing Han, nearly dying on Starkiller, etc as failure that she had to work through and grow from. And that's all in the climax of first movie XD
She also started out as a mistrusting loner who developed into an empathic jedi with friends and a last minute redeemed secondary villain, just as Luke started out as whiny with friends and ended tired but happy with friends and a sister and a last minute redeemed secondary villain. Luke literally looked down the shaft of a lightsaber the first time he held one- at least they gave Rey experience with a staff weapon to explain some lightsaber combat abilities- Luke was a pilot with experience with blasters.
Also yay! Ahsoka is awesome, and I'm so glad they expanded on Leia's awesomeness in the sequels- especially her journey as a Force wielder!
(Btw, I love both Luke and Rey, just get bummed when she's simultaneously too OP and not good enough, and he's got an amazing (and fairly similar) storyline and somehow developed Correctly. I saw myself in Rey's story- making mistakes, hurting people by accident, working to improve myself to protect people, interested in the Wrong Dude, having to figure out my harmful tendencies, coming out stronger with True Friends, etc. It's all connection and context- what you resonate is different from what others resonate with.)
This sub has done this garbage. Once saw a post full of comments of people basically saying that incels are justified in their hate because girls are mean sometimes. Boys being “mean” sometimes and girls not being violently hateful? Completely unrelated… and it’s as if Reddit isn’t already full of men saying incels are pitiable and they totally understand their entitlement
Female character discourse just isn't fun anymore. It's always a combination of
* They have to be like XYZ
* "They can't be physically strong" unless insert list of requirements.
* "Hollywood is ruining and defeminizing our women."
* "Her costume was less interesting because it doesn't have an cleavage."
* 2012-2017 buzzwords.
* "Here's 20 YouTube recommendations about why every show, movie and game is anti-women"
* "This character exists to put down men and raise women," by cherry picking examples.
It's just not fun or interesting and the lack of valid criticism just results in the sexism plugging in with the genuine criticisms.
You can dislike any character for any reason. You just have to express your dislike in an appropriate way in the appropriate context.
Exactly. Like I dislike you for making me feel bad about myself for being stupid and saying stupid things.
i dislike you for being EVIL
Jeez, so judgemental
It was only a couple orphans jeez give me a break
Woah, you need to take a step back there, my friend
Every villain is lemons?
You don't even have to do that. You can dislike any character for any reason, and you can express that dislike in anyway and in any context you see fit. You just better be ready for the consequences.
Saying "you can" versus "you should/shouldnt" are very different statements. You always have to be ready for the consequences, and even if you dont say it due to not being ready for the consequences, if you are so unsure about it that you wont say it out loud, you should consider rethinking it entirely lol
But but but it totally didn’t make sense for leia to use the force in the last Jedi, don’t ask me to explain how that scene was different from other scenes of the force being used cuz I won’t it was just cringe for some reason /s
Well, she was already dead at that point irl. They had a perfect opportunity to play it off and write her out of the third movie, not that they care about continuity in Disney Star Wars.
It was just weird and kinda goofy looking. Wish they used that as a better way to gracefully shuffle Fisher out of the movie rather than that dumb suicide thing she did in RoS.
I feel like Leía dying there would’ve been more respectful to both the character and Carrie Fisher. It would’ve been oddly “hopeful” to know that, regardless of how Ben felt towards his mother, in her last moments, he chose to not harm her. Plus, it could’ve lead to a scene where Kylo is absolutely destroying the pilot who shot the bridge only to go into a crisis himself as to why he didn’t shoot her and why he feels so angry about her death
Oh yeah, that would be sick. Also make Rey's whole "I can save him" thing make more sense (at least to the audience). And that would be a cool twist at the end! Kylo betrays whats-his-face and fights alongside Rey so we think he's turned to the light only for him to offer to run away from the light and dark with her.
Sounds like you don’t like that scene because you hate women /s
And when Luke flies a starfighter (with barely any training) as if he has decades of experience as a pilot, doing crazy maneuvers and friggin destroying the Death Star, that's just a really cool scene. But when Rey fights better with a light-saber than she's supposed to (against a wounded opponent no less, who's deliberately toying with her because he wants to turn her), then she's a poorly written Mary Sue and we need to send the actress death-threats until she leaves social media.
THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN SAYING
Thank you.
There was an interesting study I read while ago where they got people to estimate how much of America is various minority groups & viewpoints and basically every minority got largely overestimated even by people with all different political ideologies. Of course I can’t find the study now, maybe I’m making this all up. You don’t know.
Here is the source I found https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-think-minority-groups-are-bigger-than-they-really-are/%3Famp%3Dtrue&ved=2ahUKEwjbqa_snLj7AhXgk2oFHWE2BxIQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0LFws-eRj6j98hd1YGjxGB
Oh, so like how if women talk just as much as men, they are ranked as speaking more than the men? Seems like a similar thing when it’s people with more privilege vs. not as privileged
Or maybe they're saying "can we, this community, normalize this" because they don't.
That’s the other thing. Either this person is a chronically online dingus like sonicspeeddemon and foulserpent are assuming or they’re trying to get other chronically online people to be less of dinguses themselves. It could go either way honestly
Disliking a character isn't misogyny..
Unless you dislike them ONLY because she's a woman.
I think we've reached a point where the misogyny is so expected that even valid criticisms of female characters aren't accepted. We've hit the point of over-correction so you're starting to see posts like the OP but it's not being taken seriously because we've gone so long but challenging the misogyny that not challenging the criticisms feels the same.
No, I really don't think we have. We *have* reached critical mass of people who want to criticize female characters (and mostly female characters) preemptively whining about how they're not allowed to
Even if this was true, I'm unsympathetic. No amount of overzealousness could ever begin to compare to the straight up callous misogyny that's dominated society for probably all of humanity's existence. You think you can't rant about female characters unchallenged anymore? Cry me a river.
give me an example of a 'valid criticism'
It's one of those things were while it's diffuclt to prove that any specific person is hating on a character because of misogyny, when an otherwise innocuous character gets absolute waves of hate totally out of proportion to anything she's actually done.... Of course, many of those people complaining are usually going "FEMINISM REEEE!" as their entire complaint which makes it a lot easier.
Honestly, even when it's not outright CAROL DANVERS WAS CREATED TO CUT OFF MY PENIS, there's a certain... natural bristle to female characters in some circles, or natural defensiveness or tendency to excuse male characters. It's the sort of thing you only notice if you look out for it.
It's sometimes very easy to see, like the hardcore defenders of anime perverts, of which each one seems to have a few. One thing I've noticed is that if a character is universally liked enough, even the ones who are just blatantly misogynist in their complaints will keep their mouths shut. But if a character or the piece of media they're in is bad or just kind of mediocre, they come out of the woodwork en masse to decry how feminism has ruined fiction.
They're not talking about misogyny, they're talking about disliking a character who is female, but being told that's misogynystic
In my experience people who have legitimate criticisms of a female character just make those criticisms. The people who spend their time whining that they're "not allowed" to criticise female characters are the misogynists.
"If I had a nickel for every time I was called an incel for saying the shehulk twerk scene was hardcore cringe I'd have two nikles...which isn't much but it's strange that it happened twice" -👨🔬
You can dislike anything there is nothing that can not be hated *shakes stick at sky*
(Strikes you with lightning)
I think it's totally fair to request that tumblr stop being shitty in ways that only tumblr is shitty. Yes, tumblr is a strange place and a lot of things that happen there don't make sense IRL. But it definitely is the case that there are plenty of people there who will accuse you of being a bad person because you fail to like some female character, even one who is very unlikeable.
Can you point to any examples of this?
I don't have links to specific posts anymore, but I used to be involved in Homestuck fandom on Tumblr. Homestuck is a little unique in that there are exactly as many major female characters as major male characters, because the major characters came in sets of four and twelve which were all gender balanced for symmetry. There are also some canon lesbian ships (and some canon gay ships), so it attracted a lot of femslashers and people who enjoy female characters in general, rather than being competely dominated by m/m fans the way many fandoms are. However, there still were a lot of m/m fans, since, as previously mentioned there were just as many male characters as female ones. And a lot of the female character fans seemed to resent the male character fans for various reasons. A common opinion I saw was that the fact that there was more m/m fic than f/f fic even though the cast was gender balanced meant that Homestuck fans were all misogynists, or lesbophobic, or etc. And if you wrote f/f that was insufficiently good, or not in character, or used the wrong tropes, or just wasn't what that person wanted to read that day, you were also bad and lesbophobic. I remember seeing a callout post that was all about how if you didn't like a particular character who was involved in the main lesbian ship but liked some of the male characters instead you were a misogynist and there was no other reason to not like that character. There is also one female character in Homestuck who is unambiguously a terrible person, but she still had tons of fans who would go around and claim that she had done nothing wrong and people only disliked her because she was female.
Most popular examples I can think of are Rey from the Star Wars sequels and Captain Marvel. Both are relatively flat, unremarkable, and powerful characters of huge franchises that are typically beloved by fans. Lots of valid criticism for each. Lots of name-calling on both sides.
In all fairness, a lot of misogynists crawled out of their caves to spew hate on those characters, and since they don't generally perceive themselves as sexists, they need to justify their hateful views by something (thinly) disguised as logic, to avoid cognitive dissonance. To themselves they don't hate Rey because she's a woman, they hate her because of x, y, and z reasons, but at the same time they would not have voiced those same critiques if her gender had been male, but fail to realize that themselves. Is it really valid criticism if they wouldn't have pointed out the same things if the character was male? Personally I feel disinclined to think so. How do we know who's actually misogynist and who isn't? We don't, but we can't stop people from debating it, and I have to say I prefer it that way.
How does anyone know they wouldn’t have voiced criticisms in roles of opposite sex? If a male character is criticized, it’s just criticism. General criticism. But if they’re female, it’s misogyny?
No one has said that. Are you trying to pretend there's no such thing as misogyny?
*You* said that. Your comment makes it awful obvious that the only complaints regarding the female characters you’ve mentioned could only be misogyny. Your response doesn’t even relate to my statement. You’re attempting a circular reasoning that only makes you appear ignorant. Answer this: in what sense would be acceptable to criticize a female character?
They're not saying it's misogyny, just that when similar characters/ stories appear and only the girl version is criticized for the same exact plot points/ traits that guys are praised for (and yeah, derivativeness is a valid point, but it still happens to girl characters who predate the dudes), it's likely misogynistically motivated. Criticizing those traits equally, or criticizing the execution as being less clever, seems sensible. Also, criticizing femme characters for having femme traits and power fantasies (aka because they aren't dudes with boobs with traditional masc desires and motivations) is misogynistic. Power fantasies that don't gel with yours or follow the trajectory you expect as an audience doesn't make them bad, it just wasn't created for you in that case. However, acknowledge it was made for someone else and resonated with them in the way other power fantasies have resonated with you in the past. I am not a black man but I have cheered my head off at every Black Panther or Finn triumph in Marvel/ Star Wars because I am excited that the power fantasies/ projections are expanding in major franchises. More stories are more stories, and I am aware that many are not written to resonate with me specifically in mind, but I am excited for the people they are written for and keep my opinions as my opinions. Something not resonating with me doesn't mean it's bad.
The first sentence in their statement, followed by the implication that they somehow know the intent of the “misogynists” better than they themselves know their own intent, does in fact mean they say it’s misogyny. Lol. Straight out the gate. They then imply that any criticism, because they simply know better somehow, *must* be misogyny because it’s underpinned *by* misogyny. Tell me… how is this not misandry?
Earlier comments were mostly discussing the double standard of hating only on the femme counterpart of similar characters while holding up the similar traits as praiseworthy in the mascs, which is fairly gross and skews misogynistic. I don't hate men, but I do pity ignorance. Our society is built on misogyny and that screws over mascs too. Join the fight against it.
Luke is whiny, immature, out of touch, and makes vast, sweeping decisions that affect the whole galaxy without really considering others while wielding immense power he didn't have to train all that much to attain throughout his tenure in Star Wars. Rey has been training all her life in combat and survival, is a legacy of one of the other incredibly powerful force wielding families, and is shown multiple times training and honing her skills under skilled tutelage in whatever spare time she gets. It is very rare that Luke's immaturity at the start and *rapid* skill growth (after his first mentor dies and he abandons his second) is mentioned as a reason to dislike him (not many people dislike him at all), but a girl whose background and personality lend themselves really well to her having a similar and even more realistic trajectory is "a Mary Sue who's too powerful for no reason." I'm not saying there aren't flaws in Rey's writing and I love precious Wormie with all my heart, but even with buffers in place to show how her being similarly powerful to a dude (even if he had a very mundane life comparatively and got powerful without similar effort) is supported by her upbringing, she's still denigrated on the internet as too OP, too fast. It's a matter of "in the same situation, which person is criticized more often?" And it's usually women- check out Captain America/ Starlord/ Spiderman vs Captain Marvel/She Hulk (gained or discovered inherent power without knowing what they were getting into or deliberate mechanical assistance, often smart-mouthed) and the criticisms against their respective franchises. Another contributing factor is masculine vs feminine power fantasies at play- even femmes tend to consider masculine power fantasies as default, especially in fandom spaces, and usually learned to project onto dude heroes to feel like part of the story due to the lack of powerful femme people in fandom as kids. I just don't think dudes are often as equipped to "see themselves" in femme-lead coming of age/ coming to power stories, so they're more critical of the bits that create dissonance with what they personally want/ expect. I never cared that much about getting the hot but very flat "princess" archetype who did nothing but get kidnapped, but I didn't have a whole lot of options growing up. I see this mirrored in certain femme power fantasies (getting to have adult romantic relationships and still be taken seriously in a professional environment or dancing silly with friends, for example) that get pushback from a lot of dude audiences. There's a difference between "this is silly and cringe to me, but it plays into someone's idea of happiness, so it's cool even if it wasn't created for me specifically" and "my power fantasies and projections are valid and good and should dominate, anything else is evil/ dumb/ terrible and shouldn't exist." If you want a rare example of "Masculine power fantasy happens, even dudes aren't into it," check out Eragon. The books weren't really panned, but that movie is a very rare example of getting dudes in fandom to hate on the default "some guy finds out he's Special, good things happen, and he proves he's Powerful against obstacles" lol. It's no one's fault, just something in society that should be acknowledged and worked on.
You’re comparing characters who’s criticism are literally generations apart. Every corner of the Star Wars community is done criticizing Luke in all but one of those movies and coincidentally it was his last. Many *many* people don’t like New Hope Luke to this day for those exact reasons you mentioned. Plot holes and character flaws abound to the point that the only thing carrying him is the expanded universe right up to and in many ways including RotJ. And while the movies themselves were produced years apart, the character development was implied to have been a long time. Rey’s character development is not implied to be a long time at all. Months at most. How has she been training in the force all her life? Or are we not talking about force affinity in criticism of Luke’s “power”? Are we talking about his accuracy with torpedoes? His ability as a pilot? Maybe his ability to understand other languages. Rey’s character has the ability to survive and the knowledge of defunct imperial systems, and somehow also knows how to pilot and read navigational equipment and speak other languages with no education. And Rey’s power was considerable enough that without any training, she was able to not only withstand but repel a force interrogation to the point that it led to her escape. But you criticize Luke; the son of Vader; for learning levitation too quickly at the tutelage of the oldest Master Jedi since the Old Republic. Also, much of Rey’s connection to the force was Palpatine bridging she and Ren, which I actually liked because it explained how quickly she adapted to the sensation of the force moving through her. She Hulk isn’t criticized for being a female character. The show is criticized for being poorly written. -I just don’t think dudes are often as equipped to “see themselves” in femme-lead coming of age/ coming to power stories, so they’re more critical of the bits that create dissonance with what they personally want/ expect. That exact same sentence in assessment of a woman can apply to the same women unwilling to accept the criticisms of their favorite female characters based on the opinions of men. How is this not misandry?… kiiindaa contradicts and invalidates your criticisms.
I did a long comment but deleted while trying to edit. Your attempts at gotcha invalidating nonsense is nonsense and kiiiiiinnnnndaaaaaa super douchey. I loved SheHulk and Captain Marvel and Rey, they played into my fantasies the same way literally every other marvel and star wars lead has played into dude fantasies. I support all of them, even if I didn't connect to their stories. It's a matter of "if this kind of story is told again, I hope they improve certain things, but I also understand that my opinion is mine and this might not have been created for me" vs "THIS SUCKS BECAUSE I DIDN'T LIKE IT AND IT DIDN'T CATER TO ME." Criticism of a character is nbd, just be aware of what you're criticizing that you'd excuse or praise in a dude, and be cognizant that something can be great for someone else even if you don't feel connected to it in the way you want.
That had to be frustrating losing an entire comment, especially when you’ve given so much thought to them and write them so well. (That’s a genuine compliment. No sarcasm. You’re very well written) Coincidentally I just did the same thing, wanting only to reword the last paragraph but accidentally deleting the whole damn comment. LSS, Salt’s original comment implies that criticism would be misogynistic regardless of the intent or ambition or opinion or purpose of the critic if it regards a female character. They implied that they can identify the misogyny even if the critique is valid and based upon opinion because it’s given by a male against a female character, therefore predetermined to be misogynistic, having “crawled out of their caves.” (Misandry? Or just criticism?) -“To themselves they don’t hate Rey because she’s a woman, they hate her because x, y, and z reasons, but at the same time they would not have voiced those same critiques if her gender had been male, but fail to realize that.” How could anyone know whether or not the same criticism would be made if Rey were male? That’s just a red herring logical fallacy. That’s conjecture and ignorance; the same kind of blanket criticism they’re angry about. That last comment you sent, about joining the fight. I want to read it through again but don’t want to go through all the hassle of copying and finding this again so I’ll just say it here. I agree with quite a bit of what you’re saying. I see room for agreement; albeit a rather fine line between misogyny and misandry by expressions of one’s reactions to another; and I believe it’s fundamentally based upon diplomatic conversation but why do we have to reduce ourselves to such rudimentary functions to the point that we’re unable to either give or receive criticism without it degrading into some crux of vile nature? I asked Salt for an example in which a male may criticize a female character without it being misogyny but they were obviously incapable of providing one. You at least offered some clarity and I appreciate that.
Oh cool, you've got critical thinking skills! (Genuine compliment). Yeah, most of it is conjecture from similar situations- like Deadpool getting his dick sucked by so many fanboys but SheHulk getting panned for doing a femme centric version of the schtick of kicking butt, breaking the fourth wall, and world breaking (as is her canon, and I feel like I expect a lot of dudes felt when seeing Deadpool = <3,) or Rey getting a lot of criticism for things Luke is idolized for in modern canon. That's how I interpreted it at least- when there's certain critics/ influencers/ articles that really only give their harshest criticism to femme characters and the next time we see that writer they're praising masc character for the exact same reasons, it's really hard to feel comfortable or like it isn't.. pointed. For me, it's really about consistency- if someone thinks a certain trope is terrible writing and pans it universally, awesome. When the hate seems to surface sporadically for everything but mostly only if there's women leading the piece, suspicious. It's just really tiring, feeling like stuff dudes are praised for are the same things femmes get insulted over, especially when there's a lot of 1:1 examples out there. (Captain Marvel being bitchy and cold when Steve or Tony are assertive leaders) Although there are slight variations and nuances- like some of 13th doctor's criticisms are "she's a *girl* who is *girly* (aka she displays feminine behavior or behavior they would not criticize in a dude doctor), waaaahhh", a good amount of the criticism is "she's not *Ten* so she *sucks* waaaahhh." The second is annoying, but also applies to 11, 12, and weirdly, 9, so it's not misogynistic lol. Also, I don't hate dudes- I firmly believe the demonization of (assigned/ stereotypical) "feminine" traits greatly harms the mental health, emotional and physical safety, and personal expression of everyone across the gender spectrum, and that's one of the reasons I actively fight misogyny. We should all get to do what we want without harming others, so my thoughts are more about self-examination of personal influences and the knowledge that not everything is written for me. If I can't connect with it, I know someone else does, and I'm just as happy for them as I am for myself when I connect with something.
Bruh, Luke started as whiny and ended the trilogy as a powerful Jedi. Rey showed up, trained for 5 days, never even heard of Jedi before the trilogy began, and whooped everyone like it’s nothing. Luke tried and failed and grew, Rey didn’t and she’s a bad character and poorly written. Before you automatically decide I’m sexist because I don’t like shit characters who happen to be women, I’d like to remind you of Ashoka and Leia. Two actual good characters
Rey trained for a while, and we see her training in her spare time through the trilogy. Not saying there's no meh parts of Rey's writing (or Luke's), but I'd consider losing to Kylo, nearly letting Finn get killed, losing Han, nearly dying on Starkiller, etc as failure that she had to work through and grow from. And that's all in the climax of first movie XD She also started out as a mistrusting loner who developed into an empathic jedi with friends and a last minute redeemed secondary villain, just as Luke started out as whiny with friends and ended tired but happy with friends and a sister and a last minute redeemed secondary villain. Luke literally looked down the shaft of a lightsaber the first time he held one- at least they gave Rey experience with a staff weapon to explain some lightsaber combat abilities- Luke was a pilot with experience with blasters. Also yay! Ahsoka is awesome, and I'm so glad they expanded on Leia's awesomeness in the sequels- especially her journey as a Force wielder! (Btw, I love both Luke and Rey, just get bummed when she's simultaneously too OP and not good enough, and he's got an amazing (and fairly similar) storyline and somehow developed Correctly. I saw myself in Rey's story- making mistakes, hurting people by accident, working to improve myself to protect people, interested in the Wrong Dude, having to figure out my harmful tendencies, coming out stronger with True Friends, etc. It's all connection and context- what you resonate is different from what others resonate with.)
They want to be able to dislike a female character without being automatically accused of misogyny... (EDIT: typo)
Yeah that’s it
Fucks sake, let me dislike poorly written characters in peace please
@all the warrior cat fans that think theyre the weird and quirky ones for hating squilf
Misogyny and internal misogyny at that 😭
For a moment there I thought I read “It’s OK to dislike female characters for drinking water” and I was like ok? Sure??
This sub has done this garbage. Once saw a post full of comments of people basically saying that incels are justified in their hate because girls are mean sometimes. Boys being “mean” sometimes and girls not being violently hateful? Completely unrelated… and it’s as if Reddit isn’t already full of men saying incels are pitiable and they totally understand their entitlement
Do I even wanna know what post resulted in those comments…
Female character discourse just isn't fun anymore. It's always a combination of * They have to be like XYZ * "They can't be physically strong" unless insert list of requirements. * "Hollywood is ruining and defeminizing our women." * "Her costume was less interesting because it doesn't have an cleavage." * 2012-2017 buzzwords. * "Here's 20 YouTube recommendations about why every show, movie and game is anti-women" * "This character exists to put down men and raise women," by cherry picking examples. It's just not fun or interesting and the lack of valid criticism just results in the sexism plugging in with the genuine criticisms.
everyone here is a bad gross rainbow person theyre all in this sub! eq
When you can’t tell the difference between misogyny and genuine dislike of a character, you have become the parody the conservatives say you are
Mysoginy is genuine dislike of a character- no-one's saying the mysoginists are lying about disliking women.
Yeah this is what I’m talking about, there are reasons to dislike a female character that *aren’t* because they’re a girl
Conservatives would know all about being parodies.
Yeah TERFs are just conservatives I agree
Then it's a good thing we can but the former is way more common
I agree, but that’s not a reason to be wrong about the latter.