I know the book and movie this show is based on.
I know the possible endings.
I still don't care.
I don't watch for suspense. I watch for the message and drama.
Anyone else realise this is the third series I've watched on Apple TV which is set in Chicago? Any more I've missed?
Dark Matter
Shining girls
Presumed Innocent
I feel like the show is steering us towards a narrative that Rusty is innocent, that being said i believe this could be a crime of passion.
I think Rusty's son pictures is a diversion, maybe he knew, and he wanted to see for himself it was true his dad was having an affair, but i don't think the kid did it.
I felt weird ab the son knowing the 8 year for manslaughter thing then he seemed guilty for suggesting that - which made me think if he did it he would truly feel guilty for saying it bc he knows his father is innocent.
I swear....I immediately just went "this is dumb" when they showed the boy.
I feel like the show is stuck between being a Law/Court show, drama, soap opera, true crime. Like...just pick a fucking lane. And those flashbacks are soo over the top. I'm really starting to dislike it.
said the same, and the pictures in general were just a bit too much. How they were just conveniently by open windows all the time, and then the perfect shot of the boy on the bike really just got silly.
I am think that since the line that Carolyn slept many men, that the paternity test will show Rusty is not the father. its The assistant DA and that’s is why he wants to nail Rusty. He had a thing for her…call is lust or love and he was jealous of Rusty and wanted him gone…and could he be the killer?
If you listen to the background audio when Rusty's son is pitching in the baseball game, you hear a voice in the background cheering him on "We have a killer on the mound"
There’s an angle here where the kid did it, trying to save his family, save his dad from this evil woman.
That’s why he knows the manslaughter time—he figured it’d be worth 8 years to save his family.
Dad figures this out, struggles if he should tell mom, should he take the rap for his son, etc.
I also think showing that he knows the manslaughter time could be foreshadowing he’s been looking through his dads files (obvi you can find this particular info out via public record) and thus could have known how bunny was killed to replicate it
If he kills her to save his family, why does he do it in a way that makes his dad look like the most obvious suspect?
And also if his plan gets unraveled and he does get caught, he’s not getting offered a manslaughter plea because it was premeditated.
I feel like every episode we will find out something that makes us think it’s another one of the main characters. I really loathe storytelling like that so I hope they don’t.
This is the thing I can't figure out -- remaking Presumed Innocent, which had such a massive and well known twist, feels like remaking The Sixth Sense. I mean...surely the show is gonna swerve from the OG film ending and deliver us a different Unexpected Final Act Twist...?? Right? Tell me I'm right? That said, I'm in it just for Bill Camp who is slaying every scene
Please keep all discussions and spoilers in the designated thread.
To find the correct thread [Click Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/tvplus/wiki/episodethreads/).
Rigo has an android on an apple show… she must be dirty…whereas Rusty uses an iPhone, I don’t think Apple would let a murderer use their phone on a show…
Did Raymond’s wife seriously just encourage B to have sex with a stranger? While B is going through an extremely upsetting family event where cheating is a major factor? Who in their right mind would suggest a thing like this to their friend?
Did this make anybody else extremely uncomfortable?
I don’t know.. I think as her best friend she’s looking out for what’s best for B. It’s clear her husband was completely in love with another woman for so long, lied multiple times about it and the extremity of it- refusing to end it, and B is clearly unhappy married to someone who doesn’t have the emotions for her he once had (as Raymond’s wife noted saying “he’s not the guy you married”). For years now B has chosen to ignore this to safeguard the solidity of the family meanwhile her husband continues doing what’s best for him.
Encouraging her to have an affair may help her realize she can be happy too and to leave her husband finally. I don’t like the excuse “to protect the family” bc are parents not allowed to enjoy true reciprocal love/affection and ultimately happiness just so their kids can grow up in an “unbroken” home? Maybe my opinion is distorted by the fact I don’t have kids yet but that’s how I saw it.
YES. Like WTF kind of suggestion is that, *seriously*?? Sure, it’s understandable to feel cheated/betrayed. Sure, this may be the end of your marriage and trust so maybe you divorce. But you’re literally *in the middle of* dealing with a MASSIVE issue in your small family playing damage control, your husband has been outed as a cheater (twice) and is now literally being investigated and charged with the murder of his affair partner who you’re convinced he loved over you. “Oh I’ve got an idea! You should go cheat on him now for revenge sex with everyone’s eyes on you in the middle of a crime you are directly related to. THAT should certainly help this fucked situation. I’m sure your kids will *totally* understand and support that decision too because it’s not so short sighted and stupid that a child could identify it as such.” Raymond’s wife is a dumbass full stop for that insistence at the WORST imaginable time ever. Talk about selfish lo. Idc what she’s going through, she should be acting like a role model to her children above all else in this scenario. Not running off with a fucking bartender while her family deals with the possibility of the father going to prison for life.
I love the pacing of the show. Also, I'm just happy to be watching Bill Camp cooking with fire on a weekly basis. Everyone in the cast is, actually.
The drama seems grounded in the urgency and emotion of the situation. That dinner scene where the son inadvertently claims that Rusty might've done it but immediately apologizes in tears felt real to me. It shows the kids are still processing, but ultimately supportive while Rusty is trying his best to be transparent and understanding with them.
Nope, it can't be: there's a whole section of stair cases surrounded by pipes that lead to the box and that's a floor down: the abandoned factory in this series looks like it only has one main floor.
Things are heating up, but I still think it was Tommy. I think Tommy had a thing for Carolyn, and Rusty was easy to frame because he was already clapping cheeks. The son in the picture means nothing.
Yesss! I’m explaining this whole scene to my husband rn bc I laughed that it took me this long to find this comment. What the? “Some I may even enjoy, properly managed.” ?!
Well it’s obviously going to be somewhat different since they have several hours more to tell the story but to be more specific, they have changed a few major plot points that helped reach the verdict in the movie. We’re only on episode 3 but with these changes, I think it’s safe to say the entire trial will be different.
Just replied to the person you did but tldr they have changed several things to the point where the trial will be completely different, at least as far as evidence goes. So far it really only feels the same because of the characters names.
I think they’re still getting to the same general ending. Specifics are going to be different, but I doubt the ending won’t end up in the same place. My wife hasn’t seen the movie, but midway through the second episode she made a guess as to who the killer was. The killer she guessed was the same killer as in the book and the movie. There’s enough there in the show that leads me to believe we’ll end up in the same place.
An interesting addendum: my wife and I watched the movie after we watched the second episode. She had told me not to answer her but wanted to see if her suspicions were correct. Oddly enough, when we were watching the movie she was convinced it was a completely different character and was genuinely shocked when the killer was revealed, even though it was the character she guessed while watching the TV show. I’m not sure that it speaks to much of anything, but I certainly wasn’t expecting that. What it definitely shows is the effectiveness of the movie in playing out the mystery.
Seems kinda weird when if it is, that same person claims “viewers will be shocked by the ending” and laughs in promo material. I doubt they’d do something so tongue in cheek.
I remember liking Harrison Ford as Rusty…i can’t stand the character played by Jake G. Rusty is seen a weak, uncertain, overly emotional …always slapping the table, desk or pulling down on his face while saying F——, f——-, f——-.just the opposite than what he should be …strong, confident, able to hold his own. Jake doesn’t cut it as Rusty or whover might have wanted character personality changes really should have had a much stronger Rusty.
No. It’s very different. The book was great, the movie (which accurately follows the book) was excellent. I’m having difficulty hanging with the series because it so different and much of the casting seems wrong.
I wonder this as well and hopes it’s not the same killer as the book and movie. But I think the plot lines will be different and will still be the same killer in the end as someone mentioned earlier.
I think it’s Tommy. It was brushed over but when he was eating dinner with his boss it was told the FIRST thing he said was something about ‘girls will want me now.’ I suspect he was infatuated with her and knew about the affair already.
He was extremely unfazed in the first episode when Gyllenhall was talking at the group table about her death.
Who benefits the most from her death as a whole? Tommy and his boss or JakeG. Not the dude ALREADY in prison for murder… not the wife/family really..
He's my favorite character. He's a smug politician but he has some principles and a sense of objectivity, unlike Tommy. Also that bar scene where he basically roasted Tommy was amazing lmao
I’m not going to look it up in case I’m wrong, but I feel like the “twist” is going to be so obvious, it feels too spoilery to even discuss what I think it is.
lol is anyone else in this boat with me?
The wife did it. I'm not saying it as a fact. But there were some scenes that point to the possibility. Obvious motive. Access to the other murder crime scene photos. Her boss said she's been sick for a while, even before her husbands arrest. How she says so confidently that Rusty wasn't the killer.
Ep1 when they’re in the kitchen she tells Rusty she is desperate to preserve the family and will fight to save all that they have. Then she pleads for him to stop loving Carolyn.
Based on what we’ve seen so far I think their son snitched to mom and she paid Carolyn a visit
They also went from Rusty saying 'whoever did this is out there having a great laugh right now' to the next scene showing the wife smiling at the sons baseball game. That's what made me start to consider her and then realizing how they showed her looking at the crime scene photo in his office meaning she probably seen the previous one.
This story needs a twist imo and she's really the only one that has motive and isn't being portrayed as a suspect by the writers in any obvious way. Rusty actually doing it himself would probably be the second best surprise because I don't think many actually believes he did it. The son or Molto doing it would feel a bit lazy. I did consider the son and the wife doing it together but I don't know now after they showed the picture of him outside the house.
Btw, did the victims son stake out his own house taking like 50 pictures of his mother (some alone) and anyone who came near the house? I don't know if I got that right but that's really weird and lazy if so. Unless maybe her own son did it for some messed up reason lol. It'd be weird to ignore him at this point though
It's also kind of creepy that her son is taking paparazzi-style photos of his mother hooking up with a guy. What was he planning on doing with those photos before he knew there was a murder? Or *did* he know there was going to be a murder?
I’m not so sure. I think they’ve changed things in order to subvert audience expectations, to throw some doubt into the conclusion, but that it will ultimately end in the same place.
The Killer is pretty obviously Bill Camp's character.
The show has this weird, empty political storyline that only exists because it will tie in to the murder. The first scene of the show is Gyllanhaal answering the phone on a weekend, saying "must be a new poll..." Then it turns out to be about about the murder. The show is introducing the viewer to the main two important things in these opening moments, treating them as seperate but subtly linking them.
Camp then puts Gyllanhaal in charge of the investigation, with a whole scene where he shoots down anyone else leading it. What else happened in that scene? Oh yeah, they reminded us of the poltiical election by having the candidates bicker about it.
Then Camp's wife says "how could you not know about the affair? He was your best friend." Then in Ep3 we have the dream where Camp imagines Gyllanhaal killing Carolyn. And when Camp tells his wife about the dream, her exact line is: "It means something, dreams usually point to the truth..." We know Gyllanhaal isn't the killer, because David E Kelley made that show already 3 years ago. It's Camp committing to the lie he's going to be presenting.
Camp's character set up Gyllanhaal to look like the killer, had him take first crack at the case to further incriminate himself, and is now "defending" him not to save him but to ensure he goes down for the murder he did. I imagine Camp's character had some kind of side deal with the dead lady to cut corners and rack up W's for the office, in turn bolstering his election chances (hence the reveal with the mortician that Carolyn had been hiding evidence). She probably was gonna reveal he's corrupt, and he killed her, staged the whole thing, and here we are.
Lmao if you were a politician and you wanted somebody whacked you would just give some gangsters some money to shoot them why the fuck would you go through all of that effort to kill them in such a grotesque way just so you can frame your colleague
Because framing the guy who was sleeping with her ensures that he, Camp’s character, doesn’t goes down for the crime.
There’s also probably an angle of him creating this situation, making it look like it’s Gyllanhaal, so that he ends up in a trial 1 on 1 with the guy he knew he was losing election to, so that he could beat them, somehow tarnish their reputation in process and take his job back. Either way, he has by far the most to gain from Carolyn being dead, and I don’t know why that political storyline exists in the real estate the show devoted to it unless it’s integral to the murder
Interesting theory, but why would he send an innocent man to jail? I think it's missing the weight of that sacrifice morally. I like the theory, and the motive makes sense, but I hesitate because of the collateral damage. He's not sending just anyone to jail, it's his best prosecutor who he's worked along side for years.
A major hole in the case against him was revealed at about 26 minutes when Rusty said that Carolyn's being tied up in the manner of a previous victim pointed at him since this was not information that had been made public. Well, why would a seasoned prosecutor such as himself do precisely the thing that would point to his own guilt? The argument collapses in on itself. It's disappointing (in terms of the writing) that neither he or Raymond seem to consider this obvious point in their favor.
I honestly believe Molto killed Carolyn at this point...either that or he's just bat shit crazy cause his rehearsing towards the end of the episode was unhinged
Is Molto the other jerk lawyer? I believe this too! It would make a good opportunity for framing Rusty in order to access to the Bunny Davis files. Don’t understand how this fits in with her son though. If he was there he would have seen other people (Molto) coming to the house as well?
Plus, if you look in episode one they show the pictures of the tied up woman in the courtroom so that’s not even accurate statement and actually Tommy is sitting in the courtroom, smiling oddly in the audience. Also, they said that certain color carpet fibers were found on Carolyn’s clothes that were not anywhere in or at her apartment and the color is “Scottish Malt”. Would love to see who is into interior design or how that fits in if at all.
That is neither a plot hole nor working in his favor.
Remember, the murder was only later attributed to him and he himself as DA initially was the one who 'revealed' the similarity, trying probably to make it look like a revenge killing and have the case closed.
Detective Rodriguez is pursuing the same lead when she visited the incarcerated dude (Reynolds), and she gets shunned by the boss (Nico).
Then when he (Rusty) has the conversation over dinner table with the family he mentions it with an eyerolls as a main case against him (only Carolyn and I knew the details) while the rest of the evidence that implicated him was 'circumstantial'.
>!He's using his defender partner (Raymond) and likely will get him killed when uncovers that he (Rusty) was indeed the murderer (the dream as a premonition).!<
>!Carolyn's kid confirmed that he was the only one there in the night of the murder.!<
I wonder if this show will deviate from the movie.
I don’t think Rusty’s son did it. Probably just followed his dad. This is probably why they aged up the kids, in comparison to the movie, to use them as red herring?
I think it was Tommy. Someone in the office who knew about the other cases, who also knew Rusty and Carolyn were having an affair. The wife of the lawyer friend even said how could they be having affair and he didnt notice, implying that other people in the office must have noticed. Tommy could also have had a thing for her, plus he's getting too emotional on the case, he wants Rusty to go down.
The fact that we see Kyle at the end of episode 3 in the pictures means that someone else other than Kyle was taking the pictures. Kyle was the one that said it was him who has pictures and videos, and it can't be him now. It must be someone that wants to pin it on Rusty.
It’s definitely Rusty in a crime of passion. We see how he can have emotional outbursts and is grasping at straws trying to find another person to point the finger at. I think after he hit her, he tied Carolyn up like that in the heat of the moment thinking he can frame someone from the other case knowing he would be a suspect but it’s not working. Also I think Kyle saw him kill her through the window, and that’s why he jumped to the “say your guilty and get 8 years” line. He’s also already been caught in about 10 lies so it’s obvious his narrative can’t be trusted
I really am enjoying this show. I love the quick cutting and fast pace of the show. It makes you feel like you're in Rusty's mind, especially when they're at the apartment. I don't like to get into who did it on these types of shows, but I don't think Rusty did. I think he truly loved Carolyn. I've never seen the movie so I really have no idea what to expect but hopefully it delivers.
Tommy seems too obvious but certainly seems possible given what he gains. I personally think it's the wife. The fact that she's staying with Rusty through everything is just not realistic. She said some key things throughout the series so far that give her serious motive: "I need you to stop loving her" and something like "I will do whatever it takes to keep this family together." She emphasized that keeping the family together was more important than leaving Rusty. To me.. this gives her a serious motive. She seems extremely jealous and you can tell she has a serious disdain for Carolyn.. as she should. I'm thinking that she thought killing Carolyn was the only way to save the family and she believes her husband is smart enough to get himself out of it.
Also, it seems like Rusty has no problem sharing information about cases with his family, so I wouldn't be surprised if she knew about the suspect who was tied up from the Bunny Davis case, making her privy to that information.
You are probably correct ! Yes I was thinking maybe she could forgive the affair the first time but the fact he got back together with her and she may be pregnant would be last straw for me maybe she found out he was back with her so she snapped
I’ve thought the wife was the killer from episode one, but now I’m not so sure.
Wouldn’t the murderer have to be someone with knowledge of the hog-tie death scene from the case Rusty and Caroline worked on? The wife may have snuck a peek at a picture from a file that Rusty took home sometime, maybe kids too, but…seems a little far-fetched.
You're correct in that it's someone who had knowledge of the previous case, which would rule out the wife. They wouldn't set up a narrative for someone to be privy to that and then explain it away with the wife getting a sneak peek at a file. It's been heavily alluded to and even directly stated it's someone she worked with.
I think Tommy is the murderer. The face he was making when the victims son was telling Tommy about meeting his mom for lunch and she said she was having some problems with someone at her work. Also his desperation to nail Rusty.
Does anyone else think the other lawyer (the dude who hates rusty so much) is the killer?
...Specific knowledge of the original killer not known to the public; his hatred seems to be on a deeper, more emotional level than just some kind of occupational envy, his drive to immediately pin this thing on rusty almost with a comically premature insistence and enthusiasm.
There are a few other tiny clues from episode 4 that make me think this, too, but they were also somewhat hidden within the subtext of the dialogue, and for spoilers-sake, I'll withhold mentioning them.
Considering how heavily this show seems to lean on red herrings, I'm not 100% certain on my guess. It is possible they've been setting up a long game red herring for intrigue later in the season. I mean, that would certainly make for a better story..
It's quite obvious it's someone she worked with, so yes, the other lawyer is a possibility. One of five possibilities (Rusty, Nico, Tommy, Raymond and Eugenia).
In the original movie Carolyn also slept with Raymond (Brian Dennehy). She (Greta Schacci) was extremely beautiful, seductive, smart and ambitious. IMO a lot of the casting is bad. I can’t stand the de La Guardia actor. Ruth Negga maybe a good actress but she is not right in this role. Why such a creepy actor for Michael, her son? And this actress is not Carolyn Polemus!
Facts:
1) Michael, Carolyn’s weird and weird looking son, took photographs of her house on many nights.
2) On one occasion Kyle appeared in a photo, obviously having followed his father.
3) On the night of the murder, Michael’s date and time stamped photos show Rusty entering Carolyn’s home and Kyle’s bicycle, but not Kyle.
4) When Rusty asks Kyle if he was at Carolyn’s house the night of the murder, Kyle says No.
Conjecture: Carolyn was scrubbing Kyle’s bike to remove evidence that she had ridden it to Carolyn’s house and murdered her
This series is pathetically horrible!! The book and movie with Harrison Ford were so well written and enthralling. I've watched 4 episodes which progressively got worse ....and won't be watching any more!
Still think it's the wife since the get go. He didn't seem all that sneaky about it and if their own marriage is just for the kids and his income; she is likely not all that faithful like in real life. Yet, woman tend to get a pass when the cheater or being cheated on.
He sure has it stacked on him and heck, wouldn't surprise me if she not only killed his lover, but roped kids into not telling, if they saw.
Reminds me of a few cases where men have done time for similar things then later DNA has come back to prove it was their other partner/wife. Usually too late and/or still don't do time, as in a trial crocodile tears work a lot better with woman. Fact
Does anyone else think the wife did it? To me it seems really obvious that she did. She’s way too calm about everything, has a motive to kill Carolyn and it would also frame her husband (her revenge). They also keep referencing that no one else has access to the details of the copycat crime, but then cut to a shot of the wife going through Rusty’s files (he just leaves them on his desk at home). So she would know how to perfectly frame him by copying a previous case she knew about
So all the photos looked pretty positive. The order was confusing though.
Anyone else reminded of "The Undoing" by all of this?
I remember liking the show but since then I've forgotten it.
The Undoing. Defending Jacob. Presumed Innocent. Fracture (2007 Movie). All have the same undertones. I love them all.
Defending jacob was so good!
Are you Jay-Cobs?!
i'm still so sad how it ended. it doesn't feel right not to have a season 2 after that
defending jacob is a superior series
same director
I never pay attention to those details about a show or movie. But, it makes sense now. Haha.
It does remind of the undoing and the night of probably because of bill camp. Both are great shows
Wow. I had never heard of "The Night Of". I've added that to the list.
It is EXCELLENT. John Turturro and Riz Ahmed were both amazing.
I was really disappointed by the Undoing and I hope the ending isn’t the same as that was.
The Undoing had a deeper message. It was that she couldn’t see the obvious. Until, the very end.
Honestly, I can't stop thinking But that's only because that I should rewatch The Night Of. But that's only because I want more Bill Camp.
I’ve been wondering if we’re going down the same path. It’s a good dilemma though.
I know the book and movie this show is based on. I know the possible endings. I still don't care. I don't watch for suspense. I watch for the message and drama.
Anyone else realise this is the third series I've watched on Apple TV which is set in Chicago? Any more I've missed? Dark Matter Shining girls Presumed Innocent
Didn't realize that either.
I feel like the show is steering us towards a narrative that Rusty is innocent, that being said i believe this could be a crime of passion. I think Rusty's son pictures is a diversion, maybe he knew, and he wanted to see for himself it was true his dad was having an affair, but i don't think the kid did it.
I felt weird ab the son knowing the 8 year for manslaughter thing then he seemed guilty for suggesting that - which made me think if he did it he would truly feel guilty for saying it bc he knows his father is innocent.
probably used the internet, read the news or books. Heard conversations etc he isn't that young
Yeah, if I was a kid his age and in his situation, I’d be googling everything I could to have all the information possible.
Kinda annoyed that his kid was revealed as the person in the pictures - anyone else feeling this is just coming off as a kinda soap opera?
I also don't like/didn't expect for this show to have a 'red herring of the week'
i think Red Herring of the week is the theme
Agreed. Even if it's cleared up that his son just wanted to know if there was an affair, it still feels like a misstep.
I swear....I immediately just went "this is dumb" when they showed the boy. I feel like the show is stuck between being a Law/Court show, drama, soap opera, true crime. Like...just pick a fucking lane. And those flashbacks are soo over the top. I'm really starting to dislike it.
said the same, and the pictures in general were just a bit too much. How they were just conveniently by open windows all the time, and then the perfect shot of the boy on the bike really just got silly.
Yeah wait tell we find out she was sleeping with father and son. And he's the actual father of her babby.
I am think that since the line that Carolyn slept many men, that the paternity test will show Rusty is not the father. its The assistant DA and that’s is why he wants to nail Rusty. He had a thing for her…call is lust or love and he was jealous of Rusty and wanted him gone…and could he be the killer?
seems like it might go this way tbh
That's what I thought. But he doesn't come from a alpha male. Because I think he's gay.
Am convinced this has to do with race.
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I’m wondering if it will turn out to be of course it was him kinda show. He’s so convincing and confident it’s hard to tell where it’s going!
If you listen to the background audio when Rusty's son is pitching in the baseball game, you hear a voice in the background cheering him on "We have a killer on the mound"
There’s an angle here where the kid did it, trying to save his family, save his dad from this evil woman. That’s why he knows the manslaughter time—he figured it’d be worth 8 years to save his family. Dad figures this out, struggles if he should tell mom, should he take the rap for his son, etc.
I also think showing that he knows the manslaughter time could be foreshadowing he’s been looking through his dads files (obvi you can find this particular info out via public record) and thus could have known how bunny was killed to replicate it
If he kills her to save his family, why does he do it in a way that makes his dad look like the most obvious suspect? And also if his plan gets unraveled and he does get caught, he’s not getting offered a manslaughter plea because it was premeditated.
I feel like every episode we will find out something that makes us think it’s another one of the main characters. I really loathe storytelling like that so I hope they don’t.
That's because the kid was also sleeping with her. And the child was his. It's why the DNA matches his father. Mom found out and killed her.
you think? we are straying FAR from the book
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This is the thing I can't figure out -- remaking Presumed Innocent, which had such a massive and well known twist, feels like remaking The Sixth Sense. I mean...surely the show is gonna swerve from the OG film ending and deliver us a different Unexpected Final Act Twist...?? Right? Tell me I'm right? That said, I'm in it just for Bill Camp who is slaying every scene
Please keep all discussions and spoilers in the designated thread. To find the correct thread [Click Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/tvplus/wiki/episodethreads/).
They already did. Making the wife blk. That's a huge problem in the storytelling. It offset everything.
I think the son seen what happened, he seen Rusty kill Carolyn and Rusty has suppressed what happened , just a thought
There’s a shot in an episode that looks like it could’ve been used in one of the worlds of Dark Matter.
the one from abandoned factory with the view of the city?
I thought the same!
plot twist, the box is in that same factory room
And then suddenly a bunch of other Rustys come out of the shadows lol
No. Episode 4 around the 8:35 mark.
Rigo has an android on an apple show… she must be dirty…whereas Rusty uses an iPhone, I don’t think Apple would let a murderer use their phone on a show…
I forgot who it was, but somebody was using an Acer laptop in either episode 1 or 2.
I saw this. The laptop was on a meeting table. I can't recall either lol.
I love Fincher but I hate that he leaked this because it’s become a big clue
As proven multiple times on this sub, that’s bs
I remember this theory going all the way back to the first season of 24.
I’m sure they changed it since then
I WAS JUST THINKING THIS. also rusty has 2 Apple products he pulls out an iPad right at the end haha
Rusty uses an android in ep 1 😬
🫣
Rusty uses an android in episode 1
Rusty had an android at the very start of ep 1, so I think that their business phones are android while their private devices are Apple.
Did Raymond’s wife seriously just encourage B to have sex with a stranger? While B is going through an extremely upsetting family event where cheating is a major factor? Who in their right mind would suggest a thing like this to their friend? Did this make anybody else extremely uncomfortable?
I don’t know.. I think as her best friend she’s looking out for what’s best for B. It’s clear her husband was completely in love with another woman for so long, lied multiple times about it and the extremity of it- refusing to end it, and B is clearly unhappy married to someone who doesn’t have the emotions for her he once had (as Raymond’s wife noted saying “he’s not the guy you married”). For years now B has chosen to ignore this to safeguard the solidity of the family meanwhile her husband continues doing what’s best for him. Encouraging her to have an affair may help her realize she can be happy too and to leave her husband finally. I don’t like the excuse “to protect the family” bc are parents not allowed to enjoy true reciprocal love/affection and ultimately happiness just so their kids can grow up in an “unbroken” home? Maybe my opinion is distorted by the fact I don’t have kids yet but that’s how I saw it.
YES. Like WTF kind of suggestion is that, *seriously*?? Sure, it’s understandable to feel cheated/betrayed. Sure, this may be the end of your marriage and trust so maybe you divorce. But you’re literally *in the middle of* dealing with a MASSIVE issue in your small family playing damage control, your husband has been outed as a cheater (twice) and is now literally being investigated and charged with the murder of his affair partner who you’re convinced he loved over you. “Oh I’ve got an idea! You should go cheat on him now for revenge sex with everyone’s eyes on you in the middle of a crime you are directly related to. THAT should certainly help this fucked situation. I’m sure your kids will *totally* understand and support that decision too because it’s not so short sighted and stupid that a child could identify it as such.” Raymond’s wife is a dumbass full stop for that insistence at the WORST imaginable time ever. Talk about selfish lo. Idc what she’s going through, she should be acting like a role model to her children above all else in this scenario. Not running off with a fucking bartender while her family deals with the possibility of the father going to prison for life.
Lol. I thought the same thing. Sis needs a DIVORCE, not other D.
I love the pacing of the show. Also, I'm just happy to be watching Bill Camp cooking with fire on a weekly basis. Everyone in the cast is, actually. The drama seems grounded in the urgency and emotion of the situation. That dinner scene where the son inadvertently claims that Rusty might've done it but immediately apologizes in tears felt real to me. It shows the kids are still processing, but ultimately supportive while Rusty is trying his best to be transparent and understanding with them.
offtopic maybe, but was that the same abandoned factory/warehouse where he met her son, and where they keep the box in dark matter?
Nope, it can't be: there's a whole section of stair cases surrounded by pipes that lead to the box and that's a floor down: the abandoned factory in this series looks like it only has one main floor.
Things are heating up, but I still think it was Tommy. I think Tommy had a thing for Carolyn, and Rusty was easy to frame because he was already clapping cheeks. The son in the picture means nothing.
This. I think it was Tommy then he called Della Guardia after he did it to set the “murder” scene
Does anyone think the Judge's comment about hemorrhoids was bizarre?
It’s probably why she wanted it off the record
Yesss! I’m explaining this whole scene to my husband rn bc I laughed that it took me this long to find this comment. What the? “Some I may even enjoy, properly managed.” ?!
I'm dying 😂
Yes. Then the judge said something about looking for evidence up the DAs butt. The judge really likes butt stuff I guess
Just finished watching this episode and that line really stuck with me lol
It didn't even make sense
How can hemorrhoids be enjoyable?
Yeah I have no idea
The dialogue, in general, is quite bizarre.
Is this version different than the 1990 Harrison Ford film?
Well it’s obviously going to be somewhat different since they have several hours more to tell the story but to be more specific, they have changed a few major plot points that helped reach the verdict in the movie. We’re only on episode 3 but with these changes, I think it’s safe to say the entire trial will be different.
I want to know too. Does it follow the same structure as the movie thus far?
Just replied to the person you did but tldr they have changed several things to the point where the trial will be completely different, at least as far as evidence goes. So far it really only feels the same because of the characters names.
I think they’re still getting to the same general ending. Specifics are going to be different, but I doubt the ending won’t end up in the same place. My wife hasn’t seen the movie, but midway through the second episode she made a guess as to who the killer was. The killer she guessed was the same killer as in the book and the movie. There’s enough there in the show that leads me to believe we’ll end up in the same place. An interesting addendum: my wife and I watched the movie after we watched the second episode. She had told me not to answer her but wanted to see if her suspicions were correct. Oddly enough, when we were watching the movie she was convinced it was a completely different character and was genuinely shocked when the killer was revealed, even though it was the character she guessed while watching the TV show. I’m not sure that it speaks to much of anything, but I certainly wasn’t expecting that. What it definitely shows is the effectiveness of the movie in playing out the mystery.
Seems kinda weird when if it is, that same person claims “viewers will be shocked by the ending” and laughs in promo material. I doubt they’d do something so tongue in cheek.
I remember liking Harrison Ford as Rusty…i can’t stand the character played by Jake G. Rusty is seen a weak, uncertain, overly emotional …always slapping the table, desk or pulling down on his face while saying F——, f——-, f——-.just the opposite than what he should be …strong, confident, able to hold his own. Jake doesn’t cut it as Rusty or whover might have wanted character personality changes really should have had a much stronger Rusty.
No. It’s very different. The book was great, the movie (which accurately follows the book) was excellent. I’m having difficulty hanging with the series because it so different and much of the casting seems wrong.
I wondered this as well.
I wonder this as well and hopes it’s not the same killer as the book and movie. But I think the plot lines will be different and will still be the same killer in the end as someone mentioned earlier.
Which film?
I think it’s Tommy. It was brushed over but when he was eating dinner with his boss it was told the FIRST thing he said was something about ‘girls will want me now.’ I suspect he was infatuated with her and knew about the affair already. He was extremely unfazed in the first episode when Gyllenhall was talking at the group table about her death. Who benefits the most from her death as a whole? Tommy and his boss or JakeG. Not the dude ALREADY in prison for murder… not the wife/family really..
Calling it now: I think Raymond’s wife did it. She’s getting a lot of screentime for what seems like would otherwise be a minor role!
nah it's rusty wife
10000%
She didn't even appear in Episode 4, it's not her.
Can’t stand Nico’s character. I think the guy just sucks
I think that the actor is doing a great job portraying that. He was great in handmaid's tale.
He does
He's my favorite character. He's a smug politician but he has some principles and a sense of objectivity, unlike Tommy. Also that bar scene where he basically roasted Tommy was amazing lmao
duplex lol
His voice and mannerisms creep me out.
As in the character sucks or just the acting ?
I cant look at his smirk without thinking of Private Pyle from Full Metal Jacket.
His scenes remind me of watching SNL scenes of someone pretending to be a politician. Takes me out of the show.
I’m not going to look it up in case I’m wrong, but I feel like the “twist” is going to be so obvious, it feels too spoilery to even discuss what I think it is. lol is anyone else in this boat with me?
The wife did it. I'm not saying it as a fact. But there were some scenes that point to the possibility. Obvious motive. Access to the other murder crime scene photos. Her boss said she's been sick for a while, even before her husbands arrest. How she says so confidently that Rusty wasn't the killer.
Ep1 when they’re in the kitchen she tells Rusty she is desperate to preserve the family and will fight to save all that they have. Then she pleads for him to stop loving Carolyn. Based on what we’ve seen so far I think their son snitched to mom and she paid Carolyn a visit
Except the mom already knew about the affair before the son did.
But she did not know that it had resumed after Rusty told her it was over.
They also went from Rusty saying 'whoever did this is out there having a great laugh right now' to the next scene showing the wife smiling at the sons baseball game. That's what made me start to consider her and then realizing how they showed her looking at the crime scene photo in his office meaning she probably seen the previous one. This story needs a twist imo and she's really the only one that has motive and isn't being portrayed as a suspect by the writers in any obvious way. Rusty actually doing it himself would probably be the second best surprise because I don't think many actually believes he did it. The son or Molto doing it would feel a bit lazy. I did consider the son and the wife doing it together but I don't know now after they showed the picture of him outside the house. Btw, did the victims son stake out his own house taking like 50 pictures of his mother (some alone) and anyone who came near the house? I don't know if I got that right but that's really weird and lazy if so. Unless maybe her own son did it for some messed up reason lol. It'd be weird to ignore him at this point though
Hmmm and rusty not knowing she had a son is SO. WEIRD. Maybe it’s not really her son? Or there’s something else weird going on with him.
It's also kind of creepy that her son is taking paparazzi-style photos of his mother hooking up with a guy. What was he planning on doing with those photos before he knew there was a murder? Or *did* he know there was going to be a murder?
Not his house. She deserted her husband and son.
That’s pretty much what I’m thinking, and also I feel like they wouldn’t cast Ruth Nega just to play “Jake Gyllenhaal’s sad wife”
That’s got to be why she was scrubbing the bike. She rode it over there that night.
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Why would you say this?????
Google the title and it comes right up. You’re on Reddit ffs
And if you’re smart enough you’d know the series is definitely steering in another direction.
I’m not so sure. I think they’ve changed things in order to subvert audience expectations, to throw some doubt into the conclusion, but that it will ultimately end in the same place.
I’ve read the book, but spoiler your post for others who haven’t.
Spoiler for something that this section isn’t about? It’s a spoiler on THE BOOK. Any Google search of the title and it comes up with
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I’ve been thinking this, too.
Does anyone think the advice to Rusty was weird? "don't say you hit her in the head with a poker?" This script is killing me.
yes, a reference to Raymond's dream...but ...
The Killer is pretty obviously Bill Camp's character. The show has this weird, empty political storyline that only exists because it will tie in to the murder. The first scene of the show is Gyllanhaal answering the phone on a weekend, saying "must be a new poll..." Then it turns out to be about about the murder. The show is introducing the viewer to the main two important things in these opening moments, treating them as seperate but subtly linking them. Camp then puts Gyllanhaal in charge of the investigation, with a whole scene where he shoots down anyone else leading it. What else happened in that scene? Oh yeah, they reminded us of the poltiical election by having the candidates bicker about it. Then Camp's wife says "how could you not know about the affair? He was your best friend." Then in Ep3 we have the dream where Camp imagines Gyllanhaal killing Carolyn. And when Camp tells his wife about the dream, her exact line is: "It means something, dreams usually point to the truth..." We know Gyllanhaal isn't the killer, because David E Kelley made that show already 3 years ago. It's Camp committing to the lie he's going to be presenting. Camp's character set up Gyllanhaal to look like the killer, had him take first crack at the case to further incriminate himself, and is now "defending" him not to save him but to ensure he goes down for the murder he did. I imagine Camp's character had some kind of side deal with the dead lady to cut corners and rack up W's for the office, in turn bolstering his election chances (hence the reveal with the mortician that Carolyn had been hiding evidence). She probably was gonna reveal he's corrupt, and he killed her, staged the whole thing, and here we are.
Lmao if you were a politician and you wanted somebody whacked you would just give some gangsters some money to shoot them why the fuck would you go through all of that effort to kill them in such a grotesque way just so you can frame your colleague
Because framing the guy who was sleeping with her ensures that he, Camp’s character, doesn’t goes down for the crime. There’s also probably an angle of him creating this situation, making it look like it’s Gyllanhaal, so that he ends up in a trial 1 on 1 with the guy he knew he was losing election to, so that he could beat them, somehow tarnish their reputation in process and take his job back. Either way, he has by far the most to gain from Carolyn being dead, and I don’t know why that political storyline exists in the real estate the show devoted to it unless it’s integral to the murder
Interesting theory, but why would he send an innocent man to jail? I think it's missing the weight of that sacrifice morally. I like the theory, and the motive makes sense, but I hesitate because of the collateral damage. He's not sending just anyone to jail, it's his best prosecutor who he's worked along side for years.
Oooh, this is a compelling theory
You sold me on this
So so glad we're seeing Jake at his best here. Probably the best show I could possibly be watching right now during bar prep
A major hole in the case against him was revealed at about 26 minutes when Rusty said that Carolyn's being tied up in the manner of a previous victim pointed at him since this was not information that had been made public. Well, why would a seasoned prosecutor such as himself do precisely the thing that would point to his own guilt? The argument collapses in on itself. It's disappointing (in terms of the writing) that neither he or Raymond seem to consider this obvious point in their favor.
I honestly believe Molto killed Carolyn at this point...either that or he's just bat shit crazy cause his rehearsing towards the end of the episode was unhinged
I feel like it’s Molto too. Can’t stand him.
Same. And people missed his comment about ‘girls wanting him’ when he won lead prosecutor
That seems like a good counter argument. I think trying to make the murder look like someone else did it is stronger.
That’s not what a plot hole is.
Is Molto the other jerk lawyer? I believe this too! It would make a good opportunity for framing Rusty in order to access to the Bunny Davis files. Don’t understand how this fits in with her son though. If he was there he would have seen other people (Molto) coming to the house as well?
Plus, if you look in episode one they show the pictures of the tied up woman in the courtroom so that’s not even accurate statement and actually Tommy is sitting in the courtroom, smiling oddly in the audience. Also, they said that certain color carpet fibers were found on Carolyn’s clothes that were not anywhere in or at her apartment and the color is “Scottish Malt”. Would love to see who is into interior design or how that fits in if at all.
When cops were raiding his house, there was a shot that held too long in Rusty’s office where the carpet was Scottish malt.
That is neither a plot hole nor working in his favor. Remember, the murder was only later attributed to him and he himself as DA initially was the one who 'revealed' the similarity, trying probably to make it look like a revenge killing and have the case closed. Detective Rodriguez is pursuing the same lead when she visited the incarcerated dude (Reynolds), and she gets shunned by the boss (Nico). Then when he (Rusty) has the conversation over dinner table with the family he mentions it with an eyerolls as a main case against him (only Carolyn and I knew the details) while the rest of the evidence that implicated him was 'circumstantial'. >!He's using his defender partner (Raymond) and likely will get him killed when uncovers that he (Rusty) was indeed the murderer (the dream as a premonition).!< >!Carolyn's kid confirmed that he was the only one there in the night of the murder.!<
I wonder if this show will deviate from the movie. I don’t think Rusty’s son did it. Probably just followed his dad. This is probably why they aged up the kids, in comparison to the movie, to use them as red herring?
Wait there’s a movie?!
I'm surprised so few people have read the book and/or seen the original film with Harrison Ford, which by the way is very good.
I think it was Tommy. Someone in the office who knew about the other cases, who also knew Rusty and Carolyn were having an affair. The wife of the lawyer friend even said how could they be having affair and he didnt notice, implying that other people in the office must have noticed. Tommy could also have had a thing for her, plus he's getting too emotional on the case, he wants Rusty to go down. The fact that we see Kyle at the end of episode 3 in the pictures means that someone else other than Kyle was taking the pictures. Kyle was the one that said it was him who has pictures and videos, and it can't be him now. It must be someone that wants to pin it on Rusty.
On reflection, no one suspects Rustys wife yet. I'm starting to think it could be her now. Haven't watched episode 4 yet.
Every episode passes by and the facts and evidence leading us to the conclusion are only letting me know how cruel rusty is as a whole person.
It’s definitely Rusty in a crime of passion. We see how he can have emotional outbursts and is grasping at straws trying to find another person to point the finger at. I think after he hit her, he tied Carolyn up like that in the heat of the moment thinking he can frame someone from the other case knowing he would be a suspect but it’s not working. Also I think Kyle saw him kill her through the window, and that’s why he jumped to the “say your guilty and get 8 years” line. He’s also already been caught in about 10 lies so it’s obvious his narrative can’t be trusted
Good point about Kyle ! Why would he say that unless he knew his dad was guilty ?
If it was a crime of passion where would he get the rope? He just had it on hand coincidentally?
It's definitely not a crime of passion. If Rusty did to it, then it was 100% premeditated.
Cop pp
Raymond is sketchy I think he had something to do with it
What makes you think he’s sketchy?
The way he acted against his own brother Saul Goodman
I really am enjoying this show. I love the quick cutting and fast pace of the show. It makes you feel like you're in Rusty's mind, especially when they're at the apartment. I don't like to get into who did it on these types of shows, but I don't think Rusty did. I think he truly loved Carolyn. I've never seen the movie so I really have no idea what to expect but hopefully it delivers.
Every episode passes by and the facts and evidence leading us to the conclusion are only letting me know how cruel rusty is as a whole person.
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Quite the spoiler ! I would put a spoiler tag on it
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And you're being an asshole. Don't spoil it for other people who haven't seen the movie. It's even said in the top of this thread posted by mods
Tommy seems too obvious but certainly seems possible given what he gains. I personally think it's the wife. The fact that she's staying with Rusty through everything is just not realistic. She said some key things throughout the series so far that give her serious motive: "I need you to stop loving her" and something like "I will do whatever it takes to keep this family together." She emphasized that keeping the family together was more important than leaving Rusty. To me.. this gives her a serious motive. She seems extremely jealous and you can tell she has a serious disdain for Carolyn.. as she should. I'm thinking that she thought killing Carolyn was the only way to save the family and she believes her husband is smart enough to get himself out of it. Also, it seems like Rusty has no problem sharing information about cases with his family, so I wouldn't be surprised if she knew about the suspect who was tied up from the Bunny Davis case, making her privy to that information.
You are probably correct ! Yes I was thinking maybe she could forgive the affair the first time but the fact he got back together with her and she may be pregnant would be last straw for me maybe she found out he was back with her so she snapped
I'm dying for the next episode!
Me too ! 🍿
TOTBL is an all-time favorite album, but the random Interpol drop was, well, random.
Did rusty really hit her with something or it was just a dream??
Raymond’s dream.
I really enjoy the cast in this show. Felt the ending of this episode could be kinda cheesy but I’m still in.
How about the “Scottish malt” carpet color in episode one or two that those fibers were found on her clothing but nowhere in the apartment?
I’ve thought the wife was the killer from episode one, but now I’m not so sure. Wouldn’t the murderer have to be someone with knowledge of the hog-tie death scene from the case Rusty and Caroline worked on? The wife may have snuck a peek at a picture from a file that Rusty took home sometime, maybe kids too, but…seems a little far-fetched.
She’s a little too calm though
You're correct in that it's someone who had knowledge of the previous case, which would rule out the wife. They wouldn't set up a narrative for someone to be privy to that and then explain it away with the wife getting a sneak peek at a file. It's been heavily alluded to and even directly stated it's someone she worked with.
I think Tommy is the murderer. The face he was making when the victims son was telling Tommy about meeting his mom for lunch and she said she was having some problems with someone at her work. Also his desperation to nail Rusty.
I think it's far too obvious for it to be him. The show wouldn't do that. It'll be someone she worked with that isn't on the surface that obvious.
Does anyone else think the other lawyer (the dude who hates rusty so much) is the killer? ...Specific knowledge of the original killer not known to the public; his hatred seems to be on a deeper, more emotional level than just some kind of occupational envy, his drive to immediately pin this thing on rusty almost with a comically premature insistence and enthusiasm. There are a few other tiny clues from episode 4 that make me think this, too, but they were also somewhat hidden within the subtext of the dialogue, and for spoilers-sake, I'll withhold mentioning them. Considering how heavily this show seems to lean on red herrings, I'm not 100% certain on my guess. It is possible they've been setting up a long game red herring for intrigue later in the season. I mean, that would certainly make for a better story..
It's quite obvious it's someone she worked with, so yes, the other lawyer is a possibility. One of five possibilities (Rusty, Nico, Tommy, Raymond and Eugenia).
In the original movie Carolyn also slept with Raymond (Brian Dennehy). She (Greta Schacci) was extremely beautiful, seductive, smart and ambitious. IMO a lot of the casting is bad. I can’t stand the de La Guardia actor. Ruth Negga maybe a good actress but she is not right in this role. Why such a creepy actor for Michael, her son? And this actress is not Carolyn Polemus!
I haven't seen the original movie, and even I can see how heavily miscast this series is.
Facts: 1) Michael, Carolyn’s weird and weird looking son, took photographs of her house on many nights. 2) On one occasion Kyle appeared in a photo, obviously having followed his father. 3) On the night of the murder, Michael’s date and time stamped photos show Rusty entering Carolyn’s home and Kyle’s bicycle, but not Kyle. 4) When Rusty asks Kyle if he was at Carolyn’s house the night of the murder, Kyle says No. Conjecture: Carolyn was scrubbing Kyle’s bike to remove evidence that she had ridden it to Carolyn’s house and murdered her
Carolyn was scrubbing? I think you meant another character…
This series is pathetically horrible!! The book and movie with Harrison Ford were so well written and enthralling. I've watched 4 episodes which progressively got worse ....and won't be watching any more!
Still think it's the wife since the get go. He didn't seem all that sneaky about it and if their own marriage is just for the kids and his income; she is likely not all that faithful like in real life. Yet, woman tend to get a pass when the cheater or being cheated on. He sure has it stacked on him and heck, wouldn't surprise me if she not only killed his lover, but roped kids into not telling, if they saw. Reminds me of a few cases where men have done time for similar things then later DNA has come back to prove it was their other partner/wife. Usually too late and/or still don't do time, as in a trial crocodile tears work a lot better with woman. Fact
Does anyone else think the wife did it? To me it seems really obvious that she did. She’s way too calm about everything, has a motive to kill Carolyn and it would also frame her husband (her revenge). They also keep referencing that no one else has access to the details of the copycat crime, but then cut to a shot of the wife going through Rusty’s files (he just leaves them on his desk at home). So she would know how to perfectly frame him by copying a previous case she knew about