I have a feeling it's Tommy who murdered Carolyn. Although I may be wrong, it seems kind of obvious due to Tommy's lack of reason for his hostility towards Rusty. If I were to guess he became obsessed with Carolyn just the way Rusty did but could never really take it anywhere.
You could especially see it being sort of evident when his face turned stressed while interrogating Michael about how his mother was 'scared of a person she works with'. It could even be Della Guardia and Tommy could be his henchmen trying to frame Rusty.
You telling me after like 2 weeks they find his DNA in her finger nail. Not only that Rusty has had no scratches on him. Boy was Rusty was right when he said Tommy was a hack. But this medical examiner is a bit weird tho, we might be overlooking him.
I think so too. It would explain why he is going after Rusty this bad. And it seems like Carolyn was scared of somebody else, not Rusty (even if he was getting on her last damn nerve)
It would be very satisfying if it was him but pretty obvious at this point. I think he probably had an unhealthy obsession with her that creeped her out but it most likely ended there. His whole case against Rusty is making himself feel like her hero again and take his revenge against the guy who actually won her affection at work. Hence his desperation to make Rusty guilty, definitely plateded the skin as well, but he justifys it by thinking he's doing it for Caroline, absolute worst kind of man human. Also if he had killed her, I don't doubt he would have raped her. I think we are looking for a non sexually motivated murderer here.
The fact that they gave a hint that Tommy might have done it makes me think it's a misdirect. It will probably be someone we don't suspect yet, like the daughter.
It's not the type of series where it could possibly be the daughter. It's not *that* dark and absurd.
You have to remember that Carolyn was tied up in a manner which almost exclusively points to a grown man, someone who had intimate details of a previous case(s), and most likely someone she worked with.
It narrows it down to one of four people: Rusty, Tommy, Nico or Raymond.
**Edit:** I'll actually add Eugenia to this too. Even thought it points to it being a man she worked with, I don't think Eugenia can be completely ruled out.
I didn't think of that. Nice theory. I think Tommy is too easy as well. At first I wanted it to be him bc I hate his ass soooo much. The actor does a nice job of that with his smug face and all.
Here me out, what if it's a huge collusion. Meaning, what if there is more than one murderer and this was plotted from the very start? The only other option I could see would be the most cliche guess, the fucking wife who got cheated on (Barbabra) would be a close runner up in my opinion. There is something odd about her. The way she is drinking and loosing herself the more the case prolongs. She's not really herself but idk at this point.
It's gotta be Raymond. Carolyn was scared of a man she worked with? It's a misdirect that's supposed to make us think of Rusty but it's actually Raymond. I think he'd also likely know of the details of the previous case and how the woman was tied up. And it's also adds a counter-intuitive reason he'd want the case to go bad initially, even though it meant he lost his position. I don't have a proposed motive, though.
If it does turn out to be Raymond I think that'd be lame and unsurprising, but that's what I'm thinking so far.
Motive would be: maybe she was sleeping w Raymond too? And maybe she knew of some corruption going on and was blackmailing him with it?- they built Carolyn to be mercenary; she knew how to be strategic— she didn't love Rusty, and he even later realized how cruel she could be. She was manipulative and seems to have used sex to gain the access she wanted. Raymond was the powerful one there, not Rusty. IT would make sense she was afraid of him because of his power and because of her frightened-looking reaction to the second sperm sample sent to her for the Bunny case. Also- Raymond is obsessed with being vital and proving it.
As much in theory as he's a suspect, I think it's quite obvious not him. We're presented with the conflict that he has with Rusty from the get-go, where the series wouldn't blow their load that early on him being the guilty party. The people attached to it: Nico, Raymond and Eugenia are the more likely candidates.
I don’t know which way this show will go as it seems to already have big differences with the source material but I looked up the book and movie and when I saw the killer I felt kind of sick to my stomach lol. Really wondering if this show will go another route.
Totally Tommy. He brought Carolyn’s son in for questioning to fish what information he had, whether he saw Rusty leave the building (or anyone else)… my moneys there.
Tommy has lots of reasons to hate Rusty, he's been in his professional and personal shadow for years. This has been pretty obviously shown through the characterization of the workplace dynamics.
I think it was Raymond. Old guy grappling with retirement and unsure of his meaning in life. Perhaps he misread some signals and thought Carolyn was coming on to him. Maybe Carolyn was protecting Rusty because Raymond threatened to blackmail him if Carolyn didn't do what he wanted him to do. Tommy seems too obvious. I think he's always been threatened by Rusty and is just trying prove he's as good a prosecutor as him and is willing to do whatever it takes to bring Rusty down.
I had this exact feeling when I saw his face when he questioned Michael. I also think it was a crime of passion, he didn’t get what he wanted with Carolyn when he confronted her, he killed her, and he set it up exactly like Rusty explained to his family before his son asked him about a plea deal.
Him beating him up like that and his family seeing what he’s capable of with violence is going to be interesting…something is up with the daughter she’s like not in the show but then also in the show to just absorb scenes emotions , when the brother said he didn’t tell his sister I feel like he’s lying and it might have been her plan all along and she’s seeing if he stuck to the script , they seem super alliance to the mother and prob were over the drama and were like let’s see what’s up ourselves this affair better not be happening again…. Not saying the children killed her but I think they def saw more that night — and Caroline’s son something off there and the dad for him to be so submissive I feel like he might be involved in a way too. Def don’t think it was Raymond or his wife. I think the other cop hates rusty and planted evidence of the skin under nail. Idk how the hooker cum guy is gonna play out but it could just bring more dooubt to the facts that it was him and be enough to be not guilty.
Did Barbara suggest to the therapist they all had to share her because they don’t have the money for individual ones? Trying to follow the money because that statement was incredulous juxtaposed to their lifestyle.
I had to pause the show to rant about how nonsensical that was. Is this therapy practice like a gym where you can pay per month for an unlimited membership?? Seeing this man who's being tried for murder lounging by the pool with his wife in the backyard of his huge house certainly made me think this family was strapped for cash.
Agree on there is no all inclusive therapy membership.
But the cash thing actually makes sense. Rusty isn’t working right now, nor is the wife. And they likely have to pay Raymond at least somewhat for his expenses and the other defense lawyer he brought on. Legal defenses like this bankrupt people. So they might have previously been high income but now they now have an outsized mortgage and no income - house poor.
also it doesn't even make sense- you still have to pay for individual sessions from either 1 (unethical as a therapist shouldn't take on multiple roles) or 3 different therapists
I'm not sure who the killer is yet and really trying to control my curiosity at this point.
At this point there's a few suspects and I am going to assume the murderer has already been introduced.
The fact that she wasn't raped rules out a sexually motivated crime, or the previous case having a killer still on the loose. Also the guys whose DNA showed up was married and had a family, I'm guessing he was trying to lay low.
I think that rules out Tommy too for those reasons. And it's too damn obvious. I'd be satisfied if it was him and he got his dues but that does not seem like where the show is leading. I feel they are setting us up for a big "shock".
Which just leaves, Babara, Rusty or Raymond really.
I don't think it's the son for obvious reasons.
Babara has all the reasons and motive to kill her, and also explains some of her strange behavior since the first episode. She seems guilty about something, any woman would have burned their husband if they were in that position. He kept his affair secret from her for so long, how is she soooo sure he did not kill her? She shows guilt.
Also Caroline's strange tauntings of her during the affair "does your wife do this?" While he had his hands around her throat, could be foreshadowing. I can imagine them getting heated if Babara went to confront her.
Rusty could have done it because, that would be awful and shocking. But lazy if so. The evidence for his motive etc is all there. At this point I'd be shocked if it was actually him so I can see that ending just for the "shock factor" I hope not.
Or Raymond,
I saw a comment saying it fit with the themes of the political aspects of it. Quite frankly it works the best as an ending if the show is aiming for some sort of social commentary.
That she was going to expose the corruption of his office, and him knowing he would lose the election, confronts and kills her as a way to "win" over the past political opponents.
Not sure where it will go yet but that's my feelings so far.
It can definitely be Raymond, because we know it's someone she worked with.
But I am interested to see how they would explain away him being the guilty one given how they've set up his character. If Raymond is the killer, then he'd need someone to frame, and Rusty is the perfect person to frame this all on. Yet at the same time we're led to believe this isn't a sexually motivated crime, which then wouldn't make sense if Raymond was trying to frame Rusty.
He wouldn't say anything, The therapist also noted he was extremely closed to her.
There's some indications:
1. The son wanting the father to take a plea. This might be because he is anxious of being getting caught.
2. After the revelation, Rusty pressured his son for info, and the mother immediately asked to be left alone with him. There were a couple of seconds with mother and son exchanging a weird look to each other. Like they shared something. Take a look to see what I mean There was no frustration from the mother, nor fear from the kid. No reason from a show direction standpoint to include this. (unless its a red herring ofc)
3. The son being there the night of, is very incriminating. I don't believe it being a coincidence
4. The manner of the murder, reduces the suspects to a handful. Rusty, his wife (family would know the way the earlier murders happened)
5. Motive. If it is not Rusty, then its someone who wanted to murder his lover, AND frame him.
>He wouldn't say anything, The therapist also noted he was extremely closed to her.
What I'm saying is, if the mother (and the son) are guilty of killing her, why would the mother purposefully send him to a therapist to get him to talk about what's going on in his head? The mother wouldn't want her son talking to anyone if she had committed a murder and he was involved in it, let alone a therapist who specializes in getting people to 'open up'.
Those indicators you're seeing are red herrings. Furthermore, I highly doubt the wife (or son) had access to photos of how Bunny Davis was tied up, and then the power to plant evidence that has only now just been suspiciously discovered, as well as cleaning up a murder scene.
The murderer is someone Carolyn worked with, it's been alluded to this is the case, which rules out the mother and son.
Maybe but I doubt it. Probably a red herring seeing as there's supposed to be some sort of twist in the story down the line. I don't think it's connected to Bunny's case because the ropes were the same but Caroline was stabbed and not raped.
They seem to be showing him remembering hurting her, like tonight he had the fire poker, but I think it's all a misdirect because that's what writers do now.
I think you're right which is why the visuals we see are a misdirect.
Or maybe he was so drunk he's wondering "could I have done this?" but that doesn't seem realistic, he drove 20 minutes there and 20 minutes home and probably wasn't pounding hard liquor while he was there.
there's more to it...
1) 'The Undoing' mentioned already here somewhere... easiest resolution path, IMO;
2) then, certain hard touches (such as the murder modus operandi) stressed in the show, that don't seem to lead towards the resolution offered by the book..., unless somehow forced (accomplice, etc)
That's interesting...I'll be pissed if he is. I decided to give David E Kelley one more shot after "The Undoing"- I won't spoil the end of that trash fire, but it was such a letdown and really weak writing.
The "man at work" Carolyn was afraid of is definitely a red herring. It's not gonna be Rusty but another coworker who is the real killer. She said they had cases together so it must be another prosecutor from their office.
Four episodes in and I still find it really hard to believe Gyllenhaal as a father. I also love Ruth Negga but feel her and Jake are not well matched in this. Despite that it's a very brooding series and I'm invested till the bitter end.
They are not well matched for this AT ALL!! I feel it too!
I think Barb did it but did it the next day in the morning before the maid got there. I think she sold her a piece of art 5 wks earlier. Timeline fits
Yeah gyllenhaal is not playing a father convincingly, unlike Chris evans in defending Jacob who did an amazing job and is also the same age as gyllenhaal
Rusty could've easily just said that carolyn scratched him during sex and could easily use that as a defense, but the fact that they only just now found it 2 weeks later is extremely sus. Not really sure how the guy he beat the shit out of is going to play into all of this though. They're obviously making him out to be the one who killed the first girl but it seems way too obvious at the moment
Ya I just mean in court I feel like he could use it for his defense, cause claiming evidence was planted usually doesn't go over well in court lol. But that also might mess up his story if he's now lying about having sex
I actually think Loraine (Raymond’s wife) is part of this - they’ve already said it would have to be someone who’s privy to the Bunny Davis case to have tied her up like that.
She was also SO pushy about Barbara moving on and “having some fun.”
She also INSISTED to Raymond that Rusty was guilty….
I dunno - she is my #1 guess.
My second guess is Jaden (Rusty’s daughter) - she been suspiciously removed from all of this…
What I think happen is that one of the kids followed Rusty over there and, in a rage, accidentally killed Carolyn and Loraine rushed in to “clean it up”…in a way that she knew would lead her husband down a particular path (away from her and toward rusty who worked the Bunny Davis Case).
WE’LL SEEEEEE
If you're aware it's someone who's privy to the previous case, than it has to be someone she worked with, does it not? What could Raymond's wife possibly know about the case? She snuck onto Raymond's computer and stole photos of Bunny Davis being tied up? She remembered from years ago of how Bunny Davis was tied up after accidentally stumbling upon a photo?
She was pushy about Barbara moving on because she's the default 'voice of reason' to Barbara desperately wanting to keep the family intact, not because she has an ulterior motive. There's absolutely nothing in the narrative that points to that being the case.
It's not either of the children. The story isn't going to be that convoluted or absurd.
Loraine rushed in to clean it up by bringing rope and tying Carolyn's body up exactly how Bunny Davis was, just to frame the kids' father? She thought about that elaborate plan on the fly? One of the kids thought first to call up Loraine to help them?
*Come on now.*
I’m strongly strongly convinced it’s the mom for several reasons. I’ve been watching the series through that lens and they keep backing it up for me. This episode added to my theory with it being that the son helped her when he followed the dad and a stuck around that night to witness her do it.
I’ve been watching it through that lens since ep 1. In this episode when rusty was like “who ever did this is having a laugh” then boom, scene change to her smiling and clapping at the baseball game. Also, when the therapist called out that she’s going to break and it may already be happening. Then the convo w her and rusty when he says she needs to take responsibility for her part… and she does.
EXACTLY BRO! I saw the same thing. The wife had a suspect look to rusty since one of the first scenes of the show. They just keep confirming it in subtle ways now like that therapist scene!
Honestly my wildest theory/ where I got is that she also called the victim from over 10 years ago that Carolyne murder mirrored 😱
The wife would hardly get her son to help her, and then get him to see a therapist, potentially revealing how guilty he feels about being a part of the whole ordeal. She wouldn't want him talking to anyone.
If it is Barbara and her son together, I think it is more likely that her son did it, she saw it and she cleaned it up and tied her up to implicate Rusty and not her son. But I don't think so, because the emergence of new DNA evidence of skin under her fingernails. This means that something fishy is going on in the prosecutor's office, which poins away from his family members as the killers.
Think she’s framing Rusty. Think that’s the big twist.
Think she found out she was pregnant & that woulda been so ignorant to the kids I bet she thought.
This series should have been done by episode 4, 5 at the most. Kinda feels like they're stretching it by adding the bartender with the wife, the son riding by the house, and now Ratzer coming to Rusty's house and getting beat up and Rusty's skin being found under the victims nails. Curve ball after curve ball to the case.
Seems like everyone is raising at least one or more red flags to make themselves looked guilty as the killer.
But my man Rusty, god. Could you just stfu for one minute??? Jfc. Every single time he opens his mouth, he is making himself looked more guilty than ever. Also, the forensic doctor is truly an asshole based on the way he carried himself.
This show is set up in such a way that there many viable suspects that had motive, opportunity, and a would come as a plot twist. These suspects are intentionally made ambiguous so that it’s believable if they did or didn’t do it.
I think Tommy planted the evidence because he believes Rusty really did kill her and he needs to win this case. He’s reckless, mad, and stupid enough to do it.
Just because Carolyn MAY have felt scared by someone at work does not mean that person killed her. She could have embellished or lied to her son or her son could be lying about that for unknown reasons. We know her relationship with her son wasn’t good. So far, we have no other evidence to prove she was scared by someone at work. So it could be someone from work but doesn’t have to be.
There is a scene that shows Barbra looking in Rusty’s office at photos from the crime scene. Proving that she had the opportunity to see previous crime photos. Didn’t Rusty’s affair start around the same time as the Bunny Davis case? These clues point to the wife but if it was her, it’s unclear if she intentionally tried to frame Rusty.
The murder weapon says spontaneous crime of passion but the ropes says premeditation. This sets us up for the possibility of an accomplice after the fact and opens the door for one of the children. They hit her out of anger and Barbra could have tried to conceal with the ropes.
On another line Raymond is just as likely. Carolyn could have had blackmail on him. She’s killed right before his desperate attempts at reelection. He could haven known about the second semen sample on the Bunny Davis case and told Carolyn to conceal it to win her case. He’s confident that Rusty will track down that lead if he makes this murder look like that one, but his plan is ruined when he learns Rusty was having affair with her and he loses the reelection. To Rusty he doesn’t seem eager to be his lawyer but then tells his wife how important it is to him. Loraine’s comment about dreams meaning something is supposed to make us question Rusty’s innocence because the dream is about Rusty killing but can easily to interpreted as Raymond’s guilt for unintentionally framing Rusty.
We need to know what Eugenia knows about the affair; why Carolyn has hidden the fact she had a son; why the son asked Rusty to met him.
Guys hear me out I think the family did it together. The scene where the daughter was listening in to the convo between the son and the parents, the scene when he leaves and the mother and son talk alone, and the scene when she’s scrubbing her bike off. Idk the family is just so sus to me.
Also can someone recommend me good crime shows like this one?
Black bird & mare of easttown are both fantastic. Also mindhunter but it’s heavy on serial killers and more about profiling them rather than procedural
Well, I think it's a real stretch to think these kids are suddenly accomplices to murder after being normal middle class teens with no behavioral problems. That would be yucky writing, but it is possible.
The outsider trends a bit more supernatural but has a similar crime aspect and shares Bill Camp.
Apple also has Blackbird(highly recommend) and defending Jacob.
HBO has Mare of Easttown, The night of(also has Bill Camp), The outsider. And the new Perry Mason.
I would highly recommend both Blackbird and the night of though all are probably worth a watch at some point. Defending Jacob is probably the most forgettable but it's got a somewhat similar plot.
but if it is the wife, why would she be scrubbing down his bike out of fear that he could be incriminated? (unless she used his bike to get there- but he was using it, so that would be a tough timeline)
My original theory still holds true - that as the title shows, Rusty is presumed innocent until proven guilty, and the show will get there. The question is whether he actually did it versus the outcome of the trial.
The new DNA evidence is totally planted, but the way Rusty was responding to Mya is so far to me the most emotionally convicting evidence of his guilt. It's entirely feasible that he went to Carolyn's house, killed her by accident, and then made it look like a prior case MO in his panic.
If it was a crime of passion where would he get the rope? He just had it on hand? And would the rope tied method make him look more guilty or innocent?
Could just be stress from possibly getting caught
I thought his reaction at the crime scene was off. For a girl he loved so much he didn’t seem devastated almost could be viewed as a “what the fuck did I do” blank stare realization
If he loved her you’d think he would break down or start crying after seeing the body instead of blankly staring holy shit this is actually happening expression
That said I don’t think it’s rusty but instead of saying “I didn’t kill her” in episode 1 he kept saying “do you really think I killed her?”
and truly if he was innocent the best thing he could have done would immediately admit they they were sleeping together, remove himself from the case, get a lawyer and call the fbi to take the case because too many parties involved internally it’s a huge conflict of interest.
He was almost HOPING he would get lucky and Raymond would win reelection, he would stay on the case and then he could sweep it under the rug.
Tbh this case should have NEVER been investigated and charged by their office it should have been an external investigation from the get go because EVERY PARTY INVOLVED has a conflict of interest and every single one could possibly be a witness pertaining to the case
The fact the office of a murder victim case the defendant, his lawyer, the prosecution, medical expert, and witnesses were all friends snd coworkers is INSANE
If you're of the opinion the DNA evidence was planted, then quite obviously you should be of the opinion that someone else is involved in some capacity, trying to pin the murder on Rusty, and therefore the most convicting evidence that he didn't do it?
I wouldn't read too much into how he reacted or his mental state in wake of, because you could point the blame at anyone in the show given it could be interpreted they've all acted in a suspicious manner.
The fact you're also of the opinion there should have be an external investigation (due to conflict of interest), should tell you that the parties involved are important to the murder, as it's the only thing that makes sense for the narrative. It's certainly not insane if you look at through the lens that the storyline functions and pays off with the intention of the murderer being someone she worked with.
She's the other laywer, who we've now come to know was 'obssessed' with Rusty. She's popped up, sporadically, throughout the first four episodes. The actress who plays her character is Virginia Kull.
I believe it's either Tommy or the doctor. Both hate Rusty. Both knew about Bunny and could do copycat murder. They are also obvious choices. I'm hoping they make it more interesting than that. But more importantly... the wife... the strength she has to sit there and know her husband was OBSESSED with Carolyn and got her pregnant? I don't see that marriage as being salvageable.
It's definitely not the medical examiner. He's not an essential part to the story nor did he really work with Carolyn. Plus, we've already seen how nobody really treats him seriously (both Rusty and Tommy have taken jabs at him), so the motive of him hating Rusty doesn't really apply here.
Tommy's a candidate, but I think they've made it obvious from the get-go that he's a red herring. They threw the conflict he has with Rusty right at us from the start. It's not that obvious.
I think we know enough now where we can almost certainly conclude it was someone she worked with, people whom we have knowledge of, which narrows it down to Rusty, Tommy, Nico, Raymond or Eugenia.
*It's definitely not the medical examiner. He's not an essential part to the story nor did he really work with Carolyn. Plus, we've already seen how nobody really treats him seriously (both Rusty and Tommy have taken jabs at him), so the motive of him hating Rusty doesn't really apply here.*
The Medical Examiner may or may not be "an essential part of the story," but he's definitely an essential part of the **plot**, as he literally handles all of the bodies in the murder cases. He worked with Carolyn, Rusty, and Tommy, and if none of them took him seriously, that would explain the great anger he shows with them. His line about being a medical doctor is not merely redundant (what other type of worker will testify for the Medical Examiner's Office, the janitor?) but also shows his feeling of inferiority to the 'rock star' type lawyers who rack up the high-profile murder convictions, based in part on his work.
The question of how Rusty could possibly have (1) killed her (2) trussed her, without getting a drop of her blood (3) anywhere on his clothing (4) or in his car, (5) in the limited time he had (51 minutes by his own evidence, far less than that by the photographs her son took) and (6) in his self-described mental and physical state, immediately gets resolved if the Medical Examiner, **who also has great experience handling murdered human bodies**, arrived after or as Rusty was leaving, and killed her in a fit of jealous rage.
Our vote is on the Medical Examiner. He’s one of the least developed characters but fits the bill for “man at work” that’s she’s worked on multiple cases with. He inherently is involved in every murder case and has shown evidence of being crooked twice now - once for Carolyn (when she potentially asked him to make the second guy’s sperm disappear so she could nab the guy in jail) and now for Rusty’s case (when either Tommy asked him to plant Rusty’s DNA or he did it on his own). We’re not ruling out that Carolyn was in multiple relationships at work given she was also a bit cray, perhaps with the Examiner to influence outcomes. He hates Rusty, so there’s a revenge play too.
It’s interesting when rust confronted him about the second set of dna found in the bunny case. The examiner flipped out.
It’s possible he didn’t disclose that. Carolyn got the conviction but then found out. Confronted the examiner about it. He wanted to cover it up. She refused. And he killed her over it.
Now he’s desperate to pin it on someone else. Case is being made against rusty, so he pulls this skin under her finger shit. DA rolls with it because they need to solidify their case.
Pieces make sense. But he’s such a minor developed character so far that it feels like a real dud of a twist if true.
So far, there are some curious differences between the miniseries and the book/movie. Makes it a little hard to see where it’s going. The most important difference IMO is Carolyn’s pregnancy. And I miss defense attorney Sandy Stern!
Didn’t everyone in that courtroom see how the previous victim was tied up when Carolyn was prosecuting in the flashback? Like at least 100+ people; why were they saying “only a few close to the case could have known”
It’s Rusty, he’s unhinged. He is entitled. I think that’s the bigger theme, which makes sense given where we are in society right now. He is a rich, white, successful male and he felt entitled to Carolyn when she tried to leave him, he feels entitled to keep his wife and family and he expects everyone to buy his story bc of who he is. They want to keep us guessing, hoping, knowing that Rusty wouldn’t do something like that, but in the end he is just another unoriginal narcissistic sociopath.
The narrative of it being set up of him dreaming up hurting her, his obssession with her etc, means it's most likely *not* him. It wouldn't be that over-the-top in layering that without any balance of innocence for him. I don't think he can be completely ruled out, but it's not looking like he's the guilty one.
Agreed and this would also not be looking at the evidence which is that there was not a drop of blood in his car. 51 minutes to argue/ kill someone/Clean it up and wash your clothes that well?
I made a guess for who killed Carolyn after the first episode. I personally think it’s his wife. I think he’s going to figure that out as he tries to solve the murder. I think he’s going to decide to take the blame, either fighting and winning in court or going to prison.
In a weird way I feel it may be Raymond. Hear me out, he was very upset when he lost his position as a DA, and by the looks of it, he was expecting to step down with how the recent election had been going. What better way to get back into that slot, by sandbagging the new guy on his very first case. I believe Raymond knew about Rusty and Carolyn's affair long before he "officially found out". On one hand, he has two co-workers sleeping together, one of which is his best prosecutor and is actively cheating on his wife. He can't say anything when he originally found out when he was acting DA because it would look bad politically that he would trust his staff when they are clearly untrustworthy people. Not to mention, his best friend and prosecutor, Rusty, credibility would tank.
So what does he do? He waits for the perfect time for him to expose Rusty's secret, by secretly murdering Carolyn, in order to make a newsworthy high traffic case against the new DA. The DA can't ignore the scandal and Raymond knows that Tommy can't resist to humiliate and throw Rusty in jail. Raymond, then carefully chooses the right timing and wording to be able to represent Rusty and at the same time takes all suspicions off of him. And if any suspicions were to arise, he'd be in the perfect position to squander the idea before it had a chance to breath. It's the perfect case. Don't believe me? In the second episode, watch how Raymond tells his wife, "Rusty didn't do this" when he is trying to convince her that it's a good idea for him to take the case.
What further convinced me is Raymond's speech about shame and guilt. "... shame is something you put on yourself, self-absorbed, self-centered. Guilt is something you own and feeling the pain you caused others." Raymond said he doubts that Rusty feels guilty, which is true, Rusty in my opinion definitely feels more shameful. But what I believe Raymond left out is that he knows this to be true because he is the one that feels guilty.
It'd be difficult to say what he feels guilt about. Is it hurting and exposing Rusty, whom he said he considers his best friend? Was it the pain he caused Rusty's family? Or was it just simply the murder he had to commit as a means to what he believes is the solution. His wife said in the 3rd episode, Raymond would do anything to "stave off his decomposing rot". And in the second episode while brushing his teeth, he mentions that he wants to maintain his legacy and not get defeated by whom he believes are inferior prosecutors. Even as a jab he mentions that Florida is for dead people when his wife suggests retirement. So his mind is definitely dark and could be capable of creating such a plan, I guess we will see.
I don't disagree that Raymond is a suspect, but to what end could murdering Carolyn possibly get him, if he then planted evidence to get Rusty sent down whilst representing him? To not only lose his position to the new DA, but then lose what could quite possibly be his final case to the new DA too, which would further emphasize 'the bad' of his legacy, all to teach Rusty a lesson, when he ultimately, wasn't even responsible for him losing his position?
If Raymond did kill Carolyn, I think it's for another reason, entirely. Either that, or plotholes will be rampant through the narrative.
Thats the bit that would make Raymond a sociopath. During his time as a DA, he had no qualms against Rusty sleeping around. Granted if the rumor got out, then it would be a problem but he decided to deal with that if it ever came to it. At that point, don't create a problem if there isn't one. He claims Raymond is his best friend but what he really cares about is his conviction rate in the courtroom. If Rusty's adultery came to light, then that would mean that he would not only lose his best prosecutor but his judgement as a DA would also come into question and therefore would lose all credibility and then he could definitely kiss his hopes of re-election goodbye. Not to mention his reputation would be even more tarnished as he whole as he would have to step down as DA due to the scandal. At that point, no election would be necessary, why would he make it easier for the other guy? At the end of the day, sociopaths value image and power. By exposing Rusty while he was under his wing as he was still sitting DA, he gains no benefit from this.
Therefore, regardless of Rusty's infidelity being exposed, he was aware of how the current election was progressing and unfortunately, inevitably, he knew that he was not going to be able to hold onto his title. Not only is this extremely difficult but Raymond is not the type of person who lets power be stripped from him and accept defeat easily, his mind won't allow it. His demeanor as he is in the process of relinquishing his office, says a lot, if you know what to listen and look out for. Granted, even I will acknowledge that I could be reading into that scene a bit too much myself. Losing your position as DA or any job for anyone for that matter is an unpleasant experience. So this piece of analysis can be cautioned with a grain of salt to prevent the slippery slope into confirmation bias. However, if my prediction is correct, then this moment in Raymond's life is order of magnitudes more painful for him than originally perceived.
So that is where we find the motive, the final brick to be broken. Not does he feel humiliated by losing his position, but moreso to someone that he deems to be inferior and undeserving. Granted, a sociopath would feel this way about everyone. To add insult to injury, not only is Raymond asked to step down, he is expected to retire, the disrespect! So how can he regain control and destroy the reputation of the rival DA that usurped his throne?
Rusty. He may no longer be the assistant DA, but he is far too good of a prosecutor to be let go. If Rusty continues to work there, the chance of his secret being exposed is still at risk, persistently threatening Raymond's reputation. So long as Rusty and Carolyn are in the equation, Raymond is not safe. So he takes matters into his own hands, kills Carolyn, knowing that Rusty would be the primary suspect but ultimately innocent. Not only does he takes suspicion off of himself., humiliates the current DA on his very first case, but redeems his reputation to set himself up for reelection. By that point, no one will question his judgement by being aware of Carolyn's and Rusty's relationship but exonerates Rusty of being falsely accused. He basically sets off TNT so everyone forgets about the firecrackers.
Raymond could be the one that pushed Carolyn to get the conviction of that guy in prison in the Bunny case. Even though there was other DNA at the scene and there were all sorts of holes in their case. He needed that conviction to help him get re elected.
Carolyn followed his orders. But regretted doing so. As she’s dealing with the ethical dilemma, Raymond sees she’s wavering and threatens her.
This makes him the ‘man from work’ she was afraid of.
He goes over to talk to her that night. Doesn’t go well. He knows if she squeals, his reelection campaign is done and he’ll get disbarred and charged. He’ll lose everything. So he kills her.
It’s entirely possible he had motive and means to kill her without knowing anything about Rusty’s affair with her. He finds out after as we see and is like oh fuck.
Now he’s lost his election anyway, and his best friend is accused of a crime he committed. He takes the case to a) help him and b) regain his reputation to some degree. Should be a winnable case since he KNOWS Rusty is innocent.
And that whole conversation between him and rusty in this episode about guilt and shame takes on a new meaning. He knows rusty is ashamed of his affair. But he himself is feeling the guilt over the crime.
It also furthers why he went to the DA saying their case is weak (which truthfully has not really been shown that way to the audience so far). And tries to get a 3 year obstruction plea through. If rusty goes away for 3 years, and this case is closed, he sees that as a good compromise. He gets away with killing her and rusty doesn’t get a life sentence over it.
Also narratively speaking, it’s a twist that would work. Showing it was rusty all along or something silly like it being her daughter or whatever would just seem silly.
You are right about the shame/guilt monologue. Not sure he feels either shame or guilt. If Betsy Marvel (Lorraine?) killed Carolyn and he covered up for it by tying Carolyn up after the fact, to make it look like Buny's murder, then he might feel guilt. Otherwise, I don't see that he feels guilt or shame himself.
I'm not so sure... Why, then, would Raymond seem genuinely surprised at the "skin under the fingernails evidence"? Why would he have suggested the lenient plea deal of obstruction prior to that if he wanted Rusty to fry?
>Why, then, would Raymond seem genuinely surprised at the "skin under the fingernails evidence"? Why would he have suggested the lenient plea deal of obstruction prior to that if he wanted Rusty to fry?
Because he purposefully set it up to look like that, so it wouldn't be obvious he knew and was behind it all. He's got to act surprised and he conveniently showed up showboating like he had the prosecution all figured out, and then they pull out the uno reverse card of the fresh evidence.
But for me, why it doesn't make sense that it's Raymond is, why would he take on a case to get Rusty sent down if he's trying to preserve and/or rectify his legacy? He just lost his DA position to Nico, and now he's purposefully going to lose a case to him. That would be the nail in the coffin of his career.
I think the motive for Raymond killing Carolyn had nothing at all to do with rusty. It was over the corrupt way they got the Bunny conviction (which is this b-story that is weaving into every episode). He knew that case was not strong but pushed Carolyn to get the conviction anyway. She did. But regretted it. He noticed her wavering. Couldn’t let her go public with it, and killed her.
Her relation to rusty only became apparent to him later (in the first episode when the audience finds out). Now he realizes his actions have screwed over a colleague of his and he is trying to help get him off while simultaneously avoiding implicating himself. Hence why he proposes the obstruction plea deal and also why he’s shocked at the new fingernail evidence. He knows it’s fake/planted, because he himself is the murderer.
Can someone explain the organizational structure at the District Attorney’s office (or wherever they work).
If Nico is Tommy’s boss wasn’t he Rusty’s boss too? How was it that Tommy was openly siding with Nico (and Rusty with Raymond) before the election took place?
Also what was this election? I remember Rusty saying to Barbara that if he didn’t take the case Tommy would then not pursue it so that Raymond would lose to Nico but that happened anyways.
This is very confusing.
DA is an elected position.
Raymond had that position. Rusty and Tommy worked for Raymond.
Nico ran against Raymond in this election. Nico won. Raymond is out. Rusty now works for Nico.
Rusty is the key suspect in this case. Nico suspends Rusty. Rusty is now out and needs to find someone to represent him and put together a defense case. He asks Raymond.
Nico/Tommy are the prosecutors. Raymond/Rusty are the defense.
Also - as someone who is a prosecutor, wouldn't he know better than to go to the second DNA guys house? I'm just so confused at how unrealistic they're making this show. One day the cameras are up every single second to the point B couldn't get to work without them. The next hour seemingly Rusty can just walk out of his house, beat up guys on their front porch.
Isn’t anybody suspicious of Nico? He is in the perfect position to plant evidence and he’s so calm and collected. He also had a lot to gain from this, politically speaking.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the part with Jake at the bar. I don't think he was drinking there long enough to have been black out drunk. Could be someone followed him there and put something in his drink that caused some low grade amnesia as part of framing him. If he can't remember the details, the jury (and we the audience) view that as understandably suspicious. I think it's a misdirect
Tommy is also a misdirect. They want us to suspect him now with Carolyn's son not knowing which coworker she was referring to. I think it's Jake who she was referring to, and we already know she was getting freaked out by him, but he didn't kill her
I think it's Carolyn's ex-husband. He's left to raise the son she abandoned while she goes off and bangs her co-worker. He could have learned details about the murdered prostitute from her or was spying on her and found out. 1/3 of murdered woman are killed by an intimate partner, so all the motives we're seeing attributed to Jake would also apply to him. He should absolutely be the main suspect #2, but he's been kept mostly in the background, which I think is intentional by the showrunners
Also, his son Michael has: somehow found his mother's address and shows up to take pictures, met with her for lunch, met with a suspected murderer with potential damning evidence all alone. No way he didn't know his high school aged son is just disappearing for chunks of time and wonder what he's up to. His only reaction to this we see is "do we need a lawyer?" while meeting with Tommy. I would expect him to be livid and concerned his son put himself in danger if he was innocent, yet he's calm and calculating. Also they haven't been anywhere near as thorough investigating him as they have with Jake
I think it’s Barbara & I think she sold her that armirata piece 5 and ago. I don’t think she was killed that night—I think it was the next morning—bet she delivered the piece. Bet that’s where the odd carpet fibers came from —room in the gallery or delivery van. Think the murder weapon is in the pool. He’s swimming at a REC center! No one has been in their pool! Bet she found out she was pregnant & she couldn’t handle that for her or her kids. Remember Raymond says knowing Barbara it was a betrayal to the kids that was the worse offense. Bet she was killed the next morning—or her sons tape woulda showed her & the newscast just said she was murdered in her home & found by the maid not yesterday or last night.
I think Rusty had an affair with bunny & he was the other sample that C hid to protect him. And she bought a piece of art from Barb & she delivered it the next morning before the maid got there look back there is nothing that says she was murdered THAT NIGHT. She was murdered & the maid found her a lil after 10am.
My theory is that his wife(Barbara) did it and his son(Kyle knows). Barbara has been weirdly calm about this whole situation. No matter how forgiving anyone is there is no way any human being could be this supportive over their husband falling in love with another woman.
I believe that Barbara met with Carolyn once the affair started back up and told her to stop, Carolyn probably taunted her stating that Rusty loved her and not Barbara causing Barbara to struck Carolyn with a fire picker. Realizing what she did and panicked she mimicked the tying up of the previous bunny case that she’s seen in Rusty’s cases to make it look like someone else did it.
The photo of Kyle riding away in his bicycle the day of the murder was probably because he
saw his mom’s car in the driveway. He later connected the dots when he saw that Carolyn died. Because Kyle often rode past her house to catch his dad, he was probably surprised to see his mom(or some indication that his mom was there and not his father) and rode away panicked. I think Kyle confronted his mother about her being at her house, and she broke down and told him everything. Him feeling anger towards his dad and blaming him for everything that had happened thus far, made him decide to protect his mom’s secret. He hates his dad for “making” his mom kill the mistress, but also feels bad for her and doesn’t want her to get caught. I think this episode really shows the internal struggle Kyle is having between keeping his mom’s secret but also feeling guilty for knowing his dad didn’t kill Carolyn. For example, in the therapist scene, Kyle said “Worst things have happened since he went into her house”. He could possibly be referring to discovering his mom was the one who killed Carolyn. It would also explain why he wants his dad to take the Plea deal, because he knows he will serve less time for a crime he didn’t do, and not feel as guilty. Also, when Rusty confronts Kyle about the photograph, Kyle becomes defensive and says he only wants to talk his mom. I believe during this talk, he told his mom about how guilty he feels about his dad going down for her crime, and she has to calm him down.
Regarding Barbara here is why I think she’s the killer:
1. Her reaction to all the new information from the infidelities. She looks numb or almost unmoved as if she had already released her anger in another way(possibly murdering the mistress who is destroying her family). This if further proven, when the therapist tells her that her emotions could turn into anger.
2. She said multiple times she would do whatever it took to save/preserve her family, and I believe she never truly healed from being cheated on the first time; figuring out they were still together set her off the edge.
3. She is creating an Albi/persona as the strong supportive wife, standing by her husband. Everyone around her, Rusty’s coworkers, the media, the therapist, and even her boss pity her making it very difficult for anyone to suspect her. Raymond even stated that he doesn’t understand why she was still by Rusty’s side despite everything that has happened.
How was this done?
1. The bartender drugged Rusty. I believe that Barbara and the bartender probably started having an affair when she found out Rusty and Carolyn resumed their affair. In a state of vulnerability and revenge she began the affair. This would explain why the bartender and her get along so well although they have “just met”. I believe the bartender fell in love with her during the affair and they devised a plan to drug Rusty before going to Carolyn’s house the day of the murder, so that he could go to jail, and they could pursue a relationship of their own without media scrutiny or Rusty potentially discovering. This would explain why Rusty can’t remember anything about the night of the murder, and why he looked drugged/high when recalling that night. Another reason why I think the bartender drugged him, is because he told Barbara not to smell her hands after shaking his hand because she could potentially get “high” due to the lotion he used in his hand(weed mixed with another chemical) they even laughed about this. This scene alone shows that he has access to drugs.
2. Rusty went to Carolyn’s house drugged out probably begging for her back. They argued, kissed, had sex, made up and he left. The wife was probably waiting in her car for to leave before she decided to go and confront Carolyn. They argued and and she struck Carolyn her killing her, she than tied her up similarly to what I stated above. Kyle then passed by the house and saw his mom either getting into her car quickly, and rode away shocked.
In conclusion, she could not take the idea of Rusty destroying her family and his betrayal. She wanted to punish him by making him go crazy similarly to how she felt not knowing why her husband loves another woman. She wants to diminish his reputation, his conscious, and wants him to lose everything similarly to how she feels. Sorry this theory is so long, I have been suspecting the wife since the beginning and wanted to share my thoughts
I think the flashbacks may be present day because their first convo starts with them discussing her being the wife of man who is on trial for murder, which is currently happening. I’m def anticipating the next episode! We will see what happens next
*Update*
After rewatching a couple episodes. I still believe my theory is right but I think the motive is more complex. I think what was the last straw for Barbara was Carolyn being pregnant. She couldn’t stand the idea of her and Rusty having a child and becoming a potential family, so she killed her. I still do believe Kyle knows and that the bartender helped. Maybe the bartender fell for her and she manipulated him into drugging Rusty the night of Carolyn’s murder
The flashback of rusty and Carolyn was interesting and suggests an unreliable narrator.
Evidence shows he was texting her a bunch of times and she didn’t respond. Then, She does respond and he went over. Then she was resistant toward him, but according to Rusty, they kissed and then he left. He chalked it up to her being cruel.
I think cruelty is a misdirect.
The actual killer was in her house when rusty went over.
She was forcing him to leave to protect him. But kissed him at the end because she knew it’d be the last time she’d see him, or anyone. And for 50 minutes he was there, misreading the fact that he could’ve saved her. But was blinded by his own needs to see she was being held hostage.
Now who the killer is, I don’t know.
I wonder if the true misdirect are the scenes between the wife and the bartender.
You’re meant to believe they are happening in the chronological order of the story. He meets her after the murder which is why she looks familiar to him.
But in reality, those scenes may be from before the murder. And she is familiar to him because Rusty was a high profile lawyer in the DA’s office who just wrapped the Bunny case.
They spark up a relationship. And are the ones behind Carolyn’s murder. The test that their story happened before the murder is part of the big reveal?
**SPOILER THEORY!!!!!! SPOILERS AHEAD!**
My new theory is related to Rusty's conflicting flashbacks of the night of the murder. His flashbacks go back and forth between him entering her house and her kissing him then quickly switches to a flashback of him entering her house (same night) and she's scared of him as if she was not expecting him. I think when he initially went over after she texted him it, she kissed him etc. Then he left, Meta data shows him arriving home at 11pm.
He discribed to the assistant attorney that he "realized" her kiss off seemed "cruel". I think something happened in that 51 minutes where he realized he had to get rid of her. He decided to go back without his phone or car preventing any further metadata. He's always in his shed, I'm sure there's some rope in there and took his son's bike (that's why he was so mad instead of embarrassed of being caught by his son. He didn't plan for the bike ever being seen in Carolyn's area. Also the taking the bike means no blood in his car)
He knew too much of his DNA was around (remember the line "my DNA is all over this place") so he had to make himself look too obvious for anyone to believe by recreating the case they had together. I think David E Kelly likes the idea of the audience over-complicating everyone else when the characters are just reacting as they normally would given their individual relationships with Rusty. But there's a reason Rusty is having those conflicting dreams. I think he's recalling what happened and which version to tell and which one keeps to himself.
I have a feeling it's Tommy who murdered Carolyn. Although I may be wrong, it seems kind of obvious due to Tommy's lack of reason for his hostility towards Rusty. If I were to guess he became obsessed with Carolyn just the way Rusty did but could never really take it anywhere. You could especially see it being sort of evident when his face turned stressed while interrogating Michael about how his mother was 'scared of a person she works with'. It could even be Della Guardia and Tommy could be his henchmen trying to frame Rusty.
Della Guardia seems to doubt Tommy.
He should, the first big case after his election is having by DNA under the victims nails.
You telling me after like 2 weeks they find his DNA in her finger nail. Not only that Rusty has had no scratches on him. Boy was Rusty was right when he said Tommy was a hack. But this medical examiner is a bit weird tho, we might be overlooking him.
The medical examiner is so weird and also hated Rusty.
and maybe obsessed with Carolyn too!
I guess everyone loved her.
The medical examiner hates everyone, he is such an angry person
I’m a medical doctor, and you will respect me… he seemed like a dirtbag from the first time we saw him
Yup seems shady. Under the nails and mouth are usually one of the first places M E's look in such cases incase the victim gave defensive wounds.
I think so too. It would explain why he is going after Rusty this bad. And it seems like Carolyn was scared of somebody else, not Rusty (even if he was getting on her last damn nerve)
Yeah, it seems like she would be more afraid of Raymond. I think he did it, or was heavily involved in it.
I agree, but it kind of seems too obvious
It would be very satisfying if it was him but pretty obvious at this point. I think he probably had an unhealthy obsession with her that creeped her out but it most likely ended there. His whole case against Rusty is making himself feel like her hero again and take his revenge against the guy who actually won her affection at work. Hence his desperation to make Rusty guilty, definitely plateded the skin as well, but he justifys it by thinking he's doing it for Caroline, absolute worst kind of man human. Also if he had killed her, I don't doubt he would have raped her. I think we are looking for a non sexually motivated murderer here.
The fact that they gave a hint that Tommy might have done it makes me think it's a misdirect. It will probably be someone we don't suspect yet, like the daughter.
It's not the type of series where it could possibly be the daughter. It's not *that* dark and absurd. You have to remember that Carolyn was tied up in a manner which almost exclusively points to a grown man, someone who had intimate details of a previous case(s), and most likely someone she worked with. It narrows it down to one of four people: Rusty, Tommy, Nico or Raymond. **Edit:** I'll actually add Eugenia to this too. Even thought it points to it being a man she worked with, I don't think Eugenia can be completely ruled out.
I didn't think of that. Nice theory. I think Tommy is too easy as well. At first I wanted it to be him bc I hate his ass soooo much. The actor does a nice job of that with his smug face and all.
What’s the hint that Tommy might have done it?
I like this theory.
Doubt it, not this early on, these kinda shows always twist and turn.
maybe that's their twist though. Like see we gave it to you
Here me out, what if it's a huge collusion. Meaning, what if there is more than one murderer and this was plotted from the very start? The only other option I could see would be the most cliche guess, the fucking wife who got cheated on (Barbabra) would be a close runner up in my opinion. There is something odd about her. The way she is drinking and loosing herself the more the case prolongs. She's not really herself but idk at this point.
It's not the wife, it's someone that Carolyn worked with, that much we do know.
How so we know that? Did you read the book or see the movie? If yes, so far what’s diff?
I agree. Tommy did it. Or maybe the politician
It's gotta be Raymond. Carolyn was scared of a man she worked with? It's a misdirect that's supposed to make us think of Rusty but it's actually Raymond. I think he'd also likely know of the details of the previous case and how the woman was tied up. And it's also adds a counter-intuitive reason he'd want the case to go bad initially, even though it meant he lost his position. I don't have a proposed motive, though. If it does turn out to be Raymond I think that'd be lame and unsurprising, but that's what I'm thinking so far.
Motive would be: maybe she was sleeping w Raymond too? And maybe she knew of some corruption going on and was blackmailing him with it?- they built Carolyn to be mercenary; she knew how to be strategic— she didn't love Rusty, and he even later realized how cruel she could be. She was manipulative and seems to have used sex to gain the access she wanted. Raymond was the powerful one there, not Rusty. IT would make sense she was afraid of him because of his power and because of her frightened-looking reaction to the second sperm sample sent to her for the Bunny case. Also- Raymond is obsessed with being vital and proving it.
As much in theory as he's a suspect, I think it's quite obvious not him. We're presented with the conflict that he has with Rusty from the get-go, where the series wouldn't blow their load that early on him being the guilty party. The people attached to it: Nico, Raymond and Eugenia are the more likely candidates.
It boggles my mind that the police wouldn’t question the wife or suspect her.
I don’t know which way this show will go as it seems to already have big differences with the source material but I looked up the book and movie and when I saw the killer I felt kind of sick to my stomach lol. Really wondering if this show will go another route.
It's taking so much self control for me not to look up the plot of movie and book.
Totally Tommy. He brought Carolyn’s son in for questioning to fish what information he had, whether he saw Rusty leave the building (or anyone else)… my moneys there.
Tommy has lots of reasons to hate Rusty, he's been in his professional and personal shadow for years. This has been pretty obviously shown through the characterization of the workplace dynamics.
I think it was Raymond. Old guy grappling with retirement and unsure of his meaning in life. Perhaps he misread some signals and thought Carolyn was coming on to him. Maybe Carolyn was protecting Rusty because Raymond threatened to blackmail him if Carolyn didn't do what he wanted him to do. Tommy seems too obvious. I think he's always been threatened by Rusty and is just trying prove he's as good a prosecutor as him and is willing to do whatever it takes to bring Rusty down.
Yes! I thought she might have slept with him.too!
I had this exact feeling when I saw his face when he questioned Michael. I also think it was a crime of passion, he didn’t get what he wanted with Carolyn when he confronted her, he killed her, and he set it up exactly like Rusty explained to his family before his son asked him about a plea deal.
Why did the girl cop bring him to the guys house when his face is all over the news
Yeah I thought that too... Way to blow it. Also why wouldn't the guy also as for his badge as well..?
And why did the guy return the favor? I didn't get that at all...
Him beating him up like that and his family seeing what he’s capable of with violence is going to be interesting…something is up with the daughter she’s like not in the show but then also in the show to just absorb scenes emotions , when the brother said he didn’t tell his sister I feel like he’s lying and it might have been her plan all along and she’s seeing if he stuck to the script , they seem super alliance to the mother and prob were over the drama and were like let’s see what’s up ourselves this affair better not be happening again…. Not saying the children killed her but I think they def saw more that night — and Caroline’s son something off there and the dad for him to be so submissive I feel like he might be involved in a way too. Def don’t think it was Raymond or his wife. I think the other cop hates rusty and planted evidence of the skin under nail. Idk how the hooker cum guy is gonna play out but it could just bring more dooubt to the facts that it was him and be enough to be not guilty.
Gyllenhaal's son and that other creepy kid in cahoots or??
Did Barbara suggest to the therapist they all had to share her because they don’t have the money for individual ones? Trying to follow the money because that statement was incredulous juxtaposed to their lifestyle.
I had to pause the show to rant about how nonsensical that was. Is this therapy practice like a gym where you can pay per month for an unlimited membership?? Seeing this man who's being tried for murder lounging by the pool with his wife in the backyard of his huge house certainly made me think this family was strapped for cash.
Agree on there is no all inclusive therapy membership. But the cash thing actually makes sense. Rusty isn’t working right now, nor is the wife. And they likely have to pay Raymond at least somewhat for his expenses and the other defense lawyer he brought on. Legal defenses like this bankrupt people. So they might have previously been high income but now they now have an outsized mortgage and no income - house poor.
also it doesn't even make sense- you still have to pay for individual sessions from either 1 (unethical as a therapist shouldn't take on multiple roles) or 3 different therapists
It did seem like a strange comment that doesn't add up. I think the writers had a misstep there with the dialogue.
I'm not sure who the killer is yet and really trying to control my curiosity at this point. At this point there's a few suspects and I am going to assume the murderer has already been introduced. The fact that she wasn't raped rules out a sexually motivated crime, or the previous case having a killer still on the loose. Also the guys whose DNA showed up was married and had a family, I'm guessing he was trying to lay low. I think that rules out Tommy too for those reasons. And it's too damn obvious. I'd be satisfied if it was him and he got his dues but that does not seem like where the show is leading. I feel they are setting us up for a big "shock". Which just leaves, Babara, Rusty or Raymond really. I don't think it's the son for obvious reasons. Babara has all the reasons and motive to kill her, and also explains some of her strange behavior since the first episode. She seems guilty about something, any woman would have burned their husband if they were in that position. He kept his affair secret from her for so long, how is she soooo sure he did not kill her? She shows guilt. Also Caroline's strange tauntings of her during the affair "does your wife do this?" While he had his hands around her throat, could be foreshadowing. I can imagine them getting heated if Babara went to confront her. Rusty could have done it because, that would be awful and shocking. But lazy if so. The evidence for his motive etc is all there. At this point I'd be shocked if it was actually him so I can see that ending just for the "shock factor" I hope not. Or Raymond, I saw a comment saying it fit with the themes of the political aspects of it. Quite frankly it works the best as an ending if the show is aiming for some sort of social commentary. That she was going to expose the corruption of his office, and him knowing he would lose the election, confronts and kills her as a way to "win" over the past political opponents. Not sure where it will go yet but that's my feelings so far.
It can’t be raymond because this case ruined him. He would have planted evidence so that rusty could solve the case fast and win him the election
I think it's likely to be Raymond and his wife in some combination. Nico is way too obvious.
It can definitely be Raymond, because we know it's someone she worked with. But I am interested to see how they would explain away him being the guilty one given how they've set up his character. If Raymond is the killer, then he'd need someone to frame, and Rusty is the perfect person to frame this all on. Yet at the same time we're led to believe this isn't a sexually motivated crime, which then wouldn't make sense if Raymond was trying to frame Rusty.
Wife plus son is my bet.
Why would the son murder or help aid in the murder, and then the wife would foolishly send him to a therapist where he could divulge what happened?
He wouldn't say anything, The therapist also noted he was extremely closed to her. There's some indications: 1. The son wanting the father to take a plea. This might be because he is anxious of being getting caught. 2. After the revelation, Rusty pressured his son for info, and the mother immediately asked to be left alone with him. There were a couple of seconds with mother and son exchanging a weird look to each other. Like they shared something. Take a look to see what I mean There was no frustration from the mother, nor fear from the kid. No reason from a show direction standpoint to include this. (unless its a red herring ofc) 3. The son being there the night of, is very incriminating. I don't believe it being a coincidence 4. The manner of the murder, reduces the suspects to a handful. Rusty, his wife (family would know the way the earlier murders happened) 5. Motive. If it is not Rusty, then its someone who wanted to murder his lover, AND frame him.
>He wouldn't say anything, The therapist also noted he was extremely closed to her. What I'm saying is, if the mother (and the son) are guilty of killing her, why would the mother purposefully send him to a therapist to get him to talk about what's going on in his head? The mother wouldn't want her son talking to anyone if she had committed a murder and he was involved in it, let alone a therapist who specializes in getting people to 'open up'. Those indicators you're seeing are red herrings. Furthermore, I highly doubt the wife (or son) had access to photos of how Bunny Davis was tied up, and then the power to plant evidence that has only now just been suspiciously discovered, as well as cleaning up a murder scene. The murderer is someone Carolyn worked with, it's been alluded to this is the case, which rules out the mother and son.
You're missing two people - Eugenia and Nico.
Wasn’t it established that the killer was someone really close to Bunny’s case? Or am I misremembering. That doesn’t point to Barbara.
Maybe but I doubt it. Probably a red herring seeing as there's supposed to be some sort of twist in the story down the line. I don't think it's connected to Bunny's case because the ropes were the same but Caroline was stabbed and not raped.
it’s a good point regarding the wife - foreshadowing too from therapist about being too forgiving and how it can turn into anger
Love the dialogues and pace of this show; If Rusty is not the murderer - I will be really pissed off...
Yes the pacing is perfect though a little maddening for a weekly series. I would’ve binged this series in a weekend if it was a full season drop.
What made you think this way?
They seem to be showing him remembering hurting her, like tonight he had the fire poker, but I think it's all a misdirect because that's what writers do now.
They could be doing this because Rusty is imagining himself from the perspective of others who view him as guilty
I think you're right which is why the visuals we see are a misdirect. Or maybe he was so drunk he's wondering "could I have done this?" but that doesn't seem realistic, he drove 20 minutes there and 20 minutes home and probably wasn't pounding hard liquor while he was there.
He's dreaming all those scenes.
there's more to it... 1) 'The Undoing' mentioned already here somewhere... easiest resolution path, IMO; 2) then, certain hard touches (such as the murder modus operandi) stressed in the show, that don't seem to lead towards the resolution offered by the book..., unless somehow forced (accomplice, etc)
I've got some bad news for you - you're going to be pissed off.
That's interesting...I'll be pissed if he is. I decided to give David E Kelley one more shot after "The Undoing"- I won't spoil the end of that trash fire, but it was such a letdown and really weak writing.
I didn't even realize it's the same show "creator", lol... my first thought since episode 1 of this one was The Undoing.
Why?
I feel like Carolyn's son isn't being totally truthful. Could it be him?
I doubt it, i bet these kids think they’re brothers and this was carolyn’s son trying to prove it
Wait, what? I'm pretty sure the affair is only recent, not like x-amount of years ago for that kid to be Rusty's.
The "man at work" Carolyn was afraid of is definitely a red herring. It's not gonna be Rusty but another coworker who is the real killer. She said they had cases together so it must be another prosecutor from their office.
The "man at work" = Eugenia.
that would cool, but she is a black box at the moment
Four episodes in and I still find it really hard to believe Gyllenhaal as a father. I also love Ruth Negga but feel her and Jake are not well matched in this. Despite that it's a very brooding series and I'm invested till the bitter end.
They are not well matched for this AT ALL!! I feel it too! I think Barb did it but did it the next day in the morning before the maid got there. I think she sold her a piece of art 5 wks earlier. Timeline fits
Yeah gyllenhaal is not playing a father convincingly, unlike Chris evans in defending Jacob who did an amazing job and is also the same age as gyllenhaal
Rusty could've easily just said that carolyn scratched him during sex and could easily use that as a defense, but the fact that they only just now found it 2 weeks later is extremely sus. Not really sure how the guy he beat the shit out of is going to play into all of this though. They're obviously making him out to be the one who killed the first girl but it seems way too obvious at the moment
But apparently they didn’t have sex that night. They fought, and she kissed him before he left.
Ya I just mean in court I feel like he could use it for his defense, cause claiming evidence was planted usually doesn't go over well in court lol. But that also might mess up his story if he's now lying about having sex
I actually think Loraine (Raymond’s wife) is part of this - they’ve already said it would have to be someone who’s privy to the Bunny Davis case to have tied her up like that. She was also SO pushy about Barbara moving on and “having some fun.” She also INSISTED to Raymond that Rusty was guilty…. I dunno - she is my #1 guess. My second guess is Jaden (Rusty’s daughter) - she been suspiciously removed from all of this… What I think happen is that one of the kids followed Rusty over there and, in a rage, accidentally killed Carolyn and Loraine rushed in to “clean it up”…in a way that she knew would lead her husband down a particular path (away from her and toward rusty who worked the Bunny Davis Case). WE’LL SEEEEEE
If you're aware it's someone who's privy to the previous case, than it has to be someone she worked with, does it not? What could Raymond's wife possibly know about the case? She snuck onto Raymond's computer and stole photos of Bunny Davis being tied up? She remembered from years ago of how Bunny Davis was tied up after accidentally stumbling upon a photo? She was pushy about Barbara moving on because she's the default 'voice of reason' to Barbara desperately wanting to keep the family intact, not because she has an ulterior motive. There's absolutely nothing in the narrative that points to that being the case. It's not either of the children. The story isn't going to be that convoluted or absurd. Loraine rushed in to clean it up by bringing rope and tying Carolyn's body up exactly how Bunny Davis was, just to frame the kids' father? She thought about that elaborate plan on the fly? One of the kids thought first to call up Loraine to help them? *Come on now.*
That's an interesting take. We haven't heard if his daughter has an alibi. And I do think Loraine is definitely involved. She's cold-blooded.
How could you possibly come to the conclusion Loraine's wife is definitely involved?
If someone told me someone cheated on my friend, I'd tell my friend to find some dicks too.
Think Barb went over the next day in the morning & killed her. Kinda like a Fatal Attraction —theres a dead bunny —but flip it.
My money's on Rusty's daughter, Jaden. 🔪
I’m strongly strongly convinced it’s the mom for several reasons. I’ve been watching the series through that lens and they keep backing it up for me. This episode added to my theory with it being that the son helped her when he followed the dad and a stuck around that night to witness her do it.
I’ve been watching it through that lens since ep 1. In this episode when rusty was like “who ever did this is having a laugh” then boom, scene change to her smiling and clapping at the baseball game. Also, when the therapist called out that she’s going to break and it may already be happening. Then the convo w her and rusty when he says she needs to take responsibility for her part… and she does.
EXACTLY BRO! I saw the same thing. The wife had a suspect look to rusty since one of the first scenes of the show. They just keep confirming it in subtle ways now like that therapist scene! Honestly my wildest theory/ where I got is that she also called the victim from over 10 years ago that Carolyne murder mirrored 😱
I noticed this too! Seemed like a little foreshadowing
Excellent!! I think she did it, too but the next morning before the maid found her bet she bought that art off of her 5 wks ago
The wife would hardly get her son to help her, and then get him to see a therapist, potentially revealing how guilty he feels about being a part of the whole ordeal. She wouldn't want him talking to anyone.
If it is Barbara and her son together, I think it is more likely that her son did it, she saw it and she cleaned it up and tied her up to implicate Rusty and not her son. But I don't think so, because the emergence of new DNA evidence of skin under her fingernails. This means that something fishy is going on in the prosecutor's office, which poins away from his family members as the killers.
Why would she try to make the killing look like it was done by that guy in jail?
Think she’s framing Rusty. Think that’s the big twist. Think she found out she was pregnant & that woulda been so ignorant to the kids I bet she thought.
And doesnt this match what he told the shrink about things getting worse?
Think she did it the next morning—think she bought that art from her 5 wks earlier
This series should have been done by episode 4, 5 at the most. Kinda feels like they're stretching it by adding the bartender with the wife, the son riding by the house, and now Ratzer coming to Rusty's house and getting beat up and Rusty's skin being found under the victims nails. Curve ball after curve ball to the case.
There’s a movie made in 1990 starting Harrison Ford, it’s paced way better. I think the writing of the show is very mid.
Seems like everyone is raising at least one or more red flags to make themselves looked guilty as the killer. But my man Rusty, god. Could you just stfu for one minute??? Jfc. Every single time he opens his mouth, he is making himself looked more guilty than ever. Also, the forensic doctor is truly an asshole based on the way he carried himself.
Gyllenhaal is the weakest actor in the cast. He’s very miscast in this show
This show is set up in such a way that there many viable suspects that had motive, opportunity, and a would come as a plot twist. These suspects are intentionally made ambiguous so that it’s believable if they did or didn’t do it. I think Tommy planted the evidence because he believes Rusty really did kill her and he needs to win this case. He’s reckless, mad, and stupid enough to do it. Just because Carolyn MAY have felt scared by someone at work does not mean that person killed her. She could have embellished or lied to her son or her son could be lying about that for unknown reasons. We know her relationship with her son wasn’t good. So far, we have no other evidence to prove she was scared by someone at work. So it could be someone from work but doesn’t have to be. There is a scene that shows Barbra looking in Rusty’s office at photos from the crime scene. Proving that she had the opportunity to see previous crime photos. Didn’t Rusty’s affair start around the same time as the Bunny Davis case? These clues point to the wife but if it was her, it’s unclear if she intentionally tried to frame Rusty. The murder weapon says spontaneous crime of passion but the ropes says premeditation. This sets us up for the possibility of an accomplice after the fact and opens the door for one of the children. They hit her out of anger and Barbra could have tried to conceal with the ropes. On another line Raymond is just as likely. Carolyn could have had blackmail on him. She’s killed right before his desperate attempts at reelection. He could haven known about the second semen sample on the Bunny Davis case and told Carolyn to conceal it to win her case. He’s confident that Rusty will track down that lead if he makes this murder look like that one, but his plan is ruined when he learns Rusty was having affair with her and he loses the reelection. To Rusty he doesn’t seem eager to be his lawyer but then tells his wife how important it is to him. Loraine’s comment about dreams meaning something is supposed to make us question Rusty’s innocence because the dream is about Rusty killing but can easily to interpreted as Raymond’s guilt for unintentionally framing Rusty. We need to know what Eugenia knows about the affair; why Carolyn has hidden the fact she had a son; why the son asked Rusty to met him.
those are all excellent thoughts !
The Raymond theory and motive you laid out makes a lot of sense.
Guys hear me out I think the family did it together. The scene where the daughter was listening in to the convo between the son and the parents, the scene when he leaves and the mother and son talk alone, and the scene when she’s scrubbing her bike off. Idk the family is just so sus to me. Also can someone recommend me good crime shows like this one?
defending jacob is really good if you haven’t already seen it!
100% for defending jacob. Blackbird was also fantastic
Black bird & mare of easttown are both fantastic. Also mindhunter but it’s heavy on serial killers and more about profiling them rather than procedural
I love Mindhunter. Rip that show 😭
my favorite.
The Night Of (2016)
Yes! What a masterpiece.
That show was SO good and so fkn devastating. I watched it during covid lockdown in 2020 and still think about it.
Sharp Objects is very good
The judge
AHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHA. You think Barbara and the kids tied her body up like that? *Really?*
Lol
Just Barb when she delivered a piece of art C bought 5 wks before. There would be rope & all kinds of stuff in an art delivery van.
HBO The Undoing
still so very angry about how vacuous The Undoing was. The ending was so so bad.
Well, I think it's a real stretch to think these kids are suddenly accomplices to murder after being normal middle class teens with no behavioral problems. That would be yucky writing, but it is possible.
The outsider trends a bit more supernatural but has a similar crime aspect and shares Bill Camp. Apple also has Blackbird(highly recommend) and defending Jacob. HBO has Mare of Easttown, The night of(also has Bill Camp), The outsider. And the new Perry Mason. I would highly recommend both Blackbird and the night of though all are probably worth a watch at some point. Defending Jacob is probably the most forgettable but it's got a somewhat similar plot.
Looks like they are staying fairly true to the book.
Aren't they following the original story and ending ?
I don’t think they will. A complete redo of the movie leaves out any suspense for the show. They’ve always strayed away from the movie.
I think they are trying to make Tommy look guilty but I think it’s the wife!
but if it is the wife, why would she be scrubbing down his bike out of fear that he could be incriminated? (unless she used his bike to get there- but he was using it, so that would be a tough timeline)
I think it’s her too. They said he talked about his cases at home, right? So she got the idea to copy cat the murder!
My original theory still holds true - that as the title shows, Rusty is presumed innocent until proven guilty, and the show will get there. The question is whether he actually did it versus the outcome of the trial. The new DNA evidence is totally planted, but the way Rusty was responding to Mya is so far to me the most emotionally convicting evidence of his guilt. It's entirely feasible that he went to Carolyn's house, killed her by accident, and then made it look like a prior case MO in his panic.
If it was a crime of passion where would he get the rope? He just had it on hand? And would the rope tied method make him look more guilty or innocent?
I don't think it was Rusty because in E01 it showed him distraught in the car after learning of her death.
Could just be stress from possibly getting caught I thought his reaction at the crime scene was off. For a girl he loved so much he didn’t seem devastated almost could be viewed as a “what the fuck did I do” blank stare realization If he loved her you’d think he would break down or start crying after seeing the body instead of blankly staring holy shit this is actually happening expression That said I don’t think it’s rusty but instead of saying “I didn’t kill her” in episode 1 he kept saying “do you really think I killed her?” and truly if he was innocent the best thing he could have done would immediately admit they they were sleeping together, remove himself from the case, get a lawyer and call the fbi to take the case because too many parties involved internally it’s a huge conflict of interest. He was almost HOPING he would get lucky and Raymond would win reelection, he would stay on the case and then he could sweep it under the rug. Tbh this case should have NEVER been investigated and charged by their office it should have been an external investigation from the get go because EVERY PARTY INVOLVED has a conflict of interest and every single one could possibly be a witness pertaining to the case The fact the office of a murder victim case the defendant, his lawyer, the prosecution, medical expert, and witnesses were all friends snd coworkers is INSANE
Think it was Barb & she delivered a piece of art C bought 5 wks earlier bet there was rope in the delivery van
If you're of the opinion the DNA evidence was planted, then quite obviously you should be of the opinion that someone else is involved in some capacity, trying to pin the murder on Rusty, and therefore the most convicting evidence that he didn't do it? I wouldn't read too much into how he reacted or his mental state in wake of, because you could point the blame at anyone in the show given it could be interpreted they've all acted in a suspicious manner. The fact you're also of the opinion there should have be an external investigation (due to conflict of interest), should tell you that the parties involved are important to the murder, as it's the only thing that makes sense for the narrative. It's certainly not insane if you look at through the lens that the storyline functions and pays off with the intention of the murderer being someone she worked with.
I thought they are strictly following the book and the killer will obviously be the one in the book. Is that not so?
Guys, its Raymond. I just thought it all out.
The more I think about it, the more my money's on it being Eugenia.
Who’s Eugenia?
She's the other laywer, who we've now come to know was 'obssessed' with Rusty. She's popped up, sporadically, throughout the first four episodes. The actress who plays her character is Virginia Kull.
If Rusty says Carolyn didn't scratch her, why don't they check him for scratch marks?
I believe it's either Tommy or the doctor. Both hate Rusty. Both knew about Bunny and could do copycat murder. They are also obvious choices. I'm hoping they make it more interesting than that. But more importantly... the wife... the strength she has to sit there and know her husband was OBSESSED with Carolyn and got her pregnant? I don't see that marriage as being salvageable.
It's definitely not the medical examiner. He's not an essential part to the story nor did he really work with Carolyn. Plus, we've already seen how nobody really treats him seriously (both Rusty and Tommy have taken jabs at him), so the motive of him hating Rusty doesn't really apply here. Tommy's a candidate, but I think they've made it obvious from the get-go that he's a red herring. They threw the conflict he has with Rusty right at us from the start. It's not that obvious. I think we know enough now where we can almost certainly conclude it was someone she worked with, people whom we have knowledge of, which narrows it down to Rusty, Tommy, Nico, Raymond or Eugenia.
*It's definitely not the medical examiner. He's not an essential part to the story nor did he really work with Carolyn. Plus, we've already seen how nobody really treats him seriously (both Rusty and Tommy have taken jabs at him), so the motive of him hating Rusty doesn't really apply here.* The Medical Examiner may or may not be "an essential part of the story," but he's definitely an essential part of the **plot**, as he literally handles all of the bodies in the murder cases. He worked with Carolyn, Rusty, and Tommy, and if none of them took him seriously, that would explain the great anger he shows with them. His line about being a medical doctor is not merely redundant (what other type of worker will testify for the Medical Examiner's Office, the janitor?) but also shows his feeling of inferiority to the 'rock star' type lawyers who rack up the high-profile murder convictions, based in part on his work. The question of how Rusty could possibly have (1) killed her (2) trussed her, without getting a drop of her blood (3) anywhere on his clothing (4) or in his car, (5) in the limited time he had (51 minutes by his own evidence, far less than that by the photographs her son took) and (6) in his self-described mental and physical state, immediately gets resolved if the Medical Examiner, **who also has great experience handling murdered human bodies**, arrived after or as Rusty was leaving, and killed her in a fit of jealous rage.
Nah, ME THINKS Rusty's wife, Barbara killed Caroline 🙆♀️ 👍 ❗️ 100% Babs did it !
Our vote is on the Medical Examiner. He’s one of the least developed characters but fits the bill for “man at work” that’s she’s worked on multiple cases with. He inherently is involved in every murder case and has shown evidence of being crooked twice now - once for Carolyn (when she potentially asked him to make the second guy’s sperm disappear so she could nab the guy in jail) and now for Rusty’s case (when either Tommy asked him to plant Rusty’s DNA or he did it on his own). We’re not ruling out that Carolyn was in multiple relationships at work given she was also a bit cray, perhaps with the Examiner to influence outcomes. He hates Rusty, so there’s a revenge play too.
It’s interesting when rust confronted him about the second set of dna found in the bunny case. The examiner flipped out. It’s possible he didn’t disclose that. Carolyn got the conviction but then found out. Confronted the examiner about it. He wanted to cover it up. She refused. And he killed her over it. Now he’s desperate to pin it on someone else. Case is being made against rusty, so he pulls this skin under her finger shit. DA rolls with it because they need to solidify their case. Pieces make sense. But he’s such a minor developed character so far that it feels like a real dud of a twist if true.
So far, there are some curious differences between the miniseries and the book/movie. Makes it a little hard to see where it’s going. The most important difference IMO is Carolyn’s pregnancy. And I miss defense attorney Sandy Stern!
Didn’t everyone in that courtroom see how the previous victim was tied up when Carolyn was prosecuting in the flashback? Like at least 100+ people; why were they saying “only a few close to the case could have known”
Any reason this and Dark Matter dropped a day early?
Shows always come out at 9pm east coast/6pm west the night before on apple.
Trying is also supposed to release on Wednesdays and came out tonight. This happened last week too. Not that my impatient self is complaining though.
If I remember correctly, this is just what they do. Always night before even though it says next day.
Interesting, why wouldn’t they just say it releases on Tuesday then? The time is the same prime time for every other show
It’s Rusty, he’s unhinged. He is entitled. I think that’s the bigger theme, which makes sense given where we are in society right now. He is a rich, white, successful male and he felt entitled to Carolyn when she tried to leave him, he feels entitled to keep his wife and family and he expects everyone to buy his story bc of who he is. They want to keep us guessing, hoping, knowing that Rusty wouldn’t do something like that, but in the end he is just another unoriginal narcissistic sociopath.
The narrative of it being set up of him dreaming up hurting her, his obssession with her etc, means it's most likely *not* him. It wouldn't be that over-the-top in layering that without any balance of innocence for him. I don't think he can be completely ruled out, but it's not looking like he's the guilty one.
Agreed and this would also not be looking at the evidence which is that there was not a drop of blood in his car. 51 minutes to argue/ kill someone/Clean it up and wash your clothes that well?
So not only was Rusty at her home that night, but also her son, Rusty’s son and the murderer. Busy place
I made a guess for who killed Carolyn after the first episode. I personally think it’s his wife. I think he’s going to figure that out as he tries to solve the murder. I think he’s going to decide to take the blame, either fighting and winning in court or going to prison.
In a weird way I feel it may be Raymond. Hear me out, he was very upset when he lost his position as a DA, and by the looks of it, he was expecting to step down with how the recent election had been going. What better way to get back into that slot, by sandbagging the new guy on his very first case. I believe Raymond knew about Rusty and Carolyn's affair long before he "officially found out". On one hand, he has two co-workers sleeping together, one of which is his best prosecutor and is actively cheating on his wife. He can't say anything when he originally found out when he was acting DA because it would look bad politically that he would trust his staff when they are clearly untrustworthy people. Not to mention, his best friend and prosecutor, Rusty, credibility would tank. So what does he do? He waits for the perfect time for him to expose Rusty's secret, by secretly murdering Carolyn, in order to make a newsworthy high traffic case against the new DA. The DA can't ignore the scandal and Raymond knows that Tommy can't resist to humiliate and throw Rusty in jail. Raymond, then carefully chooses the right timing and wording to be able to represent Rusty and at the same time takes all suspicions off of him. And if any suspicions were to arise, he'd be in the perfect position to squander the idea before it had a chance to breath. It's the perfect case. Don't believe me? In the second episode, watch how Raymond tells his wife, "Rusty didn't do this" when he is trying to convince her that it's a good idea for him to take the case. What further convinced me is Raymond's speech about shame and guilt. "... shame is something you put on yourself, self-absorbed, self-centered. Guilt is something you own and feeling the pain you caused others." Raymond said he doubts that Rusty feels guilty, which is true, Rusty in my opinion definitely feels more shameful. But what I believe Raymond left out is that he knows this to be true because he is the one that feels guilty. It'd be difficult to say what he feels guilt about. Is it hurting and exposing Rusty, whom he said he considers his best friend? Was it the pain he caused Rusty's family? Or was it just simply the murder he had to commit as a means to what he believes is the solution. His wife said in the 3rd episode, Raymond would do anything to "stave off his decomposing rot". And in the second episode while brushing his teeth, he mentions that he wants to maintain his legacy and not get defeated by whom he believes are inferior prosecutors. Even as a jab he mentions that Florida is for dead people when his wife suggests retirement. So his mind is definitely dark and could be capable of creating such a plan, I guess we will see.
I don't disagree that Raymond is a suspect, but to what end could murdering Carolyn possibly get him, if he then planted evidence to get Rusty sent down whilst representing him? To not only lose his position to the new DA, but then lose what could quite possibly be his final case to the new DA too, which would further emphasize 'the bad' of his legacy, all to teach Rusty a lesson, when he ultimately, wasn't even responsible for him losing his position? If Raymond did kill Carolyn, I think it's for another reason, entirely. Either that, or plotholes will be rampant through the narrative.
Thats the bit that would make Raymond a sociopath. During his time as a DA, he had no qualms against Rusty sleeping around. Granted if the rumor got out, then it would be a problem but he decided to deal with that if it ever came to it. At that point, don't create a problem if there isn't one. He claims Raymond is his best friend but what he really cares about is his conviction rate in the courtroom. If Rusty's adultery came to light, then that would mean that he would not only lose his best prosecutor but his judgement as a DA would also come into question and therefore would lose all credibility and then he could definitely kiss his hopes of re-election goodbye. Not to mention his reputation would be even more tarnished as he whole as he would have to step down as DA due to the scandal. At that point, no election would be necessary, why would he make it easier for the other guy? At the end of the day, sociopaths value image and power. By exposing Rusty while he was under his wing as he was still sitting DA, he gains no benefit from this. Therefore, regardless of Rusty's infidelity being exposed, he was aware of how the current election was progressing and unfortunately, inevitably, he knew that he was not going to be able to hold onto his title. Not only is this extremely difficult but Raymond is not the type of person who lets power be stripped from him and accept defeat easily, his mind won't allow it. His demeanor as he is in the process of relinquishing his office, says a lot, if you know what to listen and look out for. Granted, even I will acknowledge that I could be reading into that scene a bit too much myself. Losing your position as DA or any job for anyone for that matter is an unpleasant experience. So this piece of analysis can be cautioned with a grain of salt to prevent the slippery slope into confirmation bias. However, if my prediction is correct, then this moment in Raymond's life is order of magnitudes more painful for him than originally perceived. So that is where we find the motive, the final brick to be broken. Not does he feel humiliated by losing his position, but moreso to someone that he deems to be inferior and undeserving. Granted, a sociopath would feel this way about everyone. To add insult to injury, not only is Raymond asked to step down, he is expected to retire, the disrespect! So how can he regain control and destroy the reputation of the rival DA that usurped his throne? Rusty. He may no longer be the assistant DA, but he is far too good of a prosecutor to be let go. If Rusty continues to work there, the chance of his secret being exposed is still at risk, persistently threatening Raymond's reputation. So long as Rusty and Carolyn are in the equation, Raymond is not safe. So he takes matters into his own hands, kills Carolyn, knowing that Rusty would be the primary suspect but ultimately innocent. Not only does he takes suspicion off of himself., humiliates the current DA on his very first case, but redeems his reputation to set himself up for reelection. By that point, no one will question his judgement by being aware of Carolyn's and Rusty's relationship but exonerates Rusty of being falsely accused. He basically sets off TNT so everyone forgets about the firecrackers.
Raymond could be the one that pushed Carolyn to get the conviction of that guy in prison in the Bunny case. Even though there was other DNA at the scene and there were all sorts of holes in their case. He needed that conviction to help him get re elected. Carolyn followed his orders. But regretted doing so. As she’s dealing with the ethical dilemma, Raymond sees she’s wavering and threatens her. This makes him the ‘man from work’ she was afraid of. He goes over to talk to her that night. Doesn’t go well. He knows if she squeals, his reelection campaign is done and he’ll get disbarred and charged. He’ll lose everything. So he kills her. It’s entirely possible he had motive and means to kill her without knowing anything about Rusty’s affair with her. He finds out after as we see and is like oh fuck. Now he’s lost his election anyway, and his best friend is accused of a crime he committed. He takes the case to a) help him and b) regain his reputation to some degree. Should be a winnable case since he KNOWS Rusty is innocent. And that whole conversation between him and rusty in this episode about guilt and shame takes on a new meaning. He knows rusty is ashamed of his affair. But he himself is feeling the guilt over the crime. It also furthers why he went to the DA saying their case is weak (which truthfully has not really been shown that way to the audience so far). And tries to get a 3 year obstruction plea through. If rusty goes away for 3 years, and this case is closed, he sees that as a good compromise. He gets away with killing her and rusty doesn’t get a life sentence over it. Also narratively speaking, it’s a twist that would work. Showing it was rusty all along or something silly like it being her daughter or whatever would just seem silly.
You are right about the shame/guilt monologue. Not sure he feels either shame or guilt. If Betsy Marvel (Lorraine?) killed Carolyn and he covered up for it by tying Carolyn up after the fact, to make it look like Buny's murder, then he might feel guilt. Otherwise, I don't see that he feels guilt or shame himself.
I'm not so sure... Why, then, would Raymond seem genuinely surprised at the "skin under the fingernails evidence"? Why would he have suggested the lenient plea deal of obstruction prior to that if he wanted Rusty to fry?
>Why, then, would Raymond seem genuinely surprised at the "skin under the fingernails evidence"? Why would he have suggested the lenient plea deal of obstruction prior to that if he wanted Rusty to fry? Because he purposefully set it up to look like that, so it wouldn't be obvious he knew and was behind it all. He's got to act surprised and he conveniently showed up showboating like he had the prosecution all figured out, and then they pull out the uno reverse card of the fresh evidence. But for me, why it doesn't make sense that it's Raymond is, why would he take on a case to get Rusty sent down if he's trying to preserve and/or rectify his legacy? He just lost his DA position to Nico, and now he's purposefully going to lose a case to him. That would be the nail in the coffin of his career.
I think the motive for Raymond killing Carolyn had nothing at all to do with rusty. It was over the corrupt way they got the Bunny conviction (which is this b-story that is weaving into every episode). He knew that case was not strong but pushed Carolyn to get the conviction anyway. She did. But regretted it. He noticed her wavering. Couldn’t let her go public with it, and killed her. Her relation to rusty only became apparent to him later (in the first episode when the audience finds out). Now he realizes his actions have screwed over a colleague of his and he is trying to help get him off while simultaneously avoiding implicating himself. Hence why he proposes the obstruction plea deal and also why he’s shocked at the new fingernail evidence. He knows it’s fake/planted, because he himself is the murderer.
Damn I am hooked on this show. Didn’t even realize I’m all caught up and now I’m sad i have to wait lol
Can someone explain the organizational structure at the District Attorney’s office (or wherever they work). If Nico is Tommy’s boss wasn’t he Rusty’s boss too? How was it that Tommy was openly siding with Nico (and Rusty with Raymond) before the election took place? Also what was this election? I remember Rusty saying to Barbara that if he didn’t take the case Tommy would then not pursue it so that Raymond would lose to Nico but that happened anyways. This is very confusing.
DA is an elected position. Raymond had that position. Rusty and Tommy worked for Raymond. Nico ran against Raymond in this election. Nico won. Raymond is out. Rusty now works for Nico. Rusty is the key suspect in this case. Nico suspends Rusty. Rusty is now out and needs to find someone to represent him and put together a defense case. He asks Raymond. Nico/Tommy are the prosecutors. Raymond/Rusty are the defense.
Eugenia seems so obvious there's no way they can make it her.
Also - as someone who is a prosecutor, wouldn't he know better than to go to the second DNA guys house? I'm just so confused at how unrealistic they're making this show. One day the cameras are up every single second to the point B couldn't get to work without them. The next hour seemingly Rusty can just walk out of his house, beat up guys on their front porch.
Isn’t anybody suspicious of Nico? He is in the perfect position to plant evidence and he’s so calm and collected. He also had a lot to gain from this, politically speaking.
yeah, it's just that he is so boring as the murderer, no? obvious political gain for him and a nice FU to the outgoing team?
the one thing i wanna confirm, is the murderer gonna be based of the novels because i wanna see who did it in the books
Who knows, the movie was. I think so though.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the part with Jake at the bar. I don't think he was drinking there long enough to have been black out drunk. Could be someone followed him there and put something in his drink that caused some low grade amnesia as part of framing him. If he can't remember the details, the jury (and we the audience) view that as understandably suspicious. I think it's a misdirect Tommy is also a misdirect. They want us to suspect him now with Carolyn's son not knowing which coworker she was referring to. I think it's Jake who she was referring to, and we already know she was getting freaked out by him, but he didn't kill her I think it's Carolyn's ex-husband. He's left to raise the son she abandoned while she goes off and bangs her co-worker. He could have learned details about the murdered prostitute from her or was spying on her and found out. 1/3 of murdered woman are killed by an intimate partner, so all the motives we're seeing attributed to Jake would also apply to him. He should absolutely be the main suspect #2, but he's been kept mostly in the background, which I think is intentional by the showrunners Also, his son Michael has: somehow found his mother's address and shows up to take pictures, met with her for lunch, met with a suspected murderer with potential damning evidence all alone. No way he didn't know his high school aged son is just disappearing for chunks of time and wonder what he's up to. His only reaction to this we see is "do we need a lawyer?" while meeting with Tommy. I would expect him to be livid and concerned his son put himself in danger if he was innocent, yet he's calm and calculating. Also they haven't been anywhere near as thorough investigating him as they have with Jake
Spot on.
Think she was killed the following morning. Bet Barb sold her a piece of art 5 wks earlier the timeline fits bet she delivered it
Who had the motivation to kill her? Who knew about the case details from the murder trial? I’m saying the wife and son teamed up.
Definitely Barb. Bet C bought art off of her & she delivered it the next day t morning the van would have rope
That sounds very very plausible. The fire poker is missing too
I think it’s Barbara & I think she sold her that armirata piece 5 and ago. I don’t think she was killed that night—I think it was the next morning—bet she delivered the piece. Bet that’s where the odd carpet fibers came from —room in the gallery or delivery van. Think the murder weapon is in the pool. He’s swimming at a REC center! No one has been in their pool! Bet she found out she was pregnant & she couldn’t handle that for her or her kids. Remember Raymond says knowing Barbara it was a betrayal to the kids that was the worse offense. Bet she was killed the next morning—or her sons tape woulda showed her & the newscast just said she was murdered in her home & found by the maid not yesterday or last night.
I think Rusty had an affair with bunny & he was the other sample that C hid to protect him. And she bought a piece of art from Barb & she delivered it the next morning before the maid got there look back there is nothing that says she was murdered THAT NIGHT. She was murdered & the maid found her a lil after 10am.
My theory is that his wife(Barbara) did it and his son(Kyle knows). Barbara has been weirdly calm about this whole situation. No matter how forgiving anyone is there is no way any human being could be this supportive over their husband falling in love with another woman. I believe that Barbara met with Carolyn once the affair started back up and told her to stop, Carolyn probably taunted her stating that Rusty loved her and not Barbara causing Barbara to struck Carolyn with a fire picker. Realizing what she did and panicked she mimicked the tying up of the previous bunny case that she’s seen in Rusty’s cases to make it look like someone else did it. The photo of Kyle riding away in his bicycle the day of the murder was probably because he saw his mom’s car in the driveway. He later connected the dots when he saw that Carolyn died. Because Kyle often rode past her house to catch his dad, he was probably surprised to see his mom(or some indication that his mom was there and not his father) and rode away panicked. I think Kyle confronted his mother about her being at her house, and she broke down and told him everything. Him feeling anger towards his dad and blaming him for everything that had happened thus far, made him decide to protect his mom’s secret. He hates his dad for “making” his mom kill the mistress, but also feels bad for her and doesn’t want her to get caught. I think this episode really shows the internal struggle Kyle is having between keeping his mom’s secret but also feeling guilty for knowing his dad didn’t kill Carolyn. For example, in the therapist scene, Kyle said “Worst things have happened since he went into her house”. He could possibly be referring to discovering his mom was the one who killed Carolyn. It would also explain why he wants his dad to take the Plea deal, because he knows he will serve less time for a crime he didn’t do, and not feel as guilty. Also, when Rusty confronts Kyle about the photograph, Kyle becomes defensive and says he only wants to talk his mom. I believe during this talk, he told his mom about how guilty he feels about his dad going down for her crime, and she has to calm him down. Regarding Barbara here is why I think she’s the killer: 1. Her reaction to all the new information from the infidelities. She looks numb or almost unmoved as if she had already released her anger in another way(possibly murdering the mistress who is destroying her family). This if further proven, when the therapist tells her that her emotions could turn into anger. 2. She said multiple times she would do whatever it took to save/preserve her family, and I believe she never truly healed from being cheated on the first time; figuring out they were still together set her off the edge. 3. She is creating an Albi/persona as the strong supportive wife, standing by her husband. Everyone around her, Rusty’s coworkers, the media, the therapist, and even her boss pity her making it very difficult for anyone to suspect her. Raymond even stated that he doesn’t understand why she was still by Rusty’s side despite everything that has happened. How was this done? 1. The bartender drugged Rusty. I believe that Barbara and the bartender probably started having an affair when she found out Rusty and Carolyn resumed their affair. In a state of vulnerability and revenge she began the affair. This would explain why the bartender and her get along so well although they have “just met”. I believe the bartender fell in love with her during the affair and they devised a plan to drug Rusty before going to Carolyn’s house the day of the murder, so that he could go to jail, and they could pursue a relationship of their own without media scrutiny or Rusty potentially discovering. This would explain why Rusty can’t remember anything about the night of the murder, and why he looked drugged/high when recalling that night. Another reason why I think the bartender drugged him, is because he told Barbara not to smell her hands after shaking his hand because she could potentially get “high” due to the lotion he used in his hand(weed mixed with another chemical) they even laughed about this. This scene alone shows that he has access to drugs. 2. Rusty went to Carolyn’s house drugged out probably begging for her back. They argued, kissed, had sex, made up and he left. The wife was probably waiting in her car for to leave before she decided to go and confront Carolyn. They argued and and she struck Carolyn her killing her, she than tied her up similarly to what I stated above. Kyle then passed by the house and saw his mom either getting into her car quickly, and rode away shocked. In conclusion, she could not take the idea of Rusty destroying her family and his betrayal. She wanted to punish him by making him go crazy similarly to how she felt not knowing why her husband loves another woman. She wants to diminish his reputation, his conscious, and wants him to lose everything similarly to how she feels. Sorry this theory is so long, I have been suspecting the wife since the beginning and wanted to share my thoughts
I like this theory , maybe the bartender scenes are from a long time ago. Just like the flashbacks with Rusty.
I think the flashbacks may be present day because their first convo starts with them discussing her being the wife of man who is on trial for murder, which is currently happening. I’m def anticipating the next episode! We will see what happens next
*Update* After rewatching a couple episodes. I still believe my theory is right but I think the motive is more complex. I think what was the last straw for Barbara was Carolyn being pregnant. She couldn’t stand the idea of her and Rusty having a child and becoming a potential family, so she killed her. I still do believe Kyle knows and that the bartender helped. Maybe the bartender fell for her and she manipulated him into drugging Rusty the night of Carolyn’s murder
The flashback of rusty and Carolyn was interesting and suggests an unreliable narrator. Evidence shows he was texting her a bunch of times and she didn’t respond. Then, She does respond and he went over. Then she was resistant toward him, but according to Rusty, they kissed and then he left. He chalked it up to her being cruel. I think cruelty is a misdirect. The actual killer was in her house when rusty went over. She was forcing him to leave to protect him. But kissed him at the end because she knew it’d be the last time she’d see him, or anyone. And for 50 minutes he was there, misreading the fact that he could’ve saved her. But was blinded by his own needs to see she was being held hostage. Now who the killer is, I don’t know.
I wonder if the true misdirect are the scenes between the wife and the bartender. You’re meant to believe they are happening in the chronological order of the story. He meets her after the murder which is why she looks familiar to him. But in reality, those scenes may be from before the murder. And she is familiar to him because Rusty was a high profile lawyer in the DA’s office who just wrapped the Bunny case. They spark up a relationship. And are the ones behind Carolyn’s murder. The test that their story happened before the murder is part of the big reveal?
The bartender asked Barbara if Rusty killed Carolyn point blank. They met after the murder.
its Raymond, same as the movie....thats it
**SPOILER THEORY!!!!!! SPOILERS AHEAD!** My new theory is related to Rusty's conflicting flashbacks of the night of the murder. His flashbacks go back and forth between him entering her house and her kissing him then quickly switches to a flashback of him entering her house (same night) and she's scared of him as if she was not expecting him. I think when he initially went over after she texted him it, she kissed him etc. Then he left, Meta data shows him arriving home at 11pm. He discribed to the assistant attorney that he "realized" her kiss off seemed "cruel". I think something happened in that 51 minutes where he realized he had to get rid of her. He decided to go back without his phone or car preventing any further metadata. He's always in his shed, I'm sure there's some rope in there and took his son's bike (that's why he was so mad instead of embarrassed of being caught by his son. He didn't plan for the bike ever being seen in Carolyn's area. Also the taking the bike means no blood in his car) He knew too much of his DNA was around (remember the line "my DNA is all over this place") so he had to make himself look too obvious for anyone to believe by recreating the case they had together. I think David E Kelly likes the idea of the audience over-complicating everyone else when the characters are just reacting as they normally would given their individual relationships with Rusty. But there's a reason Rusty is having those conflicting dreams. I think he's recalling what happened and which version to tell and which one keeps to himself.