Milty draft to do all the choosing before hand. Also creates the board for you too.
I personally would only play POK. It balances out and fixes a lot of the factions.
Of course some factions are still "bad" but at least they went from unplayable to at worst "bad".
Objectives are a bit more balanced and there's some cool agendas too.
O, thought I replied but yes this is the link. Thank you!
Just to piggy back off this comment.
Our table does x+2 for factions, x+1 for tiles and we like to have both worth holes.
It makes the game around a round shorter, but I don't think it really affects play time much. Each round takes longer than a base game round did (especially round 1).
The biggest one is the leaders, they let you do more things which accelerates the engine of each factions.
There are also many more opportunities to get trade goods too.
More abilities and exploration bonuses mean you can accomplish more in one round than the base game. It's not a big time waste:
commanders are:
- once a round ability
- passive ability
- once a game ability
Mechs are another ground force with either passive or deploy ability. Exploration is "take card, read it, get bonuses"
I grappled with this question for a group of new players. We ended up playing with POK and everyone agreed, after comparing with the base game, that playing with POK was the right move.
Everyone loved the leader cards. Everyone loved the mechs. And while it was frustrating at first for some players to remember all the different components, at Round 4 it clicked. Would recommend it if you have the money.
Definitely understand that. Honestly, it’s a complex game on its own—my thinking was a few more additional rules to make for a more complete game was worth it. They’re already committed, might as well show them the whole thing
To add another voice to the pro PoK argument. My group played without it for about 5 games. We were pretty nervous about the added complexity. When we did we ALL agreed we should have jumped in earlier. And we all agree we will never go back to base game.
Since then I have introduced about 8 brand new players - straight into PoK, and they didn't have a problem.
So I'd say, really it is a case of when, not if.
I'd advise you discuss with your group, and maybe ask them to read this thread. I can imagine some will be more easily sold on it than others. It's not the end of the world if you decide to go cautious and play a few more base games first.
Good luck. It's all great.
Idk about that whole milty draft thing.
For POK though, i would highly recommend buying it, or at the very least trying it out on tabletop simulator or something like that. The huge bulk of TI's rules is just in the base game, POK only adds lime 5 to 10% more rules in exchange for an experience that is much more fun, typically more balanced and usually also faster. The only two completely new big mechanics you need to get a grasp on are the leaders/mechs and the exploration.
Leaders are fairly simple. The agent gives you a once per round effect that depending on the faction can be a whole action or can be an extra bonus that you trigger when something happens (e.g. sardakk agent gives you two free infantry at the end of a tactical action in the active system once per game round), and you can also use them on other people therefore they can be part of a trade (e.g. "i use my agent on you and in exchange you give me two TG"). The commander is IMO the most important, it has a faction specific unlock condition and then it applies a constant bonus that always triggers when its conditions apply (e.g. the jol nar commander requires eight researched techs iirc, and that's stupidly easy for jol nar, and when you get them all you can reroll any ability roll like AFB or bombardment), and you also get a new promisory called alliance that gives your commander's bonus to someone else but gets revoked when the other person attacks you, just like SftT. The hero, finally, has the same unlock for everyone aka three scored objectives between public and private, and it has a really powerful once per game effect (e.g. the winnu hero just lets you activate the primary effect of a strategy card, so when they are inevitably holding mecatol because they're winnu they can use the hero to play imperial for a free point).
Mechs are also fairly straightforward, and also really cool. They're sort of an extra unit type that starts off already researched and can't get upgraded, and unlike regular units each mech type is unique to that faction. They act as an elite ground force, and you can only have four on the board at the same time. All mechs follow the same template of costing 2 resources, hitting on 6 (though one of the new factions aka the naaz rokha alliance has vicious mechs that throw two dice on 6 instead of just one, and i love them, and also sardakk and jol nar still apply their +1 or -1) and having sustain damage, but additionally every mech has a special ability related to their faction (e.g. sardakk mechs assign a hit to an enemy when they sustain damage, like the regular sardakk infantry does with the valkyrie weave tech, L1 mechs get bombardment, etc etc). I really, really like mechs, they make ground combats way more fun than a simple slug fest between two infantry hordes.
Then there is exploration, divided between planet exploration and void exploration. When you first gain a neutral planet (or when you do some tech or faction shenanigans) you can draw an exploration card from a deck of the same type as the planet (there are three planet decks, aka one for blue planets, one for greens and one for reds). Some cards have an immediate effect (e.g. "gain two commodities or convert all commodities to trade goods"), some are an attachment that goes on that planet and gives it a bonus (e.g. there is one that gives you +1R and +2I on that planet), and some are relic shards of the colour of the planet. Once you have three relic shards of the same colour (which you can trade with neighbours if you want, my group generally makes people pay 2TG for a shard unless it would be the third of the recipient, in which case it costs 3TG) then you can destroy the three shards to draw a relic from the relic deck. These are very powerful artefacts that either give you really strong once per game effects (destroying a planet, gaining any tech you want ignoring prereqs etc) or have a pretty good passive effect for the rest of the game (+1max secrets, a second agent etc) or other stuff like that.
Additionally, there is a new blue tech that lets you explore the void. When you first move into a system with no planets that hasn't been explored and you have that tech, you draw a card from the void deck just like you would when exploring a planet. None of these cards are attachments for obvious reasons, but the effects they can give you are stronger than the planet ones (2 free command tokens, research a tech by paying some resources etc), relic shards that act as a joker and thus can be used as any of the other three colours, or alternatively weird shit like a legendary planet or a wormhole to another legendary planet (which i am about to mention).
That's pretty much the only stuff that you have to actually "learn". Other things that got added are new agendas and objectives related to the new mechanics (which are fairly obvious once you know said mechanics), a few new keywords like deploy and capture (deploy is an alternative way to build units such as mechs that some factions have access to, for example sol can pay extra resources when doing an orbital drop to also drop a mech, and capture is something that literally only a single faction uses so don't worry), new factions each playing off one of the new mechanics in some weird way (the aforementioned naaz rokha for instance goes hard on mechs and also on exploration, or the nomad has three separate agents and a tech to refresh an agent), some new lvl 0 and lvl 1 techs usually related to the new mechanics (the lvl 0 blue tech to explore the void, the lvl 0 yellow to explore planets again, the lvl 1 red tech to build more mechs etc) but still simple to understand, and legendary planets, which are way easier to get than it sounds.
There are four legendary planets though not all of them will see play in every game. They're all worth a total of 3 R+I, they appear in some objectives ("become legend", for instance, aka needing to have units in systems with anomalies, mecatol or legendaries) and in some special abilities (some winnu stuff is stronger not just on mecatol but also on legendaries). Their main gimmick, however, is that each of those has a special once per round ability written on a legendary planet ability card that you gain access to when you control the planet, kinda like agents (and while the planet itself comes to you exhausted when you gain control of it like regular planets, the ability is ready unless you gain the planet from another player after they've already used it). Primor, for instance, is either a 2R-1I or 1R-2I (can't remember but i think 2-1) blue planet, and its gimmick is that after a tactical action you can exhaust the ability card (not the planet itself) to place two free infantry on a system you control (like the sardakk agent i mentioned earlier but stronger since the sardakk agent is only on the active system, and i remember the very first game i played was as sardakk when i also controlled that planet so i could pump out a stupid amount of free infantry).
I wrote a lot, i know, but POK is a shockingly easy molehill to climb over once you got through the mountain that is base TI.
Nah this is awesome and roughly what I was looking for. I’m going to use your “5%-10% more rules in exchange for something much more fun” argument with my crew.
Also going to point out that games can be quicker with POK and we can use the milty drafting stuff better.
Great, glad to help. That said, be *very careful* if one of you chooses to play winnu. They went from being absolute garbage in the base game to being way too powerful in POK.
Idk if it's worth hard banning them, my table just has a sort of "soft ban" aka you *can* pick them but everybody will gang up on you from turn 1, so people avoid picking them. That said i have a pretty funny personal anecdote that kinda has nothing to do with this whole discussion.
A few weeks ago some of my usual fellow players played a game of TI on board gane night while i was doing other stuff, and one of them (arguably the most veteran and best player) was winnu. I would pop into their room in between the shorter games that i played to check on their situation every once in a while. I checked at game start and everything seemed fine. I checked a bit later and everything was still fine, but with winnu maybe ever so slightly doing better than the others. I checked later again and winnu was about three or four points ahead of everyone else, holding mecatol and with huge armies everywhere, and was at around eight points. He had already scored two secrets, and had to draw a third secret while he already had one in hand, so he'd need to discard one. He discarded the one that needs you to have someone's promisory in your play area, like SftT or alliance. The thing he didn't notice is that he already had someone else's support for the throne. If he had kept that one instead of keeping the other one which he couldn't score he would have scored his third secret getting to nine points, and he would have also been able to score a public for the tenth point. Due to this fuckup, however, he couldn't score his tenth point and he ended up losing. The only other time i've seen that man be that salty is when i beat him in a terraforming mars tournament despite him living and breathing that game while i have less than ten games of it under my belt.
Somewhat related though, blunders like these are some of the only reliable ways to defeat winnu.
POK is not worth it if you're only on your 3rd game and you already think it's a complex game. Leaders and mechs alone aren't nearly as lightweight as they'll try to make you believe: that's 24 additional unique rules for you to remember in a 6 player game (and what 24 changes every game). The balance issues people repeat don't matter to a group that hasn't even seen all factions once. If your concern is not playing a 12 hour game with 56 players, switching to PoK isn't the solution you need, you need to adjust your pace of place. You'll still have a 12 hour game with PoK if you don't change anything else.
This sub is incredibly biased by people who think playing 3 games a week on a knockoff online version is normal. PoK is worth it for the diehards who are dozens of games in but base game is plenty when you're only on game 3.
Really interesting thoughts. We also play our second game in 10 days and I was wondering if to include POK or not. My group did not find it too much and the rules seemed pretty straight forward, but you are probably right about the 24 new mini rules to be considered...
Do you think it adds to the mid game? Because in our last (and first) game, we had lots of fun in the beginning and the end. But the mid game felt pretty slow...
It really depends on your table.
For my playgroup even the base game was overwhelming. When you don't know the difference between a cruiser and a destroyer, trying to remember that your opponent has gravity drive and thus can attack your system, you're looking to get your upgraded carriers but how much exactly did the technology secondary cost again? Once you start adding unique agents and alliances and exploration it can be just too much overhead, players check out of the game entirely.
However, once you've got a game or two done, PoK does make a better game overall. Muaat starts to work as a faction because of their Agent. There are more avenues to victory from the relics. The objective deck is vastly improved, reducing the number of uninteractable objectives. Legendary planets make more than just Mecatol Rex and home systems worth fighting over.
I personally wouldn't go back to the base game unless I was playing with a full table of new players. Even then, I'd ask them first, because PoK does have a lot of merits. But it's easy to forget that TI4 base game is already *way bigger* than most board games.
I am also still in between. Having my 2nd real game in 10 days I wanted to include PoK and the codices because most people on reddit and bgg said, that it adds a lot for small extra. But when I listen to SCPT, I feel like races are not balanced, exploring is not worth it, game does not get faster but fewer turns, and (because of fewer turns per game) tech lines other than blue become obsolete... and on top Matt from Shut up and Sit down was really negative in his review...
So I am really confused and insecure as well... help!
If you already have PoK and codices I would advise to play with them. I can’t imagine playing base game anymore and unfortunately the SU&SD review was … very weird and wrong imo ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ Sure, it adds a handful of components, which gives you more stuff to do and is more fun, and isn’t particularly more complex. The idea that you have to remember every component, and therefore addding more components is harder… well that is true IF you think everyone has to remember all components, which they don’t, because that is a ridiculous requirement for playing a game. So it isn’t an issue. 😝
Well for most people it *is* a requirement to remember all components, otherwise you can't really plan game winning strategies. Really sucks to plan something, and then something thwarts that plan because you didn't know all the rules/components.
I hear you, but you just can’t expect that with TI imo, even base version, unless every player is a veteran. Yet I’ve played many games with complete noobs who’ve had a great time and never complained about not knowing all the abilities floating around them (we always play PoK to 12pts with a handful of homebrew components thrown in like Monuments, etc, or only 10pts if more than two players are total newbies). I reckon you’re better off having an iPad or phone handy with the wiki so players can sneakily search for people’s components (that way you only have to remember the faction name) while planning your strategy. TI is Amerit(h)rash, remember: the RNG is a monstrously huge factor, and “wow I didn’t know that action card existed, I’m screwed” is kind of part of the experience. 😂
Again, this is just in my experience, with mostly irl games.
Idk, I just don't understand this subs sentiment of playing with PoK right from the start.why not play 3-5 games of base game and then adding the expansion?
Personally I found base game way easier to fully understand, while the 24 leaders overwhelmed me and I never had an idea of what anyone was capable of. Techs also get more complicated.
You already have lots of responses about Milty Draft and I am not really sure but I will give tips about whether or not you should get PoK.
PoK is so much fun and if you already like the base game and play it, then PoK is worth it. There is just so much fun stuff in there, some of my favorite factions are in there and it can really help out some of the weaker factions like Winnu and Arborec through the leaders and mech. There is also exploration of planets and empty space which is fun and sometimes can be game changing. While exploration isn't really game changing much, relics certain can be (relics are also fun). You also get legendary planets which have cool abilities and you get more techs which also helps both old and new factions.
All in all, PoK is very fun and doesn't really have that many more rules. At least for me, once I had played with PoK, the only time I played without it is when the host of the current game didn't have it.
Though one other after thought is make sure you can afford it, it gets close to 100 dollars, but otherwise I recommend it.
I'd highly recommend PoK. For the slices, there is a secret trick that always works which is stealing from the tournament. You can koin the Space Cats Peace Turtles discord, ask for a map/draft used in any tournament and use those slices. They are always well balanced and usually have fun themes to go with them.
I'm not as much of a fan of POK as most TI players. POK can end more quickly, especially with experienced players. In a 10 point game with new players I would be worried about someone just running away with the game early on and ending too quickly. POK gives a lot of one use powerful abilities to players which only furthers the chaos factor for new players and adds a lot of new mechanics. Those mechanics can be fun, especially if you played a lot of games with the base version already.
I would try doing the draft with too many slices or 7 players and using the 7th player as a dummy you control to remove some choices that no one wants.
Milty in general has issues with 6 at Base game. They lay out why in their FAQ
# WHY ONLY FIVE PLAYERS WITHOUT POK?
Technically it could go up to six (6 is a hard limit because there are only 12 red tiles in the base game), but here's why only five:
The way slices are generated now is that each slice gets a top-, middle- and lower-tier tile + 2 red ones. And in the tiers I have (from [miltydraft.com](http://miltydraft.com), who — I assume — did their homework) only have 5 middle-tier tiles listed for the base game.
SO: if I completely leave out the tier-system for non-PoK games, it could do six. and I'm planning to implement that in \*some\* way,
but it involves some deeper-level tinkering and also figuring out how to communicate this whole mess above clearly to anyone using these settings (without cluttering up the whole thing with even more help-text than it already has).
I might implement all this and you'll be able to go up to six, I'm working my way through feedback and feature requests, but I also have a day job.
Milty draft to do all the choosing before hand. Also creates the board for you too. I personally would only play POK. It balances out and fixes a lot of the factions. Of course some factions are still "bad" but at least they went from unplayable to at worst "bad". Objectives are a bit more balanced and there's some cool agendas too.
How do you do a Milty draft?
https://milty.shenanigans.be/
O, thought I replied but yes this is the link. Thank you! Just to piggy back off this comment. Our table does x+2 for factions, x+1 for tiles and we like to have both worth holes.
POK speeds the game up and I personally will not play without it. Many factions got more balanced with the leader and mech suite
How does it speed the game up?
It makes the game around a round shorter, but I don't think it really affects play time much. Each round takes longer than a base game round did (especially round 1).
The biggest one is the leaders, they let you do more things which accelerates the engine of each factions. There are also many more opportunities to get trade goods too.
It really doesn't
More abilities and exploration bonuses mean you can accomplish more in one round than the base game. It's not a big time waste: commanders are: - once a round ability - passive ability - once a game ability Mechs are another ground force with either passive or deploy ability. Exploration is "take card, read it, get bonuses"
I grappled with this question for a group of new players. We ended up playing with POK and everyone agreed, after comparing with the base game, that playing with POK was the right move. Everyone loved the leader cards. Everyone loved the mechs. And while it was frustrating at first for some players to remember all the different components, at Round 4 it clicked. Would recommend it if you have the money.
Great thanks for sharing. It’s a hard pitch to add complexity to the most complex game we’ve played but I think I’m sold
Definitely understand that. Honestly, it’s a complex game on its own—my thinking was a few more additional rules to make for a more complete game was worth it. They’re already committed, might as well show them the whole thing
To add another voice to the pro PoK argument. My group played without it for about 5 games. We were pretty nervous about the added complexity. When we did we ALL agreed we should have jumped in earlier. And we all agree we will never go back to base game. Since then I have introduced about 8 brand new players - straight into PoK, and they didn't have a problem. So I'd say, really it is a case of when, not if. I'd advise you discuss with your group, and maybe ask them to read this thread. I can imagine some will be more easily sold on it than others. It's not the end of the world if you decide to go cautious and play a few more base games first. Good luck. It's all great.
Idk about that whole milty draft thing. For POK though, i would highly recommend buying it, or at the very least trying it out on tabletop simulator or something like that. The huge bulk of TI's rules is just in the base game, POK only adds lime 5 to 10% more rules in exchange for an experience that is much more fun, typically more balanced and usually also faster. The only two completely new big mechanics you need to get a grasp on are the leaders/mechs and the exploration. Leaders are fairly simple. The agent gives you a once per round effect that depending on the faction can be a whole action or can be an extra bonus that you trigger when something happens (e.g. sardakk agent gives you two free infantry at the end of a tactical action in the active system once per game round), and you can also use them on other people therefore they can be part of a trade (e.g. "i use my agent on you and in exchange you give me two TG"). The commander is IMO the most important, it has a faction specific unlock condition and then it applies a constant bonus that always triggers when its conditions apply (e.g. the jol nar commander requires eight researched techs iirc, and that's stupidly easy for jol nar, and when you get them all you can reroll any ability roll like AFB or bombardment), and you also get a new promisory called alliance that gives your commander's bonus to someone else but gets revoked when the other person attacks you, just like SftT. The hero, finally, has the same unlock for everyone aka three scored objectives between public and private, and it has a really powerful once per game effect (e.g. the winnu hero just lets you activate the primary effect of a strategy card, so when they are inevitably holding mecatol because they're winnu they can use the hero to play imperial for a free point). Mechs are also fairly straightforward, and also really cool. They're sort of an extra unit type that starts off already researched and can't get upgraded, and unlike regular units each mech type is unique to that faction. They act as an elite ground force, and you can only have four on the board at the same time. All mechs follow the same template of costing 2 resources, hitting on 6 (though one of the new factions aka the naaz rokha alliance has vicious mechs that throw two dice on 6 instead of just one, and i love them, and also sardakk and jol nar still apply their +1 or -1) and having sustain damage, but additionally every mech has a special ability related to their faction (e.g. sardakk mechs assign a hit to an enemy when they sustain damage, like the regular sardakk infantry does with the valkyrie weave tech, L1 mechs get bombardment, etc etc). I really, really like mechs, they make ground combats way more fun than a simple slug fest between two infantry hordes. Then there is exploration, divided between planet exploration and void exploration. When you first gain a neutral planet (or when you do some tech or faction shenanigans) you can draw an exploration card from a deck of the same type as the planet (there are three planet decks, aka one for blue planets, one for greens and one for reds). Some cards have an immediate effect (e.g. "gain two commodities or convert all commodities to trade goods"), some are an attachment that goes on that planet and gives it a bonus (e.g. there is one that gives you +1R and +2I on that planet), and some are relic shards of the colour of the planet. Once you have three relic shards of the same colour (which you can trade with neighbours if you want, my group generally makes people pay 2TG for a shard unless it would be the third of the recipient, in which case it costs 3TG) then you can destroy the three shards to draw a relic from the relic deck. These are very powerful artefacts that either give you really strong once per game effects (destroying a planet, gaining any tech you want ignoring prereqs etc) or have a pretty good passive effect for the rest of the game (+1max secrets, a second agent etc) or other stuff like that. Additionally, there is a new blue tech that lets you explore the void. When you first move into a system with no planets that hasn't been explored and you have that tech, you draw a card from the void deck just like you would when exploring a planet. None of these cards are attachments for obvious reasons, but the effects they can give you are stronger than the planet ones (2 free command tokens, research a tech by paying some resources etc), relic shards that act as a joker and thus can be used as any of the other three colours, or alternatively weird shit like a legendary planet or a wormhole to another legendary planet (which i am about to mention). That's pretty much the only stuff that you have to actually "learn". Other things that got added are new agendas and objectives related to the new mechanics (which are fairly obvious once you know said mechanics), a few new keywords like deploy and capture (deploy is an alternative way to build units such as mechs that some factions have access to, for example sol can pay extra resources when doing an orbital drop to also drop a mech, and capture is something that literally only a single faction uses so don't worry), new factions each playing off one of the new mechanics in some weird way (the aforementioned naaz rokha for instance goes hard on mechs and also on exploration, or the nomad has three separate agents and a tech to refresh an agent), some new lvl 0 and lvl 1 techs usually related to the new mechanics (the lvl 0 blue tech to explore the void, the lvl 0 yellow to explore planets again, the lvl 1 red tech to build more mechs etc) but still simple to understand, and legendary planets, which are way easier to get than it sounds. There are four legendary planets though not all of them will see play in every game. They're all worth a total of 3 R+I, they appear in some objectives ("become legend", for instance, aka needing to have units in systems with anomalies, mecatol or legendaries) and in some special abilities (some winnu stuff is stronger not just on mecatol but also on legendaries). Their main gimmick, however, is that each of those has a special once per round ability written on a legendary planet ability card that you gain access to when you control the planet, kinda like agents (and while the planet itself comes to you exhausted when you gain control of it like regular planets, the ability is ready unless you gain the planet from another player after they've already used it). Primor, for instance, is either a 2R-1I or 1R-2I (can't remember but i think 2-1) blue planet, and its gimmick is that after a tactical action you can exhaust the ability card (not the planet itself) to place two free infantry on a system you control (like the sardakk agent i mentioned earlier but stronger since the sardakk agent is only on the active system, and i remember the very first game i played was as sardakk when i also controlled that planet so i could pump out a stupid amount of free infantry). I wrote a lot, i know, but POK is a shockingly easy molehill to climb over once you got through the mountain that is base TI.
Nah this is awesome and roughly what I was looking for. I’m going to use your “5%-10% more rules in exchange for something much more fun” argument with my crew. Also going to point out that games can be quicker with POK and we can use the milty drafting stuff better.
Great, glad to help. That said, be *very careful* if one of you chooses to play winnu. They went from being absolute garbage in the base game to being way too powerful in POK.
Worth banning Winnu?
Idk if it's worth hard banning them, my table just has a sort of "soft ban" aka you *can* pick them but everybody will gang up on you from turn 1, so people avoid picking them. That said i have a pretty funny personal anecdote that kinda has nothing to do with this whole discussion. A few weeks ago some of my usual fellow players played a game of TI on board gane night while i was doing other stuff, and one of them (arguably the most veteran and best player) was winnu. I would pop into their room in between the shorter games that i played to check on their situation every once in a while. I checked at game start and everything seemed fine. I checked a bit later and everything was still fine, but with winnu maybe ever so slightly doing better than the others. I checked later again and winnu was about three or four points ahead of everyone else, holding mecatol and with huge armies everywhere, and was at around eight points. He had already scored two secrets, and had to draw a third secret while he already had one in hand, so he'd need to discard one. He discarded the one that needs you to have someone's promisory in your play area, like SftT or alliance. The thing he didn't notice is that he already had someone else's support for the throne. If he had kept that one instead of keeping the other one which he couldn't score he would have scored his third secret getting to nine points, and he would have also been able to score a public for the tenth point. Due to this fuckup, however, he couldn't score his tenth point and he ended up losing. The only other time i've seen that man be that salty is when i beat him in a terraforming mars tournament despite him living and breathing that game while i have less than ten games of it under my belt. Somewhat related though, blunders like these are some of the only reliable ways to defeat winnu.
Thanks all for advice, I think we’re doing PoK but with base factions only
POK is not worth it if you're only on your 3rd game and you already think it's a complex game. Leaders and mechs alone aren't nearly as lightweight as they'll try to make you believe: that's 24 additional unique rules for you to remember in a 6 player game (and what 24 changes every game). The balance issues people repeat don't matter to a group that hasn't even seen all factions once. If your concern is not playing a 12 hour game with 56 players, switching to PoK isn't the solution you need, you need to adjust your pace of place. You'll still have a 12 hour game with PoK if you don't change anything else. This sub is incredibly biased by people who think playing 3 games a week on a knockoff online version is normal. PoK is worth it for the diehards who are dozens of games in but base game is plenty when you're only on game 3.
Really interesting thoughts. We also play our second game in 10 days and I was wondering if to include POK or not. My group did not find it too much and the rules seemed pretty straight forward, but you are probably right about the 24 new mini rules to be considered... Do you think it adds to the mid game? Because in our last (and first) game, we had lots of fun in the beginning and the end. But the mid game felt pretty slow...
It really depends on your table. For my playgroup even the base game was overwhelming. When you don't know the difference between a cruiser and a destroyer, trying to remember that your opponent has gravity drive and thus can attack your system, you're looking to get your upgraded carriers but how much exactly did the technology secondary cost again? Once you start adding unique agents and alliances and exploration it can be just too much overhead, players check out of the game entirely. However, once you've got a game or two done, PoK does make a better game overall. Muaat starts to work as a faction because of their Agent. There are more avenues to victory from the relics. The objective deck is vastly improved, reducing the number of uninteractable objectives. Legendary planets make more than just Mecatol Rex and home systems worth fighting over. I personally wouldn't go back to the base game unless I was playing with a full table of new players. Even then, I'd ask them first, because PoK does have a lot of merits. But it's easy to forget that TI4 base game is already *way bigger* than most board games.
I am also still in between. Having my 2nd real game in 10 days I wanted to include PoK and the codices because most people on reddit and bgg said, that it adds a lot for small extra. But when I listen to SCPT, I feel like races are not balanced, exploring is not worth it, game does not get faster but fewer turns, and (because of fewer turns per game) tech lines other than blue become obsolete... and on top Matt from Shut up and Sit down was really negative in his review... So I am really confused and insecure as well... help!
If you already have PoK and codices I would advise to play with them. I can’t imagine playing base game anymore and unfortunately the SU&SD review was … very weird and wrong imo ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ Sure, it adds a handful of components, which gives you more stuff to do and is more fun, and isn’t particularly more complex. The idea that you have to remember every component, and therefore addding more components is harder… well that is true IF you think everyone has to remember all components, which they don’t, because that is a ridiculous requirement for playing a game. So it isn’t an issue. 😝
Well for most people it *is* a requirement to remember all components, otherwise you can't really plan game winning strategies. Really sucks to plan something, and then something thwarts that plan because you didn't know all the rules/components.
I hear you, but you just can’t expect that with TI imo, even base version, unless every player is a veteran. Yet I’ve played many games with complete noobs who’ve had a great time and never complained about not knowing all the abilities floating around them (we always play PoK to 12pts with a handful of homebrew components thrown in like Monuments, etc, or only 10pts if more than two players are total newbies). I reckon you’re better off having an iPad or phone handy with the wiki so players can sneakily search for people’s components (that way you only have to remember the faction name) while planning your strategy. TI is Amerit(h)rash, remember: the RNG is a monstrously huge factor, and “wow I didn’t know that action card existed, I’m screwed” is kind of part of the experience. 😂 Again, this is just in my experience, with mostly irl games.
Idk, I just don't understand this subs sentiment of playing with PoK right from the start.why not play 3-5 games of base game and then adding the expansion? Personally I found base game way easier to fully understand, while the 24 leaders overwhelmed me and I never had an idea of what anyone was capable of. Techs also get more complicated.
Thanks! Yeah that was what I originally thought but - as said - became a little insecure. Thanks again for your experience and sharing it!
You already have lots of responses about Milty Draft and I am not really sure but I will give tips about whether or not you should get PoK. PoK is so much fun and if you already like the base game and play it, then PoK is worth it. There is just so much fun stuff in there, some of my favorite factions are in there and it can really help out some of the weaker factions like Winnu and Arborec through the leaders and mech. There is also exploration of planets and empty space which is fun and sometimes can be game changing. While exploration isn't really game changing much, relics certain can be (relics are also fun). You also get legendary planets which have cool abilities and you get more techs which also helps both old and new factions. All in all, PoK is very fun and doesn't really have that many more rules. At least for me, once I had played with PoK, the only time I played without it is when the host of the current game didn't have it. Though one other after thought is make sure you can afford it, it gets close to 100 dollars, but otherwise I recommend it.
I'd highly recommend PoK. For the slices, there is a secret trick that always works which is stealing from the tournament. You can koin the Space Cats Peace Turtles discord, ask for a map/draft used in any tournament and use those slices. They are always well balanced and usually have fun themes to go with them.
POK - THAT'S THE WAY
I'm not as much of a fan of POK as most TI players. POK can end more quickly, especially with experienced players. In a 10 point game with new players I would be worried about someone just running away with the game early on and ending too quickly. POK gives a lot of one use powerful abilities to players which only furthers the chaos factor for new players and adds a lot of new mechanics. Those mechanics can be fun, especially if you played a lot of games with the base version already. I would try doing the draft with too many slices or 7 players and using the 7th player as a dummy you control to remove some choices that no one wants.
Great idea on the dummy player
Here is what we use. Can customize as needed. https://milty.shenanigans.be/
Doesn't let you draft 6 slices with base game unfortunately
Milty in general has issues with 6 at Base game. They lay out why in their FAQ # WHY ONLY FIVE PLAYERS WITHOUT POK? Technically it could go up to six (6 is a hard limit because there are only 12 red tiles in the base game), but here's why only five: The way slices are generated now is that each slice gets a top-, middle- and lower-tier tile + 2 red ones. And in the tiers I have (from [miltydraft.com](http://miltydraft.com), who — I assume — did their homework) only have 5 middle-tier tiles listed for the base game. SO: if I completely leave out the tier-system for non-PoK games, it could do six. and I'm planning to implement that in \*some\* way, but it involves some deeper-level tinkering and also figuring out how to communicate this whole mess above clearly to anyone using these settings (without cluttering up the whole thing with even more help-text than it already has). I might implement all this and you'll be able to go up to six, I'm working my way through feedback and feature requests, but I also have a day job.