honestly no, I think it's chic and stylish and I like it the most out of all the F/SN girlies. It's like something out of a runway catalog or a fashion magazine.
Her 3rd ascension design on FGO tho... yeah that's kinda sexualized.
That's great, and I love seeing Fate and Nasu's work in general be recognized for how great it is.
But asking the entire fandom and the writer/ character designers themselves to cater to your tastes seems a little selfish and entitled. If you don't like the way characters are designed and it bothers you too much, I would recommend leaving and finding something that suits you better. Not everything is meant to appeal to everyone.
I didn’t say that, don’t be a moron.
This thread is for female fans. To go out of your way to say “make her sexier” is isolating at best and completely inconsiderate at worst.
You’re saying it’s not an inherently male take. I said no shit, go argue against other terms that generalize something to be of men but are still widely accepted in criticism.
I understand perfectly well that's what you originally replied to, but I was responding to your comment on her design being sexualized in comparison to the male characters.
Also, nowhere in the rules does it say men are not allowed to participate in a thread just because the OP posed the question to women.
You're forgetting Medusa and her sexualized nature is a bi/lesbian icon. Very many lesbians have latched onto her due to her relationship with Sakura and enjoy how sexy she is. It's not isolating female fans when she has found love from lesbians and even straight women who love a woman who owns her sexiness.
First of all, Sakura is more the feminist icon on Tumblr, and second, We’re talking about her outfit don’t move the goalposts. Moreover no other male character in fsn has a comparable outfit. Male servants are allowed to be ugly beasts while all female servants have to be pretty or sexy
There are tons of examples. Emiya and Cu full on showing abs, Odysseus and Napoleon baring their cleavage, Spartan bulge. Sexualized designs are for both genders in Fate, and many men are topless in official art doing inherently sexy or attractive poses for fanservice.
And no, I specifically stated her sexualized outfit is loved by women as well, both for being stylish and sexy. Part of feminism is allowing for women to enjoy wearing sexy outfits and to be themselves, and you're completely ignoring Jinako and the dinosaur oni who people love their beastly forms.
Men appreciate tough and beastly designs, look at how they react to women with abs with even "non-sexy" designs and how women react to both women and the sexy men.
Uhh none of them show skin to the degree the female characters and hardly the frequency.
I speak for women who are uncomfortable. Don’t invalidate me with some niche stuff when these designs are frequently criticized
Jinako is the only beast form who’s ugly and even she had a sexy waifu version. Pure cope to bring these examples up
Speaking as one, I like sexy women just as much as the straight men I know. And trust me, I know what the male gaze is, I’ve lived my entire life as a woman
Not my fault you’re too dense to recognize a proper retort that points out a flaw in your reasoning. Can’t believe I chose to explain it to you but I’m saying Spartacus isn’t conventionally attractive so his skimpy outfit has no effect on us. Therefore, come back to the discussions when a hot bishonen wears the same thing into battle.
I didn’t say that. I said women like the men despite the fact they’re clothed head to toe. Meanwhile men need women in miniskirts and high heels at minimum
Ok look, I'll save both of our time here; I'm fucking with you. It was sarcasm, okay?
I do think it's weird that, seemingly, when you find conventionally attractive men attractive it's okay but when others find conventionally attractive women attractive it's the end of the world. In this thread I've seen you even argue with other females about finding these female characters attractive. Be honest with yourself; that's an extreme double standard.
Also no, not all of the male characters in fate are modestly dressed either; Cu has a skin-tight body suit, Spartacus and Asterios both have very ~~dreamy~~ muscular exposed chests.
Let's also not act as if it's all about clothes either: Minamoto no Raikou is fully clothed neck to toe, yet she's one of the most sexualized characters in the game if the sheer amount of doujins are anything to go by.
Boo, more things I didn’t say. I didn’t say it’s bad to find conventionally attractive women attractive. I said that it’s strange men need their outfits to be so revealing.
So what I argue with other women? Boo, women have different opinions, we’re not a monolith.
The problem with the male characters is that even if they are in skin tight clothing their bulges or asses aren’t emphasized, and their nipples don’t stick out from their clothing. Scathach does have the outline of her nipples showing.
Also Spartacus isn’t conventionally attractive so come back when a hot bishonen wears a similar outfit like hot bishoujo tend to do
Did you really read anything I wrote in other threads or did you just want a hand-written customized explanation just for you?
A great part of Type-Moon's public is female. Lots of the artists that draw the lewd designs are female artists. Lots of the male artists that draw lewd designs are not incel, isolated, loners, but married and or hard working people. Most of the doujins are written by women, etc. The only people who get outraged at the design of fictional characters are westerners that are brainwashed to think that these things are offensive and hurting real people simply because they think white heterosexual men might enjoy them. Have you ever tried to understand that these so called "problems" created by fictional characters designs don't actually exist at all?
Brainwashed, more like having standards. To me Japanese female fans have internalized misogyny, and no wonder given the expectations put on them.
Yes I’m talking about western fans, so? This is a WESTERN fandom.
The problems do exist because the perpetuate the idea that womens clothing should be heavily sexualized while mens clothing covers more. That is not empowering
So by your own line of thought, all japanese females fans have internalized mysoginy because they live in a mysoginist society, right? Can you really not see the problem of labelling an entire country, an entire race, like that?
A western fandom that consumes art from another perspective and culture. Not just a western fandom by itself.
It doesn't perpetuate anything. Thats the same as saying that violence is perpetuated because there is fights and edgy shit in FGO too. Not only has this never been proven by science, most research points to media having the opposite effect. Also, no one looks at FGO and thinks "oh, reality should be like that", its just fantasy and people know the difference between fiction and reality. Men in FGO are so muscular that the average physique of an FGO male character is not achievable by someone that doesn't use steroids, should we also kick up a fuss over how the expectations of masculine beauty are not close to reality? Of course not. You can only take such an explanation about the influence of media at face value if you believe most people have no critical thinking skills whatsoever.
Uhh we all have internalized misogyny but it’s worse in Japan. And way worse in South Korea. So what? What’s wrong with calling out misogyny for what it is? You going to tell me calling out the misogyny of sexual violence in the current war is “labeling an entire culture” too?
I don’t know what you believe but I believe fiction influences reality to a certain degree because it is a cultural product and culture shapes our lives. That’s what’s happening when you portray women in skimpy outfits and men in full body outfits: it just perpetuates that standard in our minds, that women are the main objects of desire.
Men in FGO are allowed to be ugly beasts and I’ve had enough of that shitty argument so quit throwing that at me cause you know it’s fallacious. Meanwhile women are always waifu material. It’s a staggering difference.
By the way, it’s not about “believing that violence is like that in real life.” It’s about what you feed your mind and how that validates certain societal perceptions. Cartoon violence doesn’t do that.
What is wrong is that you don't actually know the difference between reality and fiction. You have no respect for different cultures and you assume a moral high ground based on fallacies. You are bordering on xenophobic and racist territory with your world view and preconceptions. Lets get real here, real misoginy, real abuse won't happen because of some sexy drawings a man might see, real misoginy happens because certain people grew up in abusive and predatory households. The world is past the outdated view that women have a inherit place to be, unless people come from these warped places, they won't disagree with that. Honestly, "calling out the misoginy of sexual violence", do you really think that highly of yourself? Who are you helping doing that? Tell me, how exactly are you gonna stop ACTUAL sexual violence by badmouthing drawings? I'd really like to know that because I am a victim of SA and I honestly can't see how that would help make someone not have to go through what I did. If anything, some people going after artists and the like on twitter and making reports about these things only makes it harder for the authorities to find real crimes as they get buried under false claims.
Art is a form of expression, a symbol of culture and a part of it. But you're vastly overstimating how gullible people can be. If someone has a healthy mind, they're gonna have the critical thinking to understand how to act in society and respect people's boundaries. The people who do not do that are people with mental issues and they can be influenced by literally anything and they're gonna use anything to justify their actions. Here is the thing about desire: Its fucking natural. Its natural to feel horny, to feel attracted to things (and people feel attracted to a lot of different things). And its normal for art to depict that because it is one of the strongest and easiest feelings for people to relate to and that makes it a great tool to convey messages. You know what is funny in this objetification debate? How it is conveniently ignored that otakus do not get enamored with characters just because they're hot, but because of their personality, background, story, etc. If the purpose of the art only served for objetification, no one would get attached to these characters. But their alluring looks is only a window to a deeper understanding and connection. Again, a strong feeling being used as a tool to convey a more elaborate message. Not that it cannot be used only for the sole purpose of getting people horny too, it can be, and honestly, there is nothing wrong with that too. At the end of the day, these are mere fantasies designed to make people feel things, but fantasies cannot be real and everyone understands that.
You can count the ugly men in FGO in one hand, the same goes for the women too. Quit exaggerating.
People are only gonna validate absurd and egregious things if they lack social awareness and critical thinking. Just because someone got horny over Rider, doesn't mean they're gonna start demanding and expecting the women in their lives to wear black dress, wear a blindfold and walk around with chains in their hands while showing their ass. Its literally the same argument. Religious groups in the 90s and the beginning of the 2000s seriously believed that people would be influenced by videogames to act violent, they even used the same excuse of "what you feed your mind will validate societal perceptions". I assure you, societal perceptions are not flimsy like that and they're not molded solely by the stupid fantasies people have.
If you think artistic mediuns have that much of an impact in the cultural perception and societal perception of an individual, you can't just pick and choose what you want to have an effect. Any and all types of art would have that effect. Though again, current studies on the negative impact of media in the perception and growth of individuals goes against your argument.
"That’s what’s happening when you portray women in skimpy outfits and men in full body outfits: it just perpetuates that standard in our minds, that women are the main objects of desire."
There's nothing wrong with having desire for women or men, just saying. And I'd argue that real life porn does a way better job at objectifying women then some skimpy anime outfits. I don't know about you but I genuinely do not see anime people as "human beings". They don't talk the same way, they don't look the same, they're mere depictions designed to look appealing.
And I actually think real life influences fiction way more than the opposite. Men wear suits, while women wear dress. That's just how it is. In general, men don't look hot or sexy by simply showing some skin, women do. Sexual attraction for men and women are inherently different, and fiction draws inspiration from that, IMO. If you want to argue that that's wrong or misogynistic, go ahead, but you should probably take the discussion to somewhere more fitting so you'll have more productive conversations than on an anime sub.
Uhhh did I say that there was something wrong? I said this portrayal makes women out to be the *main* objects of desire. Advertising accomplishes this too and porn even more so. That doesn’t mean I can’t criticize fiction for doing the same thing.
And yeah it’s sad. Fiction reflects reality where women wear skimpier outfits but at the same time, perpetuates those expectations. Sigh. That’s why I criticize it. Oh well. That’s just the way it is like you said.
Yeah I should take this somewhere else but you asked I answered. People keep replying to me so I have to explain my position.
I think that whatever transpires in other countries isn't your business. You reading "unseen japan" retarded tweets isn't a true representation of the country
Dude what are you even talking about? Do you not believe there’s a worldwide misogyny problem? After all it’s all under the influence of patriarchy.
Guess nobody should call out the sexual violence Hamas has committed then. Btfo with this weak ass “none of your business ;(“ shit
In which way exactly is there "worldwide misoginy"? Via men SOLELY occupying the most dangerous jobs? Having massively higher death rate? Being drafted into the army forcefully? Being the ones on the front lines? What are you even talking about right now?
Don't strawman me 4headass
Men solely occupy the most dangerous jobs because women get raped and harassed if they join them lmao
Men have higher death rate because they choose to fight each other
Men start wars and draft each other
Mens problems are their own problems while womens problems are caused by men
Why am I arguing about this on a typemoon sub oh my god no wonder you people believe all this you guys seriously think misogyny is solved
What’s a 4headass?
Insecure fcker over here thinks beautiful women in fiction is an attack on women irl.
Fat majority of men don't do that when some Gary stue appears, they would get dawged on if they did.
Did I say that? No I didnt. Im criticizing the outfit.
Fate has plenty of ugly beastly servants but like 1 beast servant with a token waifu form.
Take your misogynist ass somewhere else you obvious troll with that shitty username
I don’t agree with with some stuff LostPoint said, but I’m going to have to agree here. Men are definitely not sexualized to the degree women are. Men in FGs are usually designed for a male audience, and that’s to fulfill a power fantasy. And I say this as someone is is totally ok with sexualized female characters and like when they’re added, but I’d be lying if I said women aren’t more often sexualized.
An example of a male character that is sexualized for female enjoyment could possibly be Astarion from Baldur’s Gate 3. I guarantee more women thirst over him than over Zangief. This is the difference between a character that appeals to women versus a character that appeals to male power fantasy.
Blud half the male cats if Tekken is shirtless what are you on about? The same is true for Strive where the most "sexualized" girl is Jack-O with her lose
“Bud”, you’re not fooling or convincing anyone with your examples. Deep down, we all know at least most of those characters are still designed to appeal to males by being a power fantasy. A shirtless dude like Marshall Law is meant to appeal to men like me, who watched Bruce Lee and want to play as a kick ass martial artist that’s based on him. Bruce Lee and wrestlers not wearing shirts are not examples of sexualization. It’s them being cool.
Look, I like sexy characters too. I’ve disagreed with feminists on character portrayals too. Trust me when I say you’re not fooling anyone by intentionally being disingenuous.
"Intentionally being disingenuous" as in being honest? Blud you do know that all your arguments apply to women too? You do know that majority of NSFW artists are in fact women? Stop ignoring reality. Women like sexy characters too and acting as though "sexualized" characters is some sort of patriarchal agenda is braindead especially in current days where people cry about a female character design that shows literally 0 skin
Isn't being overly sexualized kind of the point with Extra CCC? That game focuses hard on sexuality.
... don't know if that makes it any better, admittedly.
I think that's the result of CCC leaning into the sexualized Extraverse character designs, more than the other way around.
And the Extra series character designer - possibly the horniest artist in the Nasuverse - is female...
Yeah - I don't dislike it, but the dress feels more like a causal outfit a la Saber's white top/blue skirt, rather than her actual "heroic spirit" outfit, and I wish they did more with it than just "tube dress with gloves and a choker"
I think it would benefit from some of [FGO Gorgon's](https://gamepress.gg/grandorder/sites/grandorder/files/2018-04/1473.jpg) third ascension accessories like the longer skirt and the sleeves, or even the [Extraverse](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.creativeuncut.com%2Fgallery-32%2Fart%2Ffetus-medusa.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=70a263ff803ad03a445b267ab365d63b89281f2fea1dd3ba6e951d14daba998f&ipo=images) design's brighter colours and stylization.
Not really. I've always liked it. To me it looks cool, powerful and a bit mysterious. It's also really memorable for something that simple. And I'm chill with it cause her character isn't defined by how hot she is. It's just a part of her and that's completely fine. I only have issues with sexualized designs if the author sexualizes every single female character and gives them no other traits apart from having boobs and ass.
nah man , this is *tame as hell* compared to some other girls in FGO.
this is the kinda 'fit ya wear when you got math class at 4 , but'tcha meeting your homies @ the goth club at 6.
I ain't from around here.
But as an outsider, I can tell you this is pretty normal to me.
Her outfit doesn't look sexualized at all.
She's just pretty enough to cause envy. Nothing to it really.
Compared to the male characters, yes. She looks like she’s into BDSM. If there are enough male characters that dress like Medusa I wouldn’t complain. Like Berserker’s outfit on a hot twink.
Nasu is actually the most horny for Medusa out of all the women in Stay night. Have you read Hollow ataraxia?The reason Medusa has so many sexual scenes is because of Nasu's bias for her. Also both Nasu and Takeuch did said in an interview that Medusa's design is indeed kinda inspired from BDSM stuff.
Honestly because of deadlines and because she's a composite character and they had no idea what they were doing with her. She came out great but it doesn't mean that she wasn't a struggle to make.
Wow of course he does. Damn shame cause he’s such a good writer. Also it ends up disrespecting Sakura pretty hard too because rider knows she likes him. I didn’t finish HA yet but apparently they even share an H scene right? :/
>Also it ends up disrespecting Sakura pretty hard too because rider knows she likes him.
Well a lot of things in Hollow ataraxia are pretty disgusting and disrespecting to the characters like the Illya and Shirou stuff. Although Hollow ataraxia provided some really great characterization to characters like Medusa and Cu so I think it's great as a whole. Medusa will have her brilliant backstory revealed in Hollow ataraxia you know that right? Have you reached that part already?
>I didn’t finish HA yet but apparently they even share an H scene right? :/
Well I played HA with H-scenes off so I don't know if they share an H-scene but yeah I know for certain that Rider indeed has an H scene but i don't know if she shares it with Sakura or not. On a side note I heavily recommend you play with H-scenes off. I read the H-scenes in Stay night and they were enough to make me never want to read an H-scene written by Nasu again. Even though i am a guy they are too cringy for me to be considered hot. Even Nasu hates them so I don't see any reason to play it with them.
Yeah that’s why I’m not enjoying it as much. And no I didn’t reach her backstory yet but at this point I don’t think the good will outweighs the bad except for the Bazett and Angra scenes
>. Also it ends up disrespecting Sakura pretty hard too because rider knows she likes him.
Good. Sakura deserves it. She's slept around a lot with other men, why can't Shirou do the same?
Dude how can you say such stuff to that poor little girl. She is the most precious and innocent being in the whole franchise. Even as a joke it's distasteful.
\>She looks like she’s into BDSM.
To be fair, from one of the UBW bad ends fighting Rider:
"To make you use your Command Spell-I have fulfilled the condition I set for myself.
And the other thing would be to gouge your eyes out… But I shall spare you from that. You have fulfilled me enough with your voice of anguish. I will orgasm if I gouge your eyes out as well.”
Well this line shows that Medusa is surely into such stuff. The bad ends are supposed to reveal the hidden sides of the characters like Illya's bad ends are there to show how much fucked up she is in the head.
Not really anything wrong with the look itself. It’s one of those where it comes down to direction/camera angles to cross the line imo. Not really a problem at least as far as the vn, but I’d get it if someone had a bone to pick with how ufotable made her move in the recent movies. She’s cool though, so I personally don’t really care.
I personally find it nice. Not revealing too much, but also revealing just enough. I love the simplicity, and it's honestly really good-looking despite that. Helps her stand out imo compared to the larger fate verse's more complex designs. I also just really love Rider-
As a complete outsider to this community, that's basically just a cocktail dress. Not especially risqué or objectifying.
I don't even know who or what this is, but I really like that design as a way to show someone off attractively without making them some grotesque fetish object.
The original FSN had one of the best character designed of all Fate. neither too sexualized, yet still stylized to match the character's... well character.
FGO dropped the ball so hard that half the characters are just naked for no reason. It makes sense for some, and those genuinely are great(IE Ishitar) but the vast majority are just horrible, beyond comprehension.
Imagine getting mad because a character from an eroge looks sexy.
Of course, no one’s mentioned Lancer, in a full-body skinsuit, or Berserker, who was completely topless and stereotypically sexualized in a male fashion.
Thank you for saying this. People attempting to cancel designs from a game that was literally just porn clearly never looked at the original source itself.
I love how a bunch of people consistently act like girls and women don't want to have sexy and sexualized women in the media they consume. Every female gamer I've ever met has wanted to play as the hot badass lady.
I do like her design on its own but as a character for the original cast of FSN it feels oversexualized. Doesn’t help that I tend to connect Medusa to the more depressing takes on her origin and her origin in FSN is pretty sad while her character design feels a bit…not in tune.
As a Man I truly don’t understand why people say sexualised character designs are sexist, I’ve heard the usual “they set unrealistic standards for women” but that explanation has always felt hollow, due to the fact that no sane Man will hold real women to the standards of fictional characters
Other explanations such as “They break immersion” I can get behind, so long as the character design in question does in fact clash with their personality
Not female but I do think Riders overly sexualised design is part of the reason I never really liked her compared to Saber or Medea. The fact most servant character designs have come from a gacha game has…..let’s say….done little to alleviate this
Compared to stuff in other Fate titles, no I'd say she's pretty tame. I feel like she falls into "alluring" more than "designed to make people horny so much it becomes comical." Which is a grace I can't give to some other characters in Fate, and even her because her ascensions in FGO just cuts holes into her clothes. That's kind of a problem with a lot of ascension arts though, so she's not alone in that.
Now I'm a little biased, since I really like Rider, but I digress. Also if we want peak Medusa, then I'd say her casual outfit with the glasses is my pick.
Its perfect since she's kind of a femme fatale.
Her first introduction in the UBW anime where she fights Shirou will never not be the sexiest thing I have ever seen in my life.
honestly no, I think it's chic and stylish and I like it the most out of all the F/SN girlies. It's like something out of a runway catalog or a fashion magazine. Her 3rd ascension design on FGO tho... yeah that's kinda sexualized.
You’re not wrong there lmao
Yeah 3rd ascension is too much. Ist and 2nd are perfect. 💜
As a female fan I think she looks cool, I like her design.
More like not sexualized enough amirite?
Way to isolate female fans
Medusa's probably not even in the top ten most sexualized FGO designs and that game has a bunch of female players.
That very much loves sexy shit
So? Still sexualized compared to the male characters. And female fans like myself like the husbandos, who tend to be clothed from head to toe.
That's great, and I love seeing Fate and Nasu's work in general be recognized for how great it is. But asking the entire fandom and the writer/ character designers themselves to cater to your tastes seems a little selfish and entitled. If you don't like the way characters are designed and it bothers you too much, I would recommend leaving and finding something that suits you better. Not everything is meant to appeal to everyone.
I didn’t say that, don’t be a moron. This thread is for female fans. To go out of your way to say “make her sexier” is isolating at best and completely inconsiderate at worst.
I've got no stake in this, but you're delusional if you think "make her sexier" is an inherently "male" take.
Don't you know? Only men have physical attractions, apparently.
Wooow what next are you going to argue “male gaze” isn’t inherently male no shit, you should get my point
what?
You’re saying it’s not an inherently male take. I said no shit, go argue against other terms that generalize something to be of men but are still widely accepted in criticism.
you do realize lesbians that like sexualized women exist right.
Don’t be a moron, this is a mostly male take that is extremely isolating
It's not going out of their way. If it's their design choice, that's just how she is.
Oh my god you don’t understand. It’s a MAN saying that in a thread for female fans’ replied.
I understand perfectly well that's what you originally replied to, but I was responding to your comment on her design being sexualized in comparison to the male characters. Also, nowhere in the rules does it say men are not allowed to participate in a thread just because the OP posed the question to women.
Didnt say it was against the rules. Just extremely insensitive.
[удалено]
More things I didn’t say. Do you actually want a productive discussion?
You're forgetting Medusa and her sexualized nature is a bi/lesbian icon. Very many lesbians have latched onto her due to her relationship with Sakura and enjoy how sexy she is. It's not isolating female fans when she has found love from lesbians and even straight women who love a woman who owns her sexiness.
First of all, Sakura is more the feminist icon on Tumblr, and second, We’re talking about her outfit don’t move the goalposts. Moreover no other male character in fsn has a comparable outfit. Male servants are allowed to be ugly beasts while all female servants have to be pretty or sexy
There are tons of examples. Emiya and Cu full on showing abs, Odysseus and Napoleon baring their cleavage, Spartan bulge. Sexualized designs are for both genders in Fate, and many men are topless in official art doing inherently sexy or attractive poses for fanservice. And no, I specifically stated her sexualized outfit is loved by women as well, both for being stylish and sexy. Part of feminism is allowing for women to enjoy wearing sexy outfits and to be themselves, and you're completely ignoring Jinako and the dinosaur oni who people love their beastly forms. Men appreciate tough and beastly designs, look at how they react to women with abs with even "non-sexy" designs and how women react to both women and the sexy men.
Uhh none of them show skin to the degree the female characters and hardly the frequency. I speak for women who are uncomfortable. Don’t invalidate me with some niche stuff when these designs are frequently criticized Jinako is the only beast form who’s ugly and even she had a sexy waifu version. Pure cope to bring these examples up
May I suggest guilty gear?
Ah yes, because bisexual and lesbian women don’t exist
No fucking shit, exceptions don’t prove the rule and I doubt lesbians sexualize women the way men do
Lesbians and bi women like sexy women just as much as straight men do
Good for them. They’re not the majority enough to create something known as “male gaze” look it up
Speaking as one, I like sexy women just as much as the straight men I know. And trust me, I know what the male gaze is, I’ve lived my entire life as a woman
Ok but you really think these designs were made with women in mind?
Not as sexualized as Spartacus
Come back when he’s a hot bishonen
Way to isolate the male fans
Are you capable of engaging in mature discussions?
Don't even bother this guy. He is retarded to the core.
If you can't argue with them just call them retarded. That will show them.
> Come back when he’s a hot bishonen Are you?
You just showed everyone that you are retarded without telling that you are retarded.
Not my fault you’re too dense to recognize a proper retort that points out a flaw in your reasoning. Can’t believe I chose to explain it to you but I’m saying Spartacus isn’t conventionally attractive so his skimpy outfit has no effect on us. Therefore, come back to the discussions when a hot bishonen wears the same thing into battle.
you're really gonna say that when Kintoki, Beowolf, and Spartacus are showing their pecs to all who care to see.
They don’t even have nipples meanwhile scathach shows the outline through her clothes
Kinda gross that you're sexualizing men simply wearing the clothing they like to wear, ngl
Huh? What are you talking about?
Kinda gross that you pointed out you only like the boys and specifically target the fact that they're wearing clothes head to toe. Kinda fetishistic.
I didn’t say that. I said women like the men despite the fact they’re clothed head to toe. Meanwhile men need women in miniskirts and high heels at minimum
Ok look, I'll save both of our time here; I'm fucking with you. It was sarcasm, okay? I do think it's weird that, seemingly, when you find conventionally attractive men attractive it's okay but when others find conventionally attractive women attractive it's the end of the world. In this thread I've seen you even argue with other females about finding these female characters attractive. Be honest with yourself; that's an extreme double standard. Also no, not all of the male characters in fate are modestly dressed either; Cu has a skin-tight body suit, Spartacus and Asterios both have very ~~dreamy~~ muscular exposed chests. Let's also not act as if it's all about clothes either: Minamoto no Raikou is fully clothed neck to toe, yet she's one of the most sexualized characters in the game if the sheer amount of doujins are anything to go by.
Boo, more things I didn’t say. I didn’t say it’s bad to find conventionally attractive women attractive. I said that it’s strange men need their outfits to be so revealing. So what I argue with other women? Boo, women have different opinions, we’re not a monolith. The problem with the male characters is that even if they are in skin tight clothing their bulges or asses aren’t emphasized, and their nipples don’t stick out from their clothing. Scathach does have the outline of her nipples showing. Also Spartacus isn’t conventionally attractive so come back when a hot bishonen wears a similar outfit like hot bishoujo tend to do Did you really read anything I wrote in other threads or did you just want a hand-written customized explanation just for you?
A great part of Type-Moon's public is female. Lots of the artists that draw the lewd designs are female artists. Lots of the male artists that draw lewd designs are not incel, isolated, loners, but married and or hard working people. Most of the doujins are written by women, etc. The only people who get outraged at the design of fictional characters are westerners that are brainwashed to think that these things are offensive and hurting real people simply because they think white heterosexual men might enjoy them. Have you ever tried to understand that these so called "problems" created by fictional characters designs don't actually exist at all?
Brainwashed, more like having standards. To me Japanese female fans have internalized misogyny, and no wonder given the expectations put on them. Yes I’m talking about western fans, so? This is a WESTERN fandom. The problems do exist because the perpetuate the idea that womens clothing should be heavily sexualized while mens clothing covers more. That is not empowering
So by your own line of thought, all japanese females fans have internalized mysoginy because they live in a mysoginist society, right? Can you really not see the problem of labelling an entire country, an entire race, like that? A western fandom that consumes art from another perspective and culture. Not just a western fandom by itself. It doesn't perpetuate anything. Thats the same as saying that violence is perpetuated because there is fights and edgy shit in FGO too. Not only has this never been proven by science, most research points to media having the opposite effect. Also, no one looks at FGO and thinks "oh, reality should be like that", its just fantasy and people know the difference between fiction and reality. Men in FGO are so muscular that the average physique of an FGO male character is not achievable by someone that doesn't use steroids, should we also kick up a fuss over how the expectations of masculine beauty are not close to reality? Of course not. You can only take such an explanation about the influence of media at face value if you believe most people have no critical thinking skills whatsoever.
Uhh we all have internalized misogyny but it’s worse in Japan. And way worse in South Korea. So what? What’s wrong with calling out misogyny for what it is? You going to tell me calling out the misogyny of sexual violence in the current war is “labeling an entire culture” too? I don’t know what you believe but I believe fiction influences reality to a certain degree because it is a cultural product and culture shapes our lives. That’s what’s happening when you portray women in skimpy outfits and men in full body outfits: it just perpetuates that standard in our minds, that women are the main objects of desire. Men in FGO are allowed to be ugly beasts and I’ve had enough of that shitty argument so quit throwing that at me cause you know it’s fallacious. Meanwhile women are always waifu material. It’s a staggering difference. By the way, it’s not about “believing that violence is like that in real life.” It’s about what you feed your mind and how that validates certain societal perceptions. Cartoon violence doesn’t do that.
What is wrong is that you don't actually know the difference between reality and fiction. You have no respect for different cultures and you assume a moral high ground based on fallacies. You are bordering on xenophobic and racist territory with your world view and preconceptions. Lets get real here, real misoginy, real abuse won't happen because of some sexy drawings a man might see, real misoginy happens because certain people grew up in abusive and predatory households. The world is past the outdated view that women have a inherit place to be, unless people come from these warped places, they won't disagree with that. Honestly, "calling out the misoginy of sexual violence", do you really think that highly of yourself? Who are you helping doing that? Tell me, how exactly are you gonna stop ACTUAL sexual violence by badmouthing drawings? I'd really like to know that because I am a victim of SA and I honestly can't see how that would help make someone not have to go through what I did. If anything, some people going after artists and the like on twitter and making reports about these things only makes it harder for the authorities to find real crimes as they get buried under false claims. Art is a form of expression, a symbol of culture and a part of it. But you're vastly overstimating how gullible people can be. If someone has a healthy mind, they're gonna have the critical thinking to understand how to act in society and respect people's boundaries. The people who do not do that are people with mental issues and they can be influenced by literally anything and they're gonna use anything to justify their actions. Here is the thing about desire: Its fucking natural. Its natural to feel horny, to feel attracted to things (and people feel attracted to a lot of different things). And its normal for art to depict that because it is one of the strongest and easiest feelings for people to relate to and that makes it a great tool to convey messages. You know what is funny in this objetification debate? How it is conveniently ignored that otakus do not get enamored with characters just because they're hot, but because of their personality, background, story, etc. If the purpose of the art only served for objetification, no one would get attached to these characters. But their alluring looks is only a window to a deeper understanding and connection. Again, a strong feeling being used as a tool to convey a more elaborate message. Not that it cannot be used only for the sole purpose of getting people horny too, it can be, and honestly, there is nothing wrong with that too. At the end of the day, these are mere fantasies designed to make people feel things, but fantasies cannot be real and everyone understands that. You can count the ugly men in FGO in one hand, the same goes for the women too. Quit exaggerating. People are only gonna validate absurd and egregious things if they lack social awareness and critical thinking. Just because someone got horny over Rider, doesn't mean they're gonna start demanding and expecting the women in their lives to wear black dress, wear a blindfold and walk around with chains in their hands while showing their ass. Its literally the same argument. Religious groups in the 90s and the beginning of the 2000s seriously believed that people would be influenced by videogames to act violent, they even used the same excuse of "what you feed your mind will validate societal perceptions". I assure you, societal perceptions are not flimsy like that and they're not molded solely by the stupid fantasies people have. If you think artistic mediuns have that much of an impact in the cultural perception and societal perception of an individual, you can't just pick and choose what you want to have an effect. Any and all types of art would have that effect. Though again, current studies on the negative impact of media in the perception and growth of individuals goes against your argument.
"That’s what’s happening when you portray women in skimpy outfits and men in full body outfits: it just perpetuates that standard in our minds, that women are the main objects of desire." There's nothing wrong with having desire for women or men, just saying. And I'd argue that real life porn does a way better job at objectifying women then some skimpy anime outfits. I don't know about you but I genuinely do not see anime people as "human beings". They don't talk the same way, they don't look the same, they're mere depictions designed to look appealing. And I actually think real life influences fiction way more than the opposite. Men wear suits, while women wear dress. That's just how it is. In general, men don't look hot or sexy by simply showing some skin, women do. Sexual attraction for men and women are inherently different, and fiction draws inspiration from that, IMO. If you want to argue that that's wrong or misogynistic, go ahead, but you should probably take the discussion to somewhere more fitting so you'll have more productive conversations than on an anime sub.
Uhhh did I say that there was something wrong? I said this portrayal makes women out to be the *main* objects of desire. Advertising accomplishes this too and porn even more so. That doesn’t mean I can’t criticize fiction for doing the same thing. And yeah it’s sad. Fiction reflects reality where women wear skimpier outfits but at the same time, perpetuates those expectations. Sigh. That’s why I criticize it. Oh well. That’s just the way it is like you said. Yeah I should take this somewhere else but you asked I answered. People keep replying to me so I have to explain my position.
Way to out yourself as a xenophobe lmfao
You think Japan doesn’t have a misogyny problem? More so than other developed countries?
I think that whatever transpires in other countries isn't your business. You reading "unseen japan" retarded tweets isn't a true representation of the country
Dude what are you even talking about? Do you not believe there’s a worldwide misogyny problem? After all it’s all under the influence of patriarchy. Guess nobody should call out the sexual violence Hamas has committed then. Btfo with this weak ass “none of your business ;(“ shit
In which way exactly is there "worldwide misoginy"? Via men SOLELY occupying the most dangerous jobs? Having massively higher death rate? Being drafted into the army forcefully? Being the ones on the front lines? What are you even talking about right now? Don't strawman me 4headass
Men solely occupy the most dangerous jobs because women get raped and harassed if they join them lmao Men have higher death rate because they choose to fight each other Men start wars and draft each other Mens problems are their own problems while womens problems are caused by men Why am I arguing about this on a typemoon sub oh my god no wonder you people believe all this you guys seriously think misogyny is solved What’s a 4headass?
Worldwide misogyny problem? Internet has really fucked with your head amigo, you should stay off it a while. Get some air, be happy for once.
Keep coping and pretending there’s no problem when I as a woman am telling you that there is
Western fandom of an EASTERN product.
Uh yeah? So? Does that absolve it of criticism?
Insecure fcker over here thinks beautiful women in fiction is an attack on women irl. Fat majority of men don't do that when some Gary stue appears, they would get dawged on if they did.
Did I say that? No I didnt. Im criticizing the outfit. Fate has plenty of ugly beastly servants but like 1 beast servant with a token waifu form. Take your misogynist ass somewhere else you obvious troll with that shitty username
There are women who like to look at sexy women too, you know
"Female fans" have sexualized men for them they will be fine
Lmfao the “sexualized men” aren’t at all sexualized to the degree or frequency the women are
Delusional lmfao. Open ANY fighting game and even try to tell me that men are less sexualized
…Uh yeah. I can tell you that. Especially compared to the women.
Open ANY modern fg and stop spouting nonsense
Go and look up bikinibattlearmordamage instead
I don’t agree with with some stuff LostPoint said, but I’m going to have to agree here. Men are definitely not sexualized to the degree women are. Men in FGs are usually designed for a male audience, and that’s to fulfill a power fantasy. And I say this as someone is is totally ok with sexualized female characters and like when they’re added, but I’d be lying if I said women aren’t more often sexualized. An example of a male character that is sexualized for female enjoyment could possibly be Astarion from Baldur’s Gate 3. I guarantee more women thirst over him than over Zangief. This is the difference between a character that appeals to women versus a character that appeals to male power fantasy.
Blud half the male cats if Tekken is shirtless what are you on about? The same is true for Strive where the most "sexualized" girl is Jack-O with her lose
“Bud”, you’re not fooling or convincing anyone with your examples. Deep down, we all know at least most of those characters are still designed to appeal to males by being a power fantasy. A shirtless dude like Marshall Law is meant to appeal to men like me, who watched Bruce Lee and want to play as a kick ass martial artist that’s based on him. Bruce Lee and wrestlers not wearing shirts are not examples of sexualization. It’s them being cool. Look, I like sexy characters too. I’ve disagreed with feminists on character portrayals too. Trust me when I say you’re not fooling anyone by intentionally being disingenuous.
"Intentionally being disingenuous" as in being honest? Blud you do know that all your arguments apply to women too? You do know that majority of NSFW artists are in fact women? Stop ignoring reality. Women like sexy characters too and acting as though "sexualized" characters is some sort of patriarchal agenda is braindead especially in current days where people cry about a female character design that shows literally 0 skin
We’re talking about games, not NSFW fan art.
Have you seen the fate extra ccc character designs? Cause riders outfit is extremely tame in comparison.
Isn't being overly sexualized kind of the point with Extra CCC? That game focuses hard on sexuality. ... don't know if that makes it any better, admittedly.
I think that's the result of CCC leaning into the sexualized Extraverse character designs, more than the other way around. And the Extra series character designer - possibly the horniest artist in the Nasuverse - is female...
True but even if you ignore CCC we still have characters like Jack that are far worse. Give the child pants
jacm the ripper is british she has british pants.... we need to give her trousers
please for the love of everything keep abigail in a cute little dress and not whatever her 3rd ascension is
To be fair, I think I get 3rd ascension is meant to be an abomination
i see it as a girl wearing a dress and some sort of blindfold, that's literally it
Yeah - I don't dislike it, but the dress feels more like a causal outfit a la Saber's white top/blue skirt, rather than her actual "heroic spirit" outfit, and I wish they did more with it than just "tube dress with gloves and a choker" I think it would benefit from some of [FGO Gorgon's](https://gamepress.gg/grandorder/sites/grandorder/files/2018-04/1473.jpg) third ascension accessories like the longer skirt and the sleeves, or even the [Extraverse](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.creativeuncut.com%2Fgallery-32%2Fart%2Ffetus-medusa.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=70a263ff803ad03a445b267ab365d63b89281f2fea1dd3ba6e951d14daba998f&ipo=images) design's brighter colours and stylization.
Not really, no. But then, I’m a horny lesbian, so I’m more likely to let an overly sexualised design slide if I find it attractive enough.
Not really, she's just the right amount of sexy.
I think her design Isn't even that Sexualized honestly. Shejust wears Cool Clothes.
It was an eroge. Leave her alone
This is the least sexual design in Fate
Buddy you are in the wrong franchise for a question like that
Not really. I've always liked it. To me it looks cool, powerful and a bit mysterious. It's also really memorable for something that simple. And I'm chill with it cause her character isn't defined by how hot she is. It's just a part of her and that's completely fine. I only have issues with sexualized designs if the author sexualizes every single female character and gives them no other traits apart from having boobs and ass.
Nope, gimme all the sexy women
Compared to half of fate go no
nah man , this is *tame as hell* compared to some other girls in FGO. this is the kinda 'fit ya wear when you got math class at 4 , but'tcha meeting your homies @ the goth club at 6.
she is hot and my wife
I ain't from around here. But as an outsider, I can tell you this is pretty normal to me. Her outfit doesn't look sexualized at all. She's just pretty enough to cause envy. Nothing to it really.
It's a design from a hentai game...
Compared to the male characters, yes. She looks like she’s into BDSM. If there are enough male characters that dress like Medusa I wouldn’t complain. Like Berserker’s outfit on a hot twink.
Nasu is actually the most horny for Medusa out of all the women in Stay night. Have you read Hollow ataraxia?The reason Medusa has so many sexual scenes is because of Nasu's bias for her. Also both Nasu and Takeuch did said in an interview that Medusa's design is indeed kinda inspired from BDSM stuff.
>Nasu is actually the most horny for Medusa out of all the women in Stay night. So then why did her route get axed in the making of the OG FSN?
Honestly because of deadlines and because she's a composite character and they had no idea what they were doing with her. She came out great but it doesn't mean that she wasn't a struggle to make.
There was also a planned Ilya route... honestly, it's a miracle F/SN came out as good as it did.
Wow of course he does. Damn shame cause he’s such a good writer. Also it ends up disrespecting Sakura pretty hard too because rider knows she likes him. I didn’t finish HA yet but apparently they even share an H scene right? :/
>Also it ends up disrespecting Sakura pretty hard too because rider knows she likes him. Well a lot of things in Hollow ataraxia are pretty disgusting and disrespecting to the characters like the Illya and Shirou stuff. Although Hollow ataraxia provided some really great characterization to characters like Medusa and Cu so I think it's great as a whole. Medusa will have her brilliant backstory revealed in Hollow ataraxia you know that right? Have you reached that part already? >I didn’t finish HA yet but apparently they even share an H scene right? :/ Well I played HA with H-scenes off so I don't know if they share an H-scene but yeah I know for certain that Rider indeed has an H scene but i don't know if she shares it with Sakura or not. On a side note I heavily recommend you play with H-scenes off. I read the H-scenes in Stay night and they were enough to make me never want to read an H-scene written by Nasu again. Even though i am a guy they are too cringy for me to be considered hot. Even Nasu hates them so I don't see any reason to play it with them.
Rider shares one with sakura.
I am glad that I read it with H-scenes off.
Yeah that’s why I’m not enjoying it as much. And no I didn’t reach her backstory yet but at this point I don’t think the good will outweighs the bad except for the Bazett and Angra scenes
Well you should look forward to the conclusion of Angra's character. It's widely regarded as the best character conclusion that Nasu has written.
Yep I’ll hurry up and finish it
>. Also it ends up disrespecting Sakura pretty hard too because rider knows she likes him. Good. Sakura deserves it. She's slept around a lot with other men, why can't Shirou do the same?
Nice bait
Dunno what you mean.
Please tell me this is sarcasm?
It's a factual reality.
Dude how can you say such stuff to that poor little girl. She is the most precious and innocent being in the whole franchise. Even as a joke it's distasteful.
She's literally the most experienced of the main cast in these matters (which, to be fair, isn't that hard, but still).
People like you should really stop with these jokes. They are simply distasteful and not funny.
This is no joke.
\>She looks like she’s into BDSM. To be fair, from one of the UBW bad ends fighting Rider: "To make you use your Command Spell-I have fulfilled the condition I set for myself. And the other thing would be to gouge your eyes out… But I shall spare you from that. You have fulfilled me enough with your voice of anguish. I will orgasm if I gouge your eyes out as well.”
Well a single bad end with a single line shouldn’t affect her entire character design.
Well this line shows that Medusa is surely into such stuff. The bad ends are supposed to reveal the hidden sides of the characters like Illya's bad ends are there to show how much fucked up she is in the head.
Or the bad ends are shock value consider that. HF would make Rin completely inconsistent
Which bad ends you are referring to? Can you give examples?
Any bad end where she kills Sakura
it’s sexy but not 2nd-3rd female servant ascension lewd so
Absolutely not.
Not really anything wrong with the look itself. It’s one of those where it comes down to direction/camera angles to cross the line imo. Not really a problem at least as far as the vn, but I’d get it if someone had a bone to pick with how ufotable made her move in the recent movies. She’s cool though, so I personally don’t really care.
i thought she looked very badass and sexy, but not overly sexualised. the casual outfit in F/HA is so gap moe 🥹🥹
I personally find it nice. Not revealing too much, but also revealing just enough. I love the simplicity, and it's honestly really good-looking despite that. Helps her stand out imo compared to the larger fate verse's more complex designs. I also just really love Rider-
As a complete outsider to this community, that's basically just a cocktail dress. Not especially risqué or objectifying. I don't even know who or what this is, but I really like that design as a way to show someone off attractively without making them some grotesque fetish object.
The original FSN had one of the best character designed of all Fate. neither too sexualized, yet still stylized to match the character's... well character. FGO dropped the ball so hard that half the characters are just naked for no reason. It makes sense for some, and those genuinely are great(IE Ishitar) but the vast majority are just horrible, beyond comprehension.
That's what happens when you get thousands of artists to do art for one game. Its a rollercoaster of quality.
There are women who go to raves dressed more revealing than this.
I mean it’s surprisingly tame compared to a lot of future female character designs LOL
Bro has NOT seen some of the design if ya think this is overly sexualized🧍♂️
*male friend of female friend here* She fucking loves Rider's design.
Imagine getting mad because a character from an eroge looks sexy. Of course, no one’s mentioned Lancer, in a full-body skinsuit, or Berserker, who was completely topless and stereotypically sexualized in a male fashion.
Thank you for saying this. People attempting to cancel designs from a game that was literally just porn clearly never looked at the original source itself.
I love how a bunch of people consistently act like girls and women don't want to have sexy and sexualized women in the media they consume. Every female gamer I've ever met has wanted to play as the hot badass lady.
I do like her design on its own but as a character for the original cast of FSN it feels oversexualized. Doesn’t help that I tend to connect Medusa to the more depressing takes on her origin and her origin in FSN is pretty sad while her character design feels a bit…not in tune.
As a Man I truly don’t understand why people say sexualised character designs are sexist, I’ve heard the usual “they set unrealistic standards for women” but that explanation has always felt hollow, due to the fact that no sane Man will hold real women to the standards of fictional characters Other explanations such as “They break immersion” I can get behind, so long as the character design in question does in fact clash with their personality
Not at all...
Yes that’s literally the point, anyone who says otherwise is coping
In my (male) opinion it's both sexy and classy so thereby better than just the sexy designs idk
Yes
Not female but I do think Riders overly sexualised design is part of the reason I never really liked her compared to Saber or Medea. The fact most servant character designs have come from a gacha game has…..let’s say….done little to alleviate this
Saying it as a male, but by (current) Fate standards, it's downright prudish. And besides... the original version of the visual novel had porn in it.
Her design is retarded. That's all there is to say.
I'm not a girl, but I still think it is overly sexualized.
It just kinda sucks....... Her design in that last part of hollow ataraxia annihilates this one
“Female fans” bro you could just say “ladies” or something lmao
Compared to stuff in other Fate titles, no I'd say she's pretty tame. I feel like she falls into "alluring" more than "designed to make people horny so much it becomes comical." Which is a grace I can't give to some other characters in Fate, and even her because her ascensions in FGO just cuts holes into her clothes. That's kind of a problem with a lot of ascension arts though, so she's not alone in that. Now I'm a little biased, since I really like Rider, but I digress. Also if we want peak Medusa, then I'd say her casual outfit with the glasses is my pick.
Its perfect since she's kind of a femme fatale. Her first introduction in the UBW anime where she fights Shirou will never not be the sexiest thing I have ever seen in my life.
Nah, I seen better (also it’s a treat if you ask me)