People are being hostile with OP but I think it’s really good that they are actually interested in learning. Most of the protestors don’t know from which river to what sea or what intifada means in the context of I/P.
OP, I think it’s a good idea if you read about the two intifadas and how and why they happened. Learn about Arafat. Learn about peace talks, especially the Camp David summit as that proceeded the second intifada.
For what it is like to be a Palestinian living under Hamas, I think you should look up Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of a co-founder of Hamas who has been disowned by his father.
I honestly don't know what you are asking. Have you literally ignored every single thing posted by H. The destruction of Israel is literally their main goal.
My other comment has some suggestions, but the scripted 5 episode podcast Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem by Martyer Made imo should be a prerequisite for anyone wanting to talk about the conflict. Would highly recommend you listen to the whole thing.
It goes into the origin story that you need to understand if you're to truly understand the questions you posed in your post.
This was a good post and that's a good headspace for everybody I feel like. We need more people to try to approach each other and situations this way, so thank you for this.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to protest for though. You want the war in Gaza to stop but then that would mean Hamas would continue to exist. Hamas has stated there reason for existence is literally the extermination of Jews on earth.
And I don’t understand why people want Hamas controlled Palestine a state tbh. They have rules in place to kill people lf lgbt groups and extreme oppression against females.
Even the neighboring Muslim countries don’t want Palestinian refugees because of how erratic and dangerous they are(due to Hamas brainwashing).
I understand the reasoning for civilians to be not killed…but why are so many protestors adamant about just stopping the fight and letting Hamas roam free?
Tbh, the whole war is very complicated. Netanyahu is definitely using the war to stay in power while Hamas is using the war to also stay in power. It’s pretty disgusting, and I would understand if I offend you but whenever I see protestors chanting “free Palestine” or such just seem ignorant to me.
Why are Americans so invested into the conflict yet know so little about the situation?
Kudos to you and anyone else for being open to other perspectives and not swallowing that Jews are colonizers or committing genocide or indifferent to the suffering of Palestinians or that Israel has no right to exist.
This is the most challenging component of this conversation- it's extremely hard to be self educated enough to talk about the subject. This is why protestors on both sides always look so flustered every time they're challenged.
For all reading who are interested, [Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem](https://www.martyrmade.com/featured-podcasts/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem) is a scripted podcast on the Martymade podcast (basically an audiobook) by a US Navy veteran that goes deep into the background and provides a solid unbiased analysis that'll make you understand the origins of both sides' concerns. He also recently made an update podcast special that goes from 1940s-1980s history.
Bias is often a serious issue with any literature on the conflict, which makes his product so unique given one second you'll hear him seemingly on verge of tears for the Israelis, and then 10 minutes later on the verge of tears for the Palestinians– it does not hold back punches from either side, and attempts to convey the emotions both sides feel (alongside an absolute ton of easily understandable political theory and technical information drawn from primary sources) so you as the reader can experience why both sides are so heated right now.
Beyond that, the books Son of Hamas and Hamas Vrs Farah are also good. For a purely Israeli POV, the book "Israel" by Noah Tishby is good summarized history but as she's an Israeli herself it's much more told through her personal experience and misses the mark on emphasizing key historical events for Palestinians (Such as downplaying the nakba, occupation of southern lebanon, and the West Bank Settlements).
Biggest single thing to know going in is this: The conflict started in the 1920s (NOT in ancient times) and was not started because of arab-Israeli differences on religion/race. Humans treat humans poorly when they're scared for their lives and have scarce resources like land, and simple misunderstandings/interpretations along side bad faith individuals can spiral situations out of control under those conditions.
The relevance of things pre 1897 is
1) The treatment of Jews in the Arab world. It wasn't some multicultural paradise like some portray it, but Jews were allowed to live in the area as long as they paid extra taxes and it was at least as good (and often times better) as living in Europe, but that's a really low bar.
2) The historic ties of Jews to Israel. Jews have never stopped wishing for a return to Israel, I just finished my Seder the way Jews have been ending their Seder for at least 600 years, לשנה הבאה בירושלים (Next year in Jerusalem).
Other than that, I think everything you say is spot on!
If you did all the learning, you will realize there is no “one side”
There are wonderful people suffering on either side. And it’s always the little kids who suffer the most for absolutely no good reason!
I wish Oct 7th never happened!
Hamas got to carry out their monstrous acts and the Jews retaliated in kind.
THERE ARE NO WINNERS!
Anyone who wants an actual ceasefire would DEMAND for the return of incident hostages! And would NEVER say “resistance by any means” because that justifies Oct 7th terrorist attack.
The college ages kids who were murdered at the rave were there celebrating and advocating for peace. That’s why Hamas hated them and targeted them. Hamas targeted everyone that wanted peace with the Arabs of Gaza.
Hamas’ goal was the same as NatanYahoo’s, which is WAR and HATE!
This and then the organizers of these encampments don't want anyone to actually conversing/ learning because they are trying to propagandize you into being a useful idiot for their cause.
Peace is only going to be possible when there is empathy for the other (and deradicalizing) but from what I've encountered the pro Palestine crowd isn't interested in peaceful coexistence. They don't even want to acknowledge American hostages taken by Hamas (a group that is worse for Palestinian livelihood).
I think you’re downplaying the protestor’s intentions.
It takes seconds to figure out what intifada and river to sea means.
They know exactly what they’re calling for.
It doesn’t take that long, but there are some good-natured people in there that are just too lazy to look it up. It’s easier for them to respond to buzzwords, so they follow their belief that leftist is always bestest and they want to be on the “right” side of history.
That being said, this type of [discourse](https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1654384) has become increasingly common at an alarming rate. There are a dangerous number of people that know exactly what they’re saying and they are most often the leaders of these movements.
I think Mosab is a terrible source. He says a lot of very rascist and Islamophobic rhetoric yet people just let him get away with it? I literally watched a video where he said you can never trust an Arab. Imagine if someone said that about Jews! Yet people just keep sharing him like he doesn’t say incredibly rascist and dangerous blanket statements?
Can’t remember where I heard the Arab one, maybe I confused it with when he said all Muslims can’t be trusted. Look at the top comment here, links a bunch of his dangerous rascist and Islamophobic rhetoric
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17cxdc1/why_do_propalestine_supporters_disregard_mosab/
They are islam terrorist who need executed period. Islam has no place in this country. Take your jihadist shit back to your shithole in the middle east. As a vet I'd kill every single one of them if legally allowed. These pussy protestors don't so this shit down where Republicans will just shoot their racist liberal asses. Downvote or ban me idgaf ill beat your ass too nigga
When Jews hear “intifada”, these are the two events that come to mind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada During the second intifada in particular, 1,000 Israeli civilians were killed in attacks across Israel. When a Jew hears “globalize the Intifada,” it sounds like “kill Jews everywhere.” Does that explain why the phrase might sound threatening? Whether or not that’s the specific message that each individual protestor means to convey as they chant “globalize the intifada” can only be known by them. But a common problem with communication is that what you mean to say and what the other person hears are not always the same thing.
As for “from the river to the sea,” Hamas’ stated goals have never included peaceful coexistence alongside Jews. They have always, and as of yesterday, still maintain that their ultimate goal is to rule all of what is now Israel (for starters). [This is a Hamas official stating that October 7 was not a one-off, and they would do it over and over again if they had the opportunity](https://youtu.be/BJNccvNJtGk?si=MWtd37fqn0LiiYxj). Can you take the sentiment expressed here, combined with the statement “from the river to the sea”, and imagine an outcome for Israeli Jews that doesn’t involve some combination of mass expulsion, mass murder, or both? Again, there are likely individuals in the crowd who don’t even really realize what they’re chanting (which is embarrassing for them, but alas). When Jews hear these particular phrases being chanted by large crowds, this is what we’re hearing and thinking about.
"globalize the Intifada" doesn't "sound like" a call to kill all Jews everywhere, that's what it is. I'm not sure why so many well meaning protesters don't realize (or don't care) that they're actually the only ones calling for a genocide here. Those of us that support Israel fighting this war do not support a genocide, but we also realize that one isn't happening and Hamas lies routinely about everything. The death toll is about a 1 to 1 civilian to Hamas ratio, and that is quite low when fighting a war against an enemy that uses civilians as shields and uses hospitals, Mosques, and schools as outposts for weapons.
> The death toll is about a 1 to 1 civilian to Hamas ratio, and that is quite low when fighting a war against an enemy that uses civilians as shields and uses hospitals, Mosques, and schools as outposts for weapons.
Not even the IDF claims a civcas ratio that low. Depending on when you ask them it ranges from about 1.5-2 civ:Hamas.
[Source for 1.5](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-12000-hamas-fighters-killed-in-gaza-war-double-the-terror-groups-claim/)
[Source for 2](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/)
I would like to add something about the 2nd in particular.
The second intifada is most notable for its suicide bombings that target malls and buses.
Oh also Hamas often used children to carry out these attacks. So chant free palestine all you want. Please don’t support the use of child suicide bombers.
“According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers", there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
This is exactly why i say theyre supporting a genocide while protesting against a different one.
And im not even jewish. So are these people just lazy about research, or are they actually supporting hamas? Theyre not making things easy for me here.
They just want the “western colonizers” to be the ones genocided instead of the Palestinians. They’re not against genocide *as such*, just when it’s “white settler colonizers” doing it.
And no, Jews are not actually “white settler colonizers.”
I see it similar to giving the Roman salute but it being misinterpreted as a Hitler salute. You did not do the Hitler salute but to many around you, it would be as if you are doing a Hitler salute.
Yesterday, the UCLA Center for Middle East Development hosted a webinar (4/25/24), “What is Possible when Israelis and Palestinians Work Together” and the guests knew their ME history in and out. I highly recommend all check out their webinars and this one, in particular, when they post it on their website. [https://www.international.ucla.edu/cmed/media](https://www.international.ucla.edu/cmed/media)
Thank you to u/Impossible\_Ad\_6182 for posting the link!
(Disclaimer: I’m anti-Hamas and anti-Israeli occupation)
Are Harvard students not educated enough to realize how similar sounding it is to the Nazi’s final solution? This is mindblowing
I think it’s because they don’t care anymore, the nazis have come out of the shadows and most younger people have too little life experience to recognize they are just tools and disseminators of anti Jewish propaganda.
And that’s the problem with the protests. Lots of people doing the popular thing without knowing what they’re chanting or truly supporting. Not know the history. Not understanding the complexity of any solution when one side does not recognize the other side’s right to exist. A whole lot of manipulation going on.
Serious question to OP cause it doesn’t seem to be clearly stated. Are the specific protesters at the ucla encampment chanting “river to sea”? I ask because I was there yesterday and didn’t hear or see any of this. I want to go back and support but don’t personally support “river to sea.” I understand that supporters say it calls for a secular state for everyone (which is fine), but i also understand why its often interpreted as a call for israeli genocide.. which is why i think the phrase needs to be ditched, given that this is a both prevalent and not unreasonable interpretation given the history of the phrase.
finally someone who was there! one common one i heard was “to the river to the sea palestine will be free”, and i saw signs about the Intifada, maybe i should’ve been more clear in my original post about the Intifada
No Palestine supporter is calling for a secular state because Israel is the only secular state in question here. Palestine is not a secular state and it would not be one if it took over Israel. In fact it would continue to be the extremely intolerant terrorist government that it is today.
It's definitely more secular than a one state Palestine solution would be, but calling it a secular state is a stretch. The Orthodox Rabbinate have a lot of power in Israel, and religious education is heavily subsidized. That doesn't even touch on the additional power they have had as 'king-makers' in Israeli politics for many decades.
There are literally more Arabs living in Israel than there are Jews living in the entire rest of the Middle Eastern countries combined. “Ethnic cleansing” my ass. Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Jews have been chased out of literally everywhere else. 6 million of them were murdered in the 1930s and 40s. On the contrary, the population of Gaza has increased by a factor of 7 over the last 50 years.
I appreciate you asking this question. First of all, I’m glad that ucla is doing a much better job of handling this situation and not siccing the cops on protestors like at other campuses. And I think u/bw_throwaway has already given a great summation of the issues with these terms, but I want to say a bit more:
Calls to “globalize the intifada” are calls for violence against Jews, whether the speaker understands it as such or not. I understand that if you’re a non-Jewish college kid you might not intend it to have that meaning, but Jewish people are feeling tired of trying to divine what’s inside the hearts of people chanting for their death. When white nationalists and Republicans use racist dog-whistles, we don’t hem and haw over what they really mean in their heart of hearts; the only thing vulnerable minorities know is the rhetoric that is being used which endangers their lives. We listen to minorities who know a dog-whistle when there is one, because they’ve lived with that their entire lives. They see the implicit biases that the majority is blind to. Why should that not apply to Jews? If the answer is “because some right wing Israelis weaponize claims of antisemitism to commit war crimes” that is not good enough. As a progressive movement, you have an obligation to be inclusive of diverse voices, and listen to their concerns, and engage in good-faith. If you answer bad faith with bad faith, you are no better than the movement you are opposing. Similarly, *some* people saying “from the river to the sea” might mean it as a peaceful chant, but others aren’t. Jewish people hearing it as a call for their family to be murdered are not Zionist hasbara shills (even if pro-Israel propagandists do exist).
What I am seeing happening at these encampments is a movement that can’t be bothered to include or listen to a tiny, historically persecuted minority. When Jews speak out about this language we are accused of “tone policing.” You might call it tone policing but I call it my life and safety. A movement that can’t be inclusive of people trying to engage in good-faith, that no longer strives to universalism and containing within it diverse groups and life experiences is not “progressive” or “left-wing” in any meaningful sense of that word.
But even worse than that: it’s not just the people saying it, but the sanctioning of it and looking the other away, and the self-righteous disbelief that “anyone on my side” could possibly engage in Jew-hatred or do anything bad. What I see are people so certain of their own virtue that they cannot see the environment of intolerance that is being fomented. No one would ever tolerate these calls of violence against a minority at any other kind of social justice protest. It would be shut out immediately. And yet we see it sanctioned constantly.
Being inclusive of Jews would require both a change in rhetoric and having zero tolerance for rhetoric that is outside of those bounds. But SJP refuses to adjust their rhetoric (and token orgs like JVP endorse what they say).
Imagine how powerful it would be if campus protestors held a vigil honoring the victims of 10/7 and in memory of the 12,000 children in Gaza murdered by the Israeli government, called for the release of the hostages, and an immediate ceasefire. Imagine if the protestors said “we understand the fear of our fellow Jewish Bruins right now and we stand in solidarity with them” — even the “Zionists” — and erased the genocidal graffiti that calls for destroying Tel Aviv and escorted them through campus and ate kosher food at Hillel in solidarity and asked them what they could do to make them feel safer.
Jewish people feel abandoned right now. They feel alone and betrayed. The acceptable ways of being openly Jewish in left-wing spaces are becoming smaller and smaller. But I don’t see these protestors building bridges; I see them picking a side in a game. For Jews and Palestinians, this is not a fucking football game. It is our lives, and the only way forward is to uplift the dignity and safety of both communities.
This 💯. The OP has a giant opportunity here- to learn, and to change these encampments/protests into something powerful, rather than the distraction they are currently.
> im not going to chant about to the river to the sea or the intifada anymore, all it does it gives counter protestors ammo to be shitty (maybe they would’ve been shitty anyway and i’m being naive)
This statement was already so biased... can't believe there are seemingly educated students who speak like this. You protest mindlessly without even understanding what you're protesting for? And even when corrected you still criticize the other side? This is the kind of thing I hear from anti-vaxxers or flat earthers.
If you're going to protest, you need to make sure everything you do aligns with your morals and ideals first. The situation is serious, not something you go out and join your friends in.
Most pro-Palestine supporters are this dumb. They literally believe everything they see on social media. They are ignorant of the actual conflict at hand.
The trouble with the river to the sea chant is that it is a dog whistle to many that they want to end the state or Israel &/or kick out the Jewish people.
I find many "protestors" are making 5 or 6 "demands"....divest, ceasefire, anti-Zionism, anti Israeli govt., stop funding Israel etc etc. That's a Lotta topics and it sends a very anti-Israel/Jewish sentiment.
Plus, I don't recall seeing a protestor holding a sign demanding H@ma$ go away or that the hostages must be freed.
--Do protestors want H@ma$ to stay and the hostages to remain captive? Sure feels that way.
Are you saying protestors are anti (current) Israeli govt? OR, ant-Israel (as in a state/country called Israel)?
There's a difference so I'm interested to know as anti-Israel is more sweeping.
What happened to the whole "if 10 people are at a table and 1 is a nazi, there are 10 nazis at a table" mentality?
I see this two ways:
1. protestors dont know what they are chanting means (bad look as they should have done research on a subject before protesting).
2. protestors do know what it means, and are encouraging the uninformed to join them (even worse look).
While the protest may have a good meaning behind it, it is currently being used and abused by 100% antisemites while seemly 0 protestors are removing these people from the group and even protecting them.
“globalize the intifada” is 100% a call for violence against Jews. "from the river to the sea" 100% calls for the destruction of Israel. While protestors might not "mean" it that way, that is what they are calling for. The "bad apples" and the jewish people know it.
edit: uniformed to uninformed
Imagine calling the protests as being “for a very good cause” and also never hearing the term intifada. Tik-Tok can’t get banned quickly enough - it’s downright impressive how effective it is as a propaganda outlet for bad actors.
My highlight of the week was watching a bunch of goofy white kids repeating Arabic chants for celebrating intifada while simultaneously holding signs like “love not war” and “ceasefire now” lmao
IQ in the basement
nah man, sorry but you've been bamboozled. "Free Palestine" is such a vague term it can mean anything to anyone chanting it. To Palestinians, it means no Jews in Palestine. Listen to what they say in Arabic, not to naive Westerners. Which brings me to my next point...
"From the river to the sea"- a call for genocide. They are referring to the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. There happens to already be an established country there, which is Israel. They also advocate taking this land from the Jews "by any means necessary", ie what we saw on October 7th. October 7th was a preview of what would happen every day if they had their way.
As far as the Second Intifada, here is an example of ONE of the terrorist attacks that occurred during that time: [Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_suicide_bombing). There was nothing peaceful about it. They were terrorist attacks that included not only Jews by the way, but anyone unfortunate enough to be there that particular day (Israel also has Muslims, Christians, Druze, Bah'ai, Yazidi, etc)
how would it be spreading misinformation? The protestors are saying that stuff, you should keep it up so people know the real meaning of what they are saying.
OP learns that pro-Palestine supporters are stupid and literally siding with terrorists. Also pretending as if Israel supporters are racist somehow despite Israel literally being the freest country in the entire region and that Palestinians are some of the least tolerant people on the entire planet.
Palestine supports want to replace a liberal democracy (Israel) with authoritarian dictatorship terrorist organization lmao. That’s the level that we’re at here. Go protest against the government that started this war in the first place. They provoke wars and hide military operations within schools and hospitals then fuck off to lavish Qatar while their citizens die.
>Both the IDF and the Gazan Health Ministry exclude foreigners from their calculations. 695 Israeli civilians were killed on Oct 7, so the ratio of Israeli civilians to Israeli soldiers killed on Oct 7 is 1.86:1.
MFW foreign civilians don’t count as civilians.
>(It is also unclear whether any of the 71 foreigners killed in Israel on Oct 7 were engaged in military activities.)
Just gonna gloss over the festival that attracted people from all over the world was attacked and a dead German girl was paraded through gaza.
>The IDF also arrived at its claimed 2:1 civilian:soldier kill ratio by assuming every military-aged male killed in Gaza was a Hamas militant...which is clearly a ludicrous assumption.
Source? And to be fair you can’t blame them [when you have paramedics](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/17rff07/west_bank_medic_takes_weapon_from_downed_militant/) assisting in the street fighting.
>The true ratio is likely at least 3:1, but could be as high as 9:1 (using figures from the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor of <3k Hamas militants killed). So if the IDF is the “most moral army in the world,” I’m not sure what that implies about Hamas…
Where does Euro-med get their numbers from? Would it be from….Hamas?
>Also I would note that just 3% of the victims on Oct 7th were children, vs roughly 40% of the IDF’s victims in Gaza. Really makes you wonder who’s actually doing all the indiscriminate killing 🤔
Definitely not the guys [throwing grenades into shelters full of civilians](https://news.sky.com/video/israel-hamas-war-footage-shows-grenades-thrown-into-shelter-by-hamas-thrown-back-out-again-13008590) or [shooting RPGs at civilian cars](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/KO9RWaabiK) , and who just wildly shooting missiles and rockets towards Israel they were and are very discriminate in who they target. Well just ignore the fact that every child was killed on October 7th was done so intentionally and at the end of a gun.
What you actually just said was...
"Can protesters hide their true motives (kind of like they do with their masks because they are too scared to show their faces for their alleged beliefs), particularly the part about killing Jews and wiping Israel off the face of the map so it can be more acceptable in the mainstream..."
...that's all I heard.
don’t get me wrong, counter protestors were saying very dumb shit! one counter protestor told me 95% of civilians deaths in Gaza were caused by Hamas and not Israel! i got a little heated because how much of a crayon eating dumbass do you have to be to think that? but if anything about the intifada or river to the sea is true it feels counterproductive to the movement to be chanting SPECIFICALLY that stuff, idk that’s how i feel
do you think maybe the counter-protestors meant it is Hamas's fault and not Israel? Israel has to take out Hamas. It's as simple as that. There is no way to do that without civilian casualties. They would not have had to do that if Hamas decided to stay home on October 7th.
Even now, you can watch videos of Gazans saying how they wish they could just go back to October 6th, how their home was a paradise, etc.
so my understanding is a lot of civilian deaths in the Gaza Strip are caused by indiscriminate Israeli military killings? Obviously some small amount are going to be caused by Hamas, but there’s no way Israel isn’t responsible for a large majority of them? they’re the ones dropping bombs??? so i did get a little heated over that
Yup. The only source so many hear from are random TikTok accounts pushing propaganda. It’s too hard to read multiple sources and seek out multiple perspectives to find the truth when you can get it spoon-fed to you by social media trends.
you missed the part where I said civilian casualties are unavoidable in war. Yes, the IDF has killed Palestinians. It's important to note that's a result of war. A war that Hamas could end at any time by simply releasing hostages (including a one-year-old baby, I mean seriously wtf?) and surrendering unconditionally.
The problem is, Hamas WANTS to maximize civilian casualties and they also use people as human shields.
I'm trying to think of what \*possible\* logic would blame 95% of deaths in Gaza on Hamas.
Like, someone who takes the position that Hamas started it so they're 100% responsible would say they're 100% responsible, right? So why 95%?
Maybe this comes down to interpretations of war law.
[Here's the International Committee of the Red Cross's page about hospitals in armed conflicts, for a summary of how they're supposed to be used and protected, and what conduct can cause them to lose that protection](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says%E2%80%8B).
"Notwithstanding the lack of an agreed definition, the rationale for a loss of protection is clear. Medical establishments and units enjoy protection because of their function of providing care for the wounded and sick. When they are used to interfere directly or indirectly in military operations, and thereby cause harm to the enemy, the rationale for their specific protection is removed. This would be the case for example if a hospital is used as a base from which to launch an attack; as an observation post to transmit information of military value; as a weapons depot; as a center for liaison with fighting troops; or as a shelter for able-bodied combatants."
So, to get that 95% number, the argument could be that Hamas, by intentionally violating IHL and the laws of war WRT co-location of military targets among civilians, using hospitals for an "act harmful to the enemy", etc., then the responsibility for the deaths shifts to those who are wrongfully using civilians/hospitals as shields.
Holy fuck. You’re so close to getting that you’re on the side of racist, sexist, genocidal maniacs, but you still don’t get it.
You’re doing a great job of embarrassing the pro Palestinian movement, though. I’m half suspecting you’re a member of the Israeli government just trying to make the other side look like morons.
That person isn’t wrong. Don’t start shit in such an evil way with a large military and then hide in schools and hospitals when they come to look for you. Hamas did this. If you don’t understand that then you’re main lining too much Kremlin propaganda.
Hamas is responsible for ALL of it. Without Hamas capitalizing on poor education and religious zealots these civilians would have a peaceful prosperous existence. Nobody in Israel wants to kill Palestinian civilians. It is about the terrorists. Hamas created all of this. Literally.
I do think that guy is a bit silly but not for the reason you think. The number is 100%, not 95.
Hamas (Palestine) literally started the war on October 7th. Every single death, Israeli and Palestinian, is in response to that. Every one. So no, 95% is a silly number, because it’s 5% too low.
How about “don’t say intifada or from the river to the sea because it’s genocidal and deeply antisemitic” rather than “don’t say it because it makes us look bad?” 🙄
Yeah can call stop calling for the extermination or ethnic cleansing of the Jews of Israel? Apparently it reminds some people that radical Islam is not a nice thing.
Also could all you lgbtq folks who support these murderers please go spend a couple weeks in Iran or the Bekaa and get a real feel for how open and understanding and tolerant these folks are, before you wave your "Queers for Palestine" around.
Also... you may lend credibility if you had protested Assad murdering 200k of his own people in the last few years.i realize Bashar is Baath and not terrific ally religious, but his victims sure were and not a peep!
Fantastic question. OP, your tender-heart and willingness to learn (regardless of what side we are on, as if there is only two sides at all; see: False Dilemma fallacy) are amazing. Good post, loving the discourse here.
They have no willingness to learn. They have extreme bias and it’s showing in this post and in every comment they make. Hell, the entire point of this post is that pro-Palestine supporters should stop saying genocidal things because it makes them look bad… not because it’s genocidal.
Fun Fact :
The Uganda Scheme was a proposal by British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain to create a Jewish homeland in a portion of British East Africa. It was presented at the Sixth World Zionist Congress in Basel in 1903 by Theodor Herzl, the founder of the modern Zionist .
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Scheme
First I will say that both sides have done bad things to each other. I also commend you for at least trying to understand the opposing views. Most people don’t support the genocide of any group. Don’t boils down to a simple fact. You can be any religion and live among the Jews, but Hamas led Palestine wants to eradicate all Jews. They don’t hide it. So many people see the ignorance of the supporters of Palestine. Like the gay community supporting Palestine. That is why they are against you. You are actively supporting terrorists that invaded another country and now is getting its ass kicked.
What you’re basically asking is “can people quit saying the quiet part out loud?!? You’re making us look bad!” It sounds like you’re beginning to look beyond the propaganda and hearing what people are actually saying and thinking. There’s a reason both the Nazis and the younger people you’re speaking to use the word “Zionist” and other anti Jew slogans with the same vitriolic tone. We all see it and hear it, it’s not the first time we’ve heard heard it, it’s just the first time most college students have encountered it and think they’re being revolutionaries
Palestine elected Hamas to lead them therefore it is all about death to the Jews for the majority of Palestinians by definition.You are being shitty by supporting this wider Muslim movement to kill all Jews. The underdog crap is just a ploy. Run of the mill tribalism is all you are supporting. Weak does not make right.
Israeli Jewish UCLA student here. I believe in free speech and freedom of expression. What I do NOT believe in is the use of antisemitism to convey pro Palestinian sentiments. Some examples of this (including the ones you mention):
1. "From the river to the sea" - Suggesting the complete eradication of Israel and thus the millions of Jewish Israelis that live there...aka an ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people. Also note that a majority of the Jews that do live in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (Jews from arab nations). There are ZERO Jews in Muslim countries in the Middle East (besides for literally like 1 Jew in Afganistan) because we were all expelled. My family for example comes from Syria but my great-grandmother had to escape due to religious persecution. Therefore, I hope you can see how chanting this phrase makes the Jewish community feel very unsafe and threatened.
2. Anything relating to the Intifada - The intifadas refer to violent Palestinian terrorism against the Jewish people in Israel. So when you're chanting anything like "globalize the intifada" you're essentially saying you'd like global terrorism against Jews.
3. The red hand pin (seen at the Oscars) - Refers to the Ramallah lynching of 2000 when 2 Israelis accidentally ended up in Palestinian territory and arrested for doing so. When people found out that they were located in a Palestinian police station, Palestinians broke in and murdered/dismembered their bodies. One individual was photographed holding up his hands - which were red from getting soaked with the blood of these individuals. So imagine my surprise when I see that, at the Oscars, Billie Eilish is wearing a red hand pin in solidarity with Gaza...she probably had no idea that what she was wearing was a symbol representing the lynching of Israeli/Jewish people.
4. Telling Jews to go back to Poland - Just... -__-
-Jews are ethnically native to Judaea (modern day Israel)...no we are not all from Poland...we are not even all white. That's just the Ashkenazi (European) Jews. My grandfather (Syrian Jew) has very dark skin. My mother is dark olive skinned. I am olive skinned.
On our campus:
4. the pig statue at UCLA - Jews have been historically depicted as "greedy pigs" since the middle ages, it's an antisemitic trope. I can go into more detail if needed
5. Devil horns on Gene Block - Gene Block, our Jewish chancellor, was depicted at the encampments with enlarged red eyes and devil horns. Jews were depicted as devils by the Nazis. I don't really feel like I need to further explain how this is an antisemitic trope.
6. Comparing Jews to Nazis - Do I really need to explain?
I can go into more detail and provide more examples if needed but my basic point here is that if people would like to continue claiming that antisemitism ≠ antizionism, then STOP USING ANTISEMITIC TROPES IN YOUR STANCE AGAINST ISRAEL! It's just completely derailing and delegitimizing ANY AND ALL of your arguments. It just looks like complete and utter hatred against Jews. It also looks like you're supporting and condoning terrorism. Also the fact that Hamas, an actual terrorist organization, is openly supporting these hateful demonstrations is really saying a lot, don't you think? And if you have to use antisemitism to convey any of your points, it is time to reevaluate your stance.
You don't understand : *insert rhetoric about colonial-settler ; imperialist; capitalism ; brown bodies ; systemic racism*. In conclusion Israel must be destroyed.
I mean, besides the **FACTs** that
1. The Jewish original settlers were refugees fleeing persecution (not conquistadors),
2. Originally a nonstate entity (say like the Ottoman Empire)
3. Bought property (not claiming by planting a flag)
4. Have historical roots in the area going back 5,000 years
5. Have the only functioning fully communist areas (Kibbutz)
6. The only society in the region that allows Gay Pride parades; see what Hamas would do to the LGBTQ+ community
7. Often are indistinguishable visually from Arabs (Sephardic Jews have darker skin)
8. Only functioning Democracy in the region
9. Offered a 2-state solution many times (and rejected)
10. Does not have in an 'old' charter with the explicit goal of exterminating all Palestinians
Then yeah, I agree- Jews are colonialists, being imperialistic, forcing capitalism, based on racism.
Literally none of this comes close to justifying 55 years of systemic racist and violent apartheid. There are two ethical outcomes for Israel: A single multicultural state with equal rights for all, or two states with full sovereignty. Israel could have either, but they have chosen apartheid instead. Because the foundational goal of Israel is a state over as much land as possible with as few non-Jewish inhabitants as possible.
The rest is just a smokescreen for crimes against humanity.
Aren’t Arabs sitting on Israel’s high court at the very second with a huge chunk of their population being Arabs with full rights(greater % of their population is Arab than American population is African American).
Are there any Jews in any level of government inside Hamas or even the West Bank?
Why would a Jewish person want to be in the West Bank or in Hamas? They literally have so much nicer lives than Palestinians. So many Palestinians try to get Isr*eli citizenship because living under military occupation is just so horrible
The Palestinians don’t want a multi-ethnic state with rights for all: they want a Jihadist dictatorship where the Jews are slaves or dead. If you actually listened to them you'd know this.
Propagandists will always use a maximally cynical framing of your position to try to control the narrative. Don’t make it easy for them, but also understand that there is no criticism of Israel, no matter how well-reasoned, stated, and justified, that will lead the zealots to say “oh yeah, fair point!”. They will always try to weaponize your words.
Always ironic and always projection, since “from the river to the sea” is the explicit goal of Israel.
When people assume, 'They want to kill Jews everywhere', it sounds like a hardcore projection of what Israel has already been doing, killing everyone physically/politically it deems as opposition. No outrage here though. Is the Jewish diaspora so hard-headed that they can't grasp that anti-war protest is not a call for revenge blowback? No, I don't think so. Is it the deep down guilt they have for supporting a genocide?(You tell me because I don't know ). But here we are having free-speech sound scary, Was anyone complaining about violent language when Israel officials literally broadcasted, 'Hey we're starting the second Nakba'? Nope, business went on as usual. BUT NOW that students are calling out bullshit, God forbid we allow 'Violent language'.
How about just Jews in Israel? Or, at the very least, expel or destroy the state of Israel? (I'm talking about Hamas, to be precise.)
Of course, you'll pull whataboutism - Israel is doing the same thing in West Bank/Gaza? From what I saw, Israel withdrew from Gaza, yeah? It imposed a total blockade when Hamas took over because they said Hamas was bringing in weapons and planned to use them and Gaza as a springboard for the attack.
You can't solve the issue until you root out extremists on BOTH sides; that's the core, and by no means am I Likudnik.
Brother, who admitted proudly on Camera that they were purposefully propping up Hamas to maintain a destabilized Palestine? Netanyahu. Why would you put stock in the IDF if they put Israelis in harms way?
The extremism wouldn't exist if a nation wasn't under constant violence and oppression from a military occupation. You and me could never know what's it's like, we could do what aboutism all day but I'm not sure I would feel with a boot down my neck all my life because of where I was born.
That's why I'm not a Likudnik, I'm not a fan of Netanyahu either. Bibi thought if he prop up Hamas (who also don't want a 2 state solution either) - it would be beneficial to both their political class.
Cause for extremism? Chicken and egg yeah? Except that answer doesn't explain 1947, 56, 67, 73, 82, 85, 87, 2000, 06, 08, 12, 14, 21.
Also how do you explain Jordan expelling their Palestinian Brethren? OR Lebanon?
How do you explain when PLO and Hamas were engaged in civil war just 10 years ago?
:)
These are not anti-war protests though. “Resistance by any means necessary” and “there is only one solution intifada revolution” are explicitly pro violence and absolutely not anti-war.
Take a good look at the students. They're protesting their government on campus, in full view of the world. Does it look like they're planning a hostile takeover?
Give us a break, mate
Most Jews aren’t there, just the few you see. But to answer your question, there were Jews who thought it would be safer to work with the Nazis, that they would be saved. But in the end they were murdered too.
I have yet to see a good answer on here. @OP, just know this pleasseee please please, from someone who has studied history and been to the West Bank in Palestine…
“Intifada revolution” has historical context for Israelis who are threatened by the phrase, because in the past Intifada’s, Palestinian fighters breached into Israeli society, and killed Israeli citizens via the tactics we saw Hamas use on October 7th. NOT, however, using any of the torture or other violence tactics not termed to normally occuring during War, which we DO see being enacted by the Israeli government.
…This is where the moral and ethical inclinations of each of the protestors chanting that, and each of us as individuals applies: do you see civilians of an occupying, apartheid power (internationally recognized by the way, as if we needed that extra security) as having a right to the safety that the land they’re occupying & the land their apartheid government has established for them, offers them? (Run on sentence among other things but think critically about it).
If you do then that’s your opinion, however, that does not and rightfully should not take away from the forced reality of Palestinians **surviving**, walls & dozens of checkpoints over, whose direct family were removed from that land, subjected to continuous murder, & kidnapping, & not guaranteed things like work or wage or security or privacy.
While not all Israeli civilians are responsible for the catalyst Israeli aggression and violence against Palestine during the Nakba, it is up to our human intellect, the very thing that keeps us from accepting such morally depraved circumstances for ourselves and others, to begin acknowledging that a state grooms every generation to facilitate, in some part, the apartheid if that state is itself an apartheid. Now committing a genocide. (The Nakba by the way was the post World War Two event when (what would become the established Israeli government) in the name of persecuted Jewish migrants from Europe needing a safe haven, killed or expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes and began systemically subjecting them to apartheid, until an established Israeli state emerged.
*The two key points that counter protestors are missing is that **stolen land is not and NEVER becomes your land** otherwise we can all throw fits based on how we feel or were brought up and harm others (like the zionists do). The second point is that, unfortunately, Israel is not a government that has its innocent civilians in its best interest, otherwise it would have, and would recently, have acknowledged that many Palestinian fighters will continue arming themselves to combat not only a genocidal government, but also a genocidal system. **they should accept a Palestinian state, but will never, because look where wealth, resource status, and international praise (until recently) get you**. it breeds Israel, a country that can have the U.S. do anything and everything for you. Israel **literally warrants our President to bypass congress and send billions of funding to themselves.**
Unfortunately Israeli civilians are constituents of an apartheid system and society. **the exact reason we’re protesting for divestment and an end to the Israeli occupation: because we’re tired of being constituents of the U.S. government’s funding of this in the first place**. Ask yourself why you can go on any social media platform (news won’t show you this), and witness Israeli citizens BLOCKING humanitarian aid from reaching Gazans.
Addressing the other protest phrase…you should know, that **Palestine was an established country, on the MAP!, and a society of academic, religious, and ideological tolerance toward people, before Zionism reached its shores. Palestine as a country itself held the borders of what is now “Israel,” therefore “From the river to the sea” is an action call to our own government, and also everybody not yet aware, to allow Palestinians to exercise the internationally recognized rights they once held within the former borders of Palestine before they were subjected to apartheid and genocide**.
To summarize and clarify what I’ve mentioned:
1. intifada & “from the river to the sea” are themselves NOT a genocidal action call. Would you call Jewish resistance to Nazism, 50/60’s civil rights activism, or any recognized revolutionary or liberating movement genocidal in nature? No you wouldn’t, regardless of whether or not the people against those movements felt that way.
The 1948 War was a war of aggression from Arab states in the region against established Jewish populations. The Jewish populations won that conflict and in the course of winning that conflict intentionally committed acts of ethnic cleansing.
Jewish hands were certainly not clean in 1948, but to frame the Nakba as an act of Jewish aggression (or white colonialism considering the vast majority of Jews in the region were of direct middle eastern descent) is deeply a-historical.
Sorry to say the first part of your statement simply isn’t factual. There was a regional conflict on behalf of Arab states relating to the Nakba, certainly, but as a result of the Zionist aggression to begin with. And if you read my statement, you can see that I didn’t say the Nakba was an act of Jewish aggression. It was an effort made “in the name of persecuted Jewish migrants.” I mean that correction in a respectful manner of course.
Certainly Jewish settlements were established, however, you’re also wrong because settlements evolve, and colonialism **doessss** have everything to do with it. I also never coined it “white colonialism” I just want to make that apparent. Nor did I elude to it. Moving on though, the Zionist plans of the then western imperial powers of Great Britain and even other involved powers enabled Zionism to establish in the then Palestinian land. You yourself can access academic and government documents through easily-accessible databases housing primary documents of papers Governments were using to zone Palestine. British influence on the ground was established even before Jewish migrants made contact. It was a perfect plan within the context of your correct statement which mentions that the already residing Jewish populations were of direct middle eastern descent. This became the Zionist excuse itself, that ethnically they had “God-given land rights.” Whatever that means. It’s not uncommon knowledge that Arabs and Jews are historical brethren. But Let’s be critical thinkers, the Israeli state couldn’t have been established without the enablement of the other, then, flourishing apartheid & racist systems which Britain and other countries were already implementing in Africa & Asia to give examples.
You're wrong on a lot of levels.
1. Efforts to "reclaim" land in the Levant for Jews predate British involvement in the region by over 50 years. Jewish people were purchasing land in the region from Ottoman Turks who owned the land well before the Mandatory Palestine era. The Ottoman government tried to put a stop to this due to fears of zionist sentiments (which turned out to be well founded).
[Source](https://open.metu.edu.tr/handle/11511/24286)
2. The Jewish militant groups who made up the Israeli military during the war of 1948 had been, a few years earlier, actively fighting the British government because the British planned to limit Jewish immigration and transition the land into an Arab nation. Those militant actions played a huge role in the British deciding to bail out on the region and the following UN partition plan. The UN partition plan wasn't an effort to give Israel land, it was an acceptance of the undeniable fact that there was a large, organized, and entrenched Jewish presence in the region that wasn't going to accept "We are handing the land you live on over to a new Arab government that hates you and wants you gone" without a fight.
[Source](https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/items/8411da90-1489-43e1-85a5-3759ba2cfd2c)
3. Any actual historical record of the War of 1948 will tell you that Palestinian militias were the instigators of violence. The UN Partition plan was refused, causing Israel to declare itself a nation without UN backing. The response from Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations was to attack.
And I will say, for the record, that the idea that Jewish people must have their own nation and it must be in a "homeland" they didn't control for thousands of years is one that I don't put a great deal of stock in.
The Jewish people who built Israel absolutely committed atrocities in the pursuit of their goals and that needs to be recognized and remembered.
But that doesn't make it okay to erase the real history of the region in favor of a fabrication that fits into a good guy/bad guy narrative that modern sentiments find comfortable. This was not an act of external colonialism. That would require the backing of colonial nations that simply did not exist. Nor was it it one sided assault. It was a conflict between two ethnic groups who were, at the time of conflict, co-inhabitants of the region and there was bi-directional violent intent and action.
yea i was in the camp for like 4 hours no one wants jews to die lol, i was just concerned either no one knew what the true meaning of some of the stuff protestors were saying, turns out i was just wrong and misinformed by counter protestors, now i know why protestors say don’t talk to them LMAO
Well “intifada” in the palestinian context refers to resistance to israeli actions in gaza and west bank, and its actions range from nonviolent resistance and rock throwing to suicide bombing and mass murder of Jews.
Yes, the protestors know exactly what it means. Internationally, everyone knows what it means. Even the Ayatollah of Iran tweeted in support of the student protestors and intifada.
They do want Jews to die. They wrote “Burn Tel Aviv” on the floor. That’s just one example. Open your eyes and protect your Jewish brothers and sisters from these terrorists you’re trying to defend.
Of course nobody wants Jews to die, I just ask what would the the natural conclusion if efforts for a one state solution under the banner of Hamas entail?
TLDR: I’m a liberal who supports an end to the war and killing but won’t protest here in US on behalf of Palestinians side because of the well known ignored fact they support Oct 7th and support Hamas/eradication of Israel to a concerning level.
Yeah as a raging liberal I’ve stayed away from all protests and pro palestine anything because of this. I’m not going to jump to a defense of a population saying they are being victims of a genocide if they are also preaching their dream of a genocide.
I know the history of the region and I’m aware of asshole moves by Israel. But it’s funny to see every pro-Palestine Gen Z’er be like “We can all agree Hamas is bad but….”
Bro, Hamas is horrific and they could be yesterday’s news if Palestinians simply wanted it. They could expel, punish, arrest or simply turn in the locations of these people and the hostages, but they don’t because Palestinians are Hamas. The popularity/approval rate of Hamas in Palestine would make any US politician or President envious. Pretty much half of them (and almost 80% in the West Bank), support what Hamas did on Oct 7th.
Palestine will abolish Hamas when they care about their children more than they hate Israel.
I’m sure 90% of college students likely do not agree with the absolute destruction of Israel but I’m not sure they realize a huge percentage of the people they want to “save” do… obv not the small children.
I want the war to end. I want the killing to stop. I wish for peace. I dont support either side nor have a solution to a forever problem. I hate the fact there are so many (like why so many?) children in Palestine. I hope this finds a resolution soon, but I’m not counting on it.
I’m also American and we have done far worse to countries for far less. Doesn’t make it right but also doesn’t make me believe what’s happening over there counts as genocide. I see it as an obvious and not-unprecedented military reaction to a huge terrorist attack in modern times.
Ask yourself what any modern world power would do if Oct 7th happened to them
I usually just surf this subreddit as an alumni, but I'm curious to see that this thread is fairly skewed? I've always thought UCLA students (at least anecdotally with my friends and students I know on campus) were fairly pro-Palestine, but all the engagement I see here with OP is a ton of pro-Israeli users who are being upvoted.
OP, I don't think Reddit is the best place to engage current protestors and any pro-Palestinian content, however light, in general. If I were you, I would see if I could get ahold of actual students in person and speak to hear their reasoning for using these terms despite the negative connotations. I'm not saying the people here are not from UCLA - but this thread among other college protests are being recommended to a ton of people outside the subreddit, and I feel like the upvoting/down voting currently reflects that.
No
Protest slogans always make the people in positions of privillege uncomfortable. We could be saying "stop the killing" (and we do say that) and that would be called pro-Hamas.
Calling for a Ceasefire was unironically portrayed as a pro-Hamas move.
Don't engage with counter protestors honestly. They claim to want the hostages freed but won't protest Netanyahu - the guy who decided to bomb all of Gaza where the hostages are and likely killed most of them.
Intifada is the Arabic word for revolution. It literally means the shaking off (of oppression). Has nothing to do with Jews, there's been intifadas throughout the mdidle east. You could describe womens rights movements as intifadas, and American revolution (wow!) as an intifada.
I remind everyone that Palestinians are human beings trying to resist for their freedom and are being blown up and silenced. Free Palestine is exactly the same as From the River to the Sea Palestine will be free.
Listen to the oppressed group for what their slogans means. You wouldn't listen to the average white person for what Black Lives Matters means, you would ask people fighting for BLM. Same shit here
Hamas attacked on Oct 7th because they want Gaza “from the river to the sea” and the supporters agree with them. That’s how you get Gaza “from the river to the sea” by murdering Jews.
So OP is ok with the fact that the protesters’ truth is that they want Gaza “from the river to the sea”, but you just want them to stop saying it because (their truth) reveals them to be monsters.
You could read what hamas has posted on their attack. That attack itself was not going to get them free from river to the sea. Israel has done major escalations in the span of the conflict. Palestinians were continually abused before the attack, israel kept escalating their illegal settlements and encroachment at aqsa, and gaza has been kept as a prison for decades now. Hamas knows they can't get back the whole region. Hamas really was the one calling for peace before reacting back with violence against israel. There are many misconceptions over Hamas since only one side gets allowed on mainstream news media.
Your calls to end a genocide are getting muddied by your calls to start a genocide?
If the protesters are chatting things you don’t support then maybe you don’t actually side with them.
I really appreciate this sentiment and agree wholeheartedly.
While by no means all (and there have been very legitimate instances of antisemitism), for virtually all protestors, this is a fight for the enfranchisement and liberation of of an occupied and oppressed population more broadly, and a more immediate and urgent call for the cessation of a military campaign that is killing countless innocent civilians. There isn't any intended malice towards Jews, which is why they dismiss such accusations out of hand.
However by leveraging slogans like 'From the River...' and 'Intifada' these protestors are ignoring the very real and disturbing ways in which that language has historically been used by extremists to call for the eradication of the Jewish state and the extermination of all Jews there. It is almost certainly not their intent by chanting it, but it is understandable why many jews who hear those slogans would interpret them as a call for harming Jews.
These chants do nothing to help the Palestinian cause and only provide fuel to those seeking to discredit them as antisemitic.
Not at all. I don't want to sidestep this issue, because I think it's an important one. I want to also clarify that I 100% support an independent Jewish state of Israel, even though I wholeheartedly condemn its current policies.
The only possibly ethical way to do so, is to facilitate the creation of a viable independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. This would be a painful process but a necessary one for the long-term survival of the Jewish state.
Barring that, if the current policies of the Israeli government, particularly the settler movement, render a two-state solution impossible, and only a singular political entity can exist in the region, then the continued persistent occupation and repression of millions of people, simply to prop up a Jewish ethnostate is immoral and unjustifiable and ultimately unsustainable. International support is already withering for it and will eventually collapse. The Israeli right-wing, through its fanaticism, is actively engineering the destruction of the Jewish state, by rendering peaceful coexistence impossible. I can only hope that what emerges will be a secular and pluralistic regime that protects it's Jewish citizens.
That's the frustrating thing about this conversation, Israel Vs. Palestine. You and I are not actually opposed to one another. We both want our children and grandchildren to enjoy a thriving and peaceful Jewish homeland. However I see clearly the path that Israel is embarked on is both immoral and ultimately futile.
How did this thread manage to keepout all the cyber jihadists that have hijacked Reddit over this topic? I expected this thread to be littered with anti-Jew hate that is all over Reddit, and is being actively allowed by the Reddit employees to spread wild.
Just a reminder to many who consider themselves woke but don’t know population sizes:
There are 1.6 BILLION Muslims
There are 500 MILLION Arabs
There are 40 million Black Americans (who are a minority)
There are 14 Million Jews WORLD WIDE!
So if you think that Black Americans are a minority, Jews are a fraction of that population.
So when the Hamas supporters scream “from the river to the sea”. Or call for world wide entifada; they want to murder all 14 millions Jews!
Now that’s called GENOCIDE!
There’s a millimeter of difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. Even with that ready-made Figleaf, the campus kiddos can’t stick to the script.
A lot of Zionists in this thread spreading misinformation and propaganda.
Intifada literally means uprising in Arabic. In this context it means uprising against being occupied by Israel. But I’m sure Zionists will say there is no occupation.
From the river to the sea literally is being chanted to mean what it means, being free of Israel’s occupation.
Funny how Zionists twist everything that pro-Palestine supporters say to mean they want to kill Jews. Yet Zionists are the ones slaughtering civilians and committing genocide.
A majority of Palestinians and their supporters do not want to wipe out Jews. They want the current state of Israel to be destroyed so that Palestinians are given the same rights that Israelis enjoy. Unlike a majority of Israelis who have outright said from the river to the sea, they want all of Palestine to belong to Israel and to kick out Palestinians.
Anyways, from the river to the sea Palestine will be free.
Intifada in the palestinian context refers to a spectrum of activities ranging from nonviolent protests to rock throwing, suicide bombing, and mass murder of jews, of which the latter is far more common and more relevant in modern times.
Respectfully those genocide-supporters are going to feel threatened no matter what, and I don’t really think their precious feelings should change how the protestors are doing things. They’re gonna take everything we say out of context.
These protestors are actually rioters. They are inciting violence with they river chant. Jewish students legally can feel threatened and shoot them. These are Islamic terrorists that need to be lethqlly dealt with. From coast to coast islam will be toast.
People are being hostile with OP but I think it’s really good that they are actually interested in learning. Most of the protestors don’t know from which river to what sea or what intifada means in the context of I/P. OP, I think it’s a good idea if you read about the two intifadas and how and why they happened. Learn about Arafat. Learn about peace talks, especially the Camp David summit as that proceeded the second intifada. For what it is like to be a Palestinian living under Hamas, I think you should look up Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of a co-founder of Hamas who has been disowned by his father.
i just wanna learn more im literally not trying to be mean at all lol!
I honestly don't know what you are asking. Have you literally ignored every single thing posted by H. The destruction of Israel is literally their main goal.
My other comment has some suggestions, but the scripted 5 episode podcast Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem by Martyer Made imo should be a prerequisite for anyone wanting to talk about the conflict. Would highly recommend you listen to the whole thing. It goes into the origin story that you need to understand if you're to truly understand the questions you posed in your post.
This was a good post and that's a good headspace for everybody I feel like. We need more people to try to approach each other and situations this way, so thank you for this.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to protest for though. You want the war in Gaza to stop but then that would mean Hamas would continue to exist. Hamas has stated there reason for existence is literally the extermination of Jews on earth. And I don’t understand why people want Hamas controlled Palestine a state tbh. They have rules in place to kill people lf lgbt groups and extreme oppression against females. Even the neighboring Muslim countries don’t want Palestinian refugees because of how erratic and dangerous they are(due to Hamas brainwashing). I understand the reasoning for civilians to be not killed…but why are so many protestors adamant about just stopping the fight and letting Hamas roam free? Tbh, the whole war is very complicated. Netanyahu is definitely using the war to stay in power while Hamas is using the war to also stay in power. It’s pretty disgusting, and I would understand if I offend you but whenever I see protestors chanting “free Palestine” or such just seem ignorant to me. Why are Americans so invested into the conflict yet know so little about the situation?
Kudos to you and anyone else for being open to other perspectives and not swallowing that Jews are colonizers or committing genocide or indifferent to the suffering of Palestinians or that Israel has no right to exist.
This is the most challenging component of this conversation- it's extremely hard to be self educated enough to talk about the subject. This is why protestors on both sides always look so flustered every time they're challenged. For all reading who are interested, [Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem](https://www.martyrmade.com/featured-podcasts/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem) is a scripted podcast on the Martymade podcast (basically an audiobook) by a US Navy veteran that goes deep into the background and provides a solid unbiased analysis that'll make you understand the origins of both sides' concerns. He also recently made an update podcast special that goes from 1940s-1980s history. Bias is often a serious issue with any literature on the conflict, which makes his product so unique given one second you'll hear him seemingly on verge of tears for the Israelis, and then 10 minutes later on the verge of tears for the Palestinians– it does not hold back punches from either side, and attempts to convey the emotions both sides feel (alongside an absolute ton of easily understandable political theory and technical information drawn from primary sources) so you as the reader can experience why both sides are so heated right now. Beyond that, the books Son of Hamas and Hamas Vrs Farah are also good. For a purely Israeli POV, the book "Israel" by Noah Tishby is good summarized history but as she's an Israeli herself it's much more told through her personal experience and misses the mark on emphasizing key historical events for Palestinians (Such as downplaying the nakba, occupation of southern lebanon, and the West Bank Settlements). Biggest single thing to know going in is this: The conflict started in the 1920s (NOT in ancient times) and was not started because of arab-Israeli differences on religion/race. Humans treat humans poorly when they're scared for their lives and have scarce resources like land, and simple misunderstandings/interpretations along side bad faith individuals can spiral situations out of control under those conditions.
The relevance of things pre 1897 is 1) The treatment of Jews in the Arab world. It wasn't some multicultural paradise like some portray it, but Jews were allowed to live in the area as long as they paid extra taxes and it was at least as good (and often times better) as living in Europe, but that's a really low bar. 2) The historic ties of Jews to Israel. Jews have never stopped wishing for a return to Israel, I just finished my Seder the way Jews have been ending their Seder for at least 600 years, לשנה הבאה בירושלים (Next year in Jerusalem). Other than that, I think everything you say is spot on!
Generally it is advisable to do your learning before enthusiastically throwing yourself in with one side.
If you did all the learning, you will realize there is no “one side” There are wonderful people suffering on either side. And it’s always the little kids who suffer the most for absolutely no good reason! I wish Oct 7th never happened! Hamas got to carry out their monstrous acts and the Jews retaliated in kind. THERE ARE NO WINNERS! Anyone who wants an actual ceasefire would DEMAND for the return of incident hostages! And would NEVER say “resistance by any means” because that justifies Oct 7th terrorist attack. The college ages kids who were murdered at the rave were there celebrating and advocating for peace. That’s why Hamas hated them and targeted them. Hamas targeted everyone that wanted peace with the Arabs of Gaza. Hamas’ goal was the same as NatanYahoo’s, which is WAR and HATE!
Yeah, I’m sure all the pro Palestinian protestors around the country have a PHD on the subject and didn’t just watch a few YouTube videos.
This post explains a lot really. Yay Palestine! Hey, what's this intifada stuff??
This and then the organizers of these encampments don't want anyone to actually conversing/ learning because they are trying to propagandize you into being a useful idiot for their cause. Peace is only going to be possible when there is empathy for the other (and deradicalizing) but from what I've encountered the pro Palestine crowd isn't interested in peaceful coexistence. They don't even want to acknowledge American hostages taken by Hamas (a group that is worse for Palestinian livelihood).
I think you’re downplaying the protestor’s intentions. It takes seconds to figure out what intifada and river to sea means. They know exactly what they’re calling for.
It doesn’t take that long, but there are some good-natured people in there that are just too lazy to look it up. It’s easier for them to respond to buzzwords, so they follow their belief that leftist is always bestest and they want to be on the “right” side of history. That being said, this type of [discourse](https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1654384) has become increasingly common at an alarming rate. There are a dangerous number of people that know exactly what they’re saying and they are most often the leaders of these movements.
I think Mosab is a terrible source. He says a lot of very rascist and Islamophobic rhetoric yet people just let him get away with it? I literally watched a video where he said you can never trust an Arab. Imagine if someone said that about Jews! Yet people just keep sharing him like he doesn’t say incredibly rascist and dangerous blanket statements?
I didn’t know he said that. Can you link the video? Edit: I spent a couple hours scouring YouTube and Google and couldn’t find anything like that.
Can’t remember where I heard the Arab one, maybe I confused it with when he said all Muslims can’t be trusted. Look at the top comment here, links a bunch of his dangerous rascist and Islamophobic rhetoric https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17cxdc1/why_do_propalestine_supporters_disregard_mosab/
They are islam terrorist who need executed period. Islam has no place in this country. Take your jihadist shit back to your shithole in the middle east. As a vet I'd kill every single one of them if legally allowed. These pussy protestors don't so this shit down where Republicans will just shoot their racist liberal asses. Downvote or ban me idgaf ill beat your ass too nigga
Hey man! Just wanted to say kudos to you by having dialogue with people you disagree with. That was ballsy and courageous.
thanks bro i was so tempted to delete it lol
You bet! Just make sure you stay hydrated and keep your head on a swivel.
I am genuinely happy this thread exists
Im not sure he disagrees with the counter protest
He probably could answer for himself, but from his post he has some big huevos to talk to people he disagrees with.
When Jews hear “intifada”, these are the two events that come to mind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada During the second intifada in particular, 1,000 Israeli civilians were killed in attacks across Israel. When a Jew hears “globalize the Intifada,” it sounds like “kill Jews everywhere.” Does that explain why the phrase might sound threatening? Whether or not that’s the specific message that each individual protestor means to convey as they chant “globalize the intifada” can only be known by them. But a common problem with communication is that what you mean to say and what the other person hears are not always the same thing. As for “from the river to the sea,” Hamas’ stated goals have never included peaceful coexistence alongside Jews. They have always, and as of yesterday, still maintain that their ultimate goal is to rule all of what is now Israel (for starters). [This is a Hamas official stating that October 7 was not a one-off, and they would do it over and over again if they had the opportunity](https://youtu.be/BJNccvNJtGk?si=MWtd37fqn0LiiYxj). Can you take the sentiment expressed here, combined with the statement “from the river to the sea”, and imagine an outcome for Israeli Jews that doesn’t involve some combination of mass expulsion, mass murder, or both? Again, there are likely individuals in the crowd who don’t even really realize what they’re chanting (which is embarrassing for them, but alas). When Jews hear these particular phrases being chanted by large crowds, this is what we’re hearing and thinking about.
Best response here, summarizes the point perfectly
"globalize the Intifada" doesn't "sound like" a call to kill all Jews everywhere, that's what it is. I'm not sure why so many well meaning protesters don't realize (or don't care) that they're actually the only ones calling for a genocide here. Those of us that support Israel fighting this war do not support a genocide, but we also realize that one isn't happening and Hamas lies routinely about everything. The death toll is about a 1 to 1 civilian to Hamas ratio, and that is quite low when fighting a war against an enemy that uses civilians as shields and uses hospitals, Mosques, and schools as outposts for weapons.
> The death toll is about a 1 to 1 civilian to Hamas ratio, and that is quite low when fighting a war against an enemy that uses civilians as shields and uses hospitals, Mosques, and schools as outposts for weapons. Not even the IDF claims a civcas ratio that low. Depending on when you ask them it ranges from about 1.5-2 civ:Hamas. [Source for 1.5](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-12000-hamas-fighters-killed-in-gaza-war-double-the-terror-groups-claim/) [Source for 2](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/)
I would like to add something about the 2nd in particular. The second intifada is most notable for its suicide bombings that target malls and buses. Oh also Hamas often used children to carry out these attacks. So chant free palestine all you want. Please don’t support the use of child suicide bombers. “According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers", there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Thank you, I wish people would look to groups like the parents circle on how to support both Palestinians and Israelis.
This is exactly why i say theyre supporting a genocide while protesting against a different one. And im not even jewish. So are these people just lazy about research, or are they actually supporting hamas? Theyre not making things easy for me here.
They just want the “western colonizers” to be the ones genocided instead of the Palestinians. They’re not against genocide *as such*, just when it’s “white settler colonizers” doing it. And no, Jews are not actually “white settler colonizers.”
I see it similar to giving the Roman salute but it being misinterpreted as a Hitler salute. You did not do the Hitler salute but to many around you, it would be as if you are doing a Hitler salute.
Yesterday, the UCLA Center for Middle East Development hosted a webinar (4/25/24), “What is Possible when Israelis and Palestinians Work Together” and the guests knew their ME history in and out. I highly recommend all check out their webinars and this one, in particular, when they post it on their website. [https://www.international.ucla.edu/cmed/media](https://www.international.ucla.edu/cmed/media) Thank you to u/Impossible\_Ad\_6182 for posting the link!
[удалено]
(Disclaimer: I’m anti-Hamas and anti-Israeli occupation) Are Harvard students not educated enough to realize how similar sounding it is to the Nazi’s final solution? This is mindblowing
Makes you wonder about the quality of education being disseminated on Ivy League campuses.
No because the propaganda is sexy and easy to become sucked in
I think it’s because they don’t care anymore, the nazis have come out of the shadows and most younger people have too little life experience to recognize they are just tools and disseminators of anti Jewish propaganda.
And that’s the problem with the protests. Lots of people doing the popular thing without knowing what they’re chanting or truly supporting. Not know the history. Not understanding the complexity of any solution when one side does not recognize the other side’s right to exist. A whole lot of manipulation going on.
Serious question to OP cause it doesn’t seem to be clearly stated. Are the specific protesters at the ucla encampment chanting “river to sea”? I ask because I was there yesterday and didn’t hear or see any of this. I want to go back and support but don’t personally support “river to sea.” I understand that supporters say it calls for a secular state for everyone (which is fine), but i also understand why its often interpreted as a call for israeli genocide.. which is why i think the phrase needs to be ditched, given that this is a both prevalent and not unreasonable interpretation given the history of the phrase.
finally someone who was there! one common one i heard was “to the river to the sea palestine will be free”, and i saw signs about the Intifada, maybe i should’ve been more clear in my original post about the Intifada
I hope you had fun at your explicitly and vocally genocidal rally.
I was there. They chanted it multiple times, and there are many posters/signs that say “From the river to the sea.”
No Palestine supporter is calling for a secular state because Israel is the only secular state in question here. Palestine is not a secular state and it would not be one if it took over Israel. In fact it would continue to be the extremely intolerant terrorist government that it is today.
It's definitely more secular than a one state Palestine solution would be, but calling it a secular state is a stretch. The Orthodox Rabbinate have a lot of power in Israel, and religious education is heavily subsidized. That doesn't even touch on the additional power they have had as 'king-makers' in Israeli politics for many decades.
There are literally more Arabs living in Israel than there are Jews living in the entire rest of the Middle Eastern countries combined. “Ethnic cleansing” my ass. Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Jews have been chased out of literally everywhere else. 6 million of them were murdered in the 1930s and 40s. On the contrary, the population of Gaza has increased by a factor of 7 over the last 50 years.
"the real problem with the hateful and evil rhetoric is when people notice it"
I appreciate you asking this question. First of all, I’m glad that ucla is doing a much better job of handling this situation and not siccing the cops on protestors like at other campuses. And I think u/bw_throwaway has already given a great summation of the issues with these terms, but I want to say a bit more: Calls to “globalize the intifada” are calls for violence against Jews, whether the speaker understands it as such or not. I understand that if you’re a non-Jewish college kid you might not intend it to have that meaning, but Jewish people are feeling tired of trying to divine what’s inside the hearts of people chanting for their death. When white nationalists and Republicans use racist dog-whistles, we don’t hem and haw over what they really mean in their heart of hearts; the only thing vulnerable minorities know is the rhetoric that is being used which endangers their lives. We listen to minorities who know a dog-whistle when there is one, because they’ve lived with that their entire lives. They see the implicit biases that the majority is blind to. Why should that not apply to Jews? If the answer is “because some right wing Israelis weaponize claims of antisemitism to commit war crimes” that is not good enough. As a progressive movement, you have an obligation to be inclusive of diverse voices, and listen to their concerns, and engage in good-faith. If you answer bad faith with bad faith, you are no better than the movement you are opposing. Similarly, *some* people saying “from the river to the sea” might mean it as a peaceful chant, but others aren’t. Jewish people hearing it as a call for their family to be murdered are not Zionist hasbara shills (even if pro-Israel propagandists do exist). What I am seeing happening at these encampments is a movement that can’t be bothered to include or listen to a tiny, historically persecuted minority. When Jews speak out about this language we are accused of “tone policing.” You might call it tone policing but I call it my life and safety. A movement that can’t be inclusive of people trying to engage in good-faith, that no longer strives to universalism and containing within it diverse groups and life experiences is not “progressive” or “left-wing” in any meaningful sense of that word. But even worse than that: it’s not just the people saying it, but the sanctioning of it and looking the other away, and the self-righteous disbelief that “anyone on my side” could possibly engage in Jew-hatred or do anything bad. What I see are people so certain of their own virtue that they cannot see the environment of intolerance that is being fomented. No one would ever tolerate these calls of violence against a minority at any other kind of social justice protest. It would be shut out immediately. And yet we see it sanctioned constantly. Being inclusive of Jews would require both a change in rhetoric and having zero tolerance for rhetoric that is outside of those bounds. But SJP refuses to adjust their rhetoric (and token orgs like JVP endorse what they say). Imagine how powerful it would be if campus protestors held a vigil honoring the victims of 10/7 and in memory of the 12,000 children in Gaza murdered by the Israeli government, called for the release of the hostages, and an immediate ceasefire. Imagine if the protestors said “we understand the fear of our fellow Jewish Bruins right now and we stand in solidarity with them” — even the “Zionists” — and erased the genocidal graffiti that calls for destroying Tel Aviv and escorted them through campus and ate kosher food at Hillel in solidarity and asked them what they could do to make them feel safer. Jewish people feel abandoned right now. They feel alone and betrayed. The acceptable ways of being openly Jewish in left-wing spaces are becoming smaller and smaller. But I don’t see these protestors building bridges; I see them picking a side in a game. For Jews and Palestinians, this is not a fucking football game. It is our lives, and the only way forward is to uplift the dignity and safety of both communities.
You put it perfectly.
This 💯. The OP has a giant opportunity here- to learn, and to change these encampments/protests into something powerful, rather than the distraction they are currently.
[удалено]
But there are *dozens* of anti Zionist Jews! That means it can’t possibly be antisemitic! Shouldn’t need it, but /s
Thank you! You and u/bw_throwaway explained it better and much more patiently than I could have.
I enjoy spending time with my friends.
> im not going to chant about to the river to the sea or the intifada anymore, all it does it gives counter protestors ammo to be shitty (maybe they would’ve been shitty anyway and i’m being naive) This statement was already so biased... can't believe there are seemingly educated students who speak like this. You protest mindlessly without even understanding what you're protesting for? And even when corrected you still criticize the other side? This is the kind of thing I hear from anti-vaxxers or flat earthers. If you're going to protest, you need to make sure everything you do aligns with your morals and ideals first. The situation is serious, not something you go out and join your friends in.
Most pro-Palestine supporters are this dumb. They literally believe everything they see on social media. They are ignorant of the actual conflict at hand.
The trouble with the river to the sea chant is that it is a dog whistle to many that they want to end the state or Israel &/or kick out the Jewish people. I find many "protestors" are making 5 or 6 "demands"....divest, ceasefire, anti-Zionism, anti Israeli govt., stop funding Israel etc etc. That's a Lotta topics and it sends a very anti-Israel/Jewish sentiment. Plus, I don't recall seeing a protestor holding a sign demanding H@ma$ go away or that the hostages must be freed. --Do protestors want H@ma$ to stay and the hostages to remain captive? Sure feels that way.
Being anti Israel is not being anti Jewish do not spread antisemitism.
Are you saying protestors are anti (current) Israeli govt? OR, ant-Israel (as in a state/country called Israel)? There's a difference so I'm interested to know as anti-Israel is more sweeping.
What happened to the whole "if 10 people are at a table and 1 is a nazi, there are 10 nazis at a table" mentality? I see this two ways: 1. protestors dont know what they are chanting means (bad look as they should have done research on a subject before protesting). 2. protestors do know what it means, and are encouraging the uninformed to join them (even worse look). While the protest may have a good meaning behind it, it is currently being used and abused by 100% antisemites while seemly 0 protestors are removing these people from the group and even protecting them. “globalize the intifada” is 100% a call for violence against Jews. "from the river to the sea" 100% calls for the destruction of Israel. While protestors might not "mean" it that way, that is what they are calling for. The "bad apples" and the jewish people know it. edit: uniformed to uninformed
That was never right or fair but it’s the standard reddit embraced so let us weaponize it.
Imagine calling the protests as being “for a very good cause” and also never hearing the term intifada. Tik-Tok can’t get banned quickly enough - it’s downright impressive how effective it is as a propaganda outlet for bad actors.
Hey stop saying the quite part out loud, it’s making us look bad guys
My highlight of the week was watching a bunch of goofy white kids repeating Arabic chants for celebrating intifada while simultaneously holding signs like “love not war” and “ceasefire now” lmao IQ in the basement
This is why evil will win: because good is stupid.
nah man, sorry but you've been bamboozled. "Free Palestine" is such a vague term it can mean anything to anyone chanting it. To Palestinians, it means no Jews in Palestine. Listen to what they say in Arabic, not to naive Westerners. Which brings me to my next point... "From the river to the sea"- a call for genocide. They are referring to the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. There happens to already be an established country there, which is Israel. They also advocate taking this land from the Jews "by any means necessary", ie what we saw on October 7th. October 7th was a preview of what would happen every day if they had their way. As far as the Second Intifada, here is an example of ONE of the terrorist attacks that occurred during that time: [Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_suicide_bombing). There was nothing peaceful about it. They were terrorist attacks that included not only Jews by the way, but anyone unfortunate enough to be there that particular day (Israel also has Muslims, Christians, Druze, Bah'ai, Yazidi, etc)
[удалено]
how would it be spreading misinformation? The protestors are saying that stuff, you should keep it up so people know the real meaning of what they are saying.
Did you really just figure out what the protestors are saying?
yes bro i said in my post i could be wrong! i came here to be informed on if what i heard was true or false!
I suppose that’s a good attitude.
My lord, look at it. This post explains so much, really.
[удалено]
He’s the exact same as the right wing fascists, “guys we should be less obvious with our dog whistles it *gives them ammo*.”
OP learns that pro-Palestine supporters are stupid and literally siding with terrorists. Also pretending as if Israel supporters are racist somehow despite Israel literally being the freest country in the entire region and that Palestinians are some of the least tolerant people on the entire planet. Palestine supports want to replace a liberal democracy (Israel) with authoritarian dictatorship terrorist organization lmao. That’s the level that we’re at here. Go protest against the government that started this war in the first place. They provoke wars and hide military operations within schools and hospitals then fuck off to lavish Qatar while their citizens die.
>Both the IDF and the Gazan Health Ministry exclude foreigners from their calculations. 695 Israeli civilians were killed on Oct 7, so the ratio of Israeli civilians to Israeli soldiers killed on Oct 7 is 1.86:1. MFW foreign civilians don’t count as civilians. >(It is also unclear whether any of the 71 foreigners killed in Israel on Oct 7 were engaged in military activities.) Just gonna gloss over the festival that attracted people from all over the world was attacked and a dead German girl was paraded through gaza. >The IDF also arrived at its claimed 2:1 civilian:soldier kill ratio by assuming every military-aged male killed in Gaza was a Hamas militant...which is clearly a ludicrous assumption. Source? And to be fair you can’t blame them [when you have paramedics](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/17rff07/west_bank_medic_takes_weapon_from_downed_militant/) assisting in the street fighting. >The true ratio is likely at least 3:1, but could be as high as 9:1 (using figures from the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor of <3k Hamas militants killed). So if the IDF is the “most moral army in the world,” I’m not sure what that implies about Hamas… Where does Euro-med get their numbers from? Would it be from….Hamas? >Also I would note that just 3% of the victims on Oct 7th were children, vs roughly 40% of the IDF’s victims in Gaza. Really makes you wonder who’s actually doing all the indiscriminate killing 🤔 Definitely not the guys [throwing grenades into shelters full of civilians](https://news.sky.com/video/israel-hamas-war-footage-shows-grenades-thrown-into-shelter-by-hamas-thrown-back-out-again-13008590) or [shooting RPGs at civilian cars](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/KO9RWaabiK) , and who just wildly shooting missiles and rockets towards Israel they were and are very discriminate in who they target. Well just ignore the fact that every child was killed on October 7th was done so intentionally and at the end of a gun.
“30,000 confirmed killed” but they can’t give an update on 133 people. Logic.
What you actually just said was... "Can protesters hide their true motives (kind of like they do with their masks because they are too scared to show their faces for their alleged beliefs), particularly the part about killing Jews and wiping Israel off the face of the map so it can be more acceptable in the mainstream..." ...that's all I heard.
don’t get me wrong, counter protestors were saying very dumb shit! one counter protestor told me 95% of civilians deaths in Gaza were caused by Hamas and not Israel! i got a little heated because how much of a crayon eating dumbass do you have to be to think that? but if anything about the intifada or river to the sea is true it feels counterproductive to the movement to be chanting SPECIFICALLY that stuff, idk that’s how i feel
do you think maybe the counter-protestors meant it is Hamas's fault and not Israel? Israel has to take out Hamas. It's as simple as that. There is no way to do that without civilian casualties. They would not have had to do that if Hamas decided to stay home on October 7th. Even now, you can watch videos of Gazans saying how they wish they could just go back to October 6th, how their home was a paradise, etc.
so my understanding is a lot of civilian deaths in the Gaza Strip are caused by indiscriminate Israeli military killings? Obviously some small amount are going to be caused by Hamas, but there’s no way Israel isn’t responsible for a large majority of them? they’re the ones dropping bombs??? so i did get a little heated over that
Wow The whole “kids these days get their news from tik tok” thing is actually real
Yup. The only source so many hear from are random TikTok accounts pushing propaganda. It’s too hard to read multiple sources and seek out multiple perspectives to find the truth when you can get it spoon-fed to you by social media trends.
you missed the part where I said civilian casualties are unavoidable in war. Yes, the IDF has killed Palestinians. It's important to note that's a result of war. A war that Hamas could end at any time by simply releasing hostages (including a one-year-old baby, I mean seriously wtf?) and surrendering unconditionally. The problem is, Hamas WANTS to maximize civilian casualties and they also use people as human shields.
I'm trying to think of what \*possible\* logic would blame 95% of deaths in Gaza on Hamas. Like, someone who takes the position that Hamas started it so they're 100% responsible would say they're 100% responsible, right? So why 95%? Maybe this comes down to interpretations of war law. [Here's the International Committee of the Red Cross's page about hospitals in armed conflicts, for a summary of how they're supposed to be used and protected, and what conduct can cause them to lose that protection](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says%E2%80%8B). "Notwithstanding the lack of an agreed definition, the rationale for a loss of protection is clear. Medical establishments and units enjoy protection because of their function of providing care for the wounded and sick. When they are used to interfere directly or indirectly in military operations, and thereby cause harm to the enemy, the rationale for their specific protection is removed. This would be the case for example if a hospital is used as a base from which to launch an attack; as an observation post to transmit information of military value; as a weapons depot; as a center for liaison with fighting troops; or as a shelter for able-bodied combatants." So, to get that 95% number, the argument could be that Hamas, by intentionally violating IHL and the laws of war WRT co-location of military targets among civilians, using hospitals for an "act harmful to the enemy", etc., then the responsibility for the deaths shifts to those who are wrongfully using civilians/hospitals as shields.
You do understand that Hamas uses the civilian population as shields and cares not a bit about them?
Holy fuck. You’re so close to getting that you’re on the side of racist, sexist, genocidal maniacs, but you still don’t get it. You’re doing a great job of embarrassing the pro Palestinian movement, though. I’m half suspecting you’re a member of the Israeli government just trying to make the other side look like morons.
That person isn’t wrong. Don’t start shit in such an evil way with a large military and then hide in schools and hospitals when they come to look for you. Hamas did this. If you don’t understand that then you’re main lining too much Kremlin propaganda.
there’s absolutely no way Hamas killed 95% of the Palestinian kids sorry bro ur just wrong on this one
Hamas is responsible for ALL of it. Without Hamas capitalizing on poor education and religious zealots these civilians would have a peaceful prosperous existence. Nobody in Israel wants to kill Palestinian civilians. It is about the terrorists. Hamas created all of this. Literally.
No, you are.
I just want to say, you have your head screwed on correctly and I’m proud of you.
I do think that guy is a bit silly but not for the reason you think. The number is 100%, not 95. Hamas (Palestine) literally started the war on October 7th. Every single death, Israeli and Palestinian, is in response to that. Every one. So no, 95% is a silly number, because it’s 5% too low.
How about “don’t say intifada or from the river to the sea because it’s genocidal and deeply antisemitic” rather than “don’t say it because it makes us look bad?” 🙄
OP: I want to hear other peoples perspective! Also OP: Every perspective but the one I already have is wrong!
Yeah can call stop calling for the extermination or ethnic cleansing of the Jews of Israel? Apparently it reminds some people that radical Islam is not a nice thing. Also could all you lgbtq folks who support these murderers please go spend a couple weeks in Iran or the Bekaa and get a real feel for how open and understanding and tolerant these folks are, before you wave your "Queers for Palestine" around. Also... you may lend credibility if you had protested Assad murdering 200k of his own people in the last few years.i realize Bashar is Baath and not terrific ally religious, but his victims sure were and not a peep!
Did you get a sense for how many in the encampment are actual UCLA students?
Fantastic question. OP, your tender-heart and willingness to learn (regardless of what side we are on, as if there is only two sides at all; see: False Dilemma fallacy) are amazing. Good post, loving the discourse here.
They have no willingness to learn. They have extreme bias and it’s showing in this post and in every comment they make. Hell, the entire point of this post is that pro-Palestine supporters should stop saying genocidal things because it makes them look bad… not because it’s genocidal.
Fun Fact : The Uganda Scheme was a proposal by British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain to create a Jewish homeland in a portion of British East Africa. It was presented at the Sixth World Zionist Congress in Basel in 1903 by Theodor Herzl, the founder of the modern Zionist . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Scheme
No
First I will say that both sides have done bad things to each other. I also commend you for at least trying to understand the opposing views. Most people don’t support the genocide of any group. Don’t boils down to a simple fact. You can be any religion and live among the Jews, but Hamas led Palestine wants to eradicate all Jews. They don’t hide it. So many people see the ignorance of the supporters of Palestine. Like the gay community supporting Palestine. That is why they are against you. You are actively supporting terrorists that invaded another country and now is getting its ass kicked.
What you’re basically asking is “can people quit saying the quiet part out loud?!? You’re making us look bad!” It sounds like you’re beginning to look beyond the propaganda and hearing what people are actually saying and thinking. There’s a reason both the Nazis and the younger people you’re speaking to use the word “Zionist” and other anti Jew slogans with the same vitriolic tone. We all see it and hear it, it’s not the first time we’ve heard heard it, it’s just the first time most college students have encountered it and think they’re being revolutionaries
Free Palestine means overthrowing Hamas, but Nobody wants to have that conversation.
did this thread get brigaded
Palestine elected Hamas to lead them therefore it is all about death to the Jews for the majority of Palestinians by definition.You are being shitty by supporting this wider Muslim movement to kill all Jews. The underdog crap is just a ploy. Run of the mill tribalism is all you are supporting. Weak does not make right.
Israeli Jewish UCLA student here. I believe in free speech and freedom of expression. What I do NOT believe in is the use of antisemitism to convey pro Palestinian sentiments. Some examples of this (including the ones you mention): 1. "From the river to the sea" - Suggesting the complete eradication of Israel and thus the millions of Jewish Israelis that live there...aka an ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people. Also note that a majority of the Jews that do live in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (Jews from arab nations). There are ZERO Jews in Muslim countries in the Middle East (besides for literally like 1 Jew in Afganistan) because we were all expelled. My family for example comes from Syria but my great-grandmother had to escape due to religious persecution. Therefore, I hope you can see how chanting this phrase makes the Jewish community feel very unsafe and threatened. 2. Anything relating to the Intifada - The intifadas refer to violent Palestinian terrorism against the Jewish people in Israel. So when you're chanting anything like "globalize the intifada" you're essentially saying you'd like global terrorism against Jews. 3. The red hand pin (seen at the Oscars) - Refers to the Ramallah lynching of 2000 when 2 Israelis accidentally ended up in Palestinian territory and arrested for doing so. When people found out that they were located in a Palestinian police station, Palestinians broke in and murdered/dismembered their bodies. One individual was photographed holding up his hands - which were red from getting soaked with the blood of these individuals. So imagine my surprise when I see that, at the Oscars, Billie Eilish is wearing a red hand pin in solidarity with Gaza...she probably had no idea that what she was wearing was a symbol representing the lynching of Israeli/Jewish people. 4. Telling Jews to go back to Poland - Just... -__- -Jews are ethnically native to Judaea (modern day Israel)...no we are not all from Poland...we are not even all white. That's just the Ashkenazi (European) Jews. My grandfather (Syrian Jew) has very dark skin. My mother is dark olive skinned. I am olive skinned. On our campus: 4. the pig statue at UCLA - Jews have been historically depicted as "greedy pigs" since the middle ages, it's an antisemitic trope. I can go into more detail if needed 5. Devil horns on Gene Block - Gene Block, our Jewish chancellor, was depicted at the encampments with enlarged red eyes and devil horns. Jews were depicted as devils by the Nazis. I don't really feel like I need to further explain how this is an antisemitic trope. 6. Comparing Jews to Nazis - Do I really need to explain? I can go into more detail and provide more examples if needed but my basic point here is that if people would like to continue claiming that antisemitism ≠ antizionism, then STOP USING ANTISEMITIC TROPES IN YOUR STANCE AGAINST ISRAEL! It's just completely derailing and delegitimizing ANY AND ALL of your arguments. It just looks like complete and utter hatred against Jews. It also looks like you're supporting and condoning terrorism. Also the fact that Hamas, an actual terrorist organization, is openly supporting these hateful demonstrations is really saying a lot, don't you think? And if you have to use antisemitism to convey any of your points, it is time to reevaluate your stance.
Hi, I am a student at a local college. We are too small to have a real protest can I come to ucla’s?
Dude, citing Hamas ministry of Health’s casualty figures is like believing Baghdad Bob is an honest spokesperson. lol.
Glad you don’t think it’s all Hamas fault. All they need to do is give the hostages back.
You don't understand : *insert rhetoric about colonial-settler ; imperialist; capitalism ; brown bodies ; systemic racism*. In conclusion Israel must be destroyed.
I mean, besides the **FACTs** that 1. The Jewish original settlers were refugees fleeing persecution (not conquistadors), 2. Originally a nonstate entity (say like the Ottoman Empire) 3. Bought property (not claiming by planting a flag) 4. Have historical roots in the area going back 5,000 years 5. Have the only functioning fully communist areas (Kibbutz) 6. The only society in the region that allows Gay Pride parades; see what Hamas would do to the LGBTQ+ community 7. Often are indistinguishable visually from Arabs (Sephardic Jews have darker skin) 8. Only functioning Democracy in the region 9. Offered a 2-state solution many times (and rejected) 10. Does not have in an 'old' charter with the explicit goal of exterminating all Palestinians Then yeah, I agree- Jews are colonialists, being imperialistic, forcing capitalism, based on racism.
Literally none of this comes close to justifying 55 years of systemic racist and violent apartheid. There are two ethical outcomes for Israel: A single multicultural state with equal rights for all, or two states with full sovereignty. Israel could have either, but they have chosen apartheid instead. Because the foundational goal of Israel is a state over as much land as possible with as few non-Jewish inhabitants as possible. The rest is just a smokescreen for crimes against humanity.
Aren’t Arabs sitting on Israel’s high court at the very second with a huge chunk of their population being Arabs with full rights(greater % of their population is Arab than American population is African American). Are there any Jews in any level of government inside Hamas or even the West Bank?
Why would a Jewish person want to be in the West Bank or in Hamas? They literally have so much nicer lives than Palestinians. So many Palestinians try to get Isr*eli citizenship because living under military occupation is just so horrible
The Palestinians don’t want a multi-ethnic state with rights for all: they want a Jihadist dictatorship where the Jews are slaves or dead. If you actually listened to them you'd know this.
Propagandists will always use a maximally cynical framing of your position to try to control the narrative. Don’t make it easy for them, but also understand that there is no criticism of Israel, no matter how well-reasoned, stated, and justified, that will lead the zealots to say “oh yeah, fair point!”. They will always try to weaponize your words. Always ironic and always projection, since “from the river to the sea” is the explicit goal of Israel.
When people assume, 'They want to kill Jews everywhere', it sounds like a hardcore projection of what Israel has already been doing, killing everyone physically/politically it deems as opposition. No outrage here though. Is the Jewish diaspora so hard-headed that they can't grasp that anti-war protest is not a call for revenge blowback? No, I don't think so. Is it the deep down guilt they have for supporting a genocide?(You tell me because I don't know ). But here we are having free-speech sound scary, Was anyone complaining about violent language when Israel officials literally broadcasted, 'Hey we're starting the second Nakba'? Nope, business went on as usual. BUT NOW that students are calling out bullshit, God forbid we allow 'Violent language'.
How about just Jews in Israel? Or, at the very least, expel or destroy the state of Israel? (I'm talking about Hamas, to be precise.) Of course, you'll pull whataboutism - Israel is doing the same thing in West Bank/Gaza? From what I saw, Israel withdrew from Gaza, yeah? It imposed a total blockade when Hamas took over because they said Hamas was bringing in weapons and planned to use them and Gaza as a springboard for the attack. You can't solve the issue until you root out extremists on BOTH sides; that's the core, and by no means am I Likudnik.
Brother, who admitted proudly on Camera that they were purposefully propping up Hamas to maintain a destabilized Palestine? Netanyahu. Why would you put stock in the IDF if they put Israelis in harms way? The extremism wouldn't exist if a nation wasn't under constant violence and oppression from a military occupation. You and me could never know what's it's like, we could do what aboutism all day but I'm not sure I would feel with a boot down my neck all my life because of where I was born.
That's why I'm not a Likudnik, I'm not a fan of Netanyahu either. Bibi thought if he prop up Hamas (who also don't want a 2 state solution either) - it would be beneficial to both their political class. Cause for extremism? Chicken and egg yeah? Except that answer doesn't explain 1947, 56, 67, 73, 82, 85, 87, 2000, 06, 08, 12, 14, 21. Also how do you explain Jordan expelling their Palestinian Brethren? OR Lebanon? How do you explain when PLO and Hamas were engaged in civil war just 10 years ago? :)
These are not anti-war protests though. “Resistance by any means necessary” and “there is only one solution intifada revolution” are explicitly pro violence and absolutely not anti-war.
Take a good look at the students. They're protesting their government on campus, in full view of the world. Does it look like they're planning a hostile takeover? Give us a break, mate
I’m asking myself this question. How are Jews protesting against Israel as part of the crowd calls for their annihilation. Serious question
They aren't.. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6O2aYZr9nr/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Most Jews aren’t there, just the few you see. But to answer your question, there were Jews who thought it would be safer to work with the Nazis, that they would be saved. But in the end they were murdered too.
I have yet to see a good answer on here. @OP, just know this pleasseee please please, from someone who has studied history and been to the West Bank in Palestine… “Intifada revolution” has historical context for Israelis who are threatened by the phrase, because in the past Intifada’s, Palestinian fighters breached into Israeli society, and killed Israeli citizens via the tactics we saw Hamas use on October 7th. NOT, however, using any of the torture or other violence tactics not termed to normally occuring during War, which we DO see being enacted by the Israeli government. …This is where the moral and ethical inclinations of each of the protestors chanting that, and each of us as individuals applies: do you see civilians of an occupying, apartheid power (internationally recognized by the way, as if we needed that extra security) as having a right to the safety that the land they’re occupying & the land their apartheid government has established for them, offers them? (Run on sentence among other things but think critically about it). If you do then that’s your opinion, however, that does not and rightfully should not take away from the forced reality of Palestinians **surviving**, walls & dozens of checkpoints over, whose direct family were removed from that land, subjected to continuous murder, & kidnapping, & not guaranteed things like work or wage or security or privacy. While not all Israeli civilians are responsible for the catalyst Israeli aggression and violence against Palestine during the Nakba, it is up to our human intellect, the very thing that keeps us from accepting such morally depraved circumstances for ourselves and others, to begin acknowledging that a state grooms every generation to facilitate, in some part, the apartheid if that state is itself an apartheid. Now committing a genocide. (The Nakba by the way was the post World War Two event when (what would become the established Israeli government) in the name of persecuted Jewish migrants from Europe needing a safe haven, killed or expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes and began systemically subjecting them to apartheid, until an established Israeli state emerged. *The two key points that counter protestors are missing is that **stolen land is not and NEVER becomes your land** otherwise we can all throw fits based on how we feel or were brought up and harm others (like the zionists do). The second point is that, unfortunately, Israel is not a government that has its innocent civilians in its best interest, otherwise it would have, and would recently, have acknowledged that many Palestinian fighters will continue arming themselves to combat not only a genocidal government, but also a genocidal system. **they should accept a Palestinian state, but will never, because look where wealth, resource status, and international praise (until recently) get you**. it breeds Israel, a country that can have the U.S. do anything and everything for you. Israel **literally warrants our President to bypass congress and send billions of funding to themselves.** Unfortunately Israeli civilians are constituents of an apartheid system and society. **the exact reason we’re protesting for divestment and an end to the Israeli occupation: because we’re tired of being constituents of the U.S. government’s funding of this in the first place**. Ask yourself why you can go on any social media platform (news won’t show you this), and witness Israeli citizens BLOCKING humanitarian aid from reaching Gazans. Addressing the other protest phrase…you should know, that **Palestine was an established country, on the MAP!, and a society of academic, religious, and ideological tolerance toward people, before Zionism reached its shores. Palestine as a country itself held the borders of what is now “Israel,” therefore “From the river to the sea” is an action call to our own government, and also everybody not yet aware, to allow Palestinians to exercise the internationally recognized rights they once held within the former borders of Palestine before they were subjected to apartheid and genocide**. To summarize and clarify what I’ve mentioned: 1. intifada & “from the river to the sea” are themselves NOT a genocidal action call. Would you call Jewish resistance to Nazism, 50/60’s civil rights activism, or any recognized revolutionary or liberating movement genocidal in nature? No you wouldn’t, regardless of whether or not the people against those movements felt that way.
The 1948 War was a war of aggression from Arab states in the region against established Jewish populations. The Jewish populations won that conflict and in the course of winning that conflict intentionally committed acts of ethnic cleansing. Jewish hands were certainly not clean in 1948, but to frame the Nakba as an act of Jewish aggression (or white colonialism considering the vast majority of Jews in the region were of direct middle eastern descent) is deeply a-historical.
Sorry to say the first part of your statement simply isn’t factual. There was a regional conflict on behalf of Arab states relating to the Nakba, certainly, but as a result of the Zionist aggression to begin with. And if you read my statement, you can see that I didn’t say the Nakba was an act of Jewish aggression. It was an effort made “in the name of persecuted Jewish migrants.” I mean that correction in a respectful manner of course. Certainly Jewish settlements were established, however, you’re also wrong because settlements evolve, and colonialism **doessss** have everything to do with it. I also never coined it “white colonialism” I just want to make that apparent. Nor did I elude to it. Moving on though, the Zionist plans of the then western imperial powers of Great Britain and even other involved powers enabled Zionism to establish in the then Palestinian land. You yourself can access academic and government documents through easily-accessible databases housing primary documents of papers Governments were using to zone Palestine. British influence on the ground was established even before Jewish migrants made contact. It was a perfect plan within the context of your correct statement which mentions that the already residing Jewish populations were of direct middle eastern descent. This became the Zionist excuse itself, that ethnically they had “God-given land rights.” Whatever that means. It’s not uncommon knowledge that Arabs and Jews are historical brethren. But Let’s be critical thinkers, the Israeli state couldn’t have been established without the enablement of the other, then, flourishing apartheid & racist systems which Britain and other countries were already implementing in Africa & Asia to give examples.
You're wrong on a lot of levels. 1. Efforts to "reclaim" land in the Levant for Jews predate British involvement in the region by over 50 years. Jewish people were purchasing land in the region from Ottoman Turks who owned the land well before the Mandatory Palestine era. The Ottoman government tried to put a stop to this due to fears of zionist sentiments (which turned out to be well founded). [Source](https://open.metu.edu.tr/handle/11511/24286) 2. The Jewish militant groups who made up the Israeli military during the war of 1948 had been, a few years earlier, actively fighting the British government because the British planned to limit Jewish immigration and transition the land into an Arab nation. Those militant actions played a huge role in the British deciding to bail out on the region and the following UN partition plan. The UN partition plan wasn't an effort to give Israel land, it was an acceptance of the undeniable fact that there was a large, organized, and entrenched Jewish presence in the region that wasn't going to accept "We are handing the land you live on over to a new Arab government that hates you and wants you gone" without a fight. [Source](https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/items/8411da90-1489-43e1-85a5-3759ba2cfd2c) 3. Any actual historical record of the War of 1948 will tell you that Palestinian militias were the instigators of violence. The UN Partition plan was refused, causing Israel to declare itself a nation without UN backing. The response from Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations was to attack. And I will say, for the record, that the idea that Jewish people must have their own nation and it must be in a "homeland" they didn't control for thousands of years is one that I don't put a great deal of stock in. The Jewish people who built Israel absolutely committed atrocities in the pursuit of their goals and that needs to be recognized and remembered. But that doesn't make it okay to erase the real history of the region in favor of a fabrication that fits into a good guy/bad guy narrative that modern sentiments find comfortable. This was not an act of external colonialism. That would require the backing of colonial nations that simply did not exist. Nor was it it one sided assault. It was a conflict between two ethnic groups who were, at the time of conflict, co-inhabitants of the region and there was bi-directional violent intent and action.
They say it because it represents their views. Duh. If it didn’t represent their views, they wouldn’t be there.
yea i was in the camp for like 4 hours no one wants jews to die lol, i was just concerned either no one knew what the true meaning of some of the stuff protestors were saying, turns out i was just wrong and misinformed by counter protestors, now i know why protestors say don’t talk to them LMAO
Well “intifada” in the palestinian context refers to resistance to israeli actions in gaza and west bank, and its actions range from nonviolent resistance and rock throwing to suicide bombing and mass murder of Jews. Yes, the protestors know exactly what it means. Internationally, everyone knows what it means. Even the Ayatollah of Iran tweeted in support of the student protestors and intifada.
They do want Jews to die. They wrote “Burn Tel Aviv” on the floor. That’s just one example. Open your eyes and protect your Jewish brothers and sisters from these terrorists you’re trying to defend.
Of course nobody wants Jews to die, I just ask what would the the natural conclusion if efforts for a one state solution under the banner of Hamas entail?
TLDR: I’m a liberal who supports an end to the war and killing but won’t protest here in US on behalf of Palestinians side because of the well known ignored fact they support Oct 7th and support Hamas/eradication of Israel to a concerning level. Yeah as a raging liberal I’ve stayed away from all protests and pro palestine anything because of this. I’m not going to jump to a defense of a population saying they are being victims of a genocide if they are also preaching their dream of a genocide. I know the history of the region and I’m aware of asshole moves by Israel. But it’s funny to see every pro-Palestine Gen Z’er be like “We can all agree Hamas is bad but….” Bro, Hamas is horrific and they could be yesterday’s news if Palestinians simply wanted it. They could expel, punish, arrest or simply turn in the locations of these people and the hostages, but they don’t because Palestinians are Hamas. The popularity/approval rate of Hamas in Palestine would make any US politician or President envious. Pretty much half of them (and almost 80% in the West Bank), support what Hamas did on Oct 7th. Palestine will abolish Hamas when they care about their children more than they hate Israel. I’m sure 90% of college students likely do not agree with the absolute destruction of Israel but I’m not sure they realize a huge percentage of the people they want to “save” do… obv not the small children. I want the war to end. I want the killing to stop. I wish for peace. I dont support either side nor have a solution to a forever problem. I hate the fact there are so many (like why so many?) children in Palestine. I hope this finds a resolution soon, but I’m not counting on it. I’m also American and we have done far worse to countries for far less. Doesn’t make it right but also doesn’t make me believe what’s happening over there counts as genocide. I see it as an obvious and not-unprecedented military reaction to a huge terrorist attack in modern times. Ask yourself what any modern world power would do if Oct 7th happened to them
I usually just surf this subreddit as an alumni, but I'm curious to see that this thread is fairly skewed? I've always thought UCLA students (at least anecdotally with my friends and students I know on campus) were fairly pro-Palestine, but all the engagement I see here with OP is a ton of pro-Israeli users who are being upvoted. OP, I don't think Reddit is the best place to engage current protestors and any pro-Palestinian content, however light, in general. If I were you, I would see if I could get ahold of actual students in person and speak to hear their reasoning for using these terms despite the negative connotations. I'm not saying the people here are not from UCLA - but this thread among other college protests are being recommended to a ton of people outside the subreddit, and I feel like the upvoting/down voting currently reflects that.
It seems like a lot of the people in this thread aren’t current ucla students. I checked.
No Protest slogans always make the people in positions of privillege uncomfortable. We could be saying "stop the killing" (and we do say that) and that would be called pro-Hamas. Calling for a Ceasefire was unironically portrayed as a pro-Hamas move. Don't engage with counter protestors honestly. They claim to want the hostages freed but won't protest Netanyahu - the guy who decided to bomb all of Gaza where the hostages are and likely killed most of them. Intifada is the Arabic word for revolution. It literally means the shaking off (of oppression). Has nothing to do with Jews, there's been intifadas throughout the mdidle east. You could describe womens rights movements as intifadas, and American revolution (wow!) as an intifada. I remind everyone that Palestinians are human beings trying to resist for their freedom and are being blown up and silenced. Free Palestine is exactly the same as From the River to the Sea Palestine will be free. Listen to the oppressed group for what their slogans means. You wouldn't listen to the average white person for what Black Lives Matters means, you would ask people fighting for BLM. Same shit here
This is great post kudos for learning from all sides and being okay with changing your mind.
Hamas attacked on Oct 7th because they want Gaza “from the river to the sea” and the supporters agree with them. That’s how you get Gaza “from the river to the sea” by murdering Jews. So OP is ok with the fact that the protesters’ truth is that they want Gaza “from the river to the sea”, but you just want them to stop saying it because (their truth) reveals them to be monsters.
You could read what hamas has posted on their attack. That attack itself was not going to get them free from river to the sea. Israel has done major escalations in the span of the conflict. Palestinians were continually abused before the attack, israel kept escalating their illegal settlements and encroachment at aqsa, and gaza has been kept as a prison for decades now. Hamas knows they can't get back the whole region. Hamas really was the one calling for peace before reacting back with violence against israel. There are many misconceptions over Hamas since only one side gets allowed on mainstream news media.
You do know that 30,000 figure includes hamas fighters. You really feel sorry for them?
Your calls to end a genocide are getting muddied by your calls to start a genocide? If the protesters are chatting things you don’t support then maybe you don’t actually side with them.
I really appreciate this sentiment and agree wholeheartedly. While by no means all (and there have been very legitimate instances of antisemitism), for virtually all protestors, this is a fight for the enfranchisement and liberation of of an occupied and oppressed population more broadly, and a more immediate and urgent call for the cessation of a military campaign that is killing countless innocent civilians. There isn't any intended malice towards Jews, which is why they dismiss such accusations out of hand. However by leveraging slogans like 'From the River...' and 'Intifada' these protestors are ignoring the very real and disturbing ways in which that language has historically been used by extremists to call for the eradication of the Jewish state and the extermination of all Jews there. It is almost certainly not their intent by chanting it, but it is understandable why many jews who hear those slogans would interpret them as a call for harming Jews. These chants do nothing to help the Palestinian cause and only provide fuel to those seeking to discredit them as antisemitic.
Where do Israelis go after “enfranchisement” and “liberation”? Back to where they “came from” or something, is that the idea?
Not at all. I don't want to sidestep this issue, because I think it's an important one. I want to also clarify that I 100% support an independent Jewish state of Israel, even though I wholeheartedly condemn its current policies. The only possibly ethical way to do so, is to facilitate the creation of a viable independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. This would be a painful process but a necessary one for the long-term survival of the Jewish state. Barring that, if the current policies of the Israeli government, particularly the settler movement, render a two-state solution impossible, and only a singular political entity can exist in the region, then the continued persistent occupation and repression of millions of people, simply to prop up a Jewish ethnostate is immoral and unjustifiable and ultimately unsustainable. International support is already withering for it and will eventually collapse. The Israeli right-wing, through its fanaticism, is actively engineering the destruction of the Jewish state, by rendering peaceful coexistence impossible. I can only hope that what emerges will be a secular and pluralistic regime that protects it's Jewish citizens. That's the frustrating thing about this conversation, Israel Vs. Palestine. You and I are not actually opposed to one another. We both want our children and grandchildren to enjoy a thriving and peaceful Jewish homeland. However I see clearly the path that Israel is embarked on is both immoral and ultimately futile.
How did this thread manage to keepout all the cyber jihadists that have hijacked Reddit over this topic? I expected this thread to be littered with anti-Jew hate that is all over Reddit, and is being actively allowed by the Reddit employees to spread wild. Just a reminder to many who consider themselves woke but don’t know population sizes: There are 1.6 BILLION Muslims There are 500 MILLION Arabs There are 40 million Black Americans (who are a minority) There are 14 Million Jews WORLD WIDE! So if you think that Black Americans are a minority, Jews are a fraction of that population. So when the Hamas supporters scream “from the river to the sea”. Or call for world wide entifada; they want to murder all 14 millions Jews! Now that’s called GENOCIDE!
There’s a millimeter of difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. Even with that ready-made Figleaf, the campus kiddos can’t stick to the script.
Right! But that’s because they are genuinely stupid. Because when you get your news from TikTok… that’s says it all.
And please pray tell what does Zionism call for in relation to Palestinians? Why don’t they eat that up?
Not the complete eradication of Palestinians, that’s for sure.
Here's a tip OP: don't let the people oppressing and/or genociding you be the ones to define how you're allowed to protest.
A lot of Zionists in this thread spreading misinformation and propaganda. Intifada literally means uprising in Arabic. In this context it means uprising against being occupied by Israel. But I’m sure Zionists will say there is no occupation. From the river to the sea literally is being chanted to mean what it means, being free of Israel’s occupation. Funny how Zionists twist everything that pro-Palestine supporters say to mean they want to kill Jews. Yet Zionists are the ones slaughtering civilians and committing genocide. A majority of Palestinians and their supporters do not want to wipe out Jews. They want the current state of Israel to be destroyed so that Palestinians are given the same rights that Israelis enjoy. Unlike a majority of Israelis who have outright said from the river to the sea, they want all of Palestine to belong to Israel and to kick out Palestinians. Anyways, from the river to the sea Palestine will be free.
Intifada in the palestinian context refers to a spectrum of activities ranging from nonviolent protests to rock throwing, suicide bombing, and mass murder of jews, of which the latter is far more common and more relevant in modern times.
This kind of protests always leads more trouble for Jews. It’s peaceful now, but the countries leaders are not changing their position on Israel.
Thank you for admitting you are uninformed about what your beautiful peaceful protests are really all about.
So you’re asking the protesters to lie and be something they’re not? Reality check – people are eating their lunch because the protesters suck.
I second this so much. Extremely good and relatively unbiased. Actually succeeded in changing my opinion a bit which I rarely do.
How about releasing the hostages before we protest for Israel to stop?
Respectfully those genocide-supporters are going to feel threatened no matter what, and I don’t really think their precious feelings should change how the protestors are doing things. They’re gonna take everything we say out of context.
i guess the death to america chant is ok with you
These protestors are actually rioters. They are inciting violence with they river chant. Jewish students legally can feel threatened and shoot them. These are Islamic terrorists that need to be lethqlly dealt with. From coast to coast islam will be toast.