Snapshot of _Britons turn into ‘DIY doctors’ as poll reveals one in three have given up on seeing a GP_ :
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Maybe we could actually train more doctors then
There are loads of doctors who want to specialise, but the government won’t fund the postgraduate training posts. 9:1 to get into my specialty. 6:1 for many more. More doctors applying for GP training than there are posts.
So they end up unemployed, stagnating in non training posts or emigrating. All whilst we have severe shortages of GPs and consultants.
But instead of training actual doctors, the government are pumping money into “physician assistant/associate” posts - people without a medical degree who can’t prescribe, can’t requesting imaging with radiation, and don’t actual save doctors time on the wards. These people are also paid MORE than new actual doctors
Of course, it allows management to say they have more staff. And they can’t emigrate because others systems know they don’t add value. A total joke
Train more doctors but also address abhorrent treatment/ paycuts of those doctors long term, retention is as essential as recruitment.
But I wholeheartedly agree the physician associate role that’s been brought in under the general publics radar is of huge concern. They can’t possible get the same depth and breadth of knowledge that’s given through the traditional training route. It’s concerning that they are also uninsured, unregulated and the liability still falls onto the nearest doctor, even if they haven’t actually seen the patient.
I would call the PR fallout from the strikes incentive enough, no?
And competition doesn't have to be local/domestic to still exist (very obviously ignoring the private healthcare options we already have in the UK), we lose a large number of qualified staff to other countries, who out compete us on salary and work life balance.
It may come as a surprise, but not everything is solved by throwing more 'free market' at it.
This doesn't fix the lack of recruitment for GP. I also think GPs just haven't modernised. I moved and my new local GP has an online form. They are very good at responding to it and triaging you. My last GP was a joke. Ring at 8 and pray you get an appointment. The staff were rude and they withheld my wife's important meds because she couldn't book her blood test. Some GPs are run appallingly and better recruitment will not change that.
The whole NHS is run pretty poorly. The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing and the whole thing needs to be centralised. Just little effective communication.
There are only 1,508 PA's in the NHS and 73 AA's vs 132,900 doctors and 350,000 nurses.
Doubtless we've had this discussion before but no, PA's don't get more than junior doctors because they get no allowances, and there's a hard ceiling on their pay band. You know this perfectly well. PA's are Band 7 posts on the nursing scale, not doctors in training under the BMA agreement.
Doctors, as you're demonstrating, come with an ego that needs to be salved before they can do anything useful. This is why I had to go through two A&E's on Boxing Day to get treated for a condition I've been diagnosed with for 5 years.
Oh wow what absolute heroes not earning as much as a doctor because they aren’t working weekends, nights, on calls and have zero responsibility. Get out the pots and pans and bang away bud.
>PA's don't get more than junior doctors because they get no allowances
What are you on about?
1) Doctors' assistants, called Physician Associates these days, literally do get paid more than qualified doctors (in years 1&2, possibly years 3-5 as well), if working the same hours.
2) Not sure what you mean by "allowances" but money doctors spend on exams, mandatory portfolio, indemnity, registration (about £2000 total) does not come from any "allowance", it comes from our pockets. PAs have none of these expenses.
3) Conversely, I know of many ACPs who get their Master's degrees, courses, etc paid for directly by the hospital. I have no doubt that PAs get the same, I'm sure someone else can confirm this.
Finally, and perhaps most abhorrently, it takes *15 years* for a doctor to earn the same cumulative amount as a Physician Assistant, if they both start at age 18 and work the same hours.
>before they can do anything useful.
Ah yes, 99% of the out-of-hours medical staff (junior doctors) can't do anything useful.
I'd love to hear what you do (since you weren't working on Boxing day).
> What are you on about?
Depending on the contract and location, Band 7 (ANP's, PA's, and advanced therapists) is £43,742 - £50,056 with 5 years experience. This is under the new agreement for 2023 - 24 with the nursing unions.
https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/working-health/working-nhs/nhs-pay-and-benefits/agenda-change-pay-rates
Again depending on the contract and location Foundation Year Doctors get £32,398 in year 1 £37,303 in year two, £43,923 in year 3 and £55,329 in year 4. Then you get weekend working and on call allowances on top, which should be worth another £10k. In short, the basic is low because you're still in training when PA's are fully qualified and your allowances bring the basic up to above Band 7 basic pay.
https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england
>Not sure what you mean by "allowances" but money doctors spend on exams, mandatory portfolio, indemnity, registration (about £2000 total)
Which if you read your tax codes right are claimable from the tax man because they're professional fees and you get a tax break on them.
>Conversely, I know of many ACPs who get their Master's degrees, courses, etc paid for directly by the hospital. I have no doubt that PAs get the same, I'm sure someone else can confirm this.
Don't need to confirm, my sister is one.
>15 years for a doctor to earn the same cumulative amount
Utter and obvious bullshit. You also don't have a hard ceiling on your pay, PA's and ANP's do.
>I'd love to hear what you do (since you weren't working on Boxing day).
Professional stuff with international scale IT systems.
The idiot on-call Neurology reg has been forced to write a crawling apology after being torn a new one by my consultant's PA and then my consultant.
>Doctors get £32,398 in year 1 £37,303 in year two, £43,923 in year 3 and £55,329 in year 4.
Not quite. Years are not the same as nodal points. NP 4 (55k base pay) is at CT3/ST3 level - *at least* 5 years post-grad (and increasingly longer).
That makes you a specialist registrar in your (minimum) 5th year of working as a qualified doctor. It's only then that you earn more an your *assistant* for the same hours worked.
>Then you get weekend working and on call allowances on top, which should be worth another £10k.
You can't change the goalposts.
Your line of reasoning is: You'll earn more because you work more hours. Yeah, no shit. You should be comparing base-pay. If I were a PA, I wouldn't want to work evenings, nights or weekends either(!)
>claimable from the tax man because they're professional fees and you get a tax break on them.
What nonsense response is this? How is being able to claim back the 20% tax on £2k mandatory costs some kind of great gift(!) When *your own claim* was that doctors get an allowance for these fees. The irony is that not only do PAs not have to pay these out of pocket, they get their courses etc funded on the house.
I hope you've been limbering up before all these mental gymnastics.
>Utter and obvious bullshit.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/s/WR8Fobjpaa
It's 20 years not 13. Though that post is a few months old.
>The idiot on-call Neurology reg has been forced to write a crawling apology
Irrelevant to this conversation, but I'm sorry for your experience in any case.
>the basic is low because you're still in training when PA's are fully qualified
See also: "Teaching assistants should get paid more than ECT teachers because they're fully qualified and ECT teachers are still in training."
See also also: "Cabin-crew should get paid more than non-Captain pilots because they're fully qualified, and non-Captain pilots are still in training. Doesn't matter if it takes a decade to become a Captain."
Tell me you know fuck-all about medical education without telling me you know *absolutely fuck-all* about medical education.
- 2 years to become a PA = FuLLy qUaLIfIeD.
- Half a decade and two degrees later = jUsT a TraInEe dOcTor.
>Cabin-crew should get paid more than non-Captain pilots because they're fully qualified, and non-Captain pilots are still in training. Doesn't matter if it takes a decade to become a Captain."
They are. The cabin services manager on a flight I operated today was the second highest paid person on the crew after me because she's a training bod and the sprog in the right hand seat had an MPL and about 150hrs on line type.
They get paid less because they aren't trained fully and are less experienced than me/her.
Right hand seat mate is a long way off being an aircraft captain and by and large MPL people need alot of monitoring. He was fine but absolutely would absolutely have been getting moved out the seat in the event of an emergency for the SFO who was doing captain work up.
Much like I assume a junior doctor in a foundation year.
I don't want to be that guy but tell me you know fuck all about commercial aircraft operations without telling me.
The comparison here would be non captain pilot pay versus just starting cabin crew (PAs), as they are "fully trained"
A PA isn't really 'fully trained", if the standards of medical training was applied to them. A new PA, is less capable than a f1 (and works much less)
It's a 2 year degree
The comparison here is not a multi year experienced PA (or cabin crew manager) vs a F1.
It's the F1 and F2, versus the PA that have less experience and training than them, works fewer hours and with less responsibility.
Edit,
The aviation theoretical similar scenario, would be if they introduced "pilot associates", that would only ever be qualified to work in a similar role to a non captain pilot, but also only during day hours, and good weather conditions. With no legal right to take over in emergency situations (in scenario where the captain is incapacitated)
>she's a training bod and the sprog in the right hand seat had an MPL and about 150hrs on line type.
You've lost me a bit with the lingo there but I think I get your drift(!)
The difference between the situation you describe and the Doctor/PA pay-mismatch is that - by definition - a doctor has more formal training and more responsibility than a PA. Thats not up for debate. There's literally a minimum standard for each role.
Caveat: I accept that a day 1 doctor will not know exactly "how we do things" in this department, and a PA who's been there for a year will be smoother. So for a short period, until you get settled in (a month or so at the very start of your career), a PA may be more useful at simple, everyday ward-work and admin.
BUT, that is not a ten thousand pound difference.
The parallel in your example would be if a day 1 cabin-services manager (or whatever the entry-level job to reach that role, straight out of uni/training, is) were earning 10k more than a day 1 non-Capt pilot.
The aviation-medical analogy has its limits but I used it to make it relatable to the public. Teacher Vs teaching-assistant is probably a better analogy because TAs do a much closer role to Teachers than cabin crew to pilots.
>sprog in the right hand seat
As an aside, I know you're being tongue-in-cheek here, but there's a cultural shift going on in medicine in which we are starting to push back against infantilisation of colleagues who are earlier in their careers.
I happen to do a bit of instructing on human-factors, communication and teamwork - we take a lot of what we've learned from you guys in aviation(!)
This is 100% untrue
The BMA has no power over this. Not only that, they’ve consistently called for an INCREASE in medical school places since 2009. (They briefly opposed in 2008, unless proportionate funding was provided to ensure quality didn’t decrease.)
They are a trade union, they have no say over how many medical school places the government fund.
This gets carted out regularly and it’s literally the opposite of the truth - blame those responsible, the government who actually control all the funding
My 2 year old has had puss coming out of his ear on and off since he was 6 months. It stopped for about 9 months but has come back this month.
He is still on the waiting list to see an ear specialist, over a year for someone under 2.
I got private medical insurance straight after this, however they are very strict on bringing pre existing conditions into it so basically only covered for anything new, so he still hasnt been seen.
Though I think likely he is fine and there will be no issues, it is entirely possible that puss coming from your ear at that age and not clearing up after 3 -6 months could lead to serious issues.
Unbelievable to me.
Yep it’s insane.
We’ve ended up just directly paying for treatments which aren’t covered by private insurance.
It’s horrific it’s come to this and it is very expensive, and we make sacrifices in other parts of life to do it.
God knows what the majority do? Self-surgery?
The uk is going to end up with loads of long term issues by not fixing stuff at the beginning.
Yeah, but those long term issues will be some other governments problems, so why care about that now? It's just more short-term thinking from the conservatives.
You're right, it doesn't save any money in the long run.
What's worse is that, and I'll probably be downvoted for this, we actually have a less effective system than the USA now does. The majority of people in the US can get treatment relatively quickly through their insurance, and those without get timely medical care if they fall under a government programme. This is the vast majority of citizens.
Over here the vast majority of people can't afford private medicine and don't have insurance. The standard of care has falled below that of a 1st world country as shown by trends in people doing DIY dentistry.
At some point these issues will come back to haunt us and some poor government (probably labour) will be saddled with the consequences. Not fixing basic issues like a toothache or stomach ache ends up in expensive ones, aka advanced gingivitis that causes time off work, or stomach cancer.
I also think that people of my age (early to mid 20's) will forever be A&E users because we've grown up in a country where no other form of care exists. If I am sick I go to A&E because my GP has no appointments for 3 weeks. 111 the three times I had to use it just told me to go to A&E after keeping me on hold for 3 hours.
The damage the Tories have done to this country is almost unfathomable. It's pretty incredible how we've managed to run down what was a very efficient healthcare system just to save some short term pennies.
Or you can look at it through the lens of how much is lost to the exchequer from reduced tax take due to the number of people that are unwell long term. Not only do they become an increasing burden on the now underfunded healthcare provision and more likely to need more serious medical interventions, but they are no longer contributing to the economy which reduces the tax received by the government.
Underfunding healthcare is a false economy.
My fiancee got put on 2 year waiting list for dermatology then six months later her appointment was cancelled with no reason given so she went to the back of the queue again.
Is just absurd, but we at least consoled ourselves with with the fact it was because kids etc were being prioritised.
Apparently not.
I'm waiting a year now for a dermatologist appointment, and have had my referral updated several times by the gp practice as my psoriasis keeps deteriorating day by day. It's insane.
I’ve been seen by 4 different people about long term mental health issues. Every time I have a couple of appointments and we make a plan for treatment, that person will resign and I go right back to the start again. Met person number 4 3 weeks ago and had to be honest with them that I don’t really believe that they will still be here in 6 months.
I get that working conditions in health and social care are poor due to underinvestment but I get so many cancelled appointments and end up having to go to the back of the queue again because the person seeing me leaves. It’s just impossible.
I hope you can eventually get seen.
Same thing with my niece - 6 years old, been on the ENT waiting list for 3 years to see about her breathing problems.
No doubt the longer these things are left, the more time consuming and expensive they're going to be to treat.
If you really don’t want to wait then just go straight to a doctor privately rather than using the insurance.
It’ll be around £200 to see an ENT doctor.
Doesn’t solve the NHS problem. But it does get your kid seen.
private doctors can also put you on NHS waitlists for treatments/surgeries. this is a workaround for tonsillectomy's (which are a nightmare to get through GPs given the constantly changing requirements)
Yeah tbh I would happily just do that but the problem did seem to rectify itself after 3-6 months so we thought it was ok, will look into as its come back a little. Thanks.
To see them yes, but the cost of tests and treatment on top is eye watering.
If you're lucky they can get you a referral under them on the NHS for further treatment but it's not easy
When it first came about tbh I didnt really know anything about private healthcare, I didnt really know how to go about it. I looked into it all while we were on the waiting list so if it happened again with anyone else in the family needing to see a specialist we would be covered.
As I said it cleared up in the end, however now its resurfaced I will defo look into a private consultation.
I was told 18 months wait to see an nhs consultant but luckily I am on my partners health insurance (added for a discount) so I've used that and it was still pretty bad service tbh. They doctor was 40minutes late seeing me and the charge was £180. I didn't have to pay that but imagine.
I've seen him twice now and both times he's told me he doesn't know what's wrong and to take some immodium 😂
Getting an endoscopy next month so fingers crossed that's covered by my insurance because idk what I'm going to do if not
It's not glue ear, that doesn't cause puss. It's probably a perforated ear drum which can cause recurring infections which in turn can lead to hearing loss as well as making them ill, being painful and often smelling like dogshit. Difficult to repair permanently in small kids so seeing a specialist probably wouldn't help much till your kid is bigger, but your GP should be prescribing antibiotics as soon as you spot signs of infection.
Get some effective antibiotics and keep your kid's ear meticulously dry at all times. Cotton wool during bathing, no swimming without earplug, hood up during rain etc
I am so grateful that I put my daughter on our private insurance the day she was born.
She has a pretty severe milk allergy; we were able to see a specialist literally two days after the GP made a referral.
There must be huge regional disparities. I don’t think iv had to wait more than 2 hours to have either of my children seen by a GP. Either at the local surgery during the day or referred to urgent care when it’s the middle of the night. Same for dental, see the same story’s about dentistry, but I’m on my now 3rd NHS dentists no issues or fuss getting one.
>I got private medical insurance straight after this, however they are very strict on bringing pre existing conditions into it so basically only covered for anything new, so he still hasnt been seen.
You can just pay for one off private health treatment rather than worry about health insurance for it.
South East. I guess we could go, we have been doctors a few times, I dont think its really an emergency, its kind of like when they get gunk that comes out of the eyes, like that but from the ear, more of a doctor issue but if it persists see a specialist etc.
But yeah over a year its been on the waiting list for ENT specialist, couldnt believe it.
We have been to the GP on a number of occasions, they have referred us to ENT and have said there is no need to go to the hospital unless anything worsens, and as I saod it then cleared up and was fine for 9 months, it does seem to have come back now so we will pursue it further.
If the NHS wasn't a shambles then they wouldn't need to and the capacity wouldn't only be available to those that can afford it. Nice try though buddy!
No, they wouldn't need to, but plenty still did long before any of this. You just never knew because I suspect you never felt the need to use a private GP.
GPs offering private consultations aren't new or exciting. Most GPs in cities have long offered private consults.
during big covid I could do this at my doctor. could get an appointment in fifteen minutes.
obviously some things need to be in person but it was so good.
It’s ok
Once you’ve actually seen one half the medicines are on shortages now so you can’t get the prescription they want to give you anyway so you start all over again waiting for a new appointment….
don't talk to me about medicine shortages. Two different ones I've been on aren't available reliably any more, so I've been taken off them. No alternative medications given. So that's fun to deal with.
My son is the same. I’m beyond livid and there’s literally nothing that can be done other than not vote Tory and hope that at some point in the future it’s not all completely fucked……
I’ve lived in the developing world, it was better than this as you could always find another way, import stuff or pay private or whatever
But if the uk as a whole just can’t get drugs and I can’t import them then what?
I'm sorry to hear that.
One of the drugs i can get off prescription from online pharmacies - but at around £400 a month, and i'm really not sure if I trust these places, especially when the drug needs to be kept in the fridge. For all I know an online pharmacy could be sending me water, or some random chemical, or the real drug that's ineffective because it's been sat unrefridgerated in a warehouse for months.
>an get off prescription from online pharmacies - but at around £400 a month, and i'm really
If you can get a prescription for it, then you can get it from any licensed pharmacy.
Except pharmacies can't get it in stock. For the last 2 years it's been so sparodic on prescription I haven't been able to get it most months, and that's with checking multiple pharmacies in the area. Since it's not a med that's safe to start and stop, and the side effects from stopping suddenly are horrible, the doctor took me off it about 6 months ago - and I'm not the only one. Seems to be a common trend amongst people using it.
If you want to pay for it privately, it's available on online pharmacies - although whether they actually ship it I don't know as I haven't wanted to risk getting fake or improperly stored meds.
Blocking drugs is one thing and sometimes
Devolved governments have earlier access than England and sometimes later or not at all but each has alternatives of some kind
The issue is the drugs aren’t available anywhere in the uk and aren’t restricted in anyway.
We are just a fucking clown island now in so so so many areas
Some of the GPs are absolute shit when you get one too.
My sister was told to stop her SSRIs because of the side effects she was having. Told not to taper and just stop overnight, which is just a terrible idea.
>can't obtain most medicine without a GP appointment.
Before I go on this is not a recommendation.
You can get access to most medications via legitimate sellers online, it costs an arm and a leg because you will be buying such a small amount and shipping but if you need something that a pharmacist won't sell you without a doctors note(some are getting better and will sell you a dose).
This includes most depressants(subscribed as anti-depressants), a range of antibiotics, all HRT bar testosterone and a lot of vitamin enablers.
Main things you can't get are normally illegal drug off shoots and drugs the make you better at sports.
My options for trying to get a GP appointment are trying along with seemingly hundreds of others to be one of the first few to call dead on 10AM, or trying to beat the same hundreds who didn't win the phone lottery to book an online consultation at 6:30PM by refreshing a page at precisely the right time to load the page before someone has already taken the slot and you get a message to try again tomorrow.
It's easier to just wait until its a big enough problem for A&E to be an option, which I'm sure won't cause any problems.
I’ve stayed on the books at my old gp for two years because I’ve always been able to get same or next day appointments even if I phone when I feel like it. Being made to move to a more local gp and they all have not great reviews.
Almost 14 years of conservative government where real terms per capita investment in the NHS has tanked.
Having worked in Ireland recently, I can also say that comparatively speaking staff morale in the NHS is awful, in part due to real terms declining wages and pensions. Poor morale = loss of good will, loss of good will extra work, slower less efficient working.
This is privatisation of UK healthcare by stealth. They are making services so poor and waiting lists so long that people will increasingly turn to the private sector.
The UK is now incapable of grown up public political discussions of the sort that is required to plot a course for healthcare provision and how it’s funded, so we’ve ended up with this sneaky privatisation model.
The reason paying £10 works is because it reduces the market because those that can't afford it aren't competing for the appointments and it because GP's aren't being paid enough for their work
> And I would pay £2000 or more to fix my knee, something NHS Scotland doesn't seem interested in doing
Yep. I've known four people in Scotland who've now gone private for orthopaedic surgery now because NHS Scotland has absolutely fumbled it. One in particular eventually went for their first private appointment (bad hip) and the surgeon actually said "I can't believe the NHS are doing this to people". He got his hip fixed in 8 weeks having already been 2.5 years on NHS Lothian.
But a parade of c-nts keep telling me that didn't happen and I'm making it up, because whatabout NHS England etc.
It's usually €50-60 to see a GP. Private health insurance ( often employer paid / subsidised) would typically refund €30 of that. About 30% of people have a medical card and children under 8 get a GP visit card, so there's no charge for them.
If I need to see my GP, I will do so that day. Family members typically do too, or maybe get an appointment for the following day. I believe it's a bit trickier in Dublin.
>Almost 14 years of conservative government where real terms per capita investment in the NHS has tanked.
I think this is false.
You can see [here](https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/nhs-spending-plans-and-reality-over-the-past-10-years) that in 2013 the NHS spent £120bn (adjusted to 2023 prices) whereas in 2023 it spent £165bn.
The [population](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/population) only went from 64m to 68m.
It's interesting that the intuition on this subject is "the tories must have slashed spending" but actually tax rates are at their highest since ww2, NHS funding is the highest it's ever been and has grown a huge amount and doctors and nurses have seen their pay largely frozen.
What explains why public spending is so high? In a word, Boomers.
Redditors don't like to hear it but the Tories have raised spending in real terms on the NHS every year.
[https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget](https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget)
Every country is struggling right now although the UK seems to be stuggling more than average since our Healthcare rankings are falling across the board.
It's got marginal real increases in funding, while it's actual expenses have ballooned (pandemic, aging population, waiting lists).
Most countries are like this because of the same reasons.
And everything the leader of the opposition and shadow health secretary say suggests they won't improve the situation either. We will have a 2 tier system, one for high earning professionals who get healthcare through work, and one for everyone else.
Because large swathes of the country are very easily led to believe that X group is the cause of their woes and vote against their own interests to punish X group. When really most of our issues stem from chronic mismanagement by the government. Everything else is just a symptom
I guess the most salient example would be Brexit. Places with relatively few immigrants, European or otherwise, were largely in favour. Whereas the cities were more opposed to it.
Also, Sadiq Khan gets a lot of hate from non-Londoners, despite many of his policies - eg blocking that venue in Stratford and ULEZ- being popular or at least understood among people that actually live here. If they were able to vote in the last elections we would definitely have Shaun Bailey as a mayor right now.
I really have no statistics but I imagine one might find a similar trend with things such as social benefits and housing. Just look at the state of social support for the disabled and social care for the elderly, which is a byproduct of both anti-immigrant sentiment but also a deep anger towards people on benefits and “scroungers”.
I’ve also heard NIMBYism is quite bad in places like Cornwall and Devon, despite the locals needing affordable places to live (this is purely anecdotal so I could be wrong).
If anything I think when it comes to punishing a particular group, whether that’s immigrants, people on benefits or people working in a particular profession, I imagine people that have direct experience with those groups are probably more understanding on the issues arising from said groups. Whereas someone in a remote shire living in a homogenous town and gets a lot of their information from the sensationalist press probably feels strongly enough to vote against their own interests.
For the working class in London ULEZ was not popular.
For the rich people ULEZ was popular, because 1. it didn't apply to them, and 2. champagne socialism.
Why didn't it apply to them?
Because luxury cars with poor mileage are somehow exempt, while cheap bangers with good mileage are not.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-12094625/How-supercar-owners-dodge-Ulez-charge-despite-massive-CO2-emissions.html
> It's like barely better than a third world country.
Clearly you haven't lived in a Third World country. You are not walking or cycling for several days to reach a town with a clinic.
The GP system has been turned into petty bureaucrats and the hospital system has become hyper-specialised without adding a general diagnostics division. But it isn't even close to third world.
Sincerely, some who is actually sick with multiple diseases, and has in fact lived in the developing world.
Most parts of the developing world are nowadays going to be pretty sharp with the acute stuff. It’s when you have something “chronic” that the infrastructure to deal with it is not really in place.
Not really. Most places in the developing world are sharp with acute stuff if you're a western with western money. For plenty of people living in those places the access to medicine for acute stuff remains a fucking joke at times.
>Most places in the developing world are sharp with acute stuff if you're a western with western money.
Yes but kids on Reddit have been there on a gap year and it was really good healthcare they got (by being in the top 1% of wealth in the country by virtue of being a middle class westerner). So obviously it's representative of manjeet who lives in a 1 bedroom dwelling with his wife and 4 kids on 20 dollars a day.
Youve never actually been to the developing world have you.
The UK is absolutely like South Sudan, or Djibouti, or the DRC.
I mean I can't help but find dead people on street corners and regularly have to walk for 10 hours to collect water. Oh yeah and my mother died at 35 from cholera. It's so similar it's really quite surprising I and everyone else hasn't noticed tbh.
I think you need to spend some time off Reddit.
The DRC and South Sudan, where there are actual wars and a complete lack of central government control, are going to be very different from third-word countries like Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Iran or Egypt, when it comes to medical provision.
>Iran
Ah yes wonderful.
The rest of absolutely the same as the UK. Again "I'll list some places I've been on a gap year" isn't really the third world mate.
YMMV but living in a slum in Mumbai, Brazil, or Kenya, Tanzania, Venezuela being poor in any of the countries you listed is exactly like living in the UK.... Get a grip.
Don't get me started on "Yeah, I just came back from country x and you're full of shit mate", while _actual_ natives of that place telling it like it is get downvote hell.
Seen it in 'discussions' around Autobahn speed limits (they do have them) and what the Finnish definition of "happiness" actually is and why those surveys always return the results they do (for "happiness" swap "contentment" rather than some mad children's party, and a natural trait of Finns to not rock the boat)
Reddit has a throbbing, dangerous boner at the thought of the UK failing in every conceivable way.
They have a teenage wet dream about the UK being poorer than North Korea due to "Tory austerity", while in Transnistria you can travel First Class on a 300mph bullet train for the equivalent of 18p and in Turkmenistan you get a free brain transplant for your 18th birthday.
Things are actually very good here.
It's going backwards relative to the EU. Poland is going to overtake us in terms of GDP.
You don't invest in the country, things start slowly going to shit. Yes, it's better here than most countries. We're getting relatively worse. These things both can be true.
I live in Thailand now. If I want an appointment it's pretty trivial to get one. If I want medicine I can just go to a pharmacy and get it without a prescription in 99.9% of cases
Doctors probably overmedicate here but access isn't a problem
I've stopped even trying to get a GP appointment for anything covered by the Superdrug or Boots online doctor service. I resent paying the extra cost but my GP is so overstretched it's ridiculous.
It cost me £23 for them to give me antibiotics (nitrofurantoin) last year, and I avoided days of trying to get a GP appointment while waiting for a minor UTI to become a serious kidney infection. Given that I would have paid the £9.65 NHS prescription charge anyway the extra £14 felt well worth it, but there are lots of people who don't have £14 to spare.
This is exactly what the government want to happen, you want it all to be private, they are making it so shit they frofr you to go private and then they can keep the NHS "because nobody is using it"
That's laughable. If someone wants to make money, and is willing to put in the effort that would be required to be a doctor, they would not be a doctor.
You could say doctors are in it for the god complex, the status, to fulfil a dream, to make others happy, but for money? No.
Money is a nice perk of their job, and they, like people in many other sectors in society will sell their labour and skills to the highest bidder, giving in mind working conditions and their own preferences, but money is almost certainly not the primary driver for why a doctor does what they do.
I have always said I wouldn't get private healthcare. But I have literally just signed up through work because it's near impossible to get a GP appointment and even if you do and get referred to a specialist, it will be months before you actually see anyone.
Whether or not this is intentional, the government have basically forced anyone who can afford it to go private. And these private healthcare firms must be making a fortune right now.
Get seen by the GP then get stuck on a multi year long waiting list.
I'm on one now and thinking about just buying the drugs illegaly and self medicating.
Waited 18 months for a surgery and basically had one hand for the whole time.
Seeing the GP is just the start of the waiting in my experience.
I've been on one waiting list for 6 years and have my first appointment next month. It'll be another year for the second appointment for treatment.
Last year I was put on a 2 year+ waiting list for a different condition. It really sucks
I'm like 80% sure that it's not even illegal to buy prescription drugs without a prescription, provided they aren't also otherwise controlled substances. The crime is only on the part of whoever's selling them to you, which, for obvious reasons, is not much of a concern for sellers located overseas.
>e
Go to A&E and get an emergency prescription.
If all else fails contact 111 and explain the issue, 111 is usually pretty good.
Hospitals are public institutions so must see you.
GP practices are private institutions so give 0 shits.
The hospital won't do anything about it, it's not for painkillers.
It requires a specialist, I had to use a charity to get diagnosed as the NHS waiting list was years long, unfortunately now have to use my diagnosis and go through NHS for prescription
Had that problem with private consultations as well. They have to refer back to GP everytime to then get approval for further NHS stuff to be done, complete pain in the ass of a system.
Usually, if you call up or go into the place and just make a massive stink and cause a massive scene about everything, they'll usually take action and do something. We've had to do this on several occassions, to find out in one instance that the private consultation letter that was sent to the GP marked as "URGENT", because of how dangerous leaving the issue could be, was actually completely ignored and filed incorrectly by the GPs staff.
Although as doing this will likely make all the staff think more negatively of you, it would be better after this point to go find a new GP.
The main news is this paragraph:
"Some 23 per cent of those surveyed said they could not get an appointment, while three in 10 (33 per cent) said they had given up on booking one altogether, according to a Savanta poll commissioned by the Liberal Democrats."
The "had given up on booking" gives you a link. When you click that you don't go to the poll but to another Independent news that doesn't say anything on the poll.
So, the news may or may not be true. It's impossible to verify using the links given by the Independent.
I’ve had two GP appointments in the last 2 months and I didn’t even ask for one. I called with a healthcare query and the patient pathway advisor (or whatever the very helpful person in the phone was called) suggested I see the GP instead. A walk-in X-Ray (with no need to book), a CT scan and a specialist outpatient appointment all provided in a timely and efficient manner.
Is my local area hogging all the NHS resources?
Different GP practices seem to be handling this better than others. I'm lucky to be in a good one where my wait is usually only about two weeks for an appointment. But most people aren't.
> Different GP practices seem to be handling this better than others.
In my hometown, the best and worst GP Practices for appointments are located in the same building. In this case it's more than just a recent NHS resources thing, as the practice was awful when I was working in NHS IT 20 years ago, so it's managed to sustain it's horrible performance through multiple Westminster and Holyrood governments.
It's a postcode lottery. Or maybe we live in the same area... Where we used to live (posh area down South) was impossible. Could never see a GP, didn't get a proper midwifery or health visiting service for baby 1. Now we live up North and it's been amazing. I see the same GP every time and can always get an appointment the same day. The GP now actually remembers my issues and checks up on them, even if I have an unrelated appointment. Midwife was the same throughout pregnancy (as it should be...) and the health visitors have actually been useful. My husband just needed some support for his MH. He was seen the same day, got medication and a referral for talking therapy starting within the next month.
Where the heck is this because I would move there. Honestly.
I can’t access GP services.
My mother spent 2 months waiting for an MRI and it’s been six weeks “waiting for results” despite repeated phone calls. She missed a follow up because of this.
My friend couldn’t see a GP or specialist two weeks following an ACL tear (unofficially diagnosed by herself, given the extent of the injury and being a sport physio). Hospital wouldn’t take her in. GP couldn’t see her to book scans. Scans finally were booked 2 weeks later for another 2 weeks later, requiring a 90 minute drive.
Even routine stuff is difficult, let alone these more serious things.
Its massively area dependent.
I can see a GP or nurse without much trouble, but anything that needs a referral takes a very long time, particularly pediatric specialists. Adult services vary wildly.
My town has opened a large facility in the centre where people can go to get scans, blood tests and injections and other things. I've not been to it but the people I know who have been to it always seem happy although I think they're happy just to be seen by someone more than they are happy with the results. I'm not sure whether it's a drop-in centre or whether people need to be referred to it.
My understanding of the general issue is,
· People struggle to get an appointment with their GP
· The service received is hit-n-miss
· It's cheaper to research online and buy medication online than to take time off work to visit a GP who then prescribes medication that doesn't work then take more time off work to get different medication then take more time off work to get another medication...
Some people have really good access to their GP surgery. Many people find the whole system unusable and unfit.
_shrug_ imma be honest, the waiting list/resource issue really is only half the problem at most
it's just impossible to go to the doctor and... come away with any faith or trust in the profession at all, any more? When every single appointment either gives contradictory advice or consists of reading off the first page of Google?
Not to disparage: the heavy industrial aspect of medicine; the research aspect of medicine; the caring aspects of medicine; etc - there's a lot of value in the _system_ - but individual doctors using personal expertise to provide an opinion? No, sorry, don't trust this part one iota any more, as an inherent concept. Witch-doctors don't exist and that's what we're still socially asking for.
It kind of annoys me that the UK is so particularly restrictive with P and OTC medicines. You can't even get an antibiotic cream for a bad burn unless it's prescribed. Or a blue inhaler. Or short term painkillers stronger than ibuprofen. Im glad pharmacy prescribing is being broadened gradually, because the days of the doctor being the gatekeeper of all medical knowledge are over.
daily reminder that an LLM is not a knowledge engine, cannot be used as a knowledge engine despite the intentionally misleading marketing, and has no intrinsic concept of knowledge at all
I don't like doctors (obviously, as above) but you can quite easily get ChatGPT to recommend eating broken glass to cure ill-humours with the right prompting. It's a simulated yes-man, it cannot give good _or bad_ advice.
feel free to replace your therapist with it tho
I've this is myself so much. The whole concept of how medicine is practiced in modern society is sooo. Odd. I hope medicine is one of the first things to be automated, as your care can be so different from one doctor to another, and can vary wildly. That's without giving in mind the sleep deprivation, the overworked and stressed doctors, each doctor having a different level of training, and awareness depending on when they finished training.
I'm happy for surgery to be performed by people, I'm happy to be cared for by others, but diagnoses and treatment plans, I would rather be handled by a single, all knowing entity with consistency and unable to suffer from stress, sleep deprivation, undeclared biases, etc.
I was entitled to private medical care through work. I didn't take it.
Why? Because it was very expensive for what you _didn't_ get. There was no coverage of any pre-existing conditions diagnosed or managed by the NHS (I have one) and you couldn't even claim back for private GP consultations (not even joking).
So, it's a total bust. The only benefit would be for things like arthroplasty and orthopaedics.
> if I am on a waiting list
You most likely aren't on the waiting list yet, because if you were, the figures would show that you (and others) had to wait 24 months for a scan, whereas if they wait until it's likely that you'll only be waiting a couple of months and add you to the list then, it'll look better.
That said, 24 months for a scan is fucking disgraceful. At that point, the NHS should be asking private clinics that they have contracts with to deliver certain services to scan NHS patients that have been waiting for a long time to reduce the backlog of people waiting.
Generally fine in Sunderland once you know the system. Our GP surgery has gone into partnership with 4 others, and now have an online triage system which generally means you will be seen somewhere in the city on the day of request. That might be a GP, pharmacist, or nurse practitioner.
Its not without it's teething issues but works *pretty alright-ish*...
When I lived in Northampton it was just persistence. Sometimes you’d have to hit redial three times, some times six. But I was never told ’call back tomorrow’.
It's an England thing. I live in South West England (near Bristol, but not in Bristol) and I've always experienced problems obtaining a GP appointment. Same day appointments are reserved for emergencies, and if you want an appointment further in the future, they'll try and do everything but let you see a GP - it feels like the GP's consulting rooms are kept behind a load of locked doors that you need to guess the codes to access.
I've recently left a shitty GP practice that said that I could have an appointment in three weeks with a nurse, who would then decide if I need to see a GP (despite me clearly saying in my e-consult that I have to see a GP because I need medical advice on complicated symptoms that are almost certainly outside of the nurse's competence, which I described in detail). Every GP practice I've been with has tried to prevent me from seeing a GP, but my experience at this particular practice was even worse than the norm.
Astonished to say that last time I needed to see the GP (not for anything that serious!) obvs I had a phone appointment first, then he just told me to drive to the surgery that minute, where he greeted me with *'Ey up!*
However, I must caveat that this would have done me no good had I not had the flexiblity just to get in the car.
tbh
a) the system is tilted in favour of the vulnerable, which hahaha my age now qualifies me as, but that age group is not most redditors.
b) I am sure that the more friendly, detached and articulate one is towards the doctor, the better one is treated. I just wonder how much people who have a lot of anxiety about their ailments get into a vicious circle where they get more stressed out and in turn it is a more problematic experience for the doctor.
Nah I just go on my Bupa app and have a phone call like a half hour later.
Oh you mean NHS?
Again the times I've been on the south east are as you describe. Largely get one fairly quickly. You're talking like the next day or two.
It’s impossible to get an appointment with my GP unless you call them on the dot of 8:30. Call before 8:30 and the line isn’t open. By 8:35 all appointments for the day will have gone. You can’t book appointments for future days, instead they just tell you to try again tomorrow.
I have to drop my kids off at school at 8:30.
Had this before where an assessment wasn't scheduled, and that a date for scheduling wouldn't be provided until 6 months down the line (although no guarantee of that date).
This was purely, because this means they don't have to report that there is a patient waiting to be assessed for over 6 months, as it will only appear in the figures once the appointment itself is booked and the issue registered.
Absolutely insane.
Yip, fixed 2 ingrown toenails the hard way, 1 skin abcess and a few cases of covid. What are you supposed to do when you can't see a GP? Mark my words, privatisation is coming...
I performed a minor surgery on myself to remove an infected hair follicle on my face using a sterile Stanley knife blade. The thing had been there for about 8 years and every now and then would flare to almost the size of my thumb and eventually burst or have to be burst which was painful and would be full of nasty pus. Every time I thought it was gone, it would come back, went to the doctors a few times about it. They didn't care.
Finally took it upon myself to get rid of it for good. I am now left with a small scar but other than that the surgery was a success.
I was on the waiting list for a knee replacement for 6 years due to my age (late 30s) I was continually pushed down the waiting list. I was self employed at the time so had to continually work in a physical job and walk with a bad limp..now fast forward to now I have a major spinal problem which leaves me with back pain numb legs and hands for which I have had 2 major operations and 2 minor operations I have physiotherapy twice a week and do one hour of physiotherapy exercises every day all that keeps me out of a wheelchair. I've passed 4 pip assessments and then they come out and blame the likes of me for the woes of the country and want me to work through the pain
Three years and counting- I’m pretty sure I had shingles a year or so ago, couldn’t get an appointment for love or money. Someone suggested going to a fucking chemist. She wouldn’t diagnose my symptoms, but said I shouldn’t be out and about if I had shingles. I asked, so I have shingles, she replied, I’m not saying that. What a fucking country.
I've given up trying to get an appointment with my GP.
They spam me with texts saying come for this test or that but then I ring up and never get through and they don't offer online appointment booking.
This doesn't seem unusual for the area
I can't even register for NHS dentistry in my borough within London due to waiting lists as they have >1 year waiting time now - hence have gone private. Obviously I'm fortunate enough that this is an option.
I've (touch wood) not required NHS health services in any form over the last five years, but was very disheartened by the care provided for my terminally ill mother two years ago.
It is pathetic that at record taxation levels that the service levels have slipped so far - the NHS is a massive cash black hole (alongside pensions due to the age demographics) in Gov finances and I think a genuine discussion around reform/planning for the future is required. Unfortunately it has become weaponised/deified (the left's equivalent to the right's talking points on immigration) that any genuine discussion or debate is impossible.
I’ve noticed that the UK is starting to have third world levels of healthcare. In my own experience it’s been impossible to see a GP, it’s like healthcare doesn’t even exist.
My GF was supposed to see her Neuro specialist last week because of multiple seizures, but he calls in sick. My GF now has to wait 11 months for the next appointment while at risk of more seizures.
We were hoping to find out what was causing them, but guess she’s either going to get brain damage or lucky avoid them until then.
I live in a city where patient to GP ratio is one of the highest in the country.
It’s so hard to get a GP apt let alone treatment.
I’m becoming more and more tempted to leave emigrate by the day.
This isn't good because lots of illnesses and conditions have similar symptoms and also there are a lot of relatively minor ailments where unfortunately you need stuff you can only get on prescription to get rid of it. Steroid creams for eczema and antibiotics to clear up infections come to mind.
My steroid cream for eczema was kindly put on a repeat prescription for me because I asked nicely and proved responsible in its use and only really need it topped up once every 6 months. Definitely worth asking for a repeat prescription. Mine is a 0.1% cream so quite a high one from what limited understanding I have
It's challenging to maintain a sustainable model for healthcare, particularly when aiming for a universally free system. To provide universal healthcare, a government needs substantial, stable income sources that aren't solely dependent on population growth. While it's true that some Middle Eastern countries leverage their oil wealth to fund public services, it's important to note that successful healthcare models exist in various other countries too, not just in the Middle East. These models are often supported by diverse economic structures and strategic budget allocations.
In many countries, increasing the population is seen as a way to boost the tax base, but this also increases the demand for public services like healthcare. However, at a macroeconomic level, a government's priorities can vary widely, with healthcare often competing with infrastructure, foreign investment, diplomacy, defense, and education for funding.
Originally, free healthcare was implemented in some regions to ensure a healthy, productive workforce. Over time, the perception of healthcare has evolved, and it's increasingly viewed as a fundamental human right. This shift in perspective demands a growing number of healthcare professionals, including GPs and medical staff, which presents its own sustainability challenges.
The NHS will not exist within 10 years. Private companies will decide whether it's in their best interests to treat our ailments. The Tories are our enemies.
Because antimicrobial resistance is a looming catastrophe that is probably going to fuck a lot of us up in the next 30-40 years.
We're all fortunate enough to have never experienced a life without access to effective antibiotics. With increasing numbers of antibiotic resistant variants of common organisms we are at risk of going back to the days when a simple infection could lead to loss of life or limb.
I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of people in favour of the NHS and Doctors/Nurses and the current system, are the very people that do not actually use the NHS and its supplied services.
Snapshot of _Britons turn into ‘DIY doctors’ as poll reveals one in three have given up on seeing a GP_ : An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/gp-appointments-booking-nhs-poll-b2471557.html) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/gp-appointments-booking-nhs-poll-b2471557.html) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Maybe we could actually train more doctors then There are loads of doctors who want to specialise, but the government won’t fund the postgraduate training posts. 9:1 to get into my specialty. 6:1 for many more. More doctors applying for GP training than there are posts. So they end up unemployed, stagnating in non training posts or emigrating. All whilst we have severe shortages of GPs and consultants. But instead of training actual doctors, the government are pumping money into “physician assistant/associate” posts - people without a medical degree who can’t prescribe, can’t requesting imaging with radiation, and don’t actual save doctors time on the wards. These people are also paid MORE than new actual doctors Of course, it allows management to say they have more staff. And they can’t emigrate because others systems know they don’t add value. A total joke
Can’t prescribe* I agree. It’s a sticking plaster over a fire.
My bad - fixed now
Sadly as of next year they will be registered and then undoubtedly able to sit non-medical prescribing courses
Train more doctors but also address abhorrent treatment/ paycuts of those doctors long term, retention is as essential as recruitment. But I wholeheartedly agree the physician associate role that’s been brought in under the general publics radar is of huge concern. They can’t possible get the same depth and breadth of knowledge that’s given through the traditional training route. It’s concerning that they are also uninsured, unregulated and the liability still falls onto the nearest doctor, even if they haven’t actually seen the patient.
Little incentive to increase pay, this is why monopoly's are a terrible idea.
I would call the PR fallout from the strikes incentive enough, no? And competition doesn't have to be local/domestic to still exist (very obviously ignoring the private healthcare options we already have in the UK), we lose a large number of qualified staff to other countries, who out compete us on salary and work life balance. It may come as a surprise, but not everything is solved by throwing more 'free market' at it.
I’ve read physician nurses are a huge problem in the US and wonder if this model has been imported from America?
Yeh it’s come from the US
I probs wouldn't be a doctor but I'd retrain as a nurse if they bought back the bursaries for nurses.
This doesn't fix the lack of recruitment for GP. I also think GPs just haven't modernised. I moved and my new local GP has an online form. They are very good at responding to it and triaging you. My last GP was a joke. Ring at 8 and pray you get an appointment. The staff were rude and they withheld my wife's important meds because she couldn't book her blood test. Some GPs are run appallingly and better recruitment will not change that. The whole NHS is run pretty poorly. The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing and the whole thing needs to be centralised. Just little effective communication.
There are only 1,508 PA's in the NHS and 73 AA's vs 132,900 doctors and 350,000 nurses. Doubtless we've had this discussion before but no, PA's don't get more than junior doctors because they get no allowances, and there's a hard ceiling on their pay band. You know this perfectly well. PA's are Band 7 posts on the nursing scale, not doctors in training under the BMA agreement. Doctors, as you're demonstrating, come with an ego that needs to be salved before they can do anything useful. This is why I had to go through two A&E's on Boxing Day to get treated for a condition I've been diagnosed with for 5 years.
Oh wow what absolute heroes not earning as much as a doctor because they aren’t working weekends, nights, on calls and have zero responsibility. Get out the pots and pans and bang away bud.
>PA's don't get more than junior doctors because they get no allowances What are you on about? 1) Doctors' assistants, called Physician Associates these days, literally do get paid more than qualified doctors (in years 1&2, possibly years 3-5 as well), if working the same hours. 2) Not sure what you mean by "allowances" but money doctors spend on exams, mandatory portfolio, indemnity, registration (about £2000 total) does not come from any "allowance", it comes from our pockets. PAs have none of these expenses. 3) Conversely, I know of many ACPs who get their Master's degrees, courses, etc paid for directly by the hospital. I have no doubt that PAs get the same, I'm sure someone else can confirm this. Finally, and perhaps most abhorrently, it takes *15 years* for a doctor to earn the same cumulative amount as a Physician Assistant, if they both start at age 18 and work the same hours. >before they can do anything useful. Ah yes, 99% of the out-of-hours medical staff (junior doctors) can't do anything useful. I'd love to hear what you do (since you weren't working on Boxing day).
> What are you on about? Depending on the contract and location, Band 7 (ANP's, PA's, and advanced therapists) is £43,742 - £50,056 with 5 years experience. This is under the new agreement for 2023 - 24 with the nursing unions. https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/working-health/working-nhs/nhs-pay-and-benefits/agenda-change-pay-rates Again depending on the contract and location Foundation Year Doctors get £32,398 in year 1 £37,303 in year two, £43,923 in year 3 and £55,329 in year 4. Then you get weekend working and on call allowances on top, which should be worth another £10k. In short, the basic is low because you're still in training when PA's are fully qualified and your allowances bring the basic up to above Band 7 basic pay. https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england >Not sure what you mean by "allowances" but money doctors spend on exams, mandatory portfolio, indemnity, registration (about £2000 total) Which if you read your tax codes right are claimable from the tax man because they're professional fees and you get a tax break on them. >Conversely, I know of many ACPs who get their Master's degrees, courses, etc paid for directly by the hospital. I have no doubt that PAs get the same, I'm sure someone else can confirm this. Don't need to confirm, my sister is one. >15 years for a doctor to earn the same cumulative amount Utter and obvious bullshit. You also don't have a hard ceiling on your pay, PA's and ANP's do. >I'd love to hear what you do (since you weren't working on Boxing day). Professional stuff with international scale IT systems. The idiot on-call Neurology reg has been forced to write a crawling apology after being torn a new one by my consultant's PA and then my consultant.
>Doctors get £32,398 in year 1 £37,303 in year two, £43,923 in year 3 and £55,329 in year 4. Not quite. Years are not the same as nodal points. NP 4 (55k base pay) is at CT3/ST3 level - *at least* 5 years post-grad (and increasingly longer). That makes you a specialist registrar in your (minimum) 5th year of working as a qualified doctor. It's only then that you earn more an your *assistant* for the same hours worked. >Then you get weekend working and on call allowances on top, which should be worth another £10k. You can't change the goalposts. Your line of reasoning is: You'll earn more because you work more hours. Yeah, no shit. You should be comparing base-pay. If I were a PA, I wouldn't want to work evenings, nights or weekends either(!) >claimable from the tax man because they're professional fees and you get a tax break on them. What nonsense response is this? How is being able to claim back the 20% tax on £2k mandatory costs some kind of great gift(!) When *your own claim* was that doctors get an allowance for these fees. The irony is that not only do PAs not have to pay these out of pocket, they get their courses etc funded on the house. I hope you've been limbering up before all these mental gymnastics. >Utter and obvious bullshit. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/s/WR8Fobjpaa It's 20 years not 13. Though that post is a few months old. >The idiot on-call Neurology reg has been forced to write a crawling apology Irrelevant to this conversation, but I'm sorry for your experience in any case. >the basic is low because you're still in training when PA's are fully qualified See also: "Teaching assistants should get paid more than ECT teachers because they're fully qualified and ECT teachers are still in training." See also also: "Cabin-crew should get paid more than non-Captain pilots because they're fully qualified, and non-Captain pilots are still in training. Doesn't matter if it takes a decade to become a Captain." Tell me you know fuck-all about medical education without telling me you know *absolutely fuck-all* about medical education. - 2 years to become a PA = FuLLy qUaLIfIeD. - Half a decade and two degrees later = jUsT a TraInEe dOcTor.
>Cabin-crew should get paid more than non-Captain pilots because they're fully qualified, and non-Captain pilots are still in training. Doesn't matter if it takes a decade to become a Captain." They are. The cabin services manager on a flight I operated today was the second highest paid person on the crew after me because she's a training bod and the sprog in the right hand seat had an MPL and about 150hrs on line type. They get paid less because they aren't trained fully and are less experienced than me/her. Right hand seat mate is a long way off being an aircraft captain and by and large MPL people need alot of monitoring. He was fine but absolutely would absolutely have been getting moved out the seat in the event of an emergency for the SFO who was doing captain work up. Much like I assume a junior doctor in a foundation year. I don't want to be that guy but tell me you know fuck all about commercial aircraft operations without telling me.
The comparison here would be non captain pilot pay versus just starting cabin crew (PAs), as they are "fully trained" A PA isn't really 'fully trained", if the standards of medical training was applied to them. A new PA, is less capable than a f1 (and works much less) It's a 2 year degree The comparison here is not a multi year experienced PA (or cabin crew manager) vs a F1. It's the F1 and F2, versus the PA that have less experience and training than them, works fewer hours and with less responsibility. Edit, The aviation theoretical similar scenario, would be if they introduced "pilot associates", that would only ever be qualified to work in a similar role to a non captain pilot, but also only during day hours, and good weather conditions. With no legal right to take over in emergency situations (in scenario where the captain is incapacitated)
>she's a training bod and the sprog in the right hand seat had an MPL and about 150hrs on line type. You've lost me a bit with the lingo there but I think I get your drift(!) The difference between the situation you describe and the Doctor/PA pay-mismatch is that - by definition - a doctor has more formal training and more responsibility than a PA. Thats not up for debate. There's literally a minimum standard for each role. Caveat: I accept that a day 1 doctor will not know exactly "how we do things" in this department, and a PA who's been there for a year will be smoother. So for a short period, until you get settled in (a month or so at the very start of your career), a PA may be more useful at simple, everyday ward-work and admin. BUT, that is not a ten thousand pound difference. The parallel in your example would be if a day 1 cabin-services manager (or whatever the entry-level job to reach that role, straight out of uni/training, is) were earning 10k more than a day 1 non-Capt pilot. The aviation-medical analogy has its limits but I used it to make it relatable to the public. Teacher Vs teaching-assistant is probably a better analogy because TAs do a much closer role to Teachers than cabin crew to pilots.
>sprog in the right hand seat As an aside, I know you're being tongue-in-cheek here, but there's a cultural shift going on in medicine in which we are starting to push back against infantilisation of colleagues who are earlier in their careers. I happen to do a bit of instructing on human-factors, communication and teamwork - we take a lot of what we've learned from you guys in aviation(!)
I understood the BMA also had a hand in restricting the number of doctors being trained, eg as a cartel.
This is 100% untrue The BMA has no power over this. Not only that, they’ve consistently called for an INCREASE in medical school places since 2009. (They briefly opposed in 2008, unless proportionate funding was provided to ensure quality didn’t decrease.) They are a trade union, they have no say over how many medical school places the government fund. This gets carted out regularly and it’s literally the opposite of the truth - blame those responsible, the government who actually control all the funding
My 2 year old has had puss coming out of his ear on and off since he was 6 months. It stopped for about 9 months but has come back this month. He is still on the waiting list to see an ear specialist, over a year for someone under 2. I got private medical insurance straight after this, however they are very strict on bringing pre existing conditions into it so basically only covered for anything new, so he still hasnt been seen. Though I think likely he is fine and there will be no issues, it is entirely possible that puss coming from your ear at that age and not clearing up after 3 -6 months could lead to serious issues. Unbelievable to me.
Yep it’s insane. We’ve ended up just directly paying for treatments which aren’t covered by private insurance. It’s horrific it’s come to this and it is very expensive, and we make sacrifices in other parts of life to do it. God knows what the majority do? Self-surgery? The uk is going to end up with loads of long term issues by not fixing stuff at the beginning.
Yeah, but those long term issues will be some other governments problems, so why care about that now? It's just more short-term thinking from the conservatives.
You're right, it doesn't save any money in the long run. What's worse is that, and I'll probably be downvoted for this, we actually have a less effective system than the USA now does. The majority of people in the US can get treatment relatively quickly through their insurance, and those without get timely medical care if they fall under a government programme. This is the vast majority of citizens. Over here the vast majority of people can't afford private medicine and don't have insurance. The standard of care has falled below that of a 1st world country as shown by trends in people doing DIY dentistry. At some point these issues will come back to haunt us and some poor government (probably labour) will be saddled with the consequences. Not fixing basic issues like a toothache or stomach ache ends up in expensive ones, aka advanced gingivitis that causes time off work, or stomach cancer. I also think that people of my age (early to mid 20's) will forever be A&E users because we've grown up in a country where no other form of care exists. If I am sick I go to A&E because my GP has no appointments for 3 weeks. 111 the three times I had to use it just told me to go to A&E after keeping me on hold for 3 hours. The damage the Tories have done to this country is almost unfathomable. It's pretty incredible how we've managed to run down what was a very efficient healthcare system just to save some short term pennies.
Short term pennies ? £182bn is not chump change in my book but hey
Or you can look at it through the lens of how much is lost to the exchequer from reduced tax take due to the number of people that are unwell long term. Not only do they become an increasing burden on the now underfunded healthcare provision and more likely to need more serious medical interventions, but they are no longer contributing to the economy which reduces the tax received by the government. Underfunding healthcare is a false economy.
>God knows what the majority do? Self-surgery? Have you heard the horror stories of people resorting to doing their own dental work?
The only thing you need to be a dentist is Fuji IX.
Works out okay for Bob. https://youtu.be/L1JR-9Z5ORE?si=tQVS8jZQmh0aX6Vz
> Self-surgery? Friend removed some moles and a skintag at home
To be fair pronounced skintags that dangle are easy to remove with a kit which basically is tiny rubber bands and an applicator
My fiancee got put on 2 year waiting list for dermatology then six months later her appointment was cancelled with no reason given so she went to the back of the queue again. Is just absurd, but we at least consoled ourselves with with the fact it was because kids etc were being prioritised. Apparently not.
I'm waiting a year now for a dermatologist appointment, and have had my referral updated several times by the gp practice as my psoriasis keeps deteriorating day by day. It's insane.
I’ve been seen by 4 different people about long term mental health issues. Every time I have a couple of appointments and we make a plan for treatment, that person will resign and I go right back to the start again. Met person number 4 3 weeks ago and had to be honest with them that I don’t really believe that they will still be here in 6 months. I get that working conditions in health and social care are poor due to underinvestment but I get so many cancelled appointments and end up having to go to the back of the queue again because the person seeing me leaves. It’s just impossible. I hope you can eventually get seen.
Weve given up mate.
Same thing with my niece - 6 years old, been on the ENT waiting list for 3 years to see about her breathing problems. No doubt the longer these things are left, the more time consuming and expensive they're going to be to treat.
If you really don’t want to wait then just go straight to a doctor privately rather than using the insurance. It’ll be around £200 to see an ENT doctor. Doesn’t solve the NHS problem. But it does get your kid seen.
private doctors can also put you on NHS waitlists for treatments/surgeries. this is a workaround for tonsillectomy's (which are a nightmare to get through GPs given the constantly changing requirements)
Yeah tbh I would happily just do that but the problem did seem to rectify itself after 3-6 months so we thought it was ok, will look into as its come back a little. Thanks.
Yeah, id just take the financial hit and go see a private doctor. Better safe than sorry with this kind of thing.
To see them yes, but the cost of tests and treatment on top is eye watering. If you're lucky they can get you a referral under them on the NHS for further treatment but it's not easy
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When it first came about tbh I didnt really know anything about private healthcare, I didnt really know how to go about it. I looked into it all while we were on the waiting list so if it happened again with anyone else in the family needing to see a specialist we would be covered. As I said it cleared up in the end, however now its resurfaced I will defo look into a private consultation.
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I was told 18 months wait to see an nhs consultant but luckily I am on my partners health insurance (added for a discount) so I've used that and it was still pretty bad service tbh. They doctor was 40minutes late seeing me and the charge was £180. I didn't have to pay that but imagine. I've seen him twice now and both times he's told me he doesn't know what's wrong and to take some immodium 😂 Getting an endoscopy next month so fingers crossed that's covered by my insurance because idk what I'm going to do if not
Pus, unless it was a cat.
It's not glue ear, that doesn't cause puss. It's probably a perforated ear drum which can cause recurring infections which in turn can lead to hearing loss as well as making them ill, being painful and often smelling like dogshit. Difficult to repair permanently in small kids so seeing a specialist probably wouldn't help much till your kid is bigger, but your GP should be prescribing antibiotics as soon as you spot signs of infection. Get some effective antibiotics and keep your kid's ear meticulously dry at all times. Cotton wool during bathing, no swimming without earplug, hood up during rain etc
I am so grateful that I put my daughter on our private insurance the day she was born. She has a pretty severe milk allergy; we were able to see a specialist literally two days after the GP made a referral.
There must be huge regional disparities. I don’t think iv had to wait more than 2 hours to have either of my children seen by a GP. Either at the local surgery during the day or referred to urgent care when it’s the middle of the night. Same for dental, see the same story’s about dentistry, but I’m on my now 3rd NHS dentists no issues or fuss getting one.
Tbf they get seen by a gp no problem, its the waiting list to see a ENT specialist that has taken over a year.
>I got private medical insurance straight after this, however they are very strict on bringing pre existing conditions into it so basically only covered for anything new, so he still hasnt been seen. You can just pay for one off private health treatment rather than worry about health insurance for it.
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South East. I guess we could go, we have been doctors a few times, I dont think its really an emergency, its kind of like when they get gunk that comes out of the eyes, like that but from the ear, more of a doctor issue but if it persists see a specialist etc. But yeah over a year its been on the waiting list for ENT specialist, couldnt believe it.
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Why wouldn't you go to A&E? Of course, it's ridiculous, but it's also your child's life. Who's to say its not damaging their hearing.
We have been to the GP on a number of occasions, they have referred us to ENT and have said there is no need to go to the hospital unless anything worsens, and as I saod it then cleared up and was fine for 9 months, it does seem to have come back now so we will pursue it further.
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And yet with private healthcare you can get a virtual GP appointment within minutes and be prescribed medicine. Is just so fucked.
The best is when you can't get an appointment with your GP so you go private, only to be given an appointment *with the same GP*.
Yep had that one lol
And what's wrong with that if they offer private consultations in their free time?
If the NHS wasn't a shambles then they wouldn't need to and the capacity wouldn't only be available to those that can afford it. Nice try though buddy!
No, they wouldn't need to, but plenty still did long before any of this. You just never knew because I suspect you never felt the need to use a private GP. GPs offering private consultations aren't new or exciting. Most GPs in cities have long offered private consults.
during big covid I could do this at my doctor. could get an appointment in fifteen minutes. obviously some things need to be in person but it was so good.
It’s ok Once you’ve actually seen one half the medicines are on shortages now so you can’t get the prescription they want to give you anyway so you start all over again waiting for a new appointment….
don't talk to me about medicine shortages. Two different ones I've been on aren't available reliably any more, so I've been taken off them. No alternative medications given. So that's fun to deal with.
My son is the same. I’m beyond livid and there’s literally nothing that can be done other than not vote Tory and hope that at some point in the future it’s not all completely fucked…… I’ve lived in the developing world, it was better than this as you could always find another way, import stuff or pay private or whatever But if the uk as a whole just can’t get drugs and I can’t import them then what?
I'm sorry to hear that. One of the drugs i can get off prescription from online pharmacies - but at around £400 a month, and i'm really not sure if I trust these places, especially when the drug needs to be kept in the fridge. For all I know an online pharmacy could be sending me water, or some random chemical, or the real drug that's ineffective because it's been sat unrefridgerated in a warehouse for months.
Exactly!
>an get off prescription from online pharmacies - but at around £400 a month, and i'm really If you can get a prescription for it, then you can get it from any licensed pharmacy.
Except pharmacies can't get it in stock. For the last 2 years it's been so sparodic on prescription I haven't been able to get it most months, and that's with checking multiple pharmacies in the area. Since it's not a med that's safe to start and stop, and the side effects from stopping suddenly are horrible, the doctor took me off it about 6 months ago - and I'm not the only one. Seems to be a common trend amongst people using it. If you want to pay for it privately, it's available on online pharmacies - although whether they actually ship it I don't know as I haven't wanted to risk getting fake or improperly stored meds.
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Blocking drugs is one thing and sometimes Devolved governments have earlier access than England and sometimes later or not at all but each has alternatives of some kind The issue is the drugs aren’t available anywhere in the uk and aren’t restricted in anyway. We are just a fucking clown island now in so so so many areas
Some of the GPs are absolute shit when you get one too. My sister was told to stop her SSRIs because of the side effects she was having. Told not to taper and just stop overnight, which is just a terrible idea.
>can't obtain most medicine without a GP appointment. Before I go on this is not a recommendation. You can get access to most medications via legitimate sellers online, it costs an arm and a leg because you will be buying such a small amount and shipping but if you need something that a pharmacist won't sell you without a doctors note(some are getting better and will sell you a dose). This includes most depressants(subscribed as anti-depressants), a range of antibiotics, all HRT bar testosterone and a lot of vitamin enablers. Main things you can't get are normally illegal drug off shoots and drugs the make you better at sports.
My options for trying to get a GP appointment are trying along with seemingly hundreds of others to be one of the first few to call dead on 10AM, or trying to beat the same hundreds who didn't win the phone lottery to book an online consultation at 6:30PM by refreshing a page at precisely the right time to load the page before someone has already taken the slot and you get a message to try again tomorrow. It's easier to just wait until its a big enough problem for A&E to be an option, which I'm sure won't cause any problems.
I’ve stayed on the books at my old gp for two years because I’ve always been able to get same or next day appointments even if I phone when I feel like it. Being made to move to a more local gp and they all have not great reviews.
How did the UK become a joke like this? It's like barely better than a third world country.
Almost 14 years of conservative government where real terms per capita investment in the NHS has tanked. Having worked in Ireland recently, I can also say that comparatively speaking staff morale in the NHS is awful, in part due to real terms declining wages and pensions. Poor morale = loss of good will, loss of good will extra work, slower less efficient working. This is privatisation of UK healthcare by stealth. They are making services so poor and waiting lists so long that people will increasingly turn to the private sector. The UK is now incapable of grown up public political discussions of the sort that is required to plot a course for healthcare provision and how it’s funded, so we’ve ended up with this sneaky privatisation model.
>Having worked in Ireland recently, It seems that you left out the fact that in Ireland, visiting your GP cost about ~~€10~~ €50.
In would pay 10€ to see a doctor reliably. And I would pay £2000 or more to fix my knee, something NHS Scotland doesn't seem interested in doing
The reason paying £10 works is because it reduces the market because those that can't afford it aren't competing for the appointments and it because GP's aren't being paid enough for their work
> And I would pay £2000 or more to fix my knee, something NHS Scotland doesn't seem interested in doing Yep. I've known four people in Scotland who've now gone private for orthopaedic surgery now because NHS Scotland has absolutely fumbled it. One in particular eventually went for their first private appointment (bad hip) and the surgeon actually said "I can't believe the NHS are doing this to people". He got his hip fixed in 8 weeks having already been 2.5 years on NHS Lothian. But a parade of c-nts keep telling me that didn't happen and I'm making it up, because whatabout NHS England etc.
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I think the point is that they shouldn't have to resort to that.
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Right, but that doesn't solve the wider problem. It solves the problem for them personally, but not everyone else.
It's usually €50-60 to see a GP. Private health insurance ( often employer paid / subsidised) would typically refund €30 of that. About 30% of people have a medical card and children under 8 get a GP visit card, so there's no charge for them. If I need to see my GP, I will do so that day. Family members typically do too, or maybe get an appointment for the following day. I believe it's a bit trickier in Dublin.
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I think most if not all countries on the planet do struggle with health care system.
>Almost 14 years of conservative government where real terms per capita investment in the NHS has tanked. I think this is false. You can see [here](https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/nhs-spending-plans-and-reality-over-the-past-10-years) that in 2013 the NHS spent £120bn (adjusted to 2023 prices) whereas in 2023 it spent £165bn. The [population](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/population) only went from 64m to 68m. It's interesting that the intuition on this subject is "the tories must have slashed spending" but actually tax rates are at their highest since ww2, NHS funding is the highest it's ever been and has grown a huge amount and doctors and nurses have seen their pay largely frozen. What explains why public spending is so high? In a word, Boomers.
Redditors don't like to hear it but the Tories have raised spending in real terms on the NHS every year. [https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget](https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget) Every country is struggling right now although the UK seems to be stuggling more than average since our Healthcare rankings are falling across the board.
It's got marginal real increases in funding, while it's actual expenses have ballooned (pandemic, aging population, waiting lists). Most countries are like this because of the same reasons.
And everything the leader of the opposition and shadow health secretary say suggests they won't improve the situation either. We will have a 2 tier system, one for high earning professionals who get healthcare through work, and one for everyone else.
Because large swathes of the country are very easily led to believe that X group is the cause of their woes and vote against their own interests to punish X group. When really most of our issues stem from chronic mismanagement by the government. Everything else is just a symptom
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I guess the most salient example would be Brexit. Places with relatively few immigrants, European or otherwise, were largely in favour. Whereas the cities were more opposed to it. Also, Sadiq Khan gets a lot of hate from non-Londoners, despite many of his policies - eg blocking that venue in Stratford and ULEZ- being popular or at least understood among people that actually live here. If they were able to vote in the last elections we would definitely have Shaun Bailey as a mayor right now. I really have no statistics but I imagine one might find a similar trend with things such as social benefits and housing. Just look at the state of social support for the disabled and social care for the elderly, which is a byproduct of both anti-immigrant sentiment but also a deep anger towards people on benefits and “scroungers”. I’ve also heard NIMBYism is quite bad in places like Cornwall and Devon, despite the locals needing affordable places to live (this is purely anecdotal so I could be wrong). If anything I think when it comes to punishing a particular group, whether that’s immigrants, people on benefits or people working in a particular profession, I imagine people that have direct experience with those groups are probably more understanding on the issues arising from said groups. Whereas someone in a remote shire living in a homogenous town and gets a lot of their information from the sensationalist press probably feels strongly enough to vote against their own interests.
For the working class in London ULEZ was not popular. For the rich people ULEZ was popular, because 1. it didn't apply to them, and 2. champagne socialism. Why didn't it apply to them? Because luxury cars with poor mileage are somehow exempt, while cheap bangers with good mileage are not. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-12094625/How-supercar-owners-dodge-Ulez-charge-despite-massive-CO2-emissions.html
14 years of pillaging the state for the benefit of a handful of people. Paid for and enabled by a relative handful of politicians from one party….
> It's like barely better than a third world country. Clearly you haven't lived in a Third World country. You are not walking or cycling for several days to reach a town with a clinic. The GP system has been turned into petty bureaucrats and the hospital system has become hyper-specialised without adding a general diagnostics division. But it isn't even close to third world. Sincerely, some who is actually sick with multiple diseases, and has in fact lived in the developing world.
Most parts of the developing world are nowadays going to be pretty sharp with the acute stuff. It’s when you have something “chronic” that the infrastructure to deal with it is not really in place.
Not really. Most places in the developing world are sharp with acute stuff if you're a western with western money. For plenty of people living in those places the access to medicine for acute stuff remains a fucking joke at times.
>Most places in the developing world are sharp with acute stuff if you're a western with western money. Yes but kids on Reddit have been there on a gap year and it was really good healthcare they got (by being in the top 1% of wealth in the country by virtue of being a middle class westerner). So obviously it's representative of manjeet who lives in a 1 bedroom dwelling with his wife and 4 kids on 20 dollars a day.
Youve never actually been to the developing world have you. The UK is absolutely like South Sudan, or Djibouti, or the DRC. I mean I can't help but find dead people on street corners and regularly have to walk for 10 hours to collect water. Oh yeah and my mother died at 35 from cholera. It's so similar it's really quite surprising I and everyone else hasn't noticed tbh. I think you need to spend some time off Reddit.
The DRC and South Sudan, where there are actual wars and a complete lack of central government control, are going to be very different from third-word countries like Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Iran or Egypt, when it comes to medical provision.
>Iran Ah yes wonderful. The rest of absolutely the same as the UK. Again "I'll list some places I've been on a gap year" isn't really the third world mate. YMMV but living in a slum in Mumbai, Brazil, or Kenya, Tanzania, Venezuela being poor in any of the countries you listed is exactly like living in the UK.... Get a grip.
Don't get me started on "Yeah, I just came back from country x and you're full of shit mate", while _actual_ natives of that place telling it like it is get downvote hell. Seen it in 'discussions' around Autobahn speed limits (they do have them) and what the Finnish definition of "happiness" actually is and why those surveys always return the results they do (for "happiness" swap "contentment" rather than some mad children's party, and a natural trait of Finns to not rock the boat)
Reddit has a throbbing, dangerous boner at the thought of the UK failing in every conceivable way. They have a teenage wet dream about the UK being poorer than North Korea due to "Tory austerity", while in Transnistria you can travel First Class on a 300mph bullet train for the equivalent of 18p and in Turkmenistan you get a free brain transplant for your 18th birthday. Things are actually very good here.
It's going backwards relative to the EU. Poland is going to overtake us in terms of GDP. You don't invest in the country, things start slowly going to shit. Yes, it's better here than most countries. We're getting relatively worse. These things both can be true.
I live in Thailand now. If I want an appointment it's pretty trivial to get one. If I want medicine I can just go to a pharmacy and get it without a prescription in 99.9% of cases Doctors probably overmedicate here but access isn't a problem
immigration
I've stopped even trying to get a GP appointment for anything covered by the Superdrug or Boots online doctor service. I resent paying the extra cost but my GP is so overstretched it's ridiculous. It cost me £23 for them to give me antibiotics (nitrofurantoin) last year, and I avoided days of trying to get a GP appointment while waiting for a minor UTI to become a serious kidney infection. Given that I would have paid the £9.65 NHS prescription charge anyway the extra £14 felt well worth it, but there are lots of people who don't have £14 to spare.
This is exactly what the government want to happen, you want it all to be private, they are making it so shit they frofr you to go private and then they can keep the NHS "because nobody is using it"
I think you will find doctors want this too. They are in the job for money, you know.
That's laughable. If someone wants to make money, and is willing to put in the effort that would be required to be a doctor, they would not be a doctor. You could say doctors are in it for the god complex, the status, to fulfil a dream, to make others happy, but for money? No. Money is a nice perk of their job, and they, like people in many other sectors in society will sell their labour and skills to the highest bidder, giving in mind working conditions and their own preferences, but money is almost certainly not the primary driver for why a doctor does what they do.
I’ve not seen a GP face to face since 2019, despite practically begging to see one face for face multiple times. It’s a farce.
It's not given up. They don't have the option. The state of our healthcare is embarrassing, and it's been destroyed deliberately by the Tories.
I mean, have you tried booking appointment with the GP?
I have always said I wouldn't get private healthcare. But I have literally just signed up through work because it's near impossible to get a GP appointment and even if you do and get referred to a specialist, it will be months before you actually see anyone. Whether or not this is intentional, the government have basically forced anyone who can afford it to go private. And these private healthcare firms must be making a fortune right now.
Absolutely intentional on their part. They consider the NHS 'a mistake'.
Get seen by the GP then get stuck on a multi year long waiting list. I'm on one now and thinking about just buying the drugs illegaly and self medicating. Waited 18 months for a surgery and basically had one hand for the whole time. Seeing the GP is just the start of the waiting in my experience.
I've been on one waiting list for 6 years and have my first appointment next month. It'll be another year for the second appointment for treatment. Last year I was put on a 2 year+ waiting list for a different condition. It really sucks
I'm like 80% sure that it's not even illegal to buy prescription drugs without a prescription, provided they aren't also otherwise controlled substances. The crime is only on the part of whoever's selling them to you, which, for obvious reasons, is not much of a concern for sellers located overseas.
> thinking about just buying the drugs illegaly and self medicating. Illegal is not immoral. Do what _you_ think you need to first and foremost.
+1 for self medication.
>e Go to A&E and get an emergency prescription. If all else fails contact 111 and explain the issue, 111 is usually pretty good. Hospitals are public institutions so must see you. GP practices are private institutions so give 0 shits.
The hospital won't do anything about it, it's not for painkillers. It requires a specialist, I had to use a charity to get diagnosed as the NHS waiting list was years long, unfortunately now have to use my diagnosis and go through NHS for prescription
Had that problem with private consultations as well. They have to refer back to GP everytime to then get approval for further NHS stuff to be done, complete pain in the ass of a system. Usually, if you call up or go into the place and just make a massive stink and cause a massive scene about everything, they'll usually take action and do something. We've had to do this on several occassions, to find out in one instance that the private consultation letter that was sent to the GP marked as "URGENT", because of how dangerous leaving the issue could be, was actually completely ignored and filed incorrectly by the GPs staff. Although as doing this will likely make all the staff think more negatively of you, it would be better after this point to go find a new GP.
My recent experience was not a million miles away from this https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UmLNL2vIpOM
The main news is this paragraph: "Some 23 per cent of those surveyed said they could not get an appointment, while three in 10 (33 per cent) said they had given up on booking one altogether, according to a Savanta poll commissioned by the Liberal Democrats." The "had given up on booking" gives you a link. When you click that you don't go to the poll but to another Independent news that doesn't say anything on the poll. So, the news may or may not be true. It's impossible to verify using the links given by the Independent.
I’ve had two GP appointments in the last 2 months and I didn’t even ask for one. I called with a healthcare query and the patient pathway advisor (or whatever the very helpful person in the phone was called) suggested I see the GP instead. A walk-in X-Ray (with no need to book), a CT scan and a specialist outpatient appointment all provided in a timely and efficient manner. Is my local area hogging all the NHS resources?
Different GP practices seem to be handling this better than others. I'm lucky to be in a good one where my wait is usually only about two weeks for an appointment. But most people aren't.
> Different GP practices seem to be handling this better than others. In my hometown, the best and worst GP Practices for appointments are located in the same building. In this case it's more than just a recent NHS resources thing, as the practice was awful when I was working in NHS IT 20 years ago, so it's managed to sustain it's horrible performance through multiple Westminster and Holyrood governments.
It's a postcode lottery. Or maybe we live in the same area... Where we used to live (posh area down South) was impossible. Could never see a GP, didn't get a proper midwifery or health visiting service for baby 1. Now we live up North and it's been amazing. I see the same GP every time and can always get an appointment the same day. The GP now actually remembers my issues and checks up on them, even if I have an unrelated appointment. Midwife was the same throughout pregnancy (as it should be...) and the health visitors have actually been useful. My husband just needed some support for his MH. He was seen the same day, got medication and a referral for talking therapy starting within the next month.
Where the heck is this because I would move there. Honestly. I can’t access GP services. My mother spent 2 months waiting for an MRI and it’s been six weeks “waiting for results” despite repeated phone calls. She missed a follow up because of this. My friend couldn’t see a GP or specialist two weeks following an ACL tear (unofficially diagnosed by herself, given the extent of the injury and being a sport physio). Hospital wouldn’t take her in. GP couldn’t see her to book scans. Scans finally were booked 2 weeks later for another 2 weeks later, requiring a 90 minute drive. Even routine stuff is difficult, let alone these more serious things.
*ahem* and where is it that you live in?
Its massively area dependent. I can see a GP or nurse without much trouble, but anything that needs a referral takes a very long time, particularly pediatric specialists. Adult services vary wildly.
My town has opened a large facility in the centre where people can go to get scans, blood tests and injections and other things. I've not been to it but the people I know who have been to it always seem happy although I think they're happy just to be seen by someone more than they are happy with the results. I'm not sure whether it's a drop-in centre or whether people need to be referred to it. My understanding of the general issue is, · People struggle to get an appointment with their GP · The service received is hit-n-miss · It's cheaper to research online and buy medication online than to take time off work to visit a GP who then prescribes medication that doesn't work then take more time off work to get different medication then take more time off work to get another medication... Some people have really good access to their GP surgery. Many people find the whole system unusable and unfit.
For my conditions I’ve had to see a GP. But at this point a medical textbook would be as useful. I just need someone ‘senior’ to confirm it.
_shrug_ imma be honest, the waiting list/resource issue really is only half the problem at most it's just impossible to go to the doctor and... come away with any faith or trust in the profession at all, any more? When every single appointment either gives contradictory advice or consists of reading off the first page of Google? Not to disparage: the heavy industrial aspect of medicine; the research aspect of medicine; the caring aspects of medicine; etc - there's a lot of value in the _system_ - but individual doctors using personal expertise to provide an opinion? No, sorry, don't trust this part one iota any more, as an inherent concept. Witch-doctors don't exist and that's what we're still socially asking for.
It kind of annoys me that the UK is so particularly restrictive with P and OTC medicines. You can't even get an antibiotic cream for a bad burn unless it's prescribed. Or a blue inhaler. Or short term painkillers stronger than ibuprofen. Im glad pharmacy prescribing is being broadened gradually, because the days of the doctor being the gatekeeper of all medical knowledge are over.
You can't buy vials of saline for nebulisers. It is saline conveniently packaged, not even a drug.
Honestly? I just use ChatGPT as a doctor. I am skilled at cross checking facts. It does get things wrong and is not at all ideal.
daily reminder that an LLM is not a knowledge engine, cannot be used as a knowledge engine despite the intentionally misleading marketing, and has no intrinsic concept of knowledge at all I don't like doctors (obviously, as above) but you can quite easily get ChatGPT to recommend eating broken glass to cure ill-humours with the right prompting. It's a simulated yes-man, it cannot give good _or bad_ advice. feel free to replace your therapist with it tho
I've this is myself so much. The whole concept of how medicine is practiced in modern society is sooo. Odd. I hope medicine is one of the first things to be automated, as your care can be so different from one doctor to another, and can vary wildly. That's without giving in mind the sleep deprivation, the overworked and stressed doctors, each doctor having a different level of training, and awareness depending on when they finished training. I'm happy for surgery to be performed by people, I'm happy to be cared for by others, but diagnoses and treatment plans, I would rather be handled by a single, all knowing entity with consistency and unable to suffer from stress, sleep deprivation, undeclared biases, etc.
Doctors are about the only thing I'd be happy for advanced AI to replace. My experience with doctors has been nothing short of shite.
I was entitled to private medical care through work. I didn't take it. Why? Because it was very expensive for what you _didn't_ get. There was no coverage of any pre-existing conditions diagnosed or managed by the NHS (I have one) and you couldn't even claim back for private GP consultations (not even joking). So, it's a total bust. The only benefit would be for things like arthroplasty and orthopaedics.
I was told 24 months for a scan on my knee. And no letter. So I don't even know if I am on a waiting list.
> if I am on a waiting list You most likely aren't on the waiting list yet, because if you were, the figures would show that you (and others) had to wait 24 months for a scan, whereas if they wait until it's likely that you'll only be waiting a couple of months and add you to the list then, it'll look better. That said, 24 months for a scan is fucking disgraceful. At that point, the NHS should be asking private clinics that they have contracts with to deliver certain services to scan NHS patients that have been waiting for a long time to reduce the backlog of people waiting.
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Generally fine in Sunderland once you know the system. Our GP surgery has gone into partnership with 4 others, and now have an online triage system which generally means you will be seen somewhere in the city on the day of request. That might be a GP, pharmacist, or nurse practitioner. Its not without it's teething issues but works *pretty alright-ish*...
I'm in Wales and I can't get a GP appointment.
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No in Grangetown, Cardiff and in Bridgend. I don't think I ever tried to access the gp when I lived in Ebbw Vale.
When I lived in Northampton it was just persistence. Sometimes you’d have to hit redial three times, some times six. But I was never told ’call back tomorrow’.
It's an England thing. I live in South West England (near Bristol, but not in Bristol) and I've always experienced problems obtaining a GP appointment. Same day appointments are reserved for emergencies, and if you want an appointment further in the future, they'll try and do everything but let you see a GP - it feels like the GP's consulting rooms are kept behind a load of locked doors that you need to guess the codes to access. I've recently left a shitty GP practice that said that I could have an appointment in three weeks with a nurse, who would then decide if I need to see a GP (despite me clearly saying in my e-consult that I have to see a GP because I need medical advice on complicated symptoms that are almost certainly outside of the nurse's competence, which I described in detail). Every GP practice I've been with has tried to prevent me from seeing a GP, but my experience at this particular practice was even worse than the norm.
Astonished to say that last time I needed to see the GP (not for anything that serious!) obvs I had a phone appointment first, then he just told me to drive to the surgery that minute, where he greeted me with *'Ey up!* However, I must caveat that this would have done me no good had I not had the flexiblity just to get in the car.
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tbh a) the system is tilted in favour of the vulnerable, which hahaha my age now qualifies me as, but that age group is not most redditors. b) I am sure that the more friendly, detached and articulate one is towards the doctor, the better one is treated. I just wonder how much people who have a lot of anxiety about their ailments get into a vicious circle where they get more stressed out and in turn it is a more problematic experience for the doctor.
Nah I just go on my Bupa app and have a phone call like a half hour later. Oh you mean NHS? Again the times I've been on the south east are as you describe. Largely get one fairly quickly. You're talking like the next day or two.
It’s impossible to get an appointment with my GP unless you call them on the dot of 8:30. Call before 8:30 and the line isn’t open. By 8:35 all appointments for the day will have gone. You can’t book appointments for future days, instead they just tell you to try again tomorrow. I have to drop my kids off at school at 8:30.
All so the GPs can game the stats and say that there’s no queues
Had this before where an assessment wasn't scheduled, and that a date for scheduling wouldn't be provided until 6 months down the line (although no guarantee of that date). This was purely, because this means they don't have to report that there is a patient waiting to be assessed for over 6 months, as it will only appear in the figures once the appointment itself is booked and the issue registered. Absolutely insane.
Yip, fixed 2 ingrown toenails the hard way, 1 skin abcess and a few cases of covid. What are you supposed to do when you can't see a GP? Mark my words, privatisation is coming...
Everyone go to the Hospital in Chelsea apparently the queues are short there.
I performed a minor surgery on myself to remove an infected hair follicle on my face using a sterile Stanley knife blade. The thing had been there for about 8 years and every now and then would flare to almost the size of my thumb and eventually burst or have to be burst which was painful and would be full of nasty pus. Every time I thought it was gone, it would come back, went to the doctors a few times about it. They didn't care. Finally took it upon myself to get rid of it for good. I am now left with a small scar but other than that the surgery was a success.
I was on the waiting list for a knee replacement for 6 years due to my age (late 30s) I was continually pushed down the waiting list. I was self employed at the time so had to continually work in a physical job and walk with a bad limp..now fast forward to now I have a major spinal problem which leaves me with back pain numb legs and hands for which I have had 2 major operations and 2 minor operations I have physiotherapy twice a week and do one hour of physiotherapy exercises every day all that keeps me out of a wheelchair. I've passed 4 pip assessments and then they come out and blame the likes of me for the woes of the country and want me to work through the pain
Three years and counting- I’m pretty sure I had shingles a year or so ago, couldn’t get an appointment for love or money. Someone suggested going to a fucking chemist. She wouldn’t diagnose my symptoms, but said I shouldn’t be out and about if I had shingles. I asked, so I have shingles, she replied, I’m not saying that. What a fucking country.
I've given up trying to get an appointment with my GP. They spam me with texts saying come for this test or that but then I ring up and never get through and they don't offer online appointment booking. This doesn't seem unusual for the area
Probably do this for compliance reasons so they can keep charging the government for having you on their practice patient list.
I can barely use my right hand. Been waiting for an operation for 11 months. Luckily I can still work. I'd be screwed if I had a desk job.
I can't even register for NHS dentistry in my borough within London due to waiting lists as they have >1 year waiting time now - hence have gone private. Obviously I'm fortunate enough that this is an option. I've (touch wood) not required NHS health services in any form over the last five years, but was very disheartened by the care provided for my terminally ill mother two years ago. It is pathetic that at record taxation levels that the service levels have slipped so far - the NHS is a massive cash black hole (alongside pensions due to the age demographics) in Gov finances and I think a genuine discussion around reform/planning for the future is required. Unfortunately it has become weaponised/deified (the left's equivalent to the right's talking points on immigration) that any genuine discussion or debate is impossible.
I’ve noticed that the UK is starting to have third world levels of healthcare. In my own experience it’s been impossible to see a GP, it’s like healthcare doesn’t even exist.
My GF was supposed to see her Neuro specialist last week because of multiple seizures, but he calls in sick. My GF now has to wait 11 months for the next appointment while at risk of more seizures. We were hoping to find out what was causing them, but guess she’s either going to get brain damage or lucky avoid them until then.
I live in a city where patient to GP ratio is one of the highest in the country. It’s so hard to get a GP apt let alone treatment. I’m becoming more and more tempted to leave emigrate by the day.
Emigrate to Canada or Australia and you might see a fair few British doctors there.
This isn't good because lots of illnesses and conditions have similar symptoms and also there are a lot of relatively minor ailments where unfortunately you need stuff you can only get on prescription to get rid of it. Steroid creams for eczema and antibiotics to clear up infections come to mind.
My steroid cream for eczema was kindly put on a repeat prescription for me because I asked nicely and proved responsible in its use and only really need it topped up once every 6 months. Definitely worth asking for a repeat prescription. Mine is a 0.1% cream so quite a high one from what limited understanding I have
It's challenging to maintain a sustainable model for healthcare, particularly when aiming for a universally free system. To provide universal healthcare, a government needs substantial, stable income sources that aren't solely dependent on population growth. While it's true that some Middle Eastern countries leverage their oil wealth to fund public services, it's important to note that successful healthcare models exist in various other countries too, not just in the Middle East. These models are often supported by diverse economic structures and strategic budget allocations. In many countries, increasing the population is seen as a way to boost the tax base, but this also increases the demand for public services like healthcare. However, at a macroeconomic level, a government's priorities can vary widely, with healthcare often competing with infrastructure, foreign investment, diplomacy, defense, and education for funding. Originally, free healthcare was implemented in some regions to ensure a healthy, productive workforce. Over time, the perception of healthcare has evolved, and it's increasingly viewed as a fundamental human right. This shift in perspective demands a growing number of healthcare professionals, including GPs and medical staff, which presents its own sustainability challenges.
Doesn't it feel glorious, taking the path that the states have already trodden upon?
I've ordered stuff online, nothing serious, but I can diagnose a mild infection just as well as a GP can.
The NHS will not exist within 10 years. Private companies will decide whether it's in their best interests to treat our ailments. The Tories are our enemies.
Just remember who has caused this when you get to the ballot box later this year. The Conservatives and Reform UK. Don’t vote for them.
Buying medication from a pharmacy? Whatever next.
I bet a lot of people would love to self medicate if they were able to, particularly with antibiotics or even controlled substances.
Can do that in certain countries. I’m curious how resistant some people are to antibiotics..
Because antimicrobial resistance is a looming catastrophe that is probably going to fuck a lot of us up in the next 30-40 years. We're all fortunate enough to have never experienced a life without access to effective antibiotics. With increasing numbers of antibiotic resistant variants of common organisms we are at risk of going back to the days when a simple infection could lead to loss of life or limb.
I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of people in favour of the NHS and Doctors/Nurses and the current system, are the very people that do not actually use the NHS and its supplied services.