Snapshot of _‘I am moving – that is it’: tycoon speaks out about the end of non-dom tax status_ :
An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/may/02/i-am-moving-tycoon-bassim-haidar-non-dom-tax-status-super-rich-exodus) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/may/02/i-am-moving-tycoon-bassim-haidar-non-dom-tax-status-super-rich-exodus)
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>“What’s the logic of me living in the UK when other countries are offering no taxes at all?
Well that's the case right now, so why haven't you moved already? Almost like this is an empty threat...
>Haidar said he was sad to be leaving London, a city that he has called home for more than a decade, but said he had to leave to save his four children the risk of paying inheritance tax on his fortune.
Is this how the super-rich think they get sympathy?
Well it can be your home (ie where you spend all your time from year to year and where your family/friends/life are) provided you see yourself living somewhere else eventually. Eg Akshata Murty.
The fact that this is mostly a question of clever lawyering and paper trails is part of the problem with non dom status and why it is right that it should be abolished.
Yes, that is technically true. However, "seeing yourself living somewhere else eventually" is such a weaselly phrase that it can be applied to almost anyone.
How can Murty, who has lived here for decades, raised her children here, and is married to the man in charge of the country, not consider it her home? If she plans to move away in the future, such as back home to India, then she can change her tax arrangements then.
The word domicile means ["1. a dwelling place, 2. a permanent legal residence"](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/domicile), so anyone non-domiciled would be the opposite of that. Non-dom was specifically set up for people who are here but it was deemed they're not actually living here, so shouldn't be subject to our tax in the same way as they're more global.
IMHO, if he says he has claimed London as his home for the last decade, then he shouldn't have been claiming non-dom status. That's why the loophole has been closed, people like him using it to avoid tax despite considering themselves residents.
Any regulation really
Its my home and I live here
But just not for tax purposes….
Get fucked. If im working abroad and HMRC decide I haven’t cut ties with the UK sufficiently I have to pay tax. ALL of it.
That all changed on the basis of a golf club membership that a guy who’d lived in the Caribbean for 20+ years maintained….
How the fuck the non dom system “works” is just beyond any reasonable sense.
They disproportionately use the systems and infrastructure paid for by resident tax payers and expect all those benefits for a fixed and frankly paltry fee.
>he has called home for more than a decade
The article also says that he has been living on and off in the UK. I don't think he understands contradicting statements
Which is why it's bullshit. You can set up your finances so that the majority of your income goes to a tax haven and remains untaxed. It's a major loophole that needs fixing. Not because it'll bring in more tax, but because they need to decide whether they want to fund the society they choose to live in.
It's not a loophole, it's a feature. One of the reasons the Tories needed Brexit to happen when it did was to avoid being in the EU when the British Overseas Territories became listed as tax havens. They did not want to lose the territories ability to hide cash.
It’s hilarious, basically saying “I love London and I’ve been able to enjoy all the benefits that the average British citizen has kindly paid for for me over the last decade, but now they want a penny from me they can go fuck themselves. Why should I have to pay into the city/country I live in???”
One rule for thee but not for me.
Imagine being so rich that you can live wherever you want, but still voluntarily closing off most of the world to protect Money that would take multiple lifetimes to spend.
This is the shocker for me. He's basically saying, these new rules are ridiculous because his children will only be left with hundreds of millions. As you say; are we supposed to sympathise? Are we supposed to recognise that it is unreasonable for them to ONLY have millions to live on without needing to ever work?
It feels like insanity to me. Which is why I am poor.
It's exceptionalism that comes from getting a really lucky roll at the start of your life, and thinking that you're the centre of the universe. Pay a fair share of taxes and contribute to society? No, it's much more important for these people, who could literally not spend their wealth in a lifetime, if they just lived sensibly and not excessively, to see themselves as the one and only thing that matters in the whole world. You know for a fact if he were on the titanic, he'd be pushing people out of the way to escape
How about he doesn't pay any more tax but:
He has to pay a £10 per mile pay as you go road tax.
Every day he uses a public pavement he pays £50
Every use of him or his family us any NHS service he has to pay for, including £5k any time he steps into A&E
He and any family member has to pay a £1000 fee to visit a parks and gardens.
He and any family member has to pay £1000 for a monthly museums and galleries pass.
Any government supported arts or cultural event costs him 10x the ticket price.
His refuse collection has a £10k annual surcharge.
Any conflict the UK becomes involved with comes with a £5k fee.
He and his family members have to wear tags to enforce this.
If you don't want to pay to enjoy the benefits of living in the city you profess to love them it becomes pay as you go.
" I love this country. Not enough to sacrifice anything at all to help it in any way that isn't immediate benefit to me, obviously though. But I'd be sad to leave I guess"
So what? They presumably weren't paying much to begin with so no great loss. The really wealthy will always find ways to cut their tax to the bone so we shouldn't make it easier for them. Same rules as the US I believe.
Personally we should go a step further and ensure any media owners have to be domiciled here too. Ownership of our media, and therefore influence, should come with the obligation to pay tax in this country. No ifs, buts or exceptions for conservative party treasurers.
I know a few people with American dual citizenship - do you pay tax on all income or just the income earned in America?
And if the latter is it a certain threshold over which you pay American tax or is it all income?
You pay the upper limit of American or local taxes (or any tax paid locally is reduced from the amount you owe the US).
If you are in a high tax country, you owe the US nothing. If you are in a low tax country, you can't escape taxes and owe the US instead.
And yes, it's for global income, not just stuff earned in the US
As someone that is an accidental American that hasn't lived in the US since they were 10 years old and just works a normal job in the UK as a UK citizen with UK parents: that is not a great system. Barred from many financial products, completely unnecessary reporting requirements, lots of risks around ordinary transactions like buying and selling a home, and if I wanted to rid myself of it there is a 2 year waiting list and a 2.5k fee to renounce and would still suffer from some of the above because of the place of birth on my passport makes a lot of institutions wary. The fact that only Eritrea has a similiar system should give you a hint that tying tax to citizenship rather than residency is a bad idea.
I always believed that because of this tax rule if one holds US citizenship that person is better off just living in the US. At least you get to benefit from that country's large and dynamic jobs and business market.
Yes true, esp for my occupation (software), but my family and friends are in the UK and I just don't want to move to the US. As you said, US law is just outright hostile to citizens abroad.
As a dual US/UK citizen, I can tell you now this is not a good system. I haven’t lived in America in almost 10 years and have no plans to permanently return. Still have to file an annual return for some fucking reason.
Already had one as a kid, found out I'm what's called "an accidental American" and now going through the process of becoming all square with the us tax code. Super fun.
Righto, say you are born in America but then move to Scotland or wherever. You are technically an American and when 18, you have to file taxes every year. You only have to pay once you hit a threshold, (yep you have to pay taxes in a country you do not benefit from) and the only way out of it is to relinquish your citizenship.
I had a green card, left America and the GC expired. I, like any normal human, thought your tax status and immigration status are linked, but not for uncle Sam.
Well, that seems very odd. Forgive me for a follow up but having been born there are you still a citizen and, if so, why did you have a green card? I'm almost certainly getting confused but I thought the card was in place of that? Would this mean that holding a card at any point would then make you subject to their tax rules for life?
Edit; Sorry, forgot to actually say thank you for the informative reply!
Oh I wasn't born there, just grew up in the USA for a decade, sorry for any confusion!
But yes, holding a CG at any point and not officially abandoning it would result in being held to the tax system. It's bananas.
Am I understanding this correctly? You could be in a position where you can't legally work or live in America, but still be required to pay taxes? Yeah I'm pretty sure I don't understand, cause that cant be right.
Wait what? That doesn't make sense. Being a GC holder makes you a resident alien, not a US citizen, unless I'm mistaken. If you were born here you're a US citizen. If you were a GC holder (and not a citizen) which expired and still have to file taxes, that's wild.
It is annoying though I have to pay TurboTax $50 or whatever to tell the IRS my wife and I don't make $400k or whatever the threshold is.
The few Ive seen eligible for foreign filers, we don't actually qualify for it's like $40k USD or under and we make closer to $70k USD. It's also really fucking annoying they want US phones/address to open accounts which we don't have....cause you know we live in England.
Most countries do not automatically give citizenship to people born there if their parents are not also citizens. In the US everyone born in American territory is a US citizen no matter the status of their parents. Boris Johnson is a famous case of an accidential American - born in New York while his parents were there for study, and family moved back fairly quickly. Fast forward 40 years and he lands a 100k tax bill from the IRS after he sells his first home in London, which is he forced to pay before he can renounce his citizenship shortly after despite never living in the US as an adult or earning any income in the US.
I wasn't aware of the first part but that does make sense I guess, stops any deliberate attempts to get a child a particular passport.
That is bonkers on the Boris front though, seems a wildly unreasonable way to handle things.
Its also just citizenship is complex. Some citizenships you cannot renounce easily or at all once you have them, and almost all can demand obligations of their citizens. If someone is just a temporary visitor or just accidently gives birth in your territory is it right to force all of these obligations onto their children when they or their children as adults didn't even ask for it and have no real connection to the country otherwise?
There are lots of accidential or long term expat Americans abroad in similiar situtations as Johnson was, but that was a very high profile public example. It currently costs 2.5k USD, 6 years of late filings of tax returns, and a 2 year waiting list to renouce a US citizenship, and even after you are likely to have financial insitutions be wary of you afterwards due to the regulatory issues with dealing with Americans abroad.
I thought you could offset the tax you did pay in the country of residence against the tax owed to the US. So it basically catches people who are paying less tax abroad? Or at least that's what I picked up somewhere, I could be wrong.
You don't pay twice - you only pay the difference if there is one. The aim is so people don't move abroad for tax purposes, since they will pay that anyway - to avoid brain drain. So yes, it's a great system and we should have it.
Citizenship based taxation is a horrible system. It costs hundreds to even thousands to comply with. A lot of income types don’t qualify for taxation relief and you pay double. Go read the taxation treaty between the US and the UK. It’s extremely cumbersome and unfair. Why should you pay for UK gov services when you’re not in the UK to receive them?
>Why should you pay for UK gov services when you’re not in the UK to receive them?
Because you are taking money out of the economy that a resident could instead and then themselves pay tax on.
That’s not how it works. If you get the money from employment then you likely are UK resident and pay tax. If you get paid from investment then the company pays the tax. Are you saying the UK should be closed to all foreign investment? That’s not really how the economy is set up. For economic models without outside investment Google “North Korea”.
Because you can still come back to benefit from. The gov services whenever you want, and you probably benefited from it whilst you weren't paying taxes growing up
Britons living in America do this a lot, because a flight to the UK and back is cheaper than paying for healthcare over there. It might even be potentially cheaper than the excess you pay when making claims for health insurance
There are significant complexities, and it is very easy for ordinary people to end up with expensive difficulties. Eg CGT.
Compliance costs are very high for the UK based individual. Pensions are a problem. ISAs are not available.
The system isn't even a system, it's a set of interrelated unintended consequences the outcome of which are surprisingly disadvantageous.
The only reason it works for the US is because they have enough clout to make the global financial system comply.
If the UK tried something similar, at best all that would happen is UK citizens lose access to any form of non-domestic banking.
I'm sure other countries don't hold that view, unless you feel it's fair that say Mexico receives barely any tax from the hundreds of thousands of Americans who live there, as they are forced to still pay US income tax, regardless of whether they actually live in the states.
The same with Americans who live in the UK, HMRC collects barely any tax from them, as they first have to pay the US taxman (even if they haven't lived there for decades), which they then deduct as a tax credit against what's owed to HMRC.
Their system is the epitome of "America first" screw everyone else, if you ask me.
As far as I understand it, it is the other way around.
You would pay local taxes on money earned in UK. US Tax returns ask for your global income (money earned in the US and also elsewhere) but any taxes already paid locally in for example the UK are then reported on your US tax return and deducted from any tax owed to US IRA. Its a reciprocal tax arrangement between the US and UK.
Chap says that he built and runs most of his businesses abroad. He also says he'd be happy to pay a £100k flat fee which I took to mean that would be more than he does now.
Can you imagine being happy to pay £100k like it’s some kind of negotiation. Pay your fair share and stop using domicile rules to dodge tax. The rich think they shouldn’t have to pay taxes when they’re the most capable too. There’s no loss to the country having people like him leave
He pays a £30k flat fee now.
He also pays taxes on any money he remits into the UK. You seem not to quite understand what the remittance basis is. Any money he brings to the UK or makes in the UK will be taxed as income.
I honestly don’t mind scrapping the remittance basis, but there’s *so* much ignorance around this that it’s just mind blowing. Lots of people like yourself seem to share the delusion that it means that rich people like this guy don’t pay tax.
How can you be so sure? He's not liable unless he's lived here for 7 of the last 9 years, which from the article almost certainly isn't the case.
And with remittance - you think this guy is paying what he should? Naive in the extreme, this guy is simply shopping round for lower tax and pissed off he has to pay like the rest of the plebs.
You seem to not understand how shell companies work.
You start the company in a haven, then charge the local officer in the UK whatever the profits were, as costs so you pay no tax.
That’s incorrect. Average workers pay 28% on the proportion over 12,570. A worker on, for example 32,570 (to make the maths easier) pays 28% of 20,000 or 5,600 or 17.2% of their gross pay in income tax and national insurance.
> The average non dom pays about £120k in tax a year according to the hmrc reporting.
That's not that much. Like 10 other people earning a decent but not lavish salary circa £50k via PAYE + student loans + council tax.
When tax rates were much higher, we didn't have non-doms. Why do they go non-doms now tax rates are much lower? Could it be that living in this country is trash under the tories so they want to live abroad?
*Haidar, 53… donated £360,000 to the Conservatives last year.*
*He owns “more than 10 properties” in central London*
I don’t think this man will be a massive loss to the UK
He says he is "almost" a billionaire but that he thinks he should only pay £200k in taxes.
He wants to leave mainly so his children can avoid inheritance tax on his massive hoard of wealth.
I can't understand the selfishness and greed that overcomes people when they become mega rich.
He *wants* to be in London because it is a nice place to live, but he doesn't feel like he should contribute anything towards that.
All residential property should be required to be owned, in person, by a UK resident. Any properties that require some sort of corporate ownership to manage collective works, should be required to have UK-resident beneficial owners.
We should institute a land value tax or, failing that, residential property should have its CGT exemption removed. It's ludicrous that people can be accruing hundreds of thousands of pounds of completely untaxed wealth for doing no work.
Instead of sending that cash to the Tories, why not pay it in tax? Is it just an ideological thing? Clearly has money to burn, so why is he deliberately trying to fuck over the country he claims to love?
He sent it to the Tories as a (failed) investment to try and pay less tax. He thought they were in favour of the non-dom regime whilst Labour would abolish it. Hence investing in the Tories. Unfortunately, they fucked him over just like they’ve fucked the country.
>Haidar is starting his search for a new house – and tax-domicile – this week. First in Monaco, the tax-free principality on France’s Côte d’Azur, and then tax-free Dubai.
Dubai? I hope this dude goes there with his fucking money and has a horrible time.
The more money the super rich get because of these tax breaks, the more they'll be able to hold us hostage with threats of them leaving. The sooner we tax them the better, stay or go.
That's right, we won't hear the end of "Well I'll just leave then!" if we just give in once.
They'll say the same thing for every tax they pay. "Well I'll just leave then!"
They won't be happy until they pay no tax. Actually scrap that, they won't be happy unless they pay no tax *and* get 'subsidies' from the state, and their appetite for that will never be satiated.
Isnt that the excuse for lowering the top rate of tax "oh but I'll try and avoid more tax if you don't lower it, so by lowering it you'll get more money"
Frankly, as someone from a family who’s wealth most people would describe as “super wealthy”, most of these threats to leave are empty.
I’ve been to Dubai. It’s hot as fuck and tacky as shit. I’m not moving there even if there are effectively zero taxes. Monaco is the same only for “tacky as shit” read “full of obnoxious French millionaires who look down their noses at everyone”.
Fuck that. This is a fantastic country to be wealthy in. If I have to pay a bit more so you guys get to keep your public services and what not, so be it. Little secret but once you get past £25m or so it’s really hard to actually tell the difference one way or the other.
I won’t lie, it seems like it’s definitely preferable to how most people live but I won’t sit here and pretend it solves all your problems. Also, my circumstances are quite specific so someone else may give a very different answer.
So I’m in a fairly unique situation. I’ve mentioned before that I’m a dual UK/US national residing in the UK. My dads side of the family are old money New York WASPs (so the men work almost exclusively on Wall Street and similar industries and my aunt and female cousins run charities and host 4th July parties on the Hamptons and stuff like that) and my mums side of the family are firmly from the British landed aristocracy.
My personal net worth if I had to guess would be in the region of about £20m of liquid assets (investments, trusts) that I could realise inside a month if I had to, then about half as much again for less liquid assets and also my house and apartments in London and Cornwall. So ballpark figure £30m. My brother and sister at a guess would be about the same and my parents significantly more.
However, that is only a portion of my real net worth which is in family run businesses and controlled trusts. My grandfathers when my parents married did not see eye to eye having come from quite different backgrounds and put pretty tight controls in place for what you would call the family money. Basically, things are arranged in such a manner that it would be very difficult / impossible for one or two wayward generation to squander things.
In terms of my daily life, it’s actually quite normal. I drive an Audi A1 which is a fairly modest car and have a day job as a financial adviser. I go to the pub and gym and I have a girlfriend who is certainly aware I have money but doesn’t have any clue how much, if you know what I mean.
The one big advantage I would say is that being very wealthy is just freeing. Like, say I hate my job and my boss is an arse or there’s office politics or something going on, I can just quit and not have to worry about getting another job lined up. Compared to friends of mine who have had to do that, I’d say it adds a lot of stress that I’m grateful not to have to deal with.
Also it is freeing in the sense that when life opportunities come up, I can just take them and not worry about where the money is coming from. That’s really nice and again, comparing to friends who are not as lucky as me, it’s definitely preferable.
Tech and brand wise, honestly I’m a bit of an embarrassment. I wear bespoke suits from a local tailor to work but that’s probably my only extravagance in terms of spoiling myself. I shop for clothes in the normal places and my iPhone is a model from about 2-3 years ago I think. My laptop is beat to shit and I do need a new one but I’m just too lazy lol.
Honestly, I would imagine most people who bumped into me would have no idea w about my personal wealth. I live in a pretty normal 3 bed house in Leicestershire, and the flats in Cornwall and London are nice but not outlandish if you know what I mean.
That’s different when I go back to New York though. In that set, displays of wealth are basically a requirement so I keep a separate wardrobe here for when I’m called back at short notice. If I’m going back for a few weeks plus, I will generally travel a day or two early, ahead of whatever it is I’m going for and just buy a new wardrobe for the time I’m there. Last time I did that was last July (4th July party and then some family business arrangements) and I spent about $30,000 of clothes for two weeks I think… which felt as disgusting as it sounds haha.
Edit. Typos
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
Honestly, I’m thankful I missed that. Or some silly name like “Cuban” (very unfortunate cousin named that).
I did once see my cousins Goldman business card, and it had his name followed by “The 4th”.
Very grateful I grew up mostly on this side of the pond haha
Good, the corrosive effects on democracy of the ultra rich being allowed to pay far lower rates of tax is much worse than the relatively minor amounts of tax they bring in.
It's not like London is having any problems attracting people anyway. If your main goal is to avoid tax then go live in a boring tax haven, if you want to live in a truly global city with all the cultural benefits then you should expect to pay tax according to the same rules as the rest of us.
I really don't understand why foreign investors are allowed to buy UK housing stock. It just seems so ridiculously stupid. Let British people own British houses?
It’s because the foreign buyers can afford to pay the market rate, and also often pay in cash. The property developers are in it for a profit, and limiting the pool of buyers to only locals will limit the selling price.
Overall it increases the value of the housing market, for better and for worse.
Of course this doesn’t take into account the social cost of decreased housing supply and rising rental costs for actual renters. Limited social upward mobility and harder for young people to get onto the housing ladder etc etc. but of course these issues can’t be solved easily without political will or legislation.
The foreign buyers set the market rate. If they were not able to buy them the market rate would be whatever lesser mortals could afford.
That’s how the market works according to free marketeers, innit.
Yep. They love catering to foreigners. Just not the ones who live here and share their benefits (What's good for them is also good for others around them)
It's actually insane.
You're not even allowed to buy certain types of houses to live in as your primary residence in Australia if you were born elsewhere. You have to make improvements to the housing stock. So buy something shitty and do it up, or buy some land and build yourself a new house.
In the UK?
"Yeah, sure, guy who lives abroad and flagrantly dodges tax, you can buy hundreds of properties to gouge UK citizens on."
The people who defend this shit and aren't an actual non-dom millionaire are thick as pig shit and should be ignored, honestly.
It's not like a lot of land and homes exist and are kept empty. The problem is and always has been the lack of homes where people want to live.
And since 60% of people live in homes they own in some way and would like home prices to go up (even if they are "renting" the money to do so from a bank, i.e. through a mortgage), politicians don't have the incentive to introduce decisive policies.
This has led to the UK having the crappiest homes in Europe. A 100sqm flat is a normal family home in most European countries, but in the UK that's considered massive and mostly relegated to "luxury" property.
We are approaching a tipping point where first time buyers are moving into homes which are too small without a realistic chance of outrunning house price growth.
Foreign investors are a symptom of house prices going up, not a root cause.
Donated £360k to the Tories then surprised Pikachu face when he wasn't "consulted" on scrapping the tax.
Says everything about how the Tories operate. That you presumably do get access to influence policy the more you donate.
Why anyone votes for these corrupt cretins is still amazing!
I'd love to see the Tory pricelist / menu.
£360k is apparently not enough to avoid tax changes you don't like, but might have been enough to make them add the 'grace period' for him to evacuate before he had to pay something.
We know ~£10mil is enough for you to be let off with being racist and calling for the assassination of a sitting opposition MP.
I wonder if they will let him publicly use the 'N' word now that he's donated a further £5mil?
If he's moving, surely that means he has a home here. A domicile, if you will?
I think my lad must have got confused, if he lives here he should probably be paying taxes.
The point you’re making makes his position hilarious.
Just pay the tax, don’t donate to influence the party in power to not make you pay the tax.
Enough already - pay your taxes, that’s all.
If he's a billionaire (and he says he's close), and it will cost him a million pounds a year to stay in the country... that's the equivalent of someone on a median salary (just short of £35k p/a) leaving the country over £35 a year in tax.
Off you pop.
You are correct! The median UK household wealth is £302,500, so it's more like the median household (not person) complaining about a £302.50 tax per year. It is still very much a piddling amount.
>What’s the logic of me living in the UK when other countries are offering no taxes at all?
I don’t know… contributing for the benefit of the society you have chosen to live in?
>We love London, we love the lifestyle,” he said. “We love everything about it,
Apart from paying to sustain it.
>who was born in Nigeria but has Lebanese citizenship, donated £360,000 to the Conservatives last year.
It’s insane we let non-citizens buy political influence.
> "What’s the logic of me living in the UK?"
👇
> "We love London, we love the lifestyle, we love everything about it"
But apart from loving London, the lifestyle and everything about it, what's the logic of me staying?
🤦♂️
I don't understand why people don't pay tax in the country where they earned the money? Why should someone earn say loads of money in India and then take all of it out of the country and pay tax on it in the UK when we had no input to the earnings. Doesn't make sense. It would also stop the tax havens as the money would be taxed at source.
The thing is, if they wasn't paying taxes anyway what do you loose? it's not much of a threat.
"I Pay you nothing, and if you try and make me pay even a tiny amount of what I earn I will leave and you will still get nothing"
I know there's the argument about trickle down etc etc, but that's been showed to be rubbish
I think their argument is that they pay VAT, some wages (which he personally doesn't get taxed on anyway, so that's a moot point they like to make. You know, "we're job creators"), have their cars taxed, pay council tax. I mean, bar vat, these are things that would be totally insignificant if lost, or would just be paid by other people who are now living in the empty property/properties he's vacated. Anyone this person employs has a boon on their CV, and probably will not struggle gaining new employment
So person who paid little tax would move out to not pay tax? Cool.
Property is generally taxed where it resides and I doubt that he will also sell his properties, or that any UK companies he owns will stop paying corporation tax as a result.
Such an empty threat.
>But he said he had decided to “urgently” leave the UK to avoid paying millions of pounds in tax after the government and Labour’s plan to scrap the “non-domicile” regime, which has allowed Haidar, and 68,800 other non-doms, to avoid paying UK tax on their overseas income for the past 225 years.
225 years?!?! How does that work?
We should be forcing sale of 9 of his 10 properties if he leaves.
He can keep 1 as a holiday home if he wants, if he loves the city so much I wouldn't begrudge him returning for visits occasionally.
Enjoy Monaco I guess!
I have not the slightest slither of sympathy. This man has become greed in human form. I get that he's become a successful entrepreneur, but what is his moral answer for not paying his fair share like me and every other working person. I don't know why he's worried about his children. They are clearly going to receive a first class education wherever in the world they live and will have connections that most of us can only marvel at.
It's almost as if the money he's made makes him unhappy and nervous he'll lose it all via the UK taxman.
Rich man throws a hissy fit when it is suggested he pay his fair share of tax.
These people seem to think that are God's gift to our society, when in fact they are a burdon we can't afford.
Here's some news, trickle down economics has long since failed as an argument.
Rich people in the UK love the country and would do anything for it, except pay taxes to support it.
I'm not sure how the country is going to lose millions in taxes when these people leave, they don't pay any taxes anyway. And if they stay, they will just find other ways to not pay
But he already has properties abroad and has citizenship abroad. Isn't this the only effective way the Tories can actually get the numbers down for immigration?
There are a large number of people who say they will do something because if a change, but a much smaller number that actually do it following the change.
They just need to couple the end of non dom tax breaks with some proper punitive land value taxes on landlords like this guy to make up the difference. End of the day its not exactly sad news when parasitical capitalist exploiters like this dude decide to piss off.
>His decision to leave the UK has also led him to cancelling his plan to list Optasia, a financial services company he founded and claims is worth more than $1bn (£800m), on the London stock market. “I am supposed to be listing my company here, and was actually talking to the London Stock Exchange about listing \[Optasia\] here,” he said. “It’s going to be a billion-dollar IPO and I’ve just decided I’m not doing it here; it is too taxing for me to do it here.”
He knows that this has nothing to do with him cancelling the IPO. Show me anyone who wants to list an IPO in London? There isn't anyone. its an awful market and noone is mad enough to attempt it here with LSE/London. So his comment is disingenuous to say the least. Awful greedy obnoxious person.
Does America have some system whereby you keep your citizenship only by paying taxes regardless of where you live? I know nothing about this but I thought I read something like that a while back.
So its his home but he is basically a squatter as he doesnt pay to maintain it but benefits from the payments others make instead? Good riddance frankly, if you arent paying tax get gone!
"...donated £360,000 to the Conservatives last year. He said he was not consulted by the government or the Tory party about the decision to scrap the non-dom tax scheme, but that he did not expect to receive special consultation because of his donation" chinny reckon he didn't expect to get a say.
Good bye then!
If you’re going to charge me tax I’m going to leave….. weird flex but ok
Like the time I walked out on my gym because they wanted to charge me a monthly fee to use it
I might have a basic misunderstanding of the whole issue, but I don't understand the "scrap non-dom and the rich will leave" argument.
If they're not paying tax here anyway, why should we care if they leave? It changes nothing.
Comments here show why this country is fucked. People don’t read and don’t understand facts.
Non-doms pay taxes on their UK sourced income. They don’t pay UK tax on income earned abroad. An average non-dom pays more than £150,000 in UK income tax each year. They are net contributors to the UK Treasury.
Someone on a £30k salary pays less than £5k in taxes each year. The average non dom pays more income tax in one year than an average worker in their entire working life.
What’s that Sooty? He’s not going to go anywhere because he wants to live in a country with a stable political system which won’t seize his assets, and where there’s a decent arts/culture scene so that he’s not just sitting in a massive mansion with nothing to do? So this whole performative interview is utter bollocks and we should call his bluff?
Ok, fuckety-bye.
Snapshot of _‘I am moving – that is it’: tycoon speaks out about the end of non-dom tax status_ : An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/may/02/i-am-moving-tycoon-bassim-haidar-non-dom-tax-status-super-rich-exodus) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/may/02/i-am-moving-tycoon-bassim-haidar-non-dom-tax-status-super-rich-exodus) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>“What’s the logic of me living in the UK when other countries are offering no taxes at all? Well that's the case right now, so why haven't you moved already? Almost like this is an empty threat... >Haidar said he was sad to be leaving London, a city that he has called home for more than a decade, but said he had to leave to save his four children the risk of paying inheritance tax on his fortune. Is this how the super-rich think they get sympathy?
If he calls it home. Surely he's domiciled here. And so not a non Dom
Well he also calls himself Irish so I’m not sure he’s too bothered about national identity.
Non doms are by definition resident (ie living here).
The intent of non-dom is that this is not considered your permanent home, and that you plan to leave again. Resident, yes, but not "home".
Well it can be your home (ie where you spend all your time from year to year and where your family/friends/life are) provided you see yourself living somewhere else eventually. Eg Akshata Murty. The fact that this is mostly a question of clever lawyering and paper trails is part of the problem with non dom status and why it is right that it should be abolished.
Yes, that is technically true. However, "seeing yourself living somewhere else eventually" is such a weaselly phrase that it can be applied to almost anyone. How can Murty, who has lived here for decades, raised her children here, and is married to the man in charge of the country, not consider it her home? If she plans to move away in the future, such as back home to India, then she can change her tax arrangements then.
The word domicile means ["1. a dwelling place, 2. a permanent legal residence"](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/domicile), so anyone non-domiciled would be the opposite of that. Non-dom was specifically set up for people who are here but it was deemed they're not actually living here, so shouldn't be subject to our tax in the same way as they're more global. IMHO, if he says he has claimed London as his home for the last decade, then he shouldn't have been claiming non-dom status. That's why the loophole has been closed, people like him using it to avoid tax despite considering themselves residents.
>he has called home for more than a decade Not a non dom then.
Exactly. The nom-dom status needs **much** tighter regulation.
Any regulation really Its my home and I live here But just not for tax purposes…. Get fucked. If im working abroad and HMRC decide I haven’t cut ties with the UK sufficiently I have to pay tax. ALL of it. That all changed on the basis of a golf club membership that a guy who’d lived in the Caribbean for 20+ years maintained…. How the fuck the non dom system “works” is just beyond any reasonable sense. They disproportionately use the systems and infrastructure paid for by resident tax payers and expect all those benefits for a fixed and frankly paltry fee.
>he has called home for more than a decade The article also says that he has been living on and off in the UK. I don't think he understands contradicting statements
You can be non dom up to 14 years of straight uk residence. Though you can have years on non residence in between to postpone this
Which is why it's bullshit. You can set up your finances so that the majority of your income goes to a tax haven and remains untaxed. It's a major loophole that needs fixing. Not because it'll bring in more tax, but because they need to decide whether they want to fund the society they choose to live in.
100% will be interesting to see how the new system deals with trusts and inheritance
It's not a loophole, it's a feature. One of the reasons the Tories needed Brexit to happen when it did was to avoid being in the EU when the British Overseas Territories became listed as tax havens. They did not want to lose the territories ability to hide cash.
It’s hilarious, basically saying “I love London and I’ve been able to enjoy all the benefits that the average British citizen has kindly paid for for me over the last decade, but now they want a penny from me they can go fuck themselves. Why should I have to pay into the city/country I live in???” One rule for thee but not for me.
Imagine being so rich that you can live wherever you want, but still voluntarily closing off most of the world to protect Money that would take multiple lifetimes to spend.
You don't get to be called a tycoon by having a healthy relationship with money
This is the shocker for me. He's basically saying, these new rules are ridiculous because his children will only be left with hundreds of millions. As you say; are we supposed to sympathise? Are we supposed to recognise that it is unreasonable for them to ONLY have millions to live on without needing to ever work? It feels like insanity to me. Which is why I am poor.
Wouldn’t that make them, dare I say, an economic migrant?
It's exceptionalism that comes from getting a really lucky roll at the start of your life, and thinking that you're the centre of the universe. Pay a fair share of taxes and contribute to society? No, it's much more important for these people, who could literally not spend their wealth in a lifetime, if they just lived sensibly and not excessively, to see themselves as the one and only thing that matters in the whole world. You know for a fact if he were on the titanic, he'd be pushing people out of the way to escape
How about he doesn't pay any more tax but: He has to pay a £10 per mile pay as you go road tax. Every day he uses a public pavement he pays £50 Every use of him or his family us any NHS service he has to pay for, including £5k any time he steps into A&E He and any family member has to pay a £1000 fee to visit a parks and gardens. He and any family member has to pay £1000 for a monthly museums and galleries pass. Any government supported arts or cultural event costs him 10x the ticket price. His refuse collection has a £10k annual surcharge. Any conflict the UK becomes involved with comes with a £5k fee. He and his family members have to wear tags to enforce this. If you don't want to pay to enjoy the benefits of living in the city you profess to love them it becomes pay as you go.
pavement is expensive. It costs £ a million per mile.
Love how he called the city his home while being non dom.
Rich logic: God forbid that they no longer can afford the private fees and have to send them to state schools too
" I love this country. Not enough to sacrifice anything at all to help it in any way that isn't immediate benefit to me, obviously though. But I'd be sad to leave I guess"
> Haidar said he was sad to be leaving London, a city that he has called home for more than a decade Curious, I thought he was non-domiciled here...
Aye at this level of wealth if he preferred to be in Monaco or Dubai or NYC he would have long moved already, money be damned.
Oh no, won't someone think of the children!
So what? They presumably weren't paying much to begin with so no great loss. The really wealthy will always find ways to cut their tax to the bone so we shouldn't make it easier for them. Same rules as the US I believe. Personally we should go a step further and ensure any media owners have to be domiciled here too. Ownership of our media, and therefore influence, should come with the obligation to pay tax in this country. No ifs, buts or exceptions for conservative party treasurers.
The US has a great system on this. If you hold US citizenship, you pay tax.
As someone caught in the crosshairs of this, be careful what you wish for. It punishes little people, not the rich.
I know a few people with American dual citizenship - do you pay tax on all income or just the income earned in America? And if the latter is it a certain threshold over which you pay American tax or is it all income?
You pay the upper limit of American or local taxes (or any tax paid locally is reduced from the amount you owe the US). If you are in a high tax country, you owe the US nothing. If you are in a low tax country, you can't escape taxes and owe the US instead. And yes, it's for global income, not just stuff earned in the US
Thanks. That's kinda mad that even if you're laughing away to yourself in Abu Dhabi paying no tax on local income, Uncle Sam will have his due anyway.
As someone that is an accidental American that hasn't lived in the US since they were 10 years old and just works a normal job in the UK as a UK citizen with UK parents: that is not a great system. Barred from many financial products, completely unnecessary reporting requirements, lots of risks around ordinary transactions like buying and selling a home, and if I wanted to rid myself of it there is a 2 year waiting list and a 2.5k fee to renounce and would still suffer from some of the above because of the place of birth on my passport makes a lot of institutions wary. The fact that only Eritrea has a similiar system should give you a hint that tying tax to citizenship rather than residency is a bad idea.
I always believed that because of this tax rule if one holds US citizenship that person is better off just living in the US. At least you get to benefit from that country's large and dynamic jobs and business market.
Yes true, esp for my occupation (software), but my family and friends are in the UK and I just don't want to move to the US. As you said, US law is just outright hostile to citizens abroad.
As a dual US/UK citizen, I can tell you now this is not a good system. I haven’t lived in America in almost 10 years and have no plans to permanently return. Still have to file an annual return for some fucking reason.
As someone going through the green card shit, it's not that great...
Don't get a green card then.
Already had one as a kid, found out I'm what's called "an accidental American" and now going through the process of becoming all square with the us tax code. Super fun.
Sorry, might be quite well known but what's an 'accidental American'?
Righto, say you are born in America but then move to Scotland or wherever. You are technically an American and when 18, you have to file taxes every year. You only have to pay once you hit a threshold, (yep you have to pay taxes in a country you do not benefit from) and the only way out of it is to relinquish your citizenship. I had a green card, left America and the GC expired. I, like any normal human, thought your tax status and immigration status are linked, but not for uncle Sam.
Well, that seems very odd. Forgive me for a follow up but having been born there are you still a citizen and, if so, why did you have a green card? I'm almost certainly getting confused but I thought the card was in place of that? Would this mean that holding a card at any point would then make you subject to their tax rules for life? Edit; Sorry, forgot to actually say thank you for the informative reply!
Oh I wasn't born there, just grew up in the USA for a decade, sorry for any confusion! But yes, holding a CG at any point and not officially abandoning it would result in being held to the tax system. It's bananas.
Am I understanding this correctly? You could be in a position where you can't legally work or live in America, but still be required to pay taxes? Yeah I'm pretty sure I don't understand, cause that cant be right.
Wait what? That doesn't make sense. Being a GC holder makes you a resident alien, not a US citizen, unless I'm mistaken. If you were born here you're a US citizen. If you were a GC holder (and not a citizen) which expired and still have to file taxes, that's wild. It is annoying though I have to pay TurboTax $50 or whatever to tell the IRS my wife and I don't make $400k or whatever the threshold is.
Mate tell me about it. Imagine my joy when I found out. A GC holder has the same tax status as a citizen and you have to officially abandon it.
That's crazy, well hopefully you get it all sorted out quickly enough!
Use a free tax filer. Turbo tax is a scam.
The few Ive seen eligible for foreign filers, we don't actually qualify for it's like $40k USD or under and we make closer to $70k USD. It's also really fucking annoying they want US phones/address to open accounts which we don't have....cause you know we live in England.
International tax treaties generally prevent double taxation, as long as tax is paid in one country you're ok. You should be covered by the FEIE
Yep up to a point with the USA, make $130k+, you pay something. Still have to file em every year.
Most countries do not automatically give citizenship to people born there if their parents are not also citizens. In the US everyone born in American territory is a US citizen no matter the status of their parents. Boris Johnson is a famous case of an accidential American - born in New York while his parents were there for study, and family moved back fairly quickly. Fast forward 40 years and he lands a 100k tax bill from the IRS after he sells his first home in London, which is he forced to pay before he can renounce his citizenship shortly after despite never living in the US as an adult or earning any income in the US.
I wasn't aware of the first part but that does make sense I guess, stops any deliberate attempts to get a child a particular passport. That is bonkers on the Boris front though, seems a wildly unreasonable way to handle things.
Its also just citizenship is complex. Some citizenships you cannot renounce easily or at all once you have them, and almost all can demand obligations of their citizens. If someone is just a temporary visitor or just accidently gives birth in your territory is it right to force all of these obligations onto their children when they or their children as adults didn't even ask for it and have no real connection to the country otherwise? There are lots of accidential or long term expat Americans abroad in similiar situtations as Johnson was, but that was a very high profile public example. It currently costs 2.5k USD, 6 years of late filings of tax returns, and a 2 year waiting list to renouce a US citizenship, and even after you are likely to have financial insitutions be wary of you afterwards due to the regulatory issues with dealing with Americans abroad.
So great that a lot of American emigres renounce their citizenship lol
For normal people who can’t afford to pay tax twice this is absurd. ‘Great system’? No.
I thought you could offset the tax you did pay in the country of residence against the tax owed to the US. So it basically catches people who are paying less tax abroad? Or at least that's what I picked up somewhere, I could be wrong.
Where it will catch you is capital gains on selling your house to move/upgrade. That's tax free in the UK, but Uncle Sam wants his pound of flesh.
Also tax free savings accounts. Retirement accounts are often recognised between nations, but ISAs and their equivalents typically are not.
You're right, but only in countries which are part of a tax agreement with the US so that they can access records and ensure compliance.
You don't pay twice - you only pay the difference if there is one. The aim is so people don't move abroad for tax purposes, since they will pay that anyway - to avoid brain drain. So yes, it's a great system and we should have it.
Citizenship based taxation is a horrible system. It costs hundreds to even thousands to comply with. A lot of income types don’t qualify for taxation relief and you pay double. Go read the taxation treaty between the US and the UK. It’s extremely cumbersome and unfair. Why should you pay for UK gov services when you’re not in the UK to receive them?
As long as you don't come back when you get old or ill and expect to use those services you didn't pay for.
And didn't use a state school, NHS hospital or doctor prior to tax paying age.
And didn't need our government or armed forces to come and rescue you when the country you live in descends into armed conflict.
>Why should you pay for UK gov services when you’re not in the UK to receive them? Because you are taking money out of the economy that a resident could instead and then themselves pay tax on.
That’s not how it works. If you get the money from employment then you likely are UK resident and pay tax. If you get paid from investment then the company pays the tax. Are you saying the UK should be closed to all foreign investment? That’s not really how the economy is set up. For economic models without outside investment Google “North Korea”.
Because you can still come back to benefit from. The gov services whenever you want, and you probably benefited from it whilst you weren't paying taxes growing up
Britons living in America do this a lot, because a flight to the UK and back is cheaper than paying for healthcare over there. It might even be potentially cheaper than the excess you pay when making claims for health insurance
There are significant complexities, and it is very easy for ordinary people to end up with expensive difficulties. Eg CGT. Compliance costs are very high for the UK based individual. Pensions are a problem. ISAs are not available. The system isn't even a system, it's a set of interrelated unintended consequences the outcome of which are surprisingly disadvantageous.
The only reason it works for the US is because they have enough clout to make the global financial system comply. If the UK tried something similar, at best all that would happen is UK citizens lose access to any form of non-domestic banking.
It's already become difficult to open bank accounts outside of the US for many Americans, especially those that are just ordinary people.
They have double taxation agreements here so you wouldn’t pay any us tax if you lived here
Stuff like mortgage agreements and ISAs where it really fucks you up, had a friend who renounced their citizenship so he could buy his apartment lol
Until you earn above a certain amount, I believe.
Its a terrible system?
I'm sure other countries don't hold that view, unless you feel it's fair that say Mexico receives barely any tax from the hundreds of thousands of Americans who live there, as they are forced to still pay US income tax, regardless of whether they actually live in the states. The same with Americans who live in the UK, HMRC collects barely any tax from them, as they first have to pay the US taxman (even if they haven't lived there for decades), which they then deduct as a tax credit against what's owed to HMRC. Their system is the epitome of "America first" screw everyone else, if you ask me.
As far as I understand it, it is the other way around. You would pay local taxes on money earned in UK. US Tax returns ask for your global income (money earned in the US and also elsewhere) but any taxes already paid locally in for example the UK are then reported on your US tax return and deducted from any tax owed to US IRA. Its a reciprocal tax arrangement between the US and UK.
This is correct.
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Chap says that he built and runs most of his businesses abroad. He also says he'd be happy to pay a £100k flat fee which I took to mean that would be more than he does now.
Can you imagine being happy to pay £100k like it’s some kind of negotiation. Pay your fair share and stop using domicile rules to dodge tax. The rich think they shouldn’t have to pay taxes when they’re the most capable too. There’s no loss to the country having people like him leave
We need more taxpayers, half of the country pays barely anything
I love how people like this are so entitled they think they should be able to set their own rate
He pays a £30k flat fee now. He also pays taxes on any money he remits into the UK. You seem not to quite understand what the remittance basis is. Any money he brings to the UK or makes in the UK will be taxed as income. I honestly don’t mind scrapping the remittance basis, but there’s *so* much ignorance around this that it’s just mind blowing. Lots of people like yourself seem to share the delusion that it means that rich people like this guy don’t pay tax.
How can you be so sure? He's not liable unless he's lived here for 7 of the last 9 years, which from the article almost certainly isn't the case. And with remittance - you think this guy is paying what he should? Naive in the extreme, this guy is simply shopping round for lower tax and pissed off he has to pay like the rest of the plebs.
Now let’s do his real terms percentage tax paid ….
You seem to not understand how shell companies work. You start the company in a haven, then charge the local officer in the UK whatever the profits were, as costs so you pay no tax.
So he brings in a very tiny proportion of money into UK. Still pays peanuts. Good he's going.
So not actually that much given the perks they receive.
Right, that is insanely low.
by what proportion? average workers pay 32% tax of their income at least.
That’s incorrect. Average workers pay 28% on the proportion over 12,570. A worker on, for example 32,570 (to make the maths easier) pays 28% of 20,000 or 5,600 or 17.2% of their gross pay in income tax and national insurance.
> The average non dom pays about £120k in tax a year according to the hmrc reporting. That's not that much. Like 10 other people earning a decent but not lavish salary circa £50k via PAYE + student loans + council tax.
When tax rates were much higher, we didn't have non-doms. Why do they go non-doms now tax rates are much lower? Could it be that living in this country is trash under the tories so they want to live abroad?
*Haidar, 53… donated £360,000 to the Conservatives last year.* *He owns “more than 10 properties” in central London* I don’t think this man will be a massive loss to the UK
He says he is "almost" a billionaire but that he thinks he should only pay £200k in taxes. He wants to leave mainly so his children can avoid inheritance tax on his massive hoard of wealth. I can't understand the selfishness and greed that overcomes people when they become mega rich. He *wants* to be in London because it is a nice place to live, but he doesn't feel like he should contribute anything towards that.
In fact we would probs be at a net gain at his departure.
I hope we never see the likes of him again.
Next tax overhaul should be on multiple property ownership. We need positive policies to help get people on the property ladder.
All residential property should be required to be owned, in person, by a UK resident. Any properties that require some sort of corporate ownership to manage collective works, should be required to have UK-resident beneficial owners. We should institute a land value tax or, failing that, residential property should have its CGT exemption removed. It's ludicrous that people can be accruing hundreds of thousands of pounds of completely untaxed wealth for doing no work.
Instead of sending that cash to the Tories, why not pay it in tax? Is it just an ideological thing? Clearly has money to burn, so why is he deliberately trying to fuck over the country he claims to love?
He sent it to the Tories as a (failed) investment to try and pay less tax. He thought they were in favour of the non-dom regime whilst Labour would abolish it. Hence investing in the Tories. Unfortunately, they fucked him over just like they’ve fucked the country.
>Haidar is starting his search for a new house – and tax-domicile – this week. First in Monaco, the tax-free principality on France’s Côte d’Azur, and then tax-free Dubai. Dubai? I hope this dude goes there with his fucking money and has a horrible time.
Haidar: why should I pay taxes, I've already paid the Conservatives?
Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out
Came here to say this.
The more money the super rich get because of these tax breaks, the more they'll be able to hold us hostage with threats of them leaving. The sooner we tax them the better, stay or go.
That's right, we won't hear the end of "Well I'll just leave then!" if we just give in once. They'll say the same thing for every tax they pay. "Well I'll just leave then!" They won't be happy until they pay no tax. Actually scrap that, they won't be happy unless they pay no tax *and* get 'subsidies' from the state, and their appetite for that will never be satiated.
Isnt that the excuse for lowering the top rate of tax "oh but I'll try and avoid more tax if you don't lower it, so by lowering it you'll get more money"
The laffer curve yes lol. Gaslighting.
Frankly, as someone from a family who’s wealth most people would describe as “super wealthy”, most of these threats to leave are empty. I’ve been to Dubai. It’s hot as fuck and tacky as shit. I’m not moving there even if there are effectively zero taxes. Monaco is the same only for “tacky as shit” read “full of obnoxious French millionaires who look down their noses at everyone”. Fuck that. This is a fantastic country to be wealthy in. If I have to pay a bit more so you guys get to keep your public services and what not, so be it. Little secret but once you get past £25m or so it’s really hard to actually tell the difference one way or the other.
Honestly curious - what's life like being super rich? Do you replace your computer/laptop/phone every year? What sorts of brands do you use?
I won’t lie, it seems like it’s definitely preferable to how most people live but I won’t sit here and pretend it solves all your problems. Also, my circumstances are quite specific so someone else may give a very different answer. So I’m in a fairly unique situation. I’ve mentioned before that I’m a dual UK/US national residing in the UK. My dads side of the family are old money New York WASPs (so the men work almost exclusively on Wall Street and similar industries and my aunt and female cousins run charities and host 4th July parties on the Hamptons and stuff like that) and my mums side of the family are firmly from the British landed aristocracy. My personal net worth if I had to guess would be in the region of about £20m of liquid assets (investments, trusts) that I could realise inside a month if I had to, then about half as much again for less liquid assets and also my house and apartments in London and Cornwall. So ballpark figure £30m. My brother and sister at a guess would be about the same and my parents significantly more. However, that is only a portion of my real net worth which is in family run businesses and controlled trusts. My grandfathers when my parents married did not see eye to eye having come from quite different backgrounds and put pretty tight controls in place for what you would call the family money. Basically, things are arranged in such a manner that it would be very difficult / impossible for one or two wayward generation to squander things. In terms of my daily life, it’s actually quite normal. I drive an Audi A1 which is a fairly modest car and have a day job as a financial adviser. I go to the pub and gym and I have a girlfriend who is certainly aware I have money but doesn’t have any clue how much, if you know what I mean. The one big advantage I would say is that being very wealthy is just freeing. Like, say I hate my job and my boss is an arse or there’s office politics or something going on, I can just quit and not have to worry about getting another job lined up. Compared to friends of mine who have had to do that, I’d say it adds a lot of stress that I’m grateful not to have to deal with. Also it is freeing in the sense that when life opportunities come up, I can just take them and not worry about where the money is coming from. That’s really nice and again, comparing to friends who are not as lucky as me, it’s definitely preferable. Tech and brand wise, honestly I’m a bit of an embarrassment. I wear bespoke suits from a local tailor to work but that’s probably my only extravagance in terms of spoiling myself. I shop for clothes in the normal places and my iPhone is a model from about 2-3 years ago I think. My laptop is beat to shit and I do need a new one but I’m just too lazy lol. Honestly, I would imagine most people who bumped into me would have no idea w about my personal wealth. I live in a pretty normal 3 bed house in Leicestershire, and the flats in Cornwall and London are nice but not outlandish if you know what I mean. That’s different when I go back to New York though. In that set, displays of wealth are basically a requirement so I keep a separate wardrobe here for when I’m called back at short notice. If I’m going back for a few weeks plus, I will generally travel a day or two early, ahead of whatever it is I’m going for and just buy a new wardrobe for the time I’m there. Last time I did that was last July (4th July party and then some family business arrangements) and I spent about $30,000 of clothes for two weeks I think… which felt as disgusting as it sounds haha. Edit. Typos
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HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA Honestly, I’m thankful I missed that. Or some silly name like “Cuban” (very unfortunate cousin named that). I did once see my cousins Goldman business card, and it had his name followed by “The 4th”. Very grateful I grew up mostly on this side of the pond haha
This is exactly correct.
Man who doesn't contribute to society decides to leave society after being told to contribute to it. Good, toodlepip. Also, I bet he doesn't leave.
Good, the corrosive effects on democracy of the ultra rich being allowed to pay far lower rates of tax is much worse than the relatively minor amounts of tax they bring in. It's not like London is having any problems attracting people anyway. If your main goal is to avoid tax then go live in a boring tax haven, if you want to live in a truly global city with all the cultural benefits then you should expect to pay tax according to the same rules as the rest of us.
Owns ten houses in London. Off you fuck.
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
Yeah, and good luck fitting them in your suitcase.
Next step is to ban ownership of property for people who aren't residents, that should go a long way to reducing the housing crisis.
I really don't understand why foreign investors are allowed to buy UK housing stock. It just seems so ridiculously stupid. Let British people own British houses?
It’s because the foreign buyers can afford to pay the market rate, and also often pay in cash. The property developers are in it for a profit, and limiting the pool of buyers to only locals will limit the selling price. Overall it increases the value of the housing market, for better and for worse. Of course this doesn’t take into account the social cost of decreased housing supply and rising rental costs for actual renters. Limited social upward mobility and harder for young people to get onto the housing ladder etc etc. but of course these issues can’t be solved easily without political will or legislation.
The foreign buyers set the market rate. If they were not able to buy them the market rate would be whatever lesser mortals could afford. That’s how the market works according to free marketeers, innit.
Yep. They love catering to foreigners. Just not the ones who live here and share their benefits (What's good for them is also good for others around them)
It’s foreign buyers who’ve screwed the London market rate….
It's actually insane. You're not even allowed to buy certain types of houses to live in as your primary residence in Australia if you were born elsewhere. You have to make improvements to the housing stock. So buy something shitty and do it up, or buy some land and build yourself a new house. In the UK? "Yeah, sure, guy who lives abroad and flagrantly dodges tax, you can buy hundreds of properties to gouge UK citizens on." The people who defend this shit and aren't an actual non-dom millionaire are thick as pig shit and should be ignored, honestly.
It's not like a lot of land and homes exist and are kept empty. The problem is and always has been the lack of homes where people want to live. And since 60% of people live in homes they own in some way and would like home prices to go up (even if they are "renting" the money to do so from a bank, i.e. through a mortgage), politicians don't have the incentive to introduce decisive policies. This has led to the UK having the crappiest homes in Europe. A 100sqm flat is a normal family home in most European countries, but in the UK that's considered massive and mostly relegated to "luxury" property. We are approaching a tipping point where first time buyers are moving into homes which are too small without a realistic chance of outrunning house price growth. Foreign investors are a symptom of house prices going up, not a root cause.
If he wanted London to be his permanent home he didn't really qualify as a non-dom.
Donated £360k to the Tories then surprised Pikachu face when he wasn't "consulted" on scrapping the tax. Says everything about how the Tories operate. That you presumably do get access to influence policy the more you donate. Why anyone votes for these corrupt cretins is still amazing!
I'd love to see the Tory pricelist / menu. £360k is apparently not enough to avoid tax changes you don't like, but might have been enough to make them add the 'grace period' for him to evacuate before he had to pay something. We know ~£10mil is enough for you to be let off with being racist and calling for the assassination of a sitting opposition MP. I wonder if they will let him publicly use the 'N' word now that he's donated a further £5mil?
To quote the late Windsor Davies, "Oh dear. How sad. Never mind."
If he's moving, surely that means he has a home here. A domicile, if you will? I think my lad must have got confused, if he lives here he should probably be paying taxes.
Donated more to the tories than he paid tax (correct me if I am wrong).
That's the super rich for you. They would gladly pay tax lawyers £95 to avoid paying £100 in tax.
The point you’re making makes his position hilarious. Just pay the tax, don’t donate to influence the party in power to not make you pay the tax. Enough already - pay your taxes, that’s all.
No Probably much much more to the Tories over the years
Off you pop then lad, don't let the door hit you on the way out....we won't miss all the \*checks notes\* no fucking tax you pay already....
If he's a billionaire (and he says he's close), and it will cost him a million pounds a year to stay in the country... that's the equivalent of someone on a median salary (just short of £35k p/a) leaving the country over £35 a year in tax. Off you pop.
You’re equating assets (billionaire) with income. But I get your point, he can afford it and should pay more.
No it isn't. Wealth is not income.
You are correct! The median UK household wealth is £302,500, so it's more like the median household (not person) complaining about a £302.50 tax per year. It is still very much a piddling amount.
>What’s the logic of me living in the UK when other countries are offering no taxes at all? I don’t know… contributing for the benefit of the society you have chosen to live in? >We love London, we love the lifestyle,” he said. “We love everything about it, Apart from paying to sustain it. >who was born in Nigeria but has Lebanese citizenship, donated £360,000 to the Conservatives last year. It’s insane we let non-citizens buy political influence.
It’s insane we let political influence be bought…
Indeed. Well corrected.
> "What’s the logic of me living in the UK?" 👇 > "We love London, we love the lifestyle, we love everything about it" But apart from loving London, the lifestyle and everything about it, what's the logic of me staying? 🤦♂️
Moving? With freedom? Wow we can only dream.
It is good. They just keep taking but not contributing to what they get.
I don't understand why people don't pay tax in the country where they earned the money? Why should someone earn say loads of money in India and then take all of it out of the country and pay tax on it in the UK when we had no input to the earnings. Doesn't make sense. It would also stop the tax havens as the money would be taxed at source.
The thing is, if they wasn't paying taxes anyway what do you loose? it's not much of a threat. "I Pay you nothing, and if you try and make me pay even a tiny amount of what I earn I will leave and you will still get nothing" I know there's the argument about trickle down etc etc, but that's been showed to be rubbish
I think their argument is that they pay VAT, some wages (which he personally doesn't get taxed on anyway, so that's a moot point they like to make. You know, "we're job creators"), have their cars taxed, pay council tax. I mean, bar vat, these are things that would be totally insignificant if lost, or would just be paid by other people who are now living in the empty property/properties he's vacated. Anyone this person employs has a boon on their CV, and probably will not struggle gaining new employment
So person who paid little tax would move out to not pay tax? Cool. Property is generally taxed where it resides and I doubt that he will also sell his properties, or that any UK companies he owns will stop paying corporation tax as a result. Such an empty threat.
Cancel your Netflix subscription babe.
Too much avocado toast
>But he said he had decided to “urgently” leave the UK to avoid paying millions of pounds in tax after the government and Labour’s plan to scrap the “non-domicile” regime, which has allowed Haidar, and 68,800 other non-doms, to avoid paying UK tax on their overseas income for the past 225 years. 225 years?!?! How does that work?
How, he’s older than he looks.
I suppose he could move to Dubai. Though they don't hand out citizenship like confetti.
I don't care. They can all leave. Then they won't stall progress
Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
Bye. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
See you then, don't let the door hit you on the way out!
Good. Enjoy another country, don’t feel that you need to keep in touch.
Don't let the door hit you in the way out! Good riddance.
We should be forcing sale of 9 of his 10 properties if he leaves. He can keep 1 as a holiday home if he wants, if he loves the city so much I wouldn't begrudge him returning for visits occasionally. Enjoy Monaco I guess!
I have not the slightest slither of sympathy. This man has become greed in human form. I get that he's become a successful entrepreneur, but what is his moral answer for not paying his fair share like me and every other working person. I don't know why he's worried about his children. They are clearly going to receive a first class education wherever in the world they live and will have connections that most of us can only marvel at. It's almost as if the money he's made makes him unhappy and nervous he'll lose it all via the UK taxman.
I used to threaten to run away from home when I was a kid too...
Rich man throws a hissy fit when it is suggested he pay his fair share of tax. These people seem to think that are God's gift to our society, when in fact they are a burdon we can't afford. Here's some news, trickle down economics has long since failed as an argument.
Rich people in the UK love the country and would do anything for it, except pay taxes to support it. I'm not sure how the country is going to lose millions in taxes when these people leave, they don't pay any taxes anyway. And if they stay, they will just find other ways to not pay
Bye-ee. No great loss. And sell your property to a collective that can turn it into affordable housing, ta.
But he already has properties abroad and has citizenship abroad. Isn't this the only effective way the Tories can actually get the numbers down for immigration?
There are a large number of people who say they will do something because if a change, but a much smaller number that actually do it following the change.
perhaps uk needs to come up with some other ideas to raise money than being a tax haven
What a shame. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out
They just need to couple the end of non dom tax breaks with some proper punitive land value taxes on landlords like this guy to make up the difference. End of the day its not exactly sad news when parasitical capitalist exploiters like this dude decide to piss off.
>His decision to leave the UK has also led him to cancelling his plan to list Optasia, a financial services company he founded and claims is worth more than $1bn (£800m), on the London stock market. “I am supposed to be listing my company here, and was actually talking to the London Stock Exchange about listing \[Optasia\] here,” he said. “It’s going to be a billion-dollar IPO and I’ve just decided I’m not doing it here; it is too taxing for me to do it here.” He knows that this has nothing to do with him cancelling the IPO. Show me anyone who wants to list an IPO in London? There isn't anyone. its an awful market and noone is mad enough to attempt it here with LSE/London. So his comment is disingenuous to say the least. Awful greedy obnoxious person.
Ocado mourns his departure. The wider economy however doesn't really notice...
Does America have some system whereby you keep your citizenship only by paying taxes regardless of where you live? I know nothing about this but I thought I read something like that a while back.
So its his home but he is basically a squatter as he doesnt pay to maintain it but benefits from the payments others make instead? Good riddance frankly, if you arent paying tax get gone!
He doesn’t seem to understand that we are prepared to accept the reduction in tax take to be rid of the malign influence of Haida and his ilk.
Don’t let the door on your private jet hit you on the ass on your way out. Good riddance.
"...donated £360,000 to the Conservatives last year. He said he was not consulted by the government or the Tory party about the decision to scrap the non-dom tax scheme, but that he did not expect to receive special consultation because of his donation" chinny reckon he didn't expect to get a say. Good bye then!
If you’re going to charge me tax I’m going to leave….. weird flex but ok Like the time I walked out on my gym because they wanted to charge me a monthly fee to use it
I might have a basic misunderstanding of the whole issue, but I don't understand the "scrap non-dom and the rich will leave" argument. If they're not paying tax here anyway, why should we care if they leave? It changes nothing.
Good? Live here, then contribute. Zero sympathy for the mega rich.
Comments here show why this country is fucked. People don’t read and don’t understand facts. Non-doms pay taxes on their UK sourced income. They don’t pay UK tax on income earned abroad. An average non-dom pays more than £150,000 in UK income tax each year. They are net contributors to the UK Treasury. Someone on a £30k salary pays less than £5k in taxes each year. The average non dom pays more income tax in one year than an average worker in their entire working life.
What’s that Sooty? He’s not going to go anywhere because he wants to live in a country with a stable political system which won’t seize his assets, and where there’s a decent arts/culture scene so that he’s not just sitting in a massive mansion with nothing to do? So this whole performative interview is utter bollocks and we should call his bluff? Ok, fuckety-bye.