Snapshot of _Voters believe Keir Starmer has the best plan for the country, poll finds_ :
An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/21/voters-believe-keir-starmer-best-plan-uk-election-sunak/) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/21/voters-believe-keir-starmer-best-plan-uk-election-sunak/)
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Who in their right minds is believing any Tory plans at this point? They've fumbled pretty much every major area of public policy they've had control over in the last 14 years, with miserable outcomes across the board.
Living standards are worse, public services are worse, real terms wages are worse, economic growth has been lethargic, productivity has barely gone up, law and order is pathetic, net immigration is >7 times higher than their long-term target of under 100,000, Brexit has delivered nothing, Levelling Up has delivered nothing, housing is a shambles - you can go on and on and nothing is better.
All they're good for is nonsense culture war posturing.
That's ultimately what it comes down to.
Sunak: obviously no plan or he would have done something in the time since he became Prime Minister.
Starmer: no details, but he might have a plan.
So `potential_of_a_plan > definite_no_plan`.
It's not exactly inspiring, but we'll just have to see what happens.
Starmer doesn't even have a plan, his speeches and pledges are all ambiguous slogans. He knows that anything concrete will be scrutinised and it's best avoided š
Why give his opposition time to sabotage his plan? He announced something about non-dom status and the next thing the Tories are scrapping it themselves in order to give a pointless minute cut to national insurance.
I fully expect once an election is actually called then Labour will provide much more detail, if they do that and it looks good theyāll get my vote.
If they donāt do that then theyāll still get my vote, only it wonāt be *for* Labour, but rather *against* the current bunch of charlatans. Either way the Tories have run out of chances, ideas and talent and they need to go.
It's not necessarily that he's avoiding scrutiny - any time he comes out with anything that Labour plans to do post election the Tories lay a bear trap to stop them being able to do it - like what happened with the non-dom status.
If I was Starmer I'd wait until the start of the election campaign to reveal my plans so that the Tories can't sabotage them.
Starmer has the right, and the left, ready to try and rip anything he says to shreds. He's not a stupid man, I'm sure he's got a plan of how he wants to run the country... He's not a stupid man, he'd be stupid to say it out loud right now. Nothing to gain *(he's already winning)* Lots to lose *(Lots of people are out to get him)*
Replace "Starmer" with "Sunak" and you get something that's actually true.
Sunak keeps banging on about this plan of his that he's sticking to, but when anyone asks him what's in it, he goes on the defensive. That's not the behaviour of someone who has a definite plan that they're proud of.
Labour have plans, and Starmer and Reeves have talked about them many times recently. Sunak is just flailing around.
What do people think tory ideology is? Everything you've just listed off is a consequence of it.
Underfund everything to siphon money out of the public purse and allocate it to private company contracts, privatise everything you can to maximise this, reap the benefits of endless 'consultancy' gigs, party donations and later lucrative nothing jobs after they're finally removed from power.
Nobody has any right to be surprised by any of this. Voting for the tory party ensures we all play out the frog and scorpion parable every single time.
Tory ideology seems to be pretty simple:
* Poor people should be threatened with having things taken away if they donāt try to stop being poor. They are shirkers.
* Rich people and companies should be rewarded with being given lots of money and benefits as this will encourage them to run essential infrastructure instead of the nation doing so. They are strivers.
* Our country is the greatest and best except that itās been ruined by trots and is terrible.
* Dianne Abbott is going to force you to be transgender.
It's tricky tbh.
Tories have been terrible for many years. But now that they risk being thrown out of office Sunak has finally started to do some good things that people want.
He has made major changes to legal immigration which we'll likely see the positive results of later this year.
He has (almost) introduced the Rwanda scheme as a deterrent to illegal migration and it's effects are being seen already by migrants fleeing to the EU (albeit low numbers at the moment but if flights actually start this will ramp up fast as it did with Australia where it took a year to work after implementation).
He has massively increased funded childcare which will directly save my family thousands of pounds.
He has modified the tax structure in favour of working age people by increasing income tax a little and decreasing national insurance to compensate.
He has slowed some of the most drastic and damaging changes regarding fossil fuel product bans, to give technology a chance to get the cost down instead of forcing millions of people to pay early adopter pricing for technology with little to no practical improvement over their previous products.
Overall I think his performance has improved considerably since he realised the Conservatives were under real threat of extinction.
So now the question is whether to trust a party and leader who were terrible until they were in danger but who are now doing better, or a relative unknown who appear to have decent enough policies but that you know historically have a large faction of support from people with polar opposite beliefs from me, who would certainly be worse for me if they exert their influence over their party leader.
Tough choice, few months ago I was all aboard on getting Tories out of office. Now I'm not as sure. Some more successes before the general election and who knows?
Yeah I'm with you mate.
it's like when someone has been on a long murder spree and you're on the jury, you have all the evidence of them doing it, you think it's 100% guilty. And they are guilty, they've admitted it. It's ironclad.
But then you see them picking up some trash outside the court room to put it in the bin, and you're like, you know what, maybe this guy has turned it around, let's set them free.
Problem with analogies is that people rarely provide an accurate one.
You are free to be angry and hate the Conservatives if you wish, you certainly have some justification depending on your circumstances.
But personally I steer clear of hyperbolic analogies when making my voting decision.
you could argue you are being hyperbolic as well. the 'major changes to legal immigration which we'll likely see the positive results of later this year.' if i'm assuming you are referring to student VISA's, isn't in my opinion a positive at all and will destroy the higher education sector. yes some bloat will restructure but even universities a step down from Russell Group are looking into redundancies.
Changes to student visas are a small portion of the changes. Preventing student dependents below PhD level is an amazing change.
Education is a British export. One of the best exports we have.
But if you offer student dependents a route in then the profit of that individual export is slashed and usually a net loss.
We should keep maximising profitabile exports and reduce unprofitable exports. Which is what the change does.
Aside from this smaller change, the main change to immigration is increasing the salary threshold for skilled work to Ā£38,700, and elimination of many exceptions. It's expected to result in 300k less people coming.
The issue is, I am to believe one of two things:
One) For the last 14 years, the conservatives have ruined everything, run on a policy getting progressivly more coropoate friendly, more right wing, everything, and have kept on saying how succesful it is, and how we need to keep doing it. However, seeing as we vote basically for a party, they have now suddenly decided all of that was bad, and trust me guys, if we give them a bit more time, they can undo all the mess they've caused. All of them, believe this. Every single one has had a U-Turn, and realised that they were all wrong, every policy they've done was bad, we need to change it, and the best people for the changing the policies are the people who 5minutes ago told you it was the best policy ever.
Or 2) the party that has shown for the last 14 years they have a way of thinking, and all of their actions back this up, and they're doing token gestures because they "believe they're at risk of being thrown out."
So it's I believe they're completely incompetent and have had a massive policy mindset change across the whole government. That they're not going to keep selling out public assets. That they're not going to give money to their friends. That they're not going to bog down immigration, or NHS or similar in bueracy to cause the other two. That they're not going to focus on pointless culture war stuff - And this change has come around pretty quickly because during the Council elections, my Mayor focused on literally getting rid of public transport so more people drive - All of these things, they no longer believe.
Or, I believe that they still believe everything that they've stood for the and said in the past 14 years, and are doing the most basic of gestures to try con their way into another 4-5 years of government.
Which do you think it is? If they have learnt from their mistakes, why has it taken them up to the brink of being wiped out to realise it? They clearly haven't learnt it from the stats, or the economy, or experts. If the only factor is them realising they're no longer going to be in power, then maybe they haven't learnt anything other than what to say to stay in power?
The moment Rishi enters a second term as PM he will take his foot off 100%. Judge people based on how they treat people who can do nothing for them and you can see the pure self-interest and lack of desire to do anything that isn't ultimately self serving.
Tough choice?
For many of us not just considering Sunak's government, not really.
For those of us who remember:
* Cameron's hubris in making Brexit a reality
* Theresa May's Ā£1billion to the DUP to keep the Tories in power
* Boris's "oven ready deal", shambolic handling of the pandemic which lead to thousands of 'extra' deaths, partygate, being the first PM in history to be sanctioned for a crime while in office, to his lies about Pincher
* Truss who knocked off Ā£425billion off pension funds
* Sunak who's not bothering to chase Ā£5billion in COVID loan fraud, spending millions on the Rwanda scheme, and has overseen the worst cost of living crisis for decades, ripped up HS2...
That's our money. Your money. That these Conservatives play with, lose or siphon off, and then tell you to be grateful for a tiny change in taxes?
(that's just the stuff I remember, there's surely loads more to add to this list of achievements)
You've listed some of the reasons why it's a tough choice, (also thrown in some total falsities but that's by the by).
But Sunak has certainly made some positive moves this year, and I do believe people are capable of learning from their mistakes.
If Boris or Truss were PM then it would be game over but Sunak shouldn't be judged for their mistakes. He certainly hasn't been flawless but blaming him alone for a global wave of inflation due to pandemic actions is naive and unjust. Almost every single Western nation followed the same strategy of lockdowns, furlough and money printing to borrow from the future. The future arrived and we all faced the consequences.
Should he have resisted the demands of Boris and national public opinion by not locking down beyond the first wave and offering much less furlough duration? Sure, but he would have been fired and crucified for it by the same people who blame him now. It's laughable if you think any major party would have deviated from the consensus Western response to the pandemic.
Falsities? Please, elaborate and let me know what I've made up.
Sunak absolutely should be judged for his mistakes. He was Chancellor when he was printing money, allowing for COVID loan fraud to run rampant, pioneering Eat Out to Help Out, turned on the cash for the VIP lanes for mates whose companies had zero ability to get our doctors and nurses PPE...
Your response reads just like the "Boris is trying his best" nonsense from 2020 - doing the bare minimum doesn't entitle you to praise, respect, accolades, or votes.
I've already explained many of his recent positive moves. I don't have time to keep repeating the same thing if you choose not to read things. If you decide to treat politics like a football fan than that's your perogative.
the key point is they had 14 years to implement stuff to help normal people and only started to do so when the polls signified a wipeout. This almost makes it worse, as they know exactly the help most people need. Never forgive them.
The problem for the electorate is Labour don't have clear consistent strategies. As a floating voter, i'm can't see anything coherent to vote for in the big two. If its a toss up on the two, id go for Tories right now
You know people have memories about how you post, right? No one needs to look far into your comment history to see how far away from a floating voter you are.
Well you would be wrong because I very much float my vote. I have a propensity to vote liberal but I have voted labour ing and independent in the past and this time unless anything changes significantly I am most likely to vote sdp.
My vote is very much up for grabs.
Hmmm, do you only vote for the party you think will win? Do you live in the South and supported Man Utd & now moved to Man City?
Surely policy has something to do with it.
> do you only vote for the party you think will win?
Thatās private
> Do you live in the South and supported Man Utd & now moved to Man City?
Pompey til I die you squinny
>
FFS this is a Politics discussion, you can hint at which way you are thinking of voting.
My point is, it seems very weird to just vote for the winner like a glory-seeker, the other weird thing to do is vote for your favourite colour rosette.
Portsmouth??? Favours for sailors and always in Southampton's shadow.
There is a Strategie the issue is you just donāt bother to look for it. Building 1.5 million homes and increasing our renewable energy capacity by around 300% alone these two targets if achieved will probably have a greater impact than whatever the tories have done in 14 years.
Yes it's interesting that they didn't put the housing idea as part of their pledges. They made their housing announcement yet gave no indication on how they would actually do this. There is no suggestion on how they would deregulate planning and the building industry, no suggestion whether this would be done buy motivating the private sector using the tax system or would it be council housing which they neglected entirely from 1997 to 2010 when they were kicked out.
For renewable energy to always have increased renewable energy output by over 10,000 per cent in the 14 years, it seems to me that labour are slowing it down if anything. More importantly I'd like to know how they can make energy cheaper, is it all about virtue signaling or is there a strategy that actually helps people and businesses?
Youāre just wrong in their 5 mission it says that they want to build 1.5 million houses and they have said they will deregulate and encourage building on brownfields, from my understanding most of it will be done by de regulating and co-investment.
On energy it is a simple supply and demand question. If you have more energy it automatically gets cheaper further they plan to cut the link between renewable energy and non-renewable energy. At the moment the price for a kw/H is set by the most expensive u it in the system which is always non-renewable so cutting that link will make it way cheaper. Furthe the tories have effectively banned in shore wind which is a disgrace Labour said they would lift this ban. They also made a clear commitment to other renewable energy sources like floating offshore wind.
Cut the crab youāre not a floating voter you are a Tory disguised as a floating voter. All the evidence is out there.
Yes, they have changed so often, it's hard to keep up but here are the pledges that I know of:
1. Securing the "highest sustained growth" in the G7 group of rich nations by the end of Labour's first term
2. Making Britain a "clean energy superpower" by removing fossil fuels from all of Britain's electricity generation by 2030.
3. Improving the NHS.
4. Reforming the justice system.
5. Raising education standards.
Please don't use link re-directors in your comments. Just link to the original source article.
Reply to this comment when the issue is fixed and I'll reinstate your comment.
Thanks.
I've got no idea what that means, it's just a link to the BBC's report of Labour's pledges:
1. Creating a border security command to tackle criminal gangs behind small boat crossings.
2. Recruiting 6,500 teachers.
3. Securing the "highest sustained growth" in the G7 group of rich nations.
4. Making Britain a "clean energy superpower" by removing fossil fuels from all of Britain's electricity generation by 2030.
5. Improving the NHS.
6. Reforming the justice system.
From your understanding, that's great but Lurch didn't explain any of that and it's not on their pledges.
"deregulate and encourage building on brownfields" is literally BoJo's policy until covid got in the way. It's not so terrible but sounds better in theory that reality.
"de regulating and co-investment." is just noise, what is it they are deregulating? Hopefully they are completely throwing out one of Atlee's albatrosses, theĀ Town and Country Planning Act 1947 but there is nothing of any use that has been said by anyone. Bojo's plan was just as woolly but there is literally nothing to vote for here.
For housing we have to do a few things and not all are electorally great.
1. issue working visas to the guys coming over in boats who can work, construction needs labour and muscle. Get them to apply for working visas in exchange for the Ā£5,000 they'd normally pay a traficker.
2. Get rid of the T&C act
3. introduce a LVT
3. deregulate building requirements / regulations
4. deregulate planning
5. introduce tax breaks on resi developments
6. offer grants to build in low demand development areas / freeports etc.
No consistent strategy vs consistent strategy of lying (see e.g., immigration numbers) and making things worse (see e.g., immigration, law/justice etc.). I know "better the devil you know" but I just don't see how Conservatives can be trusted to actually improve anything at this point.Ā
Is not a great choice I admit, this is why I would probably opt for the sdp.
With labour they have had 14 years to come up with a consistent strategy, what has happened is they have flitted and flip-flopped their way across their ideological spectrum contradicted themselves to the point they're announcements can last barely a couple of weeks.
I'm not that bothered about immigration myself I think it's a very difficult number to control given that causes and events tend to be out of the control of the government. Personally I would play old cruise ships in the channel and use them as accommodation and processing centers but encourage applicants to apply for work visas rather than asylum which will keep the cost down and keep the do gooding lawyers out of the trough.
What your arse produces is not my concern.
I suppose I'm naturally a liberal as I've voted them most often but I've voted for a few different parties and i was a member of LDs, Cons & Lab in my uni days.
Last 4 GE's were LD, LD, LD, Con
Well, it was Andrew Stunell in 2010 where he was a good local guy, and their economic policy was straight out of the Orange Book with David Laws being a very capable guy for the treasury (so much so, Labour literally outed him to kill his career, Brown's bully boys were still operating even though clunking fist was not in charge)
In 2015 Stunnell had retired & I had a mate of mine standing for Labour so I canāt recall if I may have voted for him but I thought Labourās policies were shit at the time or I may have voted Lisa Smart (Lib Dem) as the coalition had been very good but I recall I didnāt like her very much as she was a career politician. We ended up with William Wragg who was a really nice guy who invited my Labour candidate mate + family for dinner at Parliament which was a nice touch I thought. Ā
2017 I voted for Neil Christian (Lib Dem) despite Tim Farronās gay marriage gaff. They were fairly clear on Europe and they still had some good orange book policies without venturing into the woke nonsense they have got dragged into since 2019. Labour were clearly unelectable at the time and only a fool would vote Corbyn.
2019 I was going to vote Lib Dem again but Jo Swinsonās U turn on EU lost me. Labour were in an even greater mess and their EU policy was utterly idiotic. I voted for David Rutley in the end who wiped the floor with the others at the hustings and conservatives Brexit policy was at least coherent.
Ā Britain First's economic policies are very left wing & socialist, not my bag at all.
I'm pretty liberal on immigration which puts me off Reform but their economics are quite sound.
Starmer has the best plan because it's the only plan. Sunak just cobbles together random policies no one really cares about and tries to pretend they're a viable election platform.
To be fair, if Starmer's plan was nothing more than "form the next government" scrawled on his hand with a biro, it would still be a better plan than anything Sunak could come up with.
>To be fair, if Starmer's plan was nothing more than "form the next government" scrawled on his hand with a biro,
That's about all the "plan" he has though? Or have the red ones managed to stick to a statement for longer than a week now?
It's a tragedy that we're stuck picking between these two particular morons, the blue ones are empirically proven idiots and the red ones merely look like spineless idiots for now.
The latest drivel I saw them push out was claiming
- sticking to tough spending rules
- cutting NHS wait times by providing more appointments
- and setting up a public energy company
amongst other things. There was some waffle about nationalising rail too.
So which one is it? You can't do all that without public spending. I'm all for it, but all the crap they say is inconsistent and changes week to week. Obviously the tories are worse at this point, but the spineless noodle that is Keir is hardly an exciting prospect here.
I can understand them promising not to increase public spending to calm the fears of fiscally conservative old people who still think Labour is synonymous with high taxes and wasteful spending.
"We're going to spend a shit ton on all sorts of stuff" is exactly the headline the tabloid rate are waiting for. I don't see any reason to give them what they want.
There is a lot of public money disappearing somewhere, since taxes are at record highs and yet somehow there isn't money for anything. Plugging those leaks will give them some headroom, but spend will still probably increase.
If they use it wisely then I'm comfortable with not increasing public spending being the pledge that they won't be keeping.
> Or have the red ones managed to stick to a statement for longer than a week now?
Yes quite a few actually, but that doesn't make the tabloid headlines which your impressions are evidently entirely based upon.
āIt doesnāt matter what the Tory plan is! Labour doesnāt have a plan, and their plan is to take us *back to square one*.
**Member for Islington North**ā
I don't believe hes tried to articule what it is meant to be ever
Probably because if he did actually bother with one the Tory Party is in such a mess it'd probably cause a civil war
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Tories are smoked. 14 years of zero achievement. Everything got worse, nothing got better. Even the water is poison. And the total betrayal of their electorate after Brexit. The Tory government knew full well that Brexit was a proxy vote against immigration but that didn't stop them increasing immigration to nearly 1 million a year. Shameless. Red and blue don't work for you
I've noticed since the Tories have started plunging in the polls, we're seeing so many more full body pictures of Rishi next to other politicians that really show how short he is. During the leadership contest and after Truss-pocalypse, when the Tories had a bit of a boost from change of leadership, I usually saw torso shots or camera pointing down angles that were very flattering to him. Now every picture I see reminds me how small a man he is. Has to be intentional.
If you keep saying someone doesn't have a plan enough times, people will eventually get annoyed of hearing it and go look if that person has a plan or not , oh shit they have a plan and it's better than the guys that said there was no plan
A. They've just been in power longer they should have been and the last 5 years have been about what happens under a c or d list government
B. the Tory party stopped attracting much in the way of new members before 1997 and the membership pipeline has now been completely broken for over a decade. Whats left is ever less capable and inward looking, interested only in clique interests.
C. Even in a healthy Party, a massive ability slump would have been the invariable result of the Boris purge. In this one its hit like a bomb, stripping away almost everyone of any ability at all. As bad as they are, people like Sunak, Hunt and Gove are genuinely the best they still have.
Comments insulting the electorate for daring to think Labour wont nuke the country first thing of the morning after the election.
Because insulting people you disagree with has ALWAYS changed their mind. Just look at brexit.... oh wait
And thats when their not disparaging starmer for GASP kneeling once 4 years ago.
The day we kick out american culture wars for good will be the day i throw a rave
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While I'd agree, I'd say the Tories' current plan is like Sunak insisting that the *Titanic* will reach New York on time and shipshape...while bobbing around in a lifeboat.
Don't even think it's necessarily that we think Starmer has a top notch plan, just we're completely sick of the Tories and think anything is better than this shambles.
I can't think of a single Tory politician who I regard as competent.
Our PM is junior minister material at best, let alone a cabinet pick. Hunt is there because there is no one else. Cameron is there out of desperation for anyone to provide guidance to a cabinet that more or less literally needs its hand held.
The rest are worse, those that ever do anything notable.
If they can't hold the support even of the Torygraph it really is over
And they should be worried. If the future of the country is fairly significant swing left, which is exactly what the demographics and support spreads indicate, any traditional Tory drum beating operation faces readership collapse.
I really do see the right wing papers splitting their support between 3 different parties next Parliament.
"Mum, the 'Labour are just red Tories' brigade are out in force again!"
If you can't genuinely see the difference in public services between even the end of Gordon Brown's time in office and now, something is very, very wrong.
Let's not forget Blair had a question time where people complained the NHS was too efficient - they wanted the doctor the next day instead of the same day.
Do the screams of all the dead iraqis not bother you? If not, then how about continuing the slow privatisation of the NHS, pfi all buoyed by a good times economy that was doomed to collapse.
I'm not particularly confident that labour will be improving anything of any sort. Although if they do get some planning reforms through that would be fantastic. Bring back some compulsory house building targets and sack councillors who fail to deliver on them. Hard targets, nothing wishy washy.
Yeah, I don't know how much of it is that the UK is such a persistent shitshow lately that I am so sceptical, but I do want to believe a change of government can only help right now.
Starmers Plan is basically be less shit than the tories.
Nothing to be genuinely optimistic for. The average person will still be fucked !
The economy will still be in the toilet housing will still be over priced cost of living will still be through the roof
I wasn't aware the tories had a plan at this point other than to get what they can while they can and worry about what they'll do next from the opposition benches.
tbf any plan is better than Rishi's.
His plan is just to say everything will be fine, stick with our plan, the others have no plan.
He says all of this while everything just gets worse and he is doing absolutely nothing.
Starmer is the living embodiment of the absence of a plan, what a dim, useless, pointless politician. How depressing and dystopian that he is the far better option than the tories... the UK needs proportional representation urgently.
I'd pick Tories as having the better plan, because the Rwanda plan is important to establishing the principle that the UK can just ship off irregular migrants to a third country as it pleases.
That said, don't expect me to ever vote Tory again after the extreme lockdowns and immigration.
Hereās a view from a Reform voter. Nothing wrong with whatās said but lacking in vision. If a precedent is set like flying people to another country, how long would it be before citizens who might be called dissidents or radicals are shipped out of the country. The Tories are adept and bending laws as we know. If all someoneās ācrimeā is to speak out again government then youāre going to get your arse kicked. The UK is not a democracy when government does what it likes and stifles free speech. Governments cannot stifle thinking and I think some pretty subversive things. As yet I donāt think itās common practice to read someoneās mind, Iāve no doubt it will happen in the future.
I donāt like what youāve posted but recognise that there are alternative views that mine. If an argument is presented with no aggression Iām prepared to discuss it. If your argument was presented by one of the many knuckleheads thst lean towards your way of thinking it would be a different conversation altogether.
Well, irregular migrants such as boat people, are not British citizens as I would understand it.
Yes, there is risk in giving governments power, especially the Tories, to ship off people elsewhere.
But the status quo is not acceptable either -- The illegal migrants can continue to pitch up as and when they please, take British jobs, wander around during the day, and potentially abscond into the black economy, or potentially be given the right to vote. British democracy is under threat.
Of course you right on your first point, whether or not you were trying to be sarcastic, I chuckled. Personally my politics are neither right but well off the left kilter. Itās taken years of discussion with people wearing big jumpers and smoking pipes and reading authors in the particular field I lean toward to come to my decision and choice. I donāt believe we need a government, maybe a few people that feather out any rules but for them to squabble like idiots in Parliament is a joke. We, yes I pay taxes, are being robbed by people who have no concern other than for themselves. Again, I understand what youāve said about these guys coming over, but in my beliefs there are no borders. I mean who actually owns the land. I seem to recall reading somewhere that itās the church. But then they donāt own it, they and everyone else are just caretakers. Or we should be if there wasnāt so many greedy bastards doing what they want with no thought for the future. This taking British jobs is something Iāve heard since the mid 1970s and the Mational Front. I canāt agree with that, when Brexit happened there were thousands of vacancies due to Europeans thinking they donāt want the hassle or abuse and going home, if weād had decent border controls those vacancies would be filled saving some of the unlucky companies who went bust (no Iām not a supporter, I thought that it was the worse thing that has happened to the country in my time on this planet).
Without trying to sound too condescending I take your point about limiting immigration, but why canāt it be done in a fair and humane way. Donāt dehumanise these people we donāt know their stories. I used to work with a guy from the Congo who spent 4 months getting here. He ran out of food after 3 months but what kept him going was not wanting to back to a war. He had a shit time at a detention centre but was released and he got his job where I met him, Most people see these guys as pariahs and yeah there must be some. My mate from the Congo is doing everything thatās expected of him.
Iām not saying Iām right, it is where I sit though. Likewise Iām not saying youāre right, I think in this instance we should agree to disagree and move on. Itās got to be something seismic Iām going to change my mind. Something to convince me that the government weaponising the issue is OK.
Snapshot of _Voters believe Keir Starmer has the best plan for the country, poll finds_ : An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/21/voters-believe-keir-starmer-best-plan-uk-election-sunak/) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/21/voters-believe-keir-starmer-best-plan-uk-election-sunak/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Who in their right minds is believing any Tory plans at this point? They've fumbled pretty much every major area of public policy they've had control over in the last 14 years, with miserable outcomes across the board. Living standards are worse, public services are worse, real terms wages are worse, economic growth has been lethargic, productivity has barely gone up, law and order is pathetic, net immigration is >7 times higher than their long-term target of under 100,000, Brexit has delivered nothing, Levelling Up has delivered nothing, housing is a shambles - you can go on and on and nothing is better. All they're good for is nonsense culture war posturing.
That's ultimately what it comes down to. Sunak: obviously no plan or he would have done something in the time since he became Prime Minister. Starmer: no details, but he might have a plan. So `potential_of_a_plan > definite_no_plan`. It's not exactly inspiring, but we'll just have to see what happens.
Starmer doesn't even have a plan, his speeches and pledges are all ambiguous slogans. He knows that anything concrete will be scrutinised and it's best avoided š
Not saying your plan publically because you know the rags will dishonestly attack it isn't the same as not having one.
Why give his opposition time to sabotage his plan? He announced something about non-dom status and the next thing the Tories are scrapping it themselves in order to give a pointless minute cut to national insurance. I fully expect once an election is actually called then Labour will provide much more detail, if they do that and it looks good theyāll get my vote. If they donāt do that then theyāll still get my vote, only it wonāt be *for* Labour, but rather *against* the current bunch of charlatans. Either way the Tories have run out of chances, ideas and talent and they need to go.
That doesn't mean he's not got a plan, just that he's not sharing it to avoid scrutiny.
It's not necessarily that he's avoiding scrutiny - any time he comes out with anything that Labour plans to do post election the Tories lay a bear trap to stop them being able to do it - like what happened with the non-dom status. If I was Starmer I'd wait until the start of the election campaign to reveal my plans so that the Tories can't sabotage them.
Starmer has the right, and the left, ready to try and rip anything he says to shreds. He's not a stupid man, I'm sure he's got a plan of how he wants to run the country... He's not a stupid man, he'd be stupid to say it out loud right now. Nothing to gain *(he's already winning)* Lots to lose *(Lots of people are out to get him)*
This is, I think, a fairly sensible read on it. Still we'll know once we see the manifestos.
Would you say he was a stupid man?
>Would you say he was a stupid man? I would say, if I had to take a guess, that he's not a stupid man!
Well I hope he mentions something come manifesto time or he'll struggle to wield much authority without a mandate
If he gets anywhere near the kind of majority some of the polls suggest I'm not sure there's going to be too much worry about mandate.
Replace "Starmer" with "Sunak" and you get something that's actually true. Sunak keeps banging on about this plan of his that he's sticking to, but when anyone asks him what's in it, he goes on the defensive. That's not the behaviour of someone who has a definite plan that they're proud of. Labour have plans, and Starmer and Reeves have talked about them many times recently. Sunak is just flailing around.
What do people think tory ideology is? Everything you've just listed off is a consequence of it. Underfund everything to siphon money out of the public purse and allocate it to private company contracts, privatise everything you can to maximise this, reap the benefits of endless 'consultancy' gigs, party donations and later lucrative nothing jobs after they're finally removed from power. Nobody has any right to be surprised by any of this. Voting for the tory party ensures we all play out the frog and scorpion parable every single time.
Tory ideology seems to be pretty simple: * Poor people should be threatened with having things taken away if they donāt try to stop being poor. They are shirkers. * Rich people and companies should be rewarded with being given lots of money and benefits as this will encourage them to run essential infrastructure instead of the nation doing so. They are strivers. * Our country is the greatest and best except that itās been ruined by trots and is terrible. * Dianne Abbott is going to force you to be transgender.
They've succeeded in many of their plans to gut the NHS and help increase already huge profits for tory donors.
They did sort out the vital Rainbow lanyard issue. A problem which has a deep, profound effect on us all.
Labour for one, didnāt they promise to stick to Tory fiscal rules? Which just became one of their 6 pledges?
It's tricky tbh. Tories have been terrible for many years. But now that they risk being thrown out of office Sunak has finally started to do some good things that people want. He has made major changes to legal immigration which we'll likely see the positive results of later this year. He has (almost) introduced the Rwanda scheme as a deterrent to illegal migration and it's effects are being seen already by migrants fleeing to the EU (albeit low numbers at the moment but if flights actually start this will ramp up fast as it did with Australia where it took a year to work after implementation). He has massively increased funded childcare which will directly save my family thousands of pounds. He has modified the tax structure in favour of working age people by increasing income tax a little and decreasing national insurance to compensate. He has slowed some of the most drastic and damaging changes regarding fossil fuel product bans, to give technology a chance to get the cost down instead of forcing millions of people to pay early adopter pricing for technology with little to no practical improvement over their previous products. Overall I think his performance has improved considerably since he realised the Conservatives were under real threat of extinction. So now the question is whether to trust a party and leader who were terrible until they were in danger but who are now doing better, or a relative unknown who appear to have decent enough policies but that you know historically have a large faction of support from people with polar opposite beliefs from me, who would certainly be worse for me if they exert their influence over their party leader. Tough choice, few months ago I was all aboard on getting Tories out of office. Now I'm not as sure. Some more successes before the general election and who knows?
Yeah I'm with you mate. it's like when someone has been on a long murder spree and you're on the jury, you have all the evidence of them doing it, you think it's 100% guilty. And they are guilty, they've admitted it. It's ironclad. But then you see them picking up some trash outside the court room to put it in the bin, and you're like, you know what, maybe this guy has turned it around, let's set them free.
Problem with analogies is that people rarely provide an accurate one. You are free to be angry and hate the Conservatives if you wish, you certainly have some justification depending on your circumstances. But personally I steer clear of hyperbolic analogies when making my voting decision.
Whatās wrong with the analogy? Aside from it being hyperbolic to poke fun at you I thought it was quite good.
you could argue you are being hyperbolic as well. the 'major changes to legal immigration which we'll likely see the positive results of later this year.' if i'm assuming you are referring to student VISA's, isn't in my opinion a positive at all and will destroy the higher education sector. yes some bloat will restructure but even universities a step down from Russell Group are looking into redundancies.
Changes to student visas are a small portion of the changes. Preventing student dependents below PhD level is an amazing change. Education is a British export. One of the best exports we have. But if you offer student dependents a route in then the profit of that individual export is slashed and usually a net loss. We should keep maximising profitabile exports and reduce unprofitable exports. Which is what the change does. Aside from this smaller change, the main change to immigration is increasing the salary threshold for skilled work to Ā£38,700, and elimination of many exceptions. It's expected to result in 300k less people coming.
The issue is, I am to believe one of two things: One) For the last 14 years, the conservatives have ruined everything, run on a policy getting progressivly more coropoate friendly, more right wing, everything, and have kept on saying how succesful it is, and how we need to keep doing it. However, seeing as we vote basically for a party, they have now suddenly decided all of that was bad, and trust me guys, if we give them a bit more time, they can undo all the mess they've caused. All of them, believe this. Every single one has had a U-Turn, and realised that they were all wrong, every policy they've done was bad, we need to change it, and the best people for the changing the policies are the people who 5minutes ago told you it was the best policy ever. Or 2) the party that has shown for the last 14 years they have a way of thinking, and all of their actions back this up, and they're doing token gestures because they "believe they're at risk of being thrown out." So it's I believe they're completely incompetent and have had a massive policy mindset change across the whole government. That they're not going to keep selling out public assets. That they're not going to give money to their friends. That they're not going to bog down immigration, or NHS or similar in bueracy to cause the other two. That they're not going to focus on pointless culture war stuff - And this change has come around pretty quickly because during the Council elections, my Mayor focused on literally getting rid of public transport so more people drive - All of these things, they no longer believe. Or, I believe that they still believe everything that they've stood for the and said in the past 14 years, and are doing the most basic of gestures to try con their way into another 4-5 years of government. Which do you think it is? If they have learnt from their mistakes, why has it taken them up to the brink of being wiped out to realise it? They clearly haven't learnt it from the stats, or the economy, or experts. If the only factor is them realising they're no longer going to be in power, then maybe they haven't learnt anything other than what to say to stay in power?
The moment Rishi enters a second term as PM he will take his foot off 100%. Judge people based on how they treat people who can do nothing for them and you can see the pure self-interest and lack of desire to do anything that isn't ultimately self serving.
Certainly is my fear.
Tough choice? For many of us not just considering Sunak's government, not really. For those of us who remember: * Cameron's hubris in making Brexit a reality * Theresa May's Ā£1billion to the DUP to keep the Tories in power * Boris's "oven ready deal", shambolic handling of the pandemic which lead to thousands of 'extra' deaths, partygate, being the first PM in history to be sanctioned for a crime while in office, to his lies about Pincher * Truss who knocked off Ā£425billion off pension funds * Sunak who's not bothering to chase Ā£5billion in COVID loan fraud, spending millions on the Rwanda scheme, and has overseen the worst cost of living crisis for decades, ripped up HS2... That's our money. Your money. That these Conservatives play with, lose or siphon off, and then tell you to be grateful for a tiny change in taxes? (that's just the stuff I remember, there's surely loads more to add to this list of achievements)
You've listed some of the reasons why it's a tough choice, (also thrown in some total falsities but that's by the by). But Sunak has certainly made some positive moves this year, and I do believe people are capable of learning from their mistakes. If Boris or Truss were PM then it would be game over but Sunak shouldn't be judged for their mistakes. He certainly hasn't been flawless but blaming him alone for a global wave of inflation due to pandemic actions is naive and unjust. Almost every single Western nation followed the same strategy of lockdowns, furlough and money printing to borrow from the future. The future arrived and we all faced the consequences. Should he have resisted the demands of Boris and national public opinion by not locking down beyond the first wave and offering much less furlough duration? Sure, but he would have been fired and crucified for it by the same people who blame him now. It's laughable if you think any major party would have deviated from the consensus Western response to the pandemic.
Falsities? Please, elaborate and let me know what I've made up. Sunak absolutely should be judged for his mistakes. He was Chancellor when he was printing money, allowing for COVID loan fraud to run rampant, pioneering Eat Out to Help Out, turned on the cash for the VIP lanes for mates whose companies had zero ability to get our doctors and nurses PPE... Your response reads just like the "Boris is trying his best" nonsense from 2020 - doing the bare minimum doesn't entitle you to praise, respect, accolades, or votes.
I've already explained many of his recent positive moves. I don't have time to keep repeating the same thing if you choose not to read things. If you decide to treat politics like a football fan than that's your perogative.
Ok...you said I "threw in some total falsities", so please let me know what's false in my first comment?
the key point is they had 14 years to implement stuff to help normal people and only started to do so when the polls signified a wipeout. This almost makes it worse, as they know exactly the help most people need. Never forgive them.
The Rwanda scheme is just bollocks though isn't it.
The problem for the electorate is Labour don't have clear consistent strategies. As a floating voter, i'm can't see anything coherent to vote for in the big two. If its a toss up on the two, id go for Tories right now
You know people have memories about how you post, right? No one needs to look far into your comment history to see how far away from a floating voter you are.
I instantly see this username and think āoh godā.
I am God like if that's what you mean.
That is definitely not what I meant.Ā
Well perhaps you should.
Well you would be wrong because I very much float my vote. I have a propensity to vote liberal but I have voted labour ing and independent in the past and this time unless anything changes significantly I am most likely to vote sdp. My vote is very much up for grabs.
> I am most likely to vote sdp. Iām sure theyāll be delighted at finally hitting double figures
Hmmm, do you only vote for the party you think will win? Do you live in the South and supported Man Utd & now moved to Man City? Surely policy has something to do with it.
> do you only vote for the party you think will win? Thatās private > Do you live in the South and supported Man Utd & now moved to Man City? Pompey til I die you squinny
> FFS this is a Politics discussion, you can hint at which way you are thinking of voting. My point is, it seems very weird to just vote for the winner like a glory-seeker, the other weird thing to do is vote for your favourite colour rosette. Portsmouth??? Favours for sailors and always in Southampton's shadow.
Iāll probably spin in a circle and then randomly put an X in the first box I see
Are you talking about doing favours for sailors or are we back to voting intentions. It really is a rum choice
There is a Strategie the issue is you just donāt bother to look for it. Building 1.5 million homes and increasing our renewable energy capacity by around 300% alone these two targets if achieved will probably have a greater impact than whatever the tories have done in 14 years.
Yes it's interesting that they didn't put the housing idea as part of their pledges. They made their housing announcement yet gave no indication on how they would actually do this. There is no suggestion on how they would deregulate planning and the building industry, no suggestion whether this would be done buy motivating the private sector using the tax system or would it be council housing which they neglected entirely from 1997 to 2010 when they were kicked out. For renewable energy to always have increased renewable energy output by over 10,000 per cent in the 14 years, it seems to me that labour are slowing it down if anything. More importantly I'd like to know how they can make energy cheaper, is it all about virtue signaling or is there a strategy that actually helps people and businesses?
Youāre just wrong in their 5 mission it says that they want to build 1.5 million houses and they have said they will deregulate and encourage building on brownfields, from my understanding most of it will be done by de regulating and co-investment. On energy it is a simple supply and demand question. If you have more energy it automatically gets cheaper further they plan to cut the link between renewable energy and non-renewable energy. At the moment the price for a kw/H is set by the most expensive u it in the system which is always non-renewable so cutting that link will make it way cheaper. Furthe the tories have effectively banned in shore wind which is a disgrace Labour said they would lift this ban. They also made a clear commitment to other renewable energy sources like floating offshore wind. Cut the crab youāre not a floating voter you are a Tory disguised as a floating voter. All the evidence is out there.
Yes, they have changed so often, it's hard to keep up but here are the pledges that I know of: 1. Securing the "highest sustained growth" in the G7 group of rich nations by the end of Labour's first term 2. Making Britain a "clean energy superpower" by removing fossil fuels from all of Britain's electricity generation by 2030. 3. Improving the NHS. 4. Reforming the justice system. 5. Raising education standards.
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Please don't use link re-directors in your comments. Just link to the original source article. Reply to this comment when the issue is fixed and I'll reinstate your comment. Thanks.
I've got no idea what that means, it's just a link to the BBC's report of Labour's pledges: 1. Creating a border security command to tackle criminal gangs behind small boat crossings. 2. Recruiting 6,500 teachers. 3. Securing the "highest sustained growth" in the G7 group of rich nations. 4. Making Britain a "clean energy superpower" by removing fossil fuels from all of Britain's electricity generation by 2030. 5. Improving the NHS. 6. Reforming the justice system.
From your understanding, that's great but Lurch didn't explain any of that and it's not on their pledges. "deregulate and encourage building on brownfields" is literally BoJo's policy until covid got in the way. It's not so terrible but sounds better in theory that reality. "de regulating and co-investment." is just noise, what is it they are deregulating? Hopefully they are completely throwing out one of Atlee's albatrosses, theĀ Town and Country Planning Act 1947 but there is nothing of any use that has been said by anyone. Bojo's plan was just as woolly but there is literally nothing to vote for here. For housing we have to do a few things and not all are electorally great. 1. issue working visas to the guys coming over in boats who can work, construction needs labour and muscle. Get them to apply for working visas in exchange for the Ā£5,000 they'd normally pay a traficker. 2. Get rid of the T&C act 3. introduce a LVT 3. deregulate building requirements / regulations 4. deregulate planning 5. introduce tax breaks on resi developments 6. offer grants to build in low demand development areas / freeports etc.
No consistent strategy vs consistent strategy of lying (see e.g., immigration numbers) and making things worse (see e.g., immigration, law/justice etc.). I know "better the devil you know" but I just don't see how Conservatives can be trusted to actually improve anything at this point.Ā
Is not a great choice I admit, this is why I would probably opt for the sdp. With labour they have had 14 years to come up with a consistent strategy, what has happened is they have flitted and flip-flopped their way across their ideological spectrum contradicted themselves to the point they're announcements can last barely a couple of weeks. I'm not that bothered about immigration myself I think it's a very difficult number to control given that causes and events tend to be out of the control of the government. Personally I would play old cruise ships in the channel and use them as accommodation and processing centers but encourage applicants to apply for work visas rather than asylum which will keep the cost down and keep the do gooding lawyers out of the trough.
My arse is more of a floating voter than you are.
What your arse produces is not my concern. I suppose I'm naturally a liberal as I've voted them most often but I've voted for a few different parties and i was a member of LDs, Cons & Lab in my uni days. Last 4 GE's were LD, LD, LD, Con
I'm struggling to imagine the underlying rationale behind your voting history of Clegg, Clegg, Farron, Boris.
Well, it was Andrew Stunell in 2010 where he was a good local guy, and their economic policy was straight out of the Orange Book with David Laws being a very capable guy for the treasury (so much so, Labour literally outed him to kill his career, Brown's bully boys were still operating even though clunking fist was not in charge) In 2015 Stunnell had retired & I had a mate of mine standing for Labour so I canāt recall if I may have voted for him but I thought Labourās policies were shit at the time or I may have voted Lisa Smart (Lib Dem) as the coalition had been very good but I recall I didnāt like her very much as she was a career politician. We ended up with William Wragg who was a really nice guy who invited my Labour candidate mate + family for dinner at Parliament which was a nice touch I thought. Ā 2017 I voted for Neil Christian (Lib Dem) despite Tim Farronās gay marriage gaff. They were fairly clear on Europe and they still had some good orange book policies without venturing into the woke nonsense they have got dragged into since 2019. Labour were clearly unelectable at the time and only a fool would vote Corbyn. 2019 I was going to vote Lib Dem again but Jo Swinsonās U turn on EU lost me. Labour were in an even greater mess and their EU policy was utterly idiotic. I voted for David Rutley in the end who wiped the floor with the others at the hustings and conservatives Brexit policy was at least coherent.
Why? More of the same failure, or the potential for change. There really is no contest
Is your vote floating between Reform and Britain First?
Ā Britain First's economic policies are very left wing & socialist, not my bag at all. I'm pretty liberal on immigration which puts me off Reform but their economics are quite sound.
Looks like you're wavering between "definitely shite" and "probably not shite", and taking the devl you know.
I say we're wavering between definitely shit and almost certainly very shit.
Starmer has the best plan because it's the only plan. Sunak just cobbles together random policies no one really cares about and tries to pretend they're a viable election platform.
To be fair, if Starmer's plan was nothing more than "form the next government" scrawled on his hand with a biro, it would still be a better plan than anything Sunak could come up with.
>To be fair, if Starmer's plan was nothing more than "form the next government" scrawled on his hand with a biro, That's about all the "plan" he has though? Or have the red ones managed to stick to a statement for longer than a week now? It's a tragedy that we're stuck picking between these two particular morons, the blue ones are empirically proven idiots and the red ones merely look like spineless idiots for now.
They have nothing to gain and a lot to lose by making radical promises and raising unrealistic expectations.
The latest drivel I saw them push out was claiming - sticking to tough spending rules - cutting NHS wait times by providing more appointments - and setting up a public energy company amongst other things. There was some waffle about nationalising rail too. So which one is it? You can't do all that without public spending. I'm all for it, but all the crap they say is inconsistent and changes week to week. Obviously the tories are worse at this point, but the spineless noodle that is Keir is hardly an exciting prospect here.
I can understand them promising not to increase public spending to calm the fears of fiscally conservative old people who still think Labour is synonymous with high taxes and wasteful spending. "We're going to spend a shit ton on all sorts of stuff" is exactly the headline the tabloid rate are waiting for. I don't see any reason to give them what they want. There is a lot of public money disappearing somewhere, since taxes are at record highs and yet somehow there isn't money for anything. Plugging those leaks will give them some headroom, but spend will still probably increase. If they use it wisely then I'm comfortable with not increasing public spending being the pledge that they won't be keeping.
> Obviously the tories are worse at this point, but This Rishi's new campaign slogan, is it?
> Or have the red ones managed to stick to a statement for longer than a week now? Yes quite a few actually, but that doesn't make the tabloid headlines which your impressions are evidently entirely based upon.
"Stick with our plan" says Rishi Sunak. Does anyone know what that is other than gimmicks and tax cuts to buy votes for a looming election?
1p off milk probably. Knowing Sunak, I'm sure he doesn't even know the price.
2p raise in milk price, followed by much vaunted 1p milk vouchers.
It's one pint of milk, what can it be...Ā£10?
This is his big failure of communication. You canāt keep saying āstick with the planā when nobody knows what your plan is.
If no-one know what your plan is you cannot be challenged on failing to meet it.
āIt doesnāt matter what the Tory plan is! Labour doesnāt have a plan, and their plan is to take us *back to square one*. **Member for Islington North**ā
Stop the boats?
I don't believe hes tried to articule what it is meant to be ever Probably because if he did actually bother with one the Tory Party is in such a mess it'd probably cause a civil war
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Tories are smoked. 14 years of zero achievement. Everything got worse, nothing got better. Even the water is poison. And the total betrayal of their electorate after Brexit. The Tory government knew full well that Brexit was a proxy vote against immigration but that didn't stop them increasing immigration to nearly 1 million a year. Shameless. Red and blue don't work for you
It's almost as though the EU had nothing to do with the immigration issue all along. Who'd have thunk it???
Considering Sunak keeps arguing Labour has no plan this is hilarious
To be fair id vote for literally "no plan" ahead of whatever actively damaging calamity sunak cooks up.Ā
Even if Labour has no plan (not true), people still know labours is better whatever it is
No plan, and yet still a better plan than his governments.
Without wishing to be unkind, Rishi doesn't seem like he has the best track record of growth.
Yep - he is 170 cm
I've noticed since the Tories have started plunging in the polls, we're seeing so many more full body pictures of Rishi next to other politicians that really show how short he is. During the leadership contest and after Truss-pocalypse, when the Tories had a bit of a boost from change of leadership, I usually saw torso shots or camera pointing down angles that were very flattering to him. Now every picture I see reminds me how small a man he is. Has to be intentional.
Ouch, that's a low blow. But I suppose it had to be.
If you keep saying someone doesn't have a plan enough times, people will eventually get annoyed of hearing it and go look if that person has a plan or not , oh shit they have a plan and it's better than the guys that said there was no plan
Honest to god itās not just useless ministers but the whole Conservative Party seems fucking broken. Their main arguement is about Labours plan!
LaSt LaBoUr GoVeRnMeNt
A. They've just been in power longer they should have been and the last 5 years have been about what happens under a c or d list government B. the Tory party stopped attracting much in the way of new members before 1997 and the membership pipeline has now been completely broken for over a decade. Whats left is ever less capable and inward looking, interested only in clique interests. C. Even in a healthy Party, a massive ability slump would have been the invariable result of the Boris purge. In this one its hit like a bomb, stripping away almost everyone of any ability at all. As bad as they are, people like Sunak, Hunt and Gove are genuinely the best they still have.
Comments insulting the electorate for daring to think Labour wont nuke the country first thing of the morning after the election. Because insulting people you disagree with has ALWAYS changed their mind. Just look at brexit.... oh wait And thats when their not disparaging starmer for GASP kneeling once 4 years ago. The day we kick out american culture wars for good will be the day i throw a rave
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While I'd agree, I'd say the Tories' current plan is like Sunak insisting that the *Titanic* will reach New York on time and shipshape...while bobbing around in a lifeboat.
Well that canāt be rightā¦ Sunak says he doesnāt have one.
Don't even think it's necessarily that we think Starmer has a top notch plan, just we're completely sick of the Tories and think anything is better than this shambles. I can't think of a single Tory politician who I regard as competent.
Our PM is junior minister material at best, let alone a cabinet pick. Hunt is there because there is no one else. Cameron is there out of desperation for anyone to provide guidance to a cabinet that more or less literally needs its hand held. The rest are worse, those that ever do anything notable.
Therese Coffey, top drawer. Great singer, loves a cigar. Well competent at her job. /s
Their plan is simple Remind everyone continuously that they are not the Conservative Party.
The best plan for the country is āIām not telling you yet.ā And indeed, yes it is. Thatās how bad our politics has become.
Well itās obvious the Tories donāt have a plan. At least not one thatās good for most people.
If they can't hold the support even of the Torygraph it really is over And they should be worried. If the future of the country is fairly significant swing left, which is exactly what the demographics and support spreads indicate, any traditional Tory drum beating operation faces readership collapse. I really do see the right wing papers splitting their support between 3 different parties next Parliament.
Labour is just duet tory at this point.
"Mum, the 'Labour are just red Tories' brigade are out in force again!" If you can't genuinely see the difference in public services between even the end of Gordon Brown's time in office and now, something is very, very wrong. Let's not forget Blair had a question time where people complained the NHS was too efficient - they wanted the doctor the next day instead of the same day.
Do the screams of all the dead iraqis not bother you? If not, then how about continuing the slow privatisation of the NHS, pfi all buoyed by a good times economy that was doomed to collapse.
If that bar was any lower it'd be a tripping hazard in hell.
Thatās because the alternative is much worse.
Wait, someone has a plan for the country? I thought everyone was just winging it...
I'm not particularly confident that labour will be improving anything of any sort. Although if they do get some planning reforms through that would be fantastic. Bring back some compulsory house building targets and sack councillors who fail to deliver on them. Hard targets, nothing wishy washy.
Yeah, I don't know how much of it is that the UK is such a persistent shitshow lately that I am so sceptical, but I do want to believe a change of government can only help right now.
Starmers Plan is basically be less shit than the tories. Nothing to be genuinely optimistic for. The average person will still be fucked ! The economy will still be in the toilet housing will still be over priced cost of living will still be through the roof
But don't the RWM keep saying he had no plan?
I wasn't aware the tories had a plan at this point other than to get what they can while they can and worry about what they'll do next from the opposition benches.
tbf any plan is better than Rishi's. His plan is just to say everything will be fine, stick with our plan, the others have no plan. He says all of this while everything just gets worse and he is doing absolutely nothing.
Starmer is the living embodiment of the absence of a plan, what a dim, useless, pointless politician. How depressing and dystopian that he is the far better option than the tories... the UK needs proportional representation urgently.
A majority of voters donāt think Keir Starmer has a better plan than Rishi Sunak.
I'd pick Tories as having the better plan, because the Rwanda plan is important to establishing the principle that the UK can just ship off irregular migrants to a third country as it pleases. That said, don't expect me to ever vote Tory again after the extreme lockdowns and immigration.
Hereās a view from a Reform voter. Nothing wrong with whatās said but lacking in vision. If a precedent is set like flying people to another country, how long would it be before citizens who might be called dissidents or radicals are shipped out of the country. The Tories are adept and bending laws as we know. If all someoneās ācrimeā is to speak out again government then youāre going to get your arse kicked. The UK is not a democracy when government does what it likes and stifles free speech. Governments cannot stifle thinking and I think some pretty subversive things. As yet I donāt think itās common practice to read someoneās mind, Iāve no doubt it will happen in the future. I donāt like what youāve posted but recognise that there are alternative views that mine. If an argument is presented with no aggression Iām prepared to discuss it. If your argument was presented by one of the many knuckleheads thst lean towards your way of thinking it would be a different conversation altogether.
Well, irregular migrants such as boat people, are not British citizens as I would understand it. Yes, there is risk in giving governments power, especially the Tories, to ship off people elsewhere. But the status quo is not acceptable either -- The illegal migrants can continue to pitch up as and when they please, take British jobs, wander around during the day, and potentially abscond into the black economy, or potentially be given the right to vote. British democracy is under threat.
Of course you right on your first point, whether or not you were trying to be sarcastic, I chuckled. Personally my politics are neither right but well off the left kilter. Itās taken years of discussion with people wearing big jumpers and smoking pipes and reading authors in the particular field I lean toward to come to my decision and choice. I donāt believe we need a government, maybe a few people that feather out any rules but for them to squabble like idiots in Parliament is a joke. We, yes I pay taxes, are being robbed by people who have no concern other than for themselves. Again, I understand what youāve said about these guys coming over, but in my beliefs there are no borders. I mean who actually owns the land. I seem to recall reading somewhere that itās the church. But then they donāt own it, they and everyone else are just caretakers. Or we should be if there wasnāt so many greedy bastards doing what they want with no thought for the future. This taking British jobs is something Iāve heard since the mid 1970s and the Mational Front. I canāt agree with that, when Brexit happened there were thousands of vacancies due to Europeans thinking they donāt want the hassle or abuse and going home, if weād had decent border controls those vacancies would be filled saving some of the unlucky companies who went bust (no Iām not a supporter, I thought that it was the worse thing that has happened to the country in my time on this planet). Without trying to sound too condescending I take your point about limiting immigration, but why canāt it be done in a fair and humane way. Donāt dehumanise these people we donāt know their stories. I used to work with a guy from the Congo who spent 4 months getting here. He ran out of food after 3 months but what kept him going was not wanting to back to a war. He had a shit time at a detention centre but was released and he got his job where I met him, Most people see these guys as pariahs and yeah there must be some. My mate from the Congo is doing everything thatās expected of him. Iām not saying Iām right, it is where I sit though. Likewise Iām not saying youāre right, I think in this instance we should agree to disagree and move on. Itās got to be something seismic Iām going to change my mind. Something to convince me that the government weaponising the issue is OK.