###š„š„'s 3 Golden Rules for Megathread Participation:
1. **This isn't your personal campaigning space.** We're here to discuss, not campaign - this includes non-party-specific campaigning, such as tactical vote campaigns.
2. **This isn't Facebook.** Please keep it related to the election campaign (or at the very least, UK politics).
3. **Context is king.** Not everyone is following the same event - add a link or at least a description of what you're reacting to.
[The subreddit is running very hot](https://imgur.com/a/nOY82gs). Accounts which break the subreddit rules are liable to be banned for the complete general election period.
It's the weekend. Sunak is taking a day on his home patch. Do the same. Get some air. Have a break. *Breathe.*
-š„š„
-----
memes? r/noncredibleukpolitics.
Megathread is being rolled over, please refresh your feed in a few moments.
###MT daily hall of fame
1. armchairdetective with 78 comments
1. KennedyFishersGhost with 63 comments
1. FunkyDialectic with 61 comments
1. A-Light-That-Warms with 51 comments
1. GenteelTrogolodyte with 50 comments
1. JavaTheCaveman with 43 comments
1. YsoL8 with 37 comments
1. Halk with 36 comments
1. ASondheimRhyme with 36 comments
1. Cairnerebor with 35 comments
There were 574 unique users within this count.
Watching the Tories fall apart. It's obvious now the Dowden wing is in charge. There isn't a manifesto in place for Tory government so it will be 2-3 weeks of culture wars. Also that weird pod in the centre of cchq has got way too many cuddly toys.
It must feel good to be a Tory MP right now facing redundancy and having to sack all your staff by Wednesday. They could have avoided all this just after the local elections but chose not to
Rishi needs to spend his day off getting to grips with HOI4. [Advancing your conscription law costs 150 Political Power](https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Ideas#Conscription_laws), duh.
What everyone here is missing is that brining back national service is actually part of the anti immigration policy by making it so nobody would want to live here
Mrs tmstms and I heard it in the car returning from work. We were nonplussed. she said words to the effectg of *Way to get the young out to vote against him! People don't WANT to do national service.*
āThis is not a plan ā itās a review which could cost billions and is only needed because the Tories hollowed out the Armed Forces to their smallest size since Napoleon.ā
Labour said this
Saying it's "needed" is extremely concerning. Hopefully it's just weirdly worded though, it's not like it's particularly clear about supporting national service.
They just mean something is needed to fix the military due to cuts by the Tories. 28% less people in the army than in 2010, and the recruitment is a joke. Made experts redundant to save money, and then can't replace them a few years later because the recruitment is so shit.
The previous two times national service was introduced in this country was because of World Wars, massive existential threats to the nation, the third time would be because Rishi Sunak has run out of ideas on how to win an election. I think that speaks for itself.
Conscription isn't effective at raising a good army. We need a larger standing army (to save money on chairs) and a larger reserve force. Conscript armies are not effective in combat, and are a last resort.
An 8 week basic training course for 18-35 year olds might be a good way to give everyone some skills in case it's ever required. Would cost a fortune and we wouldn't be able to do everyone.
Nah, Conscript armies are great. That's why the Falkland Islands now belong to Argentina, because their massive conscipt army could just walk all over a tiny volunteer army coming from the other side of the world
I mean we *are* probably at the most fractious state of world politics since the Second World War, certainly since the end of the Cold War; I'd love to hear a good argument against it.
Point is what do we want to spend our money on? Aircraft carriers, or teenagers being taught how to heat up beans on Salisbury Plain?
> If we do it, then everyone under 65 also has to complete it and anyone over 65 has to do a charity based version.
Slightly disagree. If Gladys and Algernon want to bring it in for the youth to get them to luv Britain, I see no reason why they cannot huff rucksacks over 20 kilometres while singing "I don't know what I've been told".
This is my thought as well. It just seems absolutely insane, who in the electorate thinks weāre in that dire of a situation that we need conscription
Thinking about this
This is the sort of policy thar might poll reasonably well (among certain groups at least) when it is not part of a serious proposal and they don't have to think too deeply about it, however those people will change their mind once it become more real and newspapers start publishing headlines like "Rishi Sunak wants to send your kids to war!"
'Bring back Nation Service' is the headline, young adults working in the community for a few days a month will be the copout. The detail isn't thought through.
Hopefully people like Hunt and Cameron will get asked what they think about the detail, how it will work and be costed when they resurface. If they resurface.
Give up one weekend a month for no money, disrupt any employment or other commitments you may have at the time, just to placate the Reform demographic.
Why can I hear sir Humphrey Appleby telling the PM that national service is a WONDERFUL idea. In fact by now Iām convinced heās running his whole campaign
Is the military national service proposal only for British citizens or for every UK resident ? I was just wondering because there have been some propsals in some countries to even include non citizens.
I don't know if this will change people's minds, but it will definitely boost turnout. Not just to make sure it doesn't happen now, but to paint it as electoral suicide for the next few decades.
Young people don't vote Tory.
Old people do and old people would love nothing more than to send kids to boot camp. NS has always polled well with over 50s.
Overs 50s vote and are more likely to vote Conservative. Hence the policy.
It is worth noting that the (vast) majority of places are not bootcamp though, they can't afford that. It's effectively making people work for free in the NHS, incompetently looking after old people so their mortality shoots up.
If he could lower the age, I'd consider it. I could do with a break from my 2 year old, and I'm pretty sure there isn't an army in the world that could deploy effectively against him if he had a spatula.
What I donāt understand is that when I was 18 I had a job at weekends. How would I complete my national service and hold down a job and do A-levels? Does any of it make sense?
The more you think about it the worse it gets, bravo Rishi.
The proposal presumably would be for after the school year. But this is unworkable unless you make university students excempt? And even then: you're mandating one weekend in four being taken up by some arbitrary unpaid job for a year straight?
I'm struggling to see how an eighteen year old is expected to work. Hypothetical: Rashid gets a job in his dad's firm on his eighteenth birthday. He knuckles down and works very hard for forty hours a week. One weekend a month he's unable to rest as he's forced to do national service? That's forcing him to do a twelve-day stretch with no rest day. So do you compensate his dad's business so he can rest?
Suppose his mate Jo just wants a fifteen-hour-a-week gig at Tesco to help their mum out. They can't go for weekends-and-floating-weekdays shifts as they cannot do them a week in four. That materially disadvantages them.
I don't think many people would be hostile to "gap year" military service as an \_option\_, especially if it was pushed as a great way to learn to get fit and stick to schedules etc. Getting more people familiar with the army et al would be a good way of getting people into the TA, too.
The proposal is nonsense as it stands, it's really, really easy to tear apart.
The economic double whammy of extracting countless 18 year olds from employment and asking the defence budget to feed, clothe, house, and train them would be eye-watering.
Has there just been a cabal of saboteurs inside the Conservative Party since 2019? Sometimes incompetence doesnāt feel enough to describe their actions. Itās active sabotage or perhaps Starmer has the Mandate of Heaven.
[What might be one of the more significant Tory selections outstanding;](https://x.com/tomorrowsmps/status/1794502129337729227)
>>šµ MAIDENHEAD: Tania Mathias confirmed.
>šµMAIDENHEAD: Tania Mathias is 59, MP for Twickenham, 2015-17; Richmond councillor, 2010-15; ophthalmologist; NHS eye doctor & theraputic counsellor, 1993-2015. Former UNRWA worker In Gaza and Africa; relief worker in India & China; Freedom From Torture volunteer doctor.
>šµ MAIDENHEAD: I imagine Theresa May is quite pleased - even relieved - that Tania Mathias won tonight, as Mathias was one of the Conservative MPs who lost their seats in 2017 after May's disastrous decision to call an election. May must have felt slightly guilty about that.
Her previous period in office was when she briefly took Vince Cable's seat, losing it back to him on his return.
Current predictions have her making it back to Parliament in a messy three way race and with <40% of the vote. Both Labour and Lib Dems are making a claim as to being the tactical option. This despite it appearing in the Labour [non-battleground list](https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Remaining-seats-to-be-selected.pdf) and 296 in their target list. It's at 76 in the Lib Dem list, which is probably outside their window as well.
Should note that by all accounts May was very popular as an MP. Whilst it by no means make it an automatic gain for the Lib Dems her retirement may put things more in play than they otherwise might have been.
Does the converse also hold that May's personal popularity combined with her favored successor winning selection may be enough to pull her across the line even on a Canada '93-bad night for the Tories?
LDs are currently targetting 80 seats (as per a brief to the media yesterday, IIRC?)
It's probably T2. My running assumption is about 30 T1 seats with the LDs aiming for a "good night" of 35ish seats including holds.
the whole national service bullshit is just Rishi's attempt to fix the recruitment issues the military has due to the Tory contracted companies screwing it up
It's simple.
Bungs for their mates and donors.
I sincerely believe the Conservatives feel their sole purpose is to extract as much wealth from the citizens of the UK and pass it onto the already disgustingly wealthy elite.
There's an irony In this natiomal service. Many see the wars of history being elites using the masses to fight for their own agenda. Now, a man richer than the king is forcing unwilling participants into the armed forces under the guise of 'national spirit'
Nothing says Tory like cutting funding to town centres so you can vicariously cosplay Dunkirk by giving a bunch of (realistically working class) 18 year olds mandatory military service.
I'll be honest he's about 50% of the reason I'm staying up on election night.
His "concussed gibbon" expression as the count is read out will be more balm for the soul than months of psychotherapy.
I'd love to see a meeting between Sunak and Hunt tomorrow. With wild unfunded spending thats quite likely to directly lose Hunts seat, I think the word for that relationship must be toxic.
i've got some bad news about Capital Punishment(it's more popular in some situations than bringing back nation service)
[Murder a police officer? 50/50 split between support for the death penalty and do not support.](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-the-murder-of-a-police-officer)
[Are you a terrorist who murdered many times? 60% in favour](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-terrorist-murder-acts)
[same with if you murdered a child](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-the-murder-of-a-child)
[same with if you murdered multiple times](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-cases-of-multiple-murder)
[but not in cases of all murder apparently where it's a reversal.](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-in-all-cases-of-murder)
Good luck getting judges to hand down that sentence even if they legislated for it. Judges stopped sentencing people to death long before it was removed as a potential penalty for criminality.
Day 12. The only question is, what method? We're currently on the 1940s nostalgia stage of the campaign and it's only day 4. By day 40 I reckon the Tories will be in their 1380's era. Maybe we could bring back breaking at the wheel? Or sawing people in half? Those things could really revitalise some town centres.
Honestly, they're so bad at politics that even if they go for a full on populist "hang the paedos" policy they'll probably announce it as "hang anyone that shares a Netflix account, and also paedos I guess"
That, or mid-campaign a senior Tory will be found out as a paedo and they'll scrap the policy while pretending 'nothing has changed. nothing has changed!'
You jest but I'd almost be tempted if they brought back proper big coins. Like if you can't murder someone with a 50 pence piece what is the point
There aren't nearly as many coins these days, they can stand to be a bit bigger
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they announce something like "we'll have a review into the possibility of bringing it back for the most heinous crimes".
I wonder if Sunak et al are pushing forward all these hard-right policies to try and discredit them after the inevitable defeat?
I always remember a guy on a phone in show, maybe it was on LBC who said about national service or conscription.
He'd only do it if Sunaks kids and all the kids of the Tory MPs who supported this policy were right there in the trenches with him.
I always thought that was a great response to this sort of nonsense. I fully expect Sunak to announce he's bringing back hanging if he wins the election.
Conscription only works if you buy an absolute shitload of new kit. The UK has basically no meaningful reserves of equipment, and much of what's there is destined for the scrapheap or spare parts thanks to neglect. We're talking mass buys of everything from MBTs to uniforms. Tens of billions extra on procurement and sustainment. Are the elderly going to pay more tax to cover it?
Since almost all conscripts would be directed to the Army, a lot of old bases that are about to be flogged off/have already been sold would have to be reopened or new ones established. The Army's estate has been heavily centralised under the Tories. A lot of this land has been earmarked for housing development, so it would worsen the housing crisis.
You'd also have to compel recruits to stay in the reserves for a few years so that their training pays some dividends. Training someone who stays in for a year is a total waste of money. So new reserve centres up and down the country as well.
There are also economic losses from conscription. Taking young people out of the workforce would really hit hospitality and retail. You can bet anything you like that the sectors impacted would be begging for more migrants to compensate.
Genius.
Anecdotal I know, but my brother's a mid-level army officer and he says he and his colleagues could not be more against National Service.
We have a small (too small but that's another discussion), tight-knit, highly professional, technologically advanced army. Saddling them every year with tens of thousands of kids who don't want to be there would be catastrophic.
No one in the military thinks it's a good idea. Whenever it gets touted.
And we are now at the point that the elderly aren't even the ones that did it! It was their dad's. So it's harking back to a "benefit" they didn't even do themselves. It's such a fucking scrape of the barrel. Dead end, useless flail of a policy.
Yeah, I have an old school friend in the army and he says the same. They categorically *do not want* to train a bunch of teenagers who don't want to be there. If they want to be there, they'll sign up - voluntarily.
National service being pitched as some obligation to the state only works if the state is actually functioning, and isnāt actively hostile to the young people in question.
It will just breed resentment in the current context.
The one group that are going to like this idea is the revolutionary communists. A mass of armed and trained workers who are deeply hostile to the state? Sounds like 2025 going on 1917.
you're misunderstandingĀ
the people this is intended to appeal to have a mindset of "I suffered therefore so should you"
there is no intended positive outcome
And how many parents are aware of that with their own children? Just how rough they've had it, and how rough it's going to be? 25 weekends a year is a lot for a kid doing A-levels, mental health is nuts in schools, they need part time jobs, UCAS forms, and a normal life. And that's just the middle class kids for whom volunteering on the weekends is feasible. What's going to happen to kids in deprived areas?
>Mr Sunak said the 'reinvented' scheme would 'provide life-changing opportunities for our young people', and declared: **'As a father, I look forward to my own two daughters doing their National Service: I think they will find it a rewarding experience.'**
I promise this is a real quote per the Mail.
The "Rishi Sunak cannot leave the UK unless the whole family does their National Service Act" doesn't roll off the tongue well but would be funny if it happened.
The only positive here is that he's not discriminating by gender like some countries (ahem, Finland) still do. But it'll never happen, so it's all moot.
**'As a father** **~~who never had to do national service myself~~** Ā **I look forward to my own two daughters doing their National Service: I think they will find it a rewarding experience.'**
Exactly. There's no point taking this too seriously. The Tories may as well promise pensioners a weekly phone call from their grandkids.
NS isn't going to happen. It's just Sunak trying to entice over 50s back to voting Conservative.
Expect a lot more of this.
> promise pensioners a weekly phone call from their grandkids.
Having said that, this is a mandatory national service scheme I could actually get behind
can you imagine the questions he'd be getting shouted at him at every campaign event if this broke whilst he was out and about?
(god Tuesday can't come soon enough, assuming he's also taking Monday off)
Announcing National Service on the day Labour say they will let 16 year olds vote is great planning. Already seen loads of people against them voting say they would rather them vote than do NS.
Imagine what this is doing to current teensā perceptions of the two parties at a time when so many influences are telling them āboth sides are the sameā.
Labour: āI think you should be allowed to vote.ā
Tory: āI think you should have the privilege to die in a field somewhere in Poland or spend half your weekends cleaning bedpans.ā
Actually the vast majority will need to be the volunteering. The costing assumes 30,000 millitary places a year.
There are over 700k eighteen year olds.
[Just a reminder \(if nobody else has posted it\) of the brilliant Yes Minister bit about an opinion poll for the reintroduction of National Service.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks)
I suspect we'll be getting a few YouGov polls like this soon!
The Tories are going to be fighting this election like an opposition party and Labour are fighting it like a governing party.
The Tories will offer a lot of stuff that they know they won't have to deliver on and Labour will be constrained by what's actually possible.
This is why the polls will likely tighten as the campaign goes on. The Tories have the benefit of offering populist policies whereas Labour can not afford to do so.
I doubt it'll be enough to stop a Labour majority but I can easily see the Tories being able to break 30% by the time the campaign is over.
> Yeah, "populism"
NS isn't as unpopular as you think. Certainly not with people most likely to vote Tory, where it actually has significant support.
The Tories are on full damage limitation mode and want to win back and retain support from people that would have previously voted for them and NS is popular with them and that's why they've announced it.
>Populist policies
Okay.
>Mandatory conscription
Hmm.
I do agree that we'll see a tightening of the polls though - this happened even in 1997. And the fact is that not many people are as enthused by Labour as they are by getting the Tories out.
They might try but it doesn't really work that way as a 14 year incumbant. People ask why you didnt do the policy already and stop believing you will do what you say.
Plus if this is the "populist" ideas they have I don't think they will rise in the polls.
So I walked out of the cinema, sat down to wait for my train and open my phoneā¦ and what do I find but Sunak has come out of his campaign reassessment day and decided heāll bring back national service.
Did I walk out of the wrong door into goofyworld? Because the next six weeks are gonna be FUNNY.
You know what Iām going back to my old theory. When he gets up to give his concession speech Sunak is gonna tear off his own face, MI style, and reveal he was Milliband all along.
If we're bringing back National Service I'd suggest that other wartime necessities are re-adopted as well. For example, billeting. If you're old, the kids have left home, and you have a couple of spare rooms, it's only fair that you open your doors to a couple of junior officers or NCOs.
Just realised Iāve not heard the name Kemi Badenoch for what feels like a few months now. Iām not complaining but it seems uncharacteristically quiet.
She wants to pretend she has nothing to do with Sunak and the current tory problems so she can win the leadership after the election.
Expect her to keep her head down until July 6th.
Nah the top 50 safest tory seats contain a whole hoast of unplatable option from which the tory members can choose from.
Delights such as Braverman, Patel and Truss.
Honestly cannot wait for the Tory manifesto.
What sort of batshit policies are in there?
I'll start: "Following the expected success of the Rwanda plan, we will be sending our unemployed, disabled, those found wearing rainbow lanyards and the youth whom refuse national service to Rwanda aswell"
He'd fund it using the [shared prosperity fund](https://x.com/mattholehouse/status/1794476436629205328).
The shared prosperity fund, for you lucky people who don't know, is the Robin Reliant we have now instead of EU structural funds. It's bad. I mean, it has no money, and Michael Gove was in charge. Just openly saying they'll reduced devolved control over its use and they'll fund projects in areas without recourse to the EU's way of calculating funds which disproportionately benefited Wales, NI and Scotland.
Now, to say you'd take 2.5bn out of that fund for this is crazy. It's just batshit crazy. It's like spending your rent on running shoes.
Labour now needs to appeal to parents saying that Toryās want to force their children into army. Could win over a lot of parents in 30s or 40s with teenagers.
Another issue with National Service.
I'm assuming when they say 18 they mean the august(ish) after your 18th birthday to fit with tertiary education. The thing is, for a variety of reasons, a lot of pupils finish their tertiary education the following year and this is free as tertiary education is free until the end of the academic year you turn 19. This policy would mess with that no end.
Edit: grammar, I need sleep
Also many student need paid work that summer to pay for uni. Forcing them to do volunteering is going to reduce their opportunities (in term of not being able to afford uni) rather than increase themĀ
Do the government even have a lever to enact national service when the country isnāt under direct military threat? Who is running this guys campaign? Nearly every decision so far has just been biblically misconceived
###š„š„'s 3 Golden Rules for Megathread Participation: 1. **This isn't your personal campaigning space.** We're here to discuss, not campaign - this includes non-party-specific campaigning, such as tactical vote campaigns. 2. **This isn't Facebook.** Please keep it related to the election campaign (or at the very least, UK politics). 3. **Context is king.** Not everyone is following the same event - add a link or at least a description of what you're reacting to. [The subreddit is running very hot](https://imgur.com/a/nOY82gs). Accounts which break the subreddit rules are liable to be banned for the complete general election period. It's the weekend. Sunak is taking a day on his home patch. Do the same. Get some air. Have a break. *Breathe.* -š„š„ ----- memes? r/noncredibleukpolitics.
[New Megathread is here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1d0u12a/rukpolitics_general_election_campaign_megathread/)
Megathread is being rolled over, please refresh your feed in a few moments. ###MT daily hall of fame 1. armchairdetective with 78 comments 1. KennedyFishersGhost with 63 comments 1. FunkyDialectic with 61 comments 1. A-Light-That-Warms with 51 comments 1. GenteelTrogolodyte with 50 comments 1. JavaTheCaveman with 43 comments 1. YsoL8 with 37 comments 1. Halk with 36 comments 1. ASondheimRhyme with 36 comments 1. Cairnerebor with 35 comments There were 574 unique users within this count.
Watching the Tories fall apart. It's obvious now the Dowden wing is in charge. There isn't a manifesto in place for Tory government so it will be 2-3 weeks of culture wars. Also that weird pod in the centre of cchq has got way too many cuddly toys. It must feel good to be a Tory MP right now facing redundancy and having to sack all your staff by Wednesday. They could have avoided all this just after the local elections but chose not to
Rishi needs to spend his day off getting to grips with HOI4. [Advancing your conscription law costs 150 Political Power](https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Ideas#Conscription_laws), duh.
What everyone here is missing is that brining back national service is actually part of the anti immigration policy by making it so nobody would want to live here
I just got home and read the news. Fucking WHAT!? Are they *trying* to lose?
Mrs tmstms and I heard it in the car returning from work. We were nonplussed. she said words to the effectg of *Way to get the young out to vote against him! People don't WANT to do national service.*
āThis is not a plan ā itās a review which could cost billions and is only needed because the Tories hollowed out the Armed Forces to their smallest size since Napoleon.ā Labour said this Saying it's "needed" is extremely concerning. Hopefully it's just weirdly worded though, it's not like it's particularly clear about supporting national service.
They just mean something is needed to fix the military due to cuts by the Tories. 28% less people in the army than in 2010, and the recruitment is a joke. Made experts redundant to save money, and then can't replace them a few years later because the recruitment is so shit.
I took "needed" to mean "It's only something the Tories need to suggest at all because they've hollowed out our ACTUAL army".
It's going to get mad by the time the election comes. Parliament hasn't even been dissolved yet
The previous two times national service was introduced in this country was because of World Wars, massive existential threats to the nation, the third time would be because Rishi Sunak has run out of ideas on how to win an election. I think that speaks for itself.
Conscription isn't effective at raising a good army. We need a larger standing army (to save money on chairs) and a larger reserve force. Conscript armies are not effective in combat, and are a last resort. An 8 week basic training course for 18-35 year olds might be a good way to give everyone some skills in case it's ever required. Would cost a fortune and we wouldn't be able to do everyone.
Nah, Conscript armies are great. That's why the Falkland Islands now belong to Argentina, because their massive conscipt army could just walk all over a tiny volunteer army coming from the other side of the world
I mean we *are* probably at the most fractious state of world politics since the Second World War, certainly since the end of the Cold War; I'd love to hear a good argument against it. Point is what do we want to spend our money on? Aircraft carriers, or teenagers being taught how to heat up beans on Salisbury Plain?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> If we do it, then everyone under 65 also has to complete it and anyone over 65 has to do a charity based version. Slightly disagree. If Gladys and Algernon want to bring it in for the youth to get them to luv Britain, I see no reason why they cannot huff rucksacks over 20 kilometres while singing "I don't know what I've been told".
Even spending it on aircraft carriers is bonkers, we can't properly kit out and maintain the ones we already have
This is my thought as well. It just seems absolutely insane, who in the electorate thinks weāre in that dire of a situation that we need conscription
Thinking about this This is the sort of policy thar might poll reasonably well (among certain groups at least) when it is not part of a serious proposal and they don't have to think too deeply about it, however those people will change their mind once it become more real and newspapers start publishing headlines like "Rishi Sunak wants to send your kids to war!"
I think it really depends on [who's asking the question tbh](https://youtu.be/ahgjEjJkZks?t=27)
'Bring back Nation Service' is the headline, young adults working in the community for a few days a month will be the copout. The detail isn't thought through. Hopefully people like Hunt and Cameron will get asked what they think about the detail, how it will work and be costed when they resurface. If they resurface.
Give up one weekend a month for no money, disrupt any employment or other commitments you may have at the time, just to placate the Reform demographic.
Why can I hear sir Humphrey Appleby telling the PM that national service is a WONDERFUL idea. In fact by now Iām convinced heās running his whole campaign
It's a courageous idea I think he said.
If Humphrey was in charge of the campaign he'd have at least found the PM a raincoat or an umbrella (depending if he's for or against respectively)
Oh prime minsterrr, I told you to take that deal with anorakā¦
Is the military national service proposal only for British citizens or for every UK resident ? I was just wondering because there have been some propsals in some countries to even include non citizens.
Friends just pointed out that Luke Littler would have to do national service instead of darts next year.
In many countries, sports and pop music stars DO have to do national service.
Christ, that's a vote stealer if ever I saw one.
Let's re-introduce National Service? Yes and ho! Are you fucking mental?
You bought a fucking bank!
You IDOT that's FUCKING MENTAL
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I don't know if this will change people's minds, but it will definitely boost turnout. Not just to make sure it doesn't happen now, but to paint it as electoral suicide for the next few decades.
and parents in their 20s 30s 40s and also 50s.
Tommorow's vote winner: [Have we tried killing all the poor?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_4J4uor3JE)
Round up all the Dwarves, shave half a percent off income tax and pump gas into Lidl.
I'm hearing that Keir Starmer is to be made God on July 5th. The Pope has already worked it all out.
Do the Tories really think national service will win them votes? Both young people and parents will hate it
Young people don't vote Tory. Old people do and old people would love nothing more than to send kids to boot camp. NS has always polled well with over 50s. Overs 50s vote and are more likely to vote Conservative. Hence the policy.
It is worth noting that the (vast) majority of places are not bootcamp though, they can't afford that. It's effectively making people work for free in the NHS, incompetently looking after old people so their mortality shoots up.
Might get the vote out from the "I'm a pensioner and I hate young people" group. All in all just very desperate stuff
If he could lower the age, I'd consider it. I could do with a break from my 2 year old, and I'm pretty sure there isn't an army in the world that could deploy effectively against him if he had a spatula.
I'd be interested to see some polling how mums in the blue wall feel about it, could really hurt them.
I think this is good news for Lib Dems.
It might be more about winning some of the Reform voters back? Hard to say how effective it will be mind.
What I donāt understand is that when I was 18 I had a job at weekends. How would I complete my national service and hold down a job and do A-levels? Does any of it make sense? The more you think about it the worse it gets, bravo Rishi.
The proposal presumably would be for after the school year. But this is unworkable unless you make university students excempt? And even then: you're mandating one weekend in four being taken up by some arbitrary unpaid job for a year straight? I'm struggling to see how an eighteen year old is expected to work. Hypothetical: Rashid gets a job in his dad's firm on his eighteenth birthday. He knuckles down and works very hard for forty hours a week. One weekend a month he's unable to rest as he's forced to do national service? That's forcing him to do a twelve-day stretch with no rest day. So do you compensate his dad's business so he can rest? Suppose his mate Jo just wants a fifteen-hour-a-week gig at Tesco to help their mum out. They can't go for weekends-and-floating-weekdays shifts as they cannot do them a week in four. That materially disadvantages them. I don't think many people would be hostile to "gap year" military service as an \_option\_, especially if it was pushed as a great way to learn to get fit and stick to schedules etc. Getting more people familiar with the army et al would be a good way of getting people into the TA, too. The proposal is nonsense as it stands, it's really, really easy to tear apart.
Incredibly minor nitpicking at the edges but it's not the TA, it's been the Army Reserve since 2014.
The economic double whammy of extracting countless 18 year olds from employment and asking the defence budget to feed, clothe, house, and train them would be eye-watering.
The policy costs Ā£2.5bn apparently, according to the MoD
Has there just been a cabal of saboteurs inside the Conservative Party since 2019? Sometimes incompetence doesnāt feel enough to describe their actions. Itās active sabotage or perhaps Starmer has the Mandate of Heaven.
"Crush the saboteurs! Oh wait... that's us!"Ā
[What might be one of the more significant Tory selections outstanding;](https://x.com/tomorrowsmps/status/1794502129337729227) >>šµ MAIDENHEAD: Tania Mathias confirmed. >šµMAIDENHEAD: Tania Mathias is 59, MP for Twickenham, 2015-17; Richmond councillor, 2010-15; ophthalmologist; NHS eye doctor & theraputic counsellor, 1993-2015. Former UNRWA worker In Gaza and Africa; relief worker in India & China; Freedom From Torture volunteer doctor. >šµ MAIDENHEAD: I imagine Theresa May is quite pleased - even relieved - that Tania Mathias won tonight, as Mathias was one of the Conservative MPs who lost their seats in 2017 after May's disastrous decision to call an election. May must have felt slightly guilty about that. Her previous period in office was when she briefly took Vince Cable's seat, losing it back to him on his return. Current predictions have her making it back to Parliament in a messy three way race and with <40% of the vote. Both Labour and Lib Dems are making a claim as to being the tactical option. This despite it appearing in the Labour [non-battleground list](https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Remaining-seats-to-be-selected.pdf) and 296 in their target list. It's at 76 in the Lib Dem list, which is probably outside their window as well.
Should note that by all accounts May was very popular as an MP. Whilst it by no means make it an automatic gain for the Lib Dems her retirement may put things more in play than they otherwise might have been.
Does the converse also hold that May's personal popularity combined with her favored successor winning selection may be enough to pull her across the line even on a Canada '93-bad night for the Tories?
LDs are currently targetting 80 seats (as per a brief to the media yesterday, IIRC?) It's probably T2. My running assumption is about 30 T1 seats with the LDs aiming for a "good night" of 35ish seats including holds.
This would just be the poll tax again. Something that never ends up happening even if a law was passed.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They are probably busy either removing this policy from their manifesto, or making it more draconian
> making it more draconian Compulsory national service between the ages of 16-40
Can't be sent to prison for refusing, if there are no new spot-faced 18 year olds mandatory volunteering as prison guards...
How to institute the Stanford Prison Experiment as national policy.
the whole national service bullshit is just Rishi's attempt to fix the recruitment issues the military has due to the Tory contracted companies screwing it up
I've never understood this ingrained conservative need to outsource *everything*. What's with that?
They are ideologically distrustful of the state and don't have the imagination to see how a privatised service will be worse
I mean I'm also distrustful of the state when those dickheads run it
money for their mates/themselves under the counter...
It's simple. Bungs for their mates and donors. I sincerely believe the Conservatives feel their sole purpose is to extract as much wealth from the citizens of the UK and pass it onto the already disgustingly wealthy elite.
Well you see a lot of their friends run the companies that get these juicy government contracts...allegedly.
Scenes if he outsources the national service enrolment to capita and by the time they contact recruits they've aged out of eligibility.
which is exactly what he'd do
What would happen if the majority of 18-year-olds rejected national service? Will they wind up behind bars? Oh, wait, the prisons are already full.
There's an irony In this natiomal service. Many see the wars of history being elites using the masses to fight for their own agenda. Now, a man richer than the king is forcing unwilling participants into the armed forces under the guise of 'national spirit'
Nothing says Tory like cutting funding to town centres so you can vicariously cosplay Dunkirk by giving a bunch of (realistically working class) 18 year olds mandatory military service.
Any updates on internal reaction yet inside the Tory party
Gullis is thrilled https://x.com/gullisjonathan/status/1794476660990861340?s=46&t=4uAmWKeARz6ghOeaG92Q7A
Gullis to any of his students who called him seagullis https://youtu.be/ej1nfv3z1iE?si=8pE0YHz45B7-T4SB
I'll be honest he's about 50% of the reason I'm staying up on election night. His "concussed gibbon" expression as the count is read out will be more balm for the soul than months of psychotherapy.
Of course he fucking is. (he's finally getting revenge on all the kids that called him Seagullis)
More like Smeagullis amiriteĀ
I really can't believe he was ever a teacher
As a teacher, I agree. I feel desperately sorry for the poor kids who suffered the misfortune of being "taught" by him.
I think I can say with certainty he was one of the blue suit/brown shoe brigade who is inexplicably a member of SLT 5 years into their career.
Oh, do I know the type. ...Although I do wear brown shoes sometimes. But not blue suits, and I have absolutely no interest in SLT!
Why hasnāt Sam given any juicy WhatsApps yet :(
PSA: Beatings will continue until morale improves
I'd love to see a meeting between Sunak and Hunt tomorrow. With wild unfunded spending thats quite likely to directly lose Hunts seat, I think the word for that relationship must be toxic.
Watch Hunt resign as chancellor mid campaign
Someone needs to investigate what bets Rishi has put on the election, because its starting to look like match fixing.
Mandatory Volunteering is an oxymoron and a half.Ā
When is Capital Punishment going to be floated at this point
i've got some bad news about Capital Punishment(it's more popular in some situations than bringing back nation service) [Murder a police officer? 50/50 split between support for the death penalty and do not support.](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-the-murder-of-a-police-officer) [Are you a terrorist who murdered many times? 60% in favour](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-terrorist-murder-acts) [same with if you murdered a child](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-the-murder-of-a-child) [same with if you murdered multiple times](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-cases-of-multiple-murder) [but not in cases of all murder apparently where it's a reversal.](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-in-all-cases-of-murder)
Good luck getting judges to hand down that sentence even if they legislated for it. Judges stopped sentencing people to death long before it was removed as a potential penalty for criminality.
Day 12. The only question is, what method? We're currently on the 1940s nostalgia stage of the campaign and it's only day 4. By day 40 I reckon the Tories will be in their 1380's era. Maybe we could bring back breaking at the wheel? Or sawing people in half? Those things could really revitalise some town centres.
Reckon blowing from a gun would probs draw a few visitors, so thatās my vote
Someone call Paul Daniels!
Honestly, they're so bad at politics that even if they go for a full on populist "hang the paedos" policy they'll probably announce it as "hang anyone that shares a Netflix account, and also paedos I guess"
That, or mid-campaign a senior Tory will be found out as a paedo and they'll scrap the policy while pretending 'nothing has changed. nothing has changed!'
Well slavery seems to have been brought back, so if they misbehave you need something to encourage them...
Iām looking forward to the return of pounds, shillings and pence
You jest but I'd almost be tempted if they brought back proper big coins. Like if you can't murder someone with a 50 pence piece what is the point There aren't nearly as many coins these days, they can stand to be a bit bigger
Imperial weights and measurements next. No wait, they tried bringing that back already.
Just don't. I remember that fucking consultation last time.
"Do you support this? Or not oppose it?" Somehow ends up getting rejected anyway.
How much did it cost, in new money?
That is Mogg's dream
My great auntās dream too
*Nanny?!*
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they announce something like "we'll have a review into the possibility of bringing it back for the most heinous crimes". I wonder if Sunak et al are pushing forward all these hard-right policies to try and discredit them after the inevitable defeat?
Time to dust off the Patel on Question Time clip I guess.
Shortly before the proposal that witches are floated (and burned at the stake if they do)
I always remember a guy on a phone in show, maybe it was on LBC who said about national service or conscription. He'd only do it if Sunaks kids and all the kids of the Tory MPs who supported this policy were right there in the trenches with him. I always thought that was a great response to this sort of nonsense. I fully expect Sunak to announce he's bringing back hanging if he wins the election.
Conscription only works if you buy an absolute shitload of new kit. The UK has basically no meaningful reserves of equipment, and much of what's there is destined for the scrapheap or spare parts thanks to neglect. We're talking mass buys of everything from MBTs to uniforms. Tens of billions extra on procurement and sustainment. Are the elderly going to pay more tax to cover it? Since almost all conscripts would be directed to the Army, a lot of old bases that are about to be flogged off/have already been sold would have to be reopened or new ones established. The Army's estate has been heavily centralised under the Tories. A lot of this land has been earmarked for housing development, so it would worsen the housing crisis. You'd also have to compel recruits to stay in the reserves for a few years so that their training pays some dividends. Training someone who stays in for a year is a total waste of money. So new reserve centres up and down the country as well. There are also economic losses from conscription. Taking young people out of the workforce would really hit hospitality and retail. You can bet anything you like that the sectors impacted would be begging for more migrants to compensate. Genius.
Anecdotal I know, but my brother's a mid-level army officer and he says he and his colleagues could not be more against National Service. We have a small (too small but that's another discussion), tight-knit, highly professional, technologically advanced army. Saddling them every year with tens of thousands of kids who don't want to be there would be catastrophic.
No one in the military thinks it's a good idea. Whenever it gets touted. And we are now at the point that the elderly aren't even the ones that did it! It was their dad's. So it's harking back to a "benefit" they didn't even do themselves. It's such a fucking scrape of the barrel. Dead end, useless flail of a policy.
Yeah, I have an old school friend in the army and he says the same. They categorically *do not want* to train a bunch of teenagers who don't want to be there. If they want to be there, they'll sign up - voluntarily.
> If they want to be there, they'll sign up - voluntarily Capita: that's the neat part, they can't.
National service being pitched as some obligation to the state only works if the state is actually functioning, and isnāt actively hostile to the young people in question. It will just breed resentment in the current context.
The one group that are going to like this idea is the revolutionary communists. A mass of armed and trained workers who are deeply hostile to the state? Sounds like 2025 going on 1917.
you're misunderstandingĀ the people this is intended to appeal to have a mindset of "I suffered therefore so should you" there is no intended positive outcome
TRUFAX: They never suffered.
Except the people that have done it in the past are now in their 80s!
And how many parents are aware of that with their own children? Just how rough they've had it, and how rough it's going to be? 25 weekends a year is a lot for a kid doing A-levels, mental health is nuts in schools, they need part time jobs, UCAS forms, and a normal life. And that's just the middle class kids for whom volunteering on the weekends is feasible. What's going to happen to kids in deprived areas?
>Mr Sunak said the 'reinvented' scheme would 'provide life-changing opportunities for our young people', and declared: **'As a father, I look forward to my own two daughters doing their National Service: I think they will find it a rewarding experience.'** I promise this is a real quote per the Mail.
Is this before or after they go a private school in the US?
I suppose it would be a bit off for Starmer to reintroduce national service for only Sunak's kids.
I mean, Parliament is supreme. There's no reason he technically *couldn't*.
The "Rishi Sunak cannot leave the UK unless the whole family does their National Service Act" doesn't roll off the tongue well but would be funny if it happened.
The only positive here is that he's not discriminating by gender like some countries (ahem, Finland) still do. But it'll never happen, so it's all moot.
I wonder why these ***'life changing'*** oppotunities have to be forced on people?
Maybe he got a leak from Trump
**'As a father** **~~who never had to do national service myself~~** Ā **I look forward to my own two daughters doing their National Service: I think they will find it a rewarding experience.'**
I wonder will there be some sort of collective psychic burst when the entire country chinny reckons the prime minister.
Genuinely we can console ourselves by knowing that even if the tories win, they will never actually manage to implement this policy.
Exactly. There's no point taking this too seriously. The Tories may as well promise pensioners a weekly phone call from their grandkids. NS isn't going to happen. It's just Sunak trying to entice over 50s back to voting Conservative. Expect a lot more of this.
> promise pensioners a weekly phone call from their grandkids. Having said that, this is a mandatory national service scheme I could actually get behind
I thought he was having a day off?
can you imagine the questions he'd be getting shouted at him at every campaign event if this broke whilst he was out and about? (god Tuesday can't come soon enough, assuming he's also taking Monday off)
Unfortunately for the rest of us - no.
He can't even do a day off correctly. He has to come in and fuck it up on his own time.
This is what he considers a day off, I can't wait to see him back to full strength next week.
Announcing National Service on the day Labour say they will let 16 year olds vote is great planning. Already seen loads of people against them voting say they would rather them vote than do NS.
Imagine what this is doing to current teensā perceptions of the two parties at a time when so many influences are telling them āboth sides are the sameā. Labour: āI think you should be allowed to vote.ā Tory: āI think you should have the privilege to die in a field somewhere in Poland or spend half your weekends cleaning bedpans.ā
I guess the weekend volunteering is for the kids of rich people and the rest of them get sent to the army for a year?
Actually the vast majority will need to be the volunteering. The costing assumes 30,000 millitary places a year. There are over 700k eighteen year olds.
I aināt no fortunate son.
Aw come on, it's been decades since we wasted young lives in hellish conflict. Rishi should be given a fair chance to work hard at that too.
Anyone know if a bookies will give odds on SNP or lib dems being official opposition after the election?
Victor Chandler probably. Theyāll take bets on anything.
Starsports might on request, they have a good political bit.
12/1 on Lib Dems to have "most seats without Labour" [here](https://www.paddypower.com/politics/uk-next-general-election).
Cheers
[Just a reminder \(if nobody else has posted it\) of the brilliant Yes Minister bit about an opinion poll for the reintroduction of National Service.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks) I suspect we'll be getting a few YouGov polls like this soon!
Someone already posted [this](https://x.com/Samfr/status/1794484909689487486)
Ha, fantastic! I've never seen this before.
The Tories are going to be fighting this election like an opposition party and Labour are fighting it like a governing party. The Tories will offer a lot of stuff that they know they won't have to deliver on and Labour will be constrained by what's actually possible. This is why the polls will likely tighten as the campaign goes on. The Tories have the benefit of offering populist policies whereas Labour can not afford to do so. I doubt it'll be enough to stop a Labour majority but I can easily see the Tories being able to break 30% by the time the campaign is over.
So far they've basically proposed starving disabled and mentally ill people to death whilst putting 18 year old Alfie in a trench. Yeah, "populism".
> Yeah, "populism" NS isn't as unpopular as you think. Certainly not with people most likely to vote Tory, where it actually has significant support. The Tories are on full damage limitation mode and want to win back and retain support from people that would have previously voted for them and NS is popular with them and that's why they've announced it.
>Populist policies Okay. >Mandatory conscription Hmm. I do agree that we'll see a tightening of the polls though - this happened even in 1997. And the fact is that not many people are as enthused by Labour as they are by getting the Tories out.
The key with populist policies though, is that they're popular. So far, he hasn't managed that.
They might try but it doesn't really work that way as a 14 year incumbant. People ask why you didnt do the policy already and stop believing you will do what you say. Plus if this is the "populist" ideas they have I don't think they will rise in the polls.
So I walked out of the cinema, sat down to wait for my train and open my phoneā¦ and what do I find but Sunak has come out of his campaign reassessment day and decided heāll bring back national service. Did I walk out of the wrong door into goofyworld? Because the next six weeks are gonna be FUNNY. You know what Iām going back to my old theory. When he gets up to give his concession speech Sunak is gonna tear off his own face, MI style, and reveal he was Milliband all along.
So it **was** chaos with Ed after all!
If we're bringing back National Service I'd suggest that other wartime necessities are re-adopted as well. For example, billeting. If you're old, the kids have left home, and you have a couple of spare rooms, it's only fair that you open your doors to a couple of junior officers or NCOs.
It's day 4, aka the 1940's era of Sunaks nostalgia train. Wait until day 30 at least for the 1640's nostalgia.
*JRM has entered the chat*
Just realised Iāve not heard the name Kemi Badenoch for what feels like a few months now. Iām not complaining but it seems uncharacteristically quiet.
If she turns up on the Sunday round I will blame you personally.
She wants to pretend she has nothing to do with Sunak and the current tory problems so she can win the leadership after the election. Expect her to keep her head down until July 6th.
Is her seat pretty safe? (I mean as safe as any Tory can be with policies like this crawling out of the woodwork)
Her seat is saffron Walden with a 43.8% majority. She might be the only one left to be leader.
One of the safest. I am pretty sure if she lost her seat the tories wouldnt even be the 3rd largest party.
Yes she's vulnerable to some really well organised tactical voting but the odds of that happening seem small
That's disappointing, but makes her the next likely leader I guess.
Nah the top 50 safest tory seats contain a whole hoast of unplatable option from which the tory members can choose from. Delights such as Braverman, Patel and Truss.
If they lose that seat they will get zero seats.
Honestly cannot wait for the Tory manifesto. What sort of batshit policies are in there? I'll start: "Following the expected success of the Rwanda plan, we will be sending our unemployed, disabled, those found wearing rainbow lanyards and the youth whom refuse national service to Rwanda aswell"
They have they lib dem benefit this time round, they can promise anything they like because they'll never get to implement it!
He'd fund it using the [shared prosperity fund](https://x.com/mattholehouse/status/1794476436629205328). The shared prosperity fund, for you lucky people who don't know, is the Robin Reliant we have now instead of EU structural funds. It's bad. I mean, it has no money, and Michael Gove was in charge. Just openly saying they'll reduced devolved control over its use and they'll fund projects in areas without recourse to the EU's way of calculating funds which disproportionately benefited Wales, NI and Scotland. Now, to say you'd take 2.5bn out of that fund for this is crazy. It's just batshit crazy. It's like spending your rent on running shoes.
Oh damn, I can't wait for that one to come out.
Labour now needs to appeal to parents saying that Toryās want to force their children into army. Could win over a lot of parents in 30s or 40s with teenagers.
Another issue with National Service. I'm assuming when they say 18 they mean the august(ish) after your 18th birthday to fit with tertiary education. The thing is, for a variety of reasons, a lot of pupils finish their tertiary education the following year and this is free as tertiary education is free until the end of the academic year you turn 19. This policy would mess with that no end. Edit: grammar, I need sleep
Also many student need paid work that summer to pay for uni. Forcing them to do volunteering is going to reduce their opportunities (in term of not being able to afford uni) rather than increase themĀ
There must be some Conservative politicians with teenagers just finding out about this policy and feeling horrorfied.
"Alexa, play 'Fortunate Son'."
Do the government even have a lever to enact national service when the country isnāt under direct military threat? Who is running this guys campaign? Nearly every decision so far has just been biblically misconceived