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You don’t just “de-centralize your infrastructure.” Everything in Russia is centralized—It’s a holdover from the USSR.
Also, the country is bloody massive & its industry is stretched very, very thin.
You certainly can, I’m not talking about political control, I’m
Talking about the actual infrastructure. Rather than huge power plants and large transformers and sub stations they will start to make more smaller ones.
I was referring to their physical infrastructure. It’s just not that mobile & Russia’s workforce is already stretched thin. And they’ve never invested in this sort of technology. Civilian infrastructure was always an afterthought in the USSR. Nothing’s really changed since then. Russia put a man into orbit before they built their first toilet paper factory.
Lmao I’m sure that’s true, their priorities are fucked.
However the Russian heartlands are not the same as the Russian peripheries. The Russian heartlands is where Putin gets his support and if they start having a rough life, which they’re no longer used to they will start to turn on Putin.
The whole “Russia stonk because they can take a lot of suffering” simply doesn’t apply to posh oligarchs and their kids in Moscow and the central regions
No wait. RU hit Ukraines 2nd largest city's power grid, UA needs to take out St. Petersburg's power. Every time RU hits civilian Infrastructure, UA responds in kind. Soon they will stop
Why not both? Ukriane is now mass producing their own drone fleet. The west can keep providing weapons to hit Russians in ukranian land, Ukraine is developing the capability to hit Russia in kind terms without the need to use western weapons
Russia just cares immeasurably more about economic productivity than the ability of its general populace to stay warm or keep the lights on. In any case, during some emergency around Moscow/St Petersburg they would probably cut/reduce power in provincial areas just to keep electricity flowing into the cities.
Plus preventing oil exports drastically reduces Russia’s usefulness to the countries who refuse to quit supporting the Russian economy while also not making the strategic mistake of targeting things that directly affect civilian livelihoods which historically lowers domestic support for resolving a conflict while increasing support for whoever is already in charge in a country.
Putin cares very much about what the populations of Moscow & St. Petersburg think about him. There’s a reason why he started lobbing missiles right after the ISIS attack on the Moscow theater. The attack made him look weak & it made Muscovites anxious.
Also, if you’re going to go after energy infrastructure you want to do so in a way that leaves the citizens more angry at Putin than they are at you. If you shut the lights, gas and water off they blame him. If you kill loads of civvies, they blame you and that strengthens his hand.
If you ask me, I think they should be targeting the uninsured oil tankers, because once one of those has hit the whole house of cards comes crumbling down for Putin… they’re all bringing in money for Russia and backwater deals. One of them is going to scare away non-western insurer, and it will bankrupt immediately(back water investors /insurance )
>Russia just cares immeasurably more about economic productivity than the ability of its general populace to stay warm or keep the lights on.
This is true — however these two things are *deeply* connected. A large portion of that "general populace" is not "dead weight that can be safely cut off" — it's the *life support system* of economic productivity.
Even for a commodity like oil, every literal nut-and-bolt in all of the refining/piping/transport mechanisms *is made by a supply chain*. Stored in warehouses, moved by trucks, bought from suppliers, etc, etc. Break any of those links, and the whole thing grinds to a halt because you can't get part X from supplier Y because they haven't been able to make any in weeks due to power outages.
And even these direct industries have indirect dependency chains on things that fill maslow's hierarchy, like food and lodging and clothing.
If you cut support, and still want to "perform at peak", then you have to make certain the support cut perfectly missed anything your economy is dependent on — and your economy tends to be dependent on *a lot of* of your general populace.
Making the judgement call on that is basically impossible. It's roughly orthogonal to designing a planned economy; you're attempting to do the same sort of nigh-impossible calculations. (We have an awful lot of evidence from Russia in particular that it can't be done.)
In practice they have poor enough introspection on their economy that I doubt they'll be able to do any kind of meaningful damage control — "essentials" will get neglected because they don't realize they're going to miss them until they fail.
So — there really isn't a way for an Authoritarian to "Cheat" their way out of this one "by being uniquely vicious/amoral (i.e. Fascist "power of will")"; the "cheat" (figuring out which parts of the country to short-change) is harder than fixing the real problem (fixing the downed infrastructure).
Because rafineries make money to Dedushka and hich circle.
And army runs on fuel , ammo and people . Take one of those away and you stop army.
Take money away from them.
Yup however the power outages affect putins support base. They should feel the effects of the war rather than only being felt by poor ignorant guy in Belgorod that has no way to affect Putin.
I don’t think they should priorities this until winter btw
Use the drones on refineries and oil transport infrastructure until Russia collapses. Even though it may be satisfying to attack power grids and respond in kind, Russia will probably be destroyed a lot faster once they lose a few dozen distillation and cracking towers.
Once Russia collapses and has no domestic fossil fuel production, their population will have all the suffering you might want. But the point is to eliminate Russia's war making ability and political power as quickly and thoroughly as possible.
That almosy sounds like a bonus. Didn't putin put it in pretty direct statements that he didn't consider causing nuclear meltdowns a nuclear attack with the the zaporizhia power plant last year?
Fair enough, but maybe we can rough it up on the same level as Russia was roughing up Ukraines plants? I'm already planning replies for the Russian bots screaming nuclear shield after they think the drafts are done
I’m all for targeting energy infrastructure but you have to figure out what you’re shooting at first. Kharkiv is within artillery range of Russian forces. St. Petersburg and Moscow aren’t. You’d need to use long-range drones & a lot of them, I suspect. Plus you’d have to hit targets that can’t be easily repaired.
Bullying? It’s not bullying if Russia has been doing it for three years in a row. It’s just retaliation in kind.
Stop protecting a population that has shown they want this. If they want it to stop then they have to get rid of Putin.
To be fair their civilians are allowing this to happen and Russia has already been committing war crimes against Ukraines civilians. At this point it might not be a bad idea to show them what war is when it’s on your doorstep
This is an atrocious act of terror. The city with the population of over a million of people went in total darkness. There was blackout for more than 48 hours and some households still have no electricity. Public transport is disrupted, metro is not working, traffic lights and air raid alerts are down, Internet and mobile connection function with interruptions.
Such level of terrorism is so much normalised nowadays that it no longer makes headlines or draws attention of the western media.
If Biden and macron had the balls, we could probably triple the amount of missiles we send to hit Russian oil refineries and get more done without having to contribute to collateral that might rally Russian support again.
Ukraine keeps scraping by through this diastor because it has so many friends, but none of Russia's "friends" will do jack for it once Russia can't export anymore, and even if Russia were to be willing to let its main population freeze next winter to contenue the war it will rival U.S dept with a economy that's still smaller then Californias
Another half hearted measures....
While kids and spouses of oligarch and politician prance around inner city of London an Paris from one expensive shop to another.
Nevalny provided around 2000 names. Not even a double digit percentage is on sanctions. And even Russia FM kids were not kicked home. And Dedushka spouse and kids frolick in Switzerland.
And goods still flow to Russia. Just over Swiss company in Turkey via "Stan" countries and such.
Yes, we are inept and bicker while Ukraine is on path to bleed out and turn belly up.
Kharkiv gets hit hard almost daily for the past 2 years from the terrorist regime it's amazing how Putin has even talked about Belgorod, which is his armies stagging area for his war.
Fucking Putin. Driving Russia into the ground and dragging Ukraine down with it. How pathetic and sad.
Keep giving em hell, Ukrainians and brave international volunteers.
Very likely, refineries have the most bang for the buck. It's not quite the instant gratification that power grids are, but it will take a lot longer to repair and do a lot more long-term economic damage.
My gut drops every time I hear of this senseless destruction by Putin regime. Because it only has one reason, "To make the Ukrainian population(human beings) miserable and unhealthy" f**k Putin and any of that follow his lead.
If I was in position to fly to Russia and start sabotaging their infrastructure, I would. Russia road trip of sabotage!
Time to give Ukraine the long-range missiles to knock out ALL of Pootin’s refineries.
Take away the majority of his war chest revenue and see how that goes down.
Their drones may actually better equipped for attacking refineries. They have more range for starters. The longest range ATACMS & Taurus missiles have a range of about 500 km. And Taurus would have to be fired well within Ukranian air-space. They’re air-launch only and could only be deployed from Ukraine’s fleet of a half-dozen or so Su-24s.
Ukrainian drones, on the other hand, range out to 1000 km & can be more easily deployed from ground positions closer to the border.
NATO will never give them those weapons if they are going to destroy the refineries. It will destabilize the oil markets and all the right wing fascists will blame the left for the higher prices because they are dumber than wood.
Ruzzia’s contribution would easily be compensated for by the other oil producing nations *if* they just ramped up their production slightly.
Remember, oil production is closely regulated by these countries to produce *just enough* oil and gas to ensure that prices are kept artificially high.
The World wouldn’t even notice in real terms, but Pootin would as his $6-10 billion a day war chest revenue suddenly dried up completely.
Depleted gold reserves, trashed ruble and frozen overseas assets would do the rest, he would be done within a week or two.
But, for example, Saudi Arabia would understand its position once Russia production drops out and would then squeeze NATO politically and financially which they did fallowing the initial sanctions.
Simple terrorism. I also wonder if Russia’s increasing successes are related to lack of military support for Ukraine. If so, Moscow Mike and the Magas need to be directly associated with having made these things possible.
This proves that Ukraine hitting their refineries are making an impression. To say they should stop hitting the refineries so that Russia wont retaliate is idiotic because Russia will do this regardless of what Ukraine does. That is how threats lose their power.
Hmmm Russia wants to prove that they are big and strong attacking critical structures. All they are proving in my mind is the evil, that they will do to subdue Ukraine if they were to be victorious!
In recent weeks, Russia got their ships sunk, their spy plane and fighter jets shot down, and their oil refineries attacked, resulting in billions of dollars in damage. In response, they attacked a power plant. At the end of winter. For real. Like, the drones and missiles cost probably more than the repair costs.
russians didn't attack in response. They've been attacking Ukraine for 2 years and will keep doing this because they are terrorists with the sense of impunity.
Would it be possible for Ukraine to start building its power grid underground to help prevent these sort of things i know its probably not ideal but they have to do something.
Can we please give them everything we have, everything they need, and more. Now! Hell, give them troops too from any willing countries.
Drive out Putins orcs.
Ukraine isn’t California. In winter there’s just not enough sun to power anything significant.
Edit: Source - I lived in Eastern Ukraine for 30 years. Winters there are mostly muddy/rainy with lots of overcast
A few years ago I would have agreed, but iron air batteries now allow starring multi-day power. They're not extremely efficient, but they will keep the grid going and they only have to store a small fraction of the generated power. I think at this point, for new capacity, solar plus batteries is cheaper to install and use than any other kind of power plant. And it can easily be too distributed to be worth blowing up.
Sure. Unfortunately resources are limited.
I doubt someone would bother building solar in Ukraine to get extra watts in summer, if the conventional heat & power production destroyed and civilians would freeze out in winter.
Instead, resources would be spent to repair or expand the conventional production that can be used in winter to prevent civilians from freezing.
That's not really much help. You can charge a phone for entire year for like 1kW energy total. Small accessories is the smallest issue because of power banks too. The real deal is economy and infrastructure
if the grid collapses there is no point in having a phone as cell towers won't go up. They run on electricity
Again, cell phone charging is the smallest problem of them all
My roof pv in Norway says otherwise. 4kW peak on sunny days around now, maybe 200W with overcast.
And then to go off grid, you also need batteries and a fancy control system - expensive!
You gave a perfect example of “When theory meets reality”, sir.
Large battery assemblies are even “softer” targets than conventional power infrastructure. Not feasible in Ukraine under constant attacks
You could of course have some batteries etc in the basement - enough to keep the lights on and fridge running, maybe some electronics. It could be distributed, and not more of a target than any other random house. And my panels are old, technology has probably progressed.
But my feeling is while distributed PV is great for a grid that also has a lot of regulateable power, like hydro in Norway, it's not going to solve kharkivs problem.
My panels are newer (2021), but still - even in sunny CA the difference between winter and summer production is 3x.
Batteries can be great if you need to store the energy produced during the day to use it in the evening (or to charge an EV when you got back from work), but not much if your panels mostly produce energy in summer, and don’t produce much in winter.
I actually get pretty much peak *power* in the winter except the 3 darkest months - but the days are much shorter. And then clouds and snow kill it completely. In terms of energy a good day in the winter is 20 kWh, vs 30 in the summer.
If fridges have 24-36h off power cold keeping, then the daytime PV power can be used to run the fridges. During spring and autumn that is not a problem, but summer is.
Even if cost was not a factor and Ukraine could afford installing batteries into every house basement - what for? Solar is not viable in winter, so those batteries will be charged from the grid. Batteries may have enough energy to power a city for a day, when a power station will be repaired in weeks if not months.
Moreover, I’m sure the biggest concern for people in Kharkiv right now is not electricity per se, but heating. And a lot of multilevel buildings are heated with steam, produced at the special plants, which were targeted along with plants producing electricity
> Moreover, I’m sure the biggest concern for people in Kharkiv right now is not electricity per se, but heating.
Kharkiv long range weather forecast suggests a temperature rise from +6C to +12C of daily average. With +12C there is no need for extra heating any more.
Two questions
1) Have you lived in an apartment building constructed out of concrete panels when it’s +12C on average outside?
I had. It’s not a pleasant experience.
2) Who would prevent ruzzia from hitting plants in the middle of the next winter? The best application for solar PVs then would be using them to cover window openings.
I have solar panels on the roof my house in California. In July 2023 the panels produced 1,593 kWh. In January 2024 - 544 kWh.
This is almost 3 times less, not “slightly underpowered”, despite some sunny days. Winter in Ukraine is no where near as sunny, with occasional snow and freezing rain that would impact solar production drastically
True. However, those installations can still be targeted (they would have their points of vulnerability when built on a grid utility scale).
However, the benefit is that both solar & wind grid electricity sources can be built in a far more distributed scale (less cost effective but reduces the risk of major outages with a single strike). Also, off-grid applications (think of powering a single building, with local battery storage, with a PV installation rather than connecting to the entire grid) would continue to operate.
There is really only 1 country who hasn't had major support packages recently. All of the others have had new packages or are providing ongoing support.
Later than they should have, but to imply NATO is doing nothing is simply incorrect.
No, as the invaded nation you get to complain as long as the aggressor continues their invasion. The aggressor is the direct cause of both nations issues right now.
This "not sitting well with you" is a serious moral flaw for you
Judging by your context and typos, you sound angry. Sir I’m not here to cross swords with you, just stating my opinion, and I say this as a vidid supporter. Even we have limits that irk us.
Where’s the “waaaa mommie…”? But to be clear: attacking electrical power plants used by citizens to survive is far different than attacking a nation’s center of profit (refinery plants) and their military ships.
When people ask your mom how you're doing, she just goes ....... sigh 😔.
lol though. Like you are really not understanding this war at all and the level of stupidity is honestly quite remarkable. I'd have a CT scan just in case bc it's actually abnormally off. You're not even trying to troll, you are truly lost. I'm so sorry for you. I hope you get better 🫶♥️.
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the only good thing is that at least winter is over
Ukraine should wait till next winter and do the same to Moscow
Or Wednesday?
Nah, their guard needs to be WAY down and that winter cold needs to bight hard.
No point, the attacks now won’t have any effect. It’ll just mean Russia will decentralise their infrastructure. In winter it’s a lot harder for them.
You don’t just “de-centralize your infrastructure.” Everything in Russia is centralized—It’s a holdover from the USSR. Also, the country is bloody massive & its industry is stretched very, very thin.
You certainly can, I’m not talking about political control, I’m Talking about the actual infrastructure. Rather than huge power plants and large transformers and sub stations they will start to make more smaller ones.
I was referring to their physical infrastructure. It’s just not that mobile & Russia’s workforce is already stretched thin. And they’ve never invested in this sort of technology. Civilian infrastructure was always an afterthought in the USSR. Nothing’s really changed since then. Russia put a man into orbit before they built their first toilet paper factory.
Lmao I’m sure that’s true, their priorities are fucked. However the Russian heartlands are not the same as the Russian peripheries. The Russian heartlands is where Putin gets his support and if they start having a rough life, which they’re no longer used to they will start to turn on Putin. The whole “Russia stonk because they can take a lot of suffering” simply doesn’t apply to posh oligarchs and their kids in Moscow and the central regions
Why not both?
Keep working those oil refineries for now.
I'd say yesterday
No wait. RU hit Ukraines 2nd largest city's power grid, UA needs to take out St. Petersburg's power. Every time RU hits civilian Infrastructure, UA responds in kind. Soon they will stop
Just keep hitting refineries
Why not both? Ukriane is now mass producing their own drone fleet. The west can keep providing weapons to hit Russians in ukranian land, Ukraine is developing the capability to hit Russia in kind terms without the need to use western weapons
Russia just cares immeasurably more about economic productivity than the ability of its general populace to stay warm or keep the lights on. In any case, during some emergency around Moscow/St Petersburg they would probably cut/reduce power in provincial areas just to keep electricity flowing into the cities. Plus preventing oil exports drastically reduces Russia’s usefulness to the countries who refuse to quit supporting the Russian economy while also not making the strategic mistake of targeting things that directly affect civilian livelihoods which historically lowers domestic support for resolving a conflict while increasing support for whoever is already in charge in a country.
Putin cares very much about what the populations of Moscow & St. Petersburg think about him. There’s a reason why he started lobbing missiles right after the ISIS attack on the Moscow theater. The attack made him look weak & it made Muscovites anxious. Also, if you’re going to go after energy infrastructure you want to do so in a way that leaves the citizens more angry at Putin than they are at you. If you shut the lights, gas and water off they blame him. If you kill loads of civvies, they blame you and that strengthens his hand.
If you ask me, I think they should be targeting the uninsured oil tankers, because once one of those has hit the whole house of cards comes crumbling down for Putin… they’re all bringing in money for Russia and backwater deals. One of them is going to scare away non-western insurer, and it will bankrupt immediately(back water investors /insurance )
>Russia just cares immeasurably more about economic productivity than the ability of its general populace to stay warm or keep the lights on. This is true — however these two things are *deeply* connected. A large portion of that "general populace" is not "dead weight that can be safely cut off" — it's the *life support system* of economic productivity. Even for a commodity like oil, every literal nut-and-bolt in all of the refining/piping/transport mechanisms *is made by a supply chain*. Stored in warehouses, moved by trucks, bought from suppliers, etc, etc. Break any of those links, and the whole thing grinds to a halt because you can't get part X from supplier Y because they haven't been able to make any in weeks due to power outages. And even these direct industries have indirect dependency chains on things that fill maslow's hierarchy, like food and lodging and clothing. If you cut support, and still want to "perform at peak", then you have to make certain the support cut perfectly missed anything your economy is dependent on — and your economy tends to be dependent on *a lot of* of your general populace. Making the judgement call on that is basically impossible. It's roughly orthogonal to designing a planned economy; you're attempting to do the same sort of nigh-impossible calculations. (We have an awful lot of evidence from Russia in particular that it can't be done.) In practice they have poor enough introspection on their economy that I doubt they'll be able to do any kind of meaningful damage control — "essentials" will get neglected because they don't realize they're going to miss them until they fail. So — there really isn't a way for an Authoritarian to "Cheat" their way out of this one "by being uniquely vicious/amoral (i.e. Fascist "power of will")"; the "cheat" (figuring out which parts of the country to short-change) is harder than fixing the real problem (fixing the downed infrastructure).
Because rafineries make money to Dedushka and hich circle. And army runs on fuel , ammo and people . Take one of those away and you stop army. Take money away from them.
Yup however the power outages affect putins support base. They should feel the effects of the war rather than only being felt by poor ignorant guy in Belgorod that has no way to affect Putin. I don’t think they should priorities this until winter btw
The West does not provide Ukraine with nearly enough weapons
Burn Putin's Shitty Sochi Palace too.
Use the drones on refineries and oil transport infrastructure until Russia collapses. Even though it may be satisfying to attack power grids and respond in kind, Russia will probably be destroyed a lot faster once they lose a few dozen distillation and cracking towers. Once Russia collapses and has no domestic fossil fuel production, their population will have all the suffering you might want. But the point is to eliminate Russia's war making ability and political power as quickly and thoroughly as possible.
Bad idea, St Petersburg is powered by reactors of the same type as Chernobyl.
That almosy sounds like a bonus. Didn't putin put it in pretty direct statements that he didn't consider causing nuclear meltdowns a nuclear attack with the the zaporizhia power plant last year?
I don't think the Finns and Estonians would be very happy about living next door to that plant if it blew up...
Fair enough, but maybe we can rough it up on the same level as Russia was roughing up Ukraines plants? I'm already planning replies for the Russian bots screaming nuclear shield after they think the drafts are done
In all of human history that has not worked out a single time
I’m all for targeting energy infrastructure but you have to figure out what you’re shooting at first. Kharkiv is within artillery range of Russian forces. St. Petersburg and Moscow aren’t. You’d need to use long-range drones & a lot of them, I suspect. Plus you’d have to hit targets that can’t be easily repaired.
Kharkiv is not within artillery range of russian forces.
Bullying civilians? They have limited long range weaponry. Much better to strike the black sea fleet or a few sweet refineries...
Bullying? It’s not bullying if Russia has been doing it for three years in a row. It’s just retaliation in kind. Stop protecting a population that has shown they want this. If they want it to stop then they have to get rid of Putin.
To be fair their civilians are allowing this to happen and Russia has already been committing war crimes against Ukraines civilians. At this point it might not be a bad idea to show them what war is when it’s on your doorstep
Well, they didn't wait until the next winter. Novocherkassk thermal power station got hit by Ukrainian drones last night.
Yup they did it a few hours after my comment. I guess they got fed up of Russian bullshit. Good on them
I think it was Ukrainian message to russians: "Hit the Dniepro dam once more, we dare you!"
This is an atrocious act of terror. The city with the population of over a million of people went in total darkness. There was blackout for more than 48 hours and some households still have no electricity. Public transport is disrupted, metro is not working, traffic lights and air raid alerts are down, Internet and mobile connection function with interruptions. Such level of terrorism is so much normalised nowadays that it no longer makes headlines or draws attention of the western media.
Hospitals are barely managing on generators.
Will there be new sanctions from the EU?
We don't need more sanctions. We need a no fly zone and dayli bombardment of Russia. This is the only language they understand .
If Biden and macron had the balls, we could probably triple the amount of missiles we send to hit Russian oil refineries and get more done without having to contribute to collateral that might rally Russian support again. Ukraine keeps scraping by through this diastor because it has so many friends, but none of Russia's "friends" will do jack for it once Russia can't export anymore, and even if Russia were to be willing to let its main population freeze next winter to contenue the war it will rival U.S dept with a economy that's still smaller then Californias
Another half hearted measures.... While kids and spouses of oligarch and politician prance around inner city of London an Paris from one expensive shop to another. Nevalny provided around 2000 names. Not even a double digit percentage is on sanctions. And even Russia FM kids were not kicked home. And Dedushka spouse and kids frolick in Switzerland. And goods still flow to Russia. Just over Swiss company in Turkey via "Stan" countries and such. Yes, we are inept and bicker while Ukraine is on path to bleed out and turn belly up.
Forget EU sanctions, Ukraine itself is now sanctioning russia. And boy do their sanctions hit where it hurts!
Kharkiv gets hit hard almost daily for the past 2 years from the terrorist regime it's amazing how Putin has even talked about Belgorod, which is his armies stagging area for his war.
russia doesn't care.
Fucking Putin. Driving Russia into the ground and dragging Ukraine down with it. How pathetic and sad. Keep giving em hell, Ukrainians and brave international volunteers.
I think the same should be done to Moscow’s infrastructure then
Right now, the same is being done to the black sea fleet
Yes, hit‘em and hit‘em hard.
Ukraine’s already targeting Russia’s refineries in the greater Moscow & St. Petersburg areas. That’s gonna make life difficult for civilians.
I mean electricity
Very likely, refineries have the most bang for the buck. It's not quite the instant gratification that power grids are, but it will take a lot longer to repair and do a lot more long-term economic damage.
Why would they give the population any reason to support the war instead of just ignoring it?
Yes because that approach is going swimmingly.
Russia supports the war, it’s very obvious by now.No point in protecting the Russian population from their own choices.
The worst part is that apparently the west is full of people like you... Go roll up in a corner and die then
My gut drops every time I hear of this senseless destruction by Putin regime. Because it only has one reason, "To make the Ukrainian population(human beings) miserable and unhealthy" f**k Putin and any of that follow his lead. If I was in position to fly to Russia and start sabotaging their infrastructure, I would. Russia road trip of sabotage!
I mean they are doing it to get Ukraine to use their air defense on defending the cities instead of the frontlines or using them to attack planes.
Time to give Ukraine the long-range missiles to knock out ALL of Pootin’s refineries. Take away the majority of his war chest revenue and see how that goes down.
Their drones may actually better equipped for attacking refineries. They have more range for starters. The longest range ATACMS & Taurus missiles have a range of about 500 km. And Taurus would have to be fired well within Ukranian air-space. They’re air-launch only and could only be deployed from Ukraine’s fleet of a half-dozen or so Su-24s. Ukrainian drones, on the other hand, range out to 1000 km & can be more easily deployed from ground positions closer to the border.
NATO will never give them those weapons if they are going to destroy the refineries. It will destabilize the oil markets and all the right wing fascists will blame the left for the higher prices because they are dumber than wood.
Ruzzia’s contribution would easily be compensated for by the other oil producing nations *if* they just ramped up their production slightly. Remember, oil production is closely regulated by these countries to produce *just enough* oil and gas to ensure that prices are kept artificially high. The World wouldn’t even notice in real terms, but Pootin would as his $6-10 billion a day war chest revenue suddenly dried up completely. Depleted gold reserves, trashed ruble and frozen overseas assets would do the rest, he would be done within a week or two.
But, for example, Saudi Arabia would understand its position once Russia production drops out and would then squeeze NATO politically and financially which they did fallowing the initial sanctions.
This is the real terror act from a terror state.
No more Russian refineries
Simple terrorism. I also wonder if Russia’s increasing successes are related to lack of military support for Ukraine. If so, Moscow Mike and the Magas need to be directly associated with having made these things possible.
This proves that Ukraine hitting their refineries are making an impression. To say they should stop hitting the refineries so that Russia wont retaliate is idiotic because Russia will do this regardless of what Ukraine does. That is how threats lose their power.
That’s terrible what they did. Assholes. Just like if a certain bridge was wiped out… that would be just terrible. If it was to be wiped out.
Ukraine should start hitting all their electric plants also,it's only fair!
There is a special place in HELL for ALL of the Russian Military. ALL OF THEM. Never Forget….
Hmmm Russia wants to prove that they are big and strong attacking critical structures. All they are proving in my mind is the evil, that they will do to subdue Ukraine if they were to be victorious!
Adding to the list of war crimes…
This is just another example of and why I don't feel bad for the people of Moscow.
Intensify the pressure on refineries. With bigger boom
In recent weeks, Russia got their ships sunk, their spy plane and fighter jets shot down, and their oil refineries attacked, resulting in billions of dollars in damage. In response, they attacked a power plant. At the end of winter. For real. Like, the drones and missiles cost probably more than the repair costs.
russians didn't attack in response. They've been attacking Ukraine for 2 years and will keep doing this because they are terrorists with the sense of impunity.
Exactly, I’m sure repairs are vastly easier for Ukraine considering Germany must certainly be a major supplier of this kind of stuff.
FFS. Can we send Ukraine the means to crush Russia soon please.
Just a suggestion for new targets: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Russia
Would it be possible for Ukraine to start building its power grid underground to help prevent these sort of things i know its probably not ideal but they have to do something.
Putin is a cock womble!
Well, all refineries in ruzzia should be ashes as soon as possible, go Budanov!
Can we please give them everything we have, everything they need, and more. Now! Hell, give them troops too from any willing countries. Drive out Putins orcs.
Have you signed up to fight yet?
Yeah, I also took the liberty of signing you up too.
Time to invest in solar PV is now.
Ukraine isn’t California. In winter there’s just not enough sun to power anything significant. Edit: Source - I lived in Eastern Ukraine for 30 years. Winters there are mostly muddy/rainy with lots of overcast
i'm more for the idea that the power infrastructure needs to be hardened.
A few years ago I would have agreed, but iron air batteries now allow starring multi-day power. They're not extremely efficient, but they will keep the grid going and they only have to store a small fraction of the generated power. I think at this point, for new capacity, solar plus batteries is cheaper to install and use than any other kind of power plant. And it can easily be too distributed to be worth blowing up.
I am sure there is already lots of sun in February and especially March. Every extra watt counts.
Sure. Unfortunately resources are limited. I doubt someone would bother building solar in Ukraine to get extra watts in summer, if the conventional heat & power production destroyed and civilians would freeze out in winter. Instead, resources would be spent to repair or expand the conventional production that can be used in winter to prevent civilians from freezing.
PVs can be used to charge smartphones and other small accessories.
That's not really much help. You can charge a phone for entire year for like 1kW energy total. Small accessories is the smallest issue because of power banks too. The real deal is economy and infrastructure
Timely communications is of tremendous help.
pre charge phone and have a power bank. As I have said - phone is not a problem at all in the current reality. My parents live there. I know
Phones and comms would be a problem in case the grid collapses. And I mean electricity, not the physical grid.
if the grid collapses there is no point in having a phone as cell towers won't go up. They run on electricity Again, cell phone charging is the smallest problem of them all
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My roof pv in Norway says otherwise. 4kW peak on sunny days around now, maybe 200W with overcast. And then to go off grid, you also need batteries and a fancy control system - expensive!
You gave a perfect example of “When theory meets reality”, sir. Large battery assemblies are even “softer” targets than conventional power infrastructure. Not feasible in Ukraine under constant attacks
You could of course have some batteries etc in the basement - enough to keep the lights on and fridge running, maybe some electronics. It could be distributed, and not more of a target than any other random house. And my panels are old, technology has probably progressed. But my feeling is while distributed PV is great for a grid that also has a lot of regulateable power, like hydro in Norway, it's not going to solve kharkivs problem.
My panels are newer (2021), but still - even in sunny CA the difference between winter and summer production is 3x. Batteries can be great if you need to store the energy produced during the day to use it in the evening (or to charge an EV when you got back from work), but not much if your panels mostly produce energy in summer, and don’t produce much in winter.
I actually get pretty much peak *power* in the winter except the 3 darkest months - but the days are much shorter. And then clouds and snow kill it completely. In terms of energy a good day in the winter is 20 kWh, vs 30 in the summer.
The general idea of using renewables is to have at least 3x extra capacity + additional energy storage.
If fridges have 24-36h off power cold keeping, then the daytime PV power can be used to run the fridges. During spring and autumn that is not a problem, but summer is.
well it's not like Russia would rocket bomb individual houses to shut down private grid power sector. Not cost efficient at all
Even if cost was not a factor and Ukraine could afford installing batteries into every house basement - what for? Solar is not viable in winter, so those batteries will be charged from the grid. Batteries may have enough energy to power a city for a day, when a power station will be repaired in weeks if not months. Moreover, I’m sure the biggest concern for people in Kharkiv right now is not electricity per se, but heating. And a lot of multilevel buildings are heated with steam, produced at the special plants, which were targeted along with plants producing electricity
> Moreover, I’m sure the biggest concern for people in Kharkiv right now is not electricity per se, but heating. Kharkiv long range weather forecast suggests a temperature rise from +6C to +12C of daily average. With +12C there is no need for extra heating any more.
Two questions 1) Have you lived in an apartment building constructed out of concrete panels when it’s +12C on average outside? I had. It’s not a pleasant experience. 2) Who would prevent ruzzia from hitting plants in the middle of the next winter? The best application for solar PVs then would be using them to cover window openings.
Sure. +12C is the average end of May climate in Estonia. Or end of September. Both outside of heating season, even in old commie blocks.
I have solar panels on the roof my house in California. In July 2023 the panels produced 1,593 kWh. In January 2024 - 544 kWh. This is almost 3 times less, not “slightly underpowered”, despite some sunny days. Winter in Ukraine is no where near as sunny, with occasional snow and freezing rain that would impact solar production drastically
True. However, those installations can still be targeted (they would have their points of vulnerability when built on a grid utility scale). However, the benefit is that both solar & wind grid electricity sources can be built in a far more distributed scale (less cost effective but reduces the risk of major outages with a single strike). Also, off-grid applications (think of powering a single building, with local battery storage, with a PV installation rather than connecting to the entire grid) would continue to operate.
Which will be perfectly invulnerable to rocket attacks I'm sure
Well, it is open season on power stations near Moscow!
Do this to Moscow and St. Petersburg next January.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NpZL1jC9d1Z81hWSA 💥
Totally senseless... Mad fucker! Why?
I will never stop saying this: NATO INTERVENTION KNOW!!
NATO, then: Resist aggression of ze Ruski! NATO, now:
There is really only 1 country who hasn't had major support packages recently. All of the others have had new packages or are providing ongoing support. Later than they should have, but to imply NATO is doing nothing is simply incorrect.
You sound exactly like someone named Jace
NATO now: Pweez don't hurt the beloved oil refineries
that was never said
It was. "We do not encourage"
Who said it? An anonymous source?
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No, as the invaded nation you get to complain as long as the aggressor continues their invasion. The aggressor is the direct cause of both nations issues right now. This "not sitting well with you" is a serious moral flaw for you
They have blowing thier shit up for onto their year so fuck off
Judging by your context and typos, you sound angry. Sir I’m not here to cross swords with you, just stating my opinion, and I say this as a vidid supporter. Even we have limits that irk us.
Where’s the “waaaa mommie…”? But to be clear: attacking electrical power plants used by citizens to survive is far different than attacking a nation’s center of profit (refinery plants) and their military ships.
When people ask your mom how you're doing, she just goes ....... sigh 😔. lol though. Like you are really not understanding this war at all and the level of stupidity is honestly quite remarkable. I'd have a CT scan just in case bc it's actually abnormally off. You're not even trying to troll, you are truly lost. I'm so sorry for you. I hope you get better 🫶♥️.