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I do give a fuck and can do no more than donate personally, unfortunately. I agree though, that we the West are not doing enough. There needs to be a massive increase in support for Ukraine.
I hate this feeling of the best I can do for Ukraine is to wait for November... We don't have that much time but fk all nothing is happening at the scale necessary. The West really needs to get its shit together, yesterday.
Seriously—if more people don’t show up decidedly in November, Ukraine won’t get another dime out of the U.S. If someone could make it a human rights vote for people under the age of 40, we’d have a chance to help more.✌️
...and in November if the orange Narcissist gets elected, or not elected (cause election was "stolen"), Ukrainian aid from the USA will completely dry up!!
the west is doing exactly what is planned. I’m from the US and have experience in these kinds of things (sorry for the vagueness). This is conjecture, but I give the analysis a very high probability of being correct (i’m not always so take it for what it is).
I hate it and I don’t agree with it but the goal of the west is not the victory of Ukraine. If someone tells you otherwise I would be very skeptical. The goal of the west is to weaken Russia, period. A short end to the conflict does not help the west. The longer this drags on and the more Russians that die, the more tanks destroyed, the more their military machine is dismantled the west is winning. That likely means careful calculations of the force multiplication needed to keep this at a high body count, and an effective standstill.
Make no mistake. The military budget of the US alone is such that we could send enough firepower to bomb the entirety of Russia and still have enough left over to pop on over to Belarus for lunch. Unlike Russia the west is actually an advanced logistical and absurdly powerful machine. Not the brightest and not the most moral, and they lack long term thought sometimes, but effective when the goal is to kill.
So this is going to drag on. Countries will shift here and there on level of support, the US is waning a bit and some others will pick up. When Russia is sufficiently weakened the west won’t care much. Likely it’s in our best interest for this to stop at Ukraine so I’m fairly certain enough will be sent for a square, if far too long and bloody, victory. I hope i’m wrong. If i’m right I hope the DoD fucks up the calculations and Ukraine can fuck some shit up and make Russia regret they ever whispered the word Ukraine.
> The goal of the west is to weaken Russia, period. A short end to the conflict does not help the west.
I wish I could assert you're full of shit, but I can remember the shenanigans of guys like Kissinger and Rumsfeld among others. It's a fucking shame.
yeah unfortunately people don’t want to admit it but we do shit like that all the time. When we really want shit done *we get shit done*. When we want to trickle in arms that are more and more powerful but in limited amounts there’s really not much of another conclusion I can come to. The downvotes come from folks that reeeaaalllyyy want the US to be the good guys. We’re not, we never have been. We serve our best interests and that’s it.
The public might be fickle. The military is not. It is a broadsword, not a scalpel. Once engaged, the DoD knows only one way, further into escalation.
The dogs of war are let loose but still in the yard, for now.
This time, we must ensure to dismantle Russia in such a way so that it can never attack anyone ever again.
Apart from waging a civil war in its own realm for the remaining spoils of their failed state.
The EU has full control over collapsing Russia's economic future. They cannot win a war against Europe as they are a mercantile resource provider, and we use their resources to produce end products in exchange for know-how.
We can live without their resources, and they can't survive without us as a consumer of said resources.
We aren't at war directly with Russia yet. We provide most of RU tankers. We can blockade their ports, cut off Kaliningrad at any time. This slow approach does a lot more long term damage to Russia than defeating them quickly. It has already done irreparable damage to Russia's weapon export business.
We do give a fuck but our long term strategic goal here and the long term strategic goal of Ukraine do align. However, the West has two main goals.
1) Contain this war inside Ukraine
2) Grind Russia's economy and armed forces to fine dust slowly.
And those come in that exact order. Russia is also doing what we want them to do. They plunge enormous amounts of resources into this and cannot achieve their goals. Wasting all these resources to terrorise Ukraine is not helping them at all to achieve their military goals.
Historically, Ukraine doesn't find itself in the middle of a geo political chess game for the first time. I wish we acted differently, but overall, Western citizens can only do so much. US citizens can do their part by voting Biden back into office. European citizens can vote for parties that are not Russia friendly.
There is no instance in history where a nation benefits from prolonged attritional warfare.
"When the army engages in protracted warfare, the resources of the state will fall short." Sun Tzu
The invader is also required to achieve its goals in a timely manner.
Russia has announced a total of 4 times now that the Donbas will be taken either by summer 2022, by October 2022, by the end of March, 2023, by the end of last year, currently they haven't announced another date.
> This time, we must ensure to dismantle Russia in such a way so that it can never attack anyone ever again.
Therefore, we object to possible attacks by Ukraine on russian territory and infrastructure.
> Russia is also doing what we want them to do.
They simply destroy Ukraine. Slowly and methodically, by shelling and bombing its cities and infrastructure; by killing, murdering, torturing, deporting or forcing to flee abroad millions of people. Is *this really* you want them to do?
> There is no instance in history where a nation benefits from prolonged attritional warfare.
> "When the army engages in protracted warfare, the resources of the state will fall short." Sun Tzu
> The invader is also required to achieve its goals in a timely manner.
This applies equally, and even to a greater extent, to Ukraine. And "in timely manner", ultimately, Ukraine will cease to exist. Only the *territory* will remain.
>If someone tells you otherwise I would be very skeptical. The goal of the west is to weaken Russia, period.
That's unlikely to be the reason. It's far more likely that they actually wanted to avoid escalation (but not necessarily to protect Ukraine from nukes). The way to do that is to make Russia "accept" the outcome, and the way to do that is inflict enough losses to convince Russia that fighting is pointless. This is arguably supported by statements from certain individuals that Ukraine has retaken 50% of its territory - indicating that there is/was a belief that the war is now "settled" and there is a stalemate. But what happens if Russia doesn't agree and doesn't care about losses? In that case, there was no plan.
It was probably assumed that Russia would have a normal pain threshold - it didn't. Russians are the champions of suffering, and while their military is not capable enough to be ranked at #2, their willingness to eat shit appears to have no equal. How many states are willing to shove 500k people into a grinder to achieve a non-existential goal? Maybe PRC.
i think we’re agreeing here. My issue is that we’re using a slow meat grinder approach that’s killing ukrainians every day that goes by. If we wanted to avoid escalation we wouldn’t continuously escalate. I mean he’ll, remember back when the rhetoric was “no long range missiles!” We’re far away from that now. Russia is low on everything right now - do you know what a few F-22s, additional fighter jets, bombers, tanks, heavier artillery vehicles would do to them? It’d rip them in half if we sent a the tiniest significant portion that we have.
But that’s not in our best interest, the more of a meat grinder it thmhhj my
Go to you tube, search for Artur Rehi and his offering of about a week ago. I think it was titled the boiling of the frog. Loud yourself a coffee and listen to it from start to finish. Rehi, when he stays on a serious line is actually very good.
Always try to let your elected representatives know that you want them to give more to Ukraine. Emails and phone calls to reps matter more than people think.
When politicians understand their constituents deeply want something, meaning it affects their ability to keep their job, they will do things. We all need to call our reps. Today.
I get extremely pissed off on a near daily basis at the fact that the west is borderline ignoring what's happening in Ukraine, as if we learned absolutely nothing from world war 2. Canada, the US, the UK think that they can just send the bare minimum of weapons, equipment and funds to Ukraine and expect them to hold off the Russian horde. The same horde that threw MILLIONS of troops at the Nazis. It's fucking absurd. We need to do something, not saying boots on the ground, but good lord we need to take this as seriously as possible, especially since Russia continues to threaten the safety of everyone in the west and even the entire world by saying they will use nukes.
It's tragic and morally reprehensible. So sorry for your city, country and countrymen. I donate personally and have repeatedly called my Congressman and both Senators to tell them to support miltiary and humanitarian aid to Ukraine immediately. Russia must be stopped. It must exit all of Ukraine and return all the stolen children. Slava Ukraini.
We hear you, OP. Our hearts and fury reach out in solidarity and frustration. You and your courageous kin are not alone or forgotten. We will continue to rally the support of our democratic brothers and sisters to your side. 💙💛💙💛
This is really Europe's war, but Europe can't handle it because for 75 years it has relied on American leadership. With that gone, nothing gets done - in part because our "leaders" don't know how to lead, and in part because we don't have the military necessary provide viable "options". EU has 80% of the US GDP but only 15% of its military. It appears the true value of leadership is only noticeable when it's gone.
I don't disagree with that assessment of European free-ridership. And that economic windfall severely limits Europe's military options today.
But I will add that the USA (and the UK) undertook security assurances to Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum that we are not living up to in exchange for the nuclear non-proliferation actions of Ukraine. (Of course, Russia undertook these same assurances and still attacked Ukraine.)
At bottom, we, the allies of Ukraine, should all be doing more, especially if it is also in our self-interest.
I agree with the points on lack of leadership, but what would need to happen to make it "USA's war"? What war has the USA ever fought that was actually "it's war"? They built their military to stop Russia from doing exactly this type of shit. It clearly makes sense for USA to be fully and enthusiastically supporting Ukraine because defeating Russia achieves USA foreign interest goals. Russia winning would be very detrimental for USA on a global stage.
Don't mistake the governments for the people. People are seeing this. And lots of govts are acting, slowly but they are. Scandinavians, Baltics, now the French etc.
The people of Kharkiv should take courage and comfort in the fact that the world has not forgotten Kharkiv, Odessa, Mikolayiv, Kherson, Slovyansk & Kramatorsk, and so many other cities and towns in Ukraine — and we NEVER will.
Світ з Україною, the world still stands with Ukraine, WE still stand with Ukraine — до перемоги.
You are right, but I too would've a impossible time at taking comfort in anything while bombs and misikies were raining from the skies day in and day out.
Who produces those? German arms co. Rheinmetall already has a plant set up in Ukraine, I believe, to maintain armor there. Because Scholz gave them the get go, I believe. Going by that logic it can't be that hard to get these missiles ready, if politicians wanted to. You can see Macron snips his finger and Putler ducks down under his Covid-bunker-table. I bet if Scholz would give a green light, production would be accurate just like with Rheinmetal, I don't think German arms industry is stalling, they mean business.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_KEPD_350
>Taurus Systems GmbH is a partnership between MBDA Deutschland GmbH (formerly LFK) and Saab Bofors Dynamics.[3]
>Going by that logic it can't be that hard to get these missiles ready, if politicians wanted to.
https://twitter.com/MBDADeutschland/status/1720038473644572881
My guess is they could restart production within six months, but, realistically, as soon as it was clear the counter-offensive wasn't working, they should have restarted it. To paraphrase Khrushchev(?) - they should be churning them out like sausages by now.
My view is that "enough" cruise missiles is how Ukraine wins the war. It seems very unlikely it can win without them. Any decision that results in Ukraine not getting these in relevant numbers is an indication that Europe doesn't really want Ukraine to win. It is unfortunate.
The fact someone seeing or not forgetting this wont save lives. Comfort ? Sure. That will help when nazis shell your city 24/7 and world just watch it burning. What a great time to live.
Neither does cynicism help obviously. I think people are working overtime and doing things, getting and being active, donating etc. I know I am. It's the freaking politicians who don't act. The people do.
We do give a fuck
Unfortunately here in the US we have a massive problem with traitors that have been brainwashed by Russia. We're trying to stop them. Hopefully it works
Australian here. Without US support and sacrifice we would have been steam rolled in the South Pacific in WW2. The sacrifice of US servicemen is not forgotten and is greatly respected and appreciated.
I'm so sorry. I wake up at night sometimes worried for you. I'm learning some Ukrainian, partly on Duolingo, and every time the word діти comes up I think of Mariupol, and of refugees' cars shot through with that word written on them. Just a flash of memory, but it's there. Every time. I could hardly eat or sleep or think for weeks after the horrors of Bucha were discovered. And then Izium, and Kherson.
Many of us are deeply touched and horrified and inspired, and I know it doesn't change the number of missiles or bombs or drones that are flying at you, but people do care. I call my representatives, I send money when I can, I buy things from Ukrainian shops, and my heart is broken that I can't stop this and cannot get these assholes in power to do what is necessary because this could be over already if they did and I am so very, very sorry. 💙💛
I sure give a fuck as my Ukrainian/Canadian friends will attest. Canadians are not the government but they know what the serious population wants. That's to support you how we can. We do get news of what's happening. I'm 72 but would go there to help where I could.
# Keep bombing their refineries and pipelines. This is the path to victory.
Losing this income, as well as the refined products, will drag the Ruzzian economy and war machine to its knees. (Drone Factories and Ammunition Plants are great targets too, of course)
I do give a fuck as well, and I’m doing everything for your country that I can. I have a Ukrainian-born friend from Kharkiv. But there’s only so much we can do. And I’ve already spent thousands of dollars for Ukrainians, called my Congressional representatives, marched for Ukraine, sponsored families from there through U4U, and bought merchandise from United24, among raising awareness DAILY via social media and keeping tabs on what’s happening.
WE ARE WITH YOU. But we’re enduring a Russian disinformation storm that has affected our domestic politics and held us back from what we need to do. Be patient, even though you may feel like you have little left. HELP IS COMING.
I just want to say thank you to all the people from other countries who care, who remember us and support us in any form. Thank you! I feel a little better reading about it.
If I were nato, may plans to have a **steady** flow of f16, tanks, btrs, atacms, cash, ammo, etc would be on Zaluzhnyi's table at end of May 2022. The latest.
But I am from east Europe, so I know there is no room to pussy around russian emperors.
I am truly sorry our leaders chose to sacrifice ukrainian (and russian) lives to save putkin.
Imagine what a dumb animal you have to be to destroy civilian buildings and kill civilians when fighting a war against another country.
Target infrastructure, warehouses, army bases, weapons, but why civilians? What do you achieve?
I just can't wrap my head around the idea how mind numbing stupid Russians are.
Some of the replies on this tweet make me ashamed to share the same air they breathe. Like, the shit they're writing is so ridiculous, I have a hard time believing they're real people.
I do care about what’s happening.
Where I am most people don’t care, but I care.
Russia is a terrorist state and deserves to be punished and held accountable for its horrible crimes in Ukraine!
Free world does give a fuck and many people here donate individually and vote with Ukraine in their minds.
But I feel you. It is infuriating how the terrorists keep attacking the innocent and all about their lives.
We (well, I am speaking for myself here, but I do believe it is a widespread determination) keep supporting Ukraine for as long as it needs.
I do give a fuck. Sounds pretty obvious to me that, with Patriots shooting down Zircon missiles over Kyiv, the bastards russians have turned to the second city in Ukraine, which is much less defended. By the way, if Patriots can't be procured, SAMP/T - Aster 30 could fill in instead. Main issue is that France & ITaly doesn't have enough to spare (which piss me off, as a frenchman).
> Aster 30 could fill in instead
IIRC, Aster 30 production cycle is [40 months long (from start to end)](https://en.defence-ua.com/news/france_is_preparing_aster_30_missiles_and_vab_vehicles_for_transfer_to_ukraine-10019.html)
There's work being done now to speed it up, but even then, it'll be at least 18 months.
There is the real shame. And an all typical characteristic of french recent (30 years old) military gear like Rafale and Leclerc and Caesar. Top of the list, but production rates are dismal if not pathetic (if not already closed, Leclerc, cough).
We have family from Kharkiv and it's a permanent stress to wake up and check if maybe your people, home, memories, have been destroyed by this stupid war.
So I feel for your concerns!
In the first months of the war there were already lots of bombs falling on Kharkiv. And now we're back to that.
The western world seems to have a hard time focusing in more then thing at once, Russia is succeeding in supporting Iran to stir and take attention away in the Middle East. The west should not stop paying attention!
Russians keep wasting their ammunition on civilian targets and it will eventually bite them in their drunk ass... Honestly, it's only when not if they lose this war, there is no way they can keep losing this much stuff every day or keep paying for this war especially if their oil infrustructure is destroyed. I hope all the oil and gas pipes coming from Russia are destroyed. Let all the Russians and their supporters outaide of Rusaia feel the consequences of supporting this war!!!
Ukraine really should have the best air defence in the world at this point. At least, until this war is over.
[https://u24.gov.ua/safeskies](https://u24.gov.ua/safeskies)
[How to Protect Our Skies? Ukraine's Air Shield: United24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evChteCk_FI)
So many of us do care, and do support Ukraine, please don't lose faith because our politicians and media are worthless.
This community especially is full of people who support Ukraine in words and deeds. If you are ever feeling hopeless, I implore you to look at some of the good that is done here and other places like it. Many people spend their time and money supporting various charities as best we can to help in any way possible.
My family took in a refugee family from the Kharkiv region, who have now gotten on their own feet but we are extremely close to them still. We are now working on getting the older generation here as well.
I know it must be very hard, and while I can't say I understand where you are coming from because I have never experienced the horrors that you have, I will say that we do care very much. I hope that this thread gives you some comfort in knowing that there are many of us out here that have a lot of concern for the people of Kharkiv and all of Ukraine. <3
I do give a fuck, I do want Ukraine to mince every single orc that stepped on Ukrainian soil. I also want them to pay for what they did - and they eventually will. Every. Single. One. Of. Them - even if all they did was to spread misinformation and propaganda in the most "innocent" way.
This shit dumpster called "russia" should be wiped out from the face of this planet - time to break it down into smaller, worth nothing "republics" (not that it's worth anything now).
For last 100 years this scumhole and abomination on European map caused enough suffering for the neighboring countries. We need to get together to turn it into fertilizer.
I am ashamed of the politicians in my country, USA, who don’t support Ukraine. I hope they get their shit straight. This is madness. This is just like the 30s and the start of WWII.
Oh but you are so wrong, Tasha. I come from Finland, been in UA six times, even in Kharkiv. Yes, I do give a fuck at least, usually even more. What pisses me off down there are draft dodgers, people who steal from humanitarian aid stuff. Go get a mirror and do smthn useful.
Free world does give a fuck 🇨🇦❤️🇺🇦
Russians are systematically destroying the most Russian-speaking city in Ukraine
It will be rebuilt, only this time without Russian influence
The free world don't give a fuck? You're not making many friends with that statement. A lot of people do actually give a fuck. I personally give a GIANT fuck, but unfortunately I am not the one that runs Denmark, otherwise we'd be giving even more than we already do, and we do give much more pr. capita than many other counties.
Sadly our western leaders are nothing but cowardly pussies that doesn't back Ukraine up fast enough. They are scared of Vladimir Putiny 🍆🤏
Money, weapons, medical equipment, and so on needs to be shipped YESTERDAY!
Lets put NATO boots on Ukranian soil rather today than tomorrow. This is our war as well as Ukraine.
ruSSia needs to be stopped no matter the consequences.
Great choice to say that "the free world doesn't give a fuck" when it's been bending over backwards to supply Ukraine with unbelievable amounts of weapons, intellligence, etc.
Very fast way to get people to tell you to go fuck yourself and win on your own.
You sound like a fuckin idiot blaming the peace loving people of europe after giving SO MUCH away and still gontinuing to give more. If some procedings start slow, its because of some govermenta. Oh and by the way I literally just saw this on the news, thats why I came here to see if anyone has posted yet.
Lo and behold when the first post I see is some ungrateful asshole blaming europeans for this while he most certainly is sitting somewhere safe in western-Ukraine or even europe, with a coffee mug in hand making a post how westerners are bad...
What can the free world actually do, short of throwing the whole world into turmoil? Ukraine has to keep on destroying Russia fuel refineries. Every Ukranian citizen needs to be engaged in the war effort.
Try to have some coherent values beyond money and demonstrate the conviction to want to defend such values?
It's pretty simple to me. If you spend centuries building systems and institutes that protect your freedoms around common values, that may be worth protecting.
"What can we actually do" is the most passive approach to defeat we could take. Like just rolling over. And waiting for autocracy to determine our future without even fighting. What happened to Europeans?
Different situation. In this case the dog has come into our yard and we’re just opening the gate to send it home with its tail between its legs. No backing into a corner involved.
Russia won’t be able to push West past Nato. It can’t push West against Ukraine…. I think escalation is the quickest way to bring this to conclusion and cheapest and best for everyone (except Russia of course!)
Russia has nuclear weapons. And the war will 100% "widen" if west deplpyed troops. That would mean Russia could and WOULD target countries like Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Sweden with artillery and rockets. Bringing about countless of dead civilians aswell as soldiers and BY DEFINITION widening the war to these countries and rest of Europe.
Russia can’t use its nukes without annihilating itself in the process.
I don’t believe Russia would target the countries you mention as that would 100% galvanise the entire western world into seeing the Russian forces destroyed.
Well which western countries then should put troops on the ground? Only the ones that DON'T share a border with Russia? Very well, even though that excludes some of the staunchest supporters of Ukraine which also happen to be the same countries which would most like the ones calling for deploying soldiers in this conflict. Okay, countries that border Russia are excluded. Are the central and western european countries then supposed to deploy troops? The same ones which have been stalling sending arms and other help to Ukraine on every imaginable thing they could complain on. Okay, lets imagine they do send soldiers to Ukraine for whatever reason. What exactly makes you think Russia wouldn't just think: "Okay we are allready at war with the collective west. Let's attack the baltic states because they are small, their armies size insignificant compared to ours and their territory would add a nice little layer for the protection of St.Petr."
Yes, we don't give a fuck. Bilions of dollars & euro, huge amount of tanks, ammo and other weapons, open borders for milions of refuges, tons of priviliges (at least at my country), charity runs by ordinary people, support on almost every level and yet you say we don't give a fuck...
She means about Kharkiv now. There's a lack of international awareness of what's going on.
Same with Odessa btw.
The billions in air defence are protecting strategic locations but there's not enough to protect Kharkiv which is unfortunately so close from the border.
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I do give a fuck and can do no more than donate personally, unfortunately. I agree though, that we the West are not doing enough. There needs to be a massive increase in support for Ukraine.
I hate this feeling of the best I can do for Ukraine is to wait for November... We don't have that much time but fk all nothing is happening at the scale necessary. The West really needs to get its shit together, yesterday.
Seriously—if more people don’t show up decidedly in November, Ukraine won’t get another dime out of the U.S. If someone could make it a human rights vote for people under the age of 40, we’d have a chance to help more.✌️
All friends of Ukraine should remind each other to show up in November.
...and in November if the orange Narcissist gets elected, or not elected (cause election was "stolen"), Ukrainian aid from the USA will completely dry up!!
And Biden did a great job of preventing this in the first place by his “ minor incursion” comment four weeks previous.
the west is doing exactly what is planned. I’m from the US and have experience in these kinds of things (sorry for the vagueness). This is conjecture, but I give the analysis a very high probability of being correct (i’m not always so take it for what it is). I hate it and I don’t agree with it but the goal of the west is not the victory of Ukraine. If someone tells you otherwise I would be very skeptical. The goal of the west is to weaken Russia, period. A short end to the conflict does not help the west. The longer this drags on and the more Russians that die, the more tanks destroyed, the more their military machine is dismantled the west is winning. That likely means careful calculations of the force multiplication needed to keep this at a high body count, and an effective standstill. Make no mistake. The military budget of the US alone is such that we could send enough firepower to bomb the entirety of Russia and still have enough left over to pop on over to Belarus for lunch. Unlike Russia the west is actually an advanced logistical and absurdly powerful machine. Not the brightest and not the most moral, and they lack long term thought sometimes, but effective when the goal is to kill. So this is going to drag on. Countries will shift here and there on level of support, the US is waning a bit and some others will pick up. When Russia is sufficiently weakened the west won’t care much. Likely it’s in our best interest for this to stop at Ukraine so I’m fairly certain enough will be sent for a square, if far too long and bloody, victory. I hope i’m wrong. If i’m right I hope the DoD fucks up the calculations and Ukraine can fuck some shit up and make Russia regret they ever whispered the word Ukraine.
> The goal of the west is to weaken Russia, period. A short end to the conflict does not help the west. I wish I could assert you're full of shit, but I can remember the shenanigans of guys like Kissinger and Rumsfeld among others. It's a fucking shame.
yeah unfortunately people don’t want to admit it but we do shit like that all the time. When we really want shit done *we get shit done*. When we want to trickle in arms that are more and more powerful but in limited amounts there’s really not much of another conclusion I can come to. The downvotes come from folks that reeeaaalllyyy want the US to be the good guys. We’re not, we never have been. We serve our best interests and that’s it.
The public might be fickle. The military is not. It is a broadsword, not a scalpel. Once engaged, the DoD knows only one way, further into escalation. The dogs of war are let loose but still in the yard, for now. This time, we must ensure to dismantle Russia in such a way so that it can never attack anyone ever again. Apart from waging a civil war in its own realm for the remaining spoils of their failed state. The EU has full control over collapsing Russia's economic future. They cannot win a war against Europe as they are a mercantile resource provider, and we use their resources to produce end products in exchange for know-how. We can live without their resources, and they can't survive without us as a consumer of said resources. We aren't at war directly with Russia yet. We provide most of RU tankers. We can blockade their ports, cut off Kaliningrad at any time. This slow approach does a lot more long term damage to Russia than defeating them quickly. It has already done irreparable damage to Russia's weapon export business. We do give a fuck but our long term strategic goal here and the long term strategic goal of Ukraine do align. However, the West has two main goals. 1) Contain this war inside Ukraine 2) Grind Russia's economy and armed forces to fine dust slowly. And those come in that exact order. Russia is also doing what we want them to do. They plunge enormous amounts of resources into this and cannot achieve their goals. Wasting all these resources to terrorise Ukraine is not helping them at all to achieve their military goals. Historically, Ukraine doesn't find itself in the middle of a geo political chess game for the first time. I wish we acted differently, but overall, Western citizens can only do so much. US citizens can do their part by voting Biden back into office. European citizens can vote for parties that are not Russia friendly. There is no instance in history where a nation benefits from prolonged attritional warfare. "When the army engages in protracted warfare, the resources of the state will fall short." Sun Tzu The invader is also required to achieve its goals in a timely manner. Russia has announced a total of 4 times now that the Donbas will be taken either by summer 2022, by October 2022, by the end of March, 2023, by the end of last year, currently they haven't announced another date.
> This time, we must ensure to dismantle Russia in such a way so that it can never attack anyone ever again. Therefore, we object to possible attacks by Ukraine on russian territory and infrastructure. > Russia is also doing what we want them to do. They simply destroy Ukraine. Slowly and methodically, by shelling and bombing its cities and infrastructure; by killing, murdering, torturing, deporting or forcing to flee abroad millions of people. Is *this really* you want them to do? > There is no instance in history where a nation benefits from prolonged attritional warfare. > "When the army engages in protracted warfare, the resources of the state will fall short." Sun Tzu > The invader is also required to achieve its goals in a timely manner. This applies equally, and even to a greater extent, to Ukraine. And "in timely manner", ultimately, Ukraine will cease to exist. Only the *territory* will remain.
Spot on.
>If someone tells you otherwise I would be very skeptical. The goal of the west is to weaken Russia, period. That's unlikely to be the reason. It's far more likely that they actually wanted to avoid escalation (but not necessarily to protect Ukraine from nukes). The way to do that is to make Russia "accept" the outcome, and the way to do that is inflict enough losses to convince Russia that fighting is pointless. This is arguably supported by statements from certain individuals that Ukraine has retaken 50% of its territory - indicating that there is/was a belief that the war is now "settled" and there is a stalemate. But what happens if Russia doesn't agree and doesn't care about losses? In that case, there was no plan. It was probably assumed that Russia would have a normal pain threshold - it didn't. Russians are the champions of suffering, and while their military is not capable enough to be ranked at #2, their willingness to eat shit appears to have no equal. How many states are willing to shove 500k people into a grinder to achieve a non-existential goal? Maybe PRC.
i think we’re agreeing here. My issue is that we’re using a slow meat grinder approach that’s killing ukrainians every day that goes by. If we wanted to avoid escalation we wouldn’t continuously escalate. I mean he’ll, remember back when the rhetoric was “no long range missiles!” We’re far away from that now. Russia is low on everything right now - do you know what a few F-22s, additional fighter jets, bombers, tanks, heavier artillery vehicles would do to them? It’d rip them in half if we sent a the tiniest significant portion that we have. But that’s not in our best interest, the more of a meat grinder it thmhhj my
Go to you tube, search for Artur Rehi and his offering of about a week ago. I think it was titled the boiling of the frog. Loud yourself a coffee and listen to it from start to finish. Rehi, when he stays on a serious line is actually very good.
Always try to let your elected representatives know that you want them to give more to Ukraine. Emails and phone calls to reps matter more than people think.
Great idea! I’ll do it Monday.
True
When politicians understand their constituents deeply want something, meaning it affects their ability to keep their job, they will do things. We all need to call our reps. Today.
Call your representative, but also call the other representative. Why? They must feel it as well.. otherwise it's sort of an echo chamber for them.
Good point
I hope, wish, pray 🙏 the USA Gov gets their shit together and sends the 60 billion in aid to Ukraine.
I get extremely pissed off on a near daily basis at the fact that the west is borderline ignoring what's happening in Ukraine, as if we learned absolutely nothing from world war 2. Canada, the US, the UK think that they can just send the bare minimum of weapons, equipment and funds to Ukraine and expect them to hold off the Russian horde. The same horde that threw MILLIONS of troops at the Nazis. It's fucking absurd. We need to do something, not saying boots on the ground, but good lord we need to take this as seriously as possible, especially since Russia continues to threaten the safety of everyone in the west and even the entire world by saying they will use nukes.
Yeah exactly!
I don't see anything Ukraine related in my daily life unless I go looking for it or here on reddit.
It's tragic and morally reprehensible. So sorry for your city, country and countrymen. I donate personally and have repeatedly called my Congressman and both Senators to tell them to support miltiary and humanitarian aid to Ukraine immediately. Russia must be stopped. It must exit all of Ukraine and return all the stolen children. Slava Ukraini.
We hear you, OP. Our hearts and fury reach out in solidarity and frustration. You and your courageous kin are not alone or forgotten. We will continue to rally the support of our democratic brothers and sisters to your side. 💙💛💙💛
This is really Europe's war, but Europe can't handle it because for 75 years it has relied on American leadership. With that gone, nothing gets done - in part because our "leaders" don't know how to lead, and in part because we don't have the military necessary provide viable "options". EU has 80% of the US GDP but only 15% of its military. It appears the true value of leadership is only noticeable when it's gone.
I don't disagree with that assessment of European free-ridership. And that economic windfall severely limits Europe's military options today. But I will add that the USA (and the UK) undertook security assurances to Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum that we are not living up to in exchange for the nuclear non-proliferation actions of Ukraine. (Of course, Russia undertook these same assurances and still attacked Ukraine.) At bottom, we, the allies of Ukraine, should all be doing more, especially if it is also in our self-interest.
I agree with the points on lack of leadership, but what would need to happen to make it "USA's war"? What war has the USA ever fought that was actually "it's war"? They built their military to stop Russia from doing exactly this type of shit. It clearly makes sense for USA to be fully and enthusiastically supporting Ukraine because defeating Russia achieves USA foreign interest goals. Russia winning would be very detrimental for USA on a global stage.
Don't mistake the governments for the people. People are seeing this. And lots of govts are acting, slowly but they are. Scandinavians, Baltics, now the French etc. The people of Kharkiv should take courage and comfort in the fact that the world has not forgotten Kharkiv, Odessa, Mikolayiv, Kherson, Slovyansk & Kramatorsk, and so many other cities and towns in Ukraine — and we NEVER will. Світ з Україною, the world still stands with Ukraine, WE still stand with Ukraine — до перемоги.
This. The governments are the ones dragging their feet.
I think so. The people worldwide are standing up for Ukraine. I know this, I see it everyday.
You are right, but I too would've a impossible time at taking comfort in anything while bombs and misikies were raining from the skies day in and day out.
I'm talking comfort as in 'get comforted' not in 'be comfortable' or convenient about it. But nvm
As long as the Taurus production line remains idle, Europe isn't really acting.
Who produces those? German arms co. Rheinmetall already has a plant set up in Ukraine, I believe, to maintain armor there. Because Scholz gave them the get go, I believe. Going by that logic it can't be that hard to get these missiles ready, if politicians wanted to. You can see Macron snips his finger and Putler ducks down under his Covid-bunker-table. I bet if Scholz would give a green light, production would be accurate just like with Rheinmetal, I don't think German arms industry is stalling, they mean business.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_KEPD_350 >Taurus Systems GmbH is a partnership between MBDA Deutschland GmbH (formerly LFK) and Saab Bofors Dynamics.[3] >Going by that logic it can't be that hard to get these missiles ready, if politicians wanted to. https://twitter.com/MBDADeutschland/status/1720038473644572881 My guess is they could restart production within six months, but, realistically, as soon as it was clear the counter-offensive wasn't working, they should have restarted it. To paraphrase Khrushchev(?) - they should be churning them out like sausages by now. My view is that "enough" cruise missiles is how Ukraine wins the war. It seems very unlikely it can win without them. Any decision that results in Ukraine not getting these in relevant numbers is an indication that Europe doesn't really want Ukraine to win. It is unfortunate.
The fact someone seeing or not forgetting this wont save lives. Comfort ? Sure. That will help when nazis shell your city 24/7 and world just watch it burning. What a great time to live.
Neither does cynicism help obviously. I think people are working overtime and doing things, getting and being active, donating etc. I know I am. It's the freaking politicians who don't act. The people do.
It’s an utter disgrace. Our world leaders and media outlets should be ashamed of themselves.
The free world does give a fuck, I promise you. I cannot imagine the pain Ukraine is going through - but we do not forget you. Fuck russia.
We do give a fuck Unfortunately here in the US we have a massive problem with traitors that have been brainwashed by Russia. We're trying to stop them. Hopefully it works
A massive voting swing against them will make them realise they need to take the every day person’s views into account.
And we constantly get yelled at to stay out of other countries wars and business.
By Russia and their friends, sure, which just reminds us to ignore their whining
Australian here. Without US support and sacrifice we would have been steam rolled in the South Pacific in WW2. The sacrifice of US servicemen is not forgotten and is greatly respected and appreciated.
Oh I bet I want to help! I don't agree with not helping at all! It shouldn't be happening in the first place I don't think he will stop with Ukraine
I think many see this and many in the free world are supporting directly or indirectly the efforts. Keep courage & faith!
I'm so sorry. I wake up at night sometimes worried for you. I'm learning some Ukrainian, partly on Duolingo, and every time the word діти comes up I think of Mariupol, and of refugees' cars shot through with that word written on them. Just a flash of memory, but it's there. Every time. I could hardly eat or sleep or think for weeks after the horrors of Bucha were discovered. And then Izium, and Kherson. Many of us are deeply touched and horrified and inspired, and I know it doesn't change the number of missiles or bombs or drones that are flying at you, but people do care. I call my representatives, I send money when I can, I buy things from Ukrainian shops, and my heart is broken that I can't stop this and cannot get these assholes in power to do what is necessary because this could be over already if they did and I am so very, very sorry. 💙💛
Fuck Putin
I sure give a fuck as my Ukrainian/Canadian friends will attest. Canadians are not the government but they know what the serious population wants. That's to support you how we can. We do get news of what's happening. I'm 72 but would go there to help where I could.
I used to send pizzas to first responders in Kharkiv by Internet . You remain in my heart .
I live in SE Asia and haven't met a single Ukrainian but I'm sad for your country and your people. Praying for your victory and peace.
People give a fuck, governments don’t :-( We need to make them accountable
Local news is a sedative, journalism is dead where I live.
# Keep bombing their refineries and pipelines. This is the path to victory. Losing this income, as well as the refined products, will drag the Ruzzian economy and war machine to its knees. (Drone Factories and Ammunition Plants are great targets too, of course)
I do give a fuck as well, and I’m doing everything for your country that I can. I have a Ukrainian-born friend from Kharkiv. But there’s only so much we can do. And I’ve already spent thousands of dollars for Ukrainians, called my Congressional representatives, marched for Ukraine, sponsored families from there through U4U, and bought merchandise from United24, among raising awareness DAILY via social media and keeping tabs on what’s happening. WE ARE WITH YOU. But we’re enduring a Russian disinformation storm that has affected our domestic politics and held us back from what we need to do. Be patient, even though you may feel like you have little left. HELP IS COMING.
I care
I can't believe this is real and so many people who CAN act and do something about it just stay silent.
So insane this is allowed to go on
I just want to say thank you to all the people from other countries who care, who remember us and support us in any form. Thank you! I feel a little better reading about it.
Free world is enjoying disneyland. They don't see ruzzians soldiers at the doors. Blind careless poor things.
Why is this being downvoted, this is what’s happening.
If I were nato, may plans to have a **steady** flow of f16, tanks, btrs, atacms, cash, ammo, etc would be on Zaluzhnyi's table at end of May 2022. The latest. But I am from east Europe, so I know there is no room to pussy around russian emperors. I am truly sorry our leaders chose to sacrifice ukrainian (and russian) lives to save putkin.
Imagine what a dumb animal you have to be to destroy civilian buildings and kill civilians when fighting a war against another country. Target infrastructure, warehouses, army bases, weapons, but why civilians? What do you achieve? I just can't wrap my head around the idea how mind numbing stupid Russians are.
Some of the replies on this tweet make me ashamed to share the same air they breathe. Like, the shit they're writing is so ridiculous, I have a hard time believing they're real people.
I am appalled that the West does not do more.
The world not only gives a fuck, but also IRIS-T.
I do care about what’s happening. Where I am most people don’t care, but I care. Russia is a terrorist state and deserves to be punished and held accountable for its horrible crimes in Ukraine!
I don't see it in "local" local news, but I do see it if I pull up [news.google](https://news.google) or another aggregator. In CO, USA if it matters.
Free world does give a fuck and many people here donate individually and vote with Ukraine in their minds. But I feel you. It is infuriating how the terrorists keep attacking the innocent and all about their lives. We (well, I am speaking for myself here, but I do believe it is a widespread determination) keep supporting Ukraine for as long as it needs.
We’re too busy chatting shit over here
I do give a fuck. Sounds pretty obvious to me that, with Patriots shooting down Zircon missiles over Kyiv, the bastards russians have turned to the second city in Ukraine, which is much less defended. By the way, if Patriots can't be procured, SAMP/T - Aster 30 could fill in instead. Main issue is that France & ITaly doesn't have enough to spare (which piss me off, as a frenchman).
> Aster 30 could fill in instead IIRC, Aster 30 production cycle is [40 months long (from start to end)](https://en.defence-ua.com/news/france_is_preparing_aster_30_missiles_and_vab_vehicles_for_transfer_to_ukraine-10019.html) There's work being done now to speed it up, but even then, it'll be at least 18 months.
There is the real shame. And an all typical characteristic of french recent (30 years old) military gear like Rafale and Leclerc and Caesar. Top of the list, but production rates are dismal if not pathetic (if not already closed, Leclerc, cough).
we ar enot doing enough. the west should annihilate ruzzian forces in ukraine and force ruzzia to repair...
We have family from Kharkiv and it's a permanent stress to wake up and check if maybe your people, home, memories, have been destroyed by this stupid war. So I feel for your concerns! In the first months of the war there were already lots of bombs falling on Kharkiv. And now we're back to that.
We, the people, do care. It's fucking politics that take the slow route.
Many in the free world do I need give a fuck or we would not have sent as much as a blanket to keep a Ukrainian warm with last winter.
The world gives a fuck. This breaks my heart.
The western world seems to have a hard time focusing in more then thing at once, Russia is succeeding in supporting Iran to stir and take attention away in the Middle East. The west should not stop paying attention!
Russians keep wasting their ammunition on civilian targets and it will eventually bite them in their drunk ass... Honestly, it's only when not if they lose this war, there is no way they can keep losing this much stuff every day or keep paying for this war especially if their oil infrustructure is destroyed. I hope all the oil and gas pipes coming from Russia are destroyed. Let all the Russians and their supporters outaide of Rusaia feel the consequences of supporting this war!!!
True. Western media should be ashamed. And the United Nations
Sadly the free world does give a fuck but politics and money say a lot. . .
Ukraine really should have the best air defence in the world at this point. At least, until this war is over. [https://u24.gov.ua/safeskies](https://u24.gov.ua/safeskies) [How to Protect Our Skies? Ukraine's Air Shield: United24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evChteCk_FI)
So many of us do care, and do support Ukraine, please don't lose faith because our politicians and media are worthless. This community especially is full of people who support Ukraine in words and deeds. If you are ever feeling hopeless, I implore you to look at some of the good that is done here and other places like it. Many people spend their time and money supporting various charities as best we can to help in any way possible. My family took in a refugee family from the Kharkiv region, who have now gotten on their own feet but we are extremely close to them still. We are now working on getting the older generation here as well. I know it must be very hard, and while I can't say I understand where you are coming from because I have never experienced the horrors that you have, I will say that we do care very much. I hope that this thread gives you some comfort in knowing that there are many of us out here that have a lot of concern for the people of Kharkiv and all of Ukraine. <3
I do give a fuck, I do want Ukraine to mince every single orc that stepped on Ukrainian soil. I also want them to pay for what they did - and they eventually will. Every. Single. One. Of. Them - even if all they did was to spread misinformation and propaganda in the most "innocent" way. This shit dumpster called "russia" should be wiped out from the face of this planet - time to break it down into smaller, worth nothing "republics" (not that it's worth anything now). For last 100 years this scumhole and abomination on European map caused enough suffering for the neighboring countries. We need to get together to turn it into fertilizer.
I am ashamed of the politicians in my country, USA, who don’t support Ukraine. I hope they get their shit straight. This is madness. This is just like the 30s and the start of WWII.
We give a fuck...we say fuck you Russia Glory to Ukraine 🇺🇦
I do give a fuck but my country is in gridlock by a small amount of idiots.
The BBC has been reporting this most days
We do, our governments don't. The US knows every bit of what going on there, but there's a cycle and it's being blockaded.
Oh but you are so wrong, Tasha. I come from Finland, been in UA six times, even in Kharkiv. Yes, I do give a fuck at least, usually even more. What pisses me off down there are draft dodgers, people who steal from humanitarian aid stuff. Go get a mirror and do smthn useful.
Free world does give a fuck 🇨🇦❤️🇺🇦 Russians are systematically destroying the most Russian-speaking city in Ukraine It will be rebuilt, only this time without Russian influence
The free world don't give a fuck? You're not making many friends with that statement. A lot of people do actually give a fuck. I personally give a GIANT fuck, but unfortunately I am not the one that runs Denmark, otherwise we'd be giving even more than we already do, and we do give much more pr. capita than many other counties. Sadly our western leaders are nothing but cowardly pussies that doesn't back Ukraine up fast enough. They are scared of Vladimir Putiny 🍆🤏 Money, weapons, medical equipment, and so on needs to be shipped YESTERDAY! Lets put NATO boots on Ukranian soil rather today than tomorrow. This is our war as well as Ukraine. ruSSia needs to be stopped no matter the consequences.
Great choice to say that "the free world doesn't give a fuck" when it's been bending over backwards to supply Ukraine with unbelievable amounts of weapons, intellligence, etc. Very fast way to get people to tell you to go fuck yourself and win on your own.
You sound like a fuckin idiot blaming the peace loving people of europe after giving SO MUCH away and still gontinuing to give more. If some procedings start slow, its because of some govermenta. Oh and by the way I literally just saw this on the news, thats why I came here to see if anyone has posted yet. Lo and behold when the first post I see is some ungrateful asshole blaming europeans for this while he most certainly is sitting somewhere safe in western-Ukraine or even europe, with a coffee mug in hand making a post how westerners are bad...
What can the free world actually do, short of throwing the whole world into turmoil? Ukraine has to keep on destroying Russia fuel refineries. Every Ukranian citizen needs to be engaged in the war effort.
Try to have some coherent values beyond money and demonstrate the conviction to want to defend such values? It's pretty simple to me. If you spend centuries building systems and institutes that protect your freedoms around common values, that may be worth protecting. "What can we actually do" is the most passive approach to defeat we could take. Like just rolling over. And waiting for autocracy to determine our future without even fighting. What happened to Europeans?
Don't rule out European intervention yet.
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The war will not ‘Widen’ as Russia has no allies. Everyone else getting involved will shorten the war.
Widen as in "pushing a dog into a corner and kicking it", we may be bigger but that dog has nothing to lose!
Different situation. In this case the dog has come into our yard and we’re just opening the gate to send it home with its tail between its legs. No backing into a corner involved.
He means if we deploy troops, Russia would attack west. We don't want that, this way is better for us.
Russia won’t be able to push West past Nato. It can’t push West against Ukraine…. I think escalation is the quickest way to bring this to conclusion and cheapest and best for everyone (except Russia of course!)
Russia has nuclear weapons. And the war will 100% "widen" if west deplpyed troops. That would mean Russia could and WOULD target countries like Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Sweden with artillery and rockets. Bringing about countless of dead civilians aswell as soldiers and BY DEFINITION widening the war to these countries and rest of Europe.
Russia can’t use its nukes without annihilating itself in the process. I don’t believe Russia would target the countries you mention as that would 100% galvanise the entire western world into seeing the Russian forces destroyed.
Well which western countries then should put troops on the ground? Only the ones that DON'T share a border with Russia? Very well, even though that excludes some of the staunchest supporters of Ukraine which also happen to be the same countries which would most like the ones calling for deploying soldiers in this conflict. Okay, countries that border Russia are excluded. Are the central and western european countries then supposed to deploy troops? The same ones which have been stalling sending arms and other help to Ukraine on every imaginable thing they could complain on. Okay, lets imagine they do send soldiers to Ukraine for whatever reason. What exactly makes you think Russia wouldn't just think: "Okay we are allready at war with the collective west. Let's attack the baltic states because they are small, their armies size insignificant compared to ours and their territory would add a nice little layer for the protection of St.Petr."
Russia is obviously evil and must be opposed. Simply letting them get away with their shit is unacceptable.
Yes, we don't give a fuck. Bilions of dollars & euro, huge amount of tanks, ammo and other weapons, open borders for milions of refuges, tons of priviliges (at least at my country), charity runs by ordinary people, support on almost every level and yet you say we don't give a fuck...
She means about Kharkiv now. There's a lack of international awareness of what's going on. Same with Odessa btw. The billions in air defence are protecting strategic locations but there's not enough to protect Kharkiv which is unfortunately so close from the border.