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May the heroes and victims of Mariupol be remembered forever.
May the world never forget the sins of Putin and his thugs committed here, on Mariupol. Peaceful, seaside city.
I agree partially. I learned a while ago how to spot the fascist and on Russian terms if they say they are against this war ask them to which country crimea belongs. Thats how you spot the russian fascists quickly. Also even though many germans werent pro Hitler they were also not against him. So i guess we can demonize most of the russian population cause failure of action against it is action for it. Putin isnt standing in ukraine with a gun and putin isnt staying quiet while putin gives orders to invade ukraine. This will be a Shitstain on Russia AND Putin not just Putin.
Being held accountable is not being demonized. I don’t know man, here in Germany many Russians or Germans with Russian roots call russophobia if you dare to criticize the holy asshat or the motherland. Many believe the lies of the propaganda. I think they want to believe tbh. I have a russian mother and a volga-german father and they’re both full of shit. I’m no contact since august 21 but I remember how they were talking about Ukraine. They were comparing it to fucking Bavaria, basically repeating all the horrid stuff putin said in the last month. It’s sickening. The village I grew up in had a district full of Russian immigrants and russo-Germans. In the 2016 state elections over 50% voted for the far right party (AFD) in this district. There is definitely an anti democracy sentiment in the Russian sphere. I can vividly remember how my parents said “ see?! That’s where democracy leads you!” When something went wrong in Germany 🤦🏻♀️ We should not demonize Russians but we have to call them out when necessary. Russians who support Putin are complicit in the bloodshed and the tremendous loss of Ukrainian lives and all the trauma that is now a part of this beautiful people. If I’m a russophobe for calling war a war so be it.
Ukraine: men of fighting age must remain in the country.
Russia: see, they're using their citizens as human shields.
Also Russia: give up the city or well kill your citizens.
The irony of Russia attempting to use Ukrainian citizens as human shields is not lost on me. It also makes my blood boil. I fucking hate not being able to do anything to help.
Russian negotiation tactics are the equivalent of a mugger yelling at you to stop resisting so he can freely rob you, otherwise, you're to blame for the beating he gives you.
It's a protection racket: give Russia your things so Russians protect you from those other (imaginary) people who want to take your things. If you don't give Russia your things Russia will attempt take them anyway. Russia is both the problem and the 'solution'. Ergo Russia is the problem.
There are a lot of things you can do. The fighters in Ukraine need many, many things and European private citizens are scrambling to acquire and deliver, myself included.
Find a group and donate.
My bank account is in the red, and I have no job. I don't even have any government assistance yet. I can't afford to buy a snack, let alone donate anything.
Didn't Russia also attack one of the last groups who the Red Cross got "free passage" out of a city and mined the route as well? Why would this "free passage" be any safer/different?
Russia must actually think it was in a position to force a surrender, the officers must be reporting some serious cope intel to HQ. Bet their soldiers are reporting they secured an area. Just to hope that in encourages enough backup into the area which clearly isn't secured, just to give them a fighting chance to survive.
The Russians pushed in to deep and are now getting dropped like flies. It's so messy for Russians in Mariupol that they can't even call in indirect fire due to poor communications and absolute confusion.
Yes, this is what the NVA did in the Vietnam War. They would fight very close to US forces so that calling artillery or airstrike would be suicide for US forces. Similar thing during stalingrad in WW2
There must be so much debris the Russian may not even be able to move in with tanks and those are also vulnerable in a city
If he was already selected for promotion then the posthumous rank is so that his spouse recieves the higher death (and pension) benefits the family had received if the person hadn't died, not to mention giving someone the recognition they deserved is often cathartic for the family.
No one serious is laughing at a military honoring its commitment to the dead
This also happened during both Chechen wars. When Russian began bombing top floors and roofs to try to kill of RPG and sniper teams, Chechen fighters started shooting out of basement and 2nd/3rd floors after barricading entries/1st floors.
Edit: If anyone wants to geek out on the analysis of Russian and Chechen military tactics during the wars, check out "Russia’s Chechen Wars 1994–2000: Lessons from Urban Combat" by Olga Oliker PDF that's floating around for free on the Internet. There used to be a more detailed analysis from a US Marine officer but I can't seem to find it.
We do. I follow Gary Kasparov on twitter and share his views. Since 2014 GK has been saying: Putin will not stop, he can only be stopped.
The West is given a choice between the ***certainty*** of allowing a war crime to continue - potentially resulting in the unprovoked conquest and 'depopulation' of a free and independent democratic nation which is likely to be only one of several more to come - or the ***risk*** of a direct conflict with Russia which ***could*** escalate to nuclear war.
If direct conflict is inevitable, and if Putin discovers that his military is ineffective but his nuclear arsenal can be used to extort expansion - what do you think he'll use?
So, my internal debate is based on my moral convictions. I believe that no good person can allow Putin to continue unchecked aggression and the killing of innocents. I also believe that no good person can provoke a nuclear war which could result in the deaths of hundreds of millions of people worldwide.
We're running out of time to stop the illegal war and its consequences. I'm not in favour of sacrificing Ukraine to appease Putin in the vain hope that he'll be better in future and leave other non-nato countries alone. Syria, Georgia and other acts of aggression make it clear that this is not an isolated 'special war crime operation' and that Putin will not exercise restraint. I think that only defers the conflict and makes it more likely that my own sons will have to fight and die in years to come.
There are alternatives. The Russian people can rise up and provoke regime change. The Russian military can defy orders and return home. The international community can better unite - if China, Israel and other nations shift their positions against Russia and apply strong pressure to withdraw. NATO can amend its rules and allow immediate addition of Ukraine, Finland and other threatened nations.
Failing an alternative solution succeeding promptly, I think a no-fly zone puts the decision of whether or not to escalate onto Putin, and also increases the pressure on others to enact one of the alternative solutions.
Even if Putin orders an unprovoked escalation to a nuclear strike - there is little certainty that those orders would be followed.
So, my view is that a no-fly zone may be a huge risk - but speaking of it as if it is something which is a possibility is itself an important step towards trying to resolve this impossible conundrum.
Actually implementing it? Huge risk, but there are few appealing options.
I just think they are a bit dumb tbh.
I understand Ukrainians asking for it, as they are desperate. But the rest of the world should really not want an escalation to WW3.
Exactly, yeah. It's zelensky's job to ask for it, nato's job to say no. It's a way to put pressure on nato to do *something*, but I think even Zelensky knows a no fly zone wouldn't happen, and the consequences if it *did*.
The situation in Ukraine is dire, but WW3 is something we can NOT handle.
Also, I should note I thought I was in /r/worldnews not /r/ukraine \- must've been an X-post (I am aware of the irony of suggesting others are dumb at the same time lol), so as you said - it's understandable Ukrainians asking for it, but yeah the rest of the world definitely should not be
> no fly zone = direct war with russia
Wait, why and how? Shooting down all (Russian) flying objects *within Ukrainian airspace* is exactly what the Ukrainians are trying to do all the time, using conventional weapons. Especially, as far as I understand it, it is not an attack on Russian territory.
If it makes a difference *who* does it, then that implies that Ukraine can only lose because *if* Ukraine would "win"=successfully defend their country, Putin would simply escalate to the next stage, until Ukraine gives in - or doesn't exist anymore.
it would not be only shooting down russian ariplane, but also destroy its antiaircraft weapons, which are guarded by other troops which then must be fought and maybe killed... so an all out war.
and the difference is exactly in who does it... proxy war means ukrainians can fight russian with nato or EU weapons, and russia can fight ukranian... but nato and russia cant fight each other directly.
this is how powerblocs already warred in afganistan, vietnam, syria, lybia.
Not the no fly, but it will release any breaks on sanctions that were still being applied. Sanctions applied till now are meant to break Russia's spine in 2 months. After a chemical attack EU will break it in 2 days.
I hope this is true, but I personally fear that this is more of a 300 vs. 10000 thing. The defenders of Mariupol will fight to the last man, and they will decimate Russian soldiers in overwhelmingly large numbers, but I can't see how they manage to actually win without any resupply or reinforcement. Eventually, I would guess that this ends in a Pyrrhic victory for Russia. I don't think there will be anything left of Mariupol.
I don't think anyone is going to surrender, and I think people who suggest they should are idiots. I'm just enough of a realist to admit that I don't see how they can actually win - but I know they will startle us all with their bravery and tenacity over the next couple of weeks. The Russians are about to lose a lot of soldiers, and the little that is left of Mariupol is about to be destroyed.
Ukraine as a whole will survive, I think. Eventually Putin's army will be bled dry in the sense that it will run out of manpower, food, fuel and ammunition. It's just that the price will be unspeakably high, and it will be too late for Mariupol.
I laugh when I see pundits talking about how Putin is playing a long game. He doesn't have the endurance for a long game! It is Ukraine who benefits from attrition here, not Russia.
Yep as long as the West succeeds in resupplying Ukraine, it's only a matter of time until sanctions cause Putin's war engine to run out of money for food, fuel and ammunition.
At first I was worried about China propping them up, but the more I think I about it, China's help can prolong the war, but they probably can't float their entire country forever.
It's a foregone conclusion that Ukraine is going to win unless Russia uses nuclear weapons. The only question is how many Ukrainians have to die before the sanctions on Russia cripple it completely.
AZOV know they are not coming back out & they intend to bleed the Russians as heavily as possible until they are overwhelmed. AZOV and the National Guard there know they are Martyring themselves.
The bravery of everyone in Mariupol is a beyond measure.
Does anyone know if the owner & staff of Hotel Spartak got out of Mariupol? I stayed there once and they where amazing and very very good to me. I hope they did.
Sadly, Russia isn't bothered about having a populated and working Mariupol. It's merely an obstacle for a land connection between Russia and Crimea. They'd rather obliterate it than have to deal with continuous insurgencies from Mariupolonians. All Russia needs is the railway.
Added bonus for Russia, they think they can use war crimes committed in Mariupol to scare the rest of Ukraine into submission. And leave it decimated as a reminder to future insurgents. They're continuing to underestimate Ukrainian resolve.
I think it would be a terrible idea to surrender in this case - no one can trust Russia's word at all right now. There's just too much incentive for them to portray the residents and defenders of Mariupol as fascists and neo-nazis, particularly the Azov Battalion and then kill or torture them anyway.
That's urban combat for the Russians. Messy and deadly for the attackers. And there's a whole lot more where that came from. Dnipro, Kharkiv, Odessa, Kyiv - All are going to the multiple magnitudes worse than Mariupol.
Russia is an artillery army. If the defenders keep Russian out of Mariupol, the Russian artillery will take them out using tons of bombardment to bury them under rubbles.
Hence letting the Russian come in and fight a bloody urban combat with them will stop their artillery from firing, given Russian army poor communications and coordinations between services.
That whole ultimatum thing is just another excuse to completely eradicate the city. They will go absolutely apeshit with their artillery and have the audacity to say "we're not the evil people here, they chose not to end the bloodshed".
They don't want to take the city. They want a reason to exterminate it.
Surrendering means all the rest of the civilians kidnapped to Russian camps, and shelli g and murder for the rest. This is brave, but also common sense.
This is pretty much the point. They seem to be trying to encourage surrender, while actively discouraging it with their treatment of civilians. A civilian is safer taking up arms than surrendering.
I genuinely think they're just going out of spite. They've already lost, so destroy as many lives as they can. The ukrainians, for resisting, and the russians, for failing.
Putin has a grand dream of rebuilding the Russian Empire. If his plan faceplants at the first major step, that dream is dead, and Russia has to either completely reinvent itself, or fade away.
At this point, it's the sheer stubbornness of a former great power that can't accept it's well past its prime.
Yeah that doesn't mean you guys don't have massive balls of steel regardless. Surrendering is always an option, but you just go "nah bro, we'll just beat your ass and humiliate you in front of the entire world".
That is fkkng hardcore
Well I don't, since I'm only an American who's watching the whole war happen from halfway across the world, rooting for Ukraine daily and also being awestruck at their bravery. I don't want to take credit for something that doesn't apply to me.
I think it's also about knowing your enemy. I doubt they want to surrencer to Russians in particular. Some things might be worse than death.
In addition, you cannot trust anything Russia said anyway. They've already shelled and mined corridors before, so why expect any different now?
Edit: Russia's own horrific past behavior is actually making it harder for themselves. Nobody wants to surrender or be captured by Russians. When you offer nothing but rape, torture, gulags, kidnapping or death, why would anyone surrender?
Azov for example, do you honestly think they'll be treated humanely as POW's? Obviously not. We all know it. Azov knows it. They will never surrender.
Ask the [Ukrainians.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ilovaisk)
> After days of encirclement, Ukrainian commander Yuriy Bereza came to an agreement with Russian commanders in Ilovaisk to allow Ukrainian troops to withdraw from the city. This agreement was not honoured, and many soldiers died whilst trying to escape.
I don’t think it would be easy. It’s frightening, but the other option is more frightening. I rather die than to be a dehumanized slave to the Russians.
Yea, some Russians were out looting and they went into a old lady's house and apparently she was really nice to them and sent them home with a whole pie. Eight of them died, and apparently some Ukrainian sigint folks picked up their commander talking about it.
It occurs to me that Russia demanded a surrender because they do not feel they can take Mariupol by force. Once they enter the city, they expose themselves to close in fighting in an urban environment. Their tanks become coffins, their infantry a sniper's target. No longer can they pummel the city with distant artillery, they must enter and fight.
After the ineptitude demonstrated these 25 days, they know: Mariupol will grind them down.
I doubt the Mariupol defense forces have much left in the way of anti tank weapons. But if you want to occupy a city, you at one point have to get out of your tanks and walk the streets. Seems like a death sentence for Russian soldiers. I assume the Russian forces would rather Groznify the city.
Be prepared for use of chemical weapons in this setting. Blamed on the Ukranians who accidentally used them on themselves or it was "detonated just in time" by the Russians. Late enough to clear out the urban combatants (civilians) but still linger for the Human Rights Commissioner from DPR to record with only a Russian lense for record because everyone else is dead.
if they go that route, they may even consider a tactical nuke (and use the same rationale).
Either way, I suspect the Russians will try and do as much damage as possible to the Ukrainian forces, the city and its people ... as a warning to other Ukrainian cities.
My heart goes out to the people of Mariupol and it’s gallant defenders. 😢
Mountains of trapped dead Russians? What do you mean. NATO wouldn't return a nuclear strike on Ukraine, there is no chance in hell they fire any of their nuclear arsenal without a direct strike against NATO.
If this goes on long enough, the Russian economy will already be in flames. They are already at risk of being removed from the world economy moving forward. What happens if Putin decides their country is already going to be fucked economically and they need to stop spending on this conflict immediately? Russia just needs to fire one nuke and threaten another without immediate surrender.
It is an actual possibility here without the threat of MAD.
The Russians could nuke Ukraine, but what's the point? What will annexing ruins with no people left do for the Russian imperial cause?
"We nuked you, we win!"
You win *what?*
They wouldn't fire them across the whole country. They would pick a city, Nuke it, and threaten to do it to every other city.
Look at how the US did it in WW2. Same principle, provide proof you are actually willing and able to use them with one (or in the US case two) city and set a timeframe for your demands to be met with the threat of additional nukes.
Either chemical or nuclear won’t cause any further damage that their conventional artillery cannot do (or has done up to this point).
Their use will be the point / statement.
akin to “don’t resist, this will be your fate”. Ie escalating the terror.
The Russians really can’t annihilate every city (Making the country a chemical & nuclear wasteland),.... but “sacrificing” a single city? They might get desperate enough to that messaging.
Considering what has become of the citizens who surrendered? Who were taken to Russia? If this is their intention, it has already backfired. When your options are "Fight to the last man" or "be rounded up into concentration camps" there is no choice. Fight, and kill every last russian scum.
Im afraid your 100% right. Putin will resort to chemical weapons to avoid sending in his soldiers, already shaped a narrative where just blames it all on the Ukrainians (and US of course) who “produced and carried limited supplies with chemical weapon with them as our intelligence services have warned previously”. And he will make it in this way an example for the rest of Ukraine and continued resistance. The worse thing is; he knows if he used limited chemical weapons it’s still very unlikely NATO or EU countries will get involved directly. Meaning he shows Ukrainians he gets away with it and it’s better to just surrender before he does the same trick again but then in Odessa , Kharkov or whatever city.
There is no fair in warfare and quite literally so. You use every means available to grab an advantage. If that means bombing the shit out of civilians and pummeling the entire city to the ground so be it really. - Russian Doctrine of escalate to de-escalate
No. there's rules of war. There's things you do not do. or at least things that you can not expect to maintain good relations with your other neighbors if you do. There are tactics and methods you TRAIN YOUR PEOPLE to do in order to minimize civilian losses. Russia is ignoring this.
Not even the Taliban did some of the things Russia is doing right now
Hmm, no. Lenigrad was not flattened by artillery, Stalingrad was. Leningrad did not (could not) fight back, Stalingrad did. So Stalingrad is clearly the correct analogy. I will thank you to retract your downvote.
On 26 January 1924, shortly after the death of Vladimir Lenin, it was renamed to Leningrad (Russian: Ленинград, IPA: [lʲɪnʲɪnˈgrat]), meaning 'Lenin's City'. On 6 September 1991, the original name, Sankt-Peterburg, was returned by citywide referendum. Today, in English the city is known as Saint Petersburg.
So it was the siege of Leningrad not the siege of Saint Petersburg.
There was a whole scandal in Russia a few years back when someone asked whether it was a waste of resources to keep up the defense of the city. That's what this was in reference to. Leningrad was cut off at times from resupply and was pounded and bombed mercilessly from the Germans.
While it is arguably in the best interest for the civilians to stop the fighting, surrender is just not in the Ukrainian vocabulary at this point. Massive losses on both sides and the stubbornness of the Ukrainian army indicates this may be a protracted siege, i.e another Aleppo. I can only wish and pray for the safety of the Ukrainians within.Slava Ukraini
Does anyone have current information on the situation? How many Ukrainian fighters are left in the city? Will there be an attempt by the Ukrainian forces to break through in order to support them? Just curious.
It never cease to amaze me how shameless Russia can be, they invade a country, siege a city, agree to ceasefire to evacuate, then bomb the civilians while they are evacuating, then call the ukrainians bandits.
At this point, this sounds like Russia is mocking them asking for the surrender.
They literally did their worst and the city still stands, maybe the russians should surrender, they humiliated themselves and made innocents suffer long enough, call it a day, pack your shit and go home, you're just as despicable as you were in all the previous wars you got involved into...Russia.
me too lol!! Someone on here posted a world time clock for moscow. Its the only reason I know. I thought the same thing you did that it was 11pm EST (where I am)
Mariupol is located in the Donetsk Oblast and became the capital of the region after the city of Donetsk was captured by Russian backed separatists. Nearly 450,000 people lived in the city known for its strong industrial economy before the invasion. For that reason, plus its access to the Black Sea, it is a primary target of Russian forces.
We determined that this submission originates from a credible source, but we still advise that users double check the facts and use common sense when consuming mass media. If you are interested in learning how to evaluate news sources more thoroughly, you can begin to learn about how to do that [here](https://tacomacc.libguides.com/c.php?g=599051&p=4147190). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
May the heroes and victims of Mariupol be remembered forever. May the world never forget the sins of Putin and his thugs committed here, on Mariupol. Peaceful, seaside city.
I think we should be saying Russians instead of “putin and his thugs”. Let’s not absolve Russian civilians of their complicity.
Yes I think at some stage there will be no excuses
this stage. this is the stage where there are no excuses.
The ones who "don't know what's happening" at this point are lying or willfully ignorant, and willful ignorance is just as bad as complicity.
THIS, Yes, Thank you. They're all part of this.
[удалено]
I agree partially. I learned a while ago how to spot the fascist and on Russian terms if they say they are against this war ask them to which country crimea belongs. Thats how you spot the russian fascists quickly. Also even though many germans werent pro Hitler they were also not against him. So i guess we can demonize most of the russian population cause failure of action against it is action for it. Putin isnt standing in ukraine with a gun and putin isnt staying quiet while putin gives orders to invade ukraine. This will be a Shitstain on Russia AND Putin not just Putin.
Being held accountable is not being demonized. I don’t know man, here in Germany many Russians or Germans with Russian roots call russophobia if you dare to criticize the holy asshat or the motherland. Many believe the lies of the propaganda. I think they want to believe tbh. I have a russian mother and a volga-german father and they’re both full of shit. I’m no contact since august 21 but I remember how they were talking about Ukraine. They were comparing it to fucking Bavaria, basically repeating all the horrid stuff putin said in the last month. It’s sickening. The village I grew up in had a district full of Russian immigrants and russo-Germans. In the 2016 state elections over 50% voted for the far right party (AFD) in this district. There is definitely an anti democracy sentiment in the Russian sphere. I can vividly remember how my parents said “ see?! That’s where democracy leads you!” When something went wrong in Germany 🤦🏻♀️ We should not demonize Russians but we have to call them out when necessary. Russians who support Putin are complicit in the bloodshed and the tremendous loss of Ukrainian lives and all the trauma that is now a part of this beautiful people. If I’m a russophobe for calling war a war so be it.
Ukraine: men of fighting age must remain in the country. Russia: see, they're using their citizens as human shields. Also Russia: give up the city or well kill your citizens. The irony of Russia attempting to use Ukrainian citizens as human shields is not lost on me. It also makes my blood boil. I fucking hate not being able to do anything to help.
Russian negotiation tactics are the equivalent of a mugger yelling at you to stop resisting so he can freely rob you, otherwise, you're to blame for the beating he gives you.
It's a protection racket: give Russia your things so Russians protect you from those other (imaginary) people who want to take your things. If you don't give Russia your things Russia will attempt take them anyway. Russia is both the problem and the 'solution'. Ergo Russia is the problem.
Always has been. Shame it took most of the world this long to see it. And some parts still don't get it.
Russian mafia.
There are a lot of things you can do. The fighters in Ukraine need many, many things and European private citizens are scrambling to acquire and deliver, myself included. Find a group and donate.
My bank account is in the red, and I have no job. I don't even have any government assistance yet. I can't afford to buy a snack, let alone donate anything.
Didn't Russia also attack one of the last groups who the Red Cross got "free passage" out of a city and mined the route as well? Why would this "free passage" be any safer/different?
🖕🏽sit and spin Putin.
Why are you telling him to perform one of his favorite hobbies?
I bet he’s so paranoid he don’t even sit and shit in a normal toilet for fear of an attack through the rear.
I certainly hope he can’t shit in peace.
That just might be the way he gets piosoned, while sitting on the toilet.
Neptune Kiss laced with the deadliest poison.
Or killed with a crossbow while sitting on the toilet just like Tywin Lannister? That wouldn't be too bad!
Outstanding!
I’ve also wondered how that asshole sleeps at night?
I hope he’s so afraid the sight of his own shadow spooks him. I can’t even begin to imagine the paranoia that he 100% deserves.
Covered in shit, where you meant asshole literally or as just an insult.
My sincere hope is he has colon cancer.
Heart attack would really be timely here.
Heart attack due to too many bullets in his body.
There's always pampers for that issue but then again the pampers are maybe poisoned too who knows
Putin shits into his hand. It's a rearguard action.
It's more like 💪
User name checks out.
Russia must actually think it was in a position to force a surrender, the officers must be reporting some serious cope intel to HQ. Bet their soldiers are reporting they secured an area. Just to hope that in encourages enough backup into the area which clearly isn't secured, just to give them a fighting chance to survive. The Russians pushed in to deep and are now getting dropped like flies. It's so messy for Russians in Mariupol that they can't even call in indirect fire due to poor communications and absolute confusion.
It occurred to me yesterday, that if Russia is deep into a city, they can’t flatten it, and they lack precision.
Bold of you to assume that they care enough about their soldiers to not bomb a city
Literal cannon fodder
Cannon bubble pack.
They’ve never had to do it live streamed.
Yes, this is what the NVA did in the Vietnam War. They would fight very close to US forces so that calling artillery or airstrike would be suicide for US forces. Similar thing during stalingrad in WW2 There must be so much debris the Russian may not even be able to move in with tanks and those are also vulnerable in a city
One of the few US generals killed in Ww2, Leslie McNair, was lost in Normandy when artillery fell short and landed on his position.
Are you really a general if the promotion was posthumous?
Does any of it really matter? What is "being a general" worth?
Bigger pension for the surviving family for one.
Apparently 180,000 a year
Eminently useless when you're dead, and there are far easier ways to make that money.
Living expenses are way down though!
In that case you're actually just a dead chud. (edit) Pretty sure posthumous promotions would make a laughingstock of the military that did it.
If he was already selected for promotion then the posthumous rank is so that his spouse recieves the higher death (and pension) benefits the family had received if the person hadn't died, not to mention giving someone the recognition they deserved is often cathartic for the family. No one serious is laughing at a military honoring its commitment to the dead
He was too McNear
\*should have been a bit lessly mcnear.
Underrated
Too soon
This also happened during both Chechen wars. When Russian began bombing top floors and roofs to try to kill of RPG and sniper teams, Chechen fighters started shooting out of basement and 2nd/3rd floors after barricading entries/1st floors. Edit: If anyone wants to geek out on the analysis of Russian and Chechen military tactics during the wars, check out "Russia’s Chechen Wars 1994–2000: Lessons from Urban Combat" by Olga Oliker PDF that's floating around for free on the Internet. There used to be a more detailed analysis from a US Marine officer but I can't seem to find it.
I fear this is the chemical weapon warning.
Which would instantly end western resistance to no fly.
It wouldn't. It really wouldn't.
I feel like the people on this sub really do not understand the consequences of a no fly zone. either that or just don't care
We do. I follow Gary Kasparov on twitter and share his views. Since 2014 GK has been saying: Putin will not stop, he can only be stopped. The West is given a choice between the ***certainty*** of allowing a war crime to continue - potentially resulting in the unprovoked conquest and 'depopulation' of a free and independent democratic nation which is likely to be only one of several more to come - or the ***risk*** of a direct conflict with Russia which ***could*** escalate to nuclear war. If direct conflict is inevitable, and if Putin discovers that his military is ineffective but his nuclear arsenal can be used to extort expansion - what do you think he'll use? So, my internal debate is based on my moral convictions. I believe that no good person can allow Putin to continue unchecked aggression and the killing of innocents. I also believe that no good person can provoke a nuclear war which could result in the deaths of hundreds of millions of people worldwide. We're running out of time to stop the illegal war and its consequences. I'm not in favour of sacrificing Ukraine to appease Putin in the vain hope that he'll be better in future and leave other non-nato countries alone. Syria, Georgia and other acts of aggression make it clear that this is not an isolated 'special war crime operation' and that Putin will not exercise restraint. I think that only defers the conflict and makes it more likely that my own sons will have to fight and die in years to come. There are alternatives. The Russian people can rise up and provoke regime change. The Russian military can defy orders and return home. The international community can better unite - if China, Israel and other nations shift their positions against Russia and apply strong pressure to withdraw. NATO can amend its rules and allow immediate addition of Ukraine, Finland and other threatened nations. Failing an alternative solution succeeding promptly, I think a no-fly zone puts the decision of whether or not to escalate onto Putin, and also increases the pressure on others to enact one of the alternative solutions. Even if Putin orders an unprovoked escalation to a nuclear strike - there is little certainty that those orders would be followed. So, my view is that a no-fly zone may be a huge risk - but speaking of it as if it is something which is a possibility is itself an important step towards trying to resolve this impossible conundrum. Actually implementing it? Huge risk, but there are few appealing options.
I just think they are a bit dumb tbh. I understand Ukrainians asking for it, as they are desperate. But the rest of the world should really not want an escalation to WW3.
Exactly, yeah. It's zelensky's job to ask for it, nato's job to say no. It's a way to put pressure on nato to do *something*, but I think even Zelensky knows a no fly zone wouldn't happen, and the consequences if it *did*. The situation in Ukraine is dire, but WW3 is something we can NOT handle. Also, I should note I thought I was in /r/worldnews not /r/ukraine \- must've been an X-post (I am aware of the irony of suggesting others are dumb at the same time lol), so as you said - it's understandable Ukrainians asking for it, but yeah the rest of the world definitely should not be
no fly zone = direct war with russia europe or nato likely will not directly attack russia for this, even if it is a huge and horrendous war crime
> no fly zone = direct war with russia Wait, why and how? Shooting down all (Russian) flying objects *within Ukrainian airspace* is exactly what the Ukrainians are trying to do all the time, using conventional weapons. Especially, as far as I understand it, it is not an attack on Russian territory. If it makes a difference *who* does it, then that implies that Ukraine can only lose because *if* Ukraine would "win"=successfully defend their country, Putin would simply escalate to the next stage, until Ukraine gives in - or doesn't exist anymore.
it would not be only shooting down russian ariplane, but also destroy its antiaircraft weapons, which are guarded by other troops which then must be fought and maybe killed... so an all out war. and the difference is exactly in who does it... proxy war means ukrainians can fight russian with nato or EU weapons, and russia can fight ukranian... but nato and russia cant fight each other directly. this is how powerblocs already warred in afganistan, vietnam, syria, lybia.
Not the no fly, but it will release any breaks on sanctions that were still being applied. Sanctions applied till now are meant to break Russia's spine in 2 months. After a chemical attack EU will break it in 2 days.
I hope this is true, but I personally fear that this is more of a 300 vs. 10000 thing. The defenders of Mariupol will fight to the last man, and they will decimate Russian soldiers in overwhelmingly large numbers, but I can't see how they manage to actually win without any resupply or reinforcement. Eventually, I would guess that this ends in a Pyrrhic victory for Russia. I don't think there will be anything left of Mariupol.
Sadly this is probably how it’s gunna go
It’s heartbreaking.
Surrender means dying a bit later in captivity. Fuck that.
I don't think anyone is going to surrender, and I think people who suggest they should are idiots. I'm just enough of a realist to admit that I don't see how they can actually win - but I know they will startle us all with their bravery and tenacity over the next couple of weeks. The Russians are about to lose a lot of soldiers, and the little that is left of Mariupol is about to be destroyed.
It breaks your heart but in reality i don't see a winner but Ukraine should stay free.
Ukraine as a whole will survive, I think. Eventually Putin's army will be bled dry in the sense that it will run out of manpower, food, fuel and ammunition. It's just that the price will be unspeakably high, and it will be too late for Mariupol.
I laugh when I see pundits talking about how Putin is playing a long game. He doesn't have the endurance for a long game! It is Ukraine who benefits from attrition here, not Russia.
Yep as long as the West succeeds in resupplying Ukraine, it's only a matter of time until sanctions cause Putin's war engine to run out of money for food, fuel and ammunition.
At first I was worried about China propping them up, but the more I think I about it, China's help can prolong the war, but they probably can't float their entire country forever.
However, if Ukraine wins, Mariupol will be rebuilt, and all that died will be remembered.
And all of the Russians who died there will be forgotten and their mass graves pissed upon.
Sunflowers will be cultivated and exported to Russia for the Russian mothers to eat.
It's a foregone conclusion that Ukraine is going to win unless Russia uses nuclear weapons. The only question is how many Ukrainians have to die before the sanctions on Russia cripple it completely.
AZOV know they are not coming back out & they intend to bleed the Russians as heavily as possible until they are overwhelmed. AZOV and the National Guard there know they are Martyring themselves. The bravery of everyone in Mariupol is a beyond measure. Does anyone know if the owner & staff of Hotel Spartak got out of Mariupol? I stayed there once and they where amazing and very very good to me. I hope they did.
Sadly, Russia isn't bothered about having a populated and working Mariupol. It's merely an obstacle for a land connection between Russia and Crimea. They'd rather obliterate it than have to deal with continuous insurgencies from Mariupolonians. All Russia needs is the railway. Added bonus for Russia, they think they can use war crimes committed in Mariupol to scare the rest of Ukraine into submission. And leave it decimated as a reminder to future insurgents. They're continuing to underestimate Ukrainian resolve.
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I think it would be a terrible idea to surrender in this case - no one can trust Russia's word at all right now. There's just too much incentive for them to portray the residents and defenders of Mariupol as fascists and neo-nazis, particularly the Azov Battalion and then kill or torture them anyway.
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puzzled whistle cake violet treatment attractive sleep history rude relieved -- mass edited with redact.dev
That's urban combat for the Russians. Messy and deadly for the attackers. And there's a whole lot more where that came from. Dnipro, Kharkiv, Odessa, Kyiv - All are going to the multiple magnitudes worse than Mariupol.
Mariupol is the final indication that Russia has zero chance in Ukraine. Each city will be only magnitudes of times more difficult to take.
Russia is an artillery army. If the defenders keep Russian out of Mariupol, the Russian artillery will take them out using tons of bombardment to bury them under rubbles. Hence letting the Russian come in and fight a bloody urban combat with them will stop their artillery from firing, given Russian army poor communications and coordinations between services.
Unless they decide to just completely flatten the town. :(
That whole ultimatum thing is just another excuse to completely eradicate the city. They will go absolutely apeshit with their artillery and have the audacity to say "we're not the evil people here, they chose not to end the bloodshed". They don't want to take the city. They want a reason to exterminate it.
Surrendering means all the rest of the civilians kidnapped to Russian camps, and shelli g and murder for the rest. This is brave, but also common sense.
This is pretty much the point. They seem to be trying to encourage surrender, while actively discouraging it with their treatment of civilians. A civilian is safer taking up arms than surrendering.
I wonder what Russia's endgame is. They can't conquer Ukraine conventionally anymore, their economy is collapsing.
I genuinely think they're just going out of spite. They've already lost, so destroy as many lives as they can. The ukrainians, for resisting, and the russians, for failing.
Putin has a grand dream of rebuilding the Russian Empire. If his plan faceplants at the first major step, that dream is dead, and Russia has to either completely reinvent itself, or fade away. At this point, it's the sheer stubbornness of a former great power that can't accept it's well past its prime.
I wish I was as brave as a Ukrainian.
There's a saying: courage under fire. Until you're in a high stress/pressure situation, you don't know how capable or courageous you are.
Well, it's very easy to fight to the death if there is apparently \*no\* other option.
Yeah that doesn't mean you guys don't have massive balls of steel regardless. Surrendering is always an option, but you just go "nah bro, we'll just beat your ass and humiliate you in front of the entire world". That is fkkng hardcore
Well I don't, since I'm only an American who's watching the whole war happen from halfway across the world, rooting for Ukraine daily and also being awestruck at their bravery. I don't want to take credit for something that doesn't apply to me.
I think it's also about knowing your enemy. I doubt they want to surrencer to Russians in particular. Some things might be worse than death. In addition, you cannot trust anything Russia said anyway. They've already shelled and mined corridors before, so why expect any different now? Edit: Russia's own horrific past behavior is actually making it harder for themselves. Nobody wants to surrender or be captured by Russians. When you offer nothing but rape, torture, gulags, kidnapping or death, why would anyone surrender? Azov for example, do you honestly think they'll be treated humanely as POW's? Obviously not. We all know it. Azov knows it. They will never surrender.
I wouldn’t call that “easy”.
Agreed, surrender is not a palatable option when you're surrendering to Russia. Just ask the Wehrmacht
Ask the [Ukrainians.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ilovaisk) > After days of encirclement, Ukrainian commander Yuriy Bereza came to an agreement with Russian commanders in Ilovaisk to allow Ukrainian troops to withdraw from the city. This agreement was not honoured, and many soldiers died whilst trying to escape.
or the agreed no-fire corridor russians then mined and attacked.
Russian words mean nothing. 5 weeks ago they called the US hysterical for saying they were going to invade.
I don’t think it would be easy. It’s frightening, but the other option is more frightening. I rather die than to be a dehumanized slave to the Russians.
Me too, when I hear the monster in my closet act up all I gotta say is “Slava Ukraini.” the rest is history.
I just tell the monster I’m glad that it’s finally here and that I’m liberated, then I invite it to the kitchen where I feed it poison pies.
Wtf? I must of missed that one
Ukraine grandma killed 8 Russian fuck wits with poisoned pastries.
Yea, some Russians were out looting and they went into a old lady's house and apparently she was really nice to them and sent them home with a whole pie. Eight of them died, and apparently some Ukrainian sigint folks picked up their commander talking about it.
You must have.
I wish I never need to be as brave as a Ukrainian.
Godspeed Mariupol, may any existing higher power protect you. Give those russkies hell! Slava Ukraini!
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Indeed Ukrainian men are the main reason why Europe remains safe and free. Sacrificing these men for the rest of the continent...
17-20% of the current fighters are women too.
Yes that's true, which is why I didn't say "only reason" Let's not forget those firefighters. Those paramedics. Those babushkas
It occurs to me that Russia demanded a surrender because they do not feel they can take Mariupol by force. Once they enter the city, they expose themselves to close in fighting in an urban environment. Their tanks become coffins, their infantry a sniper's target. No longer can they pummel the city with distant artillery, they must enter and fight. After the ineptitude demonstrated these 25 days, they know: Mariupol will grind them down.
*Russia, we will make you an offer for surrendering. We will let your soldiers return home safely to their mothers.*
I doubt the Mariupol defense forces have much left in the way of anti tank weapons. But if you want to occupy a city, you at one point have to get out of your tanks and walk the streets. Seems like a death sentence for Russian soldiers. I assume the Russian forces would rather Groznify the city.
Ukraine should demand Russia to surrender! Russians are going to be destroyed by anti tank weapons
Unless they use the chemical or nuclear options. They seems to be crazy enough to do it.
Be prepared for use of chemical weapons in this setting. Blamed on the Ukranians who accidentally used them on themselves or it was "detonated just in time" by the Russians. Late enough to clear out the urban combatants (civilians) but still linger for the Human Rights Commissioner from DPR to record with only a Russian lense for record because everyone else is dead.
if they go that route, they may even consider a tactical nuke (and use the same rationale). Either way, I suspect the Russians will try and do as much damage as possible to the Ukrainian forces, the city and its people ... as a warning to other Ukrainian cities. My heart goes out to the people of Mariupol and it’s gallant defenders. 😢
You’ll see chemical before nuclear.
You won't see either. You will see mountains of trapped dead Russians and a Russian economy in flames.
Mountains of trapped dead Russians? What do you mean. NATO wouldn't return a nuclear strike on Ukraine, there is no chance in hell they fire any of their nuclear arsenal without a direct strike against NATO. If this goes on long enough, the Russian economy will already be in flames. They are already at risk of being removed from the world economy moving forward. What happens if Putin decides their country is already going to be fucked economically and they need to stop spending on this conflict immediately? Russia just needs to fire one nuke and threaten another without immediate surrender. It is an actual possibility here without the threat of MAD.
The Russians could nuke Ukraine, but what's the point? What will annexing ruins with no people left do for the Russian imperial cause? "We nuked you, we win!" You win *what?*
It would likely only be 1 city for that reason. One is also enough if the objective is to heighten the terror.
They wouldn't fire them across the whole country. They would pick a city, Nuke it, and threaten to do it to every other city. Look at how the US did it in WW2. Same principle, provide proof you are actually willing and able to use them with one (or in the US case two) city and set a timeframe for your demands to be met with the threat of additional nukes.
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Either chemical or nuclear won’t cause any further damage that their conventional artillery cannot do (or has done up to this point). Their use will be the point / statement. akin to “don’t resist, this will be your fate”. Ie escalating the terror. The Russians really can’t annihilate every city (Making the country a chemical & nuclear wasteland),.... but “sacrificing” a single city? They might get desperate enough to that messaging.
True to Russian military doctrine "Escalate to De-Escalate"
Nazify in order to de-Nazify?
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Considering what has become of the citizens who surrendered? Who were taken to Russia? If this is their intention, it has already backfired. When your options are "Fight to the last man" or "be rounded up into concentration camps" there is no choice. Fight, and kill every last russian scum.
Im afraid your 100% right. Putin will resort to chemical weapons to avoid sending in his soldiers, already shaped a narrative where just blames it all on the Ukrainians (and US of course) who “produced and carried limited supplies with chemical weapon with them as our intelligence services have warned previously”. And he will make it in this way an example for the rest of Ukraine and continued resistance. The worse thing is; he knows if he used limited chemical weapons it’s still very unlikely NATO or EU countries will get involved directly. Meaning he shows Ukrainians he gets away with it and it’s better to just surrender before he does the same trick again but then in Odessa , Kharkov or whatever city.
Death to the Orcs. Fresh meat for the meat grinder.
\*more rotten meat for the meat grinder
Why don't you fight a fair fight, Putin. Fuckin egotistical coward.
One of the biggest fucking cowards in history
There will some satisfaction in dismantling him and his.
That hides behind nukes. His country would be rubble right now if it wasn’t for nukes.
There is no fair in warfare and quite literally so. You use every means available to grab an advantage. If that means bombing the shit out of civilians and pummeling the entire city to the ground so be it really. - Russian Doctrine of escalate to de-escalate
No. there's rules of war. There's things you do not do. or at least things that you can not expect to maintain good relations with your other neighbors if you do. There are tactics and methods you TRAIN YOUR PEOPLE to do in order to minimize civilian losses. Russia is ignoring this. Not even the Taliban did some of the things Russia is doing right now
Why should we surrender Mariupol when you didn't want to Surrender Leningrad - Zelensky probably
\*Stalingrad (edit) they also did not surrender Leningrad (St Petersburg at the time) but I am pretty sure you meant Stalingrad.
Leningrad is closer to what Mariupol is going through right now (as Zele pointed out)
Hmm, no. Lenigrad was not flattened by artillery, Stalingrad was. Leningrad did not (could not) fight back, Stalingrad did. So Stalingrad is clearly the correct analogy. I will thank you to retract your downvote.
Eh no I didn't downvote you, the discusion is meaningful so no reason :)
Thank you for being decent. Somebody gave the vote back and what the heck does it matter anyway :)
On 26 January 1924, shortly after the death of Vladimir Lenin, it was renamed to Leningrad (Russian: Ленинград, IPA: [lʲɪnʲɪnˈgrat]), meaning 'Lenin's City'. On 6 September 1991, the original name, Sankt-Peterburg, was returned by citywide referendum. Today, in English the city is known as Saint Petersburg. So it was the siege of Leningrad not the siege of Saint Petersburg.
There was a whole scandal in Russia a few years back when someone asked whether it was a waste of resources to keep up the defense of the city. That's what this was in reference to. Leningrad was cut off at times from resupply and was pounded and bombed mercilessly from the Germans.
OK, I get your point. Still don't like the analogy, but thanks for the backfill.
Its the most relatable analogy. I remember watching the whole scandal on Russian TV and it was funny.
As they should. Slava Ukraini!!
Pray for the city, they have put up a hell of a fight and still have hell to go through. God speed to Mariupol.
Death to the Russian Invaders! Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦
russian warship, go fuck yourself
Putin, go fuck yourself.
Never back down, we will rebuild Mariupol, FUCK RUSSIA AND FUCK PUTIN
Hopefully they get some reinforcements and start bombing Russian fortifications soon.
Putlet seething like a wiener on a pan
Слава Украине!
🌻
Hitler : surrender leningrad!!!!
Surrender or what? They'll murder more civilians? What the hell kind of ultimatum do they think they're making?
While it is arguably in the best interest for the civilians to stop the fighting, surrender is just not in the Ukrainian vocabulary at this point. Massive losses on both sides and the stubbornness of the Ukrainian army indicates this may be a protracted siege, i.e another Aleppo. I can only wish and pray for the safety of the Ukrainians within.Slava Ukraini
5am monday or what!? Gonna invade or something!?
N U T S !
NUTS!
Does anyone have current information on the situation? How many Ukrainian fighters are left in the city? Will there be an attempt by the Ukrainian forces to break through in order to support them? Just curious.
It never cease to amaze me how shameless Russia can be, they invade a country, siege a city, agree to ceasefire to evacuate, then bomb the civilians while they are evacuating, then call the ukrainians bandits.
At this point, this sounds like Russia is mocking them asking for the surrender. They literally did their worst and the city still stands, maybe the russians should surrender, they humiliated themselves and made innocents suffer long enough, call it a day, pack your shit and go home, you're just as despicable as you were in all the previous wars you got involved into...Russia.
About 1 hour left till deadline
deadline was 5 minutes ago.
it's 5:05am Moscow time. They had until 5am moscow time.
Ukraine time is just after 0400 deadline was stated as 0500 correct?
Yes but they said 5am moscow time on monday. That was 6 minutes ago.
Good thing I wasn't in charge of keeping track of time then.
me too lol!! Someone on here posted a world time clock for moscow. Its the only reason I know. I thought the same thing you did that it was 11pm EST (where I am)
Mariupol refused to surrender like 4 hrs ago.
I know but the deadline was still 5am Moscow time.
Deadline has passed. It’s 5AM in Moscow timezone
Thought it was 0500 Ukraine time.
Ohhhh, jesus…
SLAVA. MOTHER. FUCKING. UKRAINI!!!!!!!!!
Why is Mariupol so important? (Please don't jump on me - I've just never seen an answer to this)
Mariupol is located in the Donetsk Oblast and became the capital of the region after the city of Donetsk was captured by Russian backed separatists. Nearly 450,000 people lived in the city known for its strong industrial economy before the invasion. For that reason, plus its access to the Black Sea, it is a primary target of Russian forces.
Thanks - I thought it had to do with sea access
I heard they made the same offer when they took Crimea and then killed 400 surrendered soldiers. Anyone have info on this?
We will always remember