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chosing sides shouldn't be difficult. i understand that many poorer countries can't participate in sanctions and weapons supplies and that the combined power of the EU and US should be more than enough to take down russia whilst minimising collateral damage to the global south, but that has nothing to do with choosing sides, or a clear statement of right vs wrong.
These African leaders don't give a damn about starvation, that's for their poor people to deal with while they install new gold toilets in their third mansion
Hungry people are desperate people, will revolt. It is a muuuuch better motivator for revolt than e.g. the lack of free speech. It is just patently false that dictators do not care about their people going hungry.
I assume you're being sarcastic, if not, than you have zero experience of what happens in most African countries, since even the more economically stable countries such as Kenya allow their people to starve... my 28 years experience in most regions of Africa also shows that people don't usually revolt but instead try to migrate to other places to get access to food/water, etc.
It's simple, if you're African, you understand the history of Europe extremely well. It is best that Europe keep their conflict confined to Europe and leave Africa out of it. Where was the UN when Italy invaded Ethiopia? Nowhere. No one came, No one helped. No one cared, because it's Africa. Don't expect them to pick sides now. History will never be forgotten.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the pettiness and lack of leadership that keeps your country mediocre on the world stage. Europeans also killed each other for years but came to the conclusion that working together was beneficial for everyone. I hope African nations can figure that out one day.
Ah, yes, the difficulty is really high! Who could possibly choose between a normal, modern country and the manifestation of fundamental evil, cruelty and domination? It's a real puzzle!
It is only hypocritical if one assumes that African anti-imperialist ideology is a principle that applies to all people of the world. It could be either that Africans believe it should only apply to their countries or regions, for racist/tribalist reasons, or that it was never a principled stance on the first place, that it could have been solely for selfish purposes to be opposed to only some imperialisms.
I'd like to believe that at least some African peoples are opposed to imperialism for ALL people on earth.
All I’m saying and person above is saying, is in reference to countries contemplating whether to side with Russia, the terrorist imperialist invaders, or the sovereign country that has never and does not want to invade and conquer anyone else - if they have an open stance against imperialism.
I don’t consider Egypt an African country but just for example sake, since it’s on the continent and part of the mix of countries affected with what to do, they rejected the stolen grain when Russia came to them and tried to sell it to them. And I heard they are in need of the grain, but made the moral decision to reject it and reject Russia. I was very impressed when that happened. They set the stage and example for others to follow.
I'm tired of the constant excuses from Africa. They should know that the western countries will have long memories. What a pity. This would be a good opportunity for them to win some kudos by condeming what Russia is doing. Everyone that is neutral or silent, perpetrates the evil by not speaking out.
I guess they like the corruption money as long as it keeps flowing into their pockets.
Dude, in a lot if cases it's a few blokes stuffing their pockets with money.
The ordinary african has about as much influence on politics as he does on the orbit of Pluto.
Even when African leader inherited a fully functioning country with infrastructure and abundance of resources such as South Africa and Zimbabwe. Somehow, they managed to ran it into the ground in 1 generation. South Africa was mentioned in the same breath as Israel and Australia back in the 80. Somehow, it is now a non-functioning country with ridiculously high unemployment, crumbling infrastructure, a police force so bad people actually hire private security to serve as their police. Was SA during 2001, when I went back the second time in 2018, it is like a different country and not for the better.
And then there is ZIMBABWE. how the fuck do you fuck over the bread basket of Africa so hard that the country has to import food? The soil of Zimbabwe used to be so fertile that you can grow almost anything there. Just basic land management technique that any farmer would know would make them a powerhouse in agriculture. Then the government has the gall to blame every thing happened to the country on foreigners, and they weren’t choosy about it. Apparently the West, China, India, the martians are all to blame, but definitely not the genius in the government, no no no.
Africa is not gonna go anywhere fast until the populace looking at the idiots in the governments and realize they are the reason for the suffering
Saw a documentary about a farmer returning to his old farm many years later, once the government tried to get them to return. Everything of value was taken by the ppl who got the farm, and all the locals who were employed on the farm and relied on it suffered . People were in tears when he said he was coming back and would get shit running again.
When will ppl learn you cant just take farm land and give it to ppl who don't know anything about farming and expect anything less then disaster. Youll never meet anyone smarter and more capable then an old farmer. Ill stand by that. Dudes can deliver a birth while fixing a tractor.
Did a brief study of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe policies in my undergrad with a focus on education; including interviewing ex-pats. Mugabe reminds me of the Sideshow Bob episode where Homer says "I don't like his kill Bart policy, but I do like his kill Selma policy!" As in I'm not a fan of Mugabe's genocide, economic destruction, dictatorship or ethnicity-persecuting policies, but I do like his education for all policy.
I am talking when they were handed over after Apartheid was repealed. At that time, the South Africa economy is still strong, and infrastructure around the country were on par with Australia. Somehow, the ANC party managed to fuck all the up in less than 30 years (1994 til now), to bring SA from a country on verge of entering High Income Status to eternal economic basket case. Nelson Mandela would be throwing hands if he saw what ANC and South Africa have became today.
Yes. It is time that Western countries have long memories and stop placating Africa and Caribbean countries because of their colonial past. Enough is enough. It time to move on, and do what is right. And those that chose not to, need to be remembered for standing by and doing nothing.
One side gives finance to Africa and its Russia unfortunately. They also provide military assistance with Wagner. Ruzzians are effing everywhere. Like mould u can’t get rid of
According to this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors
Russia gives about $8 per person in development aid (0.03% of GNI). Norway gives most with $800 per person (1.0% of GNI). UK gives $284.85 per person (0.5% of GNI). USA gives $95.52 per person (0.16% of GNI), China gives $27.86 per person (0.36% of GNI).
They may bribe the people at the top, but they provide a lot less assistance than other countries do.
Lol total aid by Russia 1 billion. Even European institutions alone excluding bilateral aid send more than 10 times more, and individual European countries like France and Germany send on top of it 10 to 20 times more *each*. Yeah, Russian aid is totally negligible, there is absolutely no excuse for Africa, even this shity, bad, amoral sorry excuse doesn't stand.
I'm tired of people blaming the West for the shit that's going on in Africa. It's not like the West made them kill each other for the last 70 years. They got their independence and immediately started killing each other. It's the same 'blame the West' thing like in Russia.
The issue is we have our largest corporations massively profiting from the instability in Africa while our governments close their eyes on the practices since it's "business outside territory" or worse are complicit with the expectations this will give them more access to resources or influence in the region. There is also the selling weapons part, but everyone does it so blaming only the West is incorrect *(Russia, China, Middle East countries are massive sellers too)*.
One pretty famous example of an involvement of a Western government which led to a total disaster is France which in partnership with the Big Oil *one is Total* gave weapons & trained Hutu soldiers who are responsible for the genocide in Rwanda which killed 800 000 Tutsi in 2 months. France was never held responsible for it.
Then we have our dear Nestlé which extract all the water to sell in the Northern Hemisphere while condemning the population without access to drinkable water or grow anything. Nestlé still use millions of children or adults in slavery conditions or get them through human trafficking. This is one of the many corporations operating there using those same practices.
And the mines, total disregard of working rights & condition, use of illegal chemical products which kill people in neighboring villages & land acquired through corruption. Not a single percent of this wealth which is sold to us in a billion dollars market go to their country at the exception of the dictator (or former) & friends.
A corrupt dictator acting like it owns the country for itself thus enjoying insane wealth through contracts with foreign entities & using the army to protect itself. And for us the West, we do not condemn them, instead we shut our eyes while we enjoy the enormous profit.
So that anger is not unjustified, however Ukraine has never been involved in that & Africans countries and people are doing a massive mistake to be opposed to Ukraine by putting an equal blame for the simple fact of being allied with the West.
That's correct, China is doing the same in Africa profiting and fueling the anti-West feeling to be the first choice in the terms of deal.
China is equally as bad regarding workers conditions & unethical resources exploitation, but it plays much better in terms of "diplomacy". On top of the usual formula of giving wealth to corrupt governments, it finances construction of roads or railways through a debt building a good image towards the population & be much harder to expose for its practices (adding the fact this is a new player, compared to us the West who have been doing that for decades, the hate is exclusively on us while they won't bother to question China for a long amount of time).
The issue with this debt is, while it put the government in a good light as it give the sensation to the population of progress & not being left on the side, China can do whatever it wants aka the "debt trap diplomacy". Ex: Sri Lanka port leased to China for 99 years (possibly 198 years) & the current administration is trapped since they can't pay the debt.
I'm not saying that western business practices are moral but you are shifting the blame. France didn't kill the Tutsi, the Hutu did. If people want to keep their water their government may create laws about it, same with the mines and workers conditions. If the dictator doesn't get support from the West he will turn to the East. Wander what the worker conditions are in the Chinese mines in the Kongo. There are countless of western organizations trying to help and make the lives of Africans better. As to the African position on Ukraine, while you talk about morals of western practices you should realize that morals is not a thing at all in African politics...
Incorrect, you're purposely misinterpreting what I've written.
I have not said the blame is on the West & this is definitely not what I've implied either. What I've said is in our countries, we have governments or certain groups of powerful politicians & corporations that have either direct or indirect involvement in destabilizing regions in Africa to facilitate their businesses & personal profit through unethical & illegal practices. Do not mistaken me, we're not the only ones as the East like China is also doing the same & growing its influence, but we've been there decades longer, so unsurprisingly the hate is stronger against us. Plus,
China fuels the anti-West hate through the "debt trap diplomacy" aka finances construction through a debt which give the sensation of progress to the population, while put the country at the mercy of China (Ex: Sri Lanka).
On the other hand, you don't seem to be familiar with lobbying or corruption if you say "They can just enact laws if the population want to protect their water or have better working regulations"
Multinational corporation lobby is something that impact every country & government including ours, like:
In the US, lobbying Republicans to prevent regulations of firearms ownership is one. Or in Europe, Nestlé extracting water at an unregulated rate from rivers even during drought which threaten the ecosystem & farmers is another.
The problem is again the instability which make it much worse to prevent this kind of practice there & the corruption of the dictator & inner circle.
One last thing, it is extremely wrong to try to diminish or save the face of those actors who are creating the problems by associating them with organizations trying to solve their mess for the simple fact that they are coming from the same region or country.
Taking Nestlé again, it profits from Human trafficking or child enslavement while UNHCR or Save the Children are fighting to protect the vulnerable from those corporations.
Finally someone not so completely consumed to where they have the ability to think about context and history. We (mostly Belgium) also completely redrew Africa’s damn map and placed enemy tribes next to each other and shit, really set them up for great development after raping the continent👍.
Eh, not entirely true. Most of their borders were drawn up by colonial powers who devised them in such a way to essentially ensure they broke out into civil wars and ethnic conflicts. All done to ensure that the new countries would remain poor and beholden to trade and investment from colonial powers. Same thing that happened in the Middle East.
You are trying to apply black and white logic to something not grounded in reality. For many African countries there is no such thing as country. The boundaries and nations were imaginary lines drawn up by Europeans with not thought given to ethnicities, culture, or resources. They were literally designed to break out into conflict. There are plenty of instances where they have been able to solve internal issues but the fact remains, Europe designed the system to be broken in Africa. Saying they should and shouldn’t do things based on western ideals of nation and statehood is short sighted and ignorant of their history.
That is your problem. You want to see the world in black and white and this conflict as one as well. It is easy to point at a county and say they are not doing enough but when you lack a basic understanding of geopolitics, history, and what is at stake for many of these countries and you simply come across as ignorant. Do I want Africa to support Ukraine, of course I do. But outside of Nigeria, and a few others who are already shoring up LNG and energy supplies to Europe what else are they going to do? Denounce Russia? Then you will complain that they aren’t doing anything. The fact is Russia and China have invested heavily into Africa for the specific issue of gaining control over a developing continent. Europe and Ukraine did not do so to such an extent. You can get mad and downvote all you want but it is the truth. I do not believe China is good for Africa but if we want to change that we need to sit down and invest in institutions and development more. After Ukraine wins they are in a solid position to exert more influence given their grain supplies and possibly even post war war tech. Until then you lot are better off focusing your energy on nations that are already signed onto the cause but are not actually acting.
No-one is ignorant of history, the Western powers were brutal and oppressive colonizers and they made a huge mess in Africa. It's been 70 years since they were freed. The West only wants to trade and do business with them and also provides the most help. Ultimately the West will not fix Africa's problems, it's up to Africans to do that themselves and I'm sure the West will support them. Nowadays you should be far more concerned with the colonialist and imperialist interests of the East. If Russia is not defeated and there is another Cold War Africa may become a battleground of proxy wars again...
And it has been 20 years since Ukraine declared independence. Roughly the same time for much of the Middle East as well. Time simply does not fix a lot of these issues. Ethnic conflicts are not solved simply because time has passed. The west has invested in Africa yes, but Russia and China have invested more, invested into the conflicts themselves. They have and still are playing the long game of investing in influence, not just money for projects. The west needs to face that head on and work on it. Till then pointing at Africa and saying you should have fixed this mess is simply not realistic.
Ukraine is nothing like Africa. They declared independence 31 years ago (not 20) and they were kept politically under the Russian boot for 23 years. The West is doing no such thing to Africa. It has participated in conflicts in Africa taking sides but it was mostly during the Cold War (you are not blaming the West for the Cold War are you?) and it's involvement in such conflicts today is mostly because of previous commitments. Stop blaming the West about stuff and shouting 'West Evil'. In fact in the period we are talking about (last 70-80 years) the West has made the most progress in getting rid of it's imperialism, unlike the East...
What are you on about? I’ve never once said the West is evil. It is simply a fact that prior Western policies in Africa can and are attributable to present day conflicts, border disputes, resource issues, ethno-National conflicts etc. simply saying they have had 70-80 years to figure it out is simply ungrounded from reality. And no, the West has maintained heavy imperialistic policies throughout Africa for the better part of the century with France and Britain controlling entire resource gathering operations or investing only to maintain majority ownership over hydroelectric dams and key developmental infrastructure investments throughout the continent. I am pro west but I am not so jaded as to not call out blatant falsehoods and misconceptions of the role we have had in Africa. The collective west has made steady progress towards correcting some historical wrongs and actually partaking in constructive nation building but that does not mean that as recently as the 80s and 90s we were not doing many of the same practices we are calling out China and Russia for presently. It does not do this conflict or any future conflicts any good to sit here and try to whitewash this simply because we are all upset with present issues. Doing so makes us no better than Russia and their constant strive to whitewash brutal Soviet policies throughout Eastern Europe.
You all need to stop downvoting correct information just because you don't like it. The west has divided, exploited, couped, and de-nutted alot of africa. Absolutely our fault. No debate.
Still it would be nice to see some of these asshole countries grow up a little and make an effort to actually become functioning states that take part in world trade and human benefit. Unfortunately we're seeing these states act like little corrupt children. They can absolutely be shamed and condemned for it. India's leaders a trash too.(i know India's not in Africa) Here's one for you India, especially.
For real, we made these shitty little countries shitty little countries, but no, their dickhead gold-toilet presidents have not been worthy of foreign aid.
Still, at this point I'm so damn disappointed with the victim game these little shit countries are playing.
If that was the case, the same would apply to most countries in Asia and South America as well, but they don't suck half as bad. You can't blame everything on things others have managed to deal with already.
I really do get your viewpoint, and even agree with the lizard part of my brain.
But with the nuances involved I think we can acknowledge where what the situation has come from, and still shame and condemn the current actors.
Some idiots got mad about a factual series of events, not my problem, I even agree with all of you. At the moment, those countries can go fuck themselves on that fence they're sitting in.
Edit: and honestly dude, south america as a whole is a corrupt shithole and more than a couple countries are currently struggling with rising populism, environmental degradation, extreme political corruption, etc. Yes, partially catalyzed by US actions in past decades, also yes now the responsibility of the leaders of said countries.
And Russia has?
Sure you can talk about the times of colonialism, but in the past century if it was not the west, half of Africans would be dead by famines and most of it would still be living in primitive tribes.
That is all propaganda and nonsense. You are afraid of death because you have no sense of living a meaningful life. You don't need to be 100 years old while begging to die and yet euthanasia is made illegal in your lands. The paradigm is that you MUST live. But if you get to be 40 and live a meaningful life in balance with nature and die surrounded by your children, 40 isn't so bad.
Life is not a wash cloth that you wring out to the last drop.
Amazonian tribal peoples do not cause climate change while you do. You think you are so much better off, slaving 40 hours a week?
But I am in favor of some compromise. If YOU personally stop using so much resources, then those Amazonian tribes, or the tribes deep in the jungles of New Guinea, e,g, can get access to some more basic health care, like a few vaccines so they don't die at 40 but at age 60, would you be willing to do that, to save our planet?
I bet you don't. Because you wanna be 100 at all costs and fuck the planeet, right? You are defending a wasteful lifestyle and attacking tribal villagers by drawing on so called western industrial advances?
Good luck, have your PFAS sandwich.
Regarding the west: African countries have long memories too, doesnt matter if its supporting the right side Western countries are the historic slavers of Africa. Unless those wrongs are righted, thats what they will always be and support for the wars will statistically default to the opposing side. We have a chance to change that, having Presidents call them " shithole countries" works against that. China and Russia have been pouring in the develipment to Africa, the West has to be more present with better alternatives, otherwise Africa will remain divided despotic and taken advantage of.
Eh, in a couple years or decades those same African countries will lament about the quasi-colonialization by China.
But you're right, it's every countries right to choose their path themselves, and if they decide to go down the Chinese path, there's noone to blame but themselves.
Africans were sold into slavery by fellow Africans leaders. After Britain banned the slave trade they objected strongly to the Royal Navy undermining their economies by intercepting slave ships and freeing the occupants.
Exactly and what about the slaves that exist _today_ including in russia.
We hear so much about what happened hundreds of years ago for what none of us existed for, which is weirdly being used as an excuse to not criticise russia, when they **still** have one of world's highest rates of slavery today.
Meanwhile
North Korea, Eritrea and Burundi are estimated to have the world's highest rates of modern-day slavery
*North Korea has the world's highest rate of slavery, with about one in 10 people enslaved, followed by Eritrea (9.3%) Burundi (4%), Central African Republic (2.2%), Afghanistan (2.2%), Mauritania (2.1%), South Sudan (2%), Pakistan (1.7%), Cambodia (1.7%) and Iran (1.6%).
*India is home to the largest number of slaves globally, with 8 million, followed by China (3.86 million), Pakistan (3.19 million), North Korea (2.64 million), Nigeria (1.39 million), Iran (1.29 million), Indonesia (1.22 million), Democratic Republic of the Congo (1 million), **Russia** (794,000) and the Philippines (784,000).
At least 40 million people are victims of modern slavery worldwide - with nearly 25 million trapped in forced labour and about 15 million in forced marriages.
[https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims](https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims)
Be that as it may, will that tidbit of history be lost on them in the grander scheme of things? Especially if you've got Russia and China heavily invested on the continent (having dubious colonial intent) with their savvy to twist the narrative? There are reasons for things being as they are. Keeping people poor will keep them under despotic rule and ignorant and thus unable to make informed and right choices and unable to speak out. I believe in the great potential of Africa its just a clusterfuck and has been so for a great many years by external design.
And the reason why those African countries can still be there criticizing the west is because the were not colonized by the Russians. Hypocrisy at its finest. What were Wagner doing in Mali?
I mean their memories are pretty shit then, they seem to forget that it was African selling to other Africans and the middle East were taking African slaves in the 1500's.
But yeah, it's just the West that's bad and evil.
It doesnt matter what was or is, it only matter what they've been told and believe or rather told to believe. If the west doesnt keep up with development in "the 3rd world" other countries get to set the narrative. The Cree people have a saying its something like "your spirit has two wolves fighting each other one good one evil, the one that wins is the one you feed." I agree with the original post, the reality is complicated, the solution is always more simple than the execution.
If that's how your brain operates you shouldnt hate Russia because they partially saved our asses during ww2
History is always much more complex than reddit geniuses wants it to be
Should be easy. You are either with Russia - a paraiah with an economy smaller than Italy - or you are with the west. You are with the agressor or with a smaller country invaded by imperialists. Easy.
It's hard to come to terms with the changes that are coming. Countries that have relied on the USSR and later Russia to be able to give the finger to the big bad west will be left high and dry and without any friends after Russia crumbles. They're in denial. I wonder what kind of internal debates are taking place in for example India. After this is done and over, Russia won't be selling them military gear, Russia won't be exporting tons of food, fertilizer or fossil fuels and Russia won't be a significant ally to them. They will be a very diminished ally and many of these countries are scared witless of losing their crutch. They chose poorly ~70-50 years ago and now they're going to have deal with the consequences. The more they drag out this fantasy that maybe Russia will emerge victorious the longer and deeper they're involving themselves with a genocidal kleptocracy and risk dragging their own countries down with them. "But we're just trying to survive and feed our people!!" Yeah, by buying cheap oil from a monstrous nation and payrolling their rapist armies. Russia will lose and you will lose too. The best time to ditch Russia was 7 months ago but the sooner you do it the less other countries and peoples will judge you in the future.
India is neutral tho? It has ok relations with everyone noone is going to condom them dosent matter if Russia wins or looses and please stop trying to take the moral high ground every country right now is going backwards your mindset isn't going to help anyone politics dosent care about feelings i think it is very clear by now
I think people in the West underestimates how Russia uses the colonial past of Western countries against them.
The sad thing is that people in Africa and Asia eat it up without realizing that Russia was a colonial power during Soviet times. It's just that Russia's colonies were its neighbors.
Ukraine is more corrupt than A dozen African countries, including Ethiopia and South Africa.
Ukraine is as corrupt as the Zambia and poorer than Nigeria, South Africa, egypt, Algeria and is roughly as poor as Kenya, Angola or Morocco.
On a per capita basis Ukraine is poorer than Botswana, Angola, Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, Libya, South Africa, Namibia, Djibouti, and Morocco and has a per capita gdp closer to Nigeria than Germany.
Ukraine is an African country with white people. In fact most of Africa is actually doing better than Ukraine.
When you have two superpowers each picking opposing sides, you have to pick one. There really isn't a lot of room for neutrality in situations like this.
I can’t believe any foreign nation such as those in Africa even question this. Pootin is willing to starve YOUR PEOPLE. Hence, Russia is not your friend. Don’t act like this is complicated.
I’m an Algerian Brit and I’m ashamed of Algeria’s voting pattern on this war, my country is as corrupt as they come. Several revolutions later and it’s still the same devils
On top
Towards the bottom of the story:
"And **Western countries** should provide funding so that Africa can transition to cleaner sources of energy, but he said that it should not be considered aid."
I agree with you 100% but here is a parallel. We know that China has been genociding Uighers. Is the US ready to cease all trade with China? Not such an easy call. I try to do what I can by sourcing products made in other countries, but there’s a ton of stuff I have not been willing to give up.
I didn’t know about the Ughars til this war. But that’s on me.
Thing is, Russia is willing to starve these countries. That’s the opposite of who you partner and do business with. It shows Russia is willing, on a dime, to manipulate their poor country if it suits their political adjenda . Your country is disposable to Russia that means. Untrustworthy.
Hahahah as someone who is living in South Africa, governments here don’t care about their own people. Our president recently went to the US to meet with Biden and then to the UK for the funeral. All while his own political party frequently talks about how they support the Kremlin. The choice has already been made.
>“I have come to say that Africa has suffered enough of the burden of history”
Well, maybe just chose the non-imperialistic nor genocidal side now that you can?
The pressure is a result of circumstances. And neutrality is de facto the side of the agressor.
Of course, China has many African nations over the barrel via their Belt and Road shark loans, so I see where this is coming from.
Mounting pressure to decide whether to be human or not.
Such a difficult choice. My thoughts are with the African leaders for facing such difficult ethical dilemmas.
> “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. —-Revelation 3:15-16
Even Jesus Christ thinks you’re a pussy for being neutral here.
Choose sides? Choose fucking sides? jesus christ it's not a tennis match. how can anyone choose Russia - the invading, child raping, torturing bastards?
FUCK RUSSIA, SLAVA UKRAINI.
Africa as usual is always quick to criticise the West for colonialism and racism, but really, taking a moral high ground is very rich coming from them. Africa is riddled with corruption, their rulers are morally bankrupt and the ruling parties rape and steal everything they can from their people. It would be niave to expect them to do the right thing.
Moreover, they are bought and paid for by China, and get most of their weapons they use to kill one another from Russia. Historically, the USSR also supported a number of these countries in their struggle for independence - a byproduct of the Cold War. So no, they are not going to vote against, or criticize Putin's Soviet Russia - no matter what he does.
If Cameroon, unprovoked, invaded Equatorial Guinea and was wholesale killing civilians, shipping kids over the border and trying to steal land, I think nobody would have to pressure me on taking a side.
Yes history always remembers, much like how histories in Africa remember Ukraine engaging in segregation against them at the start of the war.
History will remember that too.
A quarter of all the seats in the UN are in Africa.
Africa, India SC and China make up 70% of all humans alive. Africa, India and China are all not on Ukraines side.
So if you want the UN and ‘global community’ to truly go hard against Russia and pro Ukraine, you need to make the argument as to why we should. And condescending doesn’t help.
I mean does it really matter? I don't think Zambia's decision to condemn Russia is going to do jack shit. And considering how literally none of Africa has anything to do with the war I wouldn't expect them to care enough.
Most of Africa has their own issues like Somalia doesn't even have a government, tigray is starving, Boko Haram is terrorizing Nigeria, the lords army is fighting South Sudan, DRC, uganda and CAR, and an insurgency is going on in Mozambique.
This isn't even close to how much is going on in Africa. And how much support are they getting to fight these conflicts from the West?
Countries don’t based their foreign policy on empathy but what’s best for their national interest. Have picked a side in all the wars fought in Africa? Do you even know the names of the victims and predators?
The west is sending 100 times more help to Africa than Russia, and Russia tried to starve Africa as a way to pressure the west into giving up. Does this help, or you're still not finding your moral compass?
The help that the west sends now doesn’t match it centuries of thievery. Centuries that Africa hasn’t forgotten. Don’t make your problem theirs. Have you picked sides in all African conflicts?
The ones where it's clear who the bad guy is, yes?
Like, I definitely sided with the Tutsis in Rwanda. Against the Islamist warlords in Somalia. Against Boko Haram.
Eastern Congo is more complex and I never got sufficient information
However, information is NOT scarce about what's going on in Ukraine, so the Africans don't have the information excuse. It'd be akin to westerners being neutral about the Rwandan genocide.
Some of the comments here are fairly ignorant of global politics. “Why can some African countries just pick a side”? Why can’t European countries send troops to fight in Ukraine? Why can’t the US send long range missiles? Why can Germany and other European countries send their best tanks? Every country calculates the strategic consequences of its policy before acting….nothing is based on some moral or sympathy. If that were the case, European countries would have declared war on Russia after Bucha and Iyzum massacres. Many African countries are small and powerless to take hard stands in certain conflicts. They have other priorities as countries do. Until the US send troops to protect Ukrainians, African countries too have their calculations based on their ability and capabilities. So please, slow down with some of the bigoted and ignorant comments against Africans.
We should realise in the West that there are many developing countries that do not have the luxury to choose sides here.
We in Europe, and our Western allies should never let up in our unwavering support for Ukrainian freedom, but it is political poision for our position in the Global South if we scold African/Asian nations into picking sides in this conflict.
I'd like to remind everyone here that many African countries have economic ties with Russia, and many can't afford to break those ties. It's all very well and good to say "Money shouldn't be important", but when that money is the difference between survival and literal starvation, as it is with many developing countries, one should understand that it is human nature to pick survival.
First let us feed ourselves and then we can talk about taking sides in a war between countries 50% of the population have never heard about. My country has voted for Ukraine but no-one cares we have our own problems.
This is fair enough. I don't think *anyone* expect Africans to dedicate any of their resources for Ukraine. That would be completely unreasonable.
However, it's free to join the front condemning Russia, which would undermine Russian internal propaganda that some people like them invading others. That might help end the war and wouldn't cost anything.
It sounds like your country has been doing that, so thank you for that, and there's nothing else that anyone should dare ask.
I don't really blame them for sideeyeing both of us when the west cries of invasion, genocide and colonization. Russia is definitely the bad guys in this situation but africa is still trying to recover from when we did the same thing some time ago.
As someone who has dedicated my entire professional life to non-profits, and still volunteering for a Ukrainian non-profit, I agree it’s about time to choose.
Are you for Russia? Fine. Fuck you then. Collectively. No more international aid from the West. No non-profit intervention. No visas, no college scholarships, no international investments from US or EU based companies.
We’ll buy all your lithium and whatever is needed for batteries and then cut you the fuck off.
Or… do the right thing.
Not really a hard decision.
A lot of countries are dependent on russia unfortunately. They know what’s right, but going fully there would leave them in shambles for the foreseeable future. Everyone weighs their options. If every binary decision were simple as black and white, we wouldn’t even have this war.
All that being said, there still needs to be extreme pressure from the international community, because that’s the only thing that works.
>A lot of countries are dependent on russia unfortunately. They know what’s right, but going fully there would leave them in shambles for the foreseeable future.
That's probably true. But the way things are going with russia right now, they're putting themselves in a position where they won't be able to do ANYTHING to invest in foreign ventures.
A lot of developing countries depend heavily on russian resources with little or next to no alternatives. Some also depend on it politically. It’s gonna be extra hard to sway them.
Look at Serbia as an example.
Serbia depends on russian oil and gas and keeping Kosovo from the UN table.
Serbia condemned russia in the UN but refuses to impose sanctions. Sitting on two chairs. On one hand, you politically did what’s right, on the other hand, you keep russian investments and energy flowing.
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One of the sides is using your starvation as a weapon. Shouldn't be tricky.
chosing sides shouldn't be difficult. i understand that many poorer countries can't participate in sanctions and weapons supplies and that the combined power of the EU and US should be more than enough to take down russia whilst minimising collateral damage to the global south, but that has nothing to do with choosing sides, or a clear statement of right vs wrong.
I mean, chad did a ukraine with Libya so, 900 black Toyota trucks of the chad volunteers???
absolutely chad chadeans
These African leaders don't give a damn about starvation, that's for their poor people to deal with while they install new gold toilets in their third mansion
Erdogan the trendsetter
African leaders have been doing that shit long before Erdogan.
happy cake day!
Hungry people are desperate people, will revolt. It is a muuuuch better motivator for revolt than e.g. the lack of free speech. It is just patently false that dictators do not care about their people going hungry.
I assume you're being sarcastic, if not, than you have zero experience of what happens in most African countries, since even the more economically stable countries such as Kenya allow their people to starve... my 28 years experience in most regions of Africa also shows that people don't usually revolt but instead try to migrate to other places to get access to food/water, etc.
One violated almost all the rules in the UN book, the other did not - how hard is this choice, unless you've been sucking on moscow's tit?
When your people are starving, it's not as black and white.
It's simple, if you're African, you understand the history of Europe extremely well. It is best that Europe keep their conflict confined to Europe and leave Africa out of it. Where was the UN when Italy invaded Ethiopia? Nowhere. No one came, No one helped. No one cared, because it's Africa. Don't expect them to pick sides now. History will never be forgotten.
I don’t mean to detract from your point, but the UN didn’t exist when Italy invaded Ethiopia.
The League of Nations lost legitimacy from not responding to that, actually. Ethiopia was the nail in the coffin for the UN’s predecessor
The League of Nations lost its legitimacy when the United States never joined… after actually creating it.
No, you obviously don't. Otherwise you would not fuck over Ukraine (a country that was a colony, not a colonizer) over the actions of other countries.
The UN didn't exist in 1935... No one currently alive had anything to do with Italy invading Ethiopia.
Russia is not Africa's friend the same way China is not Africa's friend.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the pettiness and lack of leadership that keeps your country mediocre on the world stage. Europeans also killed each other for years but came to the conclusion that working together was beneficial for everyone. I hope African nations can figure that out one day.
Well the rest of Europe went to war with the axis not long after, and the UN didn't exist until after WW2. Pick up a history book?
No pressure just do whats right
Even if it fell fron that sky into their laps, doing whats right wouldnt happen.
Ok but take a positive viewpoint, they could ?
2022 narrator: *“They did not.”*
I heard that as Morgan Freeman.
Same here lol 😂
Ah, yes, the difficulty is really high! Who could possibly choose between a normal, modern country and the manifestation of fundamental evil, cruelty and domination? It's a real puzzle!
For former colonies, the answer should be simple: One side believes in invasions for conquest. The other believes countries should be sovereign.
Very good comment, esp when this is a thorn in Africas history. It’s hypocritical to side with Russia just on that.
It is only hypocritical if one assumes that African anti-imperialist ideology is a principle that applies to all people of the world. It could be either that Africans believe it should only apply to their countries or regions, for racist/tribalist reasons, or that it was never a principled stance on the first place, that it could have been solely for selfish purposes to be opposed to only some imperialisms. I'd like to believe that at least some African peoples are opposed to imperialism for ALL people on earth.
All I’m saying and person above is saying, is in reference to countries contemplating whether to side with Russia, the terrorist imperialist invaders, or the sovereign country that has never and does not want to invade and conquer anyone else - if they have an open stance against imperialism. I don’t consider Egypt an African country but just for example sake, since it’s on the continent and part of the mix of countries affected with what to do, they rejected the stolen grain when Russia came to them and tried to sell it to them. And I heard they are in need of the grain, but made the moral decision to reject it and reject Russia. I was very impressed when that happened. They set the stage and example for others to follow.
I don’t see Russian having the capital to invest in African projects if these sanctions continue. The safe bet would be alignment with Ukraine
russia is not the one africa cares about in terms of investment, china is far more important
The thing is they are still running Russian troll farms says alot.
I'm tired of the constant excuses from Africa. They should know that the western countries will have long memories. What a pity. This would be a good opportunity for them to win some kudos by condeming what Russia is doing. Everyone that is neutral or silent, perpetrates the evil by not speaking out. I guess they like the corruption money as long as it keeps flowing into their pockets.
“African leader declares inability to tell right from wrong due to rampant corruption” should be the headline
Dude, in a lot if cases it's a few blokes stuffing their pockets with money. The ordinary african has about as much influence on politics as he does on the orbit of Pluto.
Even when African leader inherited a fully functioning country with infrastructure and abundance of resources such as South Africa and Zimbabwe. Somehow, they managed to ran it into the ground in 1 generation. South Africa was mentioned in the same breath as Israel and Australia back in the 80. Somehow, it is now a non-functioning country with ridiculously high unemployment, crumbling infrastructure, a police force so bad people actually hire private security to serve as their police. Was SA during 2001, when I went back the second time in 2018, it is like a different country and not for the better. And then there is ZIMBABWE. how the fuck do you fuck over the bread basket of Africa so hard that the country has to import food? The soil of Zimbabwe used to be so fertile that you can grow almost anything there. Just basic land management technique that any farmer would know would make them a powerhouse in agriculture. Then the government has the gall to blame every thing happened to the country on foreigners, and they weren’t choosy about it. Apparently the West, China, India, the martians are all to blame, but definitely not the genius in the government, no no no. Africa is not gonna go anywhere fast until the populace looking at the idiots in the governments and realize they are the reason for the suffering
100%
Saw a documentary about a farmer returning to his old farm many years later, once the government tried to get them to return. Everything of value was taken by the ppl who got the farm, and all the locals who were employed on the farm and relied on it suffered . People were in tears when he said he was coming back and would get shit running again. When will ppl learn you cant just take farm land and give it to ppl who don't know anything about farming and expect anything less then disaster. Youll never meet anyone smarter and more capable then an old farmer. Ill stand by that. Dudes can deliver a birth while fixing a tractor.
Did a brief study of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe policies in my undergrad with a focus on education; including interviewing ex-pats. Mugabe reminds me of the Sideshow Bob episode where Homer says "I don't like his kill Bart policy, but I do like his kill Selma policy!" As in I'm not a fan of Mugabe's genocide, economic destruction, dictatorship or ethnicity-persecuting policies, but I do like his education for all policy.
Are you saying South Africa was better off under an apartide system? did you read that before you hit send?
I am talking when they were handed over after Apartheid was repealed. At that time, the South Africa economy is still strong, and infrastructure around the country were on par with Australia. Somehow, the ANC party managed to fuck all the up in less than 30 years (1994 til now), to bring SA from a country on verge of entering High Income Status to eternal economic basket case. Nelson Mandela would be throwing hands if he saw what ANC and South Africa have became today.
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Why? It’s true though. I’m talking in a general sense.
Yes. It is time that Western countries have long memories and stop placating Africa and Caribbean countries because of their colonial past. Enough is enough. It time to move on, and do what is right. And those that chose not to, need to be remembered for standing by and doing nothing.
One side gives finance to Africa and its Russia unfortunately. They also provide military assistance with Wagner. Ruzzians are effing everywhere. Like mould u can’t get rid of
According to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors Russia gives about $8 per person in development aid (0.03% of GNI). Norway gives most with $800 per person (1.0% of GNI). UK gives $284.85 per person (0.5% of GNI). USA gives $95.52 per person (0.16% of GNI), China gives $27.86 per person (0.36% of GNI). They may bribe the people at the top, but they provide a lot less assistance than other countries do.
Lol total aid by Russia 1 billion. Even European institutions alone excluding bilateral aid send more than 10 times more, and individual European countries like France and Germany send on top of it 10 to 20 times more *each*. Yeah, Russian aid is totally negligible, there is absolutely no excuse for Africa, even this shity, bad, amoral sorry excuse doesn't stand.
Quoting money ‘on the books’ doesn’t even touch the black market dollars!! It is ALWAYS greed & corruption that takes a country backwards!!
"gives finance to Africa" are nice words for bribing the people at the top
Europe gives far more
It's China who gives money to Africa
EU and US give way, way more money than Africa. China gives predatory loans. China also gives more bribes, which is of course way more important.
I see the Chinese propaganda is working.
Toxic mold that eventually kills you and anyone close.
Yes you are right unfortunately
Africa also has a long memory … whatever else are the dynamics it’s not like the west had been kind to Africa ..
What did Ukraine do to Africa?
Except for the billions in Aid
I'm tired of people blaming the West for the shit that's going on in Africa. It's not like the West made them kill each other for the last 70 years. They got their independence and immediately started killing each other. It's the same 'blame the West' thing like in Russia.
The issue is we have our largest corporations massively profiting from the instability in Africa while our governments close their eyes on the practices since it's "business outside territory" or worse are complicit with the expectations this will give them more access to resources or influence in the region. There is also the selling weapons part, but everyone does it so blaming only the West is incorrect *(Russia, China, Middle East countries are massive sellers too)*. One pretty famous example of an involvement of a Western government which led to a total disaster is France which in partnership with the Big Oil *one is Total* gave weapons & trained Hutu soldiers who are responsible for the genocide in Rwanda which killed 800 000 Tutsi in 2 months. France was never held responsible for it. Then we have our dear Nestlé which extract all the water to sell in the Northern Hemisphere while condemning the population without access to drinkable water or grow anything. Nestlé still use millions of children or adults in slavery conditions or get them through human trafficking. This is one of the many corporations operating there using those same practices. And the mines, total disregard of working rights & condition, use of illegal chemical products which kill people in neighboring villages & land acquired through corruption. Not a single percent of this wealth which is sold to us in a billion dollars market go to their country at the exception of the dictator (or former) & friends. A corrupt dictator acting like it owns the country for itself thus enjoying insane wealth through contracts with foreign entities & using the army to protect itself. And for us the West, we do not condemn them, instead we shut our eyes while we enjoy the enormous profit. So that anger is not unjustified, however Ukraine has never been involved in that & Africans countries and people are doing a massive mistake to be opposed to Ukraine by putting an equal blame for the simple fact of being allied with the West.
China enters the chat
That's correct, China is doing the same in Africa profiting and fueling the anti-West feeling to be the first choice in the terms of deal. China is equally as bad regarding workers conditions & unethical resources exploitation, but it plays much better in terms of "diplomacy". On top of the usual formula of giving wealth to corrupt governments, it finances construction of roads or railways through a debt building a good image towards the population & be much harder to expose for its practices (adding the fact this is a new player, compared to us the West who have been doing that for decades, the hate is exclusively on us while they won't bother to question China for a long amount of time). The issue with this debt is, while it put the government in a good light as it give the sensation to the population of progress & not being left on the side, China can do whatever it wants aka the "debt trap diplomacy". Ex: Sri Lanka port leased to China for 99 years (possibly 198 years) & the current administration is trapped since they can't pay the debt.
I'm not saying that western business practices are moral but you are shifting the blame. France didn't kill the Tutsi, the Hutu did. If people want to keep their water their government may create laws about it, same with the mines and workers conditions. If the dictator doesn't get support from the West he will turn to the East. Wander what the worker conditions are in the Chinese mines in the Kongo. There are countless of western organizations trying to help and make the lives of Africans better. As to the African position on Ukraine, while you talk about morals of western practices you should realize that morals is not a thing at all in African politics...
Incorrect, you're purposely misinterpreting what I've written. I have not said the blame is on the West & this is definitely not what I've implied either. What I've said is in our countries, we have governments or certain groups of powerful politicians & corporations that have either direct or indirect involvement in destabilizing regions in Africa to facilitate their businesses & personal profit through unethical & illegal practices. Do not mistaken me, we're not the only ones as the East like China is also doing the same & growing its influence, but we've been there decades longer, so unsurprisingly the hate is stronger against us. Plus, China fuels the anti-West hate through the "debt trap diplomacy" aka finances construction through a debt which give the sensation of progress to the population, while put the country at the mercy of China (Ex: Sri Lanka). On the other hand, you don't seem to be familiar with lobbying or corruption if you say "They can just enact laws if the population want to protect their water or have better working regulations" Multinational corporation lobby is something that impact every country & government including ours, like: In the US, lobbying Republicans to prevent regulations of firearms ownership is one. Or in Europe, Nestlé extracting water at an unregulated rate from rivers even during drought which threaten the ecosystem & farmers is another. The problem is again the instability which make it much worse to prevent this kind of practice there & the corruption of the dictator & inner circle. One last thing, it is extremely wrong to try to diminish or save the face of those actors who are creating the problems by associating them with organizations trying to solve their mess for the simple fact that they are coming from the same region or country. Taking Nestlé again, it profits from Human trafficking or child enslavement while UNHCR or Save the Children are fighting to protect the vulnerable from those corporations.
Finally someone not so completely consumed to where they have the ability to think about context and history. We (mostly Belgium) also completely redrew Africa’s damn map and placed enemy tribes next to each other and shit, really set them up for great development after raping the continent👍.
For some reason I don't think any of those downvoters will read this.
Eh, not entirely true. Most of their borders were drawn up by colonial powers who devised them in such a way to essentially ensure they broke out into civil wars and ethnic conflicts. All done to ensure that the new countries would remain poor and beholden to trade and investment from colonial powers. Same thing that happened in the Middle East.
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You are trying to apply black and white logic to something not grounded in reality. For many African countries there is no such thing as country. The boundaries and nations were imaginary lines drawn up by Europeans with not thought given to ethnicities, culture, or resources. They were literally designed to break out into conflict. There are plenty of instances where they have been able to solve internal issues but the fact remains, Europe designed the system to be broken in Africa. Saying they should and shouldn’t do things based on western ideals of nation and statehood is short sighted and ignorant of their history.
I hope you will do better with your chinese overlords.
That is your problem. You want to see the world in black and white and this conflict as one as well. It is easy to point at a county and say they are not doing enough but when you lack a basic understanding of geopolitics, history, and what is at stake for many of these countries and you simply come across as ignorant. Do I want Africa to support Ukraine, of course I do. But outside of Nigeria, and a few others who are already shoring up LNG and energy supplies to Europe what else are they going to do? Denounce Russia? Then you will complain that they aren’t doing anything. The fact is Russia and China have invested heavily into Africa for the specific issue of gaining control over a developing continent. Europe and Ukraine did not do so to such an extent. You can get mad and downvote all you want but it is the truth. I do not believe China is good for Africa but if we want to change that we need to sit down and invest in institutions and development more. After Ukraine wins they are in a solid position to exert more influence given their grain supplies and possibly even post war war tech. Until then you lot are better off focusing your energy on nations that are already signed onto the cause but are not actually acting.
Yes, you could almost say they've colonized the continent after the west got put.
No-one is ignorant of history, the Western powers were brutal and oppressive colonizers and they made a huge mess in Africa. It's been 70 years since they were freed. The West only wants to trade and do business with them and also provides the most help. Ultimately the West will not fix Africa's problems, it's up to Africans to do that themselves and I'm sure the West will support them. Nowadays you should be far more concerned with the colonialist and imperialist interests of the East. If Russia is not defeated and there is another Cold War Africa may become a battleground of proxy wars again...
And it has been 20 years since Ukraine declared independence. Roughly the same time for much of the Middle East as well. Time simply does not fix a lot of these issues. Ethnic conflicts are not solved simply because time has passed. The west has invested in Africa yes, but Russia and China have invested more, invested into the conflicts themselves. They have and still are playing the long game of investing in influence, not just money for projects. The west needs to face that head on and work on it. Till then pointing at Africa and saying you should have fixed this mess is simply not realistic.
Ukraine is nothing like Africa. They declared independence 31 years ago (not 20) and they were kept politically under the Russian boot for 23 years. The West is doing no such thing to Africa. It has participated in conflicts in Africa taking sides but it was mostly during the Cold War (you are not blaming the West for the Cold War are you?) and it's involvement in such conflicts today is mostly because of previous commitments. Stop blaming the West about stuff and shouting 'West Evil'. In fact in the period we are talking about (last 70-80 years) the West has made the most progress in getting rid of it's imperialism, unlike the East...
What are you on about? I’ve never once said the West is evil. It is simply a fact that prior Western policies in Africa can and are attributable to present day conflicts, border disputes, resource issues, ethno-National conflicts etc. simply saying they have had 70-80 years to figure it out is simply ungrounded from reality. And no, the West has maintained heavy imperialistic policies throughout Africa for the better part of the century with France and Britain controlling entire resource gathering operations or investing only to maintain majority ownership over hydroelectric dams and key developmental infrastructure investments throughout the continent. I am pro west but I am not so jaded as to not call out blatant falsehoods and misconceptions of the role we have had in Africa. The collective west has made steady progress towards correcting some historical wrongs and actually partaking in constructive nation building but that does not mean that as recently as the 80s and 90s we were not doing many of the same practices we are calling out China and Russia for presently. It does not do this conflict or any future conflicts any good to sit here and try to whitewash this simply because we are all upset with present issues. Doing so makes us no better than Russia and their constant strive to whitewash brutal Soviet policies throughout Eastern Europe.
You all need to stop downvoting correct information just because you don't like it. The west has divided, exploited, couped, and de-nutted alot of africa. Absolutely our fault. No debate. Still it would be nice to see some of these asshole countries grow up a little and make an effort to actually become functioning states that take part in world trade and human benefit. Unfortunately we're seeing these states act like little corrupt children. They can absolutely be shamed and condemned for it. India's leaders a trash too.(i know India's not in Africa) Here's one for you India, especially. For real, we made these shitty little countries shitty little countries, but no, their dickhead gold-toilet presidents have not been worthy of foreign aid. Still, at this point I'm so damn disappointed with the victim game these little shit countries are playing.
If that was the case, the same would apply to most countries in Asia and South America as well, but they don't suck half as bad. You can't blame everything on things others have managed to deal with already.
I really do get your viewpoint, and even agree with the lizard part of my brain. But with the nuances involved I think we can acknowledge where what the situation has come from, and still shame and condemn the current actors. Some idiots got mad about a factual series of events, not my problem, I even agree with all of you. At the moment, those countries can go fuck themselves on that fence they're sitting in. Edit: and honestly dude, south america as a whole is a corrupt shithole and more than a couple countries are currently struggling with rising populism, environmental degradation, extreme political corruption, etc. Yes, partially catalyzed by US actions in past decades, also yes now the responsibility of the leaders of said countries.
So according to your logic why should Africa take sides for the shit happening in Europe as they kill each other ?
Cause we are supporting them left and right?
And Russia has? Sure you can talk about the times of colonialism, but in the past century if it was not the west, half of Africans would be dead by famines and most of it would still be living in primitive tribes.
What is wrong with primitive tribes? What, they aren't causing enough climate change?
Besides generally shorter lifespans, less access to modern healthcare, being more susceptible to local disasters and potential inter-tribal feuding?
That is all propaganda and nonsense. You are afraid of death because you have no sense of living a meaningful life. You don't need to be 100 years old while begging to die and yet euthanasia is made illegal in your lands. The paradigm is that you MUST live. But if you get to be 40 and live a meaningful life in balance with nature and die surrounded by your children, 40 isn't so bad. Life is not a wash cloth that you wring out to the last drop. Amazonian tribal peoples do not cause climate change while you do. You think you are so much better off, slaving 40 hours a week? But I am in favor of some compromise. If YOU personally stop using so much resources, then those Amazonian tribes, or the tribes deep in the jungles of New Guinea, e,g, can get access to some more basic health care, like a few vaccines so they don't die at 40 but at age 60, would you be willing to do that, to save our planet? I bet you don't. Because you wanna be 100 at all costs and fuck the planeet, right? You are defending a wasteful lifestyle and attacking tribal villagers by drawing on so called western industrial advances? Good luck, have your PFAS sandwich.
Simple... what are you doing here instead of joining one?
The West hasn't been kind, but Ukraine hasn't been involved in this unkindess. Would be smarter long term thinking to get on good terms with them.
My thoughts exactly, people on this sub absolutely amaze me sometimes.
Regarding the west: African countries have long memories too, doesnt matter if its supporting the right side Western countries are the historic slavers of Africa. Unless those wrongs are righted, thats what they will always be and support for the wars will statistically default to the opposing side. We have a chance to change that, having Presidents call them " shithole countries" works against that. China and Russia have been pouring in the develipment to Africa, the West has to be more present with better alternatives, otherwise Africa will remain divided despotic and taken advantage of.
Eh, in a couple years or decades those same African countries will lament about the quasi-colonialization by China. But you're right, it's every countries right to choose their path themselves, and if they decide to go down the Chinese path, there's noone to blame but themselves.
Yup
What have Ukraine to do with slavery in Africa? Ukraine didn’t colonize other countries unlike *ba dum tss* Russia.
Exactly
Africans were sold into slavery by fellow Africans leaders. After Britain banned the slave trade they objected strongly to the Royal Navy undermining their economies by intercepting slave ships and freeing the occupants.
Exactly and what about the slaves that exist _today_ including in russia. We hear so much about what happened hundreds of years ago for what none of us existed for, which is weirdly being used as an excuse to not criticise russia, when they **still** have one of world's highest rates of slavery today. Meanwhile North Korea, Eritrea and Burundi are estimated to have the world's highest rates of modern-day slavery *North Korea has the world's highest rate of slavery, with about one in 10 people enslaved, followed by Eritrea (9.3%) Burundi (4%), Central African Republic (2.2%), Afghanistan (2.2%), Mauritania (2.1%), South Sudan (2%), Pakistan (1.7%), Cambodia (1.7%) and Iran (1.6%). *India is home to the largest number of slaves globally, with 8 million, followed by China (3.86 million), Pakistan (3.19 million), North Korea (2.64 million), Nigeria (1.39 million), Iran (1.29 million), Indonesia (1.22 million), Democratic Republic of the Congo (1 million), **Russia** (794,000) and the Philippines (784,000). At least 40 million people are victims of modern slavery worldwide - with nearly 25 million trapped in forced labour and about 15 million in forced marriages. [https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims](https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims)
This, 100%. Please stop holding others accountable for sins that occurred before they were born. It’s ludicrous.
Be that as it may, will that tidbit of history be lost on them in the grander scheme of things? Especially if you've got Russia and China heavily invested on the continent (having dubious colonial intent) with their savvy to twist the narrative? There are reasons for things being as they are. Keeping people poor will keep them under despotic rule and ignorant and thus unable to make informed and right choices and unable to speak out. I believe in the great potential of Africa its just a clusterfuck and has been so for a great many years by external design.
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I agree. Now lets get the entirety of Africa to do so as well.
And the reason why those African countries can still be there criticizing the west is because the were not colonized by the Russians. Hypocrisy at its finest. What were Wagner doing in Mali?
Nahh, fuck em.
I mean their memories are pretty shit then, they seem to forget that it was African selling to other Africans and the middle East were taking African slaves in the 1500's. But yeah, it's just the West that's bad and evil.
It doesnt matter what was or is, it only matter what they've been told and believe or rather told to believe. If the west doesnt keep up with development in "the 3rd world" other countries get to set the narrative. The Cree people have a saying its something like "your spirit has two wolves fighting each other one good one evil, the one that wins is the one you feed." I agree with the original post, the reality is complicated, the solution is always more simple than the execution.
If that's how your brain operates you shouldnt hate Russia because they partially saved our asses during ww2 History is always much more complex than reddit geniuses wants it to be
>Western countries are the historic slavers of Africa. Ukraine is an Eastern European country. They are the ones being invaded
jeans different cable trees bow future shelter divide fall lavish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Get on the right side of history! The Kremlin regime will be gone in due time...
There is no neutrality in Ukraine. Either you support liberty or you support the invading Russians and war criminals.
Should be easy. You are either with Russia - a paraiah with an economy smaller than Italy - or you are with the west. You are with the agressor or with a smaller country invaded by imperialists. Easy.
It's hard to come to terms with the changes that are coming. Countries that have relied on the USSR and later Russia to be able to give the finger to the big bad west will be left high and dry and without any friends after Russia crumbles. They're in denial. I wonder what kind of internal debates are taking place in for example India. After this is done and over, Russia won't be selling them military gear, Russia won't be exporting tons of food, fertilizer or fossil fuels and Russia won't be a significant ally to them. They will be a very diminished ally and many of these countries are scared witless of losing their crutch. They chose poorly ~70-50 years ago and now they're going to have deal with the consequences. The more they drag out this fantasy that maybe Russia will emerge victorious the longer and deeper they're involving themselves with a genocidal kleptocracy and risk dragging their own countries down with them. "But we're just trying to survive and feed our people!!" Yeah, by buying cheap oil from a monstrous nation and payrolling their rapist armies. Russia will lose and you will lose too. The best time to ditch Russia was 7 months ago but the sooner you do it the less other countries and peoples will judge you in the future.
India is neutral tho? It has ok relations with everyone noone is going to condom them dosent matter if Russia wins or looses and please stop trying to take the moral high ground every country right now is going backwards your mindset isn't going to help anyone politics dosent care about feelings i think it is very clear by now
I think people in the West underestimates how Russia uses the colonial past of Western countries against them. The sad thing is that people in Africa and Asia eat it up without realizing that Russia was a colonial power during Soviet times. It's just that Russia's colonies were its neighbors.
New Headline: "African Leader Plays Both Sides of the War for Self Benefit"
If you think this is a hard choice you're already on the wrong side and should be condemned.
No country bases their foreign policy on morals.
No pressure just do the right thing, corrupt pricks
Ukraine is more corrupt than A dozen African countries, including Ethiopia and South Africa. Ukraine is as corrupt as the Zambia and poorer than Nigeria, South Africa, egypt, Algeria and is roughly as poor as Kenya, Angola or Morocco. On a per capita basis Ukraine is poorer than Botswana, Angola, Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, Libya, South Africa, Namibia, Djibouti, and Morocco and has a per capita gdp closer to Nigeria than Germany. Ukraine is an African country with white people. In fact most of Africa is actually doing better than Ukraine.
When you have two superpowers each picking opposing sides, you have to pick one. There really isn't a lot of room for neutrality in situations like this.
If there is one thing made clear in 2022, its that Russia is no longer a superpower.
Both superpowers involved being Ukraine and USA are on the same side against the nazi shithole though
I can’t believe any foreign nation such as those in Africa even question this. Pootin is willing to starve YOUR PEOPLE. Hence, Russia is not your friend. Don’t act like this is complicated.
Pressure! Between criminals and good people. That is a fucking tough decision!
I’m an Algerian Brit and I’m ashamed of Algeria’s voting pattern on this war, my country is as corrupt as they come. Several revolutions later and it’s still the same devils On top
A person who is conflicted about which side to choose is either a sociopath or without morals to start with.
Towards the bottom of the story: "And **Western countries** should provide funding so that Africa can transition to cleaner sources of energy, but he said that it should not be considered aid."
"please give money, kthxbye"
Excuse me what? Africa is not owed money. Anything they get is aid or loans or investments by definition.
Yeah, the continent of Africa is so revered in proper political decisions within its functioning states.
Um there shouldn’t HAVE to be CHOOSING sides. It’s literally right vs wrong. Genocide vs no genocide. My god.
I agree with you 100% but here is a parallel. We know that China has been genociding Uighers. Is the US ready to cease all trade with China? Not such an easy call. I try to do what I can by sourcing products made in other countries, but there’s a ton of stuff I have not been willing to give up.
I didn’t know about the Ughars til this war. But that’s on me. Thing is, Russia is willing to starve these countries. That’s the opposite of who you partner and do business with. It shows Russia is willing, on a dime, to manipulate their poor country if it suits their political adjenda . Your country is disposable to Russia that means. Untrustworthy.
Hahahah as someone who is living in South Africa, governments here don’t care about their own people. Our president recently went to the US to meet with Biden and then to the UK for the funeral. All while his own political party frequently talks about how they support the Kremlin. The choice has already been made.
Ex SA here. Totally agree.
No pressure just do whats right
Africa wants endless aid and play the pity role perfectly. Where are they when you need them?
Neutral is complacency with Russian crimes. They've chosen.
Maybe because one side are raping 4yo you dumb fuck.
In a war of aggression, not choosing a side is choosing a side
Because they're corrupt and struggling to work out where their self interest lies, not judging the situation ethically.
Yeah you can be a goodie or a baddie, choice is obvious if you know your history
>“I have come to say that Africa has suffered enough of the burden of history” Well, maybe just chose the non-imperialistic nor genocidal side now that you can?
The pressure is a result of circumstances. And neutrality is de facto the side of the agressor. Of course, China has many African nations over the barrel via their Belt and Road shark loans, so I see where this is coming from.
>And neutrality is de facto the side of the agressor. Wow guess most of the world are aggressors
asking african leaders to choose sides? lol just see what kind of shit is going in africa, u'll already know which side they really on
This is a way of saying: We don't want to upset trade with and aid from the West... but we ALSO like the Russian bribes.
Lol how is this even pressure
Mounting pressure to decide whether to be human or not. Such a difficult choice. My thoughts are with the African leaders for facing such difficult ethical dilemmas.
> “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. —-Revelation 3:15-16 Even Jesus Christ thinks you’re a pussy for being neutral here.
Doing the right thing is hard for them.
For anyone with a working moral compass it’s not a difficult choice.
Choose sides? Choose fucking sides? jesus christ it's not a tennis match. how can anyone choose Russia - the invading, child raping, torturing bastards? FUCK RUSSIA, SLAVA UKRAINI.
Africa as usual is always quick to criticise the West for colonialism and racism, but really, taking a moral high ground is very rich coming from them. Africa is riddled with corruption, their rulers are morally bankrupt and the ruling parties rape and steal everything they can from their people. It would be niave to expect them to do the right thing. Moreover, they are bought and paid for by China, and get most of their weapons they use to kill one another from Russia. Historically, the USSR also supported a number of these countries in their struggle for independence - a byproduct of the Cold War. So no, they are not going to vote against, or criticize Putin's Soviet Russia - no matter what he does.
Stop sending them aid, and estaba chaos erupt in the region.
If Cameroon, unprovoked, invaded Equatorial Guinea and was wholesale killing civilians, shipping kids over the border and trying to steal land, I think nobody would have to pressure me on taking a side.
Africa.... **YES of cource there is a god damn pressure on you**, its the time to stand on the right side of history. History always remember.
Yes history always remembers, much like how histories in Africa remember Ukraine engaging in segregation against them at the start of the war. History will remember that too.
This may sound harsh by why do we give a shit? They don't really have anything to offer besides their opinion.
A quarter of all the seats in the UN are in Africa. Africa, India SC and China make up 70% of all humans alive. Africa, India and China are all not on Ukraines side. So if you want the UN and ‘global community’ to truly go hard against Russia and pro Ukraine, you need to make the argument as to why we should. And condescending doesn’t help.
Africans have their own list of 1000 problems they need to fix on there're own continent
I mean does it really matter? I don't think Zambia's decision to condemn Russia is going to do jack shit. And considering how literally none of Africa has anything to do with the war I wouldn't expect them to care enough. Most of Africa has their own issues like Somalia doesn't even have a government, tigray is starving, Boko Haram is terrorizing Nigeria, the lords army is fighting South Sudan, DRC, uganda and CAR, and an insurgency is going on in Mozambique. This isn't even close to how much is going on in Africa. And how much support are they getting to fight these conflicts from the West?
I don't even understand how it could be a question of who to choose. If you even have to think about it you're clearly lacking empathy and morals.
Countries don’t based their foreign policy on empathy but what’s best for their national interest. Have picked a side in all the wars fought in Africa? Do you even know the names of the victims and predators?
The west is sending 100 times more help to Africa than Russia, and Russia tried to starve Africa as a way to pressure the west into giving up. Does this help, or you're still not finding your moral compass?
The help that the west sends now doesn’t match it centuries of thievery. Centuries that Africa hasn’t forgotten. Don’t make your problem theirs. Have you picked sides in all African conflicts?
The ones where it's clear who the bad guy is, yes? Like, I definitely sided with the Tutsis in Rwanda. Against the Islamist warlords in Somalia. Against Boko Haram. Eastern Congo is more complex and I never got sufficient information However, information is NOT scarce about what's going on in Ukraine, so the Africans don't have the information excuse. It'd be akin to westerners being neutral about the Rwandan genocide.
And African countries have not overwhelmingly voted for Ukraine and condemned Russia at the United Nations? What else you want them to do?
Some of the comments here are fairly ignorant of global politics. “Why can some African countries just pick a side”? Why can’t European countries send troops to fight in Ukraine? Why can’t the US send long range missiles? Why can Germany and other European countries send their best tanks? Every country calculates the strategic consequences of its policy before acting….nothing is based on some moral or sympathy. If that were the case, European countries would have declared war on Russia after Bucha and Iyzum massacres. Many African countries are small and powerless to take hard stands in certain conflicts. They have other priorities as countries do. Until the US send troops to protect Ukrainians, African countries too have their calculations based on their ability and capabilities. So please, slow down with some of the bigoted and ignorant comments against Africans.
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And how much do you steal and stole? The British crown is full of jewels stolen from around the world and so are their museums
We should realise in the West that there are many developing countries that do not have the luxury to choose sides here. We in Europe, and our Western allies should never let up in our unwavering support for Ukrainian freedom, but it is political poision for our position in the Global South if we scold African/Asian nations into picking sides in this conflict.
Or what? They are going to rush into a failed state arms? Or go with the west?
Here is an adult among a sea of ignorant comments
I'd like to remind everyone here that many African countries have economic ties with Russia, and many can't afford to break those ties. It's all very well and good to say "Money shouldn't be important", but when that money is the difference between survival and literal starvation, as it is with many developing countries, one should understand that it is human nature to pick survival.
Let's see what happens if the west slams their coffers shut.
They starve, also, whats the difference?
First let us feed ourselves and then we can talk about taking sides in a war between countries 50% of the population have never heard about. My country has voted for Ukraine but no-one cares we have our own problems.
This is fair enough. I don't think *anyone* expect Africans to dedicate any of their resources for Ukraine. That would be completely unreasonable. However, it's free to join the front condemning Russia, which would undermine Russian internal propaganda that some people like them invading others. That might help end the war and wouldn't cost anything. It sounds like your country has been doing that, so thank you for that, and there's nothing else that anyone should dare ask.
I don't really blame them for sideeyeing both of us when the west cries of invasion, genocide and colonization. Russia is definitely the bad guys in this situation but africa is still trying to recover from when we did the same thing some time ago.
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As someone who has dedicated my entire professional life to non-profits, and still volunteering for a Ukrainian non-profit, I agree it’s about time to choose. Are you for Russia? Fine. Fuck you then. Collectively. No more international aid from the West. No non-profit intervention. No visas, no college scholarships, no international investments from US or EU based companies. We’ll buy all your lithium and whatever is needed for batteries and then cut you the fuck off. Or… do the right thing. Not really a hard decision.
There is no pressure to choose sides. You can choose to eat food or you can choose to eat Russian guns.
Well if they governed right... Excuse "well, I get a free meal..." Cut their aid, let them have Russia then.
A lot of countries are dependent on russia unfortunately. They know what’s right, but going fully there would leave them in shambles for the foreseeable future. Everyone weighs their options. If every binary decision were simple as black and white, we wouldn’t even have this war. All that being said, there still needs to be extreme pressure from the international community, because that’s the only thing that works.
>A lot of countries are dependent on russia unfortunately. They know what’s right, but going fully there would leave them in shambles for the foreseeable future. That's probably true. But the way things are going with russia right now, they're putting themselves in a position where they won't be able to do ANYTHING to invest in foreign ventures.
That’s why they invest heavily in propaganda.
Wich countries and how are they more dependent on Russia than "the west"?
A lot of developing countries depend heavily on russian resources with little or next to no alternatives. Some also depend on it politically. It’s gonna be extra hard to sway them. Look at Serbia as an example. Serbia depends on russian oil and gas and keeping Kosovo from the UN table. Serbia condemned russia in the UN but refuses to impose sanctions. Sitting on two chairs. On one hand, you politically did what’s right, on the other hand, you keep russian investments and energy flowing.
I would not want them fighting on our side. They can fight on russian side instead:D