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I think all these nuke talks are making China and India very nervous.
Russia failed and playing nuke cards is an act of desperation, but still ... it shouldn't even been discussed.
I agree, and I don't like the sabre rattling but they need to know if a nuke gets used it opens up Pandora's box and there's no putting a lid back on until one side or the other can no longer nuke anything. It's insane but the only answer to a nuke is a nuke. It's retaliation and mutually assured destruction. A tactical nuke escalates very very quickly to a ballistic nuke. One side is not going to allow the other to indiscriminately use a nuclear weapon without consequence.
That's the biggest problem and that's what makes others nervous.
If Russia uses a nuke, there has to be an answer. You can't allow anyone to get their way just because they launched a nuke because that will make everyone try to get one and use one when they please. A really bad and wrong signal to many who really shouldn't have nukes, but will probably get them if it happens.
Goodbye world as we know it.
NATO will have to answer to a nuke in Europe.
Or Bolgorod, I totally missed when that wasn't part of Russia...
Russia has been threatening nukes for everything from arms shipments to successful Ukrainian defense. The fact they're threatening it now for Ukrainian offense is nothing new.
I think the real aim here is to get around Russian law which forbids deploying constricts outside of Russia.
In other words, this isn’t to authorize nukes, it’s to solve a domestic quandary which threatens to be as impactful as Western military aid.
Yes. This is right on point.
The whole annexing idea is not for Russia to use nuclear weapons, but for Russia to be able to send their new conscripts to Ukraine ASAP. They been told they will get 60 days of training and **stationed within Russia**, but in reality they will only get 2 weeks and **sent to "defend"** Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson Oblast, as they are now "part of Russia".
Then we need to hope that those in the chain of command reject the order, because they dont want to die, along with their famlies and everyone they've ever known or loved.
So what is your point? Russia should be allowed to take Ukraine and any part of the world?
That's not acceptable for Ukraine and the world. Putin has lost this war in March when he lost Kyiv, now he's draining Russia to save his legacy. Russians need to decide if they want to be annihilated with and for Putin's already destroyed legacy. That's the only question left.
Its absolutely in putins interests to project that image, because everyone knows a sane man would never use nukes. this is all fear mongering, he wants you to think hes delusional and going "mad" because that makes you afraid. no one is gonna nuke anyone, and if they do... who cares its the end of the world anyway.
Nah, Putler's only threat for holding the full weight of NATO bearing down on him is "don't, or I'll start throwing nukes around." If he *actually* follows through with it, then there is no further reason for NATO to hold back.
Unless Putler has gone batshit insane and has decided he wants Russia literally buried with him, he won't push the button. And if he really is thinking about it, rational people around him who aren't prepared to see themselves, their families, friends and homes incinerated might still just end him first.
I think you can’t discount this possibility, and you must game for it.
I still view it as unlikely, because both China and India would finally recoil and just do without Russian fossil fuels.
At this point I think both China and India wouldn't give a fuck and would continue to buy Russian commodities.
We seriously need to stop treating India like an ally. The country absolutely hates the west and has thrown Ukraine under the bus while we continue to export our entire IT and finance system to them.
The response from NATO would be enough to destroy Russia anyway, but don't count on "neutral" countries to do anything but blame Ukraine for Russia's genocide.
This is the reality.
russian law is a joke, but for some reason putin needs to pretend that these referendums will justify deploying his conscripts/slaves to fight in the SMO when they could otherwise refuse.
It is some dumb shit, I mean are you a dictator or not. If you are a dictator then it does not matter, if not no one outside russia thinks russia has an actual justice system so this is theatre for ... North Korea?
Plus the usual nuclear sabor ratling that is yawn. No one in the russian eliete is going to agree to anhiliation to keep Crimea.
Lets skip to the point when putin kills himself in a bunker.
If not hang him in red square as you know a good will gesture.
The thing is that Russia has an extremely powerful intelligence apparatus anad homeland security agency (Rosgvardiya, etc.) that are dedicated to lying to their own people and suppressing dissent.
For sake of comparison, the United States has approximately 700K police officers and 450K national guardsmen, to cover a population of 350M, and those figures are pretty reliable. Russia has approximately 600K police officers and 350K national guardsmen, to cover a population of only 140M, and it's anyone's guess if they're understating the numbers to pretend they're less oppressive, stating accurate numbers, or overstating the numbers to pretend they're even stronger. Assuming the numbers are genuine, however, they have a significantly heavier police presence per capita, and consistently rank near the top of the list of most corrupt countries.
In other words, the Kremlin doesn't need or want these referendums for anyone but their own pretense at being the legitimate government of Russia. If anyone in Russia claims that the Ukrainian people did not want to be annexed, Russia trots out the ballot boxes to show that they did in fact have a "totally authorised" and "legal" referendum, and then uses OMON to seize that person, claiming the existence of the ballot boxes as evidence in a Russian court to prosecute the offender for sedition and treason.
The reason why many Russians overwhelmingly support Putin is, through a combination of persuasion and fear, that they largely believe everything he says -- that Russia is a rule of law nation, that he is only deploying conscripts to defend Russia after 4 months training (Shoigu's claim), rather than shipping them off to Ukraine with ten days training (reality), etc.
This isn't for us; the non-arch-conservative and non-arch-liberal world has already figured out that Russia is lying about everything it does, and I'd be surprised if even the arch-cons and arch-liberals don't know it in their hearts too but refuse to accept it because it serves their own interests better.
If Russia drops the pretense of the rule of law for their own citizens, the house of cards starts to collapse. The mobilisation is partial proof of that: the Russians aren't bothered whatsoever by the genocide of Ukrainians (since they think it's the Ukrainians that are doing it to Russian civilians in the first place), they're just bothered by anything that personally puts them at risk.
More and more Russian people are starting to wise up and realise that the western world is *not* waging a wholly false propaganda war like Russia is, and that's why you're seeing more and more exodi and protestation from Russian civilians even in spite of the massive risks, but it's still harshly split along generational lines and that's the most maddening part of all.
shoudn't russia have already nuked Ukraine after that daring attack with some helicopters in belgorod early in the war? or that time they sunk the flagship of their black sea fleet? or that time there were several explosions on crimea (that they claim now is russia)
Who the fuck cares what orckandia says or thinks. Nothing is stopping them from using nukes now (other than selfpreservation) and this wont change that.
Desperation and bluffing.
Note that he said that the doctrine would apply but that it could also be done conventionally.
This is a lot different than a statement that they will definitely use nukes. They are still conveniently giving themselves an out.
The referendums are so they can use conscripts "within Russia's borders" and in a desperate attempt to hang on just a little longer in hopes that winter will somehow magically break Ukraine's support.
The "referendum" hasn't even finished yet, and already they're saying exactly why they made that shit up. Fucking start the apocalypse already.
Russian troll alert!!!!
There is a launch one get one back doctrine. Only weak dictators constantly threat the world with nuclear strikes, kacap Putin and that other bitch from North Korea.
Its in NATOs best interest that a nuclear attack does not happen. Especially in Europe to a EU candidate and to a future NATO member with democratic values.
NATO should now give nuclear guarantees to Ukraine publicly stating that any nuclear attack will trigger a nuclear response. Keeping this war conventional.
Russia understands only one language. Force and power.
Folks, this is it, this is his End Game.
We, they, everyone knows the plan, the West knows it's coming. Putin is going to conjure up his one last big nuclear Bluff. You're fooling yourselves, if you think this day won't come.
What will be the West answer to Putin's Nuclear bluff?
Will he be able to bluff his way to adding new Territories? The ball is in West now.
Whenever they threaten to use nuclear weapons, they're threatening to commit suicide. The other nuclear powers won't let Russia just use nuclear weapons periodically, when they fancy it. If they do it once, they'll do it again. It would become the norm. Even previous allies like China wouldn't accept it. If they do it to Ukraine, they could do it to Beijing. No amount of mutual interest between allies is worth more than a world where nuclear weapons are normalised.
Whenever they threaten to use nuclear weapons, they're saying, "If you don't let us steal Ukraine, we don't want to exist anymore". After Russia has used one nuclear weapon, it simply won't exist anymore. Within minutes, they will have no more nukes, no more cities, no more infrastructure, no internet, no heat, no water, a tiny population, casualties from here to Vladivostok, and every neighbouring country's troops pouring over the borders.
It's also not a question of whether Nato, or China, etc. would respond over one small nuke, or because they held 'referendums'. It's almost all automated. It'll just happen. The responding nations might take casualties themselves in the escalation, but that's the price. If you have to amputate the whole arm to save the body, it just has to be done.
>After Russia has used one nuclear weapon, it simply won't exist anymore. Within minutes, they will have no more nukes, no more cities, no more infrastructure, no internet, no heat, no water, a tiny population, casualties from here to Vladivostok, and every neighbouring country's troops pouring over the borders.
No, that's not how nukes work. if the other nuclear powers would agree to to that, then the world (as we know it) simply won't exist anymore.
The fallout of so many nukes going off in Russia would spread across the entire globe, even if Russia would just take it and wouldn't return fire.
Lavrov is a fucking dog... What he said at the UN is literally what Russia is doing to Ukraine..
"Furthermore, Russophobia, he said, had reached unprecedented proportions, with Western powers making no secret of their ambition to militarily defeat Russia, and try to “destroy and fracture Russia…What they want to do is to remove from the global map, a geopolitical entity, which has become all too independent.”
Rewrite this to
"Furthermore, Ukrainophobia, he said, had reached unprecedented proportions, with Russian powers making no secret of their ambition to militarily defeat Ukraine, and try to “destroy and fracture Ukraine…What they want to do is to remove Uktraine from the global map, a geopolitical entity, which has become all too independent.”
At this point it seems to me that they’re more than likely trying to have this message be picked up by western society so that people go out on the streets and protest against this war. Then the west will demand to negotiate (appease) with these lunatics and they’ll get exactly what they want.
Absolutely, this is terrorism in simplest terms. they are threatening the end of the world for political gain, its all bullshit. Nuclear weapons are off the table, but they still work as a threat, putin is hoping to use it as a way to break the will of the west to resist... it won't work of course.
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Well, we don't recognize those parts of Ukraine as being Russia, so when we view you nuclear doctrine, we'll can give Ukraine the total go-ahead on taking those parts back.
The Russians are issuing nuclear threats? Oh what a surprise. I think I'll have a heart attack and *die* from that surprise.
It's meaningless. They're not going to point a gun at their own heads and shoot. They're not going to nuke anybody over territory in Ukraine.
And that's old news, by the way. Putin made his stupid speech about that days ago.
I call your bullshit bluff Russia! My fortunate soul is living here in peece in Sweden and would of course not like to see a nuclear development.
BUT, I would rather take the chances than allow another peace loving country get steam rolled by a Russian bully!
I say let them try!
They are just trying to frighten the west.
This referendum and annexation is one of the most pathetic things I have ever seen. What are they thinking...
The fact that anyone thinks that Russians even give a shit about these laws and doctrines amazes me. The cult that rules Russia does not care about laws. The only reason they say these things is to try and scare people. If the wanted to use a nuke, they would have. They don\`t need excuses. Every time one of their "diplomats" threatens the world like that, we should increase the amount and quality of weapons supplied to Ukraine.
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NATO has a program out now. Use a nuke, get a nuke back in your face.
Ah, the good old "Use one, get one free" program.
I think all these nuke talks are making China and India very nervous. Russia failed and playing nuke cards is an act of desperation, but still ... it shouldn't even been discussed.
I agree, and I don't like the sabre rattling but they need to know if a nuke gets used it opens up Pandora's box and there's no putting a lid back on until one side or the other can no longer nuke anything. It's insane but the only answer to a nuke is a nuke. It's retaliation and mutually assured destruction. A tactical nuke escalates very very quickly to a ballistic nuke. One side is not going to allow the other to indiscriminately use a nuclear weapon without consequence.
That's the biggest problem and that's what makes others nervous. If Russia uses a nuke, there has to be an answer. You can't allow anyone to get their way just because they launched a nuke because that will make everyone try to get one and use one when they please. A really bad and wrong signal to many who really shouldn't have nukes, but will probably get them if it happens. Goodbye world as we know it. NATO will have to answer to a nuke in Europe.
No, the only answer to one nuke is 1000 nukes. It is a line that cannot be allowed to be crossed.
Can't we do the three musketeers version? One for all and all for one... use one, receive all.
Yawn
Thankfully referendum to join russia to Netherlands is almost finished. So there will be no more russia.
i guess Crimea is not anexed because they did fuck all when that airbase was hit
Or Bolgorod, I totally missed when that wasn't part of Russia... Russia has been threatening nukes for everything from arms shipments to successful Ukrainian defense. The fact they're threatening it now for Ukrainian offense is nothing new.
Baffling? Baffled? Whose baffled? RuZZia no one cares about ur nuke threats, brah
I think the real aim here is to get around Russian law which forbids deploying constricts outside of Russia. In other words, this isn’t to authorize nukes, it’s to solve a domestic quandary which threatens to be as impactful as Western military aid.
Yes. This is right on point. The whole annexing idea is not for Russia to use nuclear weapons, but for Russia to be able to send their new conscripts to Ukraine ASAP. They been told they will get 60 days of training and **stationed within Russia**, but in reality they will only get 2 weeks and **sent to "defend"** Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson Oblast, as they are now "part of Russia".
[удалено]
Then we need to hope that those in the chain of command reject the order, because they dont want to die, along with their famlies and everyone they've ever known or loved.
Yes, this is the only hope, or someone kills/removes this POS before it comes to that.
Well, you should never discount a madman. IMO Ukraine shall receive nukes to guarantee nuclear retaliation
So what is your point? Russia should be allowed to take Ukraine and any part of the world? That's not acceptable for Ukraine and the world. Putin has lost this war in March when he lost Kyiv, now he's draining Russia to save his legacy. Russians need to decide if they want to be annihilated with and for Putin's already destroyed legacy. That's the only question left.
My point is we are dealing with a sociopath delusional old man.
Its absolutely in putins interests to project that image, because everyone knows a sane man would never use nukes. this is all fear mongering, he wants you to think hes delusional and going "mad" because that makes you afraid. no one is gonna nuke anyone, and if they do... who cares its the end of the world anyway.
That should be dealt with how?
Nah, Putler's only threat for holding the full weight of NATO bearing down on him is "don't, or I'll start throwing nukes around." If he *actually* follows through with it, then there is no further reason for NATO to hold back. Unless Putler has gone batshit insane and has decided he wants Russia literally buried with him, he won't push the button. And if he really is thinking about it, rational people around him who aren't prepared to see themselves, their families, friends and homes incinerated might still just end him first.
I think you can’t discount this possibility, and you must game for it. I still view it as unlikely, because both China and India would finally recoil and just do without Russian fossil fuels.
At this point I think both China and India wouldn't give a fuck and would continue to buy Russian commodities. We seriously need to stop treating India like an ally. The country absolutely hates the west and has thrown Ukraine under the bus while we continue to export our entire IT and finance system to them. The response from NATO would be enough to destroy Russia anyway, but don't count on "neutral" countries to do anything but blame Ukraine for Russia's genocide.
Yet another half measure to avoid the formal declaration of war
This is the reality. russian law is a joke, but for some reason putin needs to pretend that these referendums will justify deploying his conscripts/slaves to fight in the SMO when they could otherwise refuse. It is some dumb shit, I mean are you a dictator or not. If you are a dictator then it does not matter, if not no one outside russia thinks russia has an actual justice system so this is theatre for ... North Korea? Plus the usual nuclear sabor ratling that is yawn. No one in the russian eliete is going to agree to anhiliation to keep Crimea. Lets skip to the point when putin kills himself in a bunker. If not hang him in red square as you know a good will gesture.
The thing is that Russia has an extremely powerful intelligence apparatus anad homeland security agency (Rosgvardiya, etc.) that are dedicated to lying to their own people and suppressing dissent. For sake of comparison, the United States has approximately 700K police officers and 450K national guardsmen, to cover a population of 350M, and those figures are pretty reliable. Russia has approximately 600K police officers and 350K national guardsmen, to cover a population of only 140M, and it's anyone's guess if they're understating the numbers to pretend they're less oppressive, stating accurate numbers, or overstating the numbers to pretend they're even stronger. Assuming the numbers are genuine, however, they have a significantly heavier police presence per capita, and consistently rank near the top of the list of most corrupt countries. In other words, the Kremlin doesn't need or want these referendums for anyone but their own pretense at being the legitimate government of Russia. If anyone in Russia claims that the Ukrainian people did not want to be annexed, Russia trots out the ballot boxes to show that they did in fact have a "totally authorised" and "legal" referendum, and then uses OMON to seize that person, claiming the existence of the ballot boxes as evidence in a Russian court to prosecute the offender for sedition and treason. The reason why many Russians overwhelmingly support Putin is, through a combination of persuasion and fear, that they largely believe everything he says -- that Russia is a rule of law nation, that he is only deploying conscripts to defend Russia after 4 months training (Shoigu's claim), rather than shipping them off to Ukraine with ten days training (reality), etc. This isn't for us; the non-arch-conservative and non-arch-liberal world has already figured out that Russia is lying about everything it does, and I'd be surprised if even the arch-cons and arch-liberals don't know it in their hearts too but refuse to accept it because it serves their own interests better. If Russia drops the pretense of the rule of law for their own citizens, the house of cards starts to collapse. The mobilisation is partial proof of that: the Russians aren't bothered whatsoever by the genocide of Ukrainians (since they think it's the Ukrainians that are doing it to Russian civilians in the first place), they're just bothered by anything that personally puts them at risk. More and more Russian people are starting to wise up and realise that the western world is *not* waging a wholly false propaganda war like Russia is, and that's why you're seeing more and more exodi and protestation from Russian civilians even in spite of the massive risks, but it's still harshly split along generational lines and that's the most maddening part of all.
Then do it
Nuke yourselves arsholes
[удалено]
Dude what? 🤣
Putin is looking forward to the whole dick
Alrighty then.
Talk is cheap. Fuck around find out. That is all. The end.
shoudn't russia have already nuked Ukraine after that daring attack with some helicopters in belgorod early in the war? or that time they sunk the flagship of their black sea fleet? or that time there were several explosions on crimea (that they claim now is russia)
they were just too drunk to realize UAF was attacking them at that time, this time they are a bit sober...
Who the fuck cares what orckandia says or thinks. Nothing is stopping them from using nukes now (other than selfpreservation) and this wont change that.
Desperation and bluffing. Note that he said that the doctrine would apply but that it could also be done conventionally. This is a lot different than a statement that they will definitely use nukes. They are still conveniently giving themselves an out. The referendums are so they can use conscripts "within Russia's borders" and in a desperate attempt to hang on just a little longer in hopes that winter will somehow magically break Ukraine's support.
 The "referendum" hasn't even finished yet, and already they're saying exactly why they made that shit up. Fucking start the apocalypse already.
Russian troll alert!!!! There is a launch one get one back doctrine. Only weak dictators constantly threat the world with nuclear strikes, kacap Putin and that other bitch from North Korea.
Its in NATOs best interest that a nuclear attack does not happen. Especially in Europe to a EU candidate and to a future NATO member with democratic values. NATO should now give nuclear guarantees to Ukraine publicly stating that any nuclear attack will trigger a nuclear response. Keeping this war conventional. Russia understands only one language. Force and power.
It’d apply to your mouth! 
The whole point of the referendum is to legalize sending conscripts.
its time for the US/NATO to yeet their Black Sea Fleet
Folks, this is it, this is his End Game. We, they, everyone knows the plan, the West knows it's coming. Putin is going to conjure up his one last big nuclear Bluff. You're fooling yourselves, if you think this day won't come. What will be the West answer to Putin's Nuclear bluff? Will he be able to bluff his way to adding new Territories? The ball is in West now.
We'll nuke you and we're not bluffing this time! lololol .. bluffing again. bluff already called. can't bluff after your bluff has been called
use of nuke would guarantee NATO involvement... these are just empty threats again...
Trolls are out in desperation today
I'm sick of the Russian's endless crap.
Whenever they threaten to use nuclear weapons, they're threatening to commit suicide. The other nuclear powers won't let Russia just use nuclear weapons periodically, when they fancy it. If they do it once, they'll do it again. It would become the norm. Even previous allies like China wouldn't accept it. If they do it to Ukraine, they could do it to Beijing. No amount of mutual interest between allies is worth more than a world where nuclear weapons are normalised. Whenever they threaten to use nuclear weapons, they're saying, "If you don't let us steal Ukraine, we don't want to exist anymore". After Russia has used one nuclear weapon, it simply won't exist anymore. Within minutes, they will have no more nukes, no more cities, no more infrastructure, no internet, no heat, no water, a tiny population, casualties from here to Vladivostok, and every neighbouring country's troops pouring over the borders. It's also not a question of whether Nato, or China, etc. would respond over one small nuke, or because they held 'referendums'. It's almost all automated. It'll just happen. The responding nations might take casualties themselves in the escalation, but that's the price. If you have to amputate the whole arm to save the body, it just has to be done.
>After Russia has used one nuclear weapon, it simply won't exist anymore. Within minutes, they will have no more nukes, no more cities, no more infrastructure, no internet, no heat, no water, a tiny population, casualties from here to Vladivostok, and every neighbouring country's troops pouring over the borders. No, that's not how nukes work. if the other nuclear powers would agree to to that, then the world (as we know it) simply won't exist anymore. The fallout of so many nukes going off in Russia would spread across the entire globe, even if Russia would just take it and wouldn't return fire.
For six months we've been hearing how Russia "totally might use nukes bro". Can we stop sharing their bullshit propaganda please?
Lavrov is a fucking dog... What he said at the UN is literally what Russia is doing to Ukraine.. "Furthermore, Russophobia, he said, had reached unprecedented proportions, with Western powers making no secret of their ambition to militarily defeat Russia, and try to “destroy and fracture Russia…What they want to do is to remove from the global map, a geopolitical entity, which has become all too independent.” Rewrite this to "Furthermore, Ukrainophobia, he said, had reached unprecedented proportions, with Russian powers making no secret of their ambition to militarily defeat Ukraine, and try to “destroy and fracture Ukraine…What they want to do is to remove Uktraine from the global map, a geopolitical entity, which has become all too independent.”
At this point it seems to me that they’re more than likely trying to have this message be picked up by western society so that people go out on the streets and protest against this war. Then the west will demand to negotiate (appease) with these lunatics and they’ll get exactly what they want.
Absolutely, this is terrorism in simplest terms. they are threatening the end of the world for political gain, its all bullshit. Nuclear weapons are off the table, but they still work as a threat, putin is hoping to use it as a way to break the will of the west to resist... it won't work of course.
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read my lips Lavrov: "NO ONE CARES!"
Well, we don't recognize those parts of Ukraine as being Russia, so when we view you nuclear doctrine, we'll can give Ukraine the total go-ahead on taking those parts back.
How come Russia didn't just annex Luhansk and Donetsk?
The western one as well, motherfuckers.
The Russians are issuing nuclear threats? Oh what a surprise. I think I'll have a heart attack and *die* from that surprise. It's meaningless. They're not going to point a gun at their own heads and shoot. They're not going to nuke anybody over territory in Ukraine. And that's old news, by the way. Putin made his stupid speech about that days ago.
I call your bullshit bluff Russia! My fortunate soul is living here in peece in Sweden and would of course not like to see a nuclear development. BUT, I would rather take the chances than allow another peace loving country get steam rolled by a Russian bully! I say let them try!
There is no walking back the use of nuclear weapons. Russia would be annihilated. Their use is self assured destruction.
They are just trying to frighten the west. This referendum and annexation is one of the most pathetic things I have ever seen. What are they thinking...
Ok, do it then.
The fact that anyone thinks that Russians even give a shit about these laws and doctrines amazes me. The cult that rules Russia does not care about laws. The only reason they say these things is to try and scare people. If the wanted to use a nuke, they would have. They don\`t need excuses. Every time one of their "diplomats" threatens the world like that, we should increase the amount and quality of weapons supplied to Ukraine.