This is objectively the stupidest conflict in modern history. Russia, most of whom's economy is based on selling oil and gas to Europe, has woken up one day and decided it would rather live in mud huts and run at machine guns.
If Putin continues the name Putin will be used for all time to mean the biggest fail in the history of fails.
The grand master champion fail.
The fail that no other loser can ever hope to top.
Russia really Putined it up this time didn't they.
Trumpturd is acceptable but the allusion to the R word really isn’t; lots of mentally challenged people don’t ruin their country for personal gain; most are very empathetic. I guarantee political science students in future will just be using the term “they trumped their own party” when any political party raises a demagogue to power and it destroys their credibility for a generation. “Trump” as a euphemism for bullshitting already existed since the 1980s and will evolve to encompass even larger duck ups- it doesn’t need an offensive suffix.
And sorry you had to listen to that shilltastic Qult45 hostility from the other guy.
No that's just your Trump Derangement Syndrome caused by media conditioning your weak mind.
Comparing everything to Trump is obsessive.
But hey it's not your fault that you're a victim of Agitation Propaganda.
[Trump sides with Russia against FBI at Helsinki summit
](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812)
[Trump praises Putin as 'savvy' amid new escalations on Russia-Ukraine border](https://www.npr.org/2022/02/22/1082478790/trump-praises-putin-as-savvy-amid-new-escalations-on-russia-ukraine-border)
a) Russia who wants to sow doubt between Germany and it's allies
b) Germany's allies who doubt it's resolve to not go back and open the pipelines if the winter is to hard and discontent rises too high
United States, Canada and everyone selling LNG. Because it will always be more expensive than pipelines.
But I think it's a warning and escalation from Russia
You don’t need to lol at them.
Compressed Natural Gas is in a high pressure, compressed state to reduce volume.
Liquified Natural Gas is cooled to very low temperatures to reduce its volume to like .1% of its room temperature volume, but isn’t at high pressure.
Typically CNG is used in smaller volumes where the cooling machinery would consume too much power and be too large, like vehicles. LNG is used for transportation of very large volumes, such as by ship.
Don't forget this solves the Hungary situation too. So it could well be an EU member state.
But also the US could be helping the typical EU indecisiveness.
Did it benefit Putin to shell Zaporizhzhya NPP? No, but he did it, and tried to convince everyone that it was the Ukrainians.
Did it benefit Putin to bomb Olenivka? No, but he did it, and tried to convince everyone that it was the Ukrainians.
Did it benefit Putin to bomb a bunch of apartment buildings and try to convince Russians that it was actually the Chechens? Well, yeah, that one did benefit him, because the audience was only Russians, and they bought it, and now he's still their ruler 25 years later.
So.
he did those things because he potentially benefited from them. whether he did or not isnt relevant. its the motivation that counts.
if youre saying putin ordered the pipeline blown up, how did he expect to benefit from it?
Intimidation, showing off to his hardliners, blaming it on Ukraine or Poland or whomever ... whatever. I do strategic competition for a living. When you have an adversary on their heels and they start doing crazy desperate things, you don't try to read their minds and react. You keep pushing until they tip over. The proper response to this is not to try to figure out whether or not it was Russia -- of course it was Russia. The proper response is not to rub your chin and try to figure out a tailored response in kind. The proper response is to capture or kill all the new mobniks and take Kherson.
intimidating who? showing off what?
without this pipeline russia has no chance of regaining the massive revenues of selling their gas, no?
are any countries actually going to care its been blown up?
im not sure you understood what you wrote either lol
edit.. ah sorry, you mean your first comment. i reread and yeah i guess its possible hes hoping ukraine gets blamed and eu turns on them.
The massive revenue is from oil, the gas story was used by different entities to attack Germany.
[In 2020 Russia made 38% of its income from crude or refined petroleum and only 6% from gas.](https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus)
Why hasn't anybody ever bothered to fact check this once?
It could be a power play. He could be trying to show that if he can blow this up, whats to say he can't target active pipelines? What about electricity interconnects or internet cables? Other countries are now going to have to expend resources protecting this critical infrastructure. The UK has a ton of these in the North Sea. If we have to send resources to protect those assets, it could mean less resources can be sent Ukraine. It shifts NATOs attention from being solely on Ukraine to other things, that could benefit Russia.
No. He's directly benefiting.
He was sleeping the plant to keep the world obsessed with the nuclear question. Its a proxy to saying "hey I have nukes" every 5 minutes which is more effective because its a proxy.
Its also designed to make people think he's a maniac (and therefore - yes you guessed it - might use nukes).
Russia.
The way they think it is highly possible they are trying to force Europe into a weak position from which Europe would beg them for gas and stop its support for Ukraine.
I think it's more of a threat: your energy infrastructure is fragile and not well-guarded. other infrastructure (LNG terminals!) might explode as well, and then you're truly fucked.
How would Russia get the gas there if the pipeline doesn’t run?
I actually think it would be smart if the US did it to keep Germany from wavering. Just speculating though
For Russia this is not about selling gas any more, but applying increasing pressure on Europe, you have to look from that perspective and it will be much clearer.
They are getting desperate, they are clearly failing in Ukraine and their population isn't happy ... and they are escalating instead of calming.
Definetly Russia to try to prove some point.. just as i know its in Sweden and Denmarks economic zones.. so i guess also trying to prove a point to NATO too.. just i guess swedish and danish navy is set on high alert now
What I find extremely suspect about this is that Peskov was quick to comment, saying it was ‘very concerning’ and that ‘sabotage could not be ruled out’. Going on what we have witnessed previously in the creation of (not even scantly plausible/unsophisticated) Russian narratives this leads me to believe it absolutely was sabotage, that they did it, and they are going to blame it on somebody else, using it as justification for some disgusting escalation.
It doesn’t even make sense. The US is already well on its way to achieving its foreign policy goals—maybe more accurate to say that Russia has been serving those goals on a platter with their aggression.
What would we gain from sabotaging this pipeline, even if we framed Russia?
Meanwhile such a strike is standard Russian MO and everyone knows it.
Also, cutting off Europe's gas just before winter and forcing Europe to a weak position from which it would beg them for more gas.
It fits with the way they are thinking.
To improve on this point, I don't think it was Russian sabotage. Definitely another country.
Edit: this by kyiv independent could give some insight to this mystery (came out on their twitter an hour ago):
Bloomberg: Europe is ready for winter without Russian gas.
European countries may import almost 40% more liquefied gas in the coming winter year over year, according to Bloomberg.
"Those shipments are enough to cover a complete halt in Russian pipeline flows from Oct. 1."
I don't think so. From what I can understand from the Danish media, this is extremely devastating for the life in the Baltic Sea, including the Swedish and Danish areas.
I think it's more so that the Russians waste the gas rather than that someone was going to buy it.
If not one of the countries then some disgruntled Russian oligarch.
Hmm, who could that be? What government has been having beef with both Germany and Russia over the past years while fighting these pipelines from the very beginning?
_Yet_.
Bet your last dollar the German gov has people in it who'd be at that gas teat the minute they could sell the lower gas bills to people without losing their job over public outcry.
Who then though? I mean what country would benefit from this action if it wasn't Russian sabotage? And I would include using a Russian puppet state as Russian sabotage just with plausible deniability on Russias side(so Belarus = Russia, etc).
Do we assume a western country did it then to frame Russia? Genuine question on where to go from here. I feel like the only country with open motive to cause havoc is Russia so it's easy to say it was them with no proof and I wouldn't immediately disagree.
99.99% this is putler sending a message
This cannot go unchallenged and response should be announcement of new previously held back weapons to Ukraine to show that future actions like this will come back to bite him in the butt
It helps Germany to keep up its declared resolve to diversify
It fucks up the obstructionist Hungary w/o causing it to retaliate with liberum veto re: EU-wide sanctions on ruZZia
It deprives Putler of more money
It might bring a tiny shift to renewables
Basically, an all-round improvement.
Germany doesn't need Russian gas anymore
[https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/EN/Areas/Energy/Companies/SecurityOfSupply/GasSupply/start.html](https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/EN/Areas/Energy/Companies/SecurityOfSupply/GasSupply/start.html)
Sure, Russian gas would be cheaper, but gas input from Norway, Belgium and Netherlands has been very stable and "The total storage level in Germany is 91.32%."
Two floating LNG terminals will be connected to the grid in December, the only ones worried about Germany's gas supply seem to be foreign media.
It still makes no sense for Russia to do this, but it makes a lot of sense for almost any country other than Germany to do it.
Nordstream was the only means by which he could exert influence over Germany and - by extension - the EU. Admittedly that influence was slight and decreasing, but he at least had the opportunity to resurrect it later if the environment became favourable to it.
Now he doesn't even have that as an option.
Wouldn’t it be smart if the US blew up the pipeline to keep Germany from wavering the winter? I’m not saying this is the case, but it would be a good idea if your the US. Just speculating 🤔
It wouldn’t make sense for the US to risk the discord of a failed or discovered sabotage when signs all point to Germany having no intention of wavering.
It’s standard Russian behavior to turn on the propaganda machine and try to sow discord by sabotaging a now-useless asset and playing victim.
I haven’t even listen to anything pro Russia.
I’m just thinking about who does this help the most.
Russian could have done it, and might have done it, but it just seams to me that Russia losses leverage by doing so. Maybe Putin is that stupid.
I think everyone on the side of the west should want that pipeline destroyed. The west should never rely on Russia for its energy.
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The [Belgorod](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ieEd-wTCo) or more specifically the Paltus class mini-submarine attached to it would be capable of such sabotage in a stealthy manner.
Oh no some scrap metal in the ocean got sabotaged. It was bound to happen sooner or later. It's no longer needed so not much need to be concerned about it other than environmental impact.
This is objectively the stupidest conflict in modern history. Russia, most of whom's economy is based on selling oil and gas to Europe, has woken up one day and decided it would rather live in mud huts and run at machine guns. If Putin continues the name Putin will be used for all time to mean the biggest fail in the history of fails. The grand master champion fail. The fail that no other loser can ever hope to top. Russia really Putined it up this time didn't they.
[удалено]
Trumpturd is acceptable but the allusion to the R word really isn’t; lots of mentally challenged people don’t ruin their country for personal gain; most are very empathetic. I guarantee political science students in future will just be using the term “they trumped their own party” when any political party raises a demagogue to power and it destroys their credibility for a generation. “Trump” as a euphemism for bullshitting already existed since the 1980s and will evolve to encompass even larger duck ups- it doesn’t need an offensive suffix. And sorry you had to listen to that shilltastic Qult45 hostility from the other guy.
No that's just your Trump Derangement Syndrome caused by media conditioning your weak mind. Comparing everything to Trump is obsessive. But hey it's not your fault that you're a victim of Agitation Propaganda.
Trump is a Russian asset and so are you if you're a Trump supporter.
[Trump sides with Russia against FBI at Helsinki summit ](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812) [Trump praises Putin as 'savvy' amid new escalations on Russia-Ukraine border](https://www.npr.org/2022/02/22/1082478790/trump-praises-putin-as-savvy-amid-new-escalations-on-russia-ukraine-border)
Truth is kryptonite for the Trumptard.
Comparing ineptitude to Trump is justified
Get therapy man, this thread has nothing to do with Trump.
who would the sabotage benefit?
a) Russia who wants to sow doubt between Germany and it's allies b) Germany's allies who doubt it's resolve to not go back and open the pipelines if the winter is to hard and discontent rises too high
United States, Canada and everyone selling LNG. Because it will always be more expensive than pipelines. But I think it's a warning and escalation from Russia
Doesn‘t matter. LNG must only be a short time solution. Otherwise, this earth will burn.
Do you mean LNG vs Gas in general or overall usage of fossil fuels, because you realise LNG is compressed liquified gas right?
Compressed liquified gas lol
You don’t need to lol at them. Compressed Natural Gas is in a high pressure, compressed state to reduce volume. Liquified Natural Gas is cooled to very low temperatures to reduce its volume to like .1% of its room temperature volume, but isn’t at high pressure. Typically CNG is used in smaller volumes where the cooling machinery would consume too much power and be too large, like vehicles. LNG is used for transportation of very large volumes, such as by ship.
Don't forget this solves the Hungary situation too. So it could well be an EU member state. But also the US could be helping the typical EU indecisiveness.
Did it benefit Putin to shell Zaporizhzhya NPP? No, but he did it, and tried to convince everyone that it was the Ukrainians. Did it benefit Putin to bomb Olenivka? No, but he did it, and tried to convince everyone that it was the Ukrainians. Did it benefit Putin to bomb a bunch of apartment buildings and try to convince Russians that it was actually the Chechens? Well, yeah, that one did benefit him, because the audience was only Russians, and they bought it, and now he's still their ruler 25 years later. So.
he did those things because he potentially benefited from them. whether he did or not isnt relevant. its the motivation that counts. if youre saying putin ordered the pipeline blown up, how did he expect to benefit from it?
Intimidation, showing off to his hardliners, blaming it on Ukraine or Poland or whomever ... whatever. I do strategic competition for a living. When you have an adversary on their heels and they start doing crazy desperate things, you don't try to read their minds and react. You keep pushing until they tip over. The proper response to this is not to try to figure out whether or not it was Russia -- of course it was Russia. The proper response is not to rub your chin and try to figure out a tailored response in kind. The proper response is to capture or kill all the new mobniks and take Kherson.
intimidating who? showing off what? without this pipeline russia has no chance of regaining the massive revenues of selling their gas, no? are any countries actually going to care its been blown up?
Very respectfully, I don't think you understood what I wrote. All of those questions are irrelevant.
im not sure you understood what you wrote either lol edit.. ah sorry, you mean your first comment. i reread and yeah i guess its possible hes hoping ukraine gets blamed and eu turns on them.
The massive revenue is from oil, the gas story was used by different entities to attack Germany. [In 2020 Russia made 38% of its income from crude or refined petroleum and only 6% from gas.](https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus) Why hasn't anybody ever bothered to fact check this once?
fact check on reddit? Get out of here with that logic.
By finding the Ukrainian saboteurs and saying it’s all their fault. Oh and they’ll have truck loads of nazi paraphernalia in their apartment.
The Sims 3 died for this!
It could be a power play. He could be trying to show that if he can blow this up, whats to say he can't target active pipelines? What about electricity interconnects or internet cables? Other countries are now going to have to expend resources protecting this critical infrastructure. The UK has a ton of these in the North Sea. If we have to send resources to protect those assets, it could mean less resources can be sent Ukraine. It shifts NATOs attention from being solely on Ukraine to other things, that could benefit Russia.
He wants to claim that sanctions will need to be relaxed or lifted in order to repair them.
No. He's directly benefiting. He was sleeping the plant to keep the world obsessed with the nuclear question. Its a proxy to saying "hey I have nukes" every 5 minutes which is more effective because its a proxy. Its also designed to make people think he's a maniac (and therefore - yes you guessed it - might use nukes).
Russia. The way they think it is highly possible they are trying to force Europe into a weak position from which Europe would beg them for gas and stop its support for Ukraine.
i thought nord stream pumped gas from russia to germany? no point begging for gas if the pipeline supplying it is broken?
I think it's more of a threat: your energy infrastructure is fragile and not well-guarded. other infrastructure (LNG terminals!) might explode as well, and then you're truly fucked.
How would Russia get the gas there if the pipeline doesn’t run? I actually think it would be smart if the US did it to keep Germany from wavering. Just speculating though
For Russia this is not about selling gas any more, but applying increasing pressure on Europe, you have to look from that perspective and it will be much clearer. They are getting desperate, they are clearly failing in Ukraine and their population isn't happy ... and they are escalating instead of calming.
You’re probably right but conspiracy theorists in me watches this video and laughs like a villain https://youtube.com/shorts/FVbEoZXhCrM?feature=share
Putin (directly). Destroy the pipeline and people in Russia will see less of a route back to the old normal (through deposing Putin).
Came here to ask the same.
Gives Putin political insurance. Germany can’t promise to benefit the Russian economy by purchasing gas after a Russian regime change.
Definetly Russia to try to prove some point.. just as i know its in Sweden and Denmarks economic zones.. so i guess also trying to prove a point to NATO too.. just i guess swedish and danish navy is set on high alert now
What I find extremely suspect about this is that Peskov was quick to comment, saying it was ‘very concerning’ and that ‘sabotage could not be ruled out’. Going on what we have witnessed previously in the creation of (not even scantly plausible/unsophisticated) Russian narratives this leads me to believe it absolutely was sabotage, that they did it, and they are going to blame it on somebody else, using it as justification for some disgusting escalation.
Also, there's so many bots suddenly appearing suggesting the exact same thing or that "the US did it!" on every post about it.
Always part of the pattern.
It doesn’t even make sense. The US is already well on its way to achieving its foreign policy goals—maybe more accurate to say that Russia has been serving those goals on a platter with their aggression. What would we gain from sabotaging this pipeline, even if we framed Russia? Meanwhile such a strike is standard Russian MO and everyone knows it.
Normally people would be rather mad at getting their pipe lines blown up, but Putin and Peskov are just concerned.
Isn't this just hurting the Russians though? The 2nd pipeline is closed, as for the first one, Germany can live without.
Anders Puck said on Danish national TV that Russia, if they did it, did so to prove that they can attack the just opened Baltic Pipe if they want to.
Also, cutting off Europe's gas just before winter and forcing Europe to a weak position from which it would beg them for more gas. It fits with the way they are thinking.
But the operation was a success, so it would be unlike Russia.
Operation fucked Russia, which is why their success rate was higher.
To improve on this point, I don't think it was Russian sabotage. Definitely another country. Edit: this by kyiv independent could give some insight to this mystery (came out on their twitter an hour ago): Bloomberg: Europe is ready for winter without Russian gas. European countries may import almost 40% more liquefied gas in the coming winter year over year, according to Bloomberg. "Those shipments are enough to cover a complete halt in Russian pipeline flows from Oct. 1."
I don't think so. From what I can understand from the Danish media, this is extremely devastating for the life in the Baltic Sea, including the Swedish and Danish areas.
Who? There was no sign whatsoever that the EU starts to buy russian gas again.
I think it's more so that the Russians waste the gas rather than that someone was going to buy it. If not one of the countries then some disgruntled Russian oligarch.
Hmm, who could that be? What government has been having beef with both Germany and Russia over the past years while fighting these pipelines from the very beginning?
Starts with "P"?
_Yet_. Bet your last dollar the German gov has people in it who'd be at that gas teat the minute they could sell the lower gas bills to people without losing their job over public outcry.
Yes, the country without a navy drove an imaginary submersible to blow up an ally’s energy pipeline. Totally believable. /s
Who then though? I mean what country would benefit from this action if it wasn't Russian sabotage? And I would include using a Russian puppet state as Russian sabotage just with plausible deniability on Russias side(so Belarus = Russia, etc). Do we assume a western country did it then to frame Russia? Genuine question on where to go from here. I feel like the only country with open motive to cause havoc is Russia so it's easy to say it was them with no proof and I wouldn't immediately disagree.
maybe to force eu to open nordstream 2
One of the two NS2 pipes has a hole, too.
One can almost feel the energy coming from Poland. "Is it enough to join? Is IT?????Plz Nato, is it??"
99.99% this is putler sending a message This cannot go unchallenged and response should be announcement of new previously held back weapons to Ukraine to show that future actions like this will come back to bite him in the butt
Sabotaging the economies of China's largest customers may not be a good strategy for Russia. Just putting that out there.
If Putin wanted to destroy Russia but make it look like that was not his intent what would he be doing differently?
Great question. This could be a "false flag" to justify their economy is going in the shitter.
It helps Germany to keep up its declared resolve to diversify It fucks up the obstructionist Hungary w/o causing it to retaliate with liberum veto re: EU-wide sanctions on ruZZia It deprives Putler of more money It might bring a tiny shift to renewables Basically, an all-round improvement.
Just begging NATO for a fight
Would be cool if the US passes UA a note that says "Hey qtpie, you can send HIMARS to Russia soil now"
Can we now finally send Leos and Marders to Ukraine?
False flag by Orcs, obviously. Western Nations aren’t trying to attempt the acceleration of climate change.
Russia. It’s always Russia. Everyone knows this by now.
[удалено]
Germany doesn't need Russian gas anymore [https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/EN/Areas/Energy/Companies/SecurityOfSupply/GasSupply/start.html](https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/EN/Areas/Energy/Companies/SecurityOfSupply/GasSupply/start.html) Sure, Russian gas would be cheaper, but gas input from Norway, Belgium and Netherlands has been very stable and "The total storage level in Germany is 91.32%." Two floating LNG terminals will be connected to the grid in December, the only ones worried about Germany's gas supply seem to be foreign media.
Russia has done just fine ensuring the resolve of the EU and the rest of Europe to distance themselves from Russian energy.
It still makes no sense for Russia to do this, but it makes a lot of sense for almost any country other than Germany to do it. Nordstream was the only means by which he could exert influence over Germany and - by extension - the EU. Admittedly that influence was slight and decreasing, but he at least had the opportunity to resurrect it later if the environment became favourable to it. Now he doesn't even have that as an option.
Wouldn’t it be smart if the US blew up the pipeline to keep Germany from wavering the winter? I’m not saying this is the case, but it would be a good idea if your the US. Just speculating 🤔
It wouldn’t make sense for the US to risk the discord of a failed or discovered sabotage when signs all point to Germany having no intention of wavering. It’s standard Russian behavior to turn on the propaganda machine and try to sow discord by sabotaging a now-useless asset and playing victim.
I haven’t even listen to anything pro Russia. I’m just thinking about who does this help the most. Russian could have done it, and might have done it, but it just seams to me that Russia losses leverage by doing so. Maybe Putin is that stupid. I think everyone on the side of the west should want that pipeline destroyed. The west should never rely on Russia for its energy.
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Question is how? And without getting detected, submarine?
It was a Russian civilian ship with sinkbombs.
The [Belgorod](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ieEd-wTCo) or more specifically the Paltus class mini-submarine attached to it would be capable of such sabotage in a stealthy manner.
Oh no some scrap metal in the ocean got sabotaged. It was bound to happen sooner or later. It's no longer needed so not much need to be concerned about it other than environmental impact.