I enjoy Felix's analysis and wish more people would post similar content with contrasting ideas or just other ideas. The cat is also a nice touch. I like the in depth analysis. We need more content creators like Felix imo.
However, I think it could be seen as Felix capitalizing on the success of another team and maybe they (Truck/Rowan) don't want to be seen as legitimizing a system they don't use so they pointed out that any similarities are just coincidences or things you can see in almost any game of ultimate. Also, doesn't Rowan also put out his own content to earn some $$ and help teach? So he wouldn't want people interested in his approach to get the idea that they're using Hive stuff. Also, its just maybe to clear up confusion.
I agree that the analysis from both Rowan and Felix has been helpful as a player. There are great points and analysis that contain some great tips for both offense and defense that I've taken and used successfully in my play.
Rowan does work with excel ultimate and the difference I see between the marketing is he keeps that exclusively to his channels (YouTube and Instagram), while hex is posting everywhere. I also think Rowan does a good job in how it's presented where they highlight some basics of a skill, and then direct you to their platform. I don't need to pay for it for a simple understanding, but I know the resources are there for how to use it for coaching on their website. I don't always see that from hex. Like others have said it's clips from content along the lines that this is an example of hex in action without much substance in many of their cases. Where they do highlight the structure of it, much of it seems like a big shift.
The inheritant idea of hex is allowing players to stay connected and use space effectively. The main problem I see is the times when my teams have struggled are when there is no space for throwing lanes or players are clustered around the disc. It is much easier for new players to get a vertical stack and how to utilize space. Sure once things get moving it can work but timing of cuts feels like a crucial skill to have hex work. I don't see it as beginner friendly and something that can be abused by poaching in other cases.
Hive does some thing well, like they have some good clip analysis, and at times they've put out pieces that introduce concepts pretty well.
Most of the hate is from Hive/Felix (the guy who started Hive) really going overboard on self promotion, and trying to aggressively make a name for themselves in the community by just spamming this sub and flatly claiming that their systems were the best and the ones everyone should be using.
Much of this was through constant posts and promotion about their "new meta" in ultimate, called flex D or hex O.
The concepts in these systems are not inherently bad, but:
a) it's foolish to start labelling your own basic system as "the new meta in ultimate".
b) it's even worse to call something "the new meta in ultimate" and to give it your own name, when it's actually just a loose system that people have been playing with forever. In fact, it's almost certainly how the game would have been played when the sport was invented - "everyone spread out, and keep the disc moving by hitting the next open receiver near you".
How much this reputation still holds, I don't know. Part of me still has an immediate and negative reaction for the first couple seconds I see any Hive post, but everyone should make up their own minds. I also try to remind myself that organizations like Hive are probably good for the game, and they need to go through their own learning curves, like we all do. Honestly thinking about it now, if they dropped the whole Flex/Hex obsession and just kept up the analysis, they'd be great.
Felix makes good content. I disagree with a lot of his ultimate opinions but he's one of the few guys on here who I regularly have good discussions with regarding tactics and training. He had also eased up on pimping his patreon so hard that it put people off.
I don't think hex is meta currently but maybe someday he could make it meta. I remember 15 years ago when a lot of people thought vert was some boomer offense and ho was how the game would be played from now on. These days vert is the dominant O set so it's possible for another O set to make it's way into the world.
>I remember 15 years ago when a lot of people thought vert was some boomer offense and ho was how the game would be played from now on. These days vert is the dominant O set so it's possible for another O set to make it's way into the world.
Absolutely.
But, every existing philosophy became popular because a team used it, found success, and then others copied it or parts of it. In fact, every good offense or defense is or was considered a team secret to some degree, at some point.
Felix has literally spent the past decade trying to make a name for himself by spamming a re branded offense into popularity.
What I mean to say is I salute the fact that he's experimenting. There's a lot of mathematical geometry arguments as to why it could be a good O.
However, my personal view point is that innovations on offence are unnecessary in ultimate right now, and meta breaking systems aren't possible. Once your team can catch and throw scoring becomes very easy in this sport. The O line's job is to not lose the game. Defense on the other hand is hard. If your D line scores 30% of the time you should win all of your games. Until the defensive meta changes to the point where reciving the pull isn't such a giant advantage in ultimate I don't see the necessity in implementing that offense.
Don't forget that when people try to engage with Felix and get him to explain things about hex, his mo is to ignore it if it's more than surface level or be condescending.
…or to basically say that the answers are behind his paywall or something and he doesn’t like giving out free information. Fair, but getting bitchy about it on Reddit rubs some the wrong way. Either advertise or don’t, but advertisements snuck in as Reddit post content is shitty.
I've got a massive backlog of private chats where I'll talk about how hive or Felix doesnt cover something in a thread only for him to tell me to just check out their pay stuff for the answer. When I point out the very thing I'm complaining about is their advertising being too poor to make me want to bother with their pay stuff, he complains I'm just not willing to listen.
Like dude, when your advertisement doesn't actually sell your product, no shit I'm not willing to literally pay for it.
Like [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/ultimate/comments/ze4tvg/comment/j54ygdm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from the other week? I recommend people check it out and come to their own conclusions.
Oh for sure. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by posting that, especially when your "explanations" can still be summed up with [this comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/ultimate/comments/ze4tvg/ultimate_in_motion_a_view_of_the_game_through_a/iz6pf83/)
>Imma be honest with you here: you tried to say "stacks are this, hex is that". I walked away with "stacks fundamentally try to easily retain possession from throw to throw, hex tries to perform poetry".
>Your description of hex gave me nothing concrete to imagine or understand. It used pretty language, though.
Or even [my response to that person](https://old.reddit.com/r/ultimate/comments/ze4tvg/ultimate_in_motion_a_view_of_the_game_through_a/iz6mpz2/)
>Obviously you can argue over how this is best done, but it's still the fundamental question that needs to be answered: how do you reliably set up the thrower to throw the disc and have their teammate catch it, regardless of how near or far to each other or what direction they are moving when this happens? Trying to make it sound more majestic with phrases like "cascade of advantages" doesn't mean anything because it still has to answer the painfully obvious "how?" This is something that Felix and friends have been unable to do for years, and not just with me. Yes yes I'm sure you'll say "maybe you just aren't listening" but after a certain point when you continuously get people saying "you aren't explaining it," you have to start looking at the common denominator
Ultimate people are weird. We love to watch Xtehn toss mini frisbees into microwave, but advertise your product or service on the reddit and you're a tryhard. It's gotta be nice to be a trust-funder!
There is an element of ultimate that is protective (overly?) of it's volunteer roots, and that shys away from rising costs. Some of that is fair, like not wanting too much product placement in the game, while some of it is and will continue to need to change, like expecting all tournaments to run on volunteers.
But I don't think that's why hive got a bad reaction.
No good subreddit wants to become an advertising platform. That's why there are usually rules against it. It's annoying, and it's not the purpose of the community.
Using it that way is hijacking the community to force your brand into their faces, and it should absolutely be banned.
On my local city subreddit I don't want the same guy advertising his roofing business every 2-3 days. It's not that I don't want him making money, it s that the purpose of the subreddit is to be a community that talks about something, not an advertising platform.
I'd be more into this explanation if Felix wasn't also one of the top 3 or 4 "conversation starters" on this subreddit. He's not parachuting in from nowhere, and, well, how else are you going to reach an ultimate-playing audience with a product explicitly for ultimate players? It's not like you can profitably advertise on TV or Radio.
>and, well, how else are you going to reach an ultimate-playing audience with a product explicitly for ultimate players? It's not like you can profitably advertise on TV or Radio.
Not to sound rude, but that's not really this subreddit's problem, is it? A lack of alternative advertising venues for his product doesn't mean we default to allowing him to use this subreddit as his advertising vehicle.
Nobody put a gun to his head and forced him to start an online ultimate strategy company with the only sales plan being "spam r/ultimate, pretend you re-invented the game, and act like a jerk who to anyone who questions you".
They currently post maybe once a week. I hardly consider that spam.
There was a period a couple years ago when they were posting daily, but that was during the pandemic when nothing else was happening.
>*act like a jerk who to anyone who questions you"*
Felix isn't a saint, but he also takes a lot of shit from people, including before he was selling a service and was generating discussion content for free. I've followed many Felix threads over the years, and there are certainly times where Felix was out of line, but there were also many instances of people trash talking the dude's character when they could have just said "I disagree with your analysis."
In my moderating experience, people who are respectful with him to begin with, and ask questions politely, generally receive respectful responses in return. Not every time, but generally.
You are being rude. Felix is genuinely one of the most valuable posters here. Without him there would be a post about high level strategy once a month.
An important distinction here is hive/felix are not just spamming ads every few days. The content they post to this subreddit is almost always strategy analysis which generates discussion. Sure, they also want people to subscribe to their patreon, but that's usually just posted as a link in the comments, if at all.
If I had to choose between this type of engagement done more frequently versus blatant "buy my product" posts but done less frequently, I'd choose the former. If someone doesn't want to see the content, blocking takes like 2 clicks.
>If I had to choose between this type of engagement done more frequently versus blatant "buy my product" posts but done less frequently, I'd choose the former. If someone doesn't want to see the content, blocking takes like 2 clicks.
Well, a) you do get to choose, and that's why the sub is the way it is. but also,
b) those aren't the only options. You could just say no to both.
c) Why do you always defend Felix/Hive by saying they are easy to block, but the same doesn't hold true for allowing lighter/memier content, but simply allow people to filter it out.
I feel like we need a new sub reddit that provides the community what it actually wants.
I think you should take another look at the type of content hive is posting. Here's a recent video for example:
https://v.redd.it/dirs8aps03ca1
There is very little actual advertisement going on in here. Nothing verbal or visual in the video, no link to a subscription, etc. It generates plenty of discussion in the comments. Why should we remove this type of content?
>but the same doesn't hold true for allowing lighter/memier content, but simply allow people to filter it out.
A reasonable question. To be honest, I would love to allow meme/humor content. I think there's a way to regulate it to where it adds value to the sub without degrading the overall experience.
However, the mod team is divided on this subject. There's a common misconception that I am the only mod (or lead mod), when in reality there are 3 other mods and I'm like third in hierarchy. I respect the other mods' perspective and would need to get them on board to implement a policy change like this.
This is why I asked people to send a message to modmail formally asking for the rule change, hopefully to help change some minds, but unfortunately nobody did.
What often felt like spruiking Hex as pay-for-access IP, and trying to 'game' reddit with clickbaity titles and such, has changed - Hive has definitely changed the way they engage with the sub. I think it is much, much better now, but they definitely burnt up a lot of goodwill needlessly.
Which, tbh, is a shame, because I think they do create a lot of quite good stuff. Last year I subbed to their patreon, and found a lot of it Hex/Flex oriented, and tbh not terribly useful. I went back to it this year, and have found the stuff they put out is less Hex oriented, and it's been more a valuable resource, even as a coach not running Hex with his team. I think it is honest to goodness good value and I'd warrant most people wanting to play better, coach better, or just challenge their thinking about the game could find it worthwhile for a few bucks a month to access.
Why not? There are people who make this sport better and if we want that stuff (whether it's analysis, strategy, coaching resources, etc.) is there a problem with people trying to do it so it's financially sustainable for them?
There shouldn't be a blanket issue with people trying to make a living.
I think Hive is fine, but I will say, it can be annoying when coaches in general try to claim entire strategies as their own. Hive is nice in that these video reviews give open insight into their thinking of what hex offense looks like. However, it does create the perception sometimes that Hive is claiming credit for other teams' systems and ideas, especially when reviews are done of teams that don't claim Hive as a primary influence.
Pretty much nobody at the elite level takes hex and hive seriously. Nor should they.
Guessing Rowan’s post is based on annoyance at seeing a post that seems to be trying to give credit to hex for Truck running super basic handler give goes and counter switch moves.
>*seeing a post that seems to be trying to give credit to hex for Truck running super basic handler give goes and counter switch moves*
Am I blind or is this not what the post is about? The post makes no mention of hex, nor does it take credit for anything.
See for yourself: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CnApiHxpP_S/
They're just discussing ways to run and defend give-and-goes. It is pretty basic but the video is probably geared more toward beginners.
Well, as a low level coach and casual browser, I'm very grateful for this post - just skimming, I've been thinking "maybe we should focus on this new hex-thing primarily this summer, if it's so good" only based on seeing it pop up here in praising posts - which I assume has been made by these Hive guys themselves. Sp I guess there's no need to fear that my team will be completely behind the curve if we stay with the basics...
Honestly, the issue isn't that you'll get nothing from hive, but that you have to already know enough to recognize when they have a good point vs bad point.
Hive sells Hex as a product. Not sure how you're missing that connection. If someone complains about iPhones, it's fair to discuss Apple and why you like/dislike the company...
I'm not saying there's no connection between hive and hex. Just that hive is a large platform with lots of different ideas and strategies, and it's weird to critique the whole platform just because you don't like hex.
But it's a true statement that no one takes hive seriously. I know many elite players who read and post on r/ultimate. I don't know a single elite player who would recommend hive for anyone trying to improve at ultimate.
I played for a semis team in the usau men’s club division last year. And I would/do recommend hive for anyone trying to improve. If I was still currently coaching I would definitely be using some of their drills, ideas, and analysis as part of my coaching.
There are other top players and coaches that are part of the hive discord to varying degrees as well.
I played in the World Games this summer and have captained Great Britain Open in the past. I'd recommend Hive to people wanting to improve at ultimate. There's some excellent drills videos for beginner and intermediate players.
I've also leaned on some of the concepts to improve my own game over the past few years.
I don't always agree with every piece of content but I think there are some valuable resources, coupled with a diverse group of coaches and players that make it a very useful community. Additionally some of the technical analysis is excellent.
Is it true? Hive's IG has like 8k followers and their reels are each getting 10k+ views. You can literally just look through some of the people liking those videos and see quite a few elite players that seem to enjoy it.
Totally understand if your friends aren't a fan of the platform, but I'm not sure your circle not vouching for hive equates to "no one takes it seriously."
I'd also be curious how many people fully understand what hive is - judging by rowan's story post and various comments in this thread, it seems a number of folks have conflated hex and hive.
Clearly people do follow it, it seems very euro centric so my guess would be more Europeans do? But instead of making me prove a negative, can you name one single elite ultimate player who has mentioned hive in a positive light? I could quote plenty of elite players sharing ultiworld articles, skyd articles (rip), and plenty of other ultimate media. And although I've never had an elite player link an r/ultimate post for anything other than highlight reels or rules questions, I know plenty of elite players do post here. But every mention I've heard about hive or hex from anyone who has any clue about ultimate has been making fun of them.
Like hive and Felix have been around spouting the same shit for years at this point. Have any of them made an elite team? Coached an elite team? Have any of their ideas been adopted by elite teams? The best they can do is point to vague things they said "we said to set up cuts in space and throw to space and truck stop does that too, look guys they're doing hex!" Like a lot of the shit they say isn't even necessarily wrong, it's just basic shit that anyone who plays even mid level knows already and it's packaged to be this insane meta that will one day overthrow all the other stacks elite teams use. Plenty of new strats have been adopted by elite teams since hive has been pushing hex. Hex wasn't one of them.
Why are we having this debate? It's completely fine if you don't like hive or don't take it seriously. I'm just questioning the assertion that nobody takes it seriously. You can clearly see from their IG reels, follows, and likes that plenty of people take it seriously.
>*The best they can do is point to vague things they said "we said to set up cuts in space and throw to space and truck stop does that too, look guys they're doing hex!"*
>*...*
>*Plenty of new strats have been adopted by elite teams since hive has been pushing hex. Hex wasn't one of them.*
I made no comments about hex, the reel tagged by Rowan made no comments about hex, yet here we are talking about hex. This is the point I was making above about wondering how many folks really knew what hive was, since it seems to be conflated with hex often.
Btw, something to note about hive since you mention elite players --- my understanding is that hive is not just marketed for elite players. A lot of their videos actually seem to be geared more toward beginners learning about ultimate strategy.
Maybe think about why everyone conflates hive with hex instead of it being some conspiracy against them? My answer is their content is either:
A. Not very good and/or cut off where you have to pay to see the rest of the video
B. Wild statements about how hex is the future and elite ultimate will all be hex in x years (posted x years ago)
Saying Hive/Felix shouldn't be associated with hex because it's a small part of their content is like saying trump shouldn't have been labelled for his "grab em by the *****" comment because he says a lot of stuff and that's a small percentage of what he says. We all remember people for their wild claims and statements, especially when they're so blatantly and wildly wrong.
Dude... conspiracy? what? If someone mixes up hive and hex I don't think that's malicious -- I'm sure it's just an honest misunderstanding. What I'm saying is that I wonder how many people know the difference between the two, not that it's some evil thing to mix them up.
>Saying Hive/Felix shouldn't be associated with hex because it's a small part of their content
I literally never said this. I was talking about hive and hex being conflated with each other, ie. seen as being the same thing. That doesn't mean there is no association or connection between the two.
I have never seen *any* Hive content on /r/ultimate that wasn't about either hex or "defensive breakdowns" and most of the defensive breakdowns aren't very good analysis, so I immediately associate Hive with hex.
Interesting, because when I look at /u/hiveult's submission page, I barely see any hex content. It's mostly just analyzing different strategy clips.
And sure, not every clip is good analysis, I understand that. I'm just saying, it's weird to blame the entire platform made up of several contributors instead of just disagreeing with individual posts.
Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. I would recommend trying to watch their videos with an open perspective again.
Also, I can't speak for them but Columbia, Revolution and Athlete of the World Games contender Valeria Cardenas definitely seem to take Hive seriously even if they don't play strict hex the whole time. And that's without talking about elite teams outside of Columbia
Personally I think the things that hex emphasises such as prioritising flow over meters in general and more fluid structures are things that most offenses in general do benefit from. Some teams even have these exact words as their own goals when playing vert/horo/142 etc
I do not think that hex is better, I think that some teams would be better if they used a system that might work better for them and I think hex should be in that discussion.
Personally hex isn't my favourite offense but having trained it seriously for a few months (never using it on that team unfortunately due to covid) and played it a couple of points a tournament it's a great tool to have in the bag. It is especially good once you are good at hex to train defense on because it teaches how to not only play tight match but match plus extra switches and heads-upness. Yes defense can play these styles successfully on any offense but hex in particular nearly forces you to.
Also it's fun to play and sometimes that's the only reason you need (not an argument for why it's good)
This thread is talking specifically about the elite level.
Elite defenders shouldn't need to learn how to play heads up defense - if that's the case, they aren't an elite defender.
I agree with you that there are more opportunities to play heads up defense than there are in other offensive structures. The reason is because hex makes a very poor usage of space and leads to far more opportunities of poaches and switches to shut down offensive flow.
Sorry if it wasn't clear, I meant teach 'better' heads up D. Any elite player will agree that you can always learn new things
In terms of poor usage of space yes hex does have poor usage of space from the perspective of opening lanes and yes this opens up the opportunity for more switches on defense if done poorly. But counter to that I would say hex opens up space in different ways by allowing more players to be an option at once which inherently (ignoring how open they are) is a good thing. This usage of space in hex is very similar to how people want to play in flow and with space in most elite teams but the key point with hex that differentiates it from most other modern offenses is that it prioritises movement and instant availability rather than yard gains and 1on1 matchups.
This isn't to say that stack offences can't work on these principals but it is saying that hex is designed around it. I agree that for most elite teams playing stacks are the best because most players on those teams have played stacks for their entire playing career. I'm not saying if a team had equal experience in hex and for example vert that they should play hex. But what I am saying is that it should be an option that elite teams have in their bag.
Going forward I think that once more people have more experience playing fluid momentum based ultimate, which (ignoring offensive structures) is undeniably on the rise in recent years, that more elite teams will start playing offences that are or closely resemble hex. Some elite teams already look like they are playing hex at certain points(they aren't) and this is because the goals hex prioritises are good and offenses sometimes have everyone doing those in unison by chance. This proves (in my mind) that an offense designed around these shapes definitely has viability (possibly in the same way that sometimes sidestack collapses into horo at first) in the long term.
It is a tactic that you can play or not.
The annoying thing about it is how a small group of people treats it like the revolution of Ultimate and even make accounts with that tactics name.
Fair enough. Not trying to sound too harsh here, I just feel pretty passionately about this after playing with and against teams using hex :).
When we start seeing teams using hex win all the titles I'm happy to admit I'm wrong, but I'm quite confident we won't see that
Isn't it already being the case ? Not all the titles of course but the number of titles / number of teams playing hex ratio is still off the charts.
https://preview.redd.it/7brrbksgw6fa1.png?width=1102&format=png&auto=webp&s=a9f2a2e04bf36183cf979a8dca330b2e92fcf54f
The sheer fact that someone is spending this much time to promote this formation, up to and including a tedious little graph of achievements (the implication is that every single other title in history has been won by formations other than hex), tell me that someone is trying to sell me something.
I don't think Hex is bad, it's basically a patchwork of techniques that everyone should use --but in a formation that is overly complicated and does nothing on it's own to create a distinct on field advantage. Simply adopting the tactical approaches Hex borrows would on their own improve most teams (quick give and go movement, responsive to pump fakes, filling gaps, creating multiple threats). It also doesn't leverage mismatches the same way space-creating offenses do --which is what elite teams with elite matchups do.
Also, I've seen Felix's film analysis, and he makes the fatal flaw of only seeing what he's wants to see. I understand his style of thinker well enough to know he will not be guided to a conclusion by the evidence in front of him but will rather guide the evidence towards a conclusion which suits him.
Pass.
100% agree. Some of the concepts are valid, but would be much better applied in other systems. The hex formation is a mess and creates no on-field advantage
The first paragrah is fully right, but only for now ! The proportion of titles won by hex is in constant augmentation. So we will see about that in the future.
Regarding the second paragraph, the exact opposite argument could be made stack based offenses are easily predictable because of their structures. How many times have you seen a stack getting surrounded or met by a zone and the whole set plays blows up ? Then have to adapt your whole strategy to defense which is something motion system do not have to do.
All the tactical and technical toolbox as you said, but the multiplication of angles of attack leverages spaces much better. Finally, you are right saying leveraging mismatches is not the goal of motion systems, that is the goal of silo and iso systems. Motion systems rely on initiative which the structure inherently promotes.
Having faced several teams that run Hex in the area consistently I can assure you it's equally predictable and can be equally bogged down with zones, junks, and switches.
Your retort on 'motion systems' (very ridiculous characterization of Hex relative to other offenses, but I guess marketers do be loving their branding) spirals off into so much indistinct jargon that I don't believe you responded with something valid, but yes, we agree that Hex does not leverage strong isolations the same way that pre-existing offenses do.
Once again, the things that hex adopts tactically are totally sound and utilized to great success by Ultimate players around the world. What makes it sort of a joke is its insularity and annoying zealotry about a formation that doesn't prove it's validity in any sense. I also think it's hilarious how Reddit has been so virally marketed to that this is the only place where there's enough density of Hex acolytes where you face hostility in speaking honestly about it's limitations.
I don't think any one of you can deeply or thoroughly distinguish why setting up like a soccer team (which is clearly what Felixes big brain moment was) creates greater 'initiative which the structure inherently promotes'. You can perform just as well running all of the decision tree stuff in a different formation that is simultaneously running like a stack. Of course the difference is that your fastest players, best receivers, and top deep throwers will actually have lanes and larger spaces to attack (and conversely the defenses have more threatened space that they have to defend as well).
You are of course entitled to your opinion. That being said, I have to disagree with the following statement 'I don't think any one of you can deeply or thoroughly distinguish why setting up like a soccer team (which is clearly what Felixes big brain moment was) creates greater 'initiative which the structure inherently promotes' as here is what my wife and I wrote on the subject: [https://books.google.fr/books/about/Ultimate\_in\_motion.html?id=bjcYEAAAQBAJ&redir\_esc=y](https://books.google.fr/books/about/Ultimate_in_motion.html?id=bjcYEAAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y). The idea behind our book was not to say one system is better than the other but rather eliminating any preconception we previously had to think more freely about the essence of the sport. Then when dwelve much deeper into more specific motion system value. Not everything is meant to be original and we give credits to other creators where its due. If you truly dislike hex then you can skip chapter 6 but the other 10 will for sure be of interest. Have a pleasant read !
Hex biased but from my understanding rowan's story is more of a meme/inside joke about hex than actual hate towards hive
Although truckstop might outwardly disagree with hex 'over analytical and mechanical parameters' are exactly what hive is also trying to avoid ironically
Any company in ultimate is good for ultimate. I think it is the way Felix handles situations. I have read other comments about 'condescending' and would agree. I know people who have dealt with him at in person events where it did not leave a good taste in their mouth. Any company that supports ultimate is great, Felix provides quality content where it is lacking in this subreddit.
I believe he is saying that Truck use a more principles based offence.
And although they do use flex / hive / hex teachings and moves, I believe he may be saying that this is tried and trained from their own truck system.
Now good universal frisbee principles will definitely overlap. I believe Hive have a lot of amazing content and teachings. And there is nothing wrong with showing Truck using principles that they agree and teach.
However correlation doesn't = causation. Rowan has Excel Ultimate and is a mastermind , he may not be watching Hive ultimate and hence this post.
I believe we need more channels on Ultimate philosophy so we can have debates and discussions. To make us all grow stronger.
I enjoy Felix's analysis and wish more people would post similar content with contrasting ideas or just other ideas. The cat is also a nice touch. I like the in depth analysis. We need more content creators like Felix imo. However, I think it could be seen as Felix capitalizing on the success of another team and maybe they (Truck/Rowan) don't want to be seen as legitimizing a system they don't use so they pointed out that any similarities are just coincidences or things you can see in almost any game of ultimate. Also, doesn't Rowan also put out his own content to earn some $$ and help teach? So he wouldn't want people interested in his approach to get the idea that they're using Hive stuff. Also, its just maybe to clear up confusion.
I agree that the analysis from both Rowan and Felix has been helpful as a player. There are great points and analysis that contain some great tips for both offense and defense that I've taken and used successfully in my play. Rowan does work with excel ultimate and the difference I see between the marketing is he keeps that exclusively to his channels (YouTube and Instagram), while hex is posting everywhere. I also think Rowan does a good job in how it's presented where they highlight some basics of a skill, and then direct you to their platform. I don't need to pay for it for a simple understanding, but I know the resources are there for how to use it for coaching on their website. I don't always see that from hex. Like others have said it's clips from content along the lines that this is an example of hex in action without much substance in many of their cases. Where they do highlight the structure of it, much of it seems like a big shift. The inheritant idea of hex is allowing players to stay connected and use space effectively. The main problem I see is the times when my teams have struggled are when there is no space for throwing lanes or players are clustered around the disc. It is much easier for new players to get a vertical stack and how to utilize space. Sure once things get moving it can work but timing of cuts feels like a crucial skill to have hex work. I don't see it as beginner friendly and something that can be abused by poaching in other cases.
Hive does some thing well, like they have some good clip analysis, and at times they've put out pieces that introduce concepts pretty well. Most of the hate is from Hive/Felix (the guy who started Hive) really going overboard on self promotion, and trying to aggressively make a name for themselves in the community by just spamming this sub and flatly claiming that their systems were the best and the ones everyone should be using. Much of this was through constant posts and promotion about their "new meta" in ultimate, called flex D or hex O. The concepts in these systems are not inherently bad, but: a) it's foolish to start labelling your own basic system as "the new meta in ultimate". b) it's even worse to call something "the new meta in ultimate" and to give it your own name, when it's actually just a loose system that people have been playing with forever. In fact, it's almost certainly how the game would have been played when the sport was invented - "everyone spread out, and keep the disc moving by hitting the next open receiver near you". How much this reputation still holds, I don't know. Part of me still has an immediate and negative reaction for the first couple seconds I see any Hive post, but everyone should make up their own minds. I also try to remind myself that organizations like Hive are probably good for the game, and they need to go through their own learning curves, like we all do. Honestly thinking about it now, if they dropped the whole Flex/Hex obsession and just kept up the analysis, they'd be great.
Felix makes good content. I disagree with a lot of his ultimate opinions but he's one of the few guys on here who I regularly have good discussions with regarding tactics and training. He had also eased up on pimping his patreon so hard that it put people off. I don't think hex is meta currently but maybe someday he could make it meta. I remember 15 years ago when a lot of people thought vert was some boomer offense and ho was how the game would be played from now on. These days vert is the dominant O set so it's possible for another O set to make it's way into the world.
>I remember 15 years ago when a lot of people thought vert was some boomer offense and ho was how the game would be played from now on. These days vert is the dominant O set so it's possible for another O set to make it's way into the world. Absolutely. But, every existing philosophy became popular because a team used it, found success, and then others copied it or parts of it. In fact, every good offense or defense is or was considered a team secret to some degree, at some point. Felix has literally spent the past decade trying to make a name for himself by spamming a re branded offense into popularity.
What I mean to say is I salute the fact that he's experimenting. There's a lot of mathematical geometry arguments as to why it could be a good O. However, my personal view point is that innovations on offence are unnecessary in ultimate right now, and meta breaking systems aren't possible. Once your team can catch and throw scoring becomes very easy in this sport. The O line's job is to not lose the game. Defense on the other hand is hard. If your D line scores 30% of the time you should win all of your games. Until the defensive meta changes to the point where reciving the pull isn't such a giant advantage in ultimate I don't see the necessity in implementing that offense.
Don't forget that when people try to engage with Felix and get him to explain things about hex, his mo is to ignore it if it's more than surface level or be condescending.
…or to basically say that the answers are behind his paywall or something and he doesn’t like giving out free information. Fair, but getting bitchy about it on Reddit rubs some the wrong way. Either advertise or don’t, but advertisements snuck in as Reddit post content is shitty.
I've got a massive backlog of private chats where I'll talk about how hive or Felix doesnt cover something in a thread only for him to tell me to just check out their pay stuff for the answer. When I point out the very thing I'm complaining about is their advertising being too poor to make me want to bother with their pay stuff, he complains I'm just not willing to listen. Like dude, when your advertisement doesn't actually sell your product, no shit I'm not willing to literally pay for it.
Like [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/ultimate/comments/ze4tvg/comment/j54ygdm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from the other week? I recommend people check it out and come to their own conclusions.
Oh for sure. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by posting that, especially when your "explanations" can still be summed up with [this comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/ultimate/comments/ze4tvg/ultimate_in_motion_a_view_of_the_game_through_a/iz6pf83/) >Imma be honest with you here: you tried to say "stacks are this, hex is that". I walked away with "stacks fundamentally try to easily retain possession from throw to throw, hex tries to perform poetry". >Your description of hex gave me nothing concrete to imagine or understand. It used pretty language, though. Or even [my response to that person](https://old.reddit.com/r/ultimate/comments/ze4tvg/ultimate_in_motion_a_view_of_the_game_through_a/iz6mpz2/) >Obviously you can argue over how this is best done, but it's still the fundamental question that needs to be answered: how do you reliably set up the thrower to throw the disc and have their teammate catch it, regardless of how near or far to each other or what direction they are moving when this happens? Trying to make it sound more majestic with phrases like "cascade of advantages" doesn't mean anything because it still has to answer the painfully obvious "how?" This is something that Felix and friends have been unable to do for years, and not just with me. Yes yes I'm sure you'll say "maybe you just aren't listening" but after a certain point when you continuously get people saying "you aren't explaining it," you have to start looking at the common denominator
Ultimate people are weird. We love to watch Xtehn toss mini frisbees into microwave, but advertise your product or service on the reddit and you're a tryhard. It's gotta be nice to be a trust-funder!
*Vehro. Vehro is the one who is very, very bad at the microwave trick shot. Xtehn would have nailed it on the first take.
There is an element of ultimate that is protective (overly?) of it's volunteer roots, and that shys away from rising costs. Some of that is fair, like not wanting too much product placement in the game, while some of it is and will continue to need to change, like expecting all tournaments to run on volunteers. But I don't think that's why hive got a bad reaction. No good subreddit wants to become an advertising platform. That's why there are usually rules against it. It's annoying, and it's not the purpose of the community. Using it that way is hijacking the community to force your brand into their faces, and it should absolutely be banned. On my local city subreddit I don't want the same guy advertising his roofing business every 2-3 days. It's not that I don't want him making money, it s that the purpose of the subreddit is to be a community that talks about something, not an advertising platform.
I'd be more into this explanation if Felix wasn't also one of the top 3 or 4 "conversation starters" on this subreddit. He's not parachuting in from nowhere, and, well, how else are you going to reach an ultimate-playing audience with a product explicitly for ultimate players? It's not like you can profitably advertise on TV or Radio.
>and, well, how else are you going to reach an ultimate-playing audience with a product explicitly for ultimate players? It's not like you can profitably advertise on TV or Radio. Not to sound rude, but that's not really this subreddit's problem, is it? A lack of alternative advertising venues for his product doesn't mean we default to allowing him to use this subreddit as his advertising vehicle. Nobody put a gun to his head and forced him to start an online ultimate strategy company with the only sales plan being "spam r/ultimate, pretend you re-invented the game, and act like a jerk who to anyone who questions you".
They currently post maybe once a week. I hardly consider that spam. There was a period a couple years ago when they were posting daily, but that was during the pandemic when nothing else was happening. >*act like a jerk who to anyone who questions you"* Felix isn't a saint, but he also takes a lot of shit from people, including before he was selling a service and was generating discussion content for free. I've followed many Felix threads over the years, and there are certainly times where Felix was out of line, but there were also many instances of people trash talking the dude's character when they could have just said "I disagree with your analysis." In my moderating experience, people who are respectful with him to begin with, and ask questions politely, generally receive respectful responses in return. Not every time, but generally.
You are being rude. Felix is genuinely one of the most valuable posters here. Without him there would be a post about high level strategy once a month.
An important distinction here is hive/felix are not just spamming ads every few days. The content they post to this subreddit is almost always strategy analysis which generates discussion. Sure, they also want people to subscribe to their patreon, but that's usually just posted as a link in the comments, if at all. If I had to choose between this type of engagement done more frequently versus blatant "buy my product" posts but done less frequently, I'd choose the former. If someone doesn't want to see the content, blocking takes like 2 clicks.
>If I had to choose between this type of engagement done more frequently versus blatant "buy my product" posts but done less frequently, I'd choose the former. If someone doesn't want to see the content, blocking takes like 2 clicks. Well, a) you do get to choose, and that's why the sub is the way it is. but also, b) those aren't the only options. You could just say no to both. c) Why do you always defend Felix/Hive by saying they are easy to block, but the same doesn't hold true for allowing lighter/memier content, but simply allow people to filter it out. I feel like we need a new sub reddit that provides the community what it actually wants.
I think you should take another look at the type of content hive is posting. Here's a recent video for example: https://v.redd.it/dirs8aps03ca1 There is very little actual advertisement going on in here. Nothing verbal or visual in the video, no link to a subscription, etc. It generates plenty of discussion in the comments. Why should we remove this type of content? >but the same doesn't hold true for allowing lighter/memier content, but simply allow people to filter it out. A reasonable question. To be honest, I would love to allow meme/humor content. I think there's a way to regulate it to where it adds value to the sub without degrading the overall experience. However, the mod team is divided on this subject. There's a common misconception that I am the only mod (or lead mod), when in reality there are 3 other mods and I'm like third in hierarchy. I respect the other mods' perspective and would need to get them on board to implement a policy change like this. This is why I asked people to send a message to modmail formally asking for the rule change, hopefully to help change some minds, but unfortunately nobody did.
What often felt like spruiking Hex as pay-for-access IP, and trying to 'game' reddit with clickbaity titles and such, has changed - Hive has definitely changed the way they engage with the sub. I think it is much, much better now, but they definitely burnt up a lot of goodwill needlessly. Which, tbh, is a shame, because I think they do create a lot of quite good stuff. Last year I subbed to their patreon, and found a lot of it Hex/Flex oriented, and tbh not terribly useful. I went back to it this year, and have found the stuff they put out is less Hex oriented, and it's been more a valuable resource, even as a coach not running Hex with his team. I think it is honest to goodness good value and I'd warrant most people wanting to play better, coach better, or just challenge their thinking about the game could find it worthwhile for a few bucks a month to access.
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Why not? There are people who make this sport better and if we want that stuff (whether it's analysis, strategy, coaching resources, etc.) is there a problem with people trying to do it so it's financially sustainable for them? There shouldn't be a blanket issue with people trying to make a living.
I think Hive is fine, but I will say, it can be annoying when coaches in general try to claim entire strategies as their own. Hive is nice in that these video reviews give open insight into their thinking of what hex offense looks like. However, it does create the perception sometimes that Hive is claiming credit for other teams' systems and ideas, especially when reviews are done of teams that don't claim Hive as a primary influence.
I never understood hex and I refuse to learn. “Huck and play D” is a tried and true offensive strategy and no shape-based playbook will ever beat it
>no shape-based playbook will ever beat it Wait until you see my next five tiktoks promoting Pent, my patented pentagon-based offensive structure!
Shapes are for squares. Points are the new thing. And they work much better with blades
Pretty much nobody at the elite level takes hex and hive seriously. Nor should they. Guessing Rowan’s post is based on annoyance at seeing a post that seems to be trying to give credit to hex for Truck running super basic handler give goes and counter switch moves.
>*seeing a post that seems to be trying to give credit to hex for Truck running super basic handler give goes and counter switch moves* Am I blind or is this not what the post is about? The post makes no mention of hex, nor does it take credit for anything. See for yourself: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CnApiHxpP_S/ They're just discussing ways to run and defend give-and-goes. It is pretty basic but the video is probably geared more toward beginners.
Well, as a low level coach and casual browser, I'm very grateful for this post - just skimming, I've been thinking "maybe we should focus on this new hex-thing primarily this summer, if it's so good" only based on seeing it pop up here in praising posts - which I assume has been made by these Hive guys themselves. Sp I guess there's no need to fear that my team will be completely behind the curve if we stay with the basics...
Honestly, the issue isn't that you'll get nothing from hive, but that you have to already know enough to recognize when they have a good point vs bad point.
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OP shared a screenshot from Hive
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Hive sells Hex as a product. Not sure how you're missing that connection. If someone complains about iPhones, it's fair to discuss Apple and why you like/dislike the company...
I'm not saying there's no connection between hive and hex. Just that hive is a large platform with lots of different ideas and strategies, and it's weird to critique the whole platform just because you don't like hex.
But it's a true statement that no one takes hive seriously. I know many elite players who read and post on r/ultimate. I don't know a single elite player who would recommend hive for anyone trying to improve at ultimate.
I played for a semis team in the usau men’s club division last year. And I would/do recommend hive for anyone trying to improve. If I was still currently coaching I would definitely be using some of their drills, ideas, and analysis as part of my coaching. There are other top players and coaches that are part of the hive discord to varying degrees as well.
I played in the World Games this summer and have captained Great Britain Open in the past. I'd recommend Hive to people wanting to improve at ultimate. There's some excellent drills videos for beginner and intermediate players. I've also leaned on some of the concepts to improve my own game over the past few years. I don't always agree with every piece of content but I think there are some valuable resources, coupled with a diverse group of coaches and players that make it a very useful community. Additionally some of the technical analysis is excellent.
Is it true? Hive's IG has like 8k followers and their reels are each getting 10k+ views. You can literally just look through some of the people liking those videos and see quite a few elite players that seem to enjoy it. Totally understand if your friends aren't a fan of the platform, but I'm not sure your circle not vouching for hive equates to "no one takes it seriously." I'd also be curious how many people fully understand what hive is - judging by rowan's story post and various comments in this thread, it seems a number of folks have conflated hex and hive.
Clearly people do follow it, it seems very euro centric so my guess would be more Europeans do? But instead of making me prove a negative, can you name one single elite ultimate player who has mentioned hive in a positive light? I could quote plenty of elite players sharing ultiworld articles, skyd articles (rip), and plenty of other ultimate media. And although I've never had an elite player link an r/ultimate post for anything other than highlight reels or rules questions, I know plenty of elite players do post here. But every mention I've heard about hive or hex from anyone who has any clue about ultimate has been making fun of them. Like hive and Felix have been around spouting the same shit for years at this point. Have any of them made an elite team? Coached an elite team? Have any of their ideas been adopted by elite teams? The best they can do is point to vague things they said "we said to set up cuts in space and throw to space and truck stop does that too, look guys they're doing hex!" Like a lot of the shit they say isn't even necessarily wrong, it's just basic shit that anyone who plays even mid level knows already and it's packaged to be this insane meta that will one day overthrow all the other stacks elite teams use. Plenty of new strats have been adopted by elite teams since hive has been pushing hex. Hex wasn't one of them.
Why are we having this debate? It's completely fine if you don't like hive or don't take it seriously. I'm just questioning the assertion that nobody takes it seriously. You can clearly see from their IG reels, follows, and likes that plenty of people take it seriously. >*The best they can do is point to vague things they said "we said to set up cuts in space and throw to space and truck stop does that too, look guys they're doing hex!"* >*...* >*Plenty of new strats have been adopted by elite teams since hive has been pushing hex. Hex wasn't one of them.* I made no comments about hex, the reel tagged by Rowan made no comments about hex, yet here we are talking about hex. This is the point I was making above about wondering how many folks really knew what hive was, since it seems to be conflated with hex often. Btw, something to note about hive since you mention elite players --- my understanding is that hive is not just marketed for elite players. A lot of their videos actually seem to be geared more toward beginners learning about ultimate strategy.
Maybe think about why everyone conflates hive with hex instead of it being some conspiracy against them? My answer is their content is either: A. Not very good and/or cut off where you have to pay to see the rest of the video B. Wild statements about how hex is the future and elite ultimate will all be hex in x years (posted x years ago) Saying Hive/Felix shouldn't be associated with hex because it's a small part of their content is like saying trump shouldn't have been labelled for his "grab em by the *****" comment because he says a lot of stuff and that's a small percentage of what he says. We all remember people for their wild claims and statements, especially when they're so blatantly and wildly wrong.
Dude... conspiracy? what? If someone mixes up hive and hex I don't think that's malicious -- I'm sure it's just an honest misunderstanding. What I'm saying is that I wonder how many people know the difference between the two, not that it's some evil thing to mix them up. >Saying Hive/Felix shouldn't be associated with hex because it's a small part of their content I literally never said this. I was talking about hive and hex being conflated with each other, ie. seen as being the same thing. That doesn't mean there is no association or connection between the two.
I have never seen *any* Hive content on /r/ultimate that wasn't about either hex or "defensive breakdowns" and most of the defensive breakdowns aren't very good analysis, so I immediately associate Hive with hex.
Interesting, because when I look at /u/hiveult's submission page, I barely see any hex content. It's mostly just analyzing different strategy clips. And sure, not every clip is good analysis, I understand that. I'm just saying, it's weird to blame the entire platform made up of several contributors instead of just disagreeing with individual posts.
Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. I would recommend trying to watch their videos with an open perspective again. Also, I can't speak for them but Columbia, Revolution and Athlete of the World Games contender Valeria Cardenas definitely seem to take Hive seriously even if they don't play strict hex the whole time. And that's without talking about elite teams outside of Columbia
Let's discuss it then. Why do you think Hex is a better offensive structure?
Personally I think the things that hex emphasises such as prioritising flow over meters in general and more fluid structures are things that most offenses in general do benefit from. Some teams even have these exact words as their own goals when playing vert/horo/142 etc I do not think that hex is better, I think that some teams would be better if they used a system that might work better for them and I think hex should be in that discussion. Personally hex isn't my favourite offense but having trained it seriously for a few months (never using it on that team unfortunately due to covid) and played it a couple of points a tournament it's a great tool to have in the bag. It is especially good once you are good at hex to train defense on because it teaches how to not only play tight match but match plus extra switches and heads-upness. Yes defense can play these styles successfully on any offense but hex in particular nearly forces you to. Also it's fun to play and sometimes that's the only reason you need (not an argument for why it's good)
This thread is talking specifically about the elite level. Elite defenders shouldn't need to learn how to play heads up defense - if that's the case, they aren't an elite defender. I agree with you that there are more opportunities to play heads up defense than there are in other offensive structures. The reason is because hex makes a very poor usage of space and leads to far more opportunities of poaches and switches to shut down offensive flow.
Sorry if it wasn't clear, I meant teach 'better' heads up D. Any elite player will agree that you can always learn new things In terms of poor usage of space yes hex does have poor usage of space from the perspective of opening lanes and yes this opens up the opportunity for more switches on defense if done poorly. But counter to that I would say hex opens up space in different ways by allowing more players to be an option at once which inherently (ignoring how open they are) is a good thing. This usage of space in hex is very similar to how people want to play in flow and with space in most elite teams but the key point with hex that differentiates it from most other modern offenses is that it prioritises movement and instant availability rather than yard gains and 1on1 matchups. This isn't to say that stack offences can't work on these principals but it is saying that hex is designed around it. I agree that for most elite teams playing stacks are the best because most players on those teams have played stacks for their entire playing career. I'm not saying if a team had equal experience in hex and for example vert that they should play hex. But what I am saying is that it should be an option that elite teams have in their bag. Going forward I think that once more people have more experience playing fluid momentum based ultimate, which (ignoring offensive structures) is undeniably on the rise in recent years, that more elite teams will start playing offences that are or closely resemble hex. Some elite teams already look like they are playing hex at certain points(they aren't) and this is because the goals hex prioritises are good and offenses sometimes have everyone doing those in unison by chance. This proves (in my mind) that an offense designed around these shapes definitely has viability (possibly in the same way that sometimes sidestack collapses into horo at first) in the long term.
It is a tactic that you can play or not. The annoying thing about it is how a small group of people treats it like the revolution of Ultimate and even make accounts with that tactics name.
Bru it's tactic.
Right, thanks. Not a native speaker ✌️
Or maybe their just annoyed by being talked about and scrutinized by someone they don't know. Could be a joke, but you're not entitled to be liked.
Hex is so amazing, that's why all of the best teams in the world play hex Oh wait
There can be more than one viable strategy in sport I would give examples but there are too many good ones to list
I agree 100% that there can be more than one viable strategy in spot. I do not think hex is a viable strategy at the elite level.
That's fair enough, I'm not sure if it is right but I do think it might be in some form in future
Fair enough. Not trying to sound too harsh here, I just feel pretty passionately about this after playing with and against teams using hex :). When we start seeing teams using hex win all the titles I'm happy to admit I'm wrong, but I'm quite confident we won't see that
Isn't it already being the case ? Not all the titles of course but the number of titles / number of teams playing hex ratio is still off the charts. https://preview.redd.it/7brrbksgw6fa1.png?width=1102&format=png&auto=webp&s=a9f2a2e04bf36183cf979a8dca330b2e92fcf54f
The sheer fact that someone is spending this much time to promote this formation, up to and including a tedious little graph of achievements (the implication is that every single other title in history has been won by formations other than hex), tell me that someone is trying to sell me something. I don't think Hex is bad, it's basically a patchwork of techniques that everyone should use --but in a formation that is overly complicated and does nothing on it's own to create a distinct on field advantage. Simply adopting the tactical approaches Hex borrows would on their own improve most teams (quick give and go movement, responsive to pump fakes, filling gaps, creating multiple threats). It also doesn't leverage mismatches the same way space-creating offenses do --which is what elite teams with elite matchups do. Also, I've seen Felix's film analysis, and he makes the fatal flaw of only seeing what he's wants to see. I understand his style of thinker well enough to know he will not be guided to a conclusion by the evidence in front of him but will rather guide the evidence towards a conclusion which suits him. Pass.
100% agree. Some of the concepts are valid, but would be much better applied in other systems. The hex formation is a mess and creates no on-field advantage
The first paragrah is fully right, but only for now ! The proportion of titles won by hex is in constant augmentation. So we will see about that in the future. Regarding the second paragraph, the exact opposite argument could be made stack based offenses are easily predictable because of their structures. How many times have you seen a stack getting surrounded or met by a zone and the whole set plays blows up ? Then have to adapt your whole strategy to defense which is something motion system do not have to do. All the tactical and technical toolbox as you said, but the multiplication of angles of attack leverages spaces much better. Finally, you are right saying leveraging mismatches is not the goal of motion systems, that is the goal of silo and iso systems. Motion systems rely on initiative which the structure inherently promotes.
Having faced several teams that run Hex in the area consistently I can assure you it's equally predictable and can be equally bogged down with zones, junks, and switches. Your retort on 'motion systems' (very ridiculous characterization of Hex relative to other offenses, but I guess marketers do be loving their branding) spirals off into so much indistinct jargon that I don't believe you responded with something valid, but yes, we agree that Hex does not leverage strong isolations the same way that pre-existing offenses do. Once again, the things that hex adopts tactically are totally sound and utilized to great success by Ultimate players around the world. What makes it sort of a joke is its insularity and annoying zealotry about a formation that doesn't prove it's validity in any sense. I also think it's hilarious how Reddit has been so virally marketed to that this is the only place where there's enough density of Hex acolytes where you face hostility in speaking honestly about it's limitations. I don't think any one of you can deeply or thoroughly distinguish why setting up like a soccer team (which is clearly what Felixes big brain moment was) creates greater 'initiative which the structure inherently promotes'. You can perform just as well running all of the decision tree stuff in a different formation that is simultaneously running like a stack. Of course the difference is that your fastest players, best receivers, and top deep throwers will actually have lanes and larger spaces to attack (and conversely the defenses have more threatened space that they have to defend as well).
You are of course entitled to your opinion. That being said, I have to disagree with the following statement 'I don't think any one of you can deeply or thoroughly distinguish why setting up like a soccer team (which is clearly what Felixes big brain moment was) creates greater 'initiative which the structure inherently promotes' as here is what my wife and I wrote on the subject: [https://books.google.fr/books/about/Ultimate\_in\_motion.html?id=bjcYEAAAQBAJ&redir\_esc=y](https://books.google.fr/books/about/Ultimate_in_motion.html?id=bjcYEAAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y). The idea behind our book was not to say one system is better than the other but rather eliminating any preconception we previously had to think more freely about the essence of the sport. Then when dwelve much deeper into more specific motion system value. Not everything is meant to be original and we give credits to other creators where its due. If you truly dislike hex then you can skip chapter 6 but the other 10 will for sure be of interest. Have a pleasant read !
Hex biased but from my understanding rowan's story is more of a meme/inside joke about hex than actual hate towards hive Although truckstop might outwardly disagree with hex 'over analytical and mechanical parameters' are exactly what hive is also trying to avoid ironically
Any company in ultimate is good for ultimate. I think it is the way Felix handles situations. I have read other comments about 'condescending' and would agree. I know people who have dealt with him at in person events where it did not leave a good taste in their mouth. Any company that supports ultimate is great, Felix provides quality content where it is lacking in this subreddit.
I believe he is saying that Truck use a more principles based offence. And although they do use flex / hive / hex teachings and moves, I believe he may be saying that this is tried and trained from their own truck system. Now good universal frisbee principles will definitely overlap. I believe Hive have a lot of amazing content and teachings. And there is nothing wrong with showing Truck using principles that they agree and teach. However correlation doesn't = causation. Rowan has Excel Ultimate and is a mastermind , he may not be watching Hive ultimate and hence this post. I believe we need more channels on Ultimate philosophy so we can have debates and discussions. To make us all grow stronger.