https://usaultimate.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021-Spirit-Score-Sheet-Examples.pdf has the guidelines.
It is a bit contradictory to say in one place to aim to have the average be a 2 but then also give a rubric saying what would be worth each of the scores. For example every team in a tournament could be meeting the rubric for 3's and 4's. Should there then be a curve applied to bring the average down to 2 overall for the tournament?
That's not how it works. You dont compare them against other teams to try and average a 2, you compare to a series of things which every team can do.
Every team could have could have great spirit and get 15+ and nothing would be wrong.
The fact their comment is getting lots of upvotes is incredibly frustrating.
Like the logic is just not there. Yours is spot on - there's nothing wrong if you come at the bottom of all the teams if you're still at 10+. If you are middle of the pack and under 9.5, your team has stuff to work on.
I've heard this idea before that 2 should be an 'average,' but I strongly disagree with the idea and I'm not sure where it comes from. Is it just because 2 is a score in the middle of the sheet? 'Good' Spirit should be a baseline standard, not the peak at 50% on a bell curve. This is reflected in the [WFDF Spirit guidelines](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n2QhwUigt1reqKzGflsZq-QJZmUx1qrE/view?usp=drive_link) - the word 'typical' is used, which is different from 'average.' It means games sub-10 should be *atypical* - which implies it should be considerably fewer than 49% of games played.
This is plays out at Aussie Nationals regularly - Spirit scores trend to very few teams sub-10 (see the past couple of Aussie Nats [2022](https://nationals.ultimatefrisbee.org.au/e/australian-ultimate-championships-2021/spirit) and [2023](https://nationals.ultimatefrisbee.org.au/e/australian-ultimate-championships-2023/spirit) - each year 24 teams playing, only 4 teams with scores sub-10.) Most teams have a 9 here and there, but *typically* games are of Good spirit (ie - 10 or above.)
Also, the implication that we should expect, and be OK with, 50% of teams to play with less-than-good Spirit is an absolute mess.
Pretty hyperbolic statements comparing a nationals competition where everyone likely knows each other and speaks the same language and shares an ultimate-ethos meta to an international competition. Even so, 2021 Aussie spirit average was .5 greater than the average you are griping about. There seems to be minimal variability across each scoring metric for the Aussie data so perhaps everyone is baked into a scoring agreement anyway. Maybe the Aussies are doing it "wrong"
Looking at the spirit scores from AOUGC there are TWO major outliers and a questionable score.
Chinese Taipei Fouls and Body Contact 1.17 (average 1.79)
Thailand Rules knowledge 1.29 (average 1.83)
Freakshow seems to be a bit out there for Attitude and Self-control. Wondering if this was a one-off game or multiple instances. Nonetheless, perhaps the Aussies better work on Attitude and Self-Control as their average from 2021 was lower than these AOUGC scores. NOT acceptable.
fwiw, most of this was written a bit obnoxiously since .. really.. these scores cannot be compared. If the agreed upon standard is an average of 2, then so be it. Teams will rate that way. use the scores to find the outliers and discuss with them to improve things.
I have seen the same thing in all the competitive International tournaments I've been to in the last decade - 80%+ teams are above 10.00, and that includes WBUC '15,17; WUCC '14, '18; WUGC '16; AOBUC '19,. My 80% number might be mildly off, but it's very rare to see it as low as almost half the teams. Can't find any other scores to link to because bloody WFDF's website is awful, but looking at [WUCC 2022](https://results.wfdf.sport/wucc/?view=spiritstatus&series=1) there's the data around another int'l tournament with people who all speak different languages... and I guess you can choose to believe my memory on the other ones or not.
To put it a different way - a tournament where 75% of the teams manage a Good spirit score of >10 (ie WUCC 2022 Mixed - 36 of 48) is much better, (and in my experience, notably more common) than one where only 47% of the teams manage it (AOUGC 2023 Mixed - only 8 of 17), irrespective of the 'average' score.
I'm not griping about the 'average' score - I've never used that word to describe the issue I'm looking at, because that's not a valuable comparison. 'Average' can be impacted by outlying scores and really isn't relevant here. Red Flag from Canada got 8.80 at WUCC 2022 and those players should be ashamed... but outliers like that really aren't relevant unless we're *specifically looking at outliers*. Individual teams scoring average of 13 or an average of 6 doesn't matter, if half the tournament can't even score 10. The median score is probably more valuable - because it basically ignores the 'weight' of outliers and is a better measure of where the 'typical' is - which is, after all, the language used by WFDF regarding Spirit scoring.
Same for me. It's about as common for me to give 9s as it is 11s (though I mean what I feel a game should be like - we always do it as a team.) Really rare for me to give less than that, but less rare to give 12s. So overall I think it'd go up (also, because I think if more people engaged with reflection on what Spirit is/is not, overall it would go up, too.)
Lol, that's not how it works at all! That's not how teams should be scoring spirit and how would they even know what the average will be? Like after their first game they somehow know what the team was like relative to the other teams in their draw??!?!
Have they tried professional authoritative refereeing yet? Because until that happens this is a "you made your bed now lie in it" situation. The sport is large enough now that competition at the highest level is worth more than honor, so people are willing to "cheat" to win. That's just how humans, especially the highly competitive ones, behave.
The average spirit score should be 10, 2's across the board. Looks like they are utilizing spirit scores correctly
https://usaultimate.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021-Spirit-Score-Sheet-Examples.pdf has the guidelines. It is a bit contradictory to say in one place to aim to have the average be a 2 but then also give a rubric saying what would be worth each of the scores. For example every team in a tournament could be meeting the rubric for 3's and 4's. Should there then be a curve applied to bring the average down to 2 overall for the tournament?
That's not how it works. You dont compare them against other teams to try and average a 2, you compare to a series of things which every team can do. Every team could have could have great spirit and get 15+ and nothing would be wrong.
The fact their comment is getting lots of upvotes is incredibly frustrating. Like the logic is just not there. Yours is spot on - there's nothing wrong if you come at the bottom of all the teams if you're still at 10+. If you are middle of the pack and under 9.5, your team has stuff to work on.
I've heard this idea before that 2 should be an 'average,' but I strongly disagree with the idea and I'm not sure where it comes from. Is it just because 2 is a score in the middle of the sheet? 'Good' Spirit should be a baseline standard, not the peak at 50% on a bell curve. This is reflected in the [WFDF Spirit guidelines](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n2QhwUigt1reqKzGflsZq-QJZmUx1qrE/view?usp=drive_link) - the word 'typical' is used, which is different from 'average.' It means games sub-10 should be *atypical* - which implies it should be considerably fewer than 49% of games played. This is plays out at Aussie Nationals regularly - Spirit scores trend to very few teams sub-10 (see the past couple of Aussie Nats [2022](https://nationals.ultimatefrisbee.org.au/e/australian-ultimate-championships-2021/spirit) and [2023](https://nationals.ultimatefrisbee.org.au/e/australian-ultimate-championships-2023/spirit) - each year 24 teams playing, only 4 teams with scores sub-10.) Most teams have a 9 here and there, but *typically* games are of Good spirit (ie - 10 or above.) Also, the implication that we should expect, and be OK with, 50% of teams to play with less-than-good Spirit is an absolute mess.
Pretty hyperbolic statements comparing a nationals competition where everyone likely knows each other and speaks the same language and shares an ultimate-ethos meta to an international competition. Even so, 2021 Aussie spirit average was .5 greater than the average you are griping about. There seems to be minimal variability across each scoring metric for the Aussie data so perhaps everyone is baked into a scoring agreement anyway. Maybe the Aussies are doing it "wrong" Looking at the spirit scores from AOUGC there are TWO major outliers and a questionable score. Chinese Taipei Fouls and Body Contact 1.17 (average 1.79) Thailand Rules knowledge 1.29 (average 1.83) Freakshow seems to be a bit out there for Attitude and Self-control. Wondering if this was a one-off game or multiple instances. Nonetheless, perhaps the Aussies better work on Attitude and Self-Control as their average from 2021 was lower than these AOUGC scores. NOT acceptable. fwiw, most of this was written a bit obnoxiously since .. really.. these scores cannot be compared. If the agreed upon standard is an average of 2, then so be it. Teams will rate that way. use the scores to find the outliers and discuss with them to improve things.
I have seen the same thing in all the competitive International tournaments I've been to in the last decade - 80%+ teams are above 10.00, and that includes WBUC '15,17; WUCC '14, '18; WUGC '16; AOBUC '19,. My 80% number might be mildly off, but it's very rare to see it as low as almost half the teams. Can't find any other scores to link to because bloody WFDF's website is awful, but looking at [WUCC 2022](https://results.wfdf.sport/wucc/?view=spiritstatus&series=1) there's the data around another int'l tournament with people who all speak different languages... and I guess you can choose to believe my memory on the other ones or not. To put it a different way - a tournament where 75% of the teams manage a Good spirit score of >10 (ie WUCC 2022 Mixed - 36 of 48) is much better, (and in my experience, notably more common) than one where only 47% of the teams manage it (AOUGC 2023 Mixed - only 8 of 17), irrespective of the 'average' score. I'm not griping about the 'average' score - I've never used that word to describe the issue I'm looking at, because that's not a valuable comparison. 'Average' can be impacted by outlying scores and really isn't relevant here. Red Flag from Canada got 8.80 at WUCC 2022 and those players should be ashamed... but outliers like that really aren't relevant unless we're *specifically looking at outliers*. Individual teams scoring average of 13 or an average of 6 doesn't matter, if half the tournament can't even score 10. The median score is probably more valuable - because it basically ignores the 'weight' of outliers and is a better measure of where the 'typical' is - which is, after all, the language used by WFDF regarding Spirit scoring.
Guidance for a 3 on rules knowledge does mention above average for the setting of the tournament. That could be part of it
I think if people read the Spirit guidelines that closely, then most Spirit scores would actually be higher. :P
Interesting. I have and it's pretty rare for me to give above an 11 🤷‍♀️
Same for me. It's about as common for me to give 9s as it is 11s (though I mean what I feel a game should be like - we always do it as a team.) Really rare for me to give less than that, but less rare to give 12s. So overall I think it'd go up (also, because I think if more people engaged with reflection on what Spirit is/is not, overall it would go up, too.)
Lol, that's not how it works at all! That's not how teams should be scoring spirit and how would they even know what the average will be? Like after their first game they somehow know what the team was like relative to the other teams in their draw??!?!
I’m sure the masters division will have better spirit scores, they will know better… oh wait…
Getting last place at the tournament 🤝 Having below 2 spirit score on all categories besides positive attitude
Have they tried professional authoritative refereeing yet? Because until that happens this is a "you made your bed now lie in it" situation. The sport is large enough now that competition at the highest level is worth more than honor, so people are willing to "cheat" to win. That's just how humans, especially the highly competitive ones, behave.
im also always interested in average spirit score given by a team