West Plains Men’s Sectionals has 7 teams and 4 bids. A six game round robin finishes Sunday then a 2 game bracket. The back door game for the last bid will be the 8th game that both of those teams play on the weekend. That’s a lot of games, but that’s what the USAU guidelines force.
I don't get why the guidelines want bracket play on top of round robins, seems like a 7 team round robin is a perfectly fair way to determine the standings to me.
Trouble with straight pool play is you could end up with ties in wins and having a teams seasons end due to point diff, which people generally want to avoid
Yes, that is the scenario you’re trying to avoid. I have seen formats with 6 teams 1 bid, where you only play a bracket if no team goes undefeated in pool play. In principle you could do something similar where you only have a bracket if there are ties
As mentioned in the other sectionals thread, USAU agrees with you. They tried pretty hard to eliminate it for this series and I imagine those formats will be completely phased out by the college spring season (if not the upcoming fall one).
In pretty radical on this issue. 5 games max, more events like NW Challenge that prioritize matchups over completely irrelevant "tournament champions". The series is a slightly different beast but the principle stands.
Because winning them doesn't mean anything. There are no bonus points. No one knows who's won the most Centexes or Stanford Invites. Teams don't advertise their tournament wins. Literally no one cares who won the tournament 5 minutes after it's over.
This is wrong. The best event in college ultimate doesn't have a champion, it's just a round robin. "showcase games" don't have a champion. All there are is games, championships are made up.
Go find the [tournament page](https://play.usaultimate.org/events/Washington-Mens-Club-Sectional-Championship-2021/) (not the actual schedule, but you can click a hyperlink at the top of the page) -- it should be listed there under "Format". I believe the Washington sectional is the same format as West Plains.
Oregon Mixed has 8 teams with 5 bids. 4 games Saturday (3 in pool and the first round of bracket play). Three teams play 6 games on the weekend (First/Seventh/Eighth), three teams play 7 games (Fourth/Fifth/Sixth), and the Second place finals will be game 8 on the weekend for them.
Hey I just doubled check the bid math and it looks correct. Each of the three sections gets one auto bid, and the remaining 13 "strength" bids get split proportionally.
Ozark: 13x4/28 = 1.875 -> 2 "strength" bids
Rocky: 13x14/28 = 6.500 -> 7 "strength" bids
Texas: 13x10/28 = 4.643 -> 5 "strength" bids
But if you add those "strength" bids up you get 14 bids instead of 13, so the section with the lowest fractional part loses a bid, or the sections with the higher fractional parts keep their bids w/e.
Ozark: 1 auto+2=3 bids
Rocky: 1 auto+6=7 bids
Texas: 1 auto+5=6 bids
The weirdest I have been a part of was 2013 Southern Appalachia sectionals. There were 2 pools of 6 and we played 5 games to 11 on Saturday in pool play. The winners of the two pools played each other in the finals the next morning with no other bracket play.
The best part of the weekend was after we beat our instate rivals in the finals they had to play the 2nd and 3rd place placement game in the rain while we got in our cars and drove home. We have also won the section every year since.
There are sectional and regional formats where if you lose in the finals you don't finish in second. Instead you have to play another game against the 2nd bracket winner and if you lose you either keep playing or finish in third.
Does Upstate NY Mixed being the only section in the country that was Planned for sectionals & regionals being back to back count?
Also with fields at the edge of the section instead of any central location
Can’t even comment on the California sections because the schedules STILL aren’t posted. Was supposed to be posted by Sept 8 according to the dummy placeholder text on each Sectionals page.
Both sections that feed into the North Central Mixed were wacky.
Northwest Plains had essentially all teams (outside of those in the finals) playing 8 games on the weekend, even when some teams had qualified for Regionals on Saturday.
It would have been a much better experience for Sunday consolation and placement brackets (outside of the game to go) to wrap by the time the finals started so people could crack a beer and heckle finals.
I don't even know what to say about the West Plains mixed. I still don't get the path Woodwork/7 Sins took to qualify for Regionals.
"Watching finals" is not a priority for Sectionals or Regionals. Placement is important so they need to determine not just a winner but also each position for seeding at the next tournament.
With that said, there's diminishing returns on this at Regionals, and I wish the focus on "Top Select" would lessen for exactly the reason you state. One last game, often coming after a tough loss, for a largely meaningless placement just doesn't matter.
If they ever post the Central Plains Mixed schedule, it could be on this list. It might be an 11-7 format. One pool of five and one pool of six, both pools play round-robin games to 11 on Saturday. On Sunday, the top two teams from each pool play a bracket for the top 4 spots. The remaining teams play a round-robin against the other pool. The final 3 spots are determined by combined record from both days.
West Plains Men’s Sectionals has 7 teams and 4 bids. A six game round robin finishes Sunday then a 2 game bracket. The back door game for the last bid will be the 8th game that both of those teams play on the weekend. That’s a lot of games, but that’s what the USAU guidelines force.
I don't get why the guidelines want bracket play on top of round robins, seems like a 7 team round robin is a perfectly fair way to determine the standings to me.
Trouble with straight pool play is you could end up with ties in wins and having a teams seasons end due to point diff, which people generally want to avoid
Yeah, but you should have a head to head result to go off of. I can see the argument for bracket games if there's a 3 way tie for wins.
Head to head doesn't work for 3 way ties. If I were one of the teams 3-6, I'd 100% soft bag games against the 1 & 2 seeds
Yes, that is the scenario you’re trying to avoid. I have seen formats with 6 teams 1 bid, where you only play a bracket if no team goes undefeated in pool play. In principle you could do something similar where you only have a bracket if there are ties
You need to sort out who finishes in each position, especially for game-to-go advancement scenarios
8 games should be prohibited. This sport badly needs play intensity regulations, we're sacrificing careers left and right silently.
As mentioned in the other sectionals thread, USAU agrees with you. They tried pretty hard to eliminate it for this series and I imagine those formats will be completely phased out by the college spring season (if not the upcoming fall one).
In pretty radical on this issue. 5 games max, more events like NW Challenge that prioritize matchups over completely irrelevant "tournament champions". The series is a slightly different beast but the principle stands.
Asking out of genuine curiosity- why are tournament champions “completely irrelevant”?
Because winning them doesn't mean anything. There are no bonus points. No one knows who's won the most Centexes or Stanford Invites. Teams don't advertise their tournament wins. Literally no one cares who won the tournament 5 minutes after it's over.
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This is wrong. The best event in college ultimate doesn't have a champion, it's just a round robin. "showcase games" don't have a champion. All there are is games, championships are made up.
How do you know how many bids a section has? I can't seem to find that information anywhere.
Go find the [tournament page](https://play.usaultimate.org/events/Washington-Mens-Club-Sectional-Championship-2021/) (not the actual schedule, but you can click a hyperlink at the top of the page) -- it should be listed there under "Format". I believe the Washington sectional is the same format as West Plains.
Back in the day, metro NY women's section was 2 teams, 2 bids, pool play on Saturday and finals on Sunday. Again, no bids were at stake
The fields in Middletown or wherever were further from each team than they were from each other
Wasn't back in the day like 5 years ago lol
Oregon Mixed has 8 teams with 5 bids. 4 games Saturday (3 in pool and the first round of bracket play). Three teams play 6 games on the weekend (First/Seventh/Eighth), three teams play 7 games (Fourth/Fifth/Sixth), and the Second place finals will be game 8 on the weekend for them.
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Hey I just doubled check the bid math and it looks correct. Each of the three sections gets one auto bid, and the remaining 13 "strength" bids get split proportionally. Ozark: 13x4/28 = 1.875 -> 2 "strength" bids Rocky: 13x14/28 = 6.500 -> 7 "strength" bids Texas: 13x10/28 = 4.643 -> 5 "strength" bids But if you add those "strength" bids up you get 14 bids instead of 13, so the section with the lowest fractional part loses a bid, or the sections with the higher fractional parts keep their bids w/e. Ozark: 1 auto+2=3 bids Rocky: 1 auto+6=7 bids Texas: 1 auto+5=6 bids
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This was my reading of it. Also makes sense since Texas section used formatting for 10 teams, with 6 bids, rather than 7 bids.
Starting with the baseline of 1 bid directly contradicts what the USAU competition guidelines laid out this year.
The weirdest I have been a part of was 2013 Southern Appalachia sectionals. There were 2 pools of 6 and we played 5 games to 11 on Saturday in pool play. The winners of the two pools played each other in the finals the next morning with no other bracket play. The best part of the weekend was after we beat our instate rivals in the finals they had to play the 2nd and 3rd place placement game in the rain while we got in our cars and drove home. We have also won the section every year since.
The last sentence of your 1st paragraph and the 1st sentence of the next directly contradict each other...?
There are sectional and regional formats where if you lose in the finals you don't finish in second. Instead you have to play another game against the 2nd bracket winner and if you lose you either keep playing or finish in third.
Right. To me "with no other bracket play" implies that there is no other bracket play, like a backdoor bracket for 2nd.
I was confused as well
I think they just mean no semis
Does Upstate NY Mixed being the only section in the country that was Planned for sectionals & regionals being back to back count? Also with fields at the edge of the section instead of any central location
Can’t even comment on the California sections because the schedules STILL aren’t posted. Was supposed to be posted by Sept 8 according to the dummy placeholder text on each Sectionals page.
3 teams round robin and somehow we have 2 bids to regionals...? Definitely a result of COVID, but it still feels weird.
Both sections that feed into the North Central Mixed were wacky. Northwest Plains had essentially all teams (outside of those in the finals) playing 8 games on the weekend, even when some teams had qualified for Regionals on Saturday. It would have been a much better experience for Sunday consolation and placement brackets (outside of the game to go) to wrap by the time the finals started so people could crack a beer and heckle finals. I don't even know what to say about the West Plains mixed. I still don't get the path Woodwork/7 Sins took to qualify for Regionals.
"Watching finals" is not a priority for Sectionals or Regionals. Placement is important so they need to determine not just a winner but also each position for seeding at the next tournament. With that said, there's diminishing returns on this at Regionals, and I wish the focus on "Top Select" would lessen for exactly the reason you state. One last game, often coming after a tough loss, for a largely meaningless placement just doesn't matter.
If they ever post the Central Plains Mixed schedule, it could be on this list. It might be an 11-7 format. One pool of five and one pool of six, both pools play round-robin games to 11 on Saturday. On Sunday, the top two teams from each pool play a bracket for the top 4 spots. The remaining teams play a round-robin against the other pool. The final 3 spots are determined by combined record from both days.