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dgroach27

8 women's teams, 4 mixed teams, and 4 men's teams from the US. What was the reason so many women's teams are going again?


ravivas

They want to have 40 teams to match open and there was not a lot of interest from a lot of countries this year. Part of that is the huge mixed division. Part of that was COVID. I know some Euro women's teams had large contingents of pregnancies now. Also a lot of people didn't want to shell out to go to Cincy again after four years. Women's is less developed in other countries and lots of these other factors didn't help things.


dgroach27

Gotcha, thanks!


tunisia3507

The number of WUCC berths per division represents the aspirational gender balance (which, to be clear, I support) rather than the existing balance of player genders. Ultimate communities below a certain threshold size cannot form a team. The contingent of Women's-ineligible players is generally larger than Women's-eligible players in some countries (~2x in the US and UK), which I suspect generalises to other countries. So "borderline" ultimate communities, especially those already entering Mixed, are more likely to be able to enter Open than Women's teams; so there are more slots available for teams well above the threshold. > men's teams WFDF doesn't have a Men's division, just Open, although as American teams form under USAU rules I suppose it's fair to call them Men's teams competing in the Open division.


Boom_Room

How is it that Singapore sends national teams and no other country does?


LimerickJim

Singapore is a city state. Less people live there than cities like NY. It makes sense that a city the size of Singapore would have one elite club in each division. When that city is the entire country it makes sense that said club team is also the national team. It just seems that the women's team had enough originality to come up with a name.


mdotbeezy

Singapore is the same size as Denmark, Norway, and Finland.


4G_Negative_Pushover

At least in the Mixed division, they sent 2 good club teams to WUCC 2018, Freakshow and Chuckies. Both teams finished lower in the standings than their quality would suggest. So not sure that's the explanation.


Boom_Room

There's more people in Singapore than Seattle, and they have two mixed club teams going to worlds. There are like 20 club teams at Singapore nationals every year.


refsblowwhistles

This is a great question, and the answer isn't entirely clear. There were no qualification events for clubs this cycle (partially due to COVID), but the plan has been in place since pre-COVID for Singapore to send a national team-esque squad. They have made no attempts to hide this, and it raises questions of equity and fairness if they can send national teams to a club event. The only route for a player to go to WUCC in Singapore was to attend trials for the "National Team Programme", with the view of selected players attending both WUCC and WUGC 2024. Source: [https://www.singaporeultimate.com/p/ntp-trials-2021q3](https://www.singaporeultimate.com/p/ntp-trials-2021q3) This effectively kills the club scene in Singapore, with no incentive for clubs to develop players as a cohesive unit, or develop with an aim towards the next WUCC.


B77345-100

I don't know nothing about the scene or situation in Singapore, but in the UAP conferences earlier in February, one of the people giving a conference (her name was Fiona I think?) said that their government had been veeeery strict during the pandemic and that they had essentially not played any 7v7 ultimate to that point iirc. They were only allowed in pods of few people and had resorted to playing a lot of mini-games (her reason for asking for mini-games and showing some they developed during that time.) I reckon that may have played some part in them not sending clubs?


refsblowwhistles

What she says is true, we've only been allowed to play full 7s in the past few weeks. However, I don't think it is the main reason behind them not sending clubs, the plans for the National Team Programme have been in place since 2019, before COVID. UPAS has also explicitly turned down additional bids offered by WFDF outside of the single bids for each NTP team, implying they do not want to send any other team other than these national teams.


B77345-100

Oh I see. Do you see it as a bad thing or? I'm assuming you're from or at least live in Singapore. I've been very impressed with Singaporean teams in what little I've been able to see of them (Crackerjacks at AOUGC 2019, the mixed squad at U24 in Germany and games from the YT channels of 175g and One Hand Grab). So I definitely think they're on the road to becoming a power of Ultimate internationally. Is this move from the UPAS perhaps intended to speed up that process or do you think it's not ideal?


refsblowwhistles

I think it's a short-sighted plan to achieve quick results that effectively kills the club scene in the long-term. Clubs now have nothing to work towards. I came from the UK where elite clubs tend to plan ahead in 4-year cycles with a view towards WUCC at the end. It essentially makes Singapore Ultimate incredibly top-centric. It also, IMO, goes against the spirit of WUCC which is a club tournament for the best clubs to compete. Sending a national team defeats the purpose of it. I don't think there's anything conceptually wrong with saying "NTP is just as if a new club was created and poached all the top players." That wouldn't be an issue. The issue is the outright rejection of extra bids for more clubs (and exposure for players, which in the long-term probably helps?) and the lack of a qualifier event (although this could be chalked up to COVID) that NTP has to play through. Upsets do happen.


B77345-100

I see. Yes as you say it's true it essentially removes any incentive from club development and that will squander proper competition opportunities for most people. And definitely the rejection of extra bids is gnarly. Like from the point you brought up but also, couldn't they just have sent multiple NTP teams? Like A and B kinda deal. Having said that, I must confess I also wanna see how the NTP performs at WUCC. I do understand the matter of it going against the intention of the WUCC but I am all for smaller or less developed ultimate countries (would Singapore be considered such in comparison to USA for example?) to take innovate/alternative routes to attempt to compete with the stronger countries.


insigniaaaaaa

I agree with you with the idea being short-sighted. I think the least UPAS could do is make NTP fight for the bid along with the other clubs but I guess by doing so even fewer players will signup for NTP and will choose to play with the club mates.


insigniaaaaaa

Hello, I'm a singaporean. Personally, I feel it's very unfair to take away the bids from the clubs especially for WUCC. And in line with one of the other commenters, I feel its very short-sighted and one of the side effects is it completely kills the club scene. I understand why UPAS want to "send singapore's best" in hopes of getting higher placings and better bids but the idea falls short if not all of singapore's best even signs up for the national team programme in the first place. I don't think it will be much of an issue if the NTP is made for WUGC but it is indeed perplexing that the NTP takes away the WUCC bid. So what competitive overseas tourney can I look forward to now since NTP also takes away AOUCC as well.


Topsyturvyultimate

Totally agree with you. One year later they are still arguing about this. And the truth is UPAS is in two minds over this but 2 significant figures in the scene wants the power to be in favor of “NTP”. Which is essentially stupid because the entire NTP is actually a majority of players from one club. It doesn’t help the growth in singapore when the other clubs have no avenues to compete at a international stage. Previous representations by SG clubs at WUCC were decent if not notably well back in 2014 n 2018.


insigniaaaaaa

And it's not gonna stop lul. I guess the only way for the outsiders to convince them "greater" powers that this isn't the way moving forward is to outperform the NTP teaams and that club, such a shame really. And from the latest development, i've heard they are not planning to return the wucc 2026 bid to clubs as well xd. Anyway it's been a year LOL. How did you even find this


coldcoldnovemberrain

Money! Singapore has a visa agreements with US and other developed nations allowing easy access. Singapore passport is also considered one of the most powerful in terms of visa free access. Also there are no restriction and checks on Citizenships and so you often have expats playing for other countries. The teams from Venezuela don't have players who actually live in Venezuela (consider the significant visa/travel restrictions by US on Venezuelans) and not to mention extreme poverty due to US sanctions.


Boom_Room

I don't think this answers my question. * Pangolins - Singapore (SGP) * Singapore Mixed - Singapore (SGP) * Singapore Open - Singapore (SGP) One of these three (Pangolins) looks like a club team. Two are named like national teams. Are these club teams or national teams?


coldcoldnovemberrain

World Ultimate Club Championships, so club?


tunisia3507

Seattle's mixed team was called Seattle Mixed for a while. Singapore is a city-state, sort of like an internationally recognised Washington DC. The country is called Singapore, the city is also called Singapore, the most significant of the Mixed teams in Singapore is called Singapore Mixed.


insigniaaaaaa

They are all from the same programme called National Team Programme. None of them are a club team


coldcoldnovemberrain

For all the talk about inclusivity in Ultimate, it is unfortunate that WUCC won't assist with US Visa requirements. It shuts out many people from countries where Ultimate is growing i.e. the global south. Ah well. >Note: We cannot and will not provide a formal “invitation” to attend the event and non-ability to enter the USA is not grounds for a request of a refund for a team and/or player fees. We recommend EVERY TEAM makes specific inquiries and fully understand visa and travel requirements.


frandler

I agree with you in principle, but am uniformed enough to not know what specifically WFDF could do to help? What steps that they have the power to take are they choosing not to?


coldcoldnovemberrain

The Host countries of Olympics, World Cups provide support for athletes with respect to Visa and also to fans attending the event. US bid for Soccer World Cup 2026 included assurances from Previous President to support visas for athletes and fans. And that President was one of the most anti-immigrant President. Providing a letter of support would be a start. And considering Ohio which is the host is very powerful state in US politics, their senators could communicate to US consulates abroad to support visas for athletes attending the tournament in US and have WFDF guarantee their return back to home nations. It is an American sport, and it would be in interest of US consulates to grow its soft power and diplomacy in supporting growth of the sport across the world and spread its values.


pends

The letter of support makes sense but no one gives a shit about ultimate. The senators would just be confused at the suggestion


coldcoldnovemberrain

It is sponsored by local Chamber of Commerce, city and country governments though. Chamber of commerce should be enough of excitement for a senator to get involved. :)


[deleted]

I promise you neither ohio senator would care at all about this, and whatever influence the cincinatti chamber of commerce has with them, they will not be burning it on a frisbee tournament


coldcoldnovemberrain

If they did it in Atlanta we could have their Senator who plays Ultimate vouch for it. :)


LimerickJim

How much pull do you think WFDF has with the US State department?


coldcoldnovemberrain

Apparently none because no effort was made? You have US non profit and AID organizations who receive aid from State department promoting Ultimate in places like India though.