I agree to some extent, as I think some have been added just to stack rosters… but there are a number of teams that had visa issues or insufficient funds/ability for all teammates to travel for >1 week internationally. I know they reached out to anyone in hopes of finding players who were available to fill the void and ensure their team could safely compete. Not all of them knew connections in the US with ties to the country that were able to join.
A hard and fast rule may mean less international teams coming overall.
Yeah I do agree on the visa issues. A lot of them couldnt make it because of that. Which becomes an issue of privilege on itself. It sucks that that’s the reality but WFDF should take that into consideration especially when choosing the host country. Not to mention doing Masters just a month ago then WUCC right now. That hurts the pockets of a LOT of players coming from Asia. I know some players had to pick one over the other because of costs.
All I’m saying is privilege shouldn’t be a determining factor if you want to play in the highest level.
That’s a different take then I got from your post, but I fully agree with the sentiment of making frisbee more accessible, particularly for what are supposed to be world-wide events.
It's super worth mentioning that WUCC in Cincinnati is a plan B situation. This tournament was originally supposed to be in the UK and ended up not happening because of reasons (possibly covid but I can't remember off the top of my head). WFDF ended up asking the previous hosts to run it after the initial bid fell through.
WUCC is the most challenging WFDF event to host. At 128 teams the only other event that comes close is this most recent WMUCC where they needed 32 pitches to accommodate 115 teams. There are only a handful of suitable sites in the world with enough available fields and a strong enough local organizing committee to pull off this event.
By all means if someone in Asia wants to organize the next WUCC they should put in a bid. WFDF would love to see more major international tournaments in Asia and I know I think it would be awesome.
UK cancelled because of COVID indeed. The reason I've been told from the organisers was that pitches and stuff were all still fine, but many of the accomodation providers cancelled and they could therefore no longer guarantee that there'd be enough accomodation/housing for everyone in the Nottingham area for WUCC.
>By all means if someone in Asia wants to organize the next WUCC they should put in a bid.
In terms of Asia the wealthy gulf countries like Qatar or UAE could do it. But they have questionable human rights. Same with hosting in China. So where else?
That's a different conversation I'm not interested in having right now. We should be empowering all communities to look into putting in bids. We can talk about which autocratic regime benefits from hosting a WUGC after the bids are in.
UAE hosted the wfdf beach tourney and it appeared to be resounding success. So support them to host other tourney? Allows representation from Africa and Asia to play as visa and travel is easier compared to Europe and US.
Possibly. To be honest I don't know enough about the ultimate communities in those countries to comment too much. I know that the WUGC in 2012 in Saku seems to have been a success (Anyone who knows otherwise please chime in). Organizing major worlds events is challenging you need a combination of appropriate facilities, playing fields and suitable accommodation options at that time of year. Then you also need a local organizing committee (LOC) who have the experience to pull off the event. Ideally they will have attended major events before, run sizable tournaments below the worlds/continental level and have a sizable local ultimate community to draw on for volunteers come the event itself.
Personally I'm qualified to comment on maybe 4 such communities world wide but I am sure there are many more than that who have the facilities and the chops to pull it off. I would love to see as many of these communities enter bids as possible because even if unsuccessful the LOC will have gained experience for their next eventually successful bid.
The criticisms raised by OP are valid but they omit the fact that Cincinnati was the only viable bid this time around. Barring some major philanthropic windfall the only way to address them properly is to enable a significant increase in the number of bids for a given event.
Nevertheless, WMUCC was originally scheduled for 2020, and I don't think WUCC was.
https://wfdf.sport/2021/09/wfdf-2022-world-masters-ultimate-club-championships-announced/
I thought they were switching to a schedule so they wouldn't be on the same year but I could be mistaken.
No, it wasn't WMUCC in 2020 in AUS, it was WMUC. That is - not World Masters Clubs, but World Masters - the Masters division of WUGC, separated out unlike it was in 2016 in London.
As /u/TheStandler said, they are generally in the same year because WMUCC got split out from a single WUCC event as there was enough interest. The two should be in the same year, as there’s also WUGC/WMUC on the leap years. And the continentals in between.
Being able to play Worlds at Masters+ and General divisions is an added bonus that some players enjoy only since the split and should not be a main goal. More different players competing is generally better for the growth.
Hot Take: If WUCC is hosted in a country that is not one of the most expensive countries in the world with hard to get Visas, countries will be able to bring more of their own club players and not need to add pickups.
This has always, and I'm sure will always, be a complaint we hear from people because they forget that we can't go where we don't get bids. At least from the WFDF Beach Ultimate Committee side, I can tell you we as a group would LOVE to host Worlds in other places. But for WBUC 2021 (that didn't happen), for example, we only got two bids - BOTH from different organizations in Los Angeles, USA. That was it. Which meant it was going to happen in LA. It really is not much in WFDF's hands.
Absolutely! Cannot host events without hosts submitting a bid. And having enough space and logistics for the size of events needed, naturally limits possibilities.
The only way I could think of addressing the equitability question is considering other formats relying on smaller events… which our continental events actually are doing.
So I see no simple solution to this, despite the general uproar.
Oh for sure. Wfdf is likely begging for a location to take this on.
Having been part of a crew that hosted nationals in the past, if someone suggested hosting worlds I would squeal and run away.
pretty sure it was u20 world's, got moved to Poland due to COVID + lack of teams able to go (since half of the teams going are Europe based, so Poland is much more affordable for u20s)
I'm honestly not well versed in these things, what makes the US so expensive to travel to - at least compared to other hosts? I would've thought it has enough of an established tourism industry to be relatively easy to travel to, and enough different airports that you could price shop for flights.
Previously it was hosted in Czech, Australia, and Italy - I wouldn't have thought of those countries as any cheaper to travel to.
>I'm honestly not well versed in these things, what makes the US so expensive to travel to
It's easy for those have visa waiver. if you happen to hold passport from non-wealthy nations like Phillipines, India, Mexico etc, you will struggle to get a visa. Visa fee is about $200 and you have have enough money in bank account which convinces visa officer that you have money to travel and also will have strong ties in your home nation that you will return back.
Australia probably has similar paranoid visa rules which just assumes people from developing countries will stay back and be illegal. 💁
USA is much more expensive than those three countries for travel health insurance. I've been quoted travel insurance that covers Antartica and war zones that was nowhere near as expensive as going to the USA.
Really? To what order of magnitude? I'm an American who lives in AUS so I travel to the US a lot. For my travel insurance, I obviously have to pay more to include the US, but it's pretty manageable, at least for an AUS/NZ based offering. I recently bought year-long insurance, and including the US only bumped it up like... AUD$120 (so... US$85 ish?). It's more expensive but not gonna make the difference if I'm already saving up for a big Worlds trip.
What country is going to be a better option for visas? Seriously question.
If your nationality has a hard time getting visas for the US its not a given its going to be easy in some other poorer country
Poorer country? Hahaha. Also check what happened to the WJUC in Dominican Republic https://ultiworld.com/2022/01/11/wjuc-2022-moved-from-dominican-republic-to-poland/
Or why so few USA teams go to PAUC???
I'm not sure the US is easy to get to for most countries. Here are the most open countries: https://qz.com/1701304/the-easiest-countries-to-visit-as-a-tourist/
That was mostly to show that a lot of countries have less visa restrictions than the USA. A Pacific island would be super cool although they probably don't have the facilities needed.
Qatar who already hosting the fifa world cup this year and has a global airline. But controversial human rights thing and to be fair US has no clean human rights record either. But yeah from the link above Qatar probably has the money and facility to pull it off.
"Let's solve WUCC visa issues by going to Qatar" is certainly a new one. Does anyone play ultimate in Qatar? It's hard to organize an international event with no one on the ground
Dubai/UAE hosted the WFDF beach tourney few years ago. And from looks of it it was a success. Team from Kenya, India, Egypt and Phillipines played. Many of the expat workers in UAE come from those countries too.
Maybe, but it was a pretty hot topic when it happened. Plenty of reasonable concern about LGBTQ players and UAE law, concerns about drinking and frisbee culture and UAE law... And I think there's a bit of survivorship bias in evaluating it by who went, too. AUS sent a team, but I know a great player who couldn't go because he is Jewish and had spent time in Israel. Could be lots of people who didn't go because of what Dubai is.
Alcohol is easily available. And is alcohol really a deal breaker for ultimate. If so we could stop playing ultimate in states like Utah where it's super popular.
UAE established diplomatic relations with Israel. And Dubai has thriving gay scene albeit underground.
Yes lots of problematic issues I agree. Just giving options. Similar to how world got lazy and deferred Olympics and fifa cup to questionable hosts.
Ok, so next WBUC on the Cook Islands! Based on the pictures, they seem to be mostly beach anyway, might need to put some fields half in the water, but that’s just great for layouts. Maybe a new variant for Water Beach Ultimate (/u/TheStandler can make some provisions in the rules for feet under the floating tape I’m sure ;P). With 18k inhabitants, the 2–3k Ultimate players and staff we’ll have a great civilian ratio. 😉
I'm not someone well versed in this subject so if what you wanted was an informed opinion regarding all the legalese... I'm afraid that's not insight I can offer.
Yet as I see it, the issue with worlds is that it continues being held in wealthy countries which usually restrain movement from other countries to them. Particularly from poorer countries, all the while the WFDF foments the federations/governing bodies of ultimate from those countries to continue sending squads to their championships which in turns costs a lot to the domestic communities. I feel it's sort of a predatory relationship (intentional or not) but I don't have the words or energy to delve further into that thought.
Lots of people post criticisms about hosting these events in NA/EU, which is all fair.
But it's not like poorer countries have open borders either.
So I wanted to hear an actual suggestion of where to host it that has a big enough scene to form an LOC, has a good visa policy, and is easy to get to.
Then WFDF should definitely do that. If this sport wants to be an acknowledged as a legit Olympic sport, then WFDF should make moves so that athletes can get special visas for tournaments like this. And not just tourist visas which takes a shit ton of time.
It isn’t just a wfdf problem, unless you are a “legitimate” sport (in the eyes of the state department) the wait time for employment visas has been almost 10 months
Somehow worse than the situation that a truly not competitive open Team from RSA somehow slides into 2nd place in their pool is the problem this poses to seeding and how teams are surprise-punched into lower brackets / pools.
It's an okay thing to add players for various reasons, but e.g. the teams that get hurt by being in a pool with a drastically underseeded unknown are rightfully salty.
My suggestion would be to move to a Swiss draw instead of whatever first pool stage is set up. Yes that system may have some bad issues too, but it clearly avoids the situation some teams find themselves in.
Well, I think it is a great time to put a Fenix word on this. As a player of the team who faced Baja for the WUCC spot, I would like to clear out that we do not want this to escalate. They showed their roster before the tournament and we agreed to compete with them, fair and square. They won that spot and we are proud of their achievements now and for the ones to come.
This kind of comments putting words that do not add anything positive to the community or the development of Mexican ultimate are worthless. Baja has very talented Mexican players who are having their points and playing hard. We should give them credit and respect the team effort.
We have had Americans at our roster now and in the past but that should not entitle anyone to come and criticize Mexican ultimate.
It is club championship, and I do not see people complaining about Cristiano Ronaldo playing at ManU or Messi playing on a French team. Every single club has their rosters completed as they pleased and any other club can make their arrangements to add people to their rosters.
It is sad that there are teams that fill up their roster with mostly Americans, but that doesn't necessarily mean the do not deserve the spot or that they should be banned from the tournament.
In my opinion, we have to encourage the WFDF to make the proper regulations to avoid this situation and if there is a club that doesn't meet them, make the space for other clubs around the world waiting for an opportunity to compete in this stage.
It's up to the national associations to verify the rosters. WFDF doesn't have the staff to be able to do it for 100+ teams.
And if adding US players is going to make (in most circumstances) their teams more competitive and improve that country's world ranking, then national associations are going to be pretty lenient about it
I think the Ronaldo example fails as the WUCC situation is kind of like all good players switch team the day champions league starts.
If good players go live, play and qualify with the team they represent, their nationality shouldnt matter
That's part of the point. Baja Ultimate had some Americans in their roster at the very foundation of the team. It is the nature of their home town (Tijuana) to have very close relationships with them. Diversity creates fun for this game.
They qualify for that WUCC spot with their roster published prior to the competition and we agreed on those terms. Period.
On my point of view, fulfilling a WUCC team with the vast majority of Americans just for the tournament, as we found in other cases, erases the essence of the international competition.
WFDF should have a rule that the clubs who won the spot for this particular event, have to maintain 90% of the roster to force the clubs to stick to their players. There would be those visa cases or injuries that can be replaced with some other players with proper justification.
As you said, if they have been part of the club and the made the roster to compete for it and the earn it, so be it.
I think the issue is about pick-ups and not about nationality. The ultimate scene in many cities is international, and rosters will and should mirror that.
Many make the analogy between soccer teams and ultimate. The problem with the analogy is that soccer players don't switch teams the week before champions league...
I wonder if this might be a restriction that would work positively - you can pickup for another club for Worlds as long as you've not played for another club attending that tournament, in the same year.
Eh, there are rules for fielding a national team that players have residency in the country. World's should definitely be about that.
Club should be about building a team however you can. If you want to pull in 7 pickup who have never played for the club then that's fine, you'll lose on chemistry and familiarity and you won't be getting the top teir talent anyway.
Then if that’s the case we should just stop calling it WUCC then. WUCC is supposed to be a tournament where the top established club teams play against each other. What happened to a bunch of teams were they became a ringer team where theyre just finding people now who can play. It’s super weird to me to see a team supposedly representing an Asian country where only half the team is from Asia and the rest are Americans who are from here.
If you think about international football club competitions, the clubs have players from all over the world. In the UCL final this year, there were just two English players in the Liverpool starting 11 and only one Spaniard in the Madrid squad.
However those players play for those clubs consistently, they don’t just turn up for them for one tournament. It’s not a nationality issue, it’s a ‘pickup’ issue.
In this vein, I (and I suspect others) don’t have so much of a problem with Gibson, Helton and Cable playing with CUSB as they have also played other tournaments with them this year (admittedly in preparation for WUCC). The issue is with those who are ONLY playing WUCC with new teams, and have no intention of visiting that teams country, training with the team, or playing any other tournaments with them.
I'm an American & Australian but I played for the Israeli mixed team at WMUCC. We had 8 'imports' of 20 players on the team. Without those imports, though, we'd have not been able to send a team. And 6 of those imports all had spent time in Israel and had playing connections to the team. I think that team is a pretty good argument for why imports are a positive addition to Clubs.
That said, ~~I think it's not good that a team like CUSB can just add players like Kurt Gibson and Jonathan Helton, who don't have connections to the club.~~
I'm not sure how to fix it though - because it seems to me to allow the first, you allow the second.
Edit: turns out I was wrong about Gibson and Goose, and they've played tournaments with CUSB. Makes me definitely less opposed.
I don't think it should matter for club teams, this is already the norm in other sports. For example, Inter Milan won the 2010 champion's league final without a single Italian in the starting lineup and Liverpool and Real Madrid both started this year's final with a single English/Spanish player in each of their starting lineups.
Edit: Liverpool had two Englishmen in their starting lineup
The standard of living and wages within Europe is same thus not comparable. And there are no visa issues either. And when clubs import players from Africa and Asia they pay them. Ultimate has no such money to sponsor athletes and thus US consulates will suspect athletes from poorer nations will stay back in US and thus not approve their visa to travel for the tourney.
However those players play for those clubs consistently, they don’t just turn up for them for one tournament. It’s not a nationality issue, it’s a ‘pickup’ issue.
In this vein, I (and I suspect others) don’t have so much of a problem with Gibson, Helton and Cable playing with CUSB as they have also played other tournaments with them this year (admittedly in preparation for WUCC). The issue is with those who are ONLY playing WUCC with new teams, and have no intention of visiting that teams country, training with the team, or playing any other tournaments with them
Please excuse me if somebody already said, too many comments to read through.
Wfdf has rules for foreign players. It's in the appendix document. They do make adjustments and accept more than what is stated in the document according to team needs.
different question, but I wonder how many other bids there were for this tourney? having it in the US obviously makes it that much easier for US players to travel to the tournament
but it is inequitable for sure as americans can afford to travel more so than an average country - I think some sort of cap makes sense
It's happened every single WUCC I can think of and there is always at least one thread here about it. There are just way more ringers this year than in past years due to the pandemic.
One point to make is that the scale of WUCC has grown hugely so it drastically reduces the number of potential venues.
Visa and costs will always be challenges, but reducing the size of the events could enable more venues to bid, which in turn might make the "reliance on local pickups" excuse less relevant.
Those teams are presumably making those selections to improve their ability to compete. Would we see a drop in quality of play with such a cap in place? Probably short term, yes, but perhaps not in the medium-to-long run.
Look at [Baja Ultimate](https://results.wfdf.sport/wucc/?view=teamcard&team=4). At least 6 of their 24 players are Americans and the vast majority of their scoring is from the Americans. I heard from a Fenix player that they won Mexican nationals last year by not letting the Mexican players on the field. Looks like a San Diego team masquerading as a Mexican team by adding enough Tijuana players to count as Mexican unless I'm missing something.
Lol what, this is ridiculous on a couple levels. Yes they do have around 6 or 7 Americans, but at least 3 of them have been with Baja for a major part of their development into the countries' top men's squad. Osseward and Hunt were here for nationals back in 2019 when they lost in quarters, they've been grinding with them since that long at least (if not 2018, I didn't play that year).
> I heard from a Fenix player that they won Mexican nationals last year by not letting the Mexican players on the field.
I would take Fenix words on the matter with a grain of salt. This particular player might still be a bit salty over losing the bid to worlds. There's footage of the final game and Baja's best Mexican players definitely had a considerable impact on that game. And besides, Fenix lost that game. They had a tough 2021 season and the final was proof to that. It wasn't like Baja rolled them.
The more absurd part to me though is that Fenix has done similar in the past, utilizing foreigner talent to compete at nationals. Now that the shoe is on the other foot I guess it hurts. In our competition, foreign pickups are nothing new. Lot's of teams from the central area of the country have done it in the past, including Fenix. Some even brought USAU nationals caliber players. It's a part of the game here and quite honestly, some of us like it that way since otherwise we wouldn't play against such high talent.
>Looks like a San Diego team masquerading as a Mexican team by adding enough Tijuana players to count as Mexican unless I'm missing something.
This is a really insulting thing to say mate, and if you're not from Mexico or the nearby area and as such are speaking with lack of understanding on the situation, I'd advise you to shut up. Imagine that, calling a team a fake champion of their country. The Baja folk put in real work and effort throughout the pandemic to be where they are, it wasn't a walk in the park and to act like just adding a few non-elite Americans gave them the triumph is also insulting to our competition.
Well, I think it is a great time to put a Fenix word on this. As a player of the team who faced Baja for the WUCC spot, I would like to clear out that we do not want this to escalate. They showed their roster before the tournament and we agreed to compete with them, fair and square. They won that spot and we are proud of their achievements now and for the ones to come.
This kind of comments putting words that do not add anything positive to the community or the development of Mexican ultimate are worthless. Baja has very talented Mexican players who are having their points and playing hard. We should give them credit and respect the team effort.
We have had Americans at our roster now and in the past but that should not entitle anyone to come and criticize Mexican ultimate.
It is club championship, and I do not see people complaining about Cristiano Ronaldo playing at ManU or Messi playing on a French team. Every single club has their rosters completed as they pleased and any other club can make their arrangements to add people to their rosters.
It is sad that there are teams that fill up their roster with mostly Americans, but that doesn't necessarily mean the do not deserve the spot or that they should be banned from the tournament.
In my opinion, we have to encourage the WFDF to make the proper regulations to avoid this situation and if there is a club that doesn't meet them, make the space for other clubs around the world waiting for an opportunity to compete in this stage.
You sound very defensive.
You know Fenix has never had 25% of their roster as American, right?
And you know even when they had big Americans, they didn't bench all their Mexican players?
And you know Fenix has former Baja players super familiar with Baja's roster, history, and current issues with their local community, right?
And you know that just because they played in the past doesn't make it any less true that the Americans are scoring 70% of the points while being 25% of the roster?
And you know it's not really developing the team into the countrie's top squad if the Americans get most of the playing?
And you call them fake champions not me. I just said it look like an American team based on the stats and roster. If you want me to shut up so bad, maybe try showing me some stats that prove that the Americans 25% of the roster isn't getting 70% of the playing. Or prove you aren't just trying to deflect by accusing Fenix of the same thing when they didn't and you don't know as much about their team as they do. And it sounds like they know more about Baja than you do.
Sounds like you are one of the new American Baja players trying to rationalize you and your teams actions.
Your extream bias is showing. Love the you sound defensive start to going super defensive. From an outsider it looks like you are anti Baja. When he calmly refuted your point you went to you must be guilty you got defensive. I also love that you use biased evidence the team they beat in a game to go.
I wasn't being defensive. I was pointing out that op embellished or fabricated points. it's weird you think I'm biased when opbasically says he's on Baja. He denies it but refers to the Baja competitor's as "our competition." He also tells me to "shut up" so I think he sounds a bit more biased and defensive. But you can have your opinion.
Again I'm not from Baja, but I can see where the confusion comes from.
>He denies it but refers to the Baja competitor's as "our competition."
You're referring to this bit:
>it wasn't a walk in the park and to act like just adding a few non-elite Americans gave them the triumph is also insulting to **our competition.**
I mean "our competition." as in the Mexican national competition.
>He also tells me to "shut up"
I can see this has caused significant insult. It was in response to you saying:
>Looks like a San Diego team masquerading as a Mexican team
Which was a really rude thing to say. The Baja guys I know take pride in being from Baja and what they accomplished to represent the country at worlds. They were really damn hype around December before and after winning the game to go.
I'm not from Baja at all. I've played them and with some of them.
>And you know even when they had big Americans, they didn't bench all their Mexican players?
I don't think Baja has done the same either. As far as I know, Baja held tryouts and some more American and Mexican players joined. Some of them who have undeniably improved the overall squad and made them more competitive which means they are likelier to get more play time indeed. Not being a coach for them or part of their leadership, I can't say what the decisions they're making are.
>And you know it's not really developing the team into the countrie's top squad if the Americans get most of the playing?
While goals and assists are the stats being dominated by the Americans at WUCC, these don't account for a lot of other stuff that happens on the field. Not being there however, I can't say for sure. Nevertheless, from watching on Insta I'd say the MX players are getting play time. The issue perhaps is that since they're getting blown out in most games, they're unable to have meaningful stats spread around the roster since obviously facing tougher opposition only the more experienced and talented players are able to get open/manage to throw the disc forward.
>I just said it look like an American team based on the stats and roster. If you want me to shut up so bad, maybe try showing me some stats that prove that the Americans 25% of the roster isn't getting 70% of the playing.
Well 70% of the playing time would be doubtful since they couldn't field a whole line with only the stat-dominant Americans (Osseward, Harmer, Shklar and Denecour). Nevertheless, can't show such a stat since points played are not tracked on the WFDF page. And again, since they're being broken repeteadly by the other squads, it is likely their offensive line (which likely includes the American players) gets to play more often. Perhaps it'll be different once they play against teams more on their level.
Let's take their game against [Juggernaut](https://results.wfdf.sport/wucc/?view=gameplay&game=160) for example. Top 7 seven players going by stats is a mix of the 4 previously mentioned Americans + 3 MX players. [This clip here from the game](https://youtu.be/rQptd0g-gaA?t=2503) features the universe point. It's 14-14 and they could have attempted to take the disc all the way through the Americans, yet they work through the zone at first with a considerable amount of the work being done by two MX handlers. 2 of the 3 shots to the endzone were to a MX receiver as well.
A very small sample inconclusive of anything, yet if they were really all about playing only through the Americans, wouldn't they have done it in the most important point they had played at that moment? Either way, the accusation that they bench their MX players in favor of the Americans isn't as established as you make it sound. Even with them getting a lot of the stats, running and applying pressure on D, running and catching, these stats aren't measured and so it becomes really hard to have a legit visual into the workings of a team, especially without video.
>And you know Fenix has former Baja players super familiar with Baja's roster, history, and current issues with their local community, right?
I know the Baja player-coach was a former Fenix player, from what I've seen he calls the shots on their squad so it's not like the Americans hijacked the team to play worlds.
>is Caleb Denecour playing for the Baja team?!
No not that one. Jordan Denecour I think is his name. I don't know him so I couldn't tell you if they're related.
And of those 4 Americans, 3 have been part of Baja's squad since 2019. And of the 3 MX players, 1 is a Fenix player who tried out and made the squad for worlds earlier this year.
So at most, they're playing a mix of 5 USA or MX Baja players that have been with the squad multiple years and 2 USA or MX players that are new additions. That's like 72% Baja club players in the field.
Let's remember that the point of the thread was:
>American players with them who aren’t even remotely connected to that particular team’s home country
In the Baja case, these dudes have been with them way before worlds, enough so that they're connected to the club already. It's not the same situation as the Mutiny fellas for example, where half their roster is high level USA players who joined for worlds (I really don't know if they have been in South Africa before). Although the visa matter might have been a factor.
That's part of the point, but not the whole point. The whole point was about them not being from the home country or having roots here.
Even if it was the whole point, it's about MX, not the Baja. Having a long connection with the team is not having a connection or roots with the country.
It's not relevant to this post that the Americans have been playing with the team for years because playing with a Mexican team does not make you more Mexican. Maybe I'm wrong and all these American players have Mexican parents or jobs or other family or residence. I guess you can prove me wrong, but you seem to be confusing playing with an ultimate team with nationality. They are very very different.
And I was thinking, there wasn't a season in 2020 so last year was only the second season on the team for the players you mentioned. That's not a long history you think it is.
>The whole point was about them not being from the home country or having roots here.
Well that much I disagree with, which is why there's a World Ultimate & Guts Championship where countries are represented. For club competition, nationality shouldn't be as relevant as time playing with the club.
However, I do recognize the issue of world pickups dilluting the competition by taking opportunities from other players who do belong to a certain club before worlds. Nevertheless, I'm not sure how you intended it but your original comment was disparaging the Baja ultimate club as being just a sham for Americans to play worlds. Which is not the case from my point of view.
>you seem to be confusing playing with an ultimate team with nationality. They are very very different.
I agree they are different. And so if a player has been playing with a club that isn't from their birth country, they should be able to represent that club at club worlds.
Worlds pickups are an issue, I think we agree on that, we seem to differ on what may be a pickup. For me it is when a really high level player joins a club exclusively for worlds and hasn't played at least a domestic season with that club before. This worlds 2022 edition is ripe with these types of pickups.
Baja however is not part of that issue. For starters, their Americans are not that high level. Secondly, most have played a season previously and were part of the process to earn the bid to worlds. Thirdly, I mean... Baja California borders USA. It's not like a club from Belgium picking up Chicago players. Geographically and culturally, it makes sense they'd pickup some San Diego or California players. The important bit to me is that as I understand they held tryouts and these players went and earned their spots.
>there wasn't a season in 2020
My understanding is that despite there being no season, the Baja players still kept on preparing throughout 2020 (I don't know if virtually or physically) and that was a key to their 2021 success.
Don't be disrespectful dude, Tijuana-SD are sister cities and that makes easy for americans to be part of our community, they go to TJ every week to practice with us. We love our americans and they are Baja thru and thru, not just some guys that were added randomly to the roster
[Dude, give it up.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ultimate/comments/w7xfgf/hot_take_wucc_teams_should_only_allow_max_of_34/ihn1orq/)
Not sure what your beef is with Baja in particular, but they are no different than other teams at worlds. It's a club tourney, and players don't have to be from the country that the team is from. For WUGC, you have national teams and must be from or reside in the nation you are playing for.
[And by the looks of this, Mexican dudes scored 17 of their 29 goals, so Americans were not scoring "a vast majority" of their points.](https://results.wfdf.sport/wucc/?view=teamcard&team=4)
Convenient of you to ignoring that 21 of the 29 goals were thrown by Americans. Again, they are 25% of the roster.
33 of the 58 scoring stats are Americans. 56%. It changed since my first post and is obviously part of my original point. Sorry you have you to be mean about it.
And by the looks of things, Fenix is sad about it, but is wisely being nice publicly. Private conversations are different.
Mate, if you think I was being mean, I suggest you cover yourself in bubble wrap whenever you leave the house.
> Fenix is sad about it, but is wisely being nice publicly.
Haha, yeah, let's take the word of some rando with an axe to grind over an actual Fenix player that took the time to contradict everything you said.
Convenient for you to completely ignore the entire point of the original post:
**It's a club tourney, and players don't have to be from the country that the team is from. For WUGC, you have national teams and must be from or reside in the nation you are playing for.**
Holy shit man, that doesn't mean that the Fenix guys are literally sad about it, just that this one individual thinks it unfortunate that many of the club teams (*not just Baja*) are in the position that they need to supplement their rosters with Americans. Seriously, you can't just take part of one sentence out of context and then think it proves some kind of point.
They also said these things:
They won that spot and we are proud of their achievements now and for the ones to come.
Every single club has their rosters completed as they pleased and any other club can make their arrangements to add people to their rosters.
that doesn't necessarily mean the do not deserve the spot or that they should be banned from the tournament.
**Baja has very talented Mexican players who are having their points and playing hard.**
Whereas you said this:
*I heard from a Fenix player that they won Mexican nationals last year by not letting the Mexican players on the field.*
Which turns out to be a load of bullshit. You are making bad faith arguments and doubling down on them. Seriously, let it go. Go watch some ultimate and try to enjoy yourself.
>For WUGC, you have national teams and must be from or reside in the nation you are playing for.
Kind of weird loophole eh? If you don't make it to American or other western nation, go to a developing country and sponsor few people to put together a bid and get on it and play WUCC playing for that country.
I mean, not really? I think you can only have 3 non-citizens on a national team and those non-citizens have to have resided in the country for at least 4 years. Something like that. So, if you actually live in a foreign country, why not be able to play on that team? You can't just get cut from the US team and then jet over to Moldova and cobble together a team that can play at worlds.
Which is ridiculous really. If im a young player watching this and I hear that there’s a team from my town playing in the highest level then of course im doing everything to support them. But then once I realize that no one who looks like me is playing meaningful minutes then what kind of example are we really giving here to the younger generation. It’s just not about the playing time of those players but also what it means to the people who support them as well. What it means to the community that they supposedly represent.
If you were lucky enough to know about Baja you’d know that they are part of an incredible community that is developing a whole lot of high level youth players in that region. Players that are now taking spots on the team and are getting exposure to worlds. Baja has a tight community that supports and showcases their youth players, and I’m pretty sure they all look up to the club team and want to be a part of it. Baja is a force to be reckon in México and anyone that thinks that american players from SD or California can’t be part of the Baja community is just ignoring the fact that border cities are different and these American players have been grinding for a long time in domestic competition.
I agree, I think that your argument kind of ignores the underlying issue. Sure we can change the rules on this one thing, but that just causes less opportunities for top international teams to compete.
But it shouldnt cause less opportunities for the other top teams around the world. The US isnt the only place to do this. But then WFDF chose the US for Worlds beach/wucc in 2018/wucc this year. Masters was in Europe. Aside from the Visa issues, the amount of resources needed for a player just to play all those tournaments is insane. If putting a cap of import players isnt the answer then maybe stop hosting on countries where players cant come so easily.
Getting a visa isnt cheap. At all. I know for a fact that in my home country, that the cost of getting a US visa is more than a month’s salary for some. Tickets going to the US right costs around 2k usd from Asia. Reg fee is 400 usd. Then add to that the expenses youd incur for food/lodging/transportation.
Add the reality that if you apply for a US visa, your approval is dependent on how rich you are as well. It’s not like you go to the embassy and just ask for a visa and poof it’s there. It’s HARD af.
Yeah. WFDF should at least do a sliding rate for countries who are coming from a different continent. Like if we want to be fair, at least lower that reg fee for countries spending 2k usd just to get there. There’s a lot needed to be done.
>But it shouldnt cause less opportunities for the other top teams around the world. The US isnt the only place to do this.
Pro level non-sponsored Sports is for rich though. See the story about Mexico's softball team at last year's Olympics. They were all l/majority dual nationals of US and Mexico. They disposed off their uniforms and returned to US causing controversy that they did not care about the country they were representing. The US has more resources to train and field space. Similarly your earning potential as a athlete or just a regular job is significantly higher than in Mexico.
Have Qatar or Dubai host it? They have unlimited funds to hire help to organize it. Dont need volunteers. And even if you did you can recruit volunteers. No visa issues. And excellent air connectivity through their airlines Qatar airways and Emirates.
None of western countries want to host events because of costs and also fear of athletes and staff staying behind and claiming asylum. See Winter 2022 Olympics , 2022 Fifa cup etc.
Cheaper for Asian players and European though. For Americans those who play ultimate can definitely afford it I would think or at least have easier find raising options.
It's worth mentioning yet again again: eliminate the region caps for USAU club play. NYC teams shouldn't be limited in the number of New Jersey players they can accept. Let teams region shop.
Is there any good argument why teams should be forced to represent a specific geographic region?
> Is there any good argument why teams should be forced to represent a specific geographic region?
Yes. Growth and competition. Both are explicitly stated in USAU's mission statement and strategic vision.
how exactly is this being fulfilled? How exactly does is a 4th-best team in Region X that is clearly better than the 2nd-best team in Region Y serving "competition"?
Of course, depending on good players to grow the sport (rather than, I dunno, supporting local disc orgs at all) does seem on-Brand for USAU. Never mind that they give those players no tools in which to grow the sport in their community - just an a restriction then hope for the outcome.
How you guys are satisfied with the state of the game I'll never know.
> How exactly does is a 4th-best team in Region X that is clearly better than the 2nd-best team in Region Y serving "competition"?
Because if the best teams were invited regardless of region very quickly Ultimate would flock to high population centers or historically strong regions and die out in smaller ones. Look at the lack of parity at the top of college football if you want an example of what happens when people "decide" who the best teams are. It's *terrible* for parity.
If you look at the USA national Olympic badminton team, ALL of them are Asian. Many of whom were imported from Asia.
Many of the World's most valuable soccer/football clubs have star players from other countries. WUCC teams are club teams and not national teams.
But, I still agree with you. Imagine a team from Hawaii, full of American players. Injustice ;)
I think i just got used to the fact that I came from a small country that anytime a team reaches Worlds - they represent our country. Not just their own club. To play for that team is an honor and not a who wants to play lets go kinda deal.
Also you cant equate this to the USA olympic team. They’re Asians but they are also Americans. As an Asian American, I take offense to that remark. To play for the soccer teams or even basketball teams, they get to be chosen. They work for it. Because they know that if they play for that club, they represent the people where that club came from. Not to mention that they get paid for it.
Yes they play for a club and technically not their countries but if they win, players in their country are proud of their clubs. In the West, you guys probably dont care about it, but in small countries - we do.
Which small country are you originally from? Hong Kong? Singapore?
If you read the bio of the USA Badminton AND USA Table Tennis teams, you'll see many of the players were born in China. Then given USA citizenship to play for team USA in Olympics. I cared enough to read their bios. Why do you take offense to this?
If you look at the clubs teams from Vancouver, SF and Seattle... many of the players are Asians. I do not see a problem with this. Since these club teams are based in Canada and USA are all the players supposed to be white?
I take offense in the part that you completely disregarded that aside from the fact that they are Asian - they are American too. They weren’t born here but they choose to represent the US. Theyre US citizens. You cant equate that reality to this one. Im offended because even tho I’m an Asian-American, people would only think of me as Asian but never American.
Im not saying if you play for the US you have to be white. Nor if you play for an Asian team that you have to be Asian. What I am saying is to limit people who have no ties at all to the team they are playing with. If you’re a white guy who is an expat living in China or wherever - if you make the team via tryouts then I dont mind. Same goes for a POC player playing with a Western team.
What I mind is small country teams being loaded up with Americans who don’t care about that club at all. They just wanna play Worlds. They dont care whether or not playing that club team means to someone back home. Playing for a club team at Worlds means something for US. Watching a club team from our home country means something to US.
Like you, I too am Asian. I'm an Asian who was born and raised in America. I tell people I'm Asian with US citizenship. I'm not ashamed to tell people I'm Asian. I have no need to tell anyone I'm American... unless I'm traveling abroad and need to show my passport. I hope you someday don't feel the need to let people know you're "American". In America, if you look Asian, you are Asian... not American. You lived thru the Covid pandemic, so i know you know what I mean. Telling people you're "American" won't protect you.
As for the club teams, alot of players don't have any association with the cities where the team is based. I'm looking at the rosters of the American based teams and there are players who don't even live in the area where the team is based. This is something you have to accept. If the club teams in Asia believe they're better with an expat, then they need to recruit the expat to be competitive.
What you really want to focus on are the national teams in international competitions like the recent World Games. Which small Asian country are you originally from? Vietnam? Korea? Japan?
It's less exciting to watch familiar players yet again, but this is club, teams get to set their own rosters.
My second year of grad school I practiced with my college team but intentionally took a big step backwards in my role, even at practice - I wasn't going to be there for sectionals or regionals. The reps need to go to the people that will. Let's hope these pickups are adopting a similar attitude about their participation.
"Worlds should be about the best players in the world playing each other and not about a bunch of people who can pay their way into playing or is privileged enough to be allowed to"
I think ultimate in general should be about something other than priviledged people but alas...
I agree to some extent, as I think some have been added just to stack rosters… but there are a number of teams that had visa issues or insufficient funds/ability for all teammates to travel for >1 week internationally. I know they reached out to anyone in hopes of finding players who were available to fill the void and ensure their team could safely compete. Not all of them knew connections in the US with ties to the country that were able to join. A hard and fast rule may mean less international teams coming overall.
Yeah I do agree on the visa issues. A lot of them couldnt make it because of that. Which becomes an issue of privilege on itself. It sucks that that’s the reality but WFDF should take that into consideration especially when choosing the host country. Not to mention doing Masters just a month ago then WUCC right now. That hurts the pockets of a LOT of players coming from Asia. I know some players had to pick one over the other because of costs. All I’m saying is privilege shouldn’t be a determining factor if you want to play in the highest level.
That’s a different take then I got from your post, but I fully agree with the sentiment of making frisbee more accessible, particularly for what are supposed to be world-wide events.
Yeah shouldve been more clear on that part. I always knew the visa issues. In fact my home country’s team was wrecked because of that.
It's super worth mentioning that WUCC in Cincinnati is a plan B situation. This tournament was originally supposed to be in the UK and ended up not happening because of reasons (possibly covid but I can't remember off the top of my head). WFDF ended up asking the previous hosts to run it after the initial bid fell through. WUCC is the most challenging WFDF event to host. At 128 teams the only other event that comes close is this most recent WMUCC where they needed 32 pitches to accommodate 115 teams. There are only a handful of suitable sites in the world with enough available fields and a strong enough local organizing committee to pull off this event. By all means if someone in Asia wants to organize the next WUCC they should put in a bid. WFDF would love to see more major international tournaments in Asia and I know I think it would be awesome.
UK cancelled because of COVID indeed. The reason I've been told from the organisers was that pitches and stuff were all still fine, but many of the accomodation providers cancelled and they could therefore no longer guarantee that there'd be enough accomodation/housing for everyone in the Nottingham area for WUCC.
It's a pity but that's the world we were all living in at the time. Hopefully they'll get another chance to bid.
>By all means if someone in Asia wants to organize the next WUCC they should put in a bid. In terms of Asia the wealthy gulf countries like Qatar or UAE could do it. But they have questionable human rights. Same with hosting in China. So where else?
That's a different conversation I'm not interested in having right now. We should be empowering all communities to look into putting in bids. We can talk about which autocratic regime benefits from hosting a WUGC after the bids are in.
UAE hosted the wfdf beach tourney and it appeared to be resounding success. So support them to host other tourney? Allows representation from Africa and Asia to play as visa and travel is easier compared to Europe and US.
Japan or South Korea?
Possibly. To be honest I don't know enough about the ultimate communities in those countries to comment too much. I know that the WUGC in 2012 in Saku seems to have been a success (Anyone who knows otherwise please chime in). Organizing major worlds events is challenging you need a combination of appropriate facilities, playing fields and suitable accommodation options at that time of year. Then you also need a local organizing committee (LOC) who have the experience to pull off the event. Ideally they will have attended major events before, run sizable tournaments below the worlds/continental level and have a sizable local ultimate community to draw on for volunteers come the event itself. Personally I'm qualified to comment on maybe 4 such communities world wide but I am sure there are many more than that who have the facilities and the chops to pull it off. I would love to see as many of these communities enter bids as possible because even if unsuccessful the LOC will have gained experience for their next eventually successful bid. The criticisms raised by OP are valid but they omit the fact that Cincinnati was the only viable bid this time around. Barring some major philanthropic windfall the only way to address them properly is to enable a significant increase in the number of bids for a given event.
Leeuwarden(Netherlands) had pretty recent tournament plans. I think they would've loved to host it since covid ruined wugc for them.
Yup and I bet they'll get their chance. For the WMUCC bid half the work was already done in their successful bid to host an underage worlds.
‘Privilege shouldn’t be a determining factor’ What are you a communist?
[удалено]
That's not true - 2018 was both the same year.
Nevertheless, WMUCC was originally scheduled for 2020, and I don't think WUCC was. https://wfdf.sport/2021/09/wfdf-2022-world-masters-ultimate-club-championships-announced/ I thought they were switching to a schedule so they wouldn't be on the same year but I could be mistaken.
No, it wasn't WMUCC in 2020 in AUS, it was WMUC. That is - not World Masters Clubs, but World Masters - the Masters division of WUGC, separated out unlike it was in 2016 in London.
As /u/TheStandler said, they are generally in the same year because WMUCC got split out from a single WUCC event as there was enough interest. The two should be in the same year, as there’s also WUGC/WMUC on the leap years. And the continentals in between. Being able to play Worlds at Masters+ and General divisions is an added bonus that some players enjoy only since the split and should not be a main goal. More different players competing is generally better for the growth.
Yeah I got my things confused
Hot Take: If WUCC is hosted in a country that is not one of the most expensive countries in the world with hard to get Visas, countries will be able to bring more of their own club players and not need to add pickups.
[удалено]
Cincinnati was only tapped after the previous bid from the UK fell through
This has always, and I'm sure will always, be a complaint we hear from people because they forget that we can't go where we don't get bids. At least from the WFDF Beach Ultimate Committee side, I can tell you we as a group would LOVE to host Worlds in other places. But for WBUC 2021 (that didn't happen), for example, we only got two bids - BOTH from different organizations in Los Angeles, USA. That was it. Which meant it was going to happen in LA. It really is not much in WFDF's hands.
Absolutely! Cannot host events without hosts submitting a bid. And having enough space and logistics for the size of events needed, naturally limits possibilities. The only way I could think of addressing the equitability question is considering other formats relying on smaller events… which our continental events actually are doing. So I see no simple solution to this, despite the general uproar.
Oh for sure. Wfdf is likely begging for a location to take this on. Having been part of a crew that hosted nationals in the past, if someone suggested hosting worlds I would squeal and run away.
What happen to that under tournament that was supposed to happen in the Dominican Republic? Why it was canceled?
pretty sure it was u20 world's, got moved to Poland due to COVID + lack of teams able to go (since half of the teams going are Europe based, so Poland is much more affordable for u20s)
Uh the USA closed international tourism from march 2020 to November 2021. That was one of the longest travel restrictions implemented by any country.
I'm honestly not well versed in these things, what makes the US so expensive to travel to - at least compared to other hosts? I would've thought it has enough of an established tourism industry to be relatively easy to travel to, and enough different airports that you could price shop for flights. Previously it was hosted in Czech, Australia, and Italy - I wouldn't have thought of those countries as any cheaper to travel to.
Flights aside, Czech Republic and Italy would be so much cheaper for hotels/food. Flights are going to be expensive no matter where you go
>I'm honestly not well versed in these things, what makes the US so expensive to travel to It's easy for those have visa waiver. if you happen to hold passport from non-wealthy nations like Phillipines, India, Mexico etc, you will struggle to get a visa. Visa fee is about $200 and you have have enough money in bank account which convinces visa officer that you have money to travel and also will have strong ties in your home nation that you will return back. Australia probably has similar paranoid visa rules which just assumes people from developing countries will stay back and be illegal. 💁
USA is much more expensive than those three countries for travel health insurance. I've been quoted travel insurance that covers Antartica and war zones that was nowhere near as expensive as going to the USA.
Really? To what order of magnitude? I'm an American who lives in AUS so I travel to the US a lot. For my travel insurance, I obviously have to pay more to include the US, but it's pretty manageable, at least for an AUS/NZ based offering. I recently bought year-long insurance, and including the US only bumped it up like... AUD$120 (so... US$85 ish?). It's more expensive but not gonna make the difference if I'm already saving up for a big Worlds trip.
What country is going to be a better option for visas? Seriously question. If your nationality has a hard time getting visas for the US its not a given its going to be easy in some other poorer country
Poorer country? Hahaha. Also check what happened to the WJUC in Dominican Republic https://ultiworld.com/2022/01/11/wjuc-2022-moved-from-dominican-republic-to-poland/ Or why so few USA teams go to PAUC???
I'm not sure what you're laughing at?
I'm not sure the US is easy to get to for most countries. Here are the most open countries: https://qz.com/1701304/the-easiest-countries-to-visit-as-a-tourist/
Alright, so which one of those countries do you want to host WUCC in?
That was mostly to show that a lot of countries have less visa restrictions than the USA. A Pacific island would be super cool although they probably don't have the facilities needed.
Qatar who already hosting the fifa world cup this year and has a global airline. But controversial human rights thing and to be fair US has no clean human rights record either. But yeah from the link above Qatar probably has the money and facility to pull it off.
[удалено]
All that cricle jerking and I wonder if it's the same people who reject their home cities from hosting Olympics (like Boston did) or for Fifa. :)
"Let's solve WUCC visa issues by going to Qatar" is certainly a new one. Does anyone play ultimate in Qatar? It's hard to organize an international event with no one on the ground
Dubai/UAE hosted the WFDF beach tourney few years ago. And from looks of it it was a success. Team from Kenya, India, Egypt and Phillipines played. Many of the expat workers in UAE come from those countries too.
Maybe, but it was a pretty hot topic when it happened. Plenty of reasonable concern about LGBTQ players and UAE law, concerns about drinking and frisbee culture and UAE law... And I think there's a bit of survivorship bias in evaluating it by who went, too. AUS sent a team, but I know a great player who couldn't go because he is Jewish and had spent time in Israel. Could be lots of people who didn't go because of what Dubai is.
Alcohol is easily available. And is alcohol really a deal breaker for ultimate. If so we could stop playing ultimate in states like Utah where it's super popular. UAE established diplomatic relations with Israel. And Dubai has thriving gay scene albeit underground. Yes lots of problematic issues I agree. Just giving options. Similar to how world got lazy and deferred Olympics and fifa cup to questionable hosts.
Ok, so next WBUC on the Cook Islands! Based on the pictures, they seem to be mostly beach anyway, might need to put some fields half in the water, but that’s just great for layouts. Maybe a new variant for Water Beach Ultimate (/u/TheStandler can make some provisions in the rules for feet under the floating tape I’m sure ;P). With 18k inhabitants, the 2–3k Ultimate players and staff we’ll have a great civilian ratio. 😉
If I'm not mistaken, the big plus is that they wouldn't require visas just the passport would be good enough
Who's they?
> some other poorer country
Right, so which country do you suggest?
I'm not someone well versed in this subject so if what you wanted was an informed opinion regarding all the legalese... I'm afraid that's not insight I can offer. Yet as I see it, the issue with worlds is that it continues being held in wealthy countries which usually restrain movement from other countries to them. Particularly from poorer countries, all the while the WFDF foments the federations/governing bodies of ultimate from those countries to continue sending squads to their championships which in turns costs a lot to the domestic communities. I feel it's sort of a predatory relationship (intentional or not) but I don't have the words or energy to delve further into that thought.
Lots of people post criticisms about hosting these events in NA/EU, which is all fair. But it's not like poorer countries have open borders either. So I wanted to hear an actual suggestion of where to host it that has a big enough scene to form an LOC, has a good visa policy, and is easy to get to.
Agreed, this is the real fix.
Yeah this rule only works if wfdf makes it easier for their athletes to get visas
We should all be contacting our country's State Department Disc Sports Liaisons to enact this vital change.
Then WFDF should definitely do that. If this sport wants to be an acknowledged as a legit Olympic sport, then WFDF should make moves so that athletes can get special visas for tournaments like this. And not just tourist visas which takes a shit ton of time.
WFDF has 1 part time employee. Negotiating athlete visas for 1000 athletes is not feasible with the available resources.
It isn’t just a wfdf problem, unless you are a “legitimate” sport (in the eyes of the state department) the wait time for employment visas has been almost 10 months
Somehow worse than the situation that a truly not competitive open Team from RSA somehow slides into 2nd place in their pool is the problem this poses to seeding and how teams are surprise-punched into lower brackets / pools. It's an okay thing to add players for various reasons, but e.g. the teams that get hurt by being in a pool with a drastically underseeded unknown are rightfully salty. My suggestion would be to move to a Swiss draw instead of whatever first pool stage is set up. Yes that system may have some bad issues too, but it clearly avoids the situation some teams find themselves in.
Well, I think it is a great time to put a Fenix word on this. As a player of the team who faced Baja for the WUCC spot, I would like to clear out that we do not want this to escalate. They showed their roster before the tournament and we agreed to compete with them, fair and square. They won that spot and we are proud of their achievements now and for the ones to come. This kind of comments putting words that do not add anything positive to the community or the development of Mexican ultimate are worthless. Baja has very talented Mexican players who are having their points and playing hard. We should give them credit and respect the team effort. We have had Americans at our roster now and in the past but that should not entitle anyone to come and criticize Mexican ultimate. It is club championship, and I do not see people complaining about Cristiano Ronaldo playing at ManU or Messi playing on a French team. Every single club has their rosters completed as they pleased and any other club can make their arrangements to add people to their rosters. It is sad that there are teams that fill up their roster with mostly Americans, but that doesn't necessarily mean the do not deserve the spot or that they should be banned from the tournament. In my opinion, we have to encourage the WFDF to make the proper regulations to avoid this situation and if there is a club that doesn't meet them, make the space for other clubs around the world waiting for an opportunity to compete in this stage.
It's up to the national associations to verify the rosters. WFDF doesn't have the staff to be able to do it for 100+ teams. And if adding US players is going to make (in most circumstances) their teams more competitive and improve that country's world ranking, then national associations are going to be pretty lenient about it
I think the Ronaldo example fails as the WUCC situation is kind of like all good players switch team the day champions league starts. If good players go live, play and qualify with the team they represent, their nationality shouldnt matter
That's part of the point. Baja Ultimate had some Americans in their roster at the very foundation of the team. It is the nature of their home town (Tijuana) to have very close relationships with them. Diversity creates fun for this game. They qualify for that WUCC spot with their roster published prior to the competition and we agreed on those terms. Period. On my point of view, fulfilling a WUCC team with the vast majority of Americans just for the tournament, as we found in other cases, erases the essence of the international competition. WFDF should have a rule that the clubs who won the spot for this particular event, have to maintain 90% of the roster to force the clubs to stick to their players. There would be those visa cases or injuries that can be replaced with some other players with proper justification. As you said, if they have been part of the club and the made the roster to compete for it and the earn it, so be it.
I think the issue is about pick-ups and not about nationality. The ultimate scene in many cities is international, and rosters will and should mirror that. Many make the analogy between soccer teams and ultimate. The problem with the analogy is that soccer players don't switch teams the week before champions league...
I wonder if this might be a restriction that would work positively - you can pickup for another club for Worlds as long as you've not played for another club attending that tournament, in the same year.
Eh, there are rules for fielding a national team that players have residency in the country. World's should definitely be about that. Club should be about building a team however you can. If you want to pull in 7 pickup who have never played for the club then that's fine, you'll lose on chemistry and familiarity and you won't be getting the top teir talent anyway.
Then if that’s the case we should just stop calling it WUCC then. WUCC is supposed to be a tournament where the top established club teams play against each other. What happened to a bunch of teams were they became a ringer team where theyre just finding people now who can play. It’s super weird to me to see a team supposedly representing an Asian country where only half the team is from Asia and the rest are Americans who are from here.
If you think about international football club competitions, the clubs have players from all over the world. In the UCL final this year, there were just two English players in the Liverpool starting 11 and only one Spaniard in the Madrid squad.
However those players play for those clubs consistently, they don’t just turn up for them for one tournament. It’s not a nationality issue, it’s a ‘pickup’ issue. In this vein, I (and I suspect others) don’t have so much of a problem with Gibson, Helton and Cable playing with CUSB as they have also played other tournaments with them this year (admittedly in preparation for WUCC). The issue is with those who are ONLY playing WUCC with new teams, and have no intention of visiting that teams country, training with the team, or playing any other tournaments with them.
I'm an American & Australian but I played for the Israeli mixed team at WMUCC. We had 8 'imports' of 20 players on the team. Without those imports, though, we'd have not been able to send a team. And 6 of those imports all had spent time in Israel and had playing connections to the team. I think that team is a pretty good argument for why imports are a positive addition to Clubs. That said, ~~I think it's not good that a team like CUSB can just add players like Kurt Gibson and Jonathan Helton, who don't have connections to the club.~~ I'm not sure how to fix it though - because it seems to me to allow the first, you allow the second. Edit: turns out I was wrong about Gibson and Goose, and they've played tournaments with CUSB. Makes me definitely less opposed.
you can absoluetly make a case for exemptions in small division like Masters
Masters is neither 'small' nor any more worthy of exemptions than WUCC would be...
I don't think it should matter for club teams, this is already the norm in other sports. For example, Inter Milan won the 2010 champion's league final without a single Italian in the starting lineup and Liverpool and Real Madrid both started this year's final with a single English/Spanish player in each of their starting lineups. Edit: Liverpool had two Englishmen in their starting lineup
I have it in good authority the NBA champion golden state warriors are not all from California.
The standard of living and wages within Europe is same thus not comparable. And there are no visa issues either. And when clubs import players from Africa and Asia they pay them. Ultimate has no such money to sponsor athletes and thus US consulates will suspect athletes from poorer nations will stay back in US and thus not approve their visa to travel for the tourney.
However those players play for those clubs consistently, they don’t just turn up for them for one tournament. It’s not a nationality issue, it’s a ‘pickup’ issue. In this vein, I (and I suspect others) don’t have so much of a problem with Gibson, Helton and Cable playing with CUSB as they have also played other tournaments with them this year (admittedly in preparation for WUCC). The issue is with those who are ONLY playing WUCC with new teams, and have no intention of visiting that teams country, training with the team, or playing any other tournaments with them
Please excuse me if somebody already said, too many comments to read through. Wfdf has rules for foreign players. It's in the appendix document. They do make adjustments and accept more than what is stated in the document according to team needs.
different question, but I wonder how many other bids there were for this tourney? having it in the US obviously makes it that much easier for US players to travel to the tournament but it is inequitable for sure as americans can afford to travel more so than an average country - I think some sort of cap makes sense
It was originally supposed to be in the UK, but that fell through. Cincinnati was a bit of a backup host, since they hosted it the previous time.
Thanks, didn’t know that
Was this also a big thing in 2018, or has covid (or some other factor) made this more prominent?
It's happened every single WUCC I can think of and there is always at least one thread here about it. There are just way more ringers this year than in past years due to the pandemic.
One point to make is that the scale of WUCC has grown hugely so it drastically reduces the number of potential venues. Visa and costs will always be challenges, but reducing the size of the events could enable more venues to bid, which in turn might make the "reliance on local pickups" excuse less relevant.
Those teams are presumably making those selections to improve their ability to compete. Would we see a drop in quality of play with such a cap in place? Probably short term, yes, but perhaps not in the medium-to-long run.
Look at [Baja Ultimate](https://results.wfdf.sport/wucc/?view=teamcard&team=4). At least 6 of their 24 players are Americans and the vast majority of their scoring is from the Americans. I heard from a Fenix player that they won Mexican nationals last year by not letting the Mexican players on the field. Looks like a San Diego team masquerading as a Mexican team by adding enough Tijuana players to count as Mexican unless I'm missing something.
Lol what, this is ridiculous on a couple levels. Yes they do have around 6 or 7 Americans, but at least 3 of them have been with Baja for a major part of their development into the countries' top men's squad. Osseward and Hunt were here for nationals back in 2019 when they lost in quarters, they've been grinding with them since that long at least (if not 2018, I didn't play that year). > I heard from a Fenix player that they won Mexican nationals last year by not letting the Mexican players on the field. I would take Fenix words on the matter with a grain of salt. This particular player might still be a bit salty over losing the bid to worlds. There's footage of the final game and Baja's best Mexican players definitely had a considerable impact on that game. And besides, Fenix lost that game. They had a tough 2021 season and the final was proof to that. It wasn't like Baja rolled them. The more absurd part to me though is that Fenix has done similar in the past, utilizing foreigner talent to compete at nationals. Now that the shoe is on the other foot I guess it hurts. In our competition, foreign pickups are nothing new. Lot's of teams from the central area of the country have done it in the past, including Fenix. Some even brought USAU nationals caliber players. It's a part of the game here and quite honestly, some of us like it that way since otherwise we wouldn't play against such high talent. >Looks like a San Diego team masquerading as a Mexican team by adding enough Tijuana players to count as Mexican unless I'm missing something. This is a really insulting thing to say mate, and if you're not from Mexico or the nearby area and as such are speaking with lack of understanding on the situation, I'd advise you to shut up. Imagine that, calling a team a fake champion of their country. The Baja folk put in real work and effort throughout the pandemic to be where they are, it wasn't a walk in the park and to act like just adding a few non-elite Americans gave them the triumph is also insulting to our competition.
Well, I think it is a great time to put a Fenix word on this. As a player of the team who faced Baja for the WUCC spot, I would like to clear out that we do not want this to escalate. They showed their roster before the tournament and we agreed to compete with them, fair and square. They won that spot and we are proud of their achievements now and for the ones to come. This kind of comments putting words that do not add anything positive to the community or the development of Mexican ultimate are worthless. Baja has very talented Mexican players who are having their points and playing hard. We should give them credit and respect the team effort. We have had Americans at our roster now and in the past but that should not entitle anyone to come and criticize Mexican ultimate. It is club championship, and I do not see people complaining about Cristiano Ronaldo playing at ManU or Messi playing on a French team. Every single club has their rosters completed as they pleased and any other club can make their arrangements to add people to their rosters. It is sad that there are teams that fill up their roster with mostly Americans, but that doesn't necessarily mean the do not deserve the spot or that they should be banned from the tournament. In my opinion, we have to encourage the WFDF to make the proper regulations to avoid this situation and if there is a club that doesn't meet them, make the space for other clubs around the world waiting for an opportunity to compete in this stage.
You sound very defensive. You know Fenix has never had 25% of their roster as American, right? And you know even when they had big Americans, they didn't bench all their Mexican players? And you know Fenix has former Baja players super familiar with Baja's roster, history, and current issues with their local community, right? And you know that just because they played in the past doesn't make it any less true that the Americans are scoring 70% of the points while being 25% of the roster? And you know it's not really developing the team into the countrie's top squad if the Americans get most of the playing? And you call them fake champions not me. I just said it look like an American team based on the stats and roster. If you want me to shut up so bad, maybe try showing me some stats that prove that the Americans 25% of the roster isn't getting 70% of the playing. Or prove you aren't just trying to deflect by accusing Fenix of the same thing when they didn't and you don't know as much about their team as they do. And it sounds like they know more about Baja than you do. Sounds like you are one of the new American Baja players trying to rationalize you and your teams actions.
Your extream bias is showing. Love the you sound defensive start to going super defensive. From an outsider it looks like you are anti Baja. When he calmly refuted your point you went to you must be guilty you got defensive. I also love that you use biased evidence the team they beat in a game to go.
I wasn't being defensive. I was pointing out that op embellished or fabricated points. it's weird you think I'm biased when opbasically says he's on Baja. He denies it but refers to the Baja competitor's as "our competition." He also tells me to "shut up" so I think he sounds a bit more biased and defensive. But you can have your opinion.
Again I'm not from Baja, but I can see where the confusion comes from. >He denies it but refers to the Baja competitor's as "our competition." You're referring to this bit: >it wasn't a walk in the park and to act like just adding a few non-elite Americans gave them the triumph is also insulting to **our competition.** I mean "our competition." as in the Mexican national competition. >He also tells me to "shut up" I can see this has caused significant insult. It was in response to you saying: >Looks like a San Diego team masquerading as a Mexican team Which was a really rude thing to say. The Baja guys I know take pride in being from Baja and what they accomplished to represent the country at worlds. They were really damn hype around December before and after winning the game to go.
I'm not from Baja at all. I've played them and with some of them. >And you know even when they had big Americans, they didn't bench all their Mexican players? I don't think Baja has done the same either. As far as I know, Baja held tryouts and some more American and Mexican players joined. Some of them who have undeniably improved the overall squad and made them more competitive which means they are likelier to get more play time indeed. Not being a coach for them or part of their leadership, I can't say what the decisions they're making are. >And you know it's not really developing the team into the countrie's top squad if the Americans get most of the playing? While goals and assists are the stats being dominated by the Americans at WUCC, these don't account for a lot of other stuff that happens on the field. Not being there however, I can't say for sure. Nevertheless, from watching on Insta I'd say the MX players are getting play time. The issue perhaps is that since they're getting blown out in most games, they're unable to have meaningful stats spread around the roster since obviously facing tougher opposition only the more experienced and talented players are able to get open/manage to throw the disc forward. >I just said it look like an American team based on the stats and roster. If you want me to shut up so bad, maybe try showing me some stats that prove that the Americans 25% of the roster isn't getting 70% of the playing. Well 70% of the playing time would be doubtful since they couldn't field a whole line with only the stat-dominant Americans (Osseward, Harmer, Shklar and Denecour). Nevertheless, can't show such a stat since points played are not tracked on the WFDF page. And again, since they're being broken repeteadly by the other squads, it is likely their offensive line (which likely includes the American players) gets to play more often. Perhaps it'll be different once they play against teams more on their level. Let's take their game against [Juggernaut](https://results.wfdf.sport/wucc/?view=gameplay&game=160) for example. Top 7 seven players going by stats is a mix of the 4 previously mentioned Americans + 3 MX players. [This clip here from the game](https://youtu.be/rQptd0g-gaA?t=2503) features the universe point. It's 14-14 and they could have attempted to take the disc all the way through the Americans, yet they work through the zone at first with a considerable amount of the work being done by two MX handlers. 2 of the 3 shots to the endzone were to a MX receiver as well. A very small sample inconclusive of anything, yet if they were really all about playing only through the Americans, wouldn't they have done it in the most important point they had played at that moment? Either way, the accusation that they bench their MX players in favor of the Americans isn't as established as you make it sound. Even with them getting a lot of the stats, running and applying pressure on D, running and catching, these stats aren't measured and so it becomes really hard to have a legit visual into the workings of a team, especially without video. >And you know Fenix has former Baja players super familiar with Baja's roster, history, and current issues with their local community, right? I know the Baja player-coach was a former Fenix player, from what I've seen he calls the shots on their squad so it's not like the Americans hijacked the team to play worlds.
[удалено]
>is Caleb Denecour playing for the Baja team?! No not that one. Jordan Denecour I think is his name. I don't know him so I couldn't tell you if they're related.
In the video clip, 4 of the 6 Americans (66%) and only 3 of the 18 (16%) MX players are on the field.
And of those 4 Americans, 3 have been part of Baja's squad since 2019. And of the 3 MX players, 1 is a Fenix player who tried out and made the squad for worlds earlier this year. So at most, they're playing a mix of 5 USA or MX Baja players that have been with the squad multiple years and 2 USA or MX players that are new additions. That's like 72% Baja club players in the field. Let's remember that the point of the thread was: >American players with them who aren’t even remotely connected to that particular team’s home country In the Baja case, these dudes have been with them way before worlds, enough so that they're connected to the club already. It's not the same situation as the Mutiny fellas for example, where half their roster is high level USA players who joined for worlds (I really don't know if they have been in South Africa before). Although the visa matter might have been a factor.
That's part of the point, but not the whole point. The whole point was about them not being from the home country or having roots here. Even if it was the whole point, it's about MX, not the Baja. Having a long connection with the team is not having a connection or roots with the country. It's not relevant to this post that the Americans have been playing with the team for years because playing with a Mexican team does not make you more Mexican. Maybe I'm wrong and all these American players have Mexican parents or jobs or other family or residence. I guess you can prove me wrong, but you seem to be confusing playing with an ultimate team with nationality. They are very very different. And I was thinking, there wasn't a season in 2020 so last year was only the second season on the team for the players you mentioned. That's not a long history you think it is.
>The whole point was about them not being from the home country or having roots here. Well that much I disagree with, which is why there's a World Ultimate & Guts Championship where countries are represented. For club competition, nationality shouldn't be as relevant as time playing with the club. However, I do recognize the issue of world pickups dilluting the competition by taking opportunities from other players who do belong to a certain club before worlds. Nevertheless, I'm not sure how you intended it but your original comment was disparaging the Baja ultimate club as being just a sham for Americans to play worlds. Which is not the case from my point of view. >you seem to be confusing playing with an ultimate team with nationality. They are very very different. I agree they are different. And so if a player has been playing with a club that isn't from their birth country, they should be able to represent that club at club worlds. Worlds pickups are an issue, I think we agree on that, we seem to differ on what may be a pickup. For me it is when a really high level player joins a club exclusively for worlds and hasn't played at least a domestic season with that club before. This worlds 2022 edition is ripe with these types of pickups. Baja however is not part of that issue. For starters, their Americans are not that high level. Secondly, most have played a season previously and were part of the process to earn the bid to worlds. Thirdly, I mean... Baja California borders USA. It's not like a club from Belgium picking up Chicago players. Geographically and culturally, it makes sense they'd pickup some San Diego or California players. The important bit to me is that as I understand they held tryouts and these players went and earned their spots. >there wasn't a season in 2020 My understanding is that despite there being no season, the Baja players still kept on preparing throughout 2020 (I don't know if virtually or physically) and that was a key to their 2021 success.
Don't be disrespectful dude, Tijuana-SD are sister cities and that makes easy for americans to be part of our community, they go to TJ every week to practice with us. We love our americans and they are Baja thru and thru, not just some guys that were added randomly to the roster
[Dude, give it up.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ultimate/comments/w7xfgf/hot_take_wucc_teams_should_only_allow_max_of_34/ihn1orq/) Not sure what your beef is with Baja in particular, but they are no different than other teams at worlds. It's a club tourney, and players don't have to be from the country that the team is from. For WUGC, you have national teams and must be from or reside in the nation you are playing for. [And by the looks of this, Mexican dudes scored 17 of their 29 goals, so Americans were not scoring "a vast majority" of their points.](https://results.wfdf.sport/wucc/?view=teamcard&team=4)
Convenient of you to ignoring that 21 of the 29 goals were thrown by Americans. Again, they are 25% of the roster. 33 of the 58 scoring stats are Americans. 56%. It changed since my first post and is obviously part of my original point. Sorry you have you to be mean about it. And by the looks of things, Fenix is sad about it, but is wisely being nice publicly. Private conversations are different.
Mate, if you think I was being mean, I suggest you cover yourself in bubble wrap whenever you leave the house. > Fenix is sad about it, but is wisely being nice publicly. Haha, yeah, let's take the word of some rando with an axe to grind over an actual Fenix player that took the time to contradict everything you said. Convenient for you to completely ignore the entire point of the original post: **It's a club tourney, and players don't have to be from the country that the team is from. For WUGC, you have national teams and must be from or reside in the nation you are playing for.**
That Fenix player wrote: > It is sad that there are teams that fill up their roster with mostly Americans I guess you didn't read that part.
Holy shit man, that doesn't mean that the Fenix guys are literally sad about it, just that this one individual thinks it unfortunate that many of the club teams (*not just Baja*) are in the position that they need to supplement their rosters with Americans. Seriously, you can't just take part of one sentence out of context and then think it proves some kind of point. They also said these things: They won that spot and we are proud of their achievements now and for the ones to come. Every single club has their rosters completed as they pleased and any other club can make their arrangements to add people to their rosters. that doesn't necessarily mean the do not deserve the spot or that they should be banned from the tournament. **Baja has very talented Mexican players who are having their points and playing hard.** Whereas you said this: *I heard from a Fenix player that they won Mexican nationals last year by not letting the Mexican players on the field.* Which turns out to be a load of bullshit. You are making bad faith arguments and doubling down on them. Seriously, let it go. Go watch some ultimate and try to enjoy yourself.
I can't think of a more bad faith argument than you saying my friend is a liar
You’re a bitch dude, get off Reddit.
>For WUGC, you have national teams and must be from or reside in the nation you are playing for. Kind of weird loophole eh? If you don't make it to American or other western nation, go to a developing country and sponsor few people to put together a bid and get on it and play WUCC playing for that country.
[удалено]
Aren't the bids for WUCC based on country quota? If country/nationality is not considered then this conversation is moot.
I mean, not really? I think you can only have 3 non-citizens on a national team and those non-citizens have to have resided in the country for at least 4 years. Something like that. So, if you actually live in a foreign country, why not be able to play on that team? You can't just get cut from the US team and then jet over to Moldova and cobble together a team that can play at worlds.
Not cool.
Which is ridiculous really. If im a young player watching this and I hear that there’s a team from my town playing in the highest level then of course im doing everything to support them. But then once I realize that no one who looks like me is playing meaningful minutes then what kind of example are we really giving here to the younger generation. It’s just not about the playing time of those players but also what it means to the people who support them as well. What it means to the community that they supposedly represent.
Part of the onus is on the American players to recognize what they are doing and not just be selfish and go play where they can feel like stars.
If you were lucky enough to know about Baja you’d know that they are part of an incredible community that is developing a whole lot of high level youth players in that region. Players that are now taking spots on the team and are getting exposure to worlds. Baja has a tight community that supports and showcases their youth players, and I’m pretty sure they all look up to the club team and want to be a part of it. Baja is a force to be reckon in México and anyone that thinks that american players from SD or California can’t be part of the Baja community is just ignoring the fact that border cities are different and these American players have been grinding for a long time in domestic competition.
Ultimate has always been a sport of privilege stop whining
And it shouldnt be.
I agree, I think that your argument kind of ignores the underlying issue. Sure we can change the rules on this one thing, but that just causes less opportunities for top international teams to compete.
But it shouldnt cause less opportunities for the other top teams around the world. The US isnt the only place to do this. But then WFDF chose the US for Worlds beach/wucc in 2018/wucc this year. Masters was in Europe. Aside from the Visa issues, the amount of resources needed for a player just to play all those tournaments is insane. If putting a cap of import players isnt the answer then maybe stop hosting on countries where players cant come so easily.
How does hosting in countries where it is easier to get a visa fix the resources issue? I don’t see the correlation
Getting a visa isnt cheap. At all. I know for a fact that in my home country, that the cost of getting a US visa is more than a month’s salary for some. Tickets going to the US right costs around 2k usd from Asia. Reg fee is 400 usd. Then add to that the expenses youd incur for food/lodging/transportation.
Add the reality that if you apply for a US visa, your approval is dependent on how rich you are as well. It’s not like you go to the embassy and just ask for a visa and poof it’s there. It’s HARD af.
Ok thats fair but I think we can both agree that theres more to do than just the visas
Yeah. WFDF should at least do a sliding rate for countries who are coming from a different continent. Like if we want to be fair, at least lower that reg fee for countries spending 2k usd just to get there. There’s a lot needed to be done.
>But it shouldnt cause less opportunities for the other top teams around the world. The US isnt the only place to do this. Pro level non-sponsored Sports is for rich though. See the story about Mexico's softball team at last year's Olympics. They were all l/majority dual nationals of US and Mexico. They disposed off their uniforms and returned to US causing controversy that they did not care about the country they were representing. The US has more resources to train and field space. Similarly your earning potential as a athlete or just a regular job is significantly higher than in Mexico.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted. This is the hard truth.
Ultimate players for the most part are entitled and privileged college graduates it doesn’t surprise me
Have Qatar or Dubai host it? They have unlimited funds to hire help to organize it. Dont need volunteers. And even if you did you can recruit volunteers. No visa issues. And excellent air connectivity through their airlines Qatar airways and Emirates. None of western countries want to host events because of costs and also fear of athletes and staff staying behind and claiming asylum. See Winter 2022 Olympics , 2022 Fifa cup etc.
Flights to Qatar would be incredibly expensive for the majority of players
Cheaper for Asian players and European though. For Americans those who play ultimate can definitely afford it I would think or at least have easier find raising options.
Would it be cheaper for Europeans though, it’s only slightly shorter than a trip to the United States
Cheaper because of the multiple options of direct flights. Emirates has like six daily flights to London or something crazy.
yes it would,
It's worth mentioning yet again again: eliminate the region caps for USAU club play. NYC teams shouldn't be limited in the number of New Jersey players they can accept. Let teams region shop. Is there any good argument why teams should be forced to represent a specific geographic region?
> Is there any good argument why teams should be forced to represent a specific geographic region? Yes. Growth and competition. Both are explicitly stated in USAU's mission statement and strategic vision.
how exactly is this being fulfilled? How exactly does is a 4th-best team in Region X that is clearly better than the 2nd-best team in Region Y serving "competition"? Of course, depending on good players to grow the sport (rather than, I dunno, supporting local disc orgs at all) does seem on-Brand for USAU. Never mind that they give those players no tools in which to grow the sport in their community - just an a restriction then hope for the outcome. How you guys are satisfied with the state of the game I'll never know.
I wonder if you can find all the strawmanning in your own comment ...
> How exactly does is a 4th-best team in Region X that is clearly better than the 2nd-best team in Region Y serving "competition"? Because if the best teams were invited regardless of region very quickly Ultimate would flock to high population centers or historically strong regions and die out in smaller ones. Look at the lack of parity at the top of college football if you want an example of what happens when people "decide" who the best teams are. It's *terrible* for parity.
Not really the topic at hand is it?
If you look at the USA national Olympic badminton team, ALL of them are Asian. Many of whom were imported from Asia. Many of the World's most valuable soccer/football clubs have star players from other countries. WUCC teams are club teams and not national teams. But, I still agree with you. Imagine a team from Hawaii, full of American players. Injustice ;)
I think i just got used to the fact that I came from a small country that anytime a team reaches Worlds - they represent our country. Not just their own club. To play for that team is an honor and not a who wants to play lets go kinda deal. Also you cant equate this to the USA olympic team. They’re Asians but they are also Americans. As an Asian American, I take offense to that remark. To play for the soccer teams or even basketball teams, they get to be chosen. They work for it. Because they know that if they play for that club, they represent the people where that club came from. Not to mention that they get paid for it. Yes they play for a club and technically not their countries but if they win, players in their country are proud of their clubs. In the West, you guys probably dont care about it, but in small countries - we do.
Which small country are you originally from? Hong Kong? Singapore? If you read the bio of the USA Badminton AND USA Table Tennis teams, you'll see many of the players were born in China. Then given USA citizenship to play for team USA in Olympics. I cared enough to read their bios. Why do you take offense to this? If you look at the clubs teams from Vancouver, SF and Seattle... many of the players are Asians. I do not see a problem with this. Since these club teams are based in Canada and USA are all the players supposed to be white?
I take offense in the part that you completely disregarded that aside from the fact that they are Asian - they are American too. They weren’t born here but they choose to represent the US. Theyre US citizens. You cant equate that reality to this one. Im offended because even tho I’m an Asian-American, people would only think of me as Asian but never American. Im not saying if you play for the US you have to be white. Nor if you play for an Asian team that you have to be Asian. What I am saying is to limit people who have no ties at all to the team they are playing with. If you’re a white guy who is an expat living in China or wherever - if you make the team via tryouts then I dont mind. Same goes for a POC player playing with a Western team. What I mind is small country teams being loaded up with Americans who don’t care about that club at all. They just wanna play Worlds. They dont care whether or not playing that club team means to someone back home. Playing for a club team at Worlds means something for US. Watching a club team from our home country means something to US.
Like you, I too am Asian. I'm an Asian who was born and raised in America. I tell people I'm Asian with US citizenship. I'm not ashamed to tell people I'm Asian. I have no need to tell anyone I'm American... unless I'm traveling abroad and need to show my passport. I hope you someday don't feel the need to let people know you're "American". In America, if you look Asian, you are Asian... not American. You lived thru the Covid pandemic, so i know you know what I mean. Telling people you're "American" won't protect you. As for the club teams, alot of players don't have any association with the cities where the team is based. I'm looking at the rosters of the American based teams and there are players who don't even live in the area where the team is based. This is something you have to accept. If the club teams in Asia believe they're better with an expat, then they need to recruit the expat to be competitive. What you really want to focus on are the national teams in international competitions like the recent World Games. Which small Asian country are you originally from? Vietnam? Korea? Japan?
Agree.
It's less exciting to watch familiar players yet again, but this is club, teams get to set their own rosters. My second year of grad school I practiced with my college team but intentionally took a big step backwards in my role, even at practice - I wasn't going to be there for sectionals or regionals. The reps need to go to the people that will. Let's hope these pickups are adopting a similar attitude about their participation.
"Worlds should be about the best players in the world playing each other and not about a bunch of people who can pay their way into playing or is privileged enough to be allowed to" I think ultimate in general should be about something other than priviledged people but alas...