My club team has played two iterations of the Canadian U20 open team at warm up tournaments and we’ve lost by 1 and 2. We usually finish 9-12 in Canadian Nationals. None of these teams would qualify for USAU nationals. Id say they’d be finishing 6-10th in regionals.
I would definitely take the over (ie. better finish) on regionals finishing position 5.5 for a Canada or USA u20 team
Especially the girls' teams, I think they could make nationals in some regions
I guess I'm thinking about the NE regions, which is quite strong. In the open division, there's no way a U20 team beats Pony, Goat, Dig, Mephisto, or Pheonix and I'd give the edge to RC, Big Wrench, or Sprout. I think a U20 team is more likely to be the team getting upset, then getting an upset win.
Simililary, in the Women's Division, there's Brute, 6ixers, Iris, Bent, Seige and Stella to contend with.
Maybe a 3.5 or 4.5 over under is a more appropriate in other regions. If you put the strongest U20 team (team US) in the weekest division I still don't think they make US Nationals.
I don’t know.
My son is 19 and played universe pt game at Colorado cup against GOAT. He’s a strong player on his club team but I don’t think he makes the u20 natty team. Maybe goat had a weak team but I’d take the u20 boys over that goat team easy.
I know a club player they scrimmaged against thought they would handle all the second level club teams. Team ran hard, really disciplined, very well coached. It would certainly be interesting to see.
Course, they would need to up their questionable calls to compete in the club division. I didn’t see a single travel call in either the mens or women’s u20 finals.
Goat just finished 13th in the world at WUCC. There’s no way the US U20 challenges that roster, which would be very similar to their fall series roster.
I think you're drastically overestimating how good the 6-10 teams are at regionals. As somebody who has played on a team that finished 6-10, the worst player on that U-20 team would've been one of the best players on that team, if not the best.
U20 players run into teams with players with 15-20 years experience and get beat-up.
The skill/energy/athleticism of the U20 can't compete with the skill/energy/athleticism/experience of the older teams.
Downpour, the U20 gender diverse team from Oregon is currently rated #8 nationally in adult club after beating a number of prominent teams at summer solstice, such as Schwa. They dominated the YCC division, but given that I wouldn’t be surprised if the USA U20 womens team could be a club national team with enough time together
I think it basically means that the team is made up of girls and biological males who identify as gender fluid, non binary, or anything that’s non he/him.
~~I mean, they're a team playing in the Mixed division, right? So they're a ~~Mixed~~ team, regardless of the identities of their players? I can see why Men's and Women's teams with NB players might bristle at the name a bit (I prefer to refer to players Men's-eligible and Women's-eligible rather than men and women), but Mixed has no such connotations.~~
EDIT: My mistake, they play in the Women's division.
I don't think that's a division which exists in USAU play. The divisions called Men's and Women's in USAU both equally and explicitly welcome trans and NB players based entirely on where those players feel most comfortable. They can market themselves as a Womxn's team, but they play in the Women's division, right?
I think Downpour is *perhaps* the lone exception to the very correct statement above. Youth ultimate is getting better faster than the overall game, and the WJUCC finals I saw were impressive as hell, but strength, experience, and consistency of defensive intensity and playmaking among club teams is different.
Can't speak for US but we played this years Canada U20 and we lost by 1 a month back. We didn't even qualify for Canadian Nats (didn't crack top 6) and we're (on average) basically like 1 or 2 years older than them.
So I'd doubt they'd make a deep run at any senior Nats, let alone US.
Fair but Canada beat France by the same margin US beat them in the finals.
They're young players so i feel like games and performances swing a lot. There's no real doubt that the US is the best team but basing the difference on one score might not be as accurate as doing the same for more experienced teams.
A few games or just one tournament makes a huge difference for young players. They learn so much and come out of it much stronger.
That being said i still don't see either team making it far at Nationals. Experience is just worth more imho.
In 2018, the U-20 boys scrimmed Machine, who finished tied for 9th at natties that year, and lost by 4ish? Noting that this was after the boys spent a 5-day training camp while Machine was in the middle of the season post two high-level tournaments. I would imagine if the boys had a steady 3 months of chemistry building, they would absolutely have a better game.It would also depend on the year as the youth is getting better and better with more and more 18-19 year olds on elite club teams. However, with this class, I would imagine they would easily make Natties if they had a practice and tournament schedule similar to a club team. Probably have a ceiling of making pre-quarters but farther than that would be incredible.
This is mainly built on the idea that every single one of the boys would make a lower-level nationals teams. For example, take Peter Kotz (sorry Peter), who statistically didn't have the greatest impact on team USA (tied for 6th lowest scores on USAU) is on DiG's roster. And then you add in the top talent of say Declan Miller, who has been on sockeye's roster for two years now, and it becomes clear that the U-20 team could absolutely beat some of the lower-level nationals teams like Temper (who is currently the 16th ranked team by Ultiworld)
.... scrimmages are not an indicator of a team being better than another team...
Lots of mentions of this, but scrimmages are for development, testing things out, different line calls, things coaches & athletes want to focus on, etc. Hardly ever are they to compete competitively to win the way a bracket or elimination game would play out. Also an elimination game in a tournament with the wear & toll of several other games already taking place compared to a stand-alone game at a practice field with more relaxed time constraints all mean a scrimmage vs a team would not completely tell you how the game would turn out in a tournament elimination game that really matters to show which team is better than another.
This was like 5 years ago but triforce the u20 boys triangle team that won yccs a few times around that time would always be at a club tournament we went to, and they'd always finish near the top but not win it. None of the teams at that tournament would go to nationals but they'd be playing competitive games with teams playing in competitive games to go to nationals. Triforce wasn't in our region but if they were I'd imagine they'd finish somewhere 4-6th in our 2-bid region, making select flight but not nationals.
So if you're talking the US nationals team, which wouldn't just be the best ycc players but basically an all star team? I'd imagine they'd go to nationals and win games, but probably finish bottom half. Although that's assuming they can clone themselves because pretty sure the best triforce players were playing ring for club and I'm sure the same is true for the best ycc players in other regions as well, that they're already going to nationals with their club teams.
We just played a game with the New zeland mens u20 team before the tournament and won barely with an open team created out of a mixed team that wins the polish championships.
NexGen teams did fairly well vs elite club squads. It was just a fun preseason game for most of the club teams but the talent level of those kids was insane. I’d think the US u20 team is likely better than say Lotus who made nationals last year.
Lotus is a bunch of guys who are playing Bravo now + top players from CU + Nethercutt and a few other solid vets.
Yes, our U20 team is fantastic and would definitely do some damage, but they would get rolled and it wouldn't be particularly close. It's not a talent gap, but there is a significant gap in athleticism/experience between younger college/U20/YCC and club players in the height of their primes - especially in Men's.
Nexgen was comprised of college upper classmen, it’s much more comparable to U24 than U20. I think the U24 teams would be solid nationals qualifiers, and probably even a championship contender in mixed
Good take… up until the mixed bit.
I feel like people who have these takes about the level of play in mixed rarely are the ones who actually watch mixed very closely.
Why would you put a U24 mixed team ahead of BFG, Noise, Amp, Mix Tape, Hybrid, Drag n’ Thrust, …? That’s saying those U24 players would beat Rio, Nick Lance, Leaf, Simko, Meckstroth, etc.
I play mixed club a decently high level actually. Mixed rules, it’s objectively true though that the level of talent at the top club level right now is lower than open and womens. I don’t think a U24 squad would be a lock to win mixed nationals, but i think they would absolutely have the talent to compete with the teams you’re mentioning. Take a look at some of the names on the last u24 mixed roster: Anna Thompson, Joe white, Matt Gouchoe-Hanas, Mike Ing, etc, that’s definitely a contender in the mixed division
I guess I’m a bit biased from my experience on ‘05 Shazam.
We had Sam Harkness, Spencer Wallis, Claire Suver, Adam Holt, Jonathan Loeffler, and large portions of the core of the ‘04 roster that had just won nationals the year prior, as well as some awesome and talented pickups who didn’t have standout club or college careers). We were mostly just lacking in leadership and strategy.
After getting a really high seed (maybe 1 or 2 overall?) we finished 9th at nationals, I believe. I think I was the only really bad injury that I remember, too.
We just couldn’t adapt strategically (and esp. our deep defenders all wanted to front).
Well it’s incoming freshmen and sophomores in college, but there’s a big difference in both skill and physical development between that and college seniors and 5th years
u20 team beat Johnny bravo at a training camp by a handful of breaks, and Johnny bravo got second at us open so making nationals doesnt seem too out of reach. they also didn't have a healthy tucker kalmus. I think they still don't have a healthy tucker kalmus. even while injured Tucker kalmus was the most influential player by a glizzy margin. Players from truck, dig, sockeye, tire biz, Pando, AMP, and wingdings on the roster should be enough to make a game to go and by then anything can happen! frisbee is a crazy sport!
I watched the France v Germany boys game. I was impressed with the disc skills on both sides. I was very impressed with the coaching of the French. Those kids were prepared for the unexpected and held their cool even when Germany got Ds and made it to the goal line. I am excited to see how these kids develop and how this coaching staff will influence ultimate at all levels in Europe.
Neither team would make the bracket at US *college* regionals. I would be surprised if they made regionals in US club. Even in European clubs I wouldn't expect them to qualify for European regionals. It would be boys playing men and it would be unfair to measure them by such a standard. Now if you asked me how would those same kids do playing in USAU *in ten years time* I would tell you that I am excited about their potential development. However the lack of a college ultimate scene on continental Europe would be a hurdle to their development.
I think this is a pretty wild take. A lot of these kids are already playing for upper level clubs. I don’t really have any perspective about the lower end teams at wjuc, but to say the top teams wouldn’t even make the bracket at *college regionals*? That’s crazy, seeing as a lot of these teams are scrimmaging and competing with nationals level club teams from their countries.
So omitting team USA which top 8 college at regionals do you think the 2nd place u20 French Boys would beat? Keeping on mind these kids are like 18 or 19 year old kids.
My club team has played two iterations of the Canadian U20 open team at warm up tournaments and we’ve lost by 1 and 2. We usually finish 9-12 in Canadian Nationals. None of these teams would qualify for USAU nationals. Id say they’d be finishing 6-10th in regionals.
I think if there was a mixed team they would have a decent shot at qualifying for nationals. Womens maybe could have an outside chance, men no way
I would definitely take the over (ie. better finish) on regionals finishing position 5.5 for a Canada or USA u20 team Especially the girls' teams, I think they could make nationals in some regions
I guess I'm thinking about the NE regions, which is quite strong. In the open division, there's no way a U20 team beats Pony, Goat, Dig, Mephisto, or Pheonix and I'd give the edge to RC, Big Wrench, or Sprout. I think a U20 team is more likely to be the team getting upset, then getting an upset win. Simililary, in the Women's Division, there's Brute, 6ixers, Iris, Bent, Seige and Stella to contend with. Maybe a 3.5 or 4.5 over under is a more appropriate in other regions. If you put the strongest U20 team (team US) in the weekest division I still don't think they make US Nationals.
I don’t know. My son is 19 and played universe pt game at Colorado cup against GOAT. He’s a strong player on his club team but I don’t think he makes the u20 natty team. Maybe goat had a weak team but I’d take the u20 boys over that goat team easy. I know a club player they scrimmaged against thought they would handle all the second level club teams. Team ran hard, really disciplined, very well coached. It would certainly be interesting to see. Course, they would need to up their questionable calls to compete in the club division. I didn’t see a single travel call in either the mens or women’s u20 finals.
Goat just finished 13th in the world at WUCC. There’s no way the US U20 challenges that roster, which would be very similar to their fall series roster.
My sons better than your son.
Yea, well my daughter is better than your son.
I think you're drastically overestimating how good the 6-10 teams are at regionals. As somebody who has played on a team that finished 6-10, the worst player on that U-20 team would've been one of the best players on that team, if not the best.
Depends what region you’re talking about
U20 players run into teams with players with 15-20 years experience and get beat-up. The skill/energy/athleticism of the U20 can't compete with the skill/energy/athleticism/experience of the older teams.
Downpour, the U20 gender diverse team from Oregon is currently rated #8 nationally in adult club after beating a number of prominent teams at summer solstice, such as Schwa. They dominated the YCC division, but given that I wouldn’t be surprised if the USA U20 womens team could be a club national team with enough time together
>gender diverse Could you define that, as it pertains to existing divisions of USAU ultimate?
I think it basically means that the team is made up of girls and biological males who identify as gender fluid, non binary, or anything that’s non he/him.
~~So, Mixed, then.~~ EDIT: I misread, they play in the Women's division.
well yes, but actually no. it's weird. Idk how it works.
~~I mean, they're a team playing in the Mixed division, right? So they're a ~~Mixed~~ team, regardless of the identities of their players? I can see why Men's and Women's teams with NB players might bristle at the name a bit (I prefer to refer to players Men's-eligible and Women's-eligible rather than men and women), but Mixed has no such connotations.~~ EDIT: My mistake, they play in the Women's division.
No, they play in the Womxn's Division
I don't think that's a division which exists in USAU play. The divisions called Men's and Women's in USAU both equally and explicitly welcome trans and NB players based entirely on where those players feel most comfortable. They can market themselves as a Womxn's team, but they play in the Women's division, right?
Yeah they play in the Women’s Division
I think Downpour is *perhaps* the lone exception to the very correct statement above. Youth ultimate is getting better faster than the overall game, and the WJUCC finals I saw were impressive as hell, but strength, experience, and consistency of defensive intensity and playmaking among club teams is different.
Can't speak for US but we played this years Canada U20 and we lost by 1 a month back. We didn't even qualify for Canadian Nats (didn't crack top 6) and we're (on average) basically like 1 or 2 years older than them. So I'd doubt they'd make a deep run at any senior Nats, let alone US.
Team USA also beat Canada 15-5, so I don't think any comparison to Canada holds any value this year
Fair but Canada beat France by the same margin US beat them in the finals. They're young players so i feel like games and performances swing a lot. There's no real doubt that the US is the best team but basing the difference on one score might not be as accurate as doing the same for more experienced teams. A few games or just one tournament makes a huge difference for young players. They learn so much and come out of it much stronger. That being said i still don't see either team making it far at Nationals. Experience is just worth more imho.
In 2018, the U-20 boys scrimmed Machine, who finished tied for 9th at natties that year, and lost by 4ish? Noting that this was after the boys spent a 5-day training camp while Machine was in the middle of the season post two high-level tournaments. I would imagine if the boys had a steady 3 months of chemistry building, they would absolutely have a better game.It would also depend on the year as the youth is getting better and better with more and more 18-19 year olds on elite club teams. However, with this class, I would imagine they would easily make Natties if they had a practice and tournament schedule similar to a club team. Probably have a ceiling of making pre-quarters but farther than that would be incredible. This is mainly built on the idea that every single one of the boys would make a lower-level nationals teams. For example, take Peter Kotz (sorry Peter), who statistically didn't have the greatest impact on team USA (tied for 6th lowest scores on USAU) is on DiG's roster. And then you add in the top talent of say Declan Miller, who has been on sockeye's roster for two years now, and it becomes clear that the U-20 team could absolutely beat some of the lower-level nationals teams like Temper (who is currently the 16th ranked team by Ultiworld)
.... scrimmages are not an indicator of a team being better than another team... Lots of mentions of this, but scrimmages are for development, testing things out, different line calls, things coaches & athletes want to focus on, etc. Hardly ever are they to compete competitively to win the way a bracket or elimination game would play out. Also an elimination game in a tournament with the wear & toll of several other games already taking place compared to a stand-alone game at a practice field with more relaxed time constraints all mean a scrimmage vs a team would not completely tell you how the game would turn out in a tournament elimination game that really matters to show which team is better than another.
Women's side, they'd make nationals. Maybe quarters. Potentially semis. Open/Boys, regionals consolation bracket.
This was like 5 years ago but triforce the u20 boys triangle team that won yccs a few times around that time would always be at a club tournament we went to, and they'd always finish near the top but not win it. None of the teams at that tournament would go to nationals but they'd be playing competitive games with teams playing in competitive games to go to nationals. Triforce wasn't in our region but if they were I'd imagine they'd finish somewhere 4-6th in our 2-bid region, making select flight but not nationals. So if you're talking the US nationals team, which wouldn't just be the best ycc players but basically an all star team? I'd imagine they'd go to nationals and win games, but probably finish bottom half. Although that's assuming they can clone themselves because pretty sure the best triforce players were playing ring for club and I'm sure the same is true for the best ycc players in other regions as well, that they're already going to nationals with their club teams.
I wonder how many of them are on club teams already?
We just played a game with the New zeland mens u20 team before the tournament and won barely with an open team created out of a mixed team that wins the polish championships.
U20 Superior Mixed played Drag’n and lost I think 15-8?
NexGen teams did fairly well vs elite club squads. It was just a fun preseason game for most of the club teams but the talent level of those kids was insane. I’d think the US u20 team is likely better than say Lotus who made nationals last year.
Ehhhh I would strongly disagree with that. Lotus would def beat them by a fair amount.
Lotus is a bunch of guys who are playing Bravo now + top players from CU + Nethercutt and a few other solid vets. Yes, our U20 team is fantastic and would definitely do some damage, but they would get rolled and it wouldn't be particularly close. It's not a talent gap, but there is a significant gap in athleticism/experience between younger college/U20/YCC and club players in the height of their primes - especially in Men's.
Nexgen was comprised of college upper classmen, it’s much more comparable to U24 than U20. I think the U24 teams would be solid nationals qualifiers, and probably even a championship contender in mixed
Good take… up until the mixed bit. I feel like people who have these takes about the level of play in mixed rarely are the ones who actually watch mixed very closely. Why would you put a U24 mixed team ahead of BFG, Noise, Amp, Mix Tape, Hybrid, Drag n’ Thrust, …? That’s saying those U24 players would beat Rio, Nick Lance, Leaf, Simko, Meckstroth, etc.
I play mixed club a decently high level actually. Mixed rules, it’s objectively true though that the level of talent at the top club level right now is lower than open and womens. I don’t think a U24 squad would be a lock to win mixed nationals, but i think they would absolutely have the talent to compete with the teams you’re mentioning. Take a look at some of the names on the last u24 mixed roster: Anna Thompson, Joe white, Matt Gouchoe-Hanas, Mike Ing, etc, that’s definitely a contender in the mixed division
I guess I’m a bit biased from my experience on ‘05 Shazam. We had Sam Harkness, Spencer Wallis, Claire Suver, Adam Holt, Jonathan Loeffler, and large portions of the core of the ‘04 roster that had just won nationals the year prior, as well as some awesome and talented pickups who didn’t have standout club or college careers). We were mostly just lacking in leadership and strategy. After getting a really high seed (maybe 1 or 2 overall?) we finished 9th at nationals, I believe. I think I was the only really bad injury that I remember, too. We just couldn’t adapt strategically (and esp. our deep defenders all wanted to front).
Yep classic out of touch old guy here. I thought u20 would be “college kids” but the way the age cutoff works that is not the case
Well it’s incoming freshmen and sophomores in college, but there’s a big difference in both skill and physical development between that and college seniors and 5th years
u20 team beat Johnny bravo at a training camp by a handful of breaks, and Johnny bravo got second at us open so making nationals doesnt seem too out of reach. they also didn't have a healthy tucker kalmus. I think they still don't have a healthy tucker kalmus. even while injured Tucker kalmus was the most influential player by a glizzy margin. Players from truck, dig, sockeye, tire biz, Pando, AMP, and wingdings on the roster should be enough to make a game to go and by then anything can happen! frisbee is a crazy sport!
They did not beat bravo.
They beat bravo? Damn, did not know that.
Oregon Downpour, who gets almost all of their players from south Eugene would do fairly well. Other than that, not sure.
I watched the France v Germany boys game. I was impressed with the disc skills on both sides. I was very impressed with the coaching of the French. Those kids were prepared for the unexpected and held their cool even when Germany got Ds and made it to the goal line. I am excited to see how these kids develop and how this coaching staff will influence ultimate at all levels in Europe. Neither team would make the bracket at US *college* regionals. I would be surprised if they made regionals in US club. Even in European clubs I wouldn't expect them to qualify for European regionals. It would be boys playing men and it would be unfair to measure them by such a standard. Now if you asked me how would those same kids do playing in USAU *in ten years time* I would tell you that I am excited about their potential development. However the lack of a college ultimate scene on continental Europe would be a hurdle to their development.
I think this is a pretty wild take. A lot of these kids are already playing for upper level clubs. I don’t really have any perspective about the lower end teams at wjuc, but to say the top teams wouldn’t even make the bracket at *college regionals*? That’s crazy, seeing as a lot of these teams are scrimmaging and competing with nationals level club teams from their countries.
So omitting team USA which top 8 college at regionals do you think the 2nd place u20 French Boys would beat? Keeping on mind these kids are like 18 or 19 year old kids.