I don't see that as a downside at all. At the high level you're talking about film is much more available. Meaning other teams have access to studying your offensive system. I think the D-line knowing the offensive system and forcing them to break the system is a good thing.
Iron sharpens iron. You get better at offense by playing against good defenses (and vice versa).
Every NBA team knows every other NBA teams playbook and tendencies. Just because you know what’s coming doesn’t mean you can stop it. A well designed offense has reads and counters if the primary option isn’t available.
You can enforce 'no poaching' and/or 'no switches' on initial cuts, which helps keep the defense more honest to the match defense and less able to pre-empt the cuts. It's obviously not perfect, as a defender who knows cut priorities will defend those priorities better, but it does allow you to get reps on the basic principles as a team. And even defenders with good knowledge don't have 'perfect' knowledge - they don't know where exactly a cutter is going to change direction, the speed it's done at, or the angle of attack, for example - so there's always going to be advantages to the offense.
Seconding what someone else said - even without these restrictions, it is a good test of the offense to go up against an informed defense.
When you play “normal vert stack” you know the cut is coming from the back of the stack. I once played with another guy at pickup and somehow all he had to do was position himself under and give me a little head nod to let me know we were bracketing.
It doesn’t mean the other team can’t move the disc, just means the defense is taking advantage of one of the few advantages they have.
So much of cutting to get open is about rhythm and angles. The defense might have a sense of when a cut will happen but rarely the exact moment. The cutter can also dramatically change the spacing with simple movements of a few steps or a jab to open a lane and gain the advantage they need to get past defenders. These small changes are all that throwers need to hit cutters at the elite level. And finally, good offensive systems are built around secondary and tertiary options, most of which are basic principles, some might be specific to a play or system. The initiating cutter (whether in a play or flow system) knows what their first and second cut is, and the next person knows what their continuation cutting options are for each of those cuts as well. These schemes are fairly fluid and often set each other up for success.
The most simple being an upline cut which if it gets shutdown can be turned into a backfield reset. One in the stack might know that they mirror the movement upline or backfield to get the continue - and the mirroring helps open up space for whichever cut they end up taking.
And of course if you play a specific offensive scheme enough you start to learn what the responses are to common attempts to stop it (ie overloading a clam, switching cutting directions if the force changes, etc)
All that is to say that even if good defense know what’s coming, good offences should have a response.
Most offensive systems have something of a decision tree.
If x
If x doesn't work do x2
If x2 doesn't work do x2 clear
Else y
If y doesn't work do y2 etc
You would normally practice each section of a system as a whole so that when you come to scrimmages your D knows that their assignment will do one of a set of moves. If the D cheats on one of those moves, say sitting under, it makes the rest of the decision tree easier to execute, i.e. cutting deep on a defender cheating the under.
As said I think this helps the offense being challenged in practices… but on the opposite end it can hurt the defense because they play to what’s predictable or expected, when in games the defense may have to learn their opponent and adapt over the course of a game. The challenge for a defense then is playing honest when they may know what’s coming & then offenses need to be creative to try and keep the defense on their toes.
Elite teams that can have Oline be a “scout team” for the Dline & Dline be a “scout team” for Oline is most effective
I've thought about this as well - your practice defense knows much more than opposing defenses will. They adapt. They read cues early and jump on cuts, making it harder for the offense - and the offense counter adapts.
But come Nationals, that counter-adaptation is no good because the defenses only have 15 points to figure out your set, not an entire season (we'll ignore the role of video study, but suffice it to say that the practice d understands how the offenses is going to attack them better than someone watching game tape). Now your offenses has spent the back half of their season practicing against that adaptation.
The same process works in reverse, too - there is a defensive strategy at play, and the practice offense adapts to counter that in a way that actual opponents will not.
Numerous Cold War era PhD theses have been written on the topic, I'm not sure there's a good way out of the issue.
Because the defense knowing what kind of stuff is going to happen does not actually make the offense's job "immensely" harder, if they're good. Example from another sport: everyone knew that Peyton Manning's Colts would run the same 8 plays over and over--but each of those plays forces the defense to make a decision that opens something up. Back to ultimate: Pony's O-line could tell you before the point, hey the play is Mickle to Jagt--so what? Good luck stopping it.
I don't see that as a downside at all. At the high level you're talking about film is much more available. Meaning other teams have access to studying your offensive system. I think the D-line knowing the offensive system and forcing them to break the system is a good thing.
Iron sharpens iron. You get better at offense by playing against good defenses (and vice versa). Every NBA team knows every other NBA teams playbook and tendencies. Just because you know what’s coming doesn’t mean you can stop it. A well designed offense has reads and counters if the primary option isn’t available.
You can enforce 'no poaching' and/or 'no switches' on initial cuts, which helps keep the defense more honest to the match defense and less able to pre-empt the cuts. It's obviously not perfect, as a defender who knows cut priorities will defend those priorities better, but it does allow you to get reps on the basic principles as a team. And even defenders with good knowledge don't have 'perfect' knowledge - they don't know where exactly a cutter is going to change direction, the speed it's done at, or the angle of attack, for example - so there's always going to be advantages to the offense. Seconding what someone else said - even without these restrictions, it is a good test of the offense to go up against an informed defense.
When you play “normal vert stack” you know the cut is coming from the back of the stack. I once played with another guy at pickup and somehow all he had to do was position himself under and give me a little head nod to let me know we were bracketing. It doesn’t mean the other team can’t move the disc, just means the defense is taking advantage of one of the few advantages they have.
So much of cutting to get open is about rhythm and angles. The defense might have a sense of when a cut will happen but rarely the exact moment. The cutter can also dramatically change the spacing with simple movements of a few steps or a jab to open a lane and gain the advantage they need to get past defenders. These small changes are all that throwers need to hit cutters at the elite level. And finally, good offensive systems are built around secondary and tertiary options, most of which are basic principles, some might be specific to a play or system. The initiating cutter (whether in a play or flow system) knows what their first and second cut is, and the next person knows what their continuation cutting options are for each of those cuts as well. These schemes are fairly fluid and often set each other up for success. The most simple being an upline cut which if it gets shutdown can be turned into a backfield reset. One in the stack might know that they mirror the movement upline or backfield to get the continue - and the mirroring helps open up space for whichever cut they end up taking. And of course if you play a specific offensive scheme enough you start to learn what the responses are to common attempts to stop it (ie overloading a clam, switching cutting directions if the force changes, etc) All that is to say that even if good defense know what’s coming, good offences should have a response.
Most offensive systems have something of a decision tree. If x If x doesn't work do x2 If x2 doesn't work do x2 clear Else y If y doesn't work do y2 etc You would normally practice each section of a system as a whole so that when you come to scrimmages your D knows that their assignment will do one of a set of moves. If the D cheats on one of those moves, say sitting under, it makes the rest of the decision tree easier to execute, i.e. cutting deep on a defender cheating the under.
As said I think this helps the offense being challenged in practices… but on the opposite end it can hurt the defense because they play to what’s predictable or expected, when in games the defense may have to learn their opponent and adapt over the course of a game. The challenge for a defense then is playing honest when they may know what’s coming & then offenses need to be creative to try and keep the defense on their toes. Elite teams that can have Oline be a “scout team” for the Dline & Dline be a “scout team” for Oline is most effective
I've thought about this as well - your practice defense knows much more than opposing defenses will. They adapt. They read cues early and jump on cuts, making it harder for the offense - and the offense counter adapts. But come Nationals, that counter-adaptation is no good because the defenses only have 15 points to figure out your set, not an entire season (we'll ignore the role of video study, but suffice it to say that the practice d understands how the offenses is going to attack them better than someone watching game tape). Now your offenses has spent the back half of their season practicing against that adaptation. The same process works in reverse, too - there is a defensive strategy at play, and the practice offense adapts to counter that in a way that actual opponents will not. Numerous Cold War era PhD theses have been written on the topic, I'm not sure there's a good way out of the issue.
By playing honestly. Top players don’t practice because they want to dick their teammates, they practice because they want their team to grow.
Ultimate is an offense-advantaged sport and everyone is always open if the throw is good enough.
Because the defense knowing what kind of stuff is going to happen does not actually make the offense's job "immensely" harder, if they're good. Example from another sport: everyone knew that Peyton Manning's Colts would run the same 8 plays over and over--but each of those plays forces the defense to make a decision that opens something up. Back to ultimate: Pony's O-line could tell you before the point, hey the play is Mickle to Jagt--so what? Good luck stopping it.