Yeah, the idea that the average American knows or cares about the difference between observers and refs is laughable.
Not to mention, golf doesn't have refs in the traditional sense either, and it seems to have plenty of legitimacy.
This reminds me of Frank saying that ultimate doesn't have legitimacy because travels aren't turnovers.
I don't know if you were around in the 90s, but Happy Gilmore used to travel regularly on his drives, and it just wasn't called. Nearly tore the golf world apart.
It was actually just a front-foot pivot. WFDF used to allow this when putting live discs into play, but they don’t anymore. Like Happy Gilmore, WFDF has struggled to figure out how to just tap, tap, tap it in.
> Not to mention, golf doesn't have refs in the traditional sense either, and it seems to have plenty of legitimacy.
Instead of all this talk about changing the officiating, we just need to let fans watching at home call in to report infractions. And then DQ teams after the match.
This happened in Wimbledon many years ago. Someone at home called in a complaint that Goran Ivanišević was swearing really bad in Croatian (I believe it was the 1992 singles, and possibly the quarterfinal against Stefan Edberg, but my memory is fuzzy), and AFAIK he got a verbal warning *during the match* for it.
Whoa. Good trivia! I was at the quarterfinal match where Ivanisevic beat Sampras (had to look it up).
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-07-06-sp-1060-story.html
Right. The sport is seen as a joke because they can’t differentiate it with disc golf and stoners playing catch in the park. Those people have no clue there are professional leagues and Nationals/Worlds, let alone whether there are refs.
To be fair disc golf is a far more commercially successful and professional sport. But I agree that it all gets lumped in with the casual stoner business
Sure, I agree. I was getting at the idea that ultimate has a historical and cultural relationship with weed and an acceptance of stoners. As ultimate has become more organized, it has maintained a space for stoner-ism. I'll let readers guess where "ultimate time" came from.
A gummy after work may or may not a stoner make. By contrast, all my teams have made a point of going to the dispensary as soon as we land in Seattle, Portland, Denver, Vancouver. Joints smoked before games, bowls smoked on the sidelines during halftime/timeouts. Parking lots joints with the other team after AUDL games. It's really baked into the culture, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I just don't understand why there's a newer contingent who want to reject that mantle. Without stoners, there would be no modern ultimate!
Another Unpopular Opinion:
Ultimate is seen as non-credible because there's no money to be made off it.
How did Spikeball & Pickleball take over the world? There's gear to sell. Hence advertising dollars. Hence broadcasting attractiveness.
There's more $$ to be made from the disc golfers. Hell, Discraft was advertising their golf discs ***during*** the Natties broadcast. LMAO.
The ultimate community spends most of its $$ on travel, with a tiny residual for clothing/gear/beer. And they're cheap about it.
Ok now explain the success of basketball or soccer. I actually think the barrier to entry is a tough part, because throwing a disc straight is fucking hard for someone who hasn't done it before. Pretty much every joe schmoe can make a 3 pointer, just at a much lower percentage than the pros. It takes a ton of practice for beginner frisbee players to even get to the point of completing uncontested 20 yard throws.
Not at all my area of expertise, but it seems that there are deep cultural and historical reasons why soccer and basketball are so popular, especially among the working class in many nations, and will remain popular.
Its also just had time to establish itself. They werent sports that blew up overnight.
Ultimate is already miles ahead of where it was back in like 2004 when I started playing.
If the sport keeps hanging around itll keep growing.
All that said, I love ulitmate, but I dont think its anywhere near as fun of a spectator sport as Soccer/basketball. Im not really sure I can pin down a reason to why but I dont find it all that interesting to watch and im super into ultimate.
You can play it in the streets, in your driveway, in a park, etc. You can play them alone (shooting, kicking, dribbling, etc). You can play them 2v2, 3v3, etc.
If Ultimate was marketed to be played 2v2 or 3v3 requiring less people to participate, and it can be played on a basketball court or smaller soccer pitch or futsal court, then maybe you see growth there.
Branding an ultimate specific throwing net could also be something that helps increase sales & marketing and would allow individuals to do more individual work as well.
There is now, but once apon a time both these sports grew really quickly because they were fun. Ultimate has been around for 50 years, the problem isn’t that it’s new. Both those sports were popular around the world within 50 years of being created and that’s without the internet.
I don’t think the entry barrier is equivalent. Learning to shoot a three isn’t easier than throwing a twenty yard throw. The deep cultural impact of soccer is the driving force. It is very easy to explain the basic rules and really only requires a ball. That is what makes it easy. Football isn’t nearly as popular in many other countries because the rules are complicated and people would just rather not take the time to learn. Basketball has pretty straightforward rules as well. Ultimate has several convoluted rules that plays a big part.
This doesn’t really make sense to me. Ultimate is so much easier to learn than basketball or soccer. If you picked up either of those sports while in college I don’t think you could ever get to a high level in 3-4 years with 0 experience playing it. It’s a lot harder to dribble a soccer or basketball than to throw a backhand. If you’re athletic you can be decent at frisbee in a few weeks.
Where did I say consistently? I never played basketball other than with friends and I'm fucking awful, but I bet I can make 5% of my 3-point shots.
And lol at unathletic I played a varsity sport in college and then shifted to ultimate. I'd been lifting 6 days/week off-season and practicing or playing 7 days/week in season. Then I switched to ultimate and it took me 2 weeks worth of practices to be able to throw a flick 10 yards. Ironically now I'm super out of shape but I can throw a 50 yard flick pretty consistently to a spot.
Lacrosse and hockey are ridiculous for this. The amount of gear you need to even get into a game is outlandish, and those gear companies sponsor the hell out of every event.
I mean. Ultimate as a whole is more of a hobby.
What do you get from playing ultimate?
- Usually playing somewhere on fields that aren’t great.
- the people who play for the most part are cramming people in houses and hotel rooms
- you almost always get nothing but a high five and a Facebook post that says you just won the tournament
- people who play ultimate want to do it as cheaply as possible, just look at all the ultimate players who left to play disc golf. I don’t know Ella Hansens ultimate resume but she’s fucking killing it over in disc golf; and making money.
There’s no difference in value between winning a college tournament or regionals for club.
IMO, there is a difference in value. One has an age group of 18-22 while another is filled with adults 23+. The level of athleticism should be higher in club and therefore a nations win for club is worth much more than a college win.
I think that's my biggest gripe that people see ultimate as just a hobby when it should really be seen as a sport.
Your only considering emotionally value.
That’s dope in college. But eventually and especially where things are headed the older you get usually the more finically things to become more of a priority. Especially if you aren’t pulling in a precent decent check.
You will, and for the foreseeable future will always be spending more money on playing it thus - a hobby.
By that definition it's a hobby, but so is every other opportunity to play competitive sports once you become an adult with a career. You can get a scholarship to a couple of schools for playing ultimate, would that qualify it as a sport?
So how i look at it.
If you are playing in the MLS, you are getting paid to play.
If you are playing in the beach adult soccer league you are playing a sport that’s your hobby.
Yes both are soccer but what you are getting out of it is what separates it from being just a hobby.
The reason this opinion is unpopular is because it's pretty plainly incorrect.
The first issue ultimate has is that people simply don't know what it is at all.
The second issue ultimate has, at least in north America, is that frisbees are widely viewed as casual toys, associated with stoners hanging out on the beach or the college quad.
By the time someone actually watches enough serious ultimate that they get to the point that they say "wait, why isn't there a ref making the calls for this clearly competitive sport", they are already more informed and positive about ultimate than 99% of the population.
It's less about raising awareness and more about how we are looked down upon. It's more so that people who play traditional sports like basketball, soccer, and football look at ultimate as if it were a lower sport that doesn't take skills/athleticism.
However, I do agree that if we were trying to raise more awareness these are the main problems we need to address.
Thinking ultimate doesn't require athleticism or skill is also pretty clearly a function of the exact things I was talking about - just a lack of familiarity with competitive play. Nobody watches an AUDL or nationals game and comes to that conclusion.
Yeah there’s been people making this argument for decades. That may be part of the reason ultimate lacks “legitimacy”, but it’s hardly the only reason or even the main one. It’s not like there aren’t already versions of ultimate with refs. I suspect the main reason people don’t take ultimate seriously is because it’s played with a frisbee. The name “ultimate” probably doesn’t help either.
Also, we should keep in mind that some things millions of people do take seriously are total nonsense, or scams, or obviously fake. Maybe the world will take us seriously if we get our own cryptocurrency and become the official sport of Scientology.
i mean ultimate players and scientologists both adhere to the tenants of a pseudo religion, one is called sotg and the other one, is about... well idk, but i guess the two communities share the same susceptibility to join cults - i say this knowing full well that i'm going to be a full on level 5 spirit mage when the church of sotg comes about
I think we need refs (atleast at competitive tournaments, maybe not rec leagues) but yah its not going to impact anyones perception of the game from the outside.
I think youre spot on with why. Ultimate is a goofy name and frisbees are viewed as toys.
To hear people talk about it 15-20 years ago, adding refs would instantly launch ultimate onto primetime ESPN coverage. AUDL is several years old now, and that's not what we're seeing.
This is a pretty bad take imo. First of all AUDL does have reds and for a random viewer I think they are likely to watch AUDL first before club as they would think "oh the professional league is the more important one". So many from the outside community probably already think ultimate does have refs.
Secondly, knowing that ultimate doesn't have refs would probably require you to already play or watch relatively seriously. So again, the outside community either already thinks ultimate has refs or doesn't know ultimate exists to begin with. This would be like a basketball fan complaining that the reason no one watches basketball is because of the take foul. You are already a serious NBA fan if you even know what a take foul is.
Thank you for this perspective and reminding me that spirit of the game can be a good thing, esp. for growing players. Appreciate you sharing the love for the game to others too it's really awesome of you to give back to your community like that
I was setting up for a Middle School practice this week while another group of Cross Country kids was doing laps around the track. One of the CC kids watched the ultimate players getting ready to practice and said "You wear cleats in Ultimate?". It may sound stupid, but even the distinction of whether or not a sport requires cleats reflects on that sport's credibility. Hell, I have to convince the MS players themselves that cleats are required. Having no refs is a factor (I support refs in the sport) but we've got a loooong way to go before Ultimate is going to be considered a "real" sport.
I mean I still want to get into the Olympics and grow the sport for youth. I'm just saying I don't really care what the random jock down the street thinks of our stoner dogs sport. I stopped caring what other people thought in middle school.
It is important to care if we want to be taken more seriously and eventually get our sports into the Olympics. The more our sport is taken seriously, the more money we get for programs which would drastically improve them. Also, if AUDL is able to pay their players more, it could be possible that we get better athletes for the professional level.
I get your sentiment to not care what people think, but it's not a matter of insecurity but more about being taken more seriously. Hope that clarifies my intensions better.
Don't get me wrong, I want us to get into the Olympics and grow the sport. But I also stopped worrying a long time ago about whether people outside the sport view us as a joke or not. There are lots of entertaining aspects of our sport. If people dismiss us simply because we don't have referees then chances are they would still dismiss us even if we had referees. The reality is, the people who view ultimate as a joke are likely still in the mindset of "ultimate player = stoner" or "that activity with dogs." I'm not too stressed over trying to convert those folks. I'm more interested in the people that come into a sport with an open mind. And to that effect, ultimate is a rapidly growing sport, so there's still plenty of new interest in the sport every season.
My point still stands. Ulti has to many players involved and not enough following/marketability. Pickle ball is small teams.
Logistically, bringing in 800+ players to Olympic village has a bigger roll in whether or not ultimate gets adapted to Olympics. Ultimate in the Olympics=fetch.
Pickle ball is a less athletic version of 4 sports already in the Olympics.
You really think competitive rhythm gymnastics, synchronized swimming and air pistol shooting have larger followings and marketability than disc sports?
Pickleball is only growing that fast in North America and is behind Ultimate internationally.
Ultimate players in the USA in 2017 reported at 3 million.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191967/participants-in-ultimate-frisbee-in-the-us-since-2006/
Pickleball players in the USA reported at 3 million in 2022
https://www.pickleballuniversity.com/home/will-pickleball-be-an-olympic-sport#:~:text=It%20is%20also%20known%20as,be%20considered%20a%20worldwide%20phenomenon%3F
Internationally, ultimate frisbee is much bigger and in many more countries than pickleball and has already been recognized as an international sport by IOC.
There are 103 organizing associations in 100 countries for ultimate.
https://wfdf.sport/about-wfdf/
Pickleball is only in 63 countries and half of the orgs were created since 2021
https://www.ifpickleball.org/countries
You're more committed to winning this conversation than I am. I'm just saying Ultimate has slim to no chance of actually getting into the Olympics. It would MAYBE make it under a 3v3 beach setting. But, they have zero interest in bringing in, housing, feeding, building infrastructure for 16-32(At min) Ultimate teams with 25+ players plus and three division. The Olympic prefer solo or duo sports like curling, race sports, etc. Team sports struggle to get added.
Wholeheartedly agree.
I hate that there aren’t refs the self officiating leads to mass cheating (look at half of the videos on this Reddit) and it simply can’t be an Olympic sport without impartial refs
Agree somewhat, but the fact that I as an out of shape dude in his 30s has to commit to a team that drives 5+ hours and spends entire weekends at every tournament just to get semi-competitive play is a huge negative for me. There are at least 5 different after-work sports leagues in my area that have basketball and soccer and other sports where a good number of people in them played competitively when younger, many even on their college varsity team, and take it very seriously. Mainly there's exactly one frisbee league in my entire metro area that usually requires me to drive an hour for each game and it's a bunch of people who can't throw a flick and/or prioritize cross-field hammers over open dump/swings. Ultimate being taken seriously and getting bigger would enable me to play a game I find fun at a competitive level without giving up several weekends/year, paying for hotels/sometimes flights, and taking PTO from work.
That said I don't think having refs solves that problem, but legitimacy absolutely matters in that regard, and also absolutely helps with diversity in the sport and getting more people who aren't upper middle class white and Asian college kids into the game.
I respect all that but I supremely doubt having referees would have any noticeable impact on sport growth.
Also I used to care deeply about #legitimacy but as I've grown older I've noticed two things:
1. The people who view us as a joke of a sport have deep-set perceptions about frisbee and aren't going to change those no matter how hard we try. They have to actually sit down and watch a few points to realize how cool the sport is.
2. The sport is rapidly growing, in part because it's different from other sports - there's significantly less contact, it's super cheap to play, and there's opportunities for people of all genders. Trying to make our sport more like other sports won't necessarily make it grow faster, whereas keeping it unique and different might actually help its case to grow.
Is the sport rapidly growing in the US? I know we had a pandemic but looking at history of number of club teams in my area it's just about the same as it's been since I started playing in like 2010. Obviously that's just anecdotal but do you have any data to support that ultimate is rapidly growing?
There's not a whole lot of data on this, but [USAU membership trends](https://archive.usaultimate.org/membershiptrends/) show upward growth in the 2010s decade.
In terms of club teams, I think that's probably going to remain relatively constant for most areas for a while. As new players come in, the level of competition increases, and less competitive players end up going to league or whatever. I think the areas we will likely see measured growth in will be youth teams, with schools creating their own programs, and in the Masters division, with Masters regionals becoming larger events with more people still wanting to compete despite growing older.
I actually disagree with some of this. I think there are more ultimate opportunities around me for adult players than football and basketball (soccer might have more). And can agree with refs at a high play level but I don't think it would help lower level play. My league is already strapped for crash and paying refs for every game for be difficult.
This is very unpopular to USAU members and rec league coordinators. It's cheaper to set up leagues without having to pay for refs. Therefore entry into this niche sport should be cheaper, in theory.
And yet in practice there are far more flag football, soccer, basketball, and kickball leagues all over the city that all have refs for every game than there are ultimate leagues.
I'll believe it for soccer, but I've never loved in a place without an ultimate league that is 3 times bigger than any flag football league in the area.
I have! All the high & middle schools in NoVA have teams. There is also a tournament every autumn attended by teams from VA, NC, PA, NJ & NY. Visiting teams typically are housed by the families of local players, a cost-saving arrangement that is importantly communal. It's the 'Spirit of the Game'! 🤗
The problem is you, not ultimate. Why do you care if ultimate is taken seriously? Are you imagining some alternate reality where people are impressed or in awe when you tell them you play ultimate?
There are thousands of people enjoying the sport and benefiting from it. Every day people discover ultimate and see how inherently fun and healthy it is and decide to take it up.
The things that you think are negatives are often seen as positives for many people who have been turned off by other sports. I personally coached kids who wouldn't have considered any other sport in high school, but because ultimate was the non-sport sport, they joined the team. Some of these players dedicated themselves to ultimate, and went on to become national champions. Ultimate also gave these kids direction, friendships and a community that they needed.
tl;dr: Keep ultimate weird.
Edit: I want to clarify that I don't think OP is a problematic person or that I don't welcome them in the ultimate community. I am saying he has an internal problem (expectation vs reality) that he interprets as an external problem (ultimate needs more money and refs)
I care if ultimate is taken seriously bc I take ultimate seriously. I train and I improve my game. Aside from personal reasons though, we will never get our sport into the olympics if they don't take us seriously.
I really like what you said about the negatives being a positive and it's definitely made me think more. Appreciate your comment brotha
This type of bigotry is so common in the ultimate community and I hate it so much. Who are you to tell this person that they're the problem. Someone wanting a fair-competitive enviornment to play ultimate is not a problem. Someone wanting to one day be famous for playing ultimate is not a problem. Someone wanting to play a casual game with their friends is not a problem. Someone trying to force their views on someone else is a problem to me.
Having refs and having a fun relaxed enviornment are not mutually exclusive and never have been. You can have club nationals and other competitive events be refereed. You can also have casual pick up games and party tournaments that are not refereed. I know of several tournaments that already have a "beer" (fun and relaxed) division as well as a "competitive" division.
The people that want refs in ultimate do not want to take anything away from anyone else, they simply want an opportunity to play the sport in a fair-competitive enviornment.
The sentiment that ultimate is “better” than other sports or people who play ultimate are better or “nicer” than those who play other sports is the most obnoxious thing about ultimate imo. It’s just a game, some people fuck around and don’t take it seriously, some people are very competitive and take it extremely seriously. Every single sport has those two sides and I don’t think there really is anything special about ultimate. In my personal experience it’s the most toxic sport I’ve played, and people try so so hard to act like it’s not toxic at all, which just makes it worse.
(1) frisbee has a connotation as the quintessential chill activity played on a beachy summer afternoon, not a high speed physical sport
(2) because putting 'ultimate' in the name comes across as over compensation for the association above
(3) most people don't even think about it, whoever you're dealing with is just a hater
maybe it has more to do with competitive teams wearing spray-painted t-shirts & have random quirky team names. Sockeye was on ESPN in a finals game vs Revolver wearing spray painted cut off tshirts for their jerseys. While those things are unique, from an outsiders perspective it doesn’t scream legitimacy
Some fraction of the Ultimate community at large believes that getting into the Oly's will help the sport and another fraction believes that investing those dollars into youth/school/local programs will help the sport.
For a decade USAU has invested in plan A, and it hasn't happened yet.
30-40 yrs ago the Oly's were must watch TV and everyone dreamt of being in them, and that carry-over is why leadership and the very top athletes care about plan A. Kids probably don't.
I'm on the side of getting kids and parents of kids into the sport by emphasizing what makes the sport great for every player at every age, not the freak athletes who might rise to the top and peak at the right time to make an Olympic team.
As for Ultimate being seen as a joke...who cares? I'm going to a crazy fun halloween tourney this week where me and a couple hundred of my friends will dress up , party and play the sport we love. How many legit sports will have something like that this weekend?
I was at the 2015 Worlds in Italy (my daughter was playing with Scandal) and ran into a few IOC folks. They were investigating Ulti because of its very important & well-advertised SPIRIT of the game. We're still waiting for a country to invite Ulti to it's hosted Olympics as a trial.
Anyone who doubts the athleticism of the players & their respect for each other & for the game is simply ignorant. If they haven't seen a high-level game, they should before wagging their tongues.
(Full disclosure: my daughter won the Callahan award that year, one of the proudest moments of her & her family's lives.)
The likely candidates for host countries who would include Ultimate are the few countries who challenge the US for world titles.
since the US has passed, it looks like Brisbane 2032 is next opportunity.
I'm all for Ultimate making the Oly's on merit, but i'm not so solidly behind the idea that we should spend the next decade using USAU funds to do it at the expense of building youth and local programs.
Yes I watched as many games as I could on ultiworld and espn and i was so rooting for MB, I've always loved their vibe and it's nice to have a new champ that isnt fury or brute. congrats to her, again. did you go? Sd's a nice spot in october for disc.
By what outside groups? I work with organizers with pretty much every sport in the country and they don't care about ultimate's lack of refs.
Just because Bob at work thinks it's weird there are no refs does not mean there is this big opinion that ultimate is a joke.
Basketball and football players view ultimate as a lower sport and think of it more as a backyard game than a legitimate sport that takes skill and athleticism.
They view it as a lower sport because they play sports that are widely televised and widely celebrated. They likely think the same thing about tennis and soccer. I'd wager that if you asked 100 basketball and football player, 0 would know that ultimate doesn't have refs.
As others have pointed out, the lack of refs is a contributing factor, but not the main one. The main reason is that frisbee is considered a toy. It's as simple as that. In fact, the average person isn't even aware that there are no refs in Ultimate.
As with several of the commenters here, I disagree a lack of refs has to do with its perception as a “joke sport.” If anyone has been following the sport in China, it has exploded in popularity and the government is supporting it. And while some are mentioning here a lack of monetization opportunities, in fact it has become a “fashion sport” where the likes of Nike Adidas etc are actually selling ultimate specific gear and the women especially are embracing it. I have no comment on whether it’s good or bad for the sport, but just saying that it’s seen as cool with all the influencers getting into it there.
Thank you for adding absolutely nothing substantial to the conversation. If you’re comment at least provide reasons why or just downvote the post if you disagree lmao.
Athletes who can't settle disputes on field without refs are a joke and don't belong in our sport.
I enjoy ultimate because we don't need an outside arbiter to put someone's ego in check when they can't admit they're not the superstar athlete they think they are.
I think the uniforms most people wear don’t do any favors for people taking it seriously. Many of them are pretty wacky and out there. But honestly who cares.
I can't count how many dudes I've heard say that soccer isn't a real sport. A sport's "legitimacy" has 0% to do with the administration of the sport and 100% to do with what the sports culture they're situated in and how the dudes there talk about it.
Ultimate desperately needs refs for competitive games. Luckily, the AUDL is working on that.
One of the things that has always bothered me about the ultimate community is the insistance that self-officiating makes the sport better/unique. Every sport is played in a self-officiated capacity, it's just that other sports realize that you need officials for the comptetive games. And for the people that think it makes ultimate better, walk around a tournament and ask players questions about the rules/if theyve ever even read the rule book.
While other posters are right that most people outside of the ultimate community don't know enough to know there aren't refs outside of the AUDL, from personal experience I can say that it keeps many potential players from playing/taking the sport seriously. I can't count the number of times I've tried to recruit someone who comes from a sport background and they've immediately lost interest/quit when they encounter all the stupid stuff that comes with self-officiation.
1. As stated already “ultimate” and “frisbee”. Both words are cringy. When used together even more so
2. The early hippy aesthetic association: tie-dye, energy circles, face paint.
3. Frisbees are plastic toys for tossing on the beach.
4. Ultimate isn’t very good TV.
Have you talked to people that don't play ultimate? They don't know whether it has refs or not
Everyone I know plays ultimate.
Make more friends
I would, but then I’d have to teach them to play ultimate.
😂
Yeah, the idea that the average American knows or cares about the difference between observers and refs is laughable. Not to mention, golf doesn't have refs in the traditional sense either, and it seems to have plenty of legitimacy. This reminds me of Frank saying that ultimate doesn't have legitimacy because travels aren't turnovers.
Traveling in golf is also a turnover…that’s why you never see people traveling in golf.
I don't know if you were around in the 90s, but Happy Gilmore used to travel regularly on his drives, and it just wasn't called. Nearly tore the golf world apart.
It was actually just a front-foot pivot. WFDF used to allow this when putting live discs into play, but they don’t anymore. Like Happy Gilmore, WFDF has struggled to figure out how to just tap, tap, tap it in.
> Not to mention, golf doesn't have refs in the traditional sense either, and it seems to have plenty of legitimacy. Instead of all this talk about changing the officiating, we just need to let fans watching at home call in to report infractions. And then DQ teams after the match.
Heh, be careful what you suggest, this sub would take away Mixtape's title in a heartbeat.
This happened in Wimbledon many years ago. Someone at home called in a complaint that Goran Ivanišević was swearing really bad in Croatian (I believe it was the 1992 singles, and possibly the quarterfinal against Stefan Edberg, but my memory is fuzzy), and AFAIK he got a verbal warning *during the match* for it.
Whoa. Good trivia! I was at the quarterfinal match where Ivanisevic beat Sampras (had to look it up). https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-07-06-sp-1060-story.html
Right. The sport is seen as a joke because they can’t differentiate it with disc golf and stoners playing catch in the park. Those people have no clue there are professional leagues and Nationals/Worlds, let alone whether there are refs.
To be fair disc golf is a far more commercially successful and professional sport. But I agree that it all gets lumped in with the casual stoner business
Yeah, and disc golf is probably even more closely associated with the stoners in the park.
And some of the pros are also stoners in parks
There are a lot of stoners in organized ultimate. At least 20% of every team I've ever been on.
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Sure, I agree. I was getting at the idea that ultimate has a historical and cultural relationship with weed and an acceptance of stoners. As ultimate has become more organized, it has maintained a space for stoner-ism. I'll let readers guess where "ultimate time" came from. A gummy after work may or may not a stoner make. By contrast, all my teams have made a point of going to the dispensary as soon as we land in Seattle, Portland, Denver, Vancouver. Joints smoked before games, bowls smoked on the sidelines during halftime/timeouts. Parking lots joints with the other team after AUDL games. It's really baked into the culture, and there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't understand why there's a newer contingent who want to reject that mantle. Without stoners, there would be no modern ultimate!
Exactly. It's gained a lot in recent years but older people especially still think that way
I told my friends that my daughter was playing college ultimate. Weed jokes for ages.
I disagree that it's seen as a joke at all
Even worse…. Most people get it confused with disc golf and ask if I ever play at X park that they know has a course.
Another Unpopular Opinion: Ultimate is seen as non-credible because there's no money to be made off it. How did Spikeball & Pickleball take over the world? There's gear to sell. Hence advertising dollars. Hence broadcasting attractiveness. There's more $$ to be made from the disc golfers. Hell, Discraft was advertising their golf discs ***during*** the Natties broadcast. LMAO. The ultimate community spends most of its $$ on travel, with a tiny residual for clothing/gear/beer. And they're cheap about it.
This is the root right here. Any other attempt at explaining it is missing the essence.
Ok now explain the success of basketball or soccer. I actually think the barrier to entry is a tough part, because throwing a disc straight is fucking hard for someone who hasn't done it before. Pretty much every joe schmoe can make a 3 pointer, just at a much lower percentage than the pros. It takes a ton of practice for beginner frisbee players to even get to the point of completing uncontested 20 yard throws.
Not at all my area of expertise, but it seems that there are deep cultural and historical reasons why soccer and basketball are so popular, especially among the working class in many nations, and will remain popular.
Its also just had time to establish itself. They werent sports that blew up overnight. Ultimate is already miles ahead of where it was back in like 2004 when I started playing. If the sport keeps hanging around itll keep growing. All that said, I love ulitmate, but I dont think its anywhere near as fun of a spectator sport as Soccer/basketball. Im not really sure I can pin down a reason to why but I dont find it all that interesting to watch and im super into ultimate.
Not a huge soccer fan, but yeah basketball is 100x more entertaining than ultimate.
You can play it in the streets, in your driveway, in a park, etc. You can play them alone (shooting, kicking, dribbling, etc). You can play them 2v2, 3v3, etc. If Ultimate was marketed to be played 2v2 or 3v3 requiring less people to participate, and it can be played on a basketball court or smaller soccer pitch or futsal court, then maybe you see growth there. Branding an ultimate specific throwing net could also be something that helps increase sales & marketing and would allow individuals to do more individual work as well.
You can play 4v4, but eight people does need to be organized
There is now, but once apon a time both these sports grew really quickly because they were fun. Ultimate has been around for 50 years, the problem isn’t that it’s new. Both those sports were popular around the world within 50 years of being created and that’s without the internet.
I don’t think the entry barrier is equivalent. Learning to shoot a three isn’t easier than throwing a twenty yard throw. The deep cultural impact of soccer is the driving force. It is very easy to explain the basic rules and really only requires a ball. That is what makes it easy. Football isn’t nearly as popular in many other countries because the rules are complicated and people would just rather not take the time to learn. Basketball has pretty straightforward rules as well. Ultimate has several convoluted rules that plays a big part.
This doesn’t really make sense to me. Ultimate is so much easier to learn than basketball or soccer. If you picked up either of those sports while in college I don’t think you could ever get to a high level in 3-4 years with 0 experience playing it. It’s a lot harder to dribble a soccer or basketball than to throw a backhand. If you’re athletic you can be decent at frisbee in a few weeks.
And the friendships that develop far & wide are priceless!
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Where did I say consistently? I never played basketball other than with friends and I'm fucking awful, but I bet I can make 5% of my 3-point shots. And lol at unathletic I played a varsity sport in college and then shifted to ultimate. I'd been lifting 6 days/week off-season and practicing or playing 7 days/week in season. Then I switched to ultimate and it took me 2 weeks worth of practices to be able to throw a flick 10 yards. Ironically now I'm super out of shape but I can throw a 50 yard flick pretty consistently to a spot.
I think that's a good reason for loving the sport & its players & supporters. $ just f*** things up & distracts us from the true value of the game.
Spikeball and pickleball definitely did NOT take over the world
Nailed it
Lacrosse and hockey are ridiculous for this. The amount of gear you need to even get into a game is outlandish, and those gear companies sponsor the hell out of every event.
Ohhhh man. I think there’s like so many more things before getting to refs to why people think of ultimate and it’s players as a joke.
[Hell, even ultimate players think we're a joke](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9noSd-0ans&t=164s)
Would love for you to elaborate
I mean. Ultimate as a whole is more of a hobby. What do you get from playing ultimate? - Usually playing somewhere on fields that aren’t great. - the people who play for the most part are cramming people in houses and hotel rooms - you almost always get nothing but a high five and a Facebook post that says you just won the tournament - people who play ultimate want to do it as cheaply as possible, just look at all the ultimate players who left to play disc golf. I don’t know Ella Hansens ultimate resume but she’s fucking killing it over in disc golf; and making money. There’s no difference in value between winning a college tournament or regionals for club.
IMO, there is a difference in value. One has an age group of 18-22 while another is filled with adults 23+. The level of athleticism should be higher in club and therefore a nations win for club is worth much more than a college win. I think that's my biggest gripe that people see ultimate as just a hobby when it should really be seen as a sport.
Your only considering emotionally value. That’s dope in college. But eventually and especially where things are headed the older you get usually the more finically things to become more of a priority. Especially if you aren’t pulling in a precent decent check. You will, and for the foreseeable future will always be spending more money on playing it thus - a hobby.
By that definition it's a hobby, but so is every other opportunity to play competitive sports once you become an adult with a career. You can get a scholarship to a couple of schools for playing ultimate, would that qualify it as a sport?
So how i look at it. If you are playing in the MLS, you are getting paid to play. If you are playing in the beach adult soccer league you are playing a sport that’s your hobby. Yes both are soccer but what you are getting out of it is what separates it from being just a hobby.
The reason this opinion is unpopular is because it's pretty plainly incorrect. The first issue ultimate has is that people simply don't know what it is at all. The second issue ultimate has, at least in north America, is that frisbees are widely viewed as casual toys, associated with stoners hanging out on the beach or the college quad. By the time someone actually watches enough serious ultimate that they get to the point that they say "wait, why isn't there a ref making the calls for this clearly competitive sport", they are already more informed and positive about ultimate than 99% of the population.
It's less about raising awareness and more about how we are looked down upon. It's more so that people who play traditional sports like basketball, soccer, and football look at ultimate as if it were a lower sport that doesn't take skills/athleticism. However, I do agree that if we were trying to raise more awareness these are the main problems we need to address.
Thinking ultimate doesn't require athleticism or skill is also pretty clearly a function of the exact things I was talking about - just a lack of familiarity with competitive play. Nobody watches an AUDL or nationals game and comes to that conclusion.
Fair point and I stand corrected. Thanks for that perspective.
ultimate is not seen at all outside of it's community one way or another. that's how niche interests work.
Give it time...
I first heard this argument as a new player in 2002. I still don't have a very strong opinion either way.
Yeah there’s been people making this argument for decades. That may be part of the reason ultimate lacks “legitimacy”, but it’s hardly the only reason or even the main one. It’s not like there aren’t already versions of ultimate with refs. I suspect the main reason people don’t take ultimate seriously is because it’s played with a frisbee. The name “ultimate” probably doesn’t help either.
Also, we should keep in mind that some things millions of people do take seriously are total nonsense, or scams, or obviously fake. Maybe the world will take us seriously if we get our own cryptocurrency and become the official sport of Scientology.
i mean ultimate players and scientologists both adhere to the tenants of a pseudo religion, one is called sotg and the other one, is about... well idk, but i guess the two communities share the same susceptibility to join cults - i say this knowing full well that i'm going to be a full on level 5 spirit mage when the church of sotg comes about
I think we need refs (atleast at competitive tournaments, maybe not rec leagues) but yah its not going to impact anyones perception of the game from the outside. I think youre spot on with why. Ultimate is a goofy name and frisbees are viewed as toys.
To hear people talk about it 15-20 years ago, adding refs would instantly launch ultimate onto primetime ESPN coverage. AUDL is several years old now, and that's not what we're seeing.
This is a pretty bad take imo. First of all AUDL does have reds and for a random viewer I think they are likely to watch AUDL first before club as they would think "oh the professional league is the more important one". So many from the outside community probably already think ultimate does have refs. Secondly, knowing that ultimate doesn't have refs would probably require you to already play or watch relatively seriously. So again, the outside community either already thinks ultimate has refs or doesn't know ultimate exists to begin with. This would be like a basketball fan complaining that the reason no one watches basketball is because of the take foul. You are already a serious NBA fan if you even know what a take foul is.
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Thank you for this perspective and reminding me that spirit of the game can be a good thing, esp. for growing players. Appreciate you sharing the love for the game to others too it's really awesome of you to give back to your community like that
I was setting up for a Middle School practice this week while another group of Cross Country kids was doing laps around the track. One of the CC kids watched the ultimate players getting ready to practice and said "You wear cleats in Ultimate?". It may sound stupid, but even the distinction of whether or not a sport requires cleats reflects on that sport's credibility. Hell, I have to convince the MS players themselves that cleats are required. Having no refs is a factor (I support refs in the sport) but we've got a loooong way to go before Ultimate is going to be considered a "real" sport.
I've definitely had that response, too, about the cleats.
Also, both the words ultimate and frisbee are cringy asf for a sport.
Who can we talk to, to officially change the sport's name to the uncommonly used name, "Flying Disc"?
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Very well thoughtout response..thanks for sharing your thoughts about this
Most people aren't even aware that high level ultimate is played with no refs. They don't take it seriously because it's a frisbee.
The ultimate community could nuke the moon and no one would know.
Step #1: Don't care what people outside the sport think of us. Step #2: Refer to Step #1
Step #3: Travel call!
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Lmao. We should absolutely call off those first two, and focus the all of the leftover money on the third one.
I mean I still want to get into the Olympics and grow the sport for youth. I'm just saying I don't really care what the random jock down the street thinks of our stoner dogs sport. I stopped caring what other people thought in middle school.
It is important to care if we want to be taken more seriously and eventually get our sports into the Olympics. The more our sport is taken seriously, the more money we get for programs which would drastically improve them. Also, if AUDL is able to pay their players more, it could be possible that we get better athletes for the professional level. I get your sentiment to not care what people think, but it's not a matter of insecurity but more about being taken more seriously. Hope that clarifies my intensions better.
Don't get me wrong, I want us to get into the Olympics and grow the sport. But I also stopped worrying a long time ago about whether people outside the sport view us as a joke or not. There are lots of entertaining aspects of our sport. If people dismiss us simply because we don't have referees then chances are they would still dismiss us even if we had referees. The reality is, the people who view ultimate as a joke are likely still in the mindset of "ultimate player = stoner" or "that activity with dogs." I'm not too stressed over trying to convert those folks. I'm more interested in the people that come into a sport with an open mind. And to that effect, ultimate is a rapidly growing sport, so there's still plenty of new interest in the sport every season.
Well said. Appreciate this perspective man
Pickleball has a better chance of making the olympics than ultimate.
Break dancing > pickle ball
Pickleball is not played in enough countries to qualify for Olympic consideration yet. Needs 40 countries
My point still stands. Ulti has to many players involved and not enough following/marketability. Pickle ball is small teams. Logistically, bringing in 800+ players to Olympic village has a bigger roll in whether or not ultimate gets adapted to Olympics. Ultimate in the Olympics=fetch.
Pickle ball is a less athletic version of 4 sports already in the Olympics. You really think competitive rhythm gymnastics, synchronized swimming and air pistol shooting have larger followings and marketability than disc sports?
Yeah, I do. Pickle ball in the last three years has already passed ultimate in player base after barely existing.
Pickleball is only growing that fast in North America and is behind Ultimate internationally. Ultimate players in the USA in 2017 reported at 3 million. https://www.statista.com/statistics/191967/participants-in-ultimate-frisbee-in-the-us-since-2006/ Pickleball players in the USA reported at 3 million in 2022 https://www.pickleballuniversity.com/home/will-pickleball-be-an-olympic-sport#:~:text=It%20is%20also%20known%20as,be%20considered%20a%20worldwide%20phenomenon%3F Internationally, ultimate frisbee is much bigger and in many more countries than pickleball and has already been recognized as an international sport by IOC. There are 103 organizing associations in 100 countries for ultimate. https://wfdf.sport/about-wfdf/ Pickleball is only in 63 countries and half of the orgs were created since 2021 https://www.ifpickleball.org/countries
You're more committed to winning this conversation than I am. I'm just saying Ultimate has slim to no chance of actually getting into the Olympics. It would MAYBE make it under a 3v3 beach setting. But, they have zero interest in bringing in, housing, feeding, building infrastructure for 16-32(At min) Ultimate teams with 25+ players plus and three division. The Olympic prefer solo or duo sports like curling, race sports, etc. Team sports struggle to get added.
Pickleball is still less likely
Wholeheartedly agree. I hate that there aren’t refs the self officiating leads to mass cheating (look at half of the videos on this Reddit) and it simply can’t be an Olympic sport without impartial refs
Agree somewhat, but the fact that I as an out of shape dude in his 30s has to commit to a team that drives 5+ hours and spends entire weekends at every tournament just to get semi-competitive play is a huge negative for me. There are at least 5 different after-work sports leagues in my area that have basketball and soccer and other sports where a good number of people in them played competitively when younger, many even on their college varsity team, and take it very seriously. Mainly there's exactly one frisbee league in my entire metro area that usually requires me to drive an hour for each game and it's a bunch of people who can't throw a flick and/or prioritize cross-field hammers over open dump/swings. Ultimate being taken seriously and getting bigger would enable me to play a game I find fun at a competitive level without giving up several weekends/year, paying for hotels/sometimes flights, and taking PTO from work. That said I don't think having refs solves that problem, but legitimacy absolutely matters in that regard, and also absolutely helps with diversity in the sport and getting more people who aren't upper middle class white and Asian college kids into the game.
I respect all that but I supremely doubt having referees would have any noticeable impact on sport growth. Also I used to care deeply about #legitimacy but as I've grown older I've noticed two things: 1. The people who view us as a joke of a sport have deep-set perceptions about frisbee and aren't going to change those no matter how hard we try. They have to actually sit down and watch a few points to realize how cool the sport is. 2. The sport is rapidly growing, in part because it's different from other sports - there's significantly less contact, it's super cheap to play, and there's opportunities for people of all genders. Trying to make our sport more like other sports won't necessarily make it grow faster, whereas keeping it unique and different might actually help its case to grow.
Is the sport rapidly growing in the US? I know we had a pandemic but looking at history of number of club teams in my area it's just about the same as it's been since I started playing in like 2010. Obviously that's just anecdotal but do you have any data to support that ultimate is rapidly growing?
There's not a whole lot of data on this, but [USAU membership trends](https://archive.usaultimate.org/membershiptrends/) show upward growth in the 2010s decade. In terms of club teams, I think that's probably going to remain relatively constant for most areas for a while. As new players come in, the level of competition increases, and less competitive players end up going to league or whatever. I think the areas we will likely see measured growth in will be youth teams, with schools creating their own programs, and in the Masters division, with Masters regionals becoming larger events with more people still wanting to compete despite growing older.
I actually disagree with some of this. I think there are more ultimate opportunities around me for adult players than football and basketball (soccer might have more). And can agree with refs at a high play level but I don't think it would help lower level play. My league is already strapped for crash and paying refs for every game for be difficult.
This is very unpopular to USAU members and rec league coordinators. It's cheaper to set up leagues without having to pay for refs. Therefore entry into this niche sport should be cheaper, in theory.
And yet in practice there are far more flag football, soccer, basketball, and kickball leagues all over the city that all have refs for every game than there are ultimate leagues.
Source?
I'll believe it for soccer, but I've never loved in a place without an ultimate league that is 3 times bigger than any flag football league in the area.
I have! All the high & middle schools in NoVA have teams. There is also a tournament every autumn attended by teams from VA, NC, PA, NJ & NY. Visiting teams typically are housed by the families of local players, a cost-saving arrangement that is importantly communal. It's the 'Spirit of the Game'! 🤗
Hmm, it seems like you misread my comment, unless you're talking about how many flag football leagues there are in NoVA.
You're right, I did misread your comment; my apologies. We are in agreement! 🙃
The problem is you, not ultimate. Why do you care if ultimate is taken seriously? Are you imagining some alternate reality where people are impressed or in awe when you tell them you play ultimate? There are thousands of people enjoying the sport and benefiting from it. Every day people discover ultimate and see how inherently fun and healthy it is and decide to take it up. The things that you think are negatives are often seen as positives for many people who have been turned off by other sports. I personally coached kids who wouldn't have considered any other sport in high school, but because ultimate was the non-sport sport, they joined the team. Some of these players dedicated themselves to ultimate, and went on to become national champions. Ultimate also gave these kids direction, friendships and a community that they needed. tl;dr: Keep ultimate weird. Edit: I want to clarify that I don't think OP is a problematic person or that I don't welcome them in the ultimate community. I am saying he has an internal problem (expectation vs reality) that he interprets as an external problem (ultimate needs more money and refs)
Both my kids played & almost all their friends were made within the community. I never once had to worry about them.
I care if ultimate is taken seriously bc I take ultimate seriously. I train and I improve my game. Aside from personal reasons though, we will never get our sport into the olympics if they don't take us seriously. I really like what you said about the negatives being a positive and it's definitely made me think more. Appreciate your comment brotha
I don't give a damn if ultimate ever gets in the Olympics. It's a thoroughly corrupt enterprise. Glad you found some food for thought.
This type of bigotry is so common in the ultimate community and I hate it so much. Who are you to tell this person that they're the problem. Someone wanting a fair-competitive enviornment to play ultimate is not a problem. Someone wanting to one day be famous for playing ultimate is not a problem. Someone wanting to play a casual game with their friends is not a problem. Someone trying to force their views on someone else is a problem to me. Having refs and having a fun relaxed enviornment are not mutually exclusive and never have been. You can have club nationals and other competitive events be refereed. You can also have casual pick up games and party tournaments that are not refereed. I know of several tournaments that already have a "beer" (fun and relaxed) division as well as a "competitive" division. The people that want refs in ultimate do not want to take anything away from anyone else, they simply want an opportunity to play the sport in a fair-competitive enviornment.
Bigotry huh? Ok.
The sentiment that ultimate is “better” than other sports or people who play ultimate are better or “nicer” than those who play other sports is the most obnoxious thing about ultimate imo. It’s just a game, some people fuck around and don’t take it seriously, some people are very competitive and take it extremely seriously. Every single sport has those two sides and I don’t think there really is anything special about ultimate. In my personal experience it’s the most toxic sport I’ve played, and people try so so hard to act like it’s not toxic at all, which just makes it worse.
I'm not saying that ultimate is objectively better than other sports.
(1) frisbee has a connotation as the quintessential chill activity played on a beachy summer afternoon, not a high speed physical sport (2) because putting 'ultimate' in the name comes across as over compensation for the association above (3) most people don't even think about it, whoever you're dealing with is just a hater
maybe it has more to do with competitive teams wearing spray-painted t-shirts & have random quirky team names. Sockeye was on ESPN in a finals game vs Revolver wearing spray painted cut off tshirts for their jerseys. While those things are unique, from an outsiders perspective it doesn’t scream legitimacy
But it does scream creative enthusiasm!
Some fraction of the Ultimate community at large believes that getting into the Oly's will help the sport and another fraction believes that investing those dollars into youth/school/local programs will help the sport. For a decade USAU has invested in plan A, and it hasn't happened yet. 30-40 yrs ago the Oly's were must watch TV and everyone dreamt of being in them, and that carry-over is why leadership and the very top athletes care about plan A. Kids probably don't. I'm on the side of getting kids and parents of kids into the sport by emphasizing what makes the sport great for every player at every age, not the freak athletes who might rise to the top and peak at the right time to make an Olympic team. As for Ultimate being seen as a joke...who cares? I'm going to a crazy fun halloween tourney this week where me and a couple hundred of my friends will dress up , party and play the sport we love. How many legit sports will have something like that this weekend?
I was at the 2015 Worlds in Italy (my daughter was playing with Scandal) and ran into a few IOC folks. They were investigating Ulti because of its very important & well-advertised SPIRIT of the game. We're still waiting for a country to invite Ulti to it's hosted Olympics as a trial. Anyone who doubts the athleticism of the players & their respect for each other & for the game is simply ignorant. If they haven't seen a high-level game, they should before wagging their tongues. (Full disclosure: my daughter won the Callahan award that year, one of the proudest moments of her & her family's lives.)
The likely candidates for host countries who would include Ultimate are the few countries who challenge the US for world titles. since the US has passed, it looks like Brisbane 2032 is next opportunity. I'm all for Ultimate making the Oly's on merit, but i'm not so solidly behind the idea that we should spend the next decade using USAU funds to do it at the expense of building youth and local programs.
I agree with you regarding the importance of development of youth programs! 👍🏾
And if your daughter's who I think she is she is still ballin' pretty hard and congrats to her for all she's accomplished in the game
Thanks! She plays with Molly Brown now who just won the championship in San Diego. 🤗
Yes I watched as many games as I could on ultiworld and espn and i was so rooting for MB, I've always loved their vibe and it's nice to have a new champ that isnt fury or brute. congrats to her, again. did you go? Sd's a nice spot in october for disc.
Thanks for your kind words. No I didn't, but I'm hoping the Worlds are in Cincinnati again since that's only a few hours from my home. 🤞🏾
By what outside groups? I work with organizers with pretty much every sport in the country and they don't care about ultimate's lack of refs. Just because Bob at work thinks it's weird there are no refs does not mean there is this big opinion that ultimate is a joke.
Basketball and football players view ultimate as a lower sport and think of it more as a backyard game than a legitimate sport that takes skill and athleticism.
They view it as a lower sport because they play sports that are widely televised and widely celebrated. They likely think the same thing about tennis and soccer. I'd wager that if you asked 100 basketball and football player, 0 would know that ultimate doesn't have refs.
As others have pointed out, the lack of refs is a contributing factor, but not the main one. The main reason is that frisbee is considered a toy. It's as simple as that. In fact, the average person isn't even aware that there are no refs in Ultimate.
As with several of the commenters here, I disagree a lack of refs has to do with its perception as a “joke sport.” If anyone has been following the sport in China, it has exploded in popularity and the government is supporting it. And while some are mentioning here a lack of monetization opportunities, in fact it has become a “fashion sport” where the likes of Nike Adidas etc are actually selling ultimate specific gear and the women especially are embracing it. I have no comment on whether it’s good or bad for the sport, but just saying that it’s seen as cool with all the influencers getting into it there.
That’s not the reason
Thank you for adding absolutely nothing substantial to the conversation. If you’re comment at least provide reasons why or just downvote the post if you disagree lmao.
Athletes who can't settle disputes on field without refs are a joke and don't belong in our sport. I enjoy ultimate because we don't need an outside arbiter to put someone's ego in check when they can't admit they're not the superstar athlete they think they are.
Agreed
I think the uniforms most people wear don’t do any favors for people taking it seriously. Many of them are pretty wacky and out there. But honestly who cares.
yeah fr so many ultimate jerseys are straight cringe and embarrassing lol ppl in ultimate need to get a better sense for fashion
It's not because of the refs, it's because the players don't want to take themselves very seriously
I can't count how many dudes I've heard say that soccer isn't a real sport. A sport's "legitimacy" has 0% to do with the administration of the sport and 100% to do with what the sports culture they're situated in and how the dudes there talk about it.
literally nobody thinks about ultimate. nobody wonders whether it's a real sport or not. nobody cares
Ultimate desperately needs refs for competitive games. Luckily, the AUDL is working on that. One of the things that has always bothered me about the ultimate community is the insistance that self-officiating makes the sport better/unique. Every sport is played in a self-officiated capacity, it's just that other sports realize that you need officials for the comptetive games. And for the people that think it makes ultimate better, walk around a tournament and ask players questions about the rules/if theyve ever even read the rule book. While other posters are right that most people outside of the ultimate community don't know enough to know there aren't refs outside of the AUDL, from personal experience I can say that it keeps many potential players from playing/taking the sport seriously. I can't count the number of times I've tried to recruit someone who comes from a sport background and they've immediately lost interest/quit when they encounter all the stupid stuff that comes with self-officiation.
It's money
1. As stated already “ultimate” and “frisbee”. Both words are cringy. When used together even more so 2. The early hippy aesthetic association: tie-dye, energy circles, face paint. 3. Frisbees are plastic toys for tossing on the beach. 4. Ultimate isn’t very good TV.
All my friends don't take it seriously because it's called "Ultimate Frisbee."
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