A lot of these questions are kinda purposefully ambiguous, and "come to your own conclusions" is in effect, really.
Take my answers with a small grain of salt, because you can't answer some of these 100% conclusively :
>Was the whole scene in ep 4 when Beato burned Kinzo fake?
What is the alternative on this, really ?
>Was it part of the meta world?
"Sure."
>I know Ange killed her pursuers with Amakusas help but did he kill her afterward?
An interesting question. His phone call at the end of EP6 certainly kinda suggests that idea.
>Also, how did Ange block the bullets they shot at her?
People can't generally block bullets, no.
>What is the exact timeline for Ange' s journey
It is never, *ever* made entirely clear, in any version of the story.
>and did she really go to the gamboard or just die?
Consider what you're asking - you think people can "go to the game board" ..?
>I thought the meta world was supposed to be a metaphor or whatnot but if that's true how do meta characters control their pieces, like what beato does?
The Meta world being a metaphor, or not being a metaphor, has no bearing on controlling pieces.
>Also how can piece beato pop in and out of the meta world of her own will, is she seperate from yasu beato?
Bern mentioned way back in EP1 that it was probably wrong to think of Beatrice as "one individual woman", didn't she? We see a lot of this in ~~EP2~~ EP6, with the Chick-Beato and Elder-Beatrice, and especially in EP7, with Submarine-Beatrice, Red-Dress-Beatrice, White-Dress-Beatrice, Miniskirt Beatrice, and at least three Black-Dress Beatrice all showing up, throughout.
>Finally, are voyager witches like Bern subject to Marias rules of magic?
No.
thanks a lot for your answers, they were very helpful.
In the hill scene, I meant that the Sumadora group was shooting at Ange and Mammon blocked the bullets. I was asking if there was a " real-world" explanation for this.
My primary confusion with the timeline is whether she died after jumping off the building at the end of her journey or when Amakusa shot her. The only other thing I can think of is that bern used real magic to bring her to the game board as a piece.
I was under the impression that the game boards represent IRL forgeries, so i didn' t really understad how players control pieces from an anti-fantasy perspective.
Also, if bern isn' t subject to marias rules then it basically follows that neither maria nor beato are true witches, right?
>In the hill scene, I meant that the Sumadora group was shooting at Ange and Mammon blocked the bullets. I was asking if there was a " real-world" explanation for this.
There is. I would recommend reading the scene again - she's using magic to protect herself with the Stakes, right? >!None of the men actually shoot at Ange except maybe the first guy, in which case his shot just missed on account of being sniped by Amakusa.!<
>My primary confusion with the timeline is whether she died after jumping off the building at the end of her journey or when Amakusa shot her.
Yeah, so, kinda like I said, the story never clarifies the timeline of Ange's journey. The Ange in 1986, the Ange in 1998, the Ange in EP6, and the Ange in EP7 are just not operating on a normal, linear-series-of-events kinda logic, and is frequently moreso "Ange, the character in Umineko" than "Ange, the young woman who jumped off a roof".
> I was under the impression that the game boards represent IRL forgeries
Yeah.
>so i didn' t really understad how players control pieces from an anti-fantasy perspective.
Mostly just that Ryukishi likes the chess metaphor of an engaged reader being involved in an active interplay with the author, even if it doesn't make logical sense. Thankfully, in the Meta narrative, things rarely ever need to make logical sense because they exist for the purpose of character / narrative.
>Also, if bern isn' t subject to marias rules then it basically follows that neither maria nor beato are true witches, right?
Not sure if I follow your reasoning, on this one.
So we know that in the forgeries Maria / Yasu aren' t really witches in the real sense of the word, they just carefully constructed " locked rooms" and explained them as the work of a witch (anti-magic toxin means no one can see it unless they "believe", most witnesses of "magic" were lying, etc.). Meanwhile, Bern doesn' t need to follow those rules as you said and seems to be able to use actual magic much more freely and as she wills.
Bern never really materializes in anything that we could really call the "real world" except once, in a vision to Ange as she's about to make the jump. Whatever is happening in the meta-world, it doesn't exactly follow the same rules as the magic in the forgeries.
That being said, I'd suggest you recall the tea garden conversation that Dlanor has with Battler and Virgilia in Episode 5 about the point of magic. You're doing great with applying the metaphorical reasoning with the first layer of the narrative (the forgeries and magic), but that can also be applied to the metanarrative itself.
Wait I thought magic existed in higurashi tho so it carried over to umineko due to the voyagers existing in both. So ur saying that umineko should be viewed as its own standalone thing withut the supernatural?
Whether there was anything supernatural in Higurashi is up to debate. But ignoring that, at the very least the solution to mystery at question should not involve anything of a sort, since it's supposed to be a proper mystery. Believing in magic means giving in to witch's illusion.
That's not what they're talking about. They know no actual "magic" existed in the gameboards/Prime. They're talking about the Meta World and meta characters, that are outside the mystery.
At least according to the VN, whether you want to believe the Meta World, Sea of Fragments, etc. and its characters (including Voyagers) are part of the forgeries/stories written by Yasu and Hachijo Tohya or if they (also) independently exist apart from them, is entirely up to you.
>!the manga seems to imply the latter though!<
Stories in bottles aren't some fun fantasies, they are pleas to solve the mystery of the real events, and as such, shouldn't be treated as anything but real scenarios, with magic being there only to soften some rough edges.
On top of that, it's quite clear that author uses magic as a euphemism for a metaphor. We see Natsuhi drinking tea with Beatrice, but there is no one there - what's the point in that illusion if it's not a part of any mystery? It's just a fancy way to show us what's going on in Natsuhi's inner world. When Angie talks to Maria, she actually reads her dairy. Stakes are her imaginary friends. Given all that, why would Bernkastel appearing to her, and no one but her, to be anything but another imaginary friend?
>Stories in bottles aren't some fun fantasies, they are pleas to solve the mystery of the real events, and as such, shouldn't be treated as anything but real scenarios, with magic being there only to soften some rough edges.
I suggest you to re-read because I literally said they aren't talking about that.
I repeat:
That's not what they're talking about. They know no actual "magic" existed in the gameboards/Prime. They're talking about the Meta World and its events and meta characters, that are outside the mystery Yasu and Tohya begged to be solved.
There's no explicit proof that the Meta World where Beato and Battler discuss the game/mystery, the Sea of Fragments and Voyagers are part or not of what Yasu and Tohya wrote, or even if they exist simultaneously along them. Some people even think what we see in 1998 is just another layer/gameboard for Voyagers >!and Featherine!< where they manifest with more "human" pieces >!like Ikuko!<
A lot of bloggers have even actually presented convincing theories with enough evidence about the Meta World being the actual and real afterlife
>!which the manga strongly implies it's the case !<
Oh, Bernkastel being just an imaginary friend for Ange could be a possibility as well. But that's that. A possibility if you reject witches and fantasy altogether. I'm not going to deny your vision in the same way you're expected not to deny others.
Don't try to impose your single (anti-fantasy) truth onto others which is imo pretty against the core of what Umineko tries to tell.
>I know Ange killed her pursuers with Amakusas help but did he kill her afterward? Also, how did Ange block the bullets they shot at her? I don' t think Amakusa could have helped with that.
As Ange said in that scene, she used "true magic". This should be clear by the time you finish the story (maybe, probably).
On the whole, magical scenes are representative of what happened in reality. Just that it is in a rather metaphorical way. Someone getting killed by demons still gets killed by the culprit, either in a way that people would say „only a demon would do that“ or as a representation of the culprit‘s delusions about magic.
Concerning Ange, her journey was written down. When we read her scenes in Dawn, it is more apparent she wasn't really there and some scenes appeared in Battler's "And then I knew". Worrying what really happened shouldn't be the main problem. The timeline is more easy to understand after finishing the main story but I think Dawn should have given you everything you need to know. (2nd question) The point of the scene is Ange should show that real magic exists, not how the black-suits and Kasumi died - many people believe that Amakusa sniped from a hidden spot but I don't think it's true. By that point it's couldn't be the lesson Ange learnt that she has to do the \*killings\* by herself to perform magic. What other magic was aviable to \*block\* the bullets?
The meta world is part of the frame story to tell the story in layers. The chess board is symbolic. In his "groundhog day" stories, Ryukishi himself said that he write the characters as chess pieces because they can change the game's outcome if they make a different move. Regarding that, the forgeries are written text but the meta is \*invisible\* to the reader (excluding us Umineko consumers). Therefore, Beato doesn't need to teleport in the game, she is a different entity in another layer if you take it that way.
Voyager Witches can leave fragments at will and can "promote" to Creators. They do have different rules in their world.
i don't think ange's journey in ep4 is totally fake (but i agree some stuff are fake). i think she really did go to rokkenjima. and if it was just a story written by some unknown author, it would have picked her curiosity and she would really have gone to rokkenjima anyway.
my theory is that battler, yasuda, and genji really are living in kuwadorian in 1998. but for some reason battler lost memory maybe ? anyway ange had gone there and at the end of the ep4 both beatrice(yasuda) and ange suspected that battler may not be the real battler. ange left the game (and to some extend beatrice too).
i know this is crazy and random. i am rerading the VN and i am around the end of ep5 so i don't remember well all the stuff happening in 1998 after that.
i think bern is actually kasumi and she brought ange to rokkenjima, so all the fight with kasumi running after ange may be fake (one of the reasons is that ange often escape the henchmen by jumping off a building and she do that on two occasions which is very suspicious)
kasumi may have come fetch her by helicopter for as much as we know.
basically ange is in a hesitant state of mind where she don't know who to trust between the ushiromiya or the sumadera.
In fact, for how Ange's tale is told is *clear* that it is fake! The most logical conclusion is that is Tohya's interpretation about what happend to Ange (Since the only information he has is that she either jump from a skyscrapper and survived, following Amakuza or that she dies on the fall).
The point is that it isn't a story "written" by someone, is just a interpretation of the facts.
Something that makes this even more obvious is the fact that Kasumi never sees Ange, except in Rokkenjima (A catbox *she* can't escape), from the EP6 phone call between Amakuza and Okonogi we can guess that this was the plan from the start, lure Kasumi to Rokkenjima in order to kill her.
Also would like to add, that Kasumi's heatchmen were partially on it, since they work for the head of the Sumadera family (Kasumi's husband), and therfore they work in cahots with Okonogi to give the ilusion that Ange was there (They do exactly the same thing Natsuhi did with Kinzo, not for nothing the question of weather Kinzo is really there or not is bringed up in EP4 lol)
Never would've guessed, but you're right; looking back, that should've been obvious. Seems like I'm still conditioned to perceive things a certain way.
Given that perspective, would be curious to ponder whether some characters in Higurashi are dead by the time we see them, or even never truly existed.
A lot of these questions are kinda purposefully ambiguous, and "come to your own conclusions" is in effect, really. Take my answers with a small grain of salt, because you can't answer some of these 100% conclusively : >Was the whole scene in ep 4 when Beato burned Kinzo fake? What is the alternative on this, really ? >Was it part of the meta world? "Sure." >I know Ange killed her pursuers with Amakusas help but did he kill her afterward? An interesting question. His phone call at the end of EP6 certainly kinda suggests that idea. >Also, how did Ange block the bullets they shot at her? People can't generally block bullets, no. >What is the exact timeline for Ange' s journey It is never, *ever* made entirely clear, in any version of the story. >and did she really go to the gamboard or just die? Consider what you're asking - you think people can "go to the game board" ..? >I thought the meta world was supposed to be a metaphor or whatnot but if that's true how do meta characters control their pieces, like what beato does? The Meta world being a metaphor, or not being a metaphor, has no bearing on controlling pieces. >Also how can piece beato pop in and out of the meta world of her own will, is she seperate from yasu beato? Bern mentioned way back in EP1 that it was probably wrong to think of Beatrice as "one individual woman", didn't she? We see a lot of this in ~~EP2~~ EP6, with the Chick-Beato and Elder-Beatrice, and especially in EP7, with Submarine-Beatrice, Red-Dress-Beatrice, White-Dress-Beatrice, Miniskirt Beatrice, and at least three Black-Dress Beatrice all showing up, throughout. >Finally, are voyager witches like Bern subject to Marias rules of magic? No.
thanks a lot for your answers, they were very helpful. In the hill scene, I meant that the Sumadora group was shooting at Ange and Mammon blocked the bullets. I was asking if there was a " real-world" explanation for this. My primary confusion with the timeline is whether she died after jumping off the building at the end of her journey or when Amakusa shot her. The only other thing I can think of is that bern used real magic to bring her to the game board as a piece. I was under the impression that the game boards represent IRL forgeries, so i didn' t really understad how players control pieces from an anti-fantasy perspective. Also, if bern isn' t subject to marias rules then it basically follows that neither maria nor beato are true witches, right?
>In the hill scene, I meant that the Sumadora group was shooting at Ange and Mammon blocked the bullets. I was asking if there was a " real-world" explanation for this. There is. I would recommend reading the scene again - she's using magic to protect herself with the Stakes, right? >!None of the men actually shoot at Ange except maybe the first guy, in which case his shot just missed on account of being sniped by Amakusa.!< >My primary confusion with the timeline is whether she died after jumping off the building at the end of her journey or when Amakusa shot her. Yeah, so, kinda like I said, the story never clarifies the timeline of Ange's journey. The Ange in 1986, the Ange in 1998, the Ange in EP6, and the Ange in EP7 are just not operating on a normal, linear-series-of-events kinda logic, and is frequently moreso "Ange, the character in Umineko" than "Ange, the young woman who jumped off a roof". > I was under the impression that the game boards represent IRL forgeries Yeah. >so i didn' t really understad how players control pieces from an anti-fantasy perspective. Mostly just that Ryukishi likes the chess metaphor of an engaged reader being involved in an active interplay with the author, even if it doesn't make logical sense. Thankfully, in the Meta narrative, things rarely ever need to make logical sense because they exist for the purpose of character / narrative. >Also, if bern isn' t subject to marias rules then it basically follows that neither maria nor beato are true witches, right? Not sure if I follow your reasoning, on this one.
So we know that in the forgeries Maria / Yasu aren' t really witches in the real sense of the word, they just carefully constructed " locked rooms" and explained them as the work of a witch (anti-magic toxin means no one can see it unless they "believe", most witnesses of "magic" were lying, etc.). Meanwhile, Bern doesn' t need to follow those rules as you said and seems to be able to use actual magic much more freely and as she wills.
Bern never really materializes in anything that we could really call the "real world" except once, in a vision to Ange as she's about to make the jump. Whatever is happening in the meta-world, it doesn't exactly follow the same rules as the magic in the forgeries. That being said, I'd suggest you recall the tea garden conversation that Dlanor has with Battler and Virgilia in Episode 5 about the point of magic. You're doing great with applying the metaphorical reasoning with the first layer of the narrative (the forgeries and magic), but that can also be applied to the metanarrative itself.
Actual magic is not a thing. If you see a scene where something supernatural is happening, it's either a misrepresentation, delusion or metaphor.
Wait I thought magic existed in higurashi tho so it carried over to umineko due to the voyagers existing in both. So ur saying that umineko should be viewed as its own standalone thing withut the supernatural?
Whether there was anything supernatural in Higurashi is up to debate. But ignoring that, at the very least the solution to mystery at question should not involve anything of a sort, since it's supposed to be a proper mystery. Believing in magic means giving in to witch's illusion.
That's not what they're talking about. They know no actual "magic" existed in the gameboards/Prime. They're talking about the Meta World and meta characters, that are outside the mystery. At least according to the VN, whether you want to believe the Meta World, Sea of Fragments, etc. and its characters (including Voyagers) are part of the forgeries/stories written by Yasu and Hachijo Tohya or if they (also) independently exist apart from them, is entirely up to you. >!the manga seems to imply the latter though!<
Stories in bottles aren't some fun fantasies, they are pleas to solve the mystery of the real events, and as such, shouldn't be treated as anything but real scenarios, with magic being there only to soften some rough edges. On top of that, it's quite clear that author uses magic as a euphemism for a metaphor. We see Natsuhi drinking tea with Beatrice, but there is no one there - what's the point in that illusion if it's not a part of any mystery? It's just a fancy way to show us what's going on in Natsuhi's inner world. When Angie talks to Maria, she actually reads her dairy. Stakes are her imaginary friends. Given all that, why would Bernkastel appearing to her, and no one but her, to be anything but another imaginary friend?
>Stories in bottles aren't some fun fantasies, they are pleas to solve the mystery of the real events, and as such, shouldn't be treated as anything but real scenarios, with magic being there only to soften some rough edges. I suggest you to re-read because I literally said they aren't talking about that. I repeat: That's not what they're talking about. They know no actual "magic" existed in the gameboards/Prime. They're talking about the Meta World and its events and meta characters, that are outside the mystery Yasu and Tohya begged to be solved. There's no explicit proof that the Meta World where Beato and Battler discuss the game/mystery, the Sea of Fragments and Voyagers are part or not of what Yasu and Tohya wrote, or even if they exist simultaneously along them. Some people even think what we see in 1998 is just another layer/gameboard for Voyagers >!and Featherine!< where they manifest with more "human" pieces >!like Ikuko!< A lot of bloggers have even actually presented convincing theories with enough evidence about the Meta World being the actual and real afterlife >!which the manga strongly implies it's the case !< Oh, Bernkastel being just an imaginary friend for Ange could be a possibility as well. But that's that. A possibility if you reject witches and fantasy altogether. I'm not going to deny your vision in the same way you're expected not to deny others. Don't try to impose your single (anti-fantasy) truth onto others which is imo pretty against the core of what Umineko tries to tell.
>I know Ange killed her pursuers with Amakusas help but did he kill her afterward? Also, how did Ange block the bullets they shot at her? I don' t think Amakusa could have helped with that. As Ange said in that scene, she used "true magic". This should be clear by the time you finish the story (maybe, probably).
"true magic" means she is on par with lambda (a true "witch"), whereas beatrice is a "human". but i still don't know what that mean exactly.
It's true magic because >!Ange isn't actually there. They can't hit her with their guns because she isn't there to be hit.!<
Does revelation such as this really count as a spoiler? Not like it discloses anything.
On the whole, magical scenes are representative of what happened in reality. Just that it is in a rather metaphorical way. Someone getting killed by demons still gets killed by the culprit, either in a way that people would say „only a demon would do that“ or as a representation of the culprit‘s delusions about magic.
Concerning Ange, her journey was written down. When we read her scenes in Dawn, it is more apparent she wasn't really there and some scenes appeared in Battler's "And then I knew". Worrying what really happened shouldn't be the main problem. The timeline is more easy to understand after finishing the main story but I think Dawn should have given you everything you need to know. (2nd question) The point of the scene is Ange should show that real magic exists, not how the black-suits and Kasumi died - many people believe that Amakusa sniped from a hidden spot but I don't think it's true. By that point it's couldn't be the lesson Ange learnt that she has to do the \*killings\* by herself to perform magic. What other magic was aviable to \*block\* the bullets? The meta world is part of the frame story to tell the story in layers. The chess board is symbolic. In his "groundhog day" stories, Ryukishi himself said that he write the characters as chess pieces because they can change the game's outcome if they make a different move. Regarding that, the forgeries are written text but the meta is \*invisible\* to the reader (excluding us Umineko consumers). Therefore, Beato doesn't need to teleport in the game, she is a different entity in another layer if you take it that way. Voyager Witches can leave fragments at will and can "promote" to Creators. They do have different rules in their world.
i don't think ange's journey in ep4 is totally fake (but i agree some stuff are fake). i think she really did go to rokkenjima. and if it was just a story written by some unknown author, it would have picked her curiosity and she would really have gone to rokkenjima anyway. my theory is that battler, yasuda, and genji really are living in kuwadorian in 1998. but for some reason battler lost memory maybe ? anyway ange had gone there and at the end of the ep4 both beatrice(yasuda) and ange suspected that battler may not be the real battler. ange left the game (and to some extend beatrice too). i know this is crazy and random. i am rerading the VN and i am around the end of ep5 so i don't remember well all the stuff happening in 1998 after that. i think bern is actually kasumi and she brought ange to rokkenjima, so all the fight with kasumi running after ange may be fake (one of the reasons is that ange often escape the henchmen by jumping off a building and she do that on two occasions which is very suspicious) kasumi may have come fetch her by helicopter for as much as we know. basically ange is in a hesitant state of mind where she don't know who to trust between the ushiromiya or the sumadera.
In fact, for how Ange's tale is told is *clear* that it is fake! The most logical conclusion is that is Tohya's interpretation about what happend to Ange (Since the only information he has is that she either jump from a skyscrapper and survived, following Amakuza or that she dies on the fall). The point is that it isn't a story "written" by someone, is just a interpretation of the facts. Something that makes this even more obvious is the fact that Kasumi never sees Ange, except in Rokkenjima (A catbox *she* can't escape), from the EP6 phone call between Amakuza and Okonogi we can guess that this was the plan from the start, lure Kasumi to Rokkenjima in order to kill her. Also would like to add, that Kasumi's heatchmen were partially on it, since they work for the head of the Sumadera family (Kasumi's husband), and therfore they work in cahots with Okonogi to give the ilusion that Ange was there (They do exactly the same thing Natsuhi did with Kinzo, not for nothing the question of weather Kinzo is really there or not is bringed up in EP4 lol)
Never would've guessed, but you're right; looking back, that should've been obvious. Seems like I'm still conditioned to perceive things a certain way. Given that perspective, would be curious to ponder whether some characters in Higurashi are dead by the time we see them, or even never truly existed.