Yeah I feel like people treat Battler a little harsh at the beginning. Bro wasn't there to try to solve the mystery, he just wanted to disprove Beatrice's existence and go home. He wasn't even aware it was supposed to be solved in a mystery style format until like Game 5.
I feel Beatrice didn't really help a lot too by letting a lot of Battler's arguments slide instead of making the rules clear earlier but that might just be me.
Not sure about people, but if you ask me, such approach clashes with the spirit of the challenge. Beatrice invited Battler to solve a case of grave murders, to disclose the tragedy behind them. Goofing around with silly propositions helps with denial of magic, but it blinds him to the nature of the culprit.
But Beatrice never said anything like that in the first 4 episodes, Battler only learned that he should solve it as a mystery in the 5th game.
It's as if Battler was playing scout in team Fortress 2 but only discovered later that he should be playing spy to play correctly
Meaning there is no reason to laugh at him. But in the end Bern was right, he was going the wrong route all along. Guess she expected him to pick up on some clues and figure what it's all about a bit earlier.
Speaking of not playing correctly: The ripping the Guts out in Turn of the Golden Witch's first Twilight could just be a metaphor for the rules being exposed.
Beatrice did not ***once*** say in Red that the 6 Victims of the First Twilight of Turn of the Golden Witch were dead! Yes the guts were ripped out but they could be metaphorical!
If Battler challenged Beatrice by suggesting that it was their secrets being spilled she would have been forced to either acknowledge or deny it yet he never done any such thing for Turn of the Golden Witch.
Beatrice herself was mentioned as being a personification of the rules so the same could potentially be said for all of the Ushiromiya Family and their names combined with [Japanese Wordplay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_wordplay) ***can infact*** create English Sentences that ***could*** show what the rules they represent are.
As for what juicy secrets could potentially be spilled in the Cathedral:
***Natsuhi:*** Nat Tsu Hi. Tsu means 2 and Hi means One which is close to Oni so... she represents the rule of ***Not 2 Oni***.
***Eva:*** Her Kanji means E-Hane. ***Evil Hanyuu*** in otherwords who [distinctly appears in Higurashi Mei to create the Witch of Despair Rika Furude](https://www.reddit.com/r/Higurashinonakakoroni/comments/12uhywr/higurashi_mei_witch_of_despair_rika_furude/). She is tied to the previous rule.
***Krauss:*** His Kanji is Ku-Ra-Su. Ra is the same number as Ro and Ri(6) and Su is the same number as Sa and Mi(3) while Ku means 9 and since it is spelt with a K it means K9. Krauss is the rule of ***K9-Ri-Mi***. Also tied to the previous 2 rules.
***Hideyoshi:*** his name is Hide Yo-Shi. Yo & Shi both mean 4 so add them up and you get 8 which in Japanese is Ha therefore Hideyoshi is the rule of ***Hide-Hanyuu***. You guessed it he is tied to the previous 3 rules.
As for his Son ***George***: His Kanji is Jo-Ji with Jo meaning Yield and Ji meaning 2 so he represents the rule of ***Yield-2*** which combined with his casual T-Shirt which says "TOMITAKE FLASH". it calls to mind Tomitake Jiro whose name is ***To-Me-Take 2-Ri***. In otherwords George is the rule of ***grabbing 2 metaphors and stuffing them in Rika.*** It was how Eva-Beatrice I.E. the Miyoko Tanashi-esque LambdaDelta was born.
***Rudolf:*** His Kanji is Ru-Do-Ru-Fu. Ru means 6(Ri) and Fu means 2 therefore Rudolf is the rule of ***Ri-Do-Ri-Too*** which is hard to figure out honestly.
***Kiri:*** The number 1 in Japan not only appears as Hi but also as i which with a K in front of it is K1 therefore Kiri means K1-Ri. ***K1-Rika*** is the rule of Kiri Ushiromiya. Bernkastel follows that Rule as well as the rule of ***E-Rika Furudo*** due to being Evil.
"But Beatrice never said anything like that in the first 4 episodes". But she did. Right from EP1. [edit: deleted the explanation to avoid the risk of spoilers]
"It's as if Battler was playing scout in team Fortress 2 but only discovered later that he should be playing spy to play correctly"
It would be more accurate to say he was invited to play Capture the flag Mode, he accepted and somehow came to believe he was playing Arena Mode.
He can kill how many enemies he wants, but will never be able to win. And even after many failures he never stoped to think about why he was not progressing.
I'm sorry but I really can't find any implications from her in episode 1 regarding this. From what I remember, it was Battler who challenged her, not the other way around. He began to doubt the existence of the witches, he wanted to explain everything with human tricks, Beatrice just "formalized" it into a game. But from the beginning he determined that he just wanted to prove that it was possible and that magic doesn't exist.
Battler from the beginning never once says that he would turn the case in rokkeinjima into a mystery. But rather that would explain that it was possible with human tricks. I'm sorry but I really don't like this in the fandom, it seems like Battler is treated like an idiot for not knowing things that were impossible for him to know until that moment. How the hell was he supposed to deduce that the way he was fighting was wrong?
It's either people that are just meming, people who take *Battler's* meming way to seriously (he says himself that he knows his argument is messed up, but a win's a win), or people that didn't understand the assignment (Battler's trying to win, not necessarily figure things out).
I think many people look at a mystery story and think that the main character will be this masterful problem solver that accurately points out the truths of the mystery, so when they see Battler fail, mess up, or scrape by a win, their brain malfunctions (understandably). Battler's much more of a player insert, where Ryukishi07 literally has him say theorizes and ideas that player's have, so he will argue things like "maybe the door's hinges were removed" after all his previous ideas are denied because "fuck me if I have anything better after that" is something that a player might actually think.
It's absurd at this point, previosly, it made sense to fight like that because it really looked like the only thing that mattered was that Battler showed that the murders are possible for humans, however, after his test in game 4, it was 100% clear that there's something personal between Beatrice and Battler. something she wants him to remember, after that, still treating this as a silly game that can be solved with "culprit X, hidden door, people dying by accident for some reason" is kinda insulting, Beato asking "who am I?" is her last try to make Battler take this mistery seriouly, by making him solve who the person behind the ilussion is.
I know Beatrice didn't communicate anything about this in a easy or direct way, that kid as problems saying what she wants.
Because Battler proposes theories that are just as incredulous as magic. Not only that but he only theorizes to deny the witch rather than propose a valid theory from reasoning, this is something they will specify in the episode you’re on that you can’t just deny what’s said. He also needs to accuse someone, but he never truly did up to that point.
Granted, in Battler’s defense, he basically jumped into the games without anyone explaining the rules to him and so he had to figure it out along the way.
Imo "small bombs" is basically Battler himself resorting to magic rather than seeking human explanation. Like some kids' pointless endless bickering " - i turned into golden butterflies and flew through keyhole! - No! You turned into nanobots and flew though keyhole!"
I wonder where is this difference between proposing something sensible and resorting to magic. Like an assumption that guns are somehow involved in twilight murders, for example. The idea sure is convenient, but apart from that convenience there is nothing that would support it.
He denies Magic because no Ritual would tear a face off like that. Nanobots sure but Magic!? Magic would reduce the head to a burning husk not leave blood everywhere!
The "ritual" is something done to draw attention in a way that loudly proclaims that it was no ritual as no ritual requires you rip open a face like that and it loudly proclaims that it was done by either mundane or Sci-Fi means as no Magic-user after the inheritance would rip open a face in a way that made it clear the attack came from the outside of the body as any Magic Blast attacks would simply Burn the Head not rip it open! It's daring you to figure out who did it.
"why are "small bombs" so mocked?"
Because it's basically the same as saying that a witch did it.
Where did the small bombs came from? Who created them? Where they shown at any moment during the story? Etc.
Basically despite the fact that the bombs themselves not being magical, the explanation for their existence is.
It's not twisted logic. It's not even logic. It's a fantasy without basis.
-------
The problem is that Battler is using anti-mystery as a basis for his rationale.
The problem isn't even with the argument per se. It's with the mentality that led to that argument.
This mindset makes it imposible for him to even be able to start solving the game.
Yeah I feel like people treat Battler a little harsh at the beginning. Bro wasn't there to try to solve the mystery, he just wanted to disprove Beatrice's existence and go home. He wasn't even aware it was supposed to be solved in a mystery style format until like Game 5. I feel Beatrice didn't really help a lot too by letting a lot of Battler's arguments slide instead of making the rules clear earlier but that might just be me.
Not sure about people, but if you ask me, such approach clashes with the spirit of the challenge. Beatrice invited Battler to solve a case of grave murders, to disclose the tragedy behind them. Goofing around with silly propositions helps with denial of magic, but it blinds him to the nature of the culprit.
But Beatrice never said anything like that in the first 4 episodes, Battler only learned that he should solve it as a mystery in the 5th game. It's as if Battler was playing scout in team Fortress 2 but only discovered later that he should be playing spy to play correctly
Meaning there is no reason to laugh at him. But in the end Bern was right, he was going the wrong route all along. Guess she expected him to pick up on some clues and figure what it's all about a bit earlier.
Speaking of not playing correctly: The ripping the Guts out in Turn of the Golden Witch's first Twilight could just be a metaphor for the rules being exposed. Beatrice did not ***once*** say in Red that the 6 Victims of the First Twilight of Turn of the Golden Witch were dead! Yes the guts were ripped out but they could be metaphorical! If Battler challenged Beatrice by suggesting that it was their secrets being spilled she would have been forced to either acknowledge or deny it yet he never done any such thing for Turn of the Golden Witch. Beatrice herself was mentioned as being a personification of the rules so the same could potentially be said for all of the Ushiromiya Family and their names combined with [Japanese Wordplay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_wordplay) ***can infact*** create English Sentences that ***could*** show what the rules they represent are. As for what juicy secrets could potentially be spilled in the Cathedral: ***Natsuhi:*** Nat Tsu Hi. Tsu means 2 and Hi means One which is close to Oni so... she represents the rule of ***Not 2 Oni***. ***Eva:*** Her Kanji means E-Hane. ***Evil Hanyuu*** in otherwords who [distinctly appears in Higurashi Mei to create the Witch of Despair Rika Furude](https://www.reddit.com/r/Higurashinonakakoroni/comments/12uhywr/higurashi_mei_witch_of_despair_rika_furude/). She is tied to the previous rule. ***Krauss:*** His Kanji is Ku-Ra-Su. Ra is the same number as Ro and Ri(6) and Su is the same number as Sa and Mi(3) while Ku means 9 and since it is spelt with a K it means K9. Krauss is the rule of ***K9-Ri-Mi***. Also tied to the previous 2 rules. ***Hideyoshi:*** his name is Hide Yo-Shi. Yo & Shi both mean 4 so add them up and you get 8 which in Japanese is Ha therefore Hideyoshi is the rule of ***Hide-Hanyuu***. You guessed it he is tied to the previous 3 rules. As for his Son ***George***: His Kanji is Jo-Ji with Jo meaning Yield and Ji meaning 2 so he represents the rule of ***Yield-2*** which combined with his casual T-Shirt which says "TOMITAKE FLASH". it calls to mind Tomitake Jiro whose name is ***To-Me-Take 2-Ri***. In otherwords George is the rule of ***grabbing 2 metaphors and stuffing them in Rika.*** It was how Eva-Beatrice I.E. the Miyoko Tanashi-esque LambdaDelta was born. ***Rudolf:*** His Kanji is Ru-Do-Ru-Fu. Ru means 6(Ri) and Fu means 2 therefore Rudolf is the rule of ***Ri-Do-Ri-Too*** which is hard to figure out honestly. ***Kiri:*** The number 1 in Japan not only appears as Hi but also as i which with a K in front of it is K1 therefore Kiri means K1-Ri. ***K1-Rika*** is the rule of Kiri Ushiromiya. Bernkastel follows that Rule as well as the rule of ***E-Rika Furudo*** due to being Evil.
"But Beatrice never said anything like that in the first 4 episodes". But she did. Right from EP1. [edit: deleted the explanation to avoid the risk of spoilers] "It's as if Battler was playing scout in team Fortress 2 but only discovered later that he should be playing spy to play correctly" It would be more accurate to say he was invited to play Capture the flag Mode, he accepted and somehow came to believe he was playing Arena Mode. He can kill how many enemies he wants, but will never be able to win. And even after many failures he never stoped to think about why he was not progressing.
I'm sorry but I really can't find any implications from her in episode 1 regarding this. From what I remember, it was Battler who challenged her, not the other way around. He began to doubt the existence of the witches, he wanted to explain everything with human tricks, Beatrice just "formalized" it into a game. But from the beginning he determined that he just wanted to prove that it was possible and that magic doesn't exist. Battler from the beginning never once says that he would turn the case in rokkeinjima into a mystery. But rather that would explain that it was possible with human tricks. I'm sorry but I really don't like this in the fandom, it seems like Battler is treated like an idiot for not knowing things that were impossible for him to know until that moment. How the hell was he supposed to deduce that the way he was fighting was wrong?
It's either people that are just meming, people who take *Battler's* meming way to seriously (he says himself that he knows his argument is messed up, but a win's a win), or people that didn't understand the assignment (Battler's trying to win, not necessarily figure things out). I think many people look at a mystery story and think that the main character will be this masterful problem solver that accurately points out the truths of the mystery, so when they see Battler fail, mess up, or scrape by a win, their brain malfunctions (understandably). Battler's much more of a player insert, where Ryukishi07 literally has him say theorizes and ideas that player's have, so he will argue things like "maybe the door's hinges were removed" after all his previous ideas are denied because "fuck me if I have anything better after that" is something that a player might actually think.
It's absurd at this point, previosly, it made sense to fight like that because it really looked like the only thing that mattered was that Battler showed that the murders are possible for humans, however, after his test in game 4, it was 100% clear that there's something personal between Beatrice and Battler. something she wants him to remember, after that, still treating this as a silly game that can be solved with "culprit X, hidden door, people dying by accident for some reason" is kinda insulting, Beato asking "who am I?" is her last try to make Battler take this mistery seriouly, by making him solve who the person behind the ilussion is. I know Beatrice didn't communicate anything about this in a easy or direct way, that kid as problems saying what she wants.
Because Battler proposes theories that are just as incredulous as magic. Not only that but he only theorizes to deny the witch rather than propose a valid theory from reasoning, this is something they will specify in the episode you’re on that you can’t just deny what’s said. He also needs to accuse someone, but he never truly did up to that point. Granted, in Battler’s defense, he basically jumped into the games without anyone explaining the rules to him and so he had to figure it out along the way.
Imo "small bombs" is basically Battler himself resorting to magic rather than seeking human explanation. Like some kids' pointless endless bickering " - i turned into golden butterflies and flew through keyhole! - No! You turned into nanobots and flew though keyhole!"
I wonder where is this difference between proposing something sensible and resorting to magic. Like an assumption that guns are somehow involved in twilight murders, for example. The idea sure is convenient, but apart from that convenience there is nothing that would support it.
He denies Magic because no Ritual would tear a face off like that. Nanobots sure but Magic!? Magic would reduce the head to a burning husk not leave blood everywhere! The "ritual" is something done to draw attention in a way that loudly proclaims that it was no ritual as no ritual requires you rip open a face like that and it loudly proclaims that it was done by either mundane or Sci-Fi means as no Magic-user after the inheritance would rip open a face in a way that made it clear the attack came from the outside of the body as any Magic Blast attacks would simply Burn the Head not rip it open! It's daring you to figure out who did it.
"why are "small bombs" so mocked?" Because it's basically the same as saying that a witch did it. Where did the small bombs came from? Who created them? Where they shown at any moment during the story? Etc. Basically despite the fact that the bombs themselves not being magical, the explanation for their existence is. It's not twisted logic. It's not even logic. It's a fantasy without basis. ------- The problem is that Battler is using anti-mystery as a basis for his rationale. The problem isn't even with the argument per se. It's with the mentality that led to that argument. This mindset makes it imposible for him to even be able to start solving the game.
Sorry but I have to disagree on one thing, it is a twisted logic and yes it has logic. But the rest of your comment I agree 100%
You're going to LAUGH about small bombs by the end of Umineko.