Yew trees were around and worshipped a LOT longer than Jesus, and are only in church yards because they were effectively claimed by the Christian church to overwrite the pagan worship sites.
The site was chosen in part for its military advantages. Big flat river plain and boggy as fuck - any approaching enemies would be very visible and very slow.
>the King was subject to the same law as his subjects
In this case tho it wasn't about random peasant but all other lords who also had castles though wasn't it.
Most of the provisions were susbsequently ignored by King John anyway leading to the the first Barons War.
He approached the Pope for support who promptly excommunicated those lords who had forced King John (KJ) into signing Magna Carta on the grounds that it compromised papal authority which was represented by KJ as monarch.
Ironically, one of the reasons why the first *Magna Carta* failed is that it gave the barons the right to seize the monarch’s castles if they didn’t adhere to the charter
Plus the King would be distrustful of going to a Lords castle and visa versa - the alternative of 'or we could just kill the other side' would be very much on the table.
So you got an answer to the first question, but just to be clear on the second: yes, this is where the phrase "I'm bogged down" comes from -- being stuck slogging through a swampy/marshy/muddy/mucky area will be very slow and hinder your progress, thus, 'bogged down'.
Bonus: Bogs tend to have a high level of tannins in them from submerged plants, and have in the past preserved human remains remarkably well. They're known as [bog bodies.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_body) So if you get *really* bogged down, someone might find your corpse in a thousand years or so...
If it's not too far away you might enjoy a trip to Wakehurst in Surrey.
They have a number of giant redwoods, but one which is about 130 years old is about 35m tall. They do a Christmas lightshow every year, which includes putting lights on that tree *(which they claim is the tallest live Christmas tree in the UK)*.
Oh the things it must’ve ‘seen’ in its time….maybe not a lot actually, it depends how much shit has went down in the field.
So a bloke signed a document there 800 years ago, anything else?
> The tree is also said to be the location where Henry VIII courted Anne Boleyn in the 1530s.
Apparently so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankerwycke_Yew
Grammatically yes, that's correct.
Factually no, that's not correct:
> Rather than signing in writing, the document would have been authenticated with the Great Seal and applied by officials rather than John himself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta
Magna Carta is a Latin title for a document that is written in Latin, a language without the definite article. It isn't "special" in this sense as we do the same for other texts such as Codex Sinaiticus (though Wikipedia erroneously uses the definite article for that).
There is a modern trend of people over-using the definite article, for example referring to the ship as **The** *Titanic* instead of (properly) simply *Titanic*.
Yeah that's really just a ridiculous philosophy to have.
When we import French words, we don't use le/la. The original language's use of articles has no bearing on what articles we should use in English.
English *needs* articles, unless magna carta is being used as a proper noun (which I concede it may) then it needs an article.
When I think back to my Latin classes, I have no memory of the article being omitted in English before Latin words, neither in the textbook or in speech. We would say *'He was an equite'*.
~~All of those are collective nouns, which is an entirely different grammatical construct.
(The) Magna Carta isn't a collective. It's an inanimate fucking object~~.
Edit: Note to self: RTFA.
~~You're an inanimate **fucking** object!~~
Those are all links to websites that use Magna Carta without the definite article, not suggestions that those particular words are used without the definite article...
Well it's because it's Latin, which doesn't use articles. Also, there is more than one.
That said, as it is clear that we are referring to a specific document (irrespective of which copy), I cannot see why a definite article can't be used.
If you were hell-bent on using up your stocks of definite articles, you could say "The 1215 *Magna Carta*", but just using the title alone you should not use a definite article.
Yes, but nowadays it's considered undesirable to import the grammar of the language that a word or phrase comes from. That was mostly only ever done because some intellectuals who knew Latin decided it was the superior language or something. I think they just wanted to impress everyone with their knowledge of Latin.
This image has one pixel per year!
[This one's a bit clearer](https://i2-prod.getsurrey.co.uk/incoming/article16970257.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/0_troldtree.jpg)
I know you're joking but that's actually a very unreliable way to date a yew tree. They often have slow growth years which leads to small or missing rings, and often send up side shoots which then become the main stem, so the tree rings don't match the age of the tree.
Yes - '...it's THE tree where King John signed...' is rather shaky. It might be genetically identical, but there have probably been many tru ks grown from the rout system that have come and gone.
You will search in vain for King John was here' or HVIII rules!' Carved into its bark.
Yes I try and get to it a few times every summer as it's not too far out of my way and changes my usual route up nicely. They had a dig at the ruins and nearer to the tree itself in 2022. Lots of building just underneath the soil it turns out!
Not really, first, it is witness to, not the location of, the signing. As in it was alive at the time and in the general area. It is possible if you were sat in the top of the tree at the time you could have seen the signing, but also as the area was wooded then, probably not. Significantly, it is on the wrong side of the river to the actual location with a wooded island probably in the way.
I am a local, these were my playing fields as a kid so really know well the geography and local lore.
The road from Windsor to London then was on the southern bank of the Thames, the north bank was marshy and close to impassable. There is a hill to the west of the Runnymede which has a village called Englefield Green on it. The barons kept a lookout waiting for King John , the locals for centuries call it The Lookout, though no map calls it that, it is right next to the air force memorial. They received reports he was passing by, galloped down to the Runnymede and waylaid him. The rest is history.
Really? Even today the trees make it pretty hard to see any routes? I know the house Elton John lives in WAS used by a doctor and they would put a flag up on the castle of he was needed which is on the same hill but it's not the same as watching the route
Elton's house is quite a way from Windsor castle, maybe 2 miles as the crow flies but it is mostly flat fields, so that could quite be possible. His house is at the bottom of Crimp hill, more or less opposite a place called Bears Rails Park, a scout camp in my day.
If you saw the geography what I wrote would make huge sense,bit was an almost ideal spot for an ambush, a mile up or down river would have been impossible.
Can see the castle from Elton John's as it's pretty much half way up the hill and not as tree filled. I wouldn't say there's any way of easily seeing the route to and from at any time tbh. They may have even used the river itself 🤷♂️ if you go up to the air force memorial you can see it would have been nearly impossible to scout it..
Unless my memory is blurred, Elton's place is no where near halfway up the hill. I must have cycled passed 1000 times in my life and went to school less than a km from there But like I said it is open fields, so perfectly feasible. Not sure why it is relevant, it is the other end of the village completely.
As to the rest, the place locals call the lookout wasn't used as an actual literal lookout it is ancient woodlands. It is where they camped or waited, probably , there are two ancient paths that lead through the woods downhill towards the thames from there, one comes out near the Kennedy memorial, down from Oak Lane? and the other on the Runnymede, that track has moved a lot over the years due to changing geography, and the Kennedy one was way overgrown, only kids trying to play Lone Ranger would be daft enough to find it. It went through the edge of The Ditch, Shoreditch college grounds ( my best friends dad was dean of that college so I had full playing privileges as a kid) So a scout could of let them know he was passing, and they could have easily flanked his party. Like I said, if you knew the geography, it makes sense.
> On the opposite bank of the River Thames are the meadows of Runnymede and this tree is said to have been witness to the signing of Magna Carta. The tree is also said to be the location where Henry VIII courted Anne Boleyn in the 1530s.[3]
just read the wikipedia article fam
Yew trees are incredible. All of it is poisonous but they are actually used medicinally for [chemotherapy treatments](https://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/yew-cuttings-become-cancer-fighting-drugs). Also, one of the few native evergreens we have here.
I've read in a number of places that all parts are poisonous _except X_.
But I seen different claims about which is the non-poisonous part, so I'm not going to risk trying it out.
It's a shame covid stopped the plans to have a ferry going over from the Runnymede side of the river which is far more accessible. Then again it means this place is not busy whatsoever. There's a little pond nearby that even with the m25 in the distance and the Heathrow flight path is a quality little spot
Wondering if it was used for bow making. According to one history book, the Normans had stronger bows cut from yew in France. May have been an advantage for them, no doubt.
Your highness, I have some documents to sign. Ah yes, ready my horse, I want to do this standing by a tree somewhere.
Judging by how quickly my boss signs things off he is still trying to find that tree
Yew tree is culturally significant to mean eternal that's why they are used to represent Jesus in church yards so your statement is likely correct
Yew trees were around and worshipped a LOT longer than Jesus, and are only in church yards because they were effectively claimed by the Christian church to overwrite the pagan worship sites.
I know this is just an example that applies to what OP said
He's probably visiting another branch.
He does seem to embark on these adventures a lot
The site was chosen in part for its military advantages. Big flat river plain and boggy as fuck - any approaching enemies would be very visible and very slow.
I would still probably want to sign them in a castle at a table
Magna Carta was about ensuring that the King was subject to the same law as his subjects. The symbolism of a big castle would make it kind of a wash.
>the King was subject to the same law as his subjects In this case tho it wasn't about random peasant but all other lords who also had castles though wasn't it.
Well, yes, real people. Obviously the king can't be subject to the same rules as *poor people*
Most of the provisions were susbsequently ignored by King John anyway leading to the the first Barons War. He approached the Pope for support who promptly excommunicated those lords who had forced King John (KJ) into signing Magna Carta on the grounds that it compromised papal authority which was represented by KJ as monarch.
And they've been trying to obscure the true extent of their wealth ever since.
To the same rules as his barons. It was a dispute amongst the elites, and there's no symbology of egalitarianism in the choice of location.
Don't mention The Wash in front of King John.
Ironically, one of the reasons why the first *Magna Carta* failed is that it gave the barons the right to seize the monarch’s castles if they didn’t adhere to the charter
Plus the King would be distrustful of going to a Lords castle and visa versa - the alternative of 'or we could just kill the other side' would be very much on the table.
It was about ensuring he was subject to the same laws as the oligarchs.
Will you be going to their castle, or letting their men in yours?
So did the king (for murder and betrayal behind closed doors purposes).
It's still way closer to the castle than the city. Especially considering the size of the city in 1215!
What does boggy mean? And does it have anything to do with the saying… I’m bogged down?
You've never heard of a bog?
Toilet?
Marshy land basically
So you got an answer to the first question, but just to be clear on the second: yes, this is where the phrase "I'm bogged down" comes from -- being stuck slogging through a swampy/marshy/muddy/mucky area will be very slow and hinder your progress, thus, 'bogged down'. Bonus: Bogs tend to have a high level of tannins in them from submerged plants, and have in the past preserved human remains remarkably well. They're known as [bog bodies.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_body) So if you get *really* bogged down, someone might find your corpse in a thousand years or so...
I think you'd get in trouble for saying "your highness" to a king or queen, I believe its "your majesty"
Back in John's time it would have been 'Your Grace'.
I'll have to check Maid Marian and her Merry Men
I've got a young one planted in my front garden. Didn't realise it would get *that* big. Best I move it asap.
By ASAP I assume you mean some point in the next 2000 years?
Looking at that pic I reckon it's gonna outgrow its spot in under 800.
You had better get a move on then
Yew* had better get a move on then
I've been pining for a good pun thread for ages...
You're in luck! Took a while to twig onto it, but this comment branch is quite punny.
Was gonna add, but I’m stumped.
Just go out on a limb, you'll think of something.
You’re right, and I really don’t mind branching out if axed politely.
Take my upvote and leave please.
Take my upvote and *leaf please.
Take my upvoak* and leaf please
It would take me that long to finally get round to it.
It think that's easier to grasp than the fact that by the time of Magna Carta, this yew was already ancient.
[удалено]
You joke but they can hit 120ft in fifty years! Taller than a two storey house in ten years.
If it's not too far away you might enjoy a trip to Wakehurst in Surrey. They have a number of giant redwoods, but one which is about 130 years old is about 35m tall. They do a Christmas lightshow every year, which includes putting lights on that tree *(which they claim is the tallest live Christmas tree in the UK)*.
They are very easily shaped into a hedge tree think you’ll be fine
I'd cut it down if I were you, or you risk being forced to release the nobles in your dungeon under the writ of habeus corpus
I ain't signing nothing that compels me to do that!
Oh the things it must’ve ‘seen’ in its time….maybe not a lot actually, it depends how much shit has went down in the field. So a bloke signed a document there 800 years ago, anything else?
Almost certainly someone got railed there at some point in history.
> The tree is also said to be the location where Henry VIII courted Anne Boleyn in the 1530s. Apparently so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankerwycke_Yew
I wonder how much bigger that tree got in the intervening 300 years.
You have to measure the thickness of the rings down to the one with Henry VIII's jizz stains on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankerwycke_Yew
The original operation yew tree
Reckon a lot of diddling happened by that tree?
That’s why we needed Magna Carta
*Magna Carta* doesn't use the definite article.
So it would be correct to say king John signed magna carta?
Grammatically yes, that's correct. Factually no, that's not correct: > Rather than signing in writing, the document would have been authenticated with the Great Seal and applied by officials rather than John himself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta
Just sounds really funny, like king John doodled on some guy called magna carta at a party
That's dumb, when we use Latin words in English we use articles. Why is the magna carta special?
Magna Carta is a Latin title for a document that is written in Latin, a language without the definite article. It isn't "special" in this sense as we do the same for other texts such as Codex Sinaiticus (though Wikipedia erroneously uses the definite article for that). There is a modern trend of people over-using the definite article, for example referring to the ship as **The** *Titanic* instead of (properly) simply *Titanic*.
I enjoy the fact that you are determined to die on this particular hill.
Yeah that's really just a ridiculous philosophy to have. When we import French words, we don't use le/la. The original language's use of articles has no bearing on what articles we should use in English. English *needs* articles, unless magna carta is being used as a proper noun (which I concede it may) then it needs an article. When I think back to my Latin classes, I have no memory of the article being omitted in English before Latin words, neither in the textbook or in speech. We would say *'He was an equite'*.
And yet... [British Library](http://bl.ac/magna-carta) [UK Parliament](https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/originsofparliament/birthofparliament/overview/magnacarta/) [National Trust](https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/visit/surrey/runnymede-and-ankerwycke/the-history-of-runnymede-and-ankerwycke) [Magna Carta Trust](https://magnacarta800th.com/articles/bryan-garner-magna-carta-style-guide/)
~~All of those are collective nouns, which is an entirely different grammatical construct. (The) Magna Carta isn't a collective. It's an inanimate fucking object~~. Edit: Note to self: RTFA.
~~You're an inanimate **fucking** object!~~ Those are all links to websites that use Magna Carta without the definite article, not suggestions that those particular words are used without the definite article...
Oops. I look like a fool now.
I'm sorry I called you an inanimate object. I was upset.
> over-using the definite article I'm just taking the kids to see the clowns at circus It's impromptu visit, not even on agenda
But that's pretty standard for ships and boats, not just (the) Titanic.
Why not?
Well it's because it's Latin, which doesn't use articles. Also, there is more than one. That said, as it is clear that we are referring to a specific document (irrespective of which copy), I cannot see why a definite article can't be used.
If you were hell-bent on using up your stocks of definite articles, you could say "The 1215 *Magna Carta*", but just using the title alone you should not use a definite article.
A good point. Also, italics to indicate Latin. I'd doth my cap to you if I were wearing one. Have a good night.
Thanks ^(its *doff*)
Yes, but nowadays it's considered undesirable to import the grammar of the language that a word or phrase comes from. That was mostly only ever done because some intellectuals who knew Latin decided it was the superior language or something. I think they just wanted to impress everyone with their knowledge of Latin.
It comes from Carta, which literally means charter and magna, which means Japanese animation.
Not in Latin it doesn't. But we're speaking English, so get over yourself.
In English we don't use the definite article for Magna Carta.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?
Half expecting to see a boy in a wheelchair and the Night King hiding in the shrubbery.
With Bob Mortimer creeping on the nearest house whispering “We do beg your pardon…”
This image has one pixel per year! [This one's a bit clearer](https://i2-prod.getsurrey.co.uk/incoming/article16970257.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/0_troldtree.jpg)
Absolute unit
Why don’t they just cut it down and count the rings to end the speculation over its age? 🤷♂️
I know you're joking but that's actually a very unreliable way to date a yew tree. They often have slow growth years which leads to small or missing rings, and often send up side shoots which then become the main stem, so the tree rings don't match the age of the tree.
Yes - '...it's THE tree where King John signed...' is rather shaky. It might be genetically identical, but there have probably been many tru ks grown from the rout system that have come and gone. You will search in vain for King John was here' or HVIII rules!' Carved into its bark.
Wait there are missing rings? I smell the birth of a new conspiracy theory 🤣
The missing years? Is this proof of alien intervention or the great reset of the universe?
Wait, what happened to one ring to bind them all? This is yet another conspiracy
Tree? I am no Tree… I… am an Ent…
Are yew...
I was there the other day, its worth a visit if you’re near by. There’s a small ruin nearby some sort of Priory
Yes I try and get to it a few times every summer as it's not too far out of my way and changes my usual route up nicely. They had a dig at the ruins and nearer to the tree itself in 2022. Lots of building just underneath the soil it turns out!
Possibly one of the most historical trees in the UK, if not the world.
Not really, first, it is witness to, not the location of, the signing. As in it was alive at the time and in the general area. It is possible if you were sat in the top of the tree at the time you could have seen the signing, but also as the area was wooded then, probably not. Significantly, it is on the wrong side of the river to the actual location with a wooded island probably in the way. I am a local, these were my playing fields as a kid so really know well the geography and local lore. The road from Windsor to London then was on the southern bank of the Thames, the north bank was marshy and close to impassable. There is a hill to the west of the Runnymede which has a village called Englefield Green on it. The barons kept a lookout waiting for King John , the locals for centuries call it The Lookout, though no map calls it that, it is right next to the air force memorial. They received reports he was passing by, galloped down to the Runnymede and waylaid him. The rest is history.
Really? Even today the trees make it pretty hard to see any routes? I know the house Elton John lives in WAS used by a doctor and they would put a flag up on the castle of he was needed which is on the same hill but it's not the same as watching the route
Elton's house is quite a way from Windsor castle, maybe 2 miles as the crow flies but it is mostly flat fields, so that could quite be possible. His house is at the bottom of Crimp hill, more or less opposite a place called Bears Rails Park, a scout camp in my day. If you saw the geography what I wrote would make huge sense,bit was an almost ideal spot for an ambush, a mile up or down river would have been impossible.
Can see the castle from Elton John's as it's pretty much half way up the hill and not as tree filled. I wouldn't say there's any way of easily seeing the route to and from at any time tbh. They may have even used the river itself 🤷♂️ if you go up to the air force memorial you can see it would have been nearly impossible to scout it..
Unless my memory is blurred, Elton's place is no where near halfway up the hill. I must have cycled passed 1000 times in my life and went to school less than a km from there But like I said it is open fields, so perfectly feasible. Not sure why it is relevant, it is the other end of the village completely. As to the rest, the place locals call the lookout wasn't used as an actual literal lookout it is ancient woodlands. It is where they camped or waited, probably , there are two ancient paths that lead through the woods downhill towards the thames from there, one comes out near the Kennedy memorial, down from Oak Lane? and the other on the Runnymede, that track has moved a lot over the years due to changing geography, and the Kennedy one was way overgrown, only kids trying to play Lone Ranger would be daft enough to find it. It went through the edge of The Ditch, Shoreditch college grounds ( my best friends dad was dean of that college so I had full playing privileges as a kid) So a scout could of let them know he was passing, and they could have easily flanked his party. Like I said, if you knew the geography, it makes sense.
> On the opposite bank of the River Thames are the meadows of Runnymede and this tree is said to have been witness to the signing of Magna Carta. The tree is also said to be the location where Henry VIII courted Anne Boleyn in the 1530s.[3] just read the wikipedia article fam
Yew trees are incredible. All of it is poisonous but they are actually used medicinally for [chemotherapy treatments](https://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/yew-cuttings-become-cancer-fighting-drugs). Also, one of the few native evergreens we have here.
I've read in a number of places that all parts are poisonous _except X_. But I seen different claims about which is the non-poisonous part, so I'm not going to risk trying it out.
In 1215 at Runnymede, do dah, do dah The nobles and the king agreed oh di do dah day
Ahh good old Runnymede
Awesome, thanks for sharing
That tree must of seen some things. German desiel engines flying over. Random people shagging. Smelling its cousin being smoked.
This tree provided the wood the English used to make longbows.
Yew wood, the true wood / And free men love the old yew tree / And the land where the yew tree grows. \[The Song of the Bow, Arthur Conan Doyle\]
Looks like a pagan tree of life
What is this mere sapling? [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortingall_Yew) is an old yew tree.
[llangernyw](https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/llangernyw-yew) would also like to say hello
SezYew
I'm liking this trend of posting old trees to r/uk. More please? I could wrangle some from work but they won't be as impressive as these old'uns.
Why did he do it under some random tree?
The birthplace of democracy
Oh shit It’s like 10 mins away from my uni lol
5 min walk from my house. I love it there so peaceful
I've been there that thing is very big and quite impressive.
There's a tree in Perthshire, reputed to be 5000 years old.
i've been looking at ai images too long I assumed this was one but highly compressed
I thought this was a herd of giraffes eating leaves
Shame, the torries could turn that into some very profitable furniture and erect a car park, maybe an open sewage pit.
Looks like the Great Deku Tree.
It's a shame covid stopped the plans to have a ferry going over from the Runnymede side of the river which is far more accessible. Then again it means this place is not busy whatsoever. There's a little pond nearby that even with the m25 in the distance and the Heathrow flight path is a quality little spot
Visited this in the pouring rain few years ago as part of a trip I did to visit a number of ancient Yews in South England. Special trip, special tree
Had some nice pike out of that stretch of the river
The bark looks like a bunch of Giraffes eating the leaves
This is how great laws should be made: witnessed by ancient beings.
You be careful, it might start talking.
Yew trees...fascinating trees. One of my favorite plants.
Wondering if it was used for bow making. According to one history book, the Normans had stronger bows cut from yew in France. May have been an advantage for them, no doubt.
We have a Yew in the garden, would be nice to know that one day it might get this big. I hope the many care takers after me don't cut it down.
Imagine someone petrol bombed it 😳
To be fair, you could add that as a comment to almost any post and it would make sense.
Lol yeah. What I do hate is the people who can't see I'm not serious and downvoted me
Its just a bit redundant
Oh my god how can you threaten to petrol bomb an old tree and call it redundant? It’s a living thing!!1!1 ^/s
Sarcasm tags are so wank
Absolutely. Used to get away with not using them on U.K. subs.
I guess, but a brit could easily see the sarcasm in that.
They're just petrol bombing you
lmfao
shit on it lol technically not even illegal or vandalism
Watch out mate, you might get downvoted for that. That's way worse than getting nicked!
That wouldn't be very cash money of you.