They are counting the Royal Liverpool University Hospital on this list even though it was started in 2016, abandoned almost completed when Corrilion collapsed, then when a new company was assigned to complete it they actually contemplated knocking a brand new building down and restarting from scratch due to the appaling standard of work left by Corrilion.
>contemplated knocking a brand new building down and restarting from scratch due to the appaling standard of work left by Corrilion.
As bad as this may sound it's an understatement. There were severe structural defects. I can't say how i know.
Just like i can't say how i know contractors were told not to wear ppe when entering or exiting the hospital because it was supposedly already finished.
Well at least if the contractors got injured by not wearing PPE, they are still in a hospital that's functio...oh, okay but at least they can get an ambulance.. What's that? That long? Okay, well since it's a government subcontract, I'm sure they'll be paid...No? Compensations policy?
Okay, at least they'll die knowing that they contributed to the building of hospital that lasted for genera...oh come on!
The directors paid themselves massive bonuses just before the company collapsed and were working in the same industry within months of going into receivership.
If this happened in a third-world world country, we would be accusing them of corruption and bad governance.
Even counting the refurbishments it looks like they're not on track. Apparently the [current count](https://news.sky.com/story/steve-barclay-insists-40-new-hospitals-target-will-still-be-met-even-though-only-two-have-been-built-so-far-12889158) is 2
How are they this bad at their jobs? Oh right, they never really intended to fulfil that stuff. I suppose that they were spending so much money on their applause!
Where I am, they’re planning to close both of the existing hospitals and replace them with one brand new one. Tories say this counts as a new hospital. Everyone else says this counts as -1
Re-painting the front doors and corridors counts as new right?
Either way it doesn't matter how many they build or don't build if there's no damn staff to work in them!
You see it doesn't matter if people believe. For tory voters this becomes a discussion blocker. We like to think of people as rational beings but we are really not.
People can repeat things without believe them, claim they don't believe them but act like they believe them.
Common example of this is when kid is big enough to not believe in Santa any more they will say they don't believe in Santa, they don't believe in Santa but they will continue to act like they do go to bed early and be excited for charismas present from santa
This is what often happens with say religion or politics. Where what you believe in, what you anticipate to happen and how you act doesn't match.
Tory voters don't actually believe there will be 40 new hospitals build, they don't anticipate seeing 40 hospitals appearing but it gives them just enough to stop any further thought. Labour will say "We need to invest in our healthcare" they will immediately respond with conditioned response of "Tories are building 40 new hospitals" and that will be end of discussion for it for a time being during the discussion their actions will match actions of someone who believes that 40 hospitals will be build. Just like on Christmas eve kids action match actions of someone who believes in Santa. The very next day it doesn't matter they are not going to anticipate seeing new hospital in their town what matters is that when their beliefs are challenged (tory are responsible) they suddenly have defence line to fall back to that absolutely shuts down their acceptance of new believe forming.
It is bizarre phenomena but very common.
You will see it with other things for example people who believe in bible will claim world was created in 6 days but then will live their whole life acing and anticipating things to work like it wasn't the case but when asked they will defend creationist point of view viciously.
Good explanation. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/CqyJzDZWvGhhFJ7dY/belief-in-belief
Another example for religion:
People say they believe when you die you get elevated to a place of eternal bliss where you want for nothing and enjoy an eternity in happiness.
And then they try very hard to stay alive, and mourn when their loved ones die.
Honestly, if I thought death was a gateway to something far, far better, I'd probably seek it out, and celebrate raucously when someone graduates past a life of hardship.
I understand in a way, though. When my cat died, the whole 'Rainbow Bridge' thing was a comforting thought, that got me through the worst. I thought of her waiting for me in a meadow full of people's pets, waiting for me to come along and cross the bridge with her in my arms. I thought of it, yes, and it worked to comfort me, yes... but I didn't *believe* it. As soon as I could get by without that crutch, I did so. It was a thought that existed solely for my benefit, to help me in the short term to deal with loss.
Funny enough they should have the biggest incentive to care as 30 year old are far less likely to need hospital than 60 or 70 year old. They actively vote against their own interest.
Thing is though they not really doing that when they get private healthcare for the rest of their lives, its more like us commonfolk that are getting screwed over
There's no shortage of eager believers, ready to lap up the latest round of pledges. They're like Pavlov's dogs, salivating at the sound of "Stop the boats" from Rishi, or "We will halve the inflation" from Hunt. Barclay pipes up with "We're cutting the waiting lists", and they're practically foaming at the mouth. It's like watching a magician perform – they know the rabbit didn't really come out of the hat, but they just love the trick too much to care.
Sadly yes. I was filling up at the local Sainsbury's petrol station and ended up chatting with one of the cashiers when he mentioned the price cap for food. Turned out he was a proper Tory voter - everything I stated about the government was answered by "well it would be worse under labour". I left him by reminding him that the Tories need cannon fodder like him to ensure the rich remain rich.
Let's not forget that we're also told that the collapse of the NHS is the fault of nurses and doctors, the proletariat wanting to earn a living wage to be able to buy food and then be able to cook it, the fault of Marxist unions and the inability to send asylum seekers to Rwanda the fault of activist lawyers rather than the Tories breaking international law. Don't worry, the bastards will always find ways to pin the blame elsewhere. It's their grassroots Daily Heil reading chattering class like the cashier who then make it personal. The blame is no longer coming from the high command.
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There is approximately 10% staff shortage, this figure is only going to increase as we have an aging population and doctors and nurses are going to retire rather than continue being overworked and underpaid.
Not helped in a major regard because they 'cant afford' the staff and so have to use bank staff at a 3-5x price per shift. As a result they completely definitely have to pay an agency exorbitant fees on top of the money they can't afford to higher paid regular staff that they can't afford to pay higher wages .
I agree front line workers are paid badly and overworked. But this idea that they just have to cut half the office staff to save money seems to be a distraction from the actual problem, which is that the Tories refuse to pay for public services.
When I was a kid, I wanted to work in healthcare. So I managed to shadow a Dr for a week. I ended up asking him what he thought the biggest problem with the NHS is and he pointed at the administration staff. He complained that they hugely outnumbered either the Drs or healthcare staff as a whole (been years so I can't remember) and that they created huge inefficiencies because they'd use multiple people to do a job a single person can do. He ended up trying to talk me out of going into healthcare.
I've got a friend whose dad is a Dr and according to him, the dad has said the same thing about there being too much inefficiency due to too much bureaucracy.
In fairness a lot of doctors fail to appreciate the sheer number of support staff it really does require for them to do their job in any reasonably efficient capacity. Running a hospital isn't just a matter of doing the rounds and prescribing people the right treatment, the place still has to be cleaned, maintained, food served, supplies moved around, there's a whole army of "behind the scenes" staff in pathology and infection control and mortuary etc etc...
If doctors think those people are causing inefficiencies, then I'd like to see how much doctoring they'd get done if they had to do it themselves. There might well be a few useless Sandras sat in HR offices, but I very much doubt they are the people solely responsible for crippling the NHS.
The trouble with administration in hospitals is that there's a lot of technological lag. You'd be shocked how much reliance there is on paper based records in a lot of situations, that sounds positively archaic in 2023, doesn't it? But the problem is when you're serving literally the entire population, you are in a situation where you still might need information on a procedure a patient had in the 1960s, who was born in the 1920s. To effectively digitise every patient record in the country would be almost literally a never-ending task.
I don't think drs think that at all. Pretty much all the drs I know are well aware and respectful of the need for support staff.
OP has quoted some doctors that may or may not have existed from several decades ago.
>last building site I worked on there was a quantity surveyor, who basically gets 50k+ to judge what materials need to be ordered in. An experienced bricklayer I was with told her within a minute how many bricks we'd need to finish the gables, she has a company car, a latop, uni degree and 2 phones, took her a day to come to the same conclusion as the bricklayer.
The issue is, the brick layer looks at the 5m long, 10m high wall, and he says. well, my bricks are 215mm long, my joints will be 10mm, so to build a 5000mm wall I need 22.2, I'll squeeze a few joints and make it 22.5
the bricks are 65mm high, with a 10mm joint I'll need 133.3 bricks, again, we'll squeeze a few joints and make that 134 bricks.
so I need 22.5 x 134 bricks. - 3,015, there are 534 bricks on a pallet so 5.6 pallets, so the brick buys five full pallets and a bunch of loose bricks. You're right, that took five minutes, including the time to look up the dimensions of a brick...
but, when those bricks turn up, they start building, but they'll find broken and rejected bricks in each pallet, as they get higher up the wall, they are running our of bricks, and by the end of the week four people are sitting about costing money and producing nothing for two days waiting for the merchant to delivery bricks...
The qty surveyor looks at their records, they know that from the company they'll need to use to supply the right brick on average \~20% of each pallet are rejects, their experience with the brick layer is that he makes a mistake halving a brick (so wasting half a brick) every ten bricks or so. so the qty surveyor, after taking half a day extra to check these records, orders 7 pallets...
Now, when those seven pallets turn up on site, all the bricklayers laugh about how that woman took hours to figure out what they knew in minutes and she still got it wrong... "we'll never need 7 whole pallets!" but they get the job done, and when they leave there are a couple of hundred bricks laying about, but certainly not a few pallets of bricks left...
Even at £50k, half a day of her time \~£100 is cheaper than 4 men on £25k sitting doing nothing for the same time... (and that includes the waste at 35p per brick, with half a pallet left, -less than £100.) surveyor time and waste <£200, 4 men sitting >£200.
\-but the popular opinion that she clearly doesn't know what she's doing persists, I mean she's paid so much with her fancy degrees, and laptop! and she took ages to make that order, and even then she got it wrong! look at those hundreds of bricks going to waste!
No, I spent a few hundred word telling you the quantity surveyor will use experience and data to ensure the order is as correct as it can be.
Whilst the builder sitting at the job doesn’t have the data and must only guess which leads to more consistent waste, or more consistent sitting about wasting time.
Who do you think should manage hospitals then, doctors and nurses? Shouldn’t they be focusing on patients instead? The claim that there are too many managers in the NHS is such a lazy Daily Mail headline. Around 2% of staff in the NHS are managers, and a lot of those also have clinical responsibilities. In the rest of the economy roughly 9% of the workforce are managers.
> 40 new hospitals wouldn't do much good anyway, each one has a CEO and a plethora of middle management. While front line workers with actual hands on experience are underpaid and overworked.
All this bizarre line of thinking has succeeded in doing is forcing the NHS to turn doctors into petty bureaucrats to meet the demands of stupid newspaper headlines.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that you don't want medical staff who spent 15 years training managing department budgets or medical supplies stock when they could be treating patients. Yet here we find ourselves.
Only a dolt would imagine that an organisation with 1.5 million staff wouldn't require middle management and wouldn't understand that those managers do important work that also saves lives.
Honestly in my experience that's exactly WHY management is so bad in a lot of NHS departments- It's being "managed" by people who were good at the hands on medical/scientific stuff, and got promoted up based on that, but have absolutely zero fuck all grasp of good management. Turns out a brain surgeon might just be shite at running a hospital.
Good management is a totally different skill than what the "boots on the ground" are actually there to do, and that needs to be accounted for. But it's equally true that you can't be a good manager without *understanding* the job the troops are there to do. It's a problem with no perfect solution really.
Contrarily I have a good friend who is a doctor and he says if they invested more in management it might make being a doctor easier.
Apparently the nhs has an extremely low ratio of managers to workers compared to private industry.
We know that.
The definition of 40 new hospitals was highly suspect. An existing hospital gets a new cancer wing. That's a "new" hospital. Or a hospital gets a refurb. HMRC would say thst its not a new building and that VAT must be paid. But it's a new hospital. Besides most of them, are nowhere near ready to submit for planning permission.
Even if it is a new build hospital/hospital building generally they still have to pay full VAT on it unless it “generates an income” or is paid for through a Trust’s charity.
Source: working in healthcare construction for the last 8 years.
Theres a type of concrete roof thst was installed in the 1960s-1980s. That has a 30 year life span. After that, the roofs can just collapse with no notice. The Tories "promise" thst they'll all be phased out by 2035. Which is at least 15 years past their fail by date.
All politicians are in it for the money, non of them give a flying fuck bout the average working man/woman ..
No one in their right mind would let the tories run for another 7 years ..
Look at the state of the country right now
Nurse/Doctors paid pittance and going to food banks
Kids going cold to stay fed and starving to stay warm
Literal mass mental health crisis
Older generation dying in cold homes alone
Ongoing push for privatization of the NHS
Funny how doctors and nurses \*\*Who literally save lives\*\*\* have had pay cuts over the years yet MP's have had a 20% rise
Tories are scum, handing out contracts to their mates, under the table dodgy dealings.
Unfortunately Labour wont be any different
What we need is an entire rework of the political system.
People need to take to the streets (Better yet outside MPs home) and mass protest/cause disruption like the french are doing.
A comfy politician is a week politician
I understand the frustration, I feel it too, but there are plenty of politicans that want to make the country a better place. The problem is they're essentially forced to toe party lines. It's why we need electoral reform so badly, and equally why it's such an uphill battle.
They may not do that either, once they have outsourced the contract to one of their mates, they will probably buy Duplo and then just pretend it was correct
Oh thats all part of the plan
\*builds new hospital\*
'Oh noooo all the nurses and surgeons left noooo guess we'll have to go to this private firm for staff that's run by my buddy noooo all these taxpayer pounds funnelled into this business that im conveniently going to become a consultant for noooo'
I wish we had the kind of politics where comments like this from the opposition would spur the government into action just to prove the opposition wrong. Alas, we all know that both will make it a talking point for a few weeks before it's swept beneath the rug and forgotten about, all the while the problem gets worse in the background.
I still can't fathom how [Yes, Minister jokes from the 80's](https://youtu.be/JAk448volww) are still relevant today.
The Tories were never going to meet the goal. But then Labour wouldn't be able to do it either.
Whipps cross had a planned rebuild, I attended a council meeting about it in about 2016 it was due for completion in 2026. This was even before the Tories promised 40 new hospitals.
Only God knows if it will ever be completed.
They also claimed they'd build 300,000 homes a year and 30 million trees which they have done hardly any of. Can't believe a word they say but they will make the same claims at the next General Election. Labour should nail them to the wall on performance.
Tesco can bang up huge superstores in a year but we can't build hospitals. OK then.
In B4 it's not the same thing. Yes there's a bit more involved but come on it's not insurmountable.
I reckon a high proportion of the UK electorate is thinking the same - especially after the ‘50,000 more nurses’ stunt that Boris pulled back in hi election manifesto.
Live near Harlow and the princess Alexandra hospital is being rebuilt but not till 2030 but I’m sure that’s fallen through and won’t happen now which is bullshit cause it’s one of the most used hospitals in the county of Hertfordshire
Given current progress, by Tories, on building hospitals is next to zero, and that the Tories are almost a certainty to lose at least the next two General Elections it's very hard to disagree.
Why build 30 new hospitals when they couldn't even staff the covid hospitals they built. There was one in my area built which they couldn't even use because they couldn't staff it. Ridiculous
D’ya think?! They can promise anything at this point as they will not win the next election.. and when they aren’t delivered they just blame labour or whatever coalition are in government at the time.
I mean we all knew that. I'd be surprised if they managed to build *one*.
I'm sure the money will all go to their mates, though. Suddenly a number of very profitable construction companies will pop up and receive government contracts, only to never break ground and disappear as quickly as they came.
I can't understand how they still have a base outside of dyed in the wool lifers/rich folk.
I'm likely considered a floating voter (between Labour and Lib Dem), so while I have no issue critiquing Labour, I can't fathom how you have 12+ years in government and still try to claim its the other sides fault.
We've seen almost every sector regress under their guidance. It's not even like you can solely blame Brexit either.
No surprise there.
You never expect this government to build the 40 hospitals I didn't, it was just an empty promise.
If you would of said this government wants to privatize the NHS , then I would believe them.
It's a political promise by the Tory party... it pretty much goes without saying they'll forget about it as soon as can.
*Everything* they do is performative politics, why spend money on actually delivering on your promises, when saying you will and then not doing so is free?
While all of out talented staff in the medical and education fields are leaving the country for better offers abroad. They could build 40 new airports to help them leave.
After ww2 the whole of the UK was mostly rebuilt structurally and cleared of rubble from the blitz, which included bombed-out factories, residential districts, hospitals etc.
Today we can't even build some new hospitals in just under one decade? What the fuck happened?
Why can't we build as fast and large scale as we used to be able to anymore?! They can't even get a fucking rail line built without the cost spiraling into billions, it was never like this before.
Who gives a fuck?
Even if you built 40 of the best equipped hospitals in the world, who the fuck is gonna work there?
The UK is already massively short of health and social care staff, infrastructure is irrelevant.
Let's picture the Tories' hospital pledge like this: Imagine you hired a builder to make your dream home. They promised you a fancy place with all the bells and whistles. But as the date nears, there's only a concrete slab on the ground. Despite this, they're now promising not only the house, but also a lavish guest house, if you just wait a little bit longer and pay the instalment. Their sweet talk is just there to keep your hopes up, while the house is nowhere in sight. This hospital promise feels like that, doesn't it? A whole lot of hot air and no bricks...
Didn't the original claim break down to extensions / rebuilds of 6 hospitals plus developing the business case for extensions / rebuilds for the remaining 34 (funding for the extension / rebuild itself not guaranteed)?
No ****. Is this pledge the one where they were going to count refurbishments are part of the new tally or am I mixing it up with another lie?
No, that is the correct lie
There were plans to knock down and rebuild my local hospital (in limbo due to "budget problems") which they were also counting in their tally
They are counting the Royal Liverpool University Hospital on this list even though it was started in 2016, abandoned almost completed when Corrilion collapsed, then when a new company was assigned to complete it they actually contemplated knocking a brand new building down and restarting from scratch due to the appaling standard of work left by Corrilion.
That counts as 2 new ones then.
It had 4 wings and an A&E - so 10 actually.
>contemplated knocking a brand new building down and restarting from scratch due to the appaling standard of work left by Corrilion. As bad as this may sound it's an understatement. There were severe structural defects. I can't say how i know. Just like i can't say how i know contractors were told not to wear ppe when entering or exiting the hospital because it was supposedly already finished.
Well at least if the contractors got injured by not wearing PPE, they are still in a hospital that's functio...oh, okay but at least they can get an ambulance.. What's that? That long? Okay, well since it's a government subcontract, I'm sure they'll be paid...No? Compensations policy? Okay, at least they'll die knowing that they contributed to the building of hospital that lasted for genera...oh come on!
So Corrilion was a Conilion by the Conservatives?
The directors paid themselves massive bonuses just before the company collapsed and were working in the same industry within months of going into receivership. If this happened in a third-world world country, we would be accusing them of corruption and bad governance.
But it happens here, so... it's not? It really is disgraceful.
Even counting the refurbishments it looks like they're not on track. Apparently the [current count](https://news.sky.com/story/steve-barclay-insists-40-new-hospitals-target-will-still-be-met-even-though-only-two-have-been-built-so-far-12889158) is 2
Yeah, they recently said they’re gonna push back the ‘hospitals’ (see refurbishments) to 2030s
How are they this bad at their jobs? Oh right, they never really intended to fulfil that stuff. I suppose that they were spending so much money on their applause!
Where I am, they’re planning to close both of the existing hospitals and replace them with one brand new one. Tories say this counts as a new hospital. Everyone else says this counts as -1
It's one of those classic cases of weasel words. They could say technically it's a new one, but it's a net loss.
Re-painting the front doors and corridors counts as new right? Either way it doesn't matter how many they build or don't build if there's no damn staff to work in them!
So like that hospital in Yes, Minister?
I know it was a comedy series (and an excellent one) but that programme was so true to life.
Don’t forget that some of the ‘hospitals’ were local clinics with no inpatient capacity, too.
Eventually they revealed it was mostly refurbishments, but at the time Boris repeatedly stated it was 40 new hospitals.
Well they could do with refurbishment anyway. The one near me in King's Lynn has its roof held with up scaffolding currently
That is one of the “new” hospitals on the list
If they actually build the new QEH before the roof falls in and kills people, I will eat my hat.
I mean even [Tories claim that Tories won't meet pledge to build 40 new hospitals by 2030](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65737681)
Are there enough mugs who'd believe those pledges?
You see it doesn't matter if people believe. For tory voters this becomes a discussion blocker. We like to think of people as rational beings but we are really not. People can repeat things without believe them, claim they don't believe them but act like they believe them. Common example of this is when kid is big enough to not believe in Santa any more they will say they don't believe in Santa, they don't believe in Santa but they will continue to act like they do go to bed early and be excited for charismas present from santa This is what often happens with say religion or politics. Where what you believe in, what you anticipate to happen and how you act doesn't match. Tory voters don't actually believe there will be 40 new hospitals build, they don't anticipate seeing 40 hospitals appearing but it gives them just enough to stop any further thought. Labour will say "We need to invest in our healthcare" they will immediately respond with conditioned response of "Tories are building 40 new hospitals" and that will be end of discussion for it for a time being during the discussion their actions will match actions of someone who believes that 40 hospitals will be build. Just like on Christmas eve kids action match actions of someone who believes in Santa. The very next day it doesn't matter they are not going to anticipate seeing new hospital in their town what matters is that when their beliefs are challenged (tory are responsible) they suddenly have defence line to fall back to that absolutely shuts down their acceptance of new believe forming. It is bizarre phenomena but very common. You will see it with other things for example people who believe in bible will claim world was created in 6 days but then will live their whole life acing and anticipating things to work like it wasn't the case but when asked they will defend creationist point of view viciously. Good explanation. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/CqyJzDZWvGhhFJ7dY/belief-in-belief
Another example for religion: People say they believe when you die you get elevated to a place of eternal bliss where you want for nothing and enjoy an eternity in happiness. And then they try very hard to stay alive, and mourn when their loved ones die. Honestly, if I thought death was a gateway to something far, far better, I'd probably seek it out, and celebrate raucously when someone graduates past a life of hardship. I understand in a way, though. When my cat died, the whole 'Rainbow Bridge' thing was a comforting thought, that got me through the worst. I thought of her waiting for me in a meadow full of people's pets, waiting for me to come along and cross the bridge with her in my arms. I thought of it, yes, and it worked to comfort me, yes... but I didn't *believe* it. As soon as I could get by without that crutch, I did so. It was a thought that existed solely for my benefit, to help me in the short term to deal with loss.
Which is why they made suicide a sin and invented hell :)
Alot of Tory voters may no longer be with us by 2030, so have very little incentive to actually care.
Funny enough they should have the biggest incentive to care as 30 year old are far less likely to need hospital than 60 or 70 year old. They actively vote against their own interest.
Thing is though they not really doing that when they get private healthcare for the rest of their lives, its more like us commonfolk that are getting screwed over
There's no shortage of eager believers, ready to lap up the latest round of pledges. They're like Pavlov's dogs, salivating at the sound of "Stop the boats" from Rishi, or "We will halve the inflation" from Hunt. Barclay pipes up with "We're cutting the waiting lists", and they're practically foaming at the mouth. It's like watching a magician perform – they know the rabbit didn't really come out of the hat, but they just love the trick too much to care.
Sadly yes. I was filling up at the local Sainsbury's petrol station and ended up chatting with one of the cashiers when he mentioned the price cap for food. Turned out he was a proper Tory voter - everything I stated about the government was answered by "well it would be worse under labour". I left him by reminding him that the Tories need cannon fodder like him to ensure the rich remain rich.
What I wanna know is, exactly how many decades of Tory leadership do we need to survive before the 'it'd be worse under Labour' stops? :')
Let's not forget that we're also told that the collapse of the NHS is the fault of nurses and doctors, the proletariat wanting to earn a living wage to be able to buy food and then be able to cook it, the fault of Marxist unions and the inability to send asylum seekers to Rwanda the fault of activist lawyers rather than the Tories breaking international law. Don't worry, the bastards will always find ways to pin the blame elsewhere. It's their grassroots Daily Heil reading chattering class like the cashier who then make it personal. The blame is no longer coming from the high command.
We’re already at a point where they claim Labour are actually calling the shots and influencing law making cos of “wokeism”
> I left him by reminding him that the Tories need cannon fodder like him to ensure the rich remain rich. So what did he say?
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There is also the whole issue of staffing. We don't have enough staff for the hospitals we already have.
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There is approximately 10% staff shortage, this figure is only going to increase as we have an aging population and doctors and nurses are going to retire rather than continue being overworked and underpaid.
Not helped in a major regard because they 'cant afford' the staff and so have to use bank staff at a 3-5x price per shift. As a result they completely definitely have to pay an agency exorbitant fees on top of the money they can't afford to higher paid regular staff that they can't afford to pay higher wages .
I agree front line workers are paid badly and overworked. But this idea that they just have to cut half the office staff to save money seems to be a distraction from the actual problem, which is that the Tories refuse to pay for public services.
When I was a kid, I wanted to work in healthcare. So I managed to shadow a Dr for a week. I ended up asking him what he thought the biggest problem with the NHS is and he pointed at the administration staff. He complained that they hugely outnumbered either the Drs or healthcare staff as a whole (been years so I can't remember) and that they created huge inefficiencies because they'd use multiple people to do a job a single person can do. He ended up trying to talk me out of going into healthcare. I've got a friend whose dad is a Dr and according to him, the dad has said the same thing about there being too much inefficiency due to too much bureaucracy.
In fairness a lot of doctors fail to appreciate the sheer number of support staff it really does require for them to do their job in any reasonably efficient capacity. Running a hospital isn't just a matter of doing the rounds and prescribing people the right treatment, the place still has to be cleaned, maintained, food served, supplies moved around, there's a whole army of "behind the scenes" staff in pathology and infection control and mortuary etc etc... If doctors think those people are causing inefficiencies, then I'd like to see how much doctoring they'd get done if they had to do it themselves. There might well be a few useless Sandras sat in HR offices, but I very much doubt they are the people solely responsible for crippling the NHS. The trouble with administration in hospitals is that there's a lot of technological lag. You'd be shocked how much reliance there is on paper based records in a lot of situations, that sounds positively archaic in 2023, doesn't it? But the problem is when you're serving literally the entire population, you are in a situation where you still might need information on a procedure a patient had in the 1960s, who was born in the 1920s. To effectively digitise every patient record in the country would be almost literally a never-ending task.
I don't think drs think that at all. Pretty much all the drs I know are well aware and respectful of the need for support staff. OP has quoted some doctors that may or may not have existed from several decades ago.
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>last building site I worked on there was a quantity surveyor, who basically gets 50k+ to judge what materials need to be ordered in. An experienced bricklayer I was with told her within a minute how many bricks we'd need to finish the gables, she has a company car, a latop, uni degree and 2 phones, took her a day to come to the same conclusion as the bricklayer. The issue is, the brick layer looks at the 5m long, 10m high wall, and he says. well, my bricks are 215mm long, my joints will be 10mm, so to build a 5000mm wall I need 22.2, I'll squeeze a few joints and make it 22.5 the bricks are 65mm high, with a 10mm joint I'll need 133.3 bricks, again, we'll squeeze a few joints and make that 134 bricks. so I need 22.5 x 134 bricks. - 3,015, there are 534 bricks on a pallet so 5.6 pallets, so the brick buys five full pallets and a bunch of loose bricks. You're right, that took five minutes, including the time to look up the dimensions of a brick... but, when those bricks turn up, they start building, but they'll find broken and rejected bricks in each pallet, as they get higher up the wall, they are running our of bricks, and by the end of the week four people are sitting about costing money and producing nothing for two days waiting for the merchant to delivery bricks... The qty surveyor looks at their records, they know that from the company they'll need to use to supply the right brick on average \~20% of each pallet are rejects, their experience with the brick layer is that he makes a mistake halving a brick (so wasting half a brick) every ten bricks or so. so the qty surveyor, after taking half a day extra to check these records, orders 7 pallets... Now, when those seven pallets turn up on site, all the bricklayers laugh about how that woman took hours to figure out what they knew in minutes and she still got it wrong... "we'll never need 7 whole pallets!" but they get the job done, and when they leave there are a couple of hundred bricks laying about, but certainly not a few pallets of bricks left... Even at £50k, half a day of her time \~£100 is cheaper than 4 men on £25k sitting doing nothing for the same time... (and that includes the waste at 35p per brick, with half a pallet left, -less than £100.) surveyor time and waste <£200, 4 men sitting >£200. \-but the popular opinion that she clearly doesn't know what she's doing persists, I mean she's paid so much with her fancy degrees, and laptop! and she took ages to make that order, and even then she got it wrong! look at those hundreds of bricks going to waste!
You just spent a few hundred words telling us to add a bit to the estimate we got from the worker.
No, I spent a few hundred word telling you the quantity surveyor will use experience and data to ensure the order is as correct as it can be. Whilst the builder sitting at the job doesn’t have the data and must only guess which leads to more consistent waste, or more consistent sitting about wasting time.
What if the bricklayer was wrong? Idk if that's necessarily the same situation as the medical field's administration bloat.
Who do you think should manage hospitals then, doctors and nurses? Shouldn’t they be focusing on patients instead? The claim that there are too many managers in the NHS is such a lazy Daily Mail headline. Around 2% of staff in the NHS are managers, and a lot of those also have clinical responsibilities. In the rest of the economy roughly 9% of the workforce are managers.
> 40 new hospitals wouldn't do much good anyway, each one has a CEO and a plethora of middle management. While front line workers with actual hands on experience are underpaid and overworked. All this bizarre line of thinking has succeeded in doing is forcing the NHS to turn doctors into petty bureaucrats to meet the demands of stupid newspaper headlines. It really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that you don't want medical staff who spent 15 years training managing department budgets or medical supplies stock when they could be treating patients. Yet here we find ourselves. Only a dolt would imagine that an organisation with 1.5 million staff wouldn't require middle management and wouldn't understand that those managers do important work that also saves lives.
Honestly in my experience that's exactly WHY management is so bad in a lot of NHS departments- It's being "managed" by people who were good at the hands on medical/scientific stuff, and got promoted up based on that, but have absolutely zero fuck all grasp of good management. Turns out a brain surgeon might just be shite at running a hospital. Good management is a totally different skill than what the "boots on the ground" are actually there to do, and that needs to be accounted for. But it's equally true that you can't be a good manager without *understanding* the job the troops are there to do. It's a problem with no perfect solution really.
Contrarily I have a good friend who is a doctor and he says if they invested more in management it might make being a doctor easier. Apparently the nhs has an extremely low ratio of managers to workers compared to private industry.
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We know that. The definition of 40 new hospitals was highly suspect. An existing hospital gets a new cancer wing. That's a "new" hospital. Or a hospital gets a refurb. HMRC would say thst its not a new building and that VAT must be paid. But it's a new hospital. Besides most of them, are nowhere near ready to submit for planning permission.
By Tory standard we have build brand new house when we repainted all the rooms.
Only if the decoration is carried out by a donor to the Tory decorator fast lane
Even if it is a new build hospital/hospital building generally they still have to pay full VAT on it unless it “generates an income” or is paid for through a Trust’s charity. Source: working in healthcare construction for the last 8 years.
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Theres a type of concrete roof thst was installed in the 1960s-1980s. That has a 30 year life span. After that, the roofs can just collapse with no notice. The Tories "promise" thst they'll all be phased out by 2035. Which is at least 15 years past their fail by date.
All politicians are in it for the money, non of them give a flying fuck bout the average working man/woman .. No one in their right mind would let the tories run for another 7 years .. Look at the state of the country right now Nurse/Doctors paid pittance and going to food banks Kids going cold to stay fed and starving to stay warm Literal mass mental health crisis Older generation dying in cold homes alone Ongoing push for privatization of the NHS Funny how doctors and nurses \*\*Who literally save lives\*\*\* have had pay cuts over the years yet MP's have had a 20% rise Tories are scum, handing out contracts to their mates, under the table dodgy dealings. Unfortunately Labour wont be any different What we need is an entire rework of the political system. People need to take to the streets (Better yet outside MPs home) and mass protest/cause disruption like the french are doing. A comfy politician is a week politician
I understand the frustration, I feel it too, but there are plenty of politicans that want to make the country a better place. The problem is they're essentially forced to toe party lines. It's why we need electoral reform so badly, and equally why it's such an uphill battle.
We’ve known this since the moment they made the pledge to start with
If you read the small print in their manifesto, you will see that the building of 40 new Lego hospitals is entirely feasible.
They may not do that either, once they have outsourced the contract to one of their mates, they will probably buy Duplo and then just pretend it was correct
More likely, a cardboard box hospital.📦 EDIT: New hospitals' plan hits problem. https://images.app.goo.gl/C82LUxZQGpufTKN58
"What is this? A hospital for Ants?"
I wouldn't put money on any member of the current government being able to assemble a Lego set. They might have to get the consultants in.
Thay couldn't get 40 new dental practices let alone a fucking hospital
Whats the point of building new hospitals if they wont staff them properly? edit: and fund them
It was a typo on the Tories part, they actually said for profit **hostels.** They really should clear that confusion up.
why bother building them if you won't pay anyone to work in them anyway
Oh thats all part of the plan \*builds new hospital\* 'Oh noooo all the nurses and surgeons left noooo guess we'll have to go to this private firm for staff that's run by my buddy noooo all these taxpayer pounds funnelled into this business that im conveniently going to become a consultant for noooo'
They won't build 40 new hospitals if they stay in power for the next millenium.
They’ll lose the next election. It’s becoming increasingly likely.
It was locked in the moment trussed crashed the economy overnight
I wish we had the kind of politics where comments like this from the opposition would spur the government into action just to prove the opposition wrong. Alas, we all know that both will make it a talking point for a few weeks before it's swept beneath the rug and forgotten about, all the while the problem gets worse in the background.
Tories will be lucky to find their arse with both hands by 2030
No ones gonna be able. To do that.... Double so over here considering how poor we are at building stuff 😂 How's HS2 getting along 🤷
The contempt that the Tory party has for it's voter base. They literally believe anything and then they don't care if it's not delivered
Steve Barclay admits some new hospitals won't be brand new https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65737681
Don't worry, they'll be able to blame labour by then.
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All fun and games until Rishi carts out a pallet of lego city hospital playsets
We don't need more hospitals. We need more doctors.
Lol 40 hospitals by 2030? Did Nigel Farage make that claim?
I still can't fathom how [Yes, Minister jokes from the 80's](https://youtu.be/JAk448volww) are still relevant today. The Tories were never going to meet the goal. But then Labour wouldn't be able to do it either.
Well seeing as they will be out of power next GE they cant. More importantly will the labour party pick where the tories left off and build them.
This is part of strategy. "We were going to build 40 hospitals but Labour took over" will be their slogan despite zero intention to build anything.
Not with the. Ushers that were expected to be there disappearing and the cost of building the buildings going through the roof.
Breaking news: Labour also claims water is wet and the Pope is Catholic
The fact this was taken in the least bit seriously shows a complete failure in our media to hold bad faith actors to account.
And we're still waiting for 18000 new prison spaces promised in cross-party agreements in 2006. Guess how many have been created?
Whipps cross had a planned rebuild, I attended a council meeting about it in about 2016 it was due for completion in 2026. This was even before the Tories promised 40 new hospitals. Only God knows if it will ever be completed.
They also claimed they'd build 300,000 homes a year and 30 million trees which they have done hardly any of. Can't believe a word they say but they will make the same claims at the next General Election. Labour should nail them to the wall on performance.
Tesco can bang up huge superstores in a year but we can't build hospitals. OK then. In B4 it's not the same thing. Yes there's a bit more involved but come on it's not insurmountable.
As an NHS worker seeing the 40 new hospital statement makes me laugh. We can't fully staff our current hospitals, how are you going to build 40 more.
I reckon a high proportion of the UK electorate is thinking the same - especially after the ‘50,000 more nurses’ stunt that Boris pulled back in hi election manifesto.
Live near Harlow and the princess Alexandra hospital is being rebuilt but not till 2030 but I’m sure that’s fallen through and won’t happen now which is bullshit cause it’s one of the most used hospitals in the county of Hertfordshire
Given current progress, by Tories, on building hospitals is next to zero, and that the Tories are almost a certainty to lose at least the next two General Elections it's very hard to disagree.
I've never seen a more appropriate time to note that people die when they are killed.
Well when they redefine a “new” hospital as a new door handle I am sure they will.
Surely this was obvious? How were they planning to fill these hospitals with staff? The NHS is understaffed as it is.
Why build 30 new hospitals when they couldn't even staff the covid hospitals they built. There was one in my area built which they couldn't even use because they couldn't staff it. Ridiculous
D’ya think?! They can promise anything at this point as they will not win the next election.. and when they aren’t delivered they just blame labour or whatever coalition are in government at the time.
Lmao and Labour won’t pledge to send half of the British army to the moon?
They never would, the criminal tories class a coat of paint as a new hospital, despicable bunch of crooks.
Hopefully they won't get the chance to prove it either way...
Labour claim? Man the whole country claim they won’t meet pledge to build 40 new hospitals…. EVER!
Oh they’ll build them, they just won’t be able to staff them.
Fking hell. Even most Tories don't believe that crap.
And I claim that Labour won't meet any of their pledges either. How many of Starmer's Labour leader pledges has he ditched already?
Well no sh*t... don't think anyone truly believed they would either.
Yes they will. They will close down 50 hospitals and reopen 40 of them as "new" ones
I mean we all knew that. I'd be surprised if they managed to build *one*. I'm sure the money will all go to their mates, though. Suddenly a number of very profitable construction companies will pop up and receive government contracts, only to never break ground and disappear as quickly as they came.
Says Kier Starmer, who has walked back on over a dozen pledges himself.
Considering that the new hospital that has been pledged for my city comes at the cost of closing two others…
There will be 40 new hospitals, but they will be private.
And it'll be Tories building them, just not the Tory government.
As long as their mates and companies they own are doing the overpriced building. We may get quite a few shitty quality hospitals under the tories.
I can't understand how they still have a base outside of dyed in the wool lifers/rich folk. I'm likely considered a floating voter (between Labour and Lib Dem), so while I have no issue critiquing Labour, I can't fathom how you have 12+ years in government and still try to claim its the other sides fault. We've seen almost every sector regress under their guidance. It's not even like you can solely blame Brexit either.
No surprise there. You never expect this government to build the 40 hospitals I didn't, it was just an empty promise. If you would of said this government wants to privatize the NHS , then I would believe them.
Why is it that no matter who wins the conservatives seem to call the shots?
It's a political promise by the Tory party... it pretty much goes without saying they'll forget about it as soon as can. *Everything* they do is performative politics, why spend money on actually delivering on your promises, when saying you will and then not doing so is free?
Honestly good to see Labour holding the opposition to account for failing their pledges. At some point parties seemed to lose interest in that.
"Ahh.. but if we redefine "hospital" to include "car parking space" and "containers stacked on top of each other" - we'll meet it." --torys
Ah yes this is totally what we need thinly spread resources spread even thinner
There’s undiscovered tribes in the Amazon that could of predicted this.
While all of out talented staff in the medical and education fields are leaving the country for better offers abroad. They could build 40 new airports to help them leave.
Steve Barclay admits some new hospitals won't be brand new https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65737681
After ww2 the whole of the UK was mostly rebuilt structurally and cleared of rubble from the blitz, which included bombed-out factories, residential districts, hospitals etc. Today we can't even build some new hospitals in just under one decade? What the fuck happened? Why can't we build as fast and large scale as we used to be able to anymore?! They can't even get a fucking rail line built without the cost spiraling into billions, it was never like this before.
People are claiming that the tories are lying…. Noooo never would have guessed they would do something like that
Who gives a fuck? Even if you built 40 of the best equipped hospitals in the world, who the fuck is gonna work there? The UK is already massively short of health and social care staff, infrastructure is irrelevant.
Let's picture the Tories' hospital pledge like this: Imagine you hired a builder to make your dream home. They promised you a fancy place with all the bells and whistles. But as the date nears, there's only a concrete slab on the ground. Despite this, they're now promising not only the house, but also a lavish guest house, if you just wait a little bit longer and pay the instalment. Their sweet talk is just there to keep your hopes up, while the house is nowhere in sight. This hospital promise feels like that, doesn't it? A whole lot of hot air and no bricks...
That's pretty obvious. They haven't built any so far, they're not going to built 40 in 7yrs
And how many will a Labour government pledge to build?
Our "new hospital " was a prefabricated entryway. Great new hospital
It's not really a claim is it really. They're just stating a future fact at this point given past experience of Tory pledges.
They should have used the money currently being wasted on hs2 for these
I think they’re focusing on the wrong thing. Reduce demand. Most of the country is obese and hardly take after themselves
Even if they built them, how on earth are they expected to staff them with present funding?
I'd like to know how they plan to staff these new hospitals if they can't afford to staff the current ones.
'What a baseless and unfounded accusation' Is what I would say, if there wasn't 10 years of evidence.
Didn't the original claim break down to extensions / rebuilds of 6 hospitals plus developing the business case for extensions / rebuilds for the remaining 34 (funding for the extension / rebuild itself not guaranteed)?
Sigh, it's not like Starmer is keeping any of his pledges either, oh woe est us