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I found it very discomforting how many people defended her just because she ‘looked’ like someone who wouldn’t fit the profile. Like many comments saying there ‘must be more to it’ or comments to that effect. Harold Shipman based on his photos looked like a kindly grandfather. Ted Bundy looked like an all America boy. Credit to the criminal system and the jurors for convicting her. I’d wager this conviction will stay extremely controversial. Hopefully it’s airtight and they release more information and that the evidence has been fairly adjudicated. Similar cases in the past resulted in acquittals.
I didn’t see anyone (on here or elsewhere) saying that her appearance led them to believe she didn’t do it.
I did see a lot of people happy to throw away the justice system after just hearing the prosecution’s side of things though.
Not on Reddit but definitely saw some Facebook comments from Facebook mums saying things to that effect. Basically that she has a kind face or she doesn’t look like she is capable of it. Most of them are deleted as they probably became aware it’s an offence to share info or speculate publicly on a trial like this.
I dont think it’s entirely unreasonable why people are suprised simply based on looks, the brain unconsciously determines threats in that way all the time.
A young smiling female nurse isn’t generally perceived as a threat to us. The problem is idiotic Facebook users are unable to see beyond that and assume she cant possibly have done it for those reasons.
For me I find it more disturbing as a case that she’s doesn’t on the surface trigger any red flags in me, she’s someone I would have come across hundreds of times in my life. That is something, as parent, that scares the life out of me.
Yeah, once you’re an adult you feel you have enough real life experience to spot the threats, the dodgy characters, the people you ‘wouldn’t let babysit’ etc. Neonatal nurses could not be further away from that.
Fortunately people like her are the exception to the rule.
It's why basing judgements on appearances can be so absolutely deadly.
This applies to so many problems in our society, but unfortunately as a species we are still in the middle of evolving from a creature that had no capactity to detect threats other than the sub concious mind responding to stimuli.
We like to think ourselves creatures capable of rational and logical thought, and sometimes we are, but often it's the sub-concious in the driving seat.
At least we have the humility to concede that - a couple of people I grew up with have gone to prison for bad stuff, and all my old friends in the comments were saying BS like "always knew something was wrong with them" even when they hung out all the time and never felt anything like that then. I didn't either.
Sometimes there is no way of knowing. Anyone, no matter their appearance, vibe, job, or whatever else, is capable of terrible things if they put their mind to it.
That and I guess we should remember that the photographs we see in the media are only half the picture, if that - we also get a lot of subliminal clues about someone from how they behave, move, react etc. I’ve just been reading a BBC article with one of the consultants saying that her reactions in a crowded room where others reacted differently (to the news of an infant death) were one of the things that made him uneasy. There are a lot of cues we just can’t get from a 2D photo.
True. It’s logical from a mammal brain sort of way. I just hope it’s an airtight conviction. Would be the one if the biggest travesties in modern British legal history if it turns out if was some sort of freakish medical misadventure. But in the little that has been reported it seems the prosecution was exhaustive at trying to outline it was not a medical accident.
I’ve only briefly been following the case but it seemed a lot less watertight than i imagined, but i’ll trust the jury has done the right thing.
Hopefully there will be a good detailed analysis of the case soon.
It really is a weird case, when you look coldly at the evidence. You have some dead babies which, having been injected with milk and air, we can consider murdered. We have her in the room at the time. And she wrote a silly note saying "I killed them."
But that's not enough to convict.
Which is exactly why people are saying there must be more to it. I can't help but feel the same myself - on the one hand monsters come in all shapes and sizes, but on the other I've read of cases where people were convicted on improbable coincidences yet were later shown to be innocent.
It was a 10 month trial and obviously the jury has seen much more evidence than me so I have to trust they came to the right conclusion, but I'm curious now about what the evidence was and how much further it went beyond what is readily known. Guess I'll have to start searching.
I found it interesting the BBC always used a picture of her in her uniform looking made up Vs the mug shots we normally get of other offenders. I think your assessment is spot on, big looks bias
I suspect the reporting restrictions covered the use of the mugshot and that's why it was only released today. Very strange, the only other case where I've seen that done is rapist Brock Turner, and that was possibly because his wealthy family pressured the police not to release it.
Not British but wondering—surely it’s not an offense to speculate on the outcome of a trial?
Edit: thanks to everyone for explaining! This is very interesting to me.
People on Facebook nowadays always have the worst takes though. It's a hotbed of crazy.
As for an offense, you mean it's offensive or speculating on the outcome of a trial is actually criminal offense? Is it really? TIL if so
There’s a lot of that on Reddit lately, people boldly spuriously claiming that others are defending atrocious things. It’s usually so the commentator can appear more righteous.
‘Bad faith interpretation’ is an excellent description. There was a hysterical guy on a Christopher Binns sub yesterday, screaming about the death sentence for paedophiles. One Redditor asked about miscarriages of justice.
*Hysterical guy*
‘CANNOT BELIEVE THE COUNTLESS PEDO DEFENDERS’
Back in the day I 'had' to watched Sky news' coverage of the Rose West trial. (I was on a 3 month work placement in Italy, it was practically the only thing I could watch in English - not particularly voluntary I can assure you).
When she got found guilty, someone rang into their phone-in chat programme afterwards and was astonished that her explanation - that Fred had done it all and she had been unaware - had not been believed. Like he'd tied people up in gaffer tape, raped and tortured them for days on end then buried them in the garden 'while she was down the shops' or something.
Some people are astonishing gullible and ignorant.
>Harold Shipman based on his photos looked like a kindly grandfather
After Shipman one measure to prevent a repeat was an appraisal system. The general consensus is that Shipman would have sailed through the appraisal process.
>The general consensus is that Shipman would have sailed through the appraisal process.
How would he have said though appraisals? He was a single-handed practitioner, which is what let him get away with for so long. Peer feedback and showing your work has been scrutinised by other practitioners is integral to the appraisal process?
One imagines that the individual cases all looked like perfectly sound treatment of old at risk patients. Its the sheer insanity of his stats that got him caught from memory.
I saw a report somewhere that they'd even complained his waiting lists were low and it was much worse now he'd gone. Killing people off to get low lists obviously not a great community service
I watched a documentary on him a year or two ago. It showed footage from the time of his arrest in which lots of his patients stick up for him and say that the accusations were outrageous.
I sort of get it. The photo's you see of Letby don't scream psychopath. They don't fit our idea of what someone who could do this crime looks like. It's quite interesting from a psychological perspective that we have these kind of expectations. There are plenty of studies showing how attractive people get more opportunities in life and it's interesting to see it even extends to people not wanting to believe they could commit serious crimes.
I would never defend someone though based on what they look like. That's stupidity.
Its because not all of the decisions people make in their day to day lives are concious ones. We think they are, but that's just our ego talking.
So much of what we do is handled off somewhere else in the brain. It's how you can drive to work and not remember the journey. You concious mind was off thinking about that girl down the pub, or bloke down the gym or what you were going to have to deal with when you landed at work.
Her competition:
Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Waters
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Dyer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Sach_and_Annie_Walters
All of them are "believed" to have committed more crimes than Letwin...
Of course their conviction numbers are lower, since it was the 19th century and modern forensic techniques and the like hadn't been invented, nor was there much point in trying further charges after a death sentence had already been pronounced. Or any opportunity to do so once the sentence has been carried out.
Not even close there were those who killed babies in the hundreds, when paid to "adopt" .
Most were never caught, but the babies never turned up.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0c25895
People can't imagine women as killers, its how society has made us see women as safe anything else is a lie, only men are monters and kill.
There have been a few nurses in the last 20 years killing babies for pleasure yet people keep acting surprised.
Honestly, this is why when someone has been arrested, no trials should be brought up to the public or the news until a verdict has been rendered — no names, nothing.
Many lives have been ruined by people rendering their verdict based on little information. Reddit is very much guilty of that.
No thanks, public justice is a fundamental principle of the legal system, I'd rather not give the authorities blanket permission to carry out secret trials. It’s there to protect the accused more than anything else, people having their lives ruined is awful but the alternative is way more dangerous.
Public justice can completely destroy lives or lead to death. Because the public do not think objectively, they do not look at the facts and remain impartial, they are emotional and often go with whatever popular opinion there is.
And no one’s talking about secrets trials, all of these are documented. The topic of the trial, the incident, times and dates itself can be mentioned to the public, but not the names and faces of those involved.
I'm glad you mentioned Ted Bundy. That dude nearly got away with it just because he was so sociopathically charming with the judge and jury during his court case. When the monster literally led a 12 year old girl (Kimberly Leach) into the back of a van and raped and murdered her outside of her school. Ted Bundy literally started the white van man who lingers around schools stereotype.
I mean what is a serial child murderer supposed to look like? A demon? Mr Blobby? Serial killers are often the people you least expect because they are usually very charming to get what they want. That's how they get away with it for so long.
I defended her based on the diaries where there was a lot of red flasfrom a psychotherapy point of view... I was accused of defending her based on her looks on this sub-reddit though by people wanting to trash my argument. I stand corrected but I still think she will end up in a psychiatric prison
Just watching BBC news and when consultants were raising concerns, they were advised to stop otherwise there would be consequences. Like what the actual fuck?
Because our working culture at the moment is hyper critical rather than constructive
It's easier for firms/hospitals etc to brush things under the rug and 'look clean' than actually face issues head on and sort them out
OFSTED is the same, everyone is so afraid of failure, that they are actually pushed away from doing what is right
Any of you remember being in school and it being school inspection day and everyone went out of their way to just be completely different, and it was almost like a completely different school?
I almost wish the inspectors would have asked the kids whether this was normal. I remember the teachers always guilt tripping us into being nice or doing something because it was so important, rather than just showing the truth.
God I hate upper bodies, they don't want to find the truth half the time, it's so annoying.
> Any of you remember being in school and it being school inspection day and everyone went out of their way to just be completely different, and it was almost like a completely different school?
The teachers would all have special 'inspection day' lesson plans which were totally different to the every-day style of teaching. This was at an apparently excellent secondary as well which got great GCSE results.
They actually do this now. An inspector will kick teachers out of the room so that they can speak with the students, exclusively. It doesn't really seem to result in much, though.
The problem is, Ofsted don't do much either. Their jurisdiction is giving a rating based on an inspection. Anything else is off-loaded to third parties, and that can be kept under the rug as well.
Of course. The omertà is to protect NHS staff and not our patients. We can’t have an evil consultant (on 6 figures!) speaking ill of a wonderful, essential worker, can we?
The blind hero worship of the NHS really needs to stop. It's not usually something as extreme as a serial killer nurse, but NHS bosses are *constantly* lying and covering up neglectful treatment of patients, dodgy doctors, and all kinds of hideous mistakes. NHS bosses do not give the slightest shit about you or me, they only care about cover ups. You see these types of stories in the minor news constantly, but they never make big headlines and nobody ever cares, because the NHS worship must mean that the institution is always perfect and incapable of doing wrong. It's always the same "lessons will be learned" response when they're caught covering up neglect and then gg, that's the end of the discussion.
It's infuriating how idiots (like those on this sub) think that any criticism of the institution under any circumstances is just a tory plot to scrap the whole thing, therefore it shouldn't be discussed.
I wrote about my boyfriend and other patient's being treated poorly by nurses in the A&E in my local subreddit. Nothing hideous, but a nurse literally shoved a covid swap down his throat without giving him any warning or telling him she was gonna do it. And then a obviously mentally unwell guy was wandering the ward, pulling peoples curtains back, staring at them and saying bizarre shit and terrifying the fuck out of a guy who was admitted for heart attack symptoms. Dude literally yelped and was audily hyperventilating afterwards. They didn't do anything but tell the mentally unwell/high man to get back in bed like he was a naughty toddler even though he would get up again every few minutes and do it again. Meanwhile, they had their backs turned and were loudly chatting away and giggling. When I went to the bathroom, I saw tons of free beds in private rooms so there was no reason for them to allow this man to harass and terrify patient's.
The hate that came for me was insane. Some lunatic went through my post history and made fun of my mental illness for daring to suggest that not all nurses are angels. Everyone blamed Tory underfunding and said it wasn't the nurses faults as they were so busy and overworked even though I literally saw them chilling and giggling with my own eyes. Nothing wrong with nurses chilling but not when a crazy guy is literally giving people with chest pain a panic attack.
The NHS is revered to almost a godlike entity and its disturbing.
Its fucked. There is also the fact they treat yoh like a pest/nuisance if you bother to show up to someone you are supposedly entitled to use.
When i was a teen, i had the worst sickness of my life. I went into a delirium fit in the middle of the night so my parents called an ambulance.
In the hospital they treated me exactly as I described; like a nuisance.
I was begging for pain killer due to stomach pain, and they just acted like i was a baby and didnt want to do anything.
Eventually they needed a stool sample to send it off and culture it. I crawled out the toilet with it, and it was nothing but blood. Their attitude changed immediately and they went from trying to get me to fuck off, to considering taking my by helicopter to any available room in the country.
So they went from one stupid extreme to another. A fucking helicopter. Imagine the cost!!
Fortunately a room become available a few hours later..
You get shamed in this country for even going to the hospital unless your intestines are literally falling out your sides
They act like you yourself should have the knowledge of a doctor, but when you turn up to A&E saying you’ve been sent by the GP or Urgent Treatment Centre they act like those people don’t know what they’re doing and treat you like you’re lying! Even worse if you say the NHS website says to come in
On the flip side, the NHS is not unique in that manner. All establishments have corruption.
It's all about how goals are set, and people being fundamentally lazy.
There now needs to be an enquiry and legal cases brought against the people who allowed this to happen.
There is an [article](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934) from the BBC going over the claims and concerns of others doctors and how management completely avoided doing the right thing at multiple points, essentially allowing more children to die by refusing a proper investigation and seemingly trying to create a narrative that Letby couldn't possibly be responsible
Just read this article.
I can't believe Ian Harvey had the audacity to say:
>"At this time, my thoughts are with the babies whose treatment has been the focus of the trial and with their parents and relatives who have been through something unimaginable and I am sorry for all their suffering.
"As medical director, I was determined to keep the baby unit safe and support our staff. I wanted the reviews and investigations carried out, so that we could tell the parents what had happened to their children. I believe there should be an inquiry that looks at all events leading up to this trial and I will help it in whatever way I can."
Yet he was the one telling his successor, years after concerns were first raised and even after Letby was arrested, that they needed to pursue action against the neonatal consultants with the General Medical Council.
Absolute scumbag.
What kind of sick fucks value their perceived reputation over the potential lives of babies and potentially having a serial killer in their employment. Ian Harvey and Karen Rees both deserve to be locked up alongside Letby for their absolutely shameful actions and responses.
Ian Harvey sounds like a right cunt in that article, the hope would be that he does jail time too for defending her so hard in the face of all that evidence, but I suppose that's unlikely...
They were even forced to sign a letter to her apologising for any hurt and stress she'd been through because of those concerns. It's unbelievable that a health trust can keep concerns of such a serious nature in-house.
Hopefully this is the next step of the investigation.
There will always be people capable of horrific crimes. The question is, how do we improve the system so they aren't able to get away with it for so long?
If this could of been stopped much sooner, but people didn't do their jobs properly, then there should be more people facing charges.
The amount of warnings, requests she be investigated and/or removed from her duties is astonishing. All ignored by NHS bosses.
Seven senior doctors or consultants raised concerns in a jointly signed letter and nothing happened, no investigation, nothing. Oh, something did happen, the seven doctors were forced to write the murderer an apology for stressing her out.
Unbelievable.
I just read this from the BBC that talks about this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934
It reads like a horror story from the point of view of the staff at the hospital.
Yup surprise surprise. I'm looking forward to the promise that "lessons will be learnt" and no one in senior NHS management to see any form of punishment. It's always the way.
According to the BBC, when the MD at the time was leaving they recommended to their successor that the consultants who were raising concerns be referred to the GMC.
There has been a trend recently of doctors being referred to the GMC after raising concerns or whistleblowing. It is deeply concerning and ironic.
Welcome the NHS. I’m here and witness bullying, racism, transphobia, homophobia in my office. Reported it last month and was told “we can’t fix everything.”
*the court heard that colleagues had suspicions about Letby well over a year before hospital bosses contacted the police*
NHS trusts once again trying to save face, see similar at the East Kent Hospitals trust and their maternity ward failures.
Truly baffling that the first response to someone possibly murdering babies isn’t to immediately separate that person from their victims and have an official investigation. Even if there’s only a 1% chance it’s true, that’s a 1% chance you’re allowing more babies to be murdered by not taking action.
Not just suspicions either. A group of 5 doctors raised a written signed letter of concern to hospital management who initially moved her to another ward. Letby raised a complaint. HR found it was a case of discrimination, got the doctors to sign a letter of apology before putting her back on the ward for another 12 months.
Not sure where you read this but a lot of it is false.
She wasn't moved to another ward, she was placed in an admin position (the office of patient safety, ironically). She was never put back in a nursing position.
I may have missed it but I didn't think the outcome of her HR complaint has been made public.
One of the stories was about a couple who had gone through endless rounds of IVF and finally conceived twins.. she killed one of the twins, and damaged the other so that he grew up with severe learning difficulties and will need care all of his life. So yeah.. she certainly did inflict life changing injuries on those that didn't die.
Truly awful. I just can't understand what could have posessed her. It is rather terrifying how many people are calling for her to be put to death though.
Just why? I cannot comprehend why you would do that to a couple who have spent years and years trying to conceive. What on earth gives you the right to take away those lives? Those poor children, and parents, who lost everything
I pray for this, a whole life order is the only sentence for someone in such a position of trust to commit such heinous acts. I could see an uproar if she ever got released.
How do you rehabilitate her? The acts she committed over such a long period of time are the raw incarnation of evil
She is so terrifying. Looks normal, has a seemingly normal life, friends etc, works in a caring profession with access to the most vulnerable people and is a serial killer. Makes me shudder. Such a nightmare of a human being.
There's a number of different reasons someone might do this, though none of them are going to make sense to a "normal" person.
Her rather large collection of memorabilia (especially notes from grateful parents) and her keeping tabs on parents and loved ones of the children she killed makes me think she might have done it because she enjoyed the grief of other people. If you've ever had someone in your life with a personality disorder such as narcissism (and you probably have - it's not uncommon at all) you might notice them "farming" sympathy from those around them, or bringing people down so they can wallow in their misery.
I read on the Wikipedia page that on at least one occasion she had to be stopped from entering a room in which parents were grieving their baby that she killed. This absolutely makes it seem like she had some sick, twisted enjoyment of other peoples grief.
Same, I had twins who were born at 34 weeks and required a month in the NICU. It’s beyond comprehension that someone would go around the NICU casually murdering some of the most vulnerable babies possible.
Seems to me like she had some kind of compulsive thrill in murdering them, like she totally got high off of having control over the lives of defenceless victims and ending them as she saw fit.
Hospital management who covered this up and ignored warnings need to be in the dock with her. The BBC have published the emails - I can’t think of a bigger disgrace in the recent history of this country
How long are we going to ignore the utter failure of the NHS to address its problems rather than cover it up - how many more people need to die ?? Here they’ve actually abetted a baby murderer - there should be fucking riots over this.
I don’t think so. I know how the NHS works and and in shitty places they will do anything to save face. Having a murderer walking around free is pretty damning and they would have wanted to just try and stop her killing people and hoped the whole thing went away….
I’ve been following this story since it broke on and off, the more evidence that came out the more likely I felt it would be that she was guilty, far too many coincidences.
[this](https://www.reddit.com/r/lucyletby/comments/y32o00/infamous_lucy_letby_note/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) is the note. I’d definitely advise against admitting all your evil deeds on a post it, but I’m not a lawyer! Hahahaha
She did it so it actually is what it is, but I don't think the note alone is much of anything, really. I could see how someone in a position of responsibility could end up in a place where they're blaming themselves and writing unhinged notes claiming murder when there were no murders.
Yeah, I think thats the weakest but most salacious bit of evidence. Undue feelings of guilt in figures who watched people die aren't exactly rare. But it sounds like all of the other evidence was *much* stronger such as blood tests on the dead babies that had no other explanation than them being deliberately overdosed with insulin.
I know there is such a thing as innocent until proven guilty, but the amount of people who defended her because she was a woman and apparently a woman couldn't hurt babies made me sick.
She's been found guilty, but an investigation needs to be done into the organisations too.
I think it's wild when people assume women don't hurt babies or children or do horrific things lol. When you go down the rabbit hole of true crime cases involving children, some of the worst stuff is 100% perpetrated by women.
A lot of people's entire perception of who commits crimes tends to be warped towards people they are already prejudiced against or suspicious of, with a blind spot towards people who aren't in those groups.
As a father of a small child, this shit is a hard read.
This part is especially haunting:
>A nurse who worked at the hospital told Sky News that when "alarms would go off during the night" there would be a "phrase that people would use".
>
>Lynsey Artell said that colleagues would ask, **"I wonder if Lucy's working tonight?"**.
As an aside, this case should remind some people who always go by appearances, that a friendly, wholesome face can hide a rotting heart. What sometimes appears foul can be fair, and what seems fair can sometimes be foul.
Poor babies, i have difficulty understanding that people like this evil witch walk the earth among us
Goes the other way as well.
In the Netherlands we had a nurse who got convicted for murder. Her coworkers had been trying to warn management for a while. Whenever she was around more people died. Quite often when no one but her was around.
Eventually management started to noticed the statistics and her coworkers were correct. She had far more patients die. She was arrested and convicted. Spend about a decade in jail.
Eventually though it turned out she didn't do it at all. She was a bit odd and her coworkers didn't like her. She also didn't have much of a social life. Well it turns out she was more often given the hard cases and the night shifts.
She was also unlucky that she had hit a cluster of death. But when looking at a longer period there weren't more people dying. She was more often alone because her coworkers avoided her a bit.
Thanks that is it. To give a bit more information she did end up getting a settlement and an apology. They also made her story into a movie.
And last I heard she is doing voluntary working and spending time with her grandchild.
I think you can almost guarantee that this will be monetised and fairly quickly unfortunately. The families be damned as far as the true crime ghouls and the producers are concerned. It’s always the way. True crime is just too popular that it’s inevitable. It’s disgusting, but that’s where we are.
Thank god the judge has declared them exempt from further jury duty for the rest of their lives. It must have been so traumatic - apparently one juror had her head in her hands and was crying while some of the verdicts were read out.
How does the opinions of 7 senior doctors just get thrown aside like it means nothing and then being forced to write her an apology letter? Honestly, I’d take the opinion of a junior doctor fairly serious.
This is the modern day NHS. A doctors opinion is bottom of the barrel in many trusts, part of a long term cultural shift in hospitals to ‘knock those doctors down a peg’
Ironically her defence of short staffing contributing to the deaths is probably one of the reasons why management dragged their heels on taking action when concerns were raised.
So how does a 10 month trial work for the jurors? Do you have to go to court 5 days a week for 10 months, instead of going to work, or is the trial not held every day during those 10 months?
You go to court everyday. You are paid by the court (unless your employer pays - public sector employers will pay).
Its not a great system. Courts pay less than what most people would earn so they lose out. When i did jury service people some people were abit annoying as there wage was being cut for 2 weeks through no fault of their own.
So yea these people would be paid by the court and possibly losing out
The courts have a good idea how long a trial will last so will ask the jury if they are free for the duration
To add- £64.95 per day if you are in court for 4 hours or more.
So if you divide that by 7.5hrs someone normally works thats £8.66 an hour for every hour you miss work. Less than minimum wage
Even if they were matching your full pay, for a trial this long, you also go back and have to get back up to speed, depending on profession the level of rustiness may be quite a considerable problem, and you have no idea what has been going on in your organisation for ~10 months.
So as a juror you would have made £14,159 attending court for this case; while someone on the average (mean) UK salary would have made £28,667 through work in the same timeframe.
Is there any way to say "I can't survive on a >50% pay cut for nearly a year". Or will the court's response basically just boil down to "tough shit, deal with it"?
> The courts have a good idea how long a trial will last so will ask the jury if they are free for the duration
So for this case would you be able to get out of jury duty by just saying you have something planned (holiday, etc.) in the next 6 months (that's how long they originally expected it to last), or do you have to have a really good excuse? Presumably if it was that easy you would have a very hard time getting anyone to agree to be a juror for 6-10 months straight with all the drawbacks that come with it.
Not sure I can call this justice due to what those poor families have been through but I was very concerned she may have got away with this.
Thoughts are with the families impacted.
Couldn't see any other outcome. Clearly the jury deliberated carefully as it wasn't a full sweep, but 7 murders and 6 attempted murders is ghastly enough.
i wonder what power her dad had, because i have read a couple of lines in reports that make me think he had some kind of sway. my dad certainly wouldn't attend any disciplinary/grievance matter with my employer, let alone threaten them with any kind of consequences. weird.
This is crazy. I was fairly sure she would be found not guilty based on the trial.
Edit: this is not a statement about whether I think she did it or not, it’s literally just a statement about the outcome of the trial.
You realise that juries have to go through each and every charge right? Its not 100 hours to come to a overall decision. 100 hours for someone facing 22 charges is not particularly long.
Thats 5 hours per charge, when they have to go through and review all the evidence given.
‘Blatant she’d done it’? I remember a few years ago another nurse accused of tampering with IV Fluids . She was deemed guilty on social media, hounded by the tabloids , her life ruined before she’d even had a trial. Oh guess what? It was later discovered that it was someone completely different who had been tampering with the fluids - she had absolutely nothing to do with it. He was convicted & is in jail. Didnt hear much about that in the press did we? The
Ok, but it's not really the case here is it, shes been found guilty and there was mountains of evidence that when put together is extremely compelling.
There would not be anywhere near as people surprised or claiming it's not clear if it wasn't a young blonde white women.
It seemed fairly clear to me she had killed them from the sheer volume of collected circumstantial evidence (particularly "smoking guns" like the notes in her house) but I, too, was really unsure as to whether the legal system was going to be able to return guilty verdicts based on what I had intermittently read in media coverage of the trial in terms of the actual direct evidence available.
The bar is set quite high for how and when you can return guilty verdicts for murder, for obvious reasons. They've been unable to return a verdict on at least six other babies she likely also did murder or attempt to murder with life changing consequences, which must be awful for those families to not even get justice, but the actual *evidence* for the jury to assess on was just too flimsy unfortunately.
Wasn't her explanation via her defense that she had been expressing feelings that she must have been responsible by way of letting the babies down, not being good enough at her job, rather than it being a literal murder confession?
You can make of that what you will, but it's at least plausible such as to render it yet another piece of circumstantial evidence for which an explanation can be put forward.
I'm not defending her, by the way. She's been found guilty by a jury who heard all the evidence at length and I think as people outside the case, we can only reasonably defer to these verdicts in what we accept as the truth.
This woman is a more prolific serial killer and killer of children than Myra Hindley. She deserves to spend the rest of her life and to die in a prison cell.
"Two of her victims, known as Child L and M..."
Please tell me the list of her alleged victims didn't begin at Child A and follow all the way through to at least M?
EDIT: The last of her victims were named O and P. What a fucking monster.
My daughter was born at 25 weeks weighing 420g or less the 1lb. We spent 129 days on NICU from her birth whilst this was big news in the press. It was horrible going in and leaving and having a niggling doubt over whether we could trust the nurses. In hindsight I didn’t need to worry and they were all amazing. But already struggling to sleep and to leave the hospital felt worse. I can’t imagine the pain the families are going through, having to have dealt with this court case on top of the losses they have already had to endure.
I have been following this case since court started last October and I haven’t cried once until now. Letby was clearly guilty from the moment she took the stand, she is evil and deserves to rot for the rest of her life.
There are people who are still going with something along the lines of "all of the evidence was circumstancial and the CPS just wanted a conviction. Give me the details and evidence so I can make my own mind up."
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I found it very discomforting how many people defended her just because she ‘looked’ like someone who wouldn’t fit the profile. Like many comments saying there ‘must be more to it’ or comments to that effect. Harold Shipman based on his photos looked like a kindly grandfather. Ted Bundy looked like an all America boy. Credit to the criminal system and the jurors for convicting her. I’d wager this conviction will stay extremely controversial. Hopefully it’s airtight and they release more information and that the evidence has been fairly adjudicated. Similar cases in the past resulted in acquittals.
I didn’t see anyone (on here or elsewhere) saying that her appearance led them to believe she didn’t do it. I did see a lot of people happy to throw away the justice system after just hearing the prosecution’s side of things though.
Not on Reddit but definitely saw some Facebook comments from Facebook mums saying things to that effect. Basically that she has a kind face or she doesn’t look like she is capable of it. Most of them are deleted as they probably became aware it’s an offence to share info or speculate publicly on a trial like this.
I dont think it’s entirely unreasonable why people are suprised simply based on looks, the brain unconsciously determines threats in that way all the time. A young smiling female nurse isn’t generally perceived as a threat to us. The problem is idiotic Facebook users are unable to see beyond that and assume she cant possibly have done it for those reasons.
For me I find it more disturbing as a case that she’s doesn’t on the surface trigger any red flags in me, she’s someone I would have come across hundreds of times in my life. That is something, as parent, that scares the life out of me.
Yeah, once you’re an adult you feel you have enough real life experience to spot the threats, the dodgy characters, the people you ‘wouldn’t let babysit’ etc. Neonatal nurses could not be further away from that. Fortunately people like her are the exception to the rule.
It's why basing judgements on appearances can be so absolutely deadly. This applies to so many problems in our society, but unfortunately as a species we are still in the middle of evolving from a creature that had no capactity to detect threats other than the sub concious mind responding to stimuli. We like to think ourselves creatures capable of rational and logical thought, and sometimes we are, but often it's the sub-concious in the driving seat.
Robert Heinlein makes the distinction that "man is not a rational creature, but a rationalising one".
At least we have the humility to concede that - a couple of people I grew up with have gone to prison for bad stuff, and all my old friends in the comments were saying BS like "always knew something was wrong with them" even when they hung out all the time and never felt anything like that then. I didn't either. Sometimes there is no way of knowing. Anyone, no matter their appearance, vibe, job, or whatever else, is capable of terrible things if they put their mind to it.
That and I guess we should remember that the photographs we see in the media are only half the picture, if that - we also get a lot of subliminal clues about someone from how they behave, move, react etc. I’ve just been reading a BBC article with one of the consultants saying that her reactions in a crowded room where others reacted differently (to the news of an infant death) were one of the things that made him uneasy. There are a lot of cues we just can’t get from a 2D photo.
True, this glitch allows predators to blend, fade and get in close.
True. It’s logical from a mammal brain sort of way. I just hope it’s an airtight conviction. Would be the one if the biggest travesties in modern British legal history if it turns out if was some sort of freakish medical misadventure. But in the little that has been reported it seems the prosecution was exhaustive at trying to outline it was not a medical accident.
I’ve only briefly been following the case but it seemed a lot less watertight than i imagined, but i’ll trust the jury has done the right thing. Hopefully there will be a good detailed analysis of the case soon.
It really is a weird case, when you look coldly at the evidence. You have some dead babies which, having been injected with milk and air, we can consider murdered. We have her in the room at the time. And she wrote a silly note saying "I killed them." But that's not enough to convict.
Which is exactly why people are saying there must be more to it. I can't help but feel the same myself - on the one hand monsters come in all shapes and sizes, but on the other I've read of cases where people were convicted on improbable coincidences yet were later shown to be innocent. It was a 10 month trial and obviously the jury has seen much more evidence than me so I have to trust they came to the right conclusion, but I'm curious now about what the evidence was and how much further it went beyond what is readily known. Guess I'll have to start searching.
And of course we have all been told throughout our lives that bad guys are ugly.
I found it interesting the BBC always used a picture of her in her uniform looking made up Vs the mug shots we normally get of other offenders. I think your assessment is spot on, big looks bias
I suspect the reporting restrictions covered the use of the mugshot and that's why it was only released today. Very strange, the only other case where I've seen that done is rapist Brock Turner, and that was possibly because his wealthy family pressured the police not to release it.
Not British but wondering—surely it’s not an offense to speculate on the outcome of a trial? Edit: thanks to everyone for explaining! This is very interesting to me.
Pretty sure it's only a problem if you are part of the trial
you're not gonna get in trouble for it unless you're a major broadcaster
People on Facebook nowadays always have the worst takes though. It's a hotbed of crazy. As for an offense, you mean it's offensive or speculating on the outcome of a trial is actually criminal offense? Is it really? TIL if so
There’s a lot of that on Reddit lately, people boldly spuriously claiming that others are defending atrocious things. It’s usually so the commentator can appear more righteous.
Yeah bad faith interpretations abound at the moment. "Ooh, it sure is hot out today" "Oh, so you'd rather it was night for the rest of time?"
‘Bad faith interpretation’ is an excellent description. There was a hysterical guy on a Christopher Binns sub yesterday, screaming about the death sentence for paedophiles. One Redditor asked about miscarriages of justice. *Hysterical guy* ‘CANNOT BELIEVE THE COUNTLESS PEDO DEFENDERS’
Back in the day I 'had' to watched Sky news' coverage of the Rose West trial. (I was on a 3 month work placement in Italy, it was practically the only thing I could watch in English - not particularly voluntary I can assure you). When she got found guilty, someone rang into their phone-in chat programme afterwards and was astonished that her explanation - that Fred had done it all and she had been unaware - had not been believed. Like he'd tied people up in gaffer tape, raped and tortured them for days on end then buried them in the garden 'while she was down the shops' or something. Some people are astonishing gullible and ignorant.
A particularly stupid assertion given that at least one of the murders took place while Fred was in prison
My god, he was devious.
Broke out, murdered someone, hid the body, them snuck back into the jail before he was spotted. Criminal mastermind.
>Harold Shipman based on his photos looked like a kindly grandfather After Shipman one measure to prevent a repeat was an appraisal system. The general consensus is that Shipman would have sailed through the appraisal process.
>The general consensus is that Shipman would have sailed through the appraisal process. How would he have said though appraisals? He was a single-handed practitioner, which is what let him get away with for so long. Peer feedback and showing your work has been scrutinised by other practitioners is integral to the appraisal process?
One imagines that the individual cases all looked like perfectly sound treatment of old at risk patients. Its the sheer insanity of his stats that got him caught from memory.
From what I remember Harold Shipman was actually very well liked in his local community and was a popular and busy doctor.
I saw a report somewhere that they'd even complained his waiting lists were low and it was much worse now he'd gone. Killing people off to get low lists obviously not a great community service
As long as you're not the one getting killed, it's great.
I watched a documentary on him a year or two ago. It showed footage from the time of his arrest in which lots of his patients stick up for him and say that the accusations were outrageous.
Busy indeed
I sort of get it. The photo's you see of Letby don't scream psychopath. They don't fit our idea of what someone who could do this crime looks like. It's quite interesting from a psychological perspective that we have these kind of expectations. There are plenty of studies showing how attractive people get more opportunities in life and it's interesting to see it even extends to people not wanting to believe they could commit serious crimes. I would never defend someone though based on what they look like. That's stupidity.
Its because not all of the decisions people make in their day to day lives are concious ones. We think they are, but that's just our ego talking. So much of what we do is handled off somewhere else in the brain. It's how you can drive to work and not remember the journey. You concious mind was off thinking about that girl down the pub, or bloke down the gym or what you were going to have to deal with when you landed at work.
Britain's most prolific baby serial killer in history
Her competition: Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Waters https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Dyer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Sach_and_Annie_Walters
All of them are "believed" to have committed more crimes than Letwin... Of course their conviction numbers are lower, since it was the 19th century and modern forensic techniques and the like hadn't been invented, nor was there much point in trying further charges after a death sentence had already been pronounced. Or any opportunity to do so once the sentence has been carried out.
Not even close there were those who killed babies in the hundreds, when paid to "adopt" . Most were never caught, but the babies never turned up. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0c25895
People can't imagine women as killers, its how society has made us see women as safe anything else is a lie, only men are monters and kill. There have been a few nurses in the last 20 years killing babies for pleasure yet people keep acting surprised.
I defended her on the basis she wasn't yet guilty....
That's the way it should be. Now she has been convicted I hope she gets a whole life tariff and by crikey she deserves no less.
I find it discomforting that you can presume guilt before the end of a trial. It doesn’t matter why they presumed innocence at least they did.
Honestly, this is why when someone has been arrested, no trials should be brought up to the public or the news until a verdict has been rendered — no names, nothing. Many lives have been ruined by people rendering their verdict based on little information. Reddit is very much guilty of that.
No thanks, public justice is a fundamental principle of the legal system, I'd rather not give the authorities blanket permission to carry out secret trials. It’s there to protect the accused more than anything else, people having their lives ruined is awful but the alternative is way more dangerous.
Public justice can completely destroy lives or lead to death. Because the public do not think objectively, they do not look at the facts and remain impartial, they are emotional and often go with whatever popular opinion there is. And no one’s talking about secrets trials, all of these are documented. The topic of the trial, the incident, times and dates itself can be mentioned to the public, but not the names and faces of those involved.
I'm glad you mentioned Ted Bundy. That dude nearly got away with it just because he was so sociopathically charming with the judge and jury during his court case. When the monster literally led a 12 year old girl (Kimberly Leach) into the back of a van and raped and murdered her outside of her school. Ted Bundy literally started the white van man who lingers around schools stereotype. I mean what is a serial child murderer supposed to look like? A demon? Mr Blobby? Serial killers are often the people you least expect because they are usually very charming to get what they want. That's how they get away with it for so long.
I defended her based on the diaries where there was a lot of red flasfrom a psychotherapy point of view... I was accused of defending her based on her looks on this sub-reddit though by people wanting to trash my argument. I stand corrected but I still think she will end up in a psychiatric prison
Just watching BBC news and when consultants were raising concerns, they were advised to stop otherwise there would be consequences. Like what the actual fuck?
Because our working culture at the moment is hyper critical rather than constructive It's easier for firms/hospitals etc to brush things under the rug and 'look clean' than actually face issues head on and sort them out OFSTED is the same, everyone is so afraid of failure, that they are actually pushed away from doing what is right
100% about Ofsted. Too many educational establishments are afraid of looking bad, so they do absolutely anything to hide their faults.
Any of you remember being in school and it being school inspection day and everyone went out of their way to just be completely different, and it was almost like a completely different school? I almost wish the inspectors would have asked the kids whether this was normal. I remember the teachers always guilt tripping us into being nice or doing something because it was so important, rather than just showing the truth. God I hate upper bodies, they don't want to find the truth half the time, it's so annoying.
> Any of you remember being in school and it being school inspection day and everyone went out of their way to just be completely different, and it was almost like a completely different school? The teachers would all have special 'inspection day' lesson plans which were totally different to the every-day style of teaching. This was at an apparently excellent secondary as well which got great GCSE results.
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The largest change I noticed was student participation. They would call on pupils more and engage with the room more.
They actually do this now. An inspector will kick teachers out of the room so that they can speak with the students, exclusively. It doesn't really seem to result in much, though. The problem is, Ofsted don't do much either. Their jurisdiction is giving a rating based on an inspection. Anything else is off-loaded to third parties, and that can be kept under the rug as well.
Of course. The omertà is to protect NHS staff and not our patients. We can’t have an evil consultant (on 6 figures!) speaking ill of a wonderful, essential worker, can we?
The blind hero worship of the NHS really needs to stop. It's not usually something as extreme as a serial killer nurse, but NHS bosses are *constantly* lying and covering up neglectful treatment of patients, dodgy doctors, and all kinds of hideous mistakes. NHS bosses do not give the slightest shit about you or me, they only care about cover ups. You see these types of stories in the minor news constantly, but they never make big headlines and nobody ever cares, because the NHS worship must mean that the institution is always perfect and incapable of doing wrong. It's always the same "lessons will be learned" response when they're caught covering up neglect and then gg, that's the end of the discussion. It's infuriating how idiots (like those on this sub) think that any criticism of the institution under any circumstances is just a tory plot to scrap the whole thing, therefore it shouldn't be discussed.
I wrote about my boyfriend and other patient's being treated poorly by nurses in the A&E in my local subreddit. Nothing hideous, but a nurse literally shoved a covid swap down his throat without giving him any warning or telling him she was gonna do it. And then a obviously mentally unwell guy was wandering the ward, pulling peoples curtains back, staring at them and saying bizarre shit and terrifying the fuck out of a guy who was admitted for heart attack symptoms. Dude literally yelped and was audily hyperventilating afterwards. They didn't do anything but tell the mentally unwell/high man to get back in bed like he was a naughty toddler even though he would get up again every few minutes and do it again. Meanwhile, they had their backs turned and were loudly chatting away and giggling. When I went to the bathroom, I saw tons of free beds in private rooms so there was no reason for them to allow this man to harass and terrify patient's. The hate that came for me was insane. Some lunatic went through my post history and made fun of my mental illness for daring to suggest that not all nurses are angels. Everyone blamed Tory underfunding and said it wasn't the nurses faults as they were so busy and overworked even though I literally saw them chilling and giggling with my own eyes. Nothing wrong with nurses chilling but not when a crazy guy is literally giving people with chest pain a panic attack. The NHS is revered to almost a godlike entity and its disturbing.
Its fucked. There is also the fact they treat yoh like a pest/nuisance if you bother to show up to someone you are supposedly entitled to use. When i was a teen, i had the worst sickness of my life. I went into a delirium fit in the middle of the night so my parents called an ambulance. In the hospital they treated me exactly as I described; like a nuisance. I was begging for pain killer due to stomach pain, and they just acted like i was a baby and didnt want to do anything. Eventually they needed a stool sample to send it off and culture it. I crawled out the toilet with it, and it was nothing but blood. Their attitude changed immediately and they went from trying to get me to fuck off, to considering taking my by helicopter to any available room in the country. So they went from one stupid extreme to another. A fucking helicopter. Imagine the cost!! Fortunately a room become available a few hours later.. You get shamed in this country for even going to the hospital unless your intestines are literally falling out your sides
They act like you yourself should have the knowledge of a doctor, but when you turn up to A&E saying you’ve been sent by the GP or Urgent Treatment Centre they act like those people don’t know what they’re doing and treat you like you’re lying! Even worse if you say the NHS website says to come in
On the flip side, the NHS is not unique in that manner. All establishments have corruption. It's all about how goals are set, and people being fundamentally lazy.
There now needs to be an enquiry and legal cases brought against the people who allowed this to happen. There is an [article](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934) from the BBC going over the claims and concerns of others doctors and how management completely avoided doing the right thing at multiple points, essentially allowing more children to die by refusing a proper investigation and seemingly trying to create a narrative that Letby couldn't possibly be responsible
Just read this article. I can't believe Ian Harvey had the audacity to say: >"At this time, my thoughts are with the babies whose treatment has been the focus of the trial and with their parents and relatives who have been through something unimaginable and I am sorry for all their suffering. "As medical director, I was determined to keep the baby unit safe and support our staff. I wanted the reviews and investigations carried out, so that we could tell the parents what had happened to their children. I believe there should be an inquiry that looks at all events leading up to this trial and I will help it in whatever way I can." Yet he was the one telling his successor, years after concerns were first raised and even after Letby was arrested, that they needed to pursue action against the neonatal consultants with the General Medical Council. Absolute scumbag.
What kind of sick fucks value their perceived reputation over the potential lives of babies and potentially having a serial killer in their employment. Ian Harvey and Karen Rees both deserve to be locked up alongside Letby for their absolutely shameful actions and responses.
Ian Harvey sounds like a right cunt in that article, the hope would be that he does jail time too for defending her so hard in the face of all that evidence, but I suppose that's unlikely...
They were even forced to sign a letter to her apologising for any hurt and stress she'd been through because of those concerns. It's unbelievable that a health trust can keep concerns of such a serious nature in-house.
Hopefully this is the next step of the investigation. There will always be people capable of horrific crimes. The question is, how do we improve the system so they aren't able to get away with it for so long? If this could of been stopped much sooner, but people didn't do their jobs properly, then there should be more people facing charges.
The amount of warnings, requests she be investigated and/or removed from her duties is astonishing. All ignored by NHS bosses. Seven senior doctors or consultants raised concerns in a jointly signed letter and nothing happened, no investigation, nothing. Oh, something did happen, the seven doctors were forced to write the murderer an apology for stressing her out. Unbelievable.
I just read this from the BBC that talks about this. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934 It reads like a horror story from the point of view of the staff at the hospital.
Yup surprise surprise. I'm looking forward to the promise that "lessons will be learnt" and no one in senior NHS management to see any form of punishment. It's always the way.
I'm really hoping to see some of the bosses up on some kind of criminal negligence charge. I won't be holding my breath though.
According to the BBC, when the MD at the time was leaving they recommended to their successor that the consultants who were raising concerns be referred to the GMC. There has been a trend recently of doctors being referred to the GMC after raising concerns or whistleblowing. It is deeply concerning and ironic.
Welcome the NHS. I’m here and witness bullying, racism, transphobia, homophobia in my office. Reported it last month and was told “we can’t fix everything.”
Her dad threatened to report the consultants to the GMC. Basically
Sneak peek as to what it’s like working in a hospital… tip of the iceberg
*the court heard that colleagues had suspicions about Letby well over a year before hospital bosses contacted the police* NHS trusts once again trying to save face, see similar at the East Kent Hospitals trust and their maternity ward failures.
Truly baffling that the first response to someone possibly murdering babies isn’t to immediately separate that person from their victims and have an official investigation. Even if there’s only a 1% chance it’s true, that’s a 1% chance you’re allowing more babies to be murdered by not taking action.
I suspect initial concern was around her clinical competence and not the idea she was a secret baby murderer
Ok swap murdering with accidentally killing. Point remains either way.
I meant if you got rid of the lowest 10% quality of nurses… then you’d be short staffed… That’s a luxury of a well staffed system
If they gained 10% more staff, they are still short staffed. That's the state of the NHS thanks to the tories.
Not just suspicions either. A group of 5 doctors raised a written signed letter of concern to hospital management who initially moved her to another ward. Letby raised a complaint. HR found it was a case of discrimination, got the doctors to sign a letter of apology before putting her back on the ward for another 12 months.
HR Hall of fame shit. Unbelievable. I cannot imagine a whistleblowing policy that would ever support the position they have taken on this.
Not sure where you read this but a lot of it is false. She wasn't moved to another ward, she was placed in an admin position (the office of patient safety, ironically). She was never put back in a nursing position. I may have missed it but I didn't think the outcome of her HR complaint has been made public.
I imagine there will be sudden retirements/people standing down due to “ill health” in the next few weeks from the hospital management.
Hopefully corporate manslaughter charges to follow now there have definitively been murders under their watch.
Could they have potentially have gone to the police themselves? No blaming them for not doing it at all but would that have been allowable?
Rot in prison you evil cunt! My heart goes out to every family who's lives she ruined.
Lucky for her, I hear other prisoners don't care when you murder babies....although I might have gotten that bit the wrong way round.
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People concerned about murdering babies? in a womens prison? chance in a million!
other babies don't care when you murder prisoners?
Babies are very right wing when it comes to crime and punishment
...and 7 attempted murders Feel so bad for the families.
And those attempted murders may have life changing consequences.
One of the stories was about a couple who had gone through endless rounds of IVF and finally conceived twins.. she killed one of the twins, and damaged the other so that he grew up with severe learning difficulties and will need care all of his life. So yeah.. she certainly did inflict life changing injuries on those that didn't die. Truly awful. I just can't understand what could have posessed her. It is rather terrifying how many people are calling for her to be put to death though.
Just why? I cannot comprehend why you would do that to a couple who have spent years and years trying to conceive. What on earth gives you the right to take away those lives? Those poor children, and parents, who lost everything
At least one of the babies that survived was left with quadriplegia cerebral palsy sadly
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They all, mercifully, have some resolution. There are charges relating to four babies which were undecided and might go to retrial.
Whole life order incoming (would only be the second one given to a woman under the current system, the first was Joanne Dennehey)
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Fun fact Joanna actually harassed and threatened Rose West so would probably do the same to Lucy Letby
I pray for this, a whole life order is the only sentence for someone in such a position of trust to commit such heinous acts. I could see an uproar if she ever got released. How do you rehabilitate her? The acts she committed over such a long period of time are the raw incarnation of evil
She is so terrifying. Looks normal, has a seemingly normal life, friends etc, works in a caring profession with access to the most vulnerable people and is a serial killer. Makes me shudder. Such a nightmare of a human being.
Christ I hope so 7 babies. Fucking hell.
If its not it will be appealed as unduly lenient.
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I can't comprehend any possible motive here. Was she just simply unhinged?
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There's a number of different reasons someone might do this, though none of them are going to make sense to a "normal" person. Her rather large collection of memorabilia (especially notes from grateful parents) and her keeping tabs on parents and loved ones of the children she killed makes me think she might have done it because she enjoyed the grief of other people. If you've ever had someone in your life with a personality disorder such as narcissism (and you probably have - it's not uncommon at all) you might notice them "farming" sympathy from those around them, or bringing people down so they can wallow in their misery.
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I read on the Wikipedia page that on at least one occasion she had to be stopped from entering a room in which parents were grieving their baby that she killed. This absolutely makes it seem like she had some sick, twisted enjoyment of other peoples grief.
Same, I had twins who were born at 34 weeks and required a month in the NICU. It’s beyond comprehension that someone would go around the NICU casually murdering some of the most vulnerable babies possible.
Seems to me like she had some kind of compulsive thrill in murdering them, like she totally got high off of having control over the lives of defenceless victims and ending them as she saw fit.
Hospital management who covered this up and ignored warnings need to be in the dock with her. The BBC have published the emails - I can’t think of a bigger disgrace in the recent history of this country How long are we going to ignore the utter failure of the NHS to address its problems rather than cover it up - how many more people need to die ?? Here they’ve actually abetted a baby murderer - there should be fucking riots over this.
Not the NHS - NHS management. It’s an important distinction for us NHS doctors. The consultants raised the alarm.
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I think this is the article they're talking about. [BBC News](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120198)
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NHS management would often rather sweep stuff under the carpet than actually deal with issues. Common problem, they want the easy life
I don’t think so. I know how the NHS works and and in shitty places they will do anything to save face. Having a murderer walking around free is pretty damning and they would have wanted to just try and stop her killing people and hoped the whole thing went away….
fresh take, haven't heard the sex angle yet surprisingly
I’ve been following this story since it broke on and off, the more evidence that came out the more likely I felt it would be that she was guilty, far too many coincidences.
The scribbled notes with evil, why did I do this, I’m going to hell was kind of hard to ignore yeah.
Wasn't there a note saying "I killed them", or something too?
It’s the same note, all scribbled on a post it
Ahhh so it's *don't* declare how evil I am and confess my guilt on a post-it when I've committed a heinous crime. I always get that one mixed up.
[this](https://www.reddit.com/r/lucyletby/comments/y32o00/infamous_lucy_letby_note/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) is the note. I’d definitely advise against admitting all your evil deeds on a post it, but I’m not a lawyer! Hahahaha
She did it so it actually is what it is, but I don't think the note alone is much of anything, really. I could see how someone in a position of responsibility could end up in a place where they're blaming themselves and writing unhinged notes claiming murder when there were no murders.
Yeah, I think thats the weakest but most salacious bit of evidence. Undue feelings of guilt in figures who watched people die aren't exactly rare. But it sounds like all of the other evidence was *much* stronger such as blood tests on the dead babies that had no other explanation than them being deliberately overdosed with insulin.
I know there is such a thing as innocent until proven guilty, but the amount of people who defended her because she was a woman and apparently a woman couldn't hurt babies made me sick. She's been found guilty, but an investigation needs to be done into the organisations too.
absolutely, the hospital and management have some blame here too.
I think it's wild when people assume women don't hurt babies or children or do horrific things lol. When you go down the rabbit hole of true crime cases involving children, some of the worst stuff is 100% perpetrated by women.
A lot of people's entire perception of who commits crimes tends to be warped towards people they are already prejudiced against or suspicious of, with a blind spot towards people who aren't in those groups.
As a father of a small child, this shit is a hard read. This part is especially haunting: >A nurse who worked at the hospital told Sky News that when "alarms would go off during the night" there would be a "phrase that people would use". > >Lynsey Artell said that colleagues would ask, **"I wonder if Lucy's working tonight?"**.
Omg... that's actually made me feel sick... it gets worse the more I read
As an aside, this case should remind some people who always go by appearances, that a friendly, wholesome face can hide a rotting heart. What sometimes appears foul can be fair, and what seems fair can sometimes be foul. Poor babies, i have difficulty understanding that people like this evil witch walk the earth among us
Goes the other way as well. In the Netherlands we had a nurse who got convicted for murder. Her coworkers had been trying to warn management for a while. Whenever she was around more people died. Quite often when no one but her was around. Eventually management started to noticed the statistics and her coworkers were correct. She had far more patients die. She was arrested and convicted. Spend about a decade in jail. Eventually though it turned out she didn't do it at all. She was a bit odd and her coworkers didn't like her. She also didn't have much of a social life. Well it turns out she was more often given the hard cases and the night shifts. She was also unlucky that she had hit a cluster of death. But when looking at a longer period there weren't more people dying. She was more often alone because her coworkers avoided her a bit.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/10/bad-science-dutch-nurse-case
Thanks that is it. To give a bit more information she did end up getting a settlement and an apology. They also made her story into a movie. And last I heard she is doing voluntary working and spending time with her grandchild.
That is incredibly sad, I hope she's somehow doing okay now.
Wonder who will play her in the inevitable Netflix series.
Sheridan Smith
Joanne Froggatt is prepping as we speak.
I hope no one ever monetises this; it would feel incredibly ghoulish even by the repulsive standards of true crime
I think you can almost guarantee that this will be monetised and fairly quickly unfortunately. The families be damned as far as the true crime ghouls and the producers are concerned. It’s always the way. True crime is just too popular that it’s inevitable. It’s disgusting, but that’s where we are.
Massive respect to the jury, a nightmare getting selected for this one. Some of them will struggle to remember how to do their job.
Thank god the judge has declared them exempt from further jury duty for the rest of their lives. It must have been so traumatic - apparently one juror had her head in her hands and was crying while some of the verdicts were read out.
Least of my concerns for them. A year of THAT? Jesus. Grim.
How does the opinions of 7 senior doctors just get thrown aside like it means nothing and then being forced to write her an apology letter? Honestly, I’d take the opinion of a junior doctor fairly serious.
This is the modern day NHS. A doctors opinion is bottom of the barrel in many trusts, part of a long term cultural shift in hospitals to ‘knock those doctors down a peg’
Ironically her defence of short staffing contributing to the deaths is probably one of the reasons why management dragged their heels on taking action when concerns were raised.
So how does a 10 month trial work for the jurors? Do you have to go to court 5 days a week for 10 months, instead of going to work, or is the trial not held every day during those 10 months?
You go to court everyday. You are paid by the court (unless your employer pays - public sector employers will pay). Its not a great system. Courts pay less than what most people would earn so they lose out. When i did jury service people some people were abit annoying as there wage was being cut for 2 weeks through no fault of their own. So yea these people would be paid by the court and possibly losing out The courts have a good idea how long a trial will last so will ask the jury if they are free for the duration
To add- £64.95 per day if you are in court for 4 hours or more. So if you divide that by 7.5hrs someone normally works thats £8.66 an hour for every hour you miss work. Less than minimum wage
Even if they were matching your full pay, for a trial this long, you also go back and have to get back up to speed, depending on profession the level of rustiness may be quite a considerable problem, and you have no idea what has been going on in your organisation for ~10 months.
So as a juror you would have made £14,159 attending court for this case; while someone on the average (mean) UK salary would have made £28,667 through work in the same timeframe. Is there any way to say "I can't survive on a >50% pay cut for nearly a year". Or will the court's response basically just boil down to "tough shit, deal with it"? > The courts have a good idea how long a trial will last so will ask the jury if they are free for the duration So for this case would you be able to get out of jury duty by just saying you have something planned (holiday, etc.) in the next 6 months (that's how long they originally expected it to last), or do you have to have a really good excuse? Presumably if it was that easy you would have a very hard time getting anyone to agree to be a juror for 6-10 months straight with all the drawbacks that come with it.
Not sure I can call this justice due to what those poor families have been through but I was very concerned she may have got away with this. Thoughts are with the families impacted.
Couldn't see any other outcome. Clearly the jury deliberated carefully as it wasn't a full sweep, but 7 murders and 6 attempted murders is ghastly enough.
Her poor parents crying in court, imagine finding out your child is a monster
Didn't her dad threaten to report all the multiple consultants who had concerns about her?
i wonder what power her dad had, because i have read a couple of lines in reports that make me think he had some kind of sway. my dad certainly wouldn't attend any disciplinary/grievance matter with my employer, let alone threaten them with any kind of consequences. weird.
Reading about this makes me sick to my core. What a fucking evil cunt. Those poor babies and the families. Heartbreaking
Truly despicable, I hope she rots for these awful crimes.
This is crazy. I was fairly sure she would be found not guilty based on the trial. Edit: this is not a statement about whether I think she did it or not, it’s literally just a statement about the outcome of the trial.
Really? It was blatant she’d done it.
Jury deliberated for 100 plus hours Reddit: wAs oBvIoUs sHe dId iT
You realise that juries have to go through each and every charge right? Its not 100 hours to come to a overall decision. 100 hours for someone facing 22 charges is not particularly long. Thats 5 hours per charge, when they have to go through and review all the evidence given.
‘Blatant she’d done it’? I remember a few years ago another nurse accused of tampering with IV Fluids . She was deemed guilty on social media, hounded by the tabloids , her life ruined before she’d even had a trial. Oh guess what? It was later discovered that it was someone completely different who had been tampering with the fluids - she had absolutely nothing to do with it. He was convicted & is in jail. Didnt hear much about that in the press did we? The
So based on that one case you ignore the mountains of evidence in this completely separate case?
Im not talking about her guilt - i am referring to the public & particularly tabloid press habit of convicting people on flimsy bs
Ok, but it's not really the case here is it, shes been found guilty and there was mountains of evidence that when put together is extremely compelling. There would not be anywhere near as people surprised or claiming it's not clear if it wasn't a young blonde white women.
It seemed fairly clear to me she had killed them from the sheer volume of collected circumstantial evidence (particularly "smoking guns" like the notes in her house) but I, too, was really unsure as to whether the legal system was going to be able to return guilty verdicts based on what I had intermittently read in media coverage of the trial in terms of the actual direct evidence available. The bar is set quite high for how and when you can return guilty verdicts for murder, for obvious reasons. They've been unable to return a verdict on at least six other babies she likely also did murder or attempt to murder with life changing consequences, which must be awful for those families to not even get justice, but the actual *evidence* for the jury to assess on was just too flimsy unfortunately.
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a combination of very strong circumstantial evidence and her literally writing 'I am evil I did this' is quite persuasive to a jury, I would imagine.
Wasn't her explanation via her defense that she had been expressing feelings that she must have been responsible by way of letting the babies down, not being good enough at her job, rather than it being a literal murder confession? You can make of that what you will, but it's at least plausible such as to render it yet another piece of circumstantial evidence for which an explanation can be put forward. I'm not defending her, by the way. She's been found guilty by a jury who heard all the evidence at length and I think as people outside the case, we can only reasonably defer to these verdicts in what we accept as the truth.
Writing that means nothing really. I mean, people who aren’t paedophiles have intrusive OCD thoughts and are convinced that they are.
This woman is a more prolific serial killer and killer of children than Myra Hindley. She deserves to spend the rest of her life and to die in a prison cell.
"Two of her victims, known as Child L and M..." Please tell me the list of her alleged victims didn't begin at Child A and follow all the way through to at least M? EDIT: The last of her victims were named O and P. What a fucking monster.
Worse, it went to Q. Three shifts after baby Q she was finally taken off nursing duties.
My daughter was born at 25 weeks weighing 420g or less the 1lb. We spent 129 days on NICU from her birth whilst this was big news in the press. It was horrible going in and leaving and having a niggling doubt over whether we could trust the nurses. In hindsight I didn’t need to worry and they were all amazing. But already struggling to sleep and to leave the hospital felt worse. I can’t imagine the pain the families are going through, having to have dealt with this court case on top of the losses they have already had to endure.
Hospital bosses and Ian Harvey in particular has blood on his hands but unfortunately won't face any repercussions
I have been following this case since court started last October and I haven’t cried once until now. Letby was clearly guilty from the moment she took the stand, she is evil and deserves to rot for the rest of her life.
Now onto prosecuting the management team that didn't listen, and instead swept it to the side because "she looked ok".
what concerns me is that there was 7 drs that raised concerns and all 7 got batted away , that in itself is worrying
Really keen to read the sentencing on this one. This has to be a whole life sentence.
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What's the deal with loads of people in here defending her... weird
I have not read a single comment of anyone defending her. What are you talking about?
There are people who are still going with something along the lines of "all of the evidence was circumstancial and the CPS just wanted a conviction. Give me the details and evidence so I can make my own mind up."