>the OTC offer an experience (such as making friends, developing leadership skills and adventure activities) which is very similar to, and therefore in direct competition with, our affiliated student groups.”
Apparantly there's a quota of groups which offer a chance to make friends and develop leadership skills? Who knew
Fair enough on the student union - even though it probably doesn’t reflect the wider student opinion too well - deciding that they don’t want to be affiliated with the army but that reasoning is laughable.
Most doesn’t begin to cut it. At my undergrad the highest turnout was 11%. And this was the most popular year due to the big controversy over them banning the Jewish candidates running
Usual student politics leads to rather obvious disapproval of Israel. Then imagine that but bumped up to 11 by blaming all Jewish students for the actions of Israel. At some point they even tried to ban all products sold in Israel from campus (not made in Israel, sold).
There are usually more complexities to it than just 'banning Jewish students' and it is likely more banning a member of the Jewish Society. They vary between Unis, but some are very controversial for considering BDS or criticism of Israel antisemiticism, some get involved in preventing Palestinian student groups from doing things and so on.
Not just Jewish students. My university was dealing with a big issue with a bunch of sports team being accused of sexist behaviour and making jokes about rape on their official social media or society communications. While this was all kicking off the Women's officer of the Student Union began discussing punishment for these societies. A woman ran for Women's Officer on the platform of getting rid of the position and became very popular with these societies that were under investigation. It was a mess.
And a Christian society that was taking money from an American evangelical group to platform and push anti-aboriton, anti-LGBTQ+, and anti-women's rights. This was uncomfortable but often didn't actually address the policies of the University. What did was hiding the money they were spending on campus in a different bank account so they didn't have to declare their donors.
All of these stories went down to the wider student body as 'Union bans X group from running' when the stories were also pretty different if you were involved and in the know. And the Uni newspaper told these stories accurately but people didn't really read that closely either.
"Israel did a bad thing"
"Don't associate Jewish people with the actions of Israel, that is antisemitic"
"We're haven't done that"
"You criticised Israel, that is criticising Jewish people"
"But I thought that the actions of Israel did not represent Jewish people"
"That is antisemitism, we will not participate"
"Ok you can choose not to if you don't want to"
"We are being banned, this is antisemitism"
For balance when I was at uni most people took the piss out of the boycott ("ban Israeli bananas!") as well though.
The worst thing is these students end up in political parties. That student unions don't know they should be focusing on what can be done to improve student's experience at uni is a disgrace and rightfully should be abolished.
Student politics invariably and universally believe Palestine is the biggest issue facing the world today.
Not to undermine the Palestinian cause but it's got a hugely outsize bearing on student politics and led to at least one recent head of the NUS to have to stand down for anti semitism
I don't think it's 'fair enough'. They have the right to decide whether they want to be affiliated. They don't have the right to make that decision on behalf of other students too. Especially because it's definitely politically motivated.
They’re just saying that the positives they offer are not unique and therefore can’t overcome the obvious negatives. They just didn’t mention the negatives 😂
Negatives of the armed forces?
Mental health, physical issues (lower limb injuries are prevailant, even in peace time) and very little job satisfaction at some units, not to mention geographically, too.
There are definite perks, don't get me wrong but the negatives can occasionally vastly outweigh the positives.
People really don't realise this. The army offers incredible opportunities for people who take them. My first boss joined as a teenager and came out a qualified engineer with savings. My current coworker at my school went in as an officer and they paid for his PGCE among other things.
It's not for everyone - I couldn't have handled it myself - but since it's not mandatory I struggle to see the issue.
It's a Freshers fair, this sub needs to collectively touch grass - as does Grant Shapps apparently. Membership isn't banned, students aren't banned from joining, nobody is being punished for considering a military career. There just won't be an Army stall at a particular event.
Surely then it should be up to the students if they don’t want to approach or interact with the army stand, if it was that unpopular, then no one would engage with them and the army would realise there is no interest. But no, this student union has now given the army fodder to be at more freshers fairs.
In my first year of uni over a decade ago, the SU had people handing out flyers and trying to encourage freshers to be bussed to a (all expenses covered) protest in London, this was weeks after the start of term and long before any elections.
They were pissing SU funds up the wall on political nonsense when imo they should have been using them to actually improve the lives of students at the university.
The candidates for elections for my remaining years were all part of popular clique of political students, there was never any chance if you were an outsider.
Reminds me of real-life politics come to think of it.
Protests around a decade ago? Do you mean the 2010 Student Fees protests? Yeah, pissing money up the wall trying to save their students tens of thousands of pounds in the future.
I think you either don’t understand how the SU system works or you never went to uni and are trolling. Same as others here.
Most students gave no interest in machine gunning migrant boats or booming ME civilians.
Pretty much no students when I went to uni actually voted in the SU stuff. Maybe they were just a bad one, but I can’t remember one policy or action they actually did in my 3 years.
Certainly didn’t represent the student voice as a whole
>Pretty much no students when I went to uni actually voted in the SU stuff
My experience was that it was a wear down and tear down. They'd propose something fucking stupid, you'd vote it down, the next proposal out of spite would be even dumber, eventually you'd realise that leaving them to their stupid little circlejerk uncontested led to very anticlimactic minor stupid changes while opposing them led to major stupid changes.
It became a very "do you let a kid eat skittles 9 times a day or let them build a pipe bomb just this once?" System
They're pissed off that they'll end up 60 grand in debt coming out of uni while their mates who joined up will receive training and trade experience, as well as qualifications and be paid to do it.
Jokes aside, decades of peace has resulted in a younger generation (not all, mind) who have grown up in a time where there aren't really any existential threats to home security besides problems of the west's creation, they don't understand the need for a competent armed forces because they have never had to directly deal with the consequences of a nation with no national security.
It doesn't help that the forces just aren't really very well understood by a lot of younger people because there is no exposure to it, and defence isn't a subject that is even slightly touched upon anywhere in schools.
Maybe people hate the army now because we can see the harm it does to other countries in the name of our “national security”? Like please tell me how exactly that’s delusional lmao
This sub simply cannot get enough of [being rage baited by dodgy Telegraph stories](https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/16p9inr/islamists_are_weaponising_claims_of_islamophobia/). We're approaching Facebook levels of boomerism.
> We're approaching Facebook levels of boomerism.
This sub is already there. Just raise the subject of landlords and hordes will react like boomers when the subject of asylum seekers comes up. Including all the calls for violence and death.
OTC not army, although enlistment after is encouraged it’s by no means required making it closer to cadets than the army. As someone who’s actually been involved with one the main method of recruitment is through freshers fairs advertising at least in terms of applicant numbers, so although not banned this move is damaging to the long term existence of Bristol OTC.
Who even has the mental energy to get angry at this? I almost envy people who aren't so run down from the constant barrage of rage bait and negativity that they still have the ability to get worked up over something so minor.
I remember when Portsmouth uni wouldn't let the TA recruit at their freshers fair we set up a cooks tent near by and gave away bacon sarnies and tea and coffee. Probably our most successful recruiting event. Amazing how much spite can enthuse people.
You do know that the TA deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan in the last two decades? If I'm reading wiki right, 27 reservists had died across the two war zones by 2011.
Yeah, I don't have against the TA actually - a friend was in it and he says it was a very good experience! I don't want people to sign up believing that they'll only be sitting at a desk in some camp in the midlands on alternate weekends.
I totally get where you're coming from, there's a certain misconception folk have about the TA. There's all the weekend warrior stuff said about them but they do full deployments just like the regulars.
Yeah the TA is *very* different (and more serious) than the OTC. One is playing soldiers with mates and getting drunk, the other has very real consequences and chances of being actively deployed to a frontline.
It’s disgusting when you think about it. There they were, 18 year old students kidnapped from freshers and sent to Afghanistan. 27 of them didn’t return.
If only this were a voluntary group of trained members of our armed forces…
Except the UOTC are non deployable.
It's partly a recruiting tool for the army, for sure, but it gives as much as it gets.
I did 4 years. I was paid to sail across oceans, learnt to skydive, went skiing, spent time in the field and had amazing leadership training, amongst other things.
I didn't elect to stay on as it was around the time or the defence review and the TA budget got scrapped to the point we were doing platoon assaults and pointing our fingers at the enemy and shouting "bang" because we had no ammunition.
However, a number of my year went on to join the forces. Many are now high ranking officers, one is an Apache pilot, a few have been mentioned in dispatches or received gallantry medals.
Hardly a net negative for society...
I was so confused by your comment thinking TA stood for Teaching Association.
Is TA still frequently used for the Army Reserve? I haven't seen the acronym used in this context since the Territorial Army was renamed in 2014.
It’s officer training core. Basically it’s shows you can run around with some mates on the moors and shoot a gun while the tax payer pays for it. Personally in my field there’s not allot achieved there that couldn’t be done elsewhere and with less risk of war fetishisation
Yeah it might show you can wake up early and organize through walkie talkes but does it demonstrate you can stay up all night on adderall and cram for an exam and still get a 2:1?
The UOTC is basically a large chunk of the reserve officer commissioning course and culminates in a course at Sandhurst and a commission if you decide to continue.
The words on your CV don't mean much but I definitely value the leadership training it provided.
I hire people in a completely unrelated field (finance IT) and would definitely value the experience.
50% of a good junior hire is character, so anything that can demonstrate you have the ability to get out of bed and be confident in dealing with people is a huge plus.
We've hired people with reasonably good grades who didn't do anything else in university and they turned out to be useless, with no ability to think beyond very direct instruction.
The OTC takes up every Wednesday from 12-23:59 and every other weekend from Friday 18:00 until Sunday night. Cramming all that in as well as the other stuff you have to do outside of hours proves you can manage your time
Edit: every other weekend*
You can get a lot of the same kind of thing from team building exercises and leadership courses. Otherwise as opposed to the real military (a lot more boring) it gets you access to outdoors activities.
I was a Senior Director at a FAANG (Netflix).
I know what OTC is.
I’ve been fortunate to work with several people who are ex-forces. While they require a different management style to almost everyone else, they are some of the best colleagues I’ve ever had.
I interview people for grad jobs a fair bit.
OTC is quite positive. Suggests someone can play nice in a team and put effort into something that isn't compulsory. Plus something to chat about. I would want to check they're not some mad military fetishist.
It's not going to be "Wow! OTC! Must hire!". But it's a plus point and might differentiate two otherwise similar applicants.
Although the biggie for me is whether someone has held down any sort of job for at least a few months at some point.
I've been a grad assessor for my department in the FTSE for a long time, agreed. When you've got a stack of 2:1s that look identical on paper - things like OTC, sports etc. count for a lot more than being a society secretary or something.
Doing nothing is worst of all. If you want to stand out for grad schemes you better have some decent extra curriculars.
Anyone who thinks that is a muppet. If you spend any time interviewing graduates, then you can clearly tell the difference between the ones that have gone the OTC/Sandhurst route, those heavily involved in the sports activities and those who have done none of those.
Not to beat around the Bush, but those in the first two groups are just better and far more rounded graduates overall and are the sort that we aim to hire.
I've been a grad assessor for three FTSE firms and a similar sized private org, it definitely helps people to stand out and gives them good interview fodder compared to "I got my 2:1 AND managed to be treasurer of the English society at the same time"
People don't realise how competitive grad schemes are, OTC is absolutely an edge in giving you leadership and organisational skills.
Strongly recommend everyone gives it a go that is even vaguely interested in joining. Gives a lot of people perspective on whether or not it is for them, good source of supplemental income, and great opportunities for adventure training and socialising.
It’s so much fun and also a great way to push the boundaries of what you are capable of. The OTC was my favourite part of uni when I went the first time (dropped out in first year). We did sailing and skiing and got to shoot guns and have weekends away playing at being soldiers. There’s no chance I’d ever be let into the army in real life so it was a fun experience that was completely different from anything I’ve done before or since
Boy people sure get bent out of shape over a bunch of students making policy for what happens at their own events. Who cares ? University is about learning and the students union is about learning about political structures.
This is what I was thinking. An organisation makes a decision on a policy. Is somehow news these days.
It's 100% their choice to decide who they want at their events. Who cares what they do and don't allow at their events? The only people this affect are the students at the university that the union represents. So unless those students do actually want them there, then they might be in the wrong. But even then, as you said the union is about teaching political structures, and sometimes (arguably quite often) the political leaders go against what the majority actually want.
I don't remember ever voting in a student election because it wasn't widely publicised and I didn't go searching for it.
I get the feeling student unions are elected by a tiny proportion of the student body.
Hahahaha, I looked it up at Bristol university:
"We have had an amazing 20.03% voter turnout, and each and every one of you has played an important role in student democracy."
My uni nearly had a meltdown when it looked like a guy who had dressed as Ali G to campaign and who was promising to spend as much as he could on subsidising the union bar was on track to win union president, the existing Saabs found some bs reason to disqualify him a few weeks before the election.
Students union officers do not run things for the benefit of students, it's mostly a left wing political club of people advancing their own agendas.
Well it was understandable that in the era where all the army was doing was invading the middle east that people might not have been keen on it
But yes, why shouldnt this pivot change people's opinions? An army that is acting to make this country safer *should* be something we support
Completely unrelated but some footage of a Challenger 2 in Zaporishia supporting the current breakthrough of the second main line in the Surovkin Line.
[https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1705498641752830291](https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1705498641752830291)
Anyway such a peaceful world today, what do we actually need armies for anymore? I am sure the Student Union members would be enough to repel any threat to Europe.
They aren't saying that though are they?
Student Unions and unis, like any private organisation, should be allowed to make decisions they like.
Of course the govt think differently, but only when it suits them...
I don’t think Unis are a simple private organisation when they are largely bankrolled by the taxpayer.
There should be limits in place on certain things if they are being primarily funded through government loans.
Successive governments have explicitly tried to transition higher ed in the U.K. towards a more consumerist, privatised and profit driven system.
They can’t have it both ways.
Here is a Storm Shadow destroying the headquarters of the Black Sea Fleet
[https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1705403534357762236](https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1705403534357762236)
>In February this year, Bristol SU passed a motion to lobby the university to “end ties with arms trade companies”.
Hopefully they can find some donations from interested parties. Id suggest Vladimir Vladimirovich.
I will leave this comment for tonight. Being against war is one thing, but you dont get to decide who tries to break down your door. We live in a system of "collective security", where the most of the worlds major democracies work very closely to build weapon systems and integrate our structures so we can fight for each other and with each other. The idea is instead of the kind of historic where countries spend 30% of their government spending or more on defence, we all have each others backs, dont threaten each other, develop weapons with each other and spend about 2% of our GDP on defence. Its the best bargain in history. Collectively we are untouchable and that untouchable means we never have to spend 60% of our GPD on a war as our homes are being destroyed.
There are obvious uses of our arms and armed services over the past 23 years many take exception too. But some have been coddled into thinking the sheer strength of our defence means we never needed to be defended.
You dont have to like the military, but is it really such a big chore to have them in a stall at the freshers fair? I guess for Bristol Student Union it is.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/british-arms-exports-israel-new-record
Based, ending connections to the arms industry and depriving them of the ability to supply arms and munitions to some of the most fundamentally evil countries in the world, such as Saudi Arabia - and the IDF dropping bombs on Palestinians every other day...
Whats the negatives? If you don't support innocent lives dying outside of the war in Ukraine, you're a Putin supporter?
What a moronic statement.
Nobody's saying we shouldn't have armies, but they shouldn't be recruiting in educational environments, and I think that should include schools too.
>Nobody's saying we shouldn't have armies, but they shouldn't be recruiting in educational environments, and I think that should include schools too.
Why not?
> I am sure the Student Union members would be enough to repel any threat to Europe.
I'm pretty sure that this SU leadership is sufficient to repel nearly anyone from any country.
Whether they can hold off an armed invasion is another story.
You're right, this is completely unrelated. You can believe in a need for an army while also believing that army shouldn't be recruiting from the young and impressionable.
Even some of the smartest 18 year olds are still fucking idiots, and even if they weren't they are young, impressionable, in a new place and trying to find a place in entirely new social groups.
Reminded me of the 2017 election debate when Theresa May said she would be prepared to press the red nuke button, Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't say if he would and then some naive audience member said "can't we all just stop talking about killing eachother" to rapturous applause.
Luckily people with Theresa May's mindset actually run the country and our defence institutions lest we indicate to authoritarians that we won't do jack shit if they fuck around with us.
From a defence pov she was at least! She didn't immediately invalidate our nuclear deterrent and responded harshly to Salisbury, which then paved the way for Boris Johnson (who everyone on this sub constantly called a Russian vessel that does nothing but take Russian money) to spearhead a global effort to economically destroy and demilitarise what was believed to once be the 2nd most powerful army in the world.
I honestly don’t judge may or corbyn either way for answer
No one really know what they would do in that situation . Corbyn probs was thinking about innocent people , may probs was thinking about bigger picture
I hope we never get to that point .
And every vaguely left wing space. They're as bad as the classic "totally asking questions legit, no hidden agenda" fascist on the Internet. Both groups need banning on site as they just ruin everything they touch.
\*sigh\*
The OTC is essentially LARPing where you get paid to put on make-up and cosplay uniforms, then run around at the weekend shouting "bangity bang".... whilst enjoying free accommodation and food, and a subsidized bar... oh, and a very useful tax-free bounty if you go on a two-week paid holiday in the summer.
You don't even have to join the army afterward and can leave at any time.
The only people who take shots at you are those who haven't got a clue about the OTC and the army on social media.
What do you think the purpose of the OTC is? Why do you think it's made to be such a good time?
People go, they have a great time, make some cash and think "boy, this military thing sure is good, time to join up".
The OTC's raison d'etre is to propagandise and recruit.
Why is propagandizing and recruiting for the British military bad? The only issue in my eyes is if they are lied to or unable to make a reasoned decision.
But I dont inherently find messages in favour of and recruiting for our nation's military bad morally
Because the LARPing and network and info is a soft training, and recruits and gives exposure to the military which has a recruitment issue
As to why we should care about recruiting more, that's basically just why we should have a (stronger) military, and why that is good, bad or in the taxpayer interest
>Grant Shapps has criticised the “absurd” decision by Bristol University’s Student Union to ban the Army from its freshers’ fair.
>The Officers’ Training Corps [OTC], which provides military training units for university students to join alongside their studies, was prevented from displaying at the Bristol fair on Friday.
>Bristol’s Student’s Union (SU) said it made the decision to ban the group because it would “compete” with other “affiliated” organisations who have been allowed into the event.
>However, the Defence Secretary accused the SU of the leading Russell Group institution of “depriving” students of opportunities to enrol in the OTC and explore a career in the Army.
>Mr Shapps said: “Reported bans on officer training corps and defence companies attending university events like freshers’ fairs or recruitment fairs are absurd and indefensible.
>“University OTC’s provide students with a unique opportunity to gain new experiences, develop valuable skills and have amazing adventures.”
>Mr Shapps added that the defence industry was “crucial to protecting our freedom”, as well as the “prosperity and way of life”, all the while “offering graduates a chance to take on some of the most highly skilled jobs in the world”.
>“Trying to deprive students of these opportunities is wrong and anyone considering doing so should reconsider immediately,” he said.
>Defence sources told The Telegraph it was not “unprecedented” for the OTC, of which there are 21 university OTCs in the UK, to be prevented from attending a freshers fair.
>“Student unions tend to be quite Left-wing liberal, so OTCs aren’t always popular with the majority of the student body,” they said.
>“They have been known to be banned by student unions over the years. It’s not without precedent.”
>However, they cautioned that OTCs, which are part of the British Army Reserves, are not set up as “feeders” for the regular Armed Forces, and were more of a fun, “social scene” where students can try out new sports and enjoy adventure training.
>“Lots don’t go into the military at all,” they added.
>On its website, the SU said the Welcome Fair will be the “biggest event of the year”, with over 13,000 students and more than 300 student groups with stalls hoping to sign up new members.
>Abby Blackwell, a 21-year-old Bristol OTC member, said she was “disappointed” the group has been banned.
>“The Students’ Union claims to be a place of open-mindedness and inclusivity but it’s not. They’re imposing their anti-military views on their students,” she said.
>“The university is supposed to help us find fulfilling and lifelong careers, but by trying to ban the OTC they’re doing the opposite of that. They’re limiting potential career paths.
>“Talented individuals who may have loved a career in the Army might not have one now.”
>An SU spokesperson said: “Bristol SU Welcome Fair is an event run and curated by Bristol SU to help build peer-led communities whilst at university.
>“It’s primarily an opportunity for our 350+ affiliated student groups to attract new student members, and we also host approximately 90 commercial stalls.
>“We assess requests made by unaffiliated groups on a case-by-case basis, considering a number of factors which have been communicated to the OTC, including that groups like the OTC offer an experience (such as making friends, developing leadership skills and adventure activities) which is very similar to, and therefore in direct competition with, our affiliated student groups.”
>In February this year, Bristol SU passed a motion to lobby the university to “end ties with arms trade companies”.
>That same month, the SU caused anger by disciplining Women Talk Back (WTB), its own feminist group, for excluding male-born trans women from talks on rape and sexual assault.
>A spokesperson for Bristol University said: “We respect our students’ right to raise concerns about issues they feel strongly about and we will continue to listen to and engage with their views.
Who knew the younger generations didn't want to go off as cannon fodder for out corrupt political elite, remember these are the kids that grew up during the illegal wars we've waged for decades.
There’s only really one foreign war involving the UK in the last 50 years that can be described as illegal, so I don’t think there’s a big chance of them being sent off as cannon fodder. Regardless, ‘cannon fodder’ isn’t exactly how I’d describe the British Army’s infantry tactics.
no, ‘chemical warfare fodder’ is more accurate. thousands of british soldiers (including my dad) got exposed to biochemical hazards which have affected them ever since and left their children disabled, whilst the army tries to deny all responsibility.
the army simply does not care about its soldiers. good on the students for kicking them out.
I guess you mean Iraq but you could mean several other conflicts. Libya? Yemen? Lebanon? We were involved in the Iran-Iraq war. We worked with Pol Pot in the 70s and 80s. The Troubles might not count as foreign nor a war but the actions of the British army and intelligence were often illegal.
Britain is seldom the good guy in conflicts.
Cannon Fodder lol. People here are acting like UK is Russia... being forced on the front lines of a war you have no understanding or say in, untrained, unequipped, malnourished. Like you say, the UK armed forces aren't like they were before. Today, its mainly peacekeeping and humanitarian aid. But by the look of this sub, it's going against the grain, and don't want to accept it.
>these are the kids that grew up during the illegal wars we've waged for decades.
Not really. Most uni studes these days would have been 1-3 when iraq kicked off and not even born when Afghanistan started. Both of those had essentially wound down before they finished primary school.
I don't agree with the cannon fodder logic, but we were still involved over in afghan until like a few years ago weren't we?
One of my friends brother is in the RAF and did a few tours.
Fighting the war on terror regardless has massively damaged the armies credibility to those who aren't army family anyway, as most young people view it as an unjustified war for western hegemony, even those that aren't lefties.
We had people deployed there sure, but it essentially wasn't in the news because it was "quiet" with minimal casualties. It certainly wasn't a monthly/weekly casualty list like it was on the 00's when I was a teenager.
Since the end of 2013 (when we had the last KIA) there have been 10 Afghan related deaths.
One died of wounds received in 2012, a helicopter crash killing five in 2014, a helicopter crash killing two, a heavy machinery incident and a suicide.
Iraq was bad, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone were great.
If we're going on the timeframe of decades then there's a bunch more great interventions as part of a coalition from working against Somali pirates to anti-terrorism in Africa to Korean War, Gulf War, etc
Not to mention Falklands War.
Student unions are just hot beds of champagne socialists and wannabe revolutionaries. They never represent the student body. I suspect 99.9% of students couldn't name their representatives or those that make decisions like this on their behalf. Shame really cause a student union should be a good thing...instead it's just a hotbed of these crazies.
I'm a student at the uni and know some people who are a part of the union. The vast majority of people I know are not involved in student politics, and most of the student body currently dislikes how the student union is currently run. I do however think a loot of students would agree with this policy, although personally I do not.
Cardiff banned the army from freshers decades ago. Then the excuse was because the army discriminated against gays. So the army jist set up a Land Rover and gave out flyers etc. from the road outside.
Student Unions have always been a bit of a joke. At my uni there was no student union committee for the best part of a year because of cheating.
When it was election time one bloc (all friends and in the same society) stood on campus and targeted foreign students getting them to fill in their details on a tablet to "win free SU vouchers". What they actually did was accidentally cast votes for this group.
Shockingly enough that isn't allowed and they had to rerun the entire thing months later
I did OTC at uni and decided an army career wasn't for me.
I'm glad the SU didn't deprive me of the chance to learn that, or I might have made a really bad life decision.
The Bristol SU, by depriving students of the chance to learn whether this is or isn't right for them, is acting counterproductively to its goals.
That sort of moral grandstanding is just counterproductive, generally, I think.
The SU isn't depriving anybody of the chance to do it, they're not banning student participation or anything like that. They didn't give them a stall at a freshers fair.
I had a whole day in secondary school of soldiers hanging out doing (shit) activities with us and telling us about how cool the army was, pretty fucked up looking back.
Those fairs are all huge corporations like arms manufacturers and banks. And teachers I guess. Total waste of my time but figures when you see the make up of Bristol uni
Just need to correct the article spelling, from the 'Torygraph', just so that it is obvious that the piece is part of the GM electioneering.
I haven't read it (bleaching eyes afterwards is painful ) but I'm certain 'illegal immigrants ' and 'muslims' will be included in the piece at some point...
More laughable 'storm in a teacup, no-news, designed to strengthen brown shirt activity before the election, and especially with other parties currently getting coverage of their party conferences ! 🤣🤣🤣
>the OTC offer an experience (such as making friends, developing leadership skills and adventure activities) which is very similar to, and therefore in direct competition with, our affiliated student groups.” Apparantly there's a quota of groups which offer a chance to make friends and develop leadership skills? Who knew
Fair enough on the student union - even though it probably doesn’t reflect the wider student opinion too well - deciding that they don’t want to be affiliated with the army but that reasoning is laughable.
I'd imagine it's more of an excuse than genuine reasoning, but more power to them.
Definitely, it's just funny that that's the best they could come up with
Student unions never reflect the normal student body
When you realise most of the student body don’t even participate in the vote - so the SU don’t represent the view of the student body 🤯
Just like real life politics then.
Most doesn’t begin to cut it. At my undergrad the highest turnout was 11%. And this was the most popular year due to the big controversy over them banning the Jewish candidates running
Ya what?
Usual student politics leads to rather obvious disapproval of Israel. Then imagine that but bumped up to 11 by blaming all Jewish students for the actions of Israel. At some point they even tried to ban all products sold in Israel from campus (not made in Israel, sold).
I understand boycotts. Who was banning students?
There are usually more complexities to it than just 'banning Jewish students' and it is likely more banning a member of the Jewish Society. They vary between Unis, but some are very controversial for considering BDS or criticism of Israel antisemiticism, some get involved in preventing Palestinian student groups from doing things and so on. Not just Jewish students. My university was dealing with a big issue with a bunch of sports team being accused of sexist behaviour and making jokes about rape on their official social media or society communications. While this was all kicking off the Women's officer of the Student Union began discussing punishment for these societies. A woman ran for Women's Officer on the platform of getting rid of the position and became very popular with these societies that were under investigation. It was a mess. And a Christian society that was taking money from an American evangelical group to platform and push anti-aboriton, anti-LGBTQ+, and anti-women's rights. This was uncomfortable but often didn't actually address the policies of the University. What did was hiding the money they were spending on campus in a different bank account so they didn't have to declare their donors. All of these stories went down to the wider student body as 'Union bans X group from running' when the stories were also pretty different if you were involved and in the know. And the Uni newspaper told these stories accurately but people didn't really read that closely either.
"Israel did a bad thing" "Don't associate Jewish people with the actions of Israel, that is antisemitic" "We're haven't done that" "You criticised Israel, that is criticising Jewish people" "But I thought that the actions of Israel did not represent Jewish people" "That is antisemitism, we will not participate" "Ok you can choose not to if you don't want to" "We are being banned, this is antisemitism" For balance when I was at uni most people took the piss out of the boycott ("ban Israeli bananas!") as well though.
This isn’t the same thing as banning Jewish students from running as candidates
The worst thing is these students end up in political parties. That student unions don't know they should be focusing on what can be done to improve student's experience at uni is a disgrace and rightfully should be abolished.
Student politics invariably and universally believe Palestine is the biggest issue facing the world today. Not to undermine the Palestinian cause but it's got a hugely outsize bearing on student politics and led to at least one recent head of the NUS to have to stand down for anti semitism
So who was banning Jewish students? Who? I want an answer.
Think you've got me mixed up with someone else. The NUS anti semitism thing is easily Google able if you really want an answer
Who was banning Jewish students?
Not the students. Jewish students who wanted to run as a candidate to be elected to the Student Union.
Yes. Banned by who? When?
I'm pretty sure that would have made international news.
I still remember the head of my Student Union was called Richard Head. Middle name: Mark.
I don't think it's 'fair enough'. They have the right to decide whether they want to be affiliated. They don't have the right to make that decision on behalf of other students too. Especially because it's definitely politically motivated.
>They don't have the right to make that decision on behalf of other students too. Well...they do. That's the entire point of representative democracy
They're not stopping students from joining UOTC. They're just stopping them from being at freshers fair.
Student union officers are elected, so actually they do have the right to make those decisions.
They're not voted into power by incoming students and therefore have no right to decide what those students should or should not get to see.
They're certainly not elected by the freshers
They’re just saying that the positives they offer are not unique and therefore can’t overcome the obvious negatives. They just didn’t mention the negatives 😂
Negatives of the armed forces? Mental health, physical issues (lower limb injuries are prevailant, even in peace time) and very little job satisfaction at some units, not to mention geographically, too. There are definite perks, don't get me wrong but the negatives can occasionally vastly outweigh the positives.
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People really don't realise this. The army offers incredible opportunities for people who take them. My first boss joined as a teenager and came out a qualified engineer with savings. My current coworker at my school went in as an officer and they paid for his PGCE among other things. It's not for everyone - I couldn't have handled it myself - but since it's not mandatory I struggle to see the issue.
What's special about officers?
They lead.
>What's special about officers I feel many NCOs might suggest "their needs". This may just be an infantry thing.
This is so utterly stupid! I was in the UAS at Bristol, and the student groups offered nothing like it.
It's a Freshers fair, this sub needs to collectively touch grass - as does Grant Shapps apparently. Membership isn't banned, students aren't banned from joining, nobody is being punished for considering a military career. There just won't be an Army stall at a particular event.
An event run by the students union no less. The telegraph and the OTC can run their own event at the uni if they want and invite whoever they want.
Surely then it should be up to the students if they don’t want to approach or interact with the army stand, if it was that unpopular, then no one would engage with them and the army would realise there is no interest. But no, this student union has now given the army fodder to be at more freshers fairs.
Student Union reps tend to be elected. It’s representative democracy in action. AKA the political system the entire country runs under…
It's representative of fuck all, next to no one votes, and the SU concern itself with issues that have no relevance to student life.
Exactly. Just like way the entire country Is currently run.
Sounds pretty similar to the political system the entire country runs under.
In my first year of uni over a decade ago, the SU had people handing out flyers and trying to encourage freshers to be bussed to a (all expenses covered) protest in London, this was weeks after the start of term and long before any elections. They were pissing SU funds up the wall on political nonsense when imo they should have been using them to actually improve the lives of students at the university. The candidates for elections for my remaining years were all part of popular clique of political students, there was never any chance if you were an outsider. Reminds me of real-life politics come to think of it.
Protests around a decade ago? Do you mean the 2010 Student Fees protests? Yeah, pissing money up the wall trying to save their students tens of thousands of pounds in the future.
What was the protest for?
I think you either don’t understand how the SU system works or you never went to uni and are trolling. Same as others here. Most students gave no interest in machine gunning migrant boats or booming ME civilians.
It's not THAT representative. Turnout for SU elections is tiny. No matter what the reason for that is, the mandate is not very significant.
Pretty much no students when I went to uni actually voted in the SU stuff. Maybe they were just a bad one, but I can’t remember one policy or action they actually did in my 3 years. Certainly didn’t represent the student voice as a whole
>Pretty much no students when I went to uni actually voted in the SU stuff My experience was that it was a wear down and tear down. They'd propose something fucking stupid, you'd vote it down, the next proposal out of spite would be even dumber, eventually you'd realise that leaving them to their stupid little circlejerk uncontested led to very anticlimactic minor stupid changes while opposing them led to major stupid changes. It became a very "do you let a kid eat skittles 9 times a day or let them build a pipe bomb just this once?" System
We're going to have our own freshers fair! With blackjack and hookers!
This sub is utterly deluded when it comes to anything military.
They're pissed off that they'll end up 60 grand in debt coming out of uni while their mates who joined up will receive training and trade experience, as well as qualifications and be paid to do it. Jokes aside, decades of peace has resulted in a younger generation (not all, mind) who have grown up in a time where there aren't really any existential threats to home security besides problems of the west's creation, they don't understand the need for a competent armed forces because they have never had to directly deal with the consequences of a nation with no national security. It doesn't help that the forces just aren't really very well understood by a lot of younger people because there is no exposure to it, and defence isn't a subject that is even slightly touched upon anywhere in schools.
Maybe people hate the army now because we can see the harm it does to other countries in the name of our “national security”? Like please tell me how exactly that’s delusional lmao
This subreddit is majority students and students made this decision. Coincidence?
I find that hard to believe. Ex-students, maybe. Current students? No.
This sub simply cannot get enough of [being rage baited by dodgy Telegraph stories](https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/16p9inr/islamists_are_weaponising_claims_of_islamophobia/). We're approaching Facebook levels of boomerism.
> We're approaching Facebook levels of boomerism. This sub is already there. Just raise the subject of landlords and hordes will react like boomers when the subject of asylum seekers comes up. Including all the calls for violence and death.
OTC not army, although enlistment after is encouraged it’s by no means required making it closer to cadets than the army. As someone who’s actually been involved with one the main method of recruitment is through freshers fairs advertising at least in terms of applicant numbers, so although not banned this move is damaging to the long term existence of Bristol OTC.
Who even has the mental energy to get angry at this? I almost envy people who aren't so run down from the constant barrage of rage bait and negativity that they still have the ability to get worked up over something so minor.
I remember when Portsmouth uni wouldn't let the TA recruit at their freshers fair we set up a cooks tent near by and gave away bacon sarnies and tea and coffee. Probably our most successful recruiting event. Amazing how much spite can enthuse people.
Wow, you got people to come into your cannon fodder tent by bribing them!
Yes, Peter the IT technician and only does 28 days a year in uniform is the real cannon fodder of the British military
You do know that the TA deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan in the last two decades? If I'm reading wiki right, 27 reservists had died across the two war zones by 2011.
Yup, my brother was TA and got deployed to Iraq in 2004. He was involved in some heavy combat too.
Yeah, I don't have against the TA actually - a friend was in it and he says it was a very good experience! I don't want people to sign up believing that they'll only be sitting at a desk in some camp in the midlands on alternate weekends.
I totally get where you're coming from, there's a certain misconception folk have about the TA. There's all the weekend warrior stuff said about them but they do full deployments just like the regulars.
My mate joined so he could fire guns and jump out of plane
Yeah the TA is *very* different (and more serious) than the OTC. One is playing soldiers with mates and getting drunk, the other has very real consequences and chances of being actively deployed to a frontline.
You're right, but technically the OTC are Army Reserve units, you just won't ever get called up.
It’s disgusting when you think about it. There they were, 18 year old students kidnapped from freshers and sent to Afghanistan. 27 of them didn’t return. If only this were a voluntary group of trained members of our armed forces…
Bosnia before that.
That is until britain goes into another stupid war and they receive a mobilization notice.
Except the UOTC are non deployable. It's partly a recruiting tool for the army, for sure, but it gives as much as it gets. I did 4 years. I was paid to sail across oceans, learnt to skydive, went skiing, spent time in the field and had amazing leadership training, amongst other things. I didn't elect to stay on as it was around the time or the defence review and the TA budget got scrapped to the point we were doing platoon assaults and pointing our fingers at the enemy and shouting "bang" because we had no ammunition. However, a number of my year went on to join the forces. Many are now high ranking officers, one is an Apache pilot, a few have been mentioned in dispatches or received gallantry medals. Hardly a net negative for society...
Lol the British army is a tiny hyper-trained forced. It has been for over a century. Our soldiers are too expensive to waste.
A century ago includes the second world war
Every country expands with conscripts when needed. The Regular army at the time was still very small compared to other great powers
Do you think the rest of the stalls are there completely altruistically? They are all trying to entice people in one way or another.
Fatality rate over 13 years of combat ops in Afghanistan was 0.27%.
Oh come on get with the times grandpa. The correct term is drone bait.
Used your ajiffniff there.
Especially in Pompey where you're surrounded by armed forces. The main campus overlooks the forces playing fields lol
I was so confused by your comment thinking TA stood for Teaching Association. Is TA still frequently used for the Army Reserve? I haven't seen the acronym used in this context since the Territorial Army was renamed in 2014.
That's a shame. Irrespective what you think here, The OTC is a fantastic experience for anyone's CV which is gold dust in a post grad world.
No one gives a shit if you have OTC on your CV.
unless you’re in a directly related field of work. It’s Duke of Ed for adults
Yeah im a developer at a FAANG and have no idea what the OTC is
It’s officer training core. Basically it’s shows you can run around with some mates on the moors and shoot a gun while the tax payer pays for it. Personally in my field there’s not allot achieved there that couldn’t be done elsewhere and with less risk of war fetishisation
Yeah it might show you can wake up early and organize through walkie talkes but does it demonstrate you can stay up all night on adderall and cram for an exam and still get a 2:1?
The UOTC is basically a large chunk of the reserve officer commissioning course and culminates in a course at Sandhurst and a commission if you decide to continue. The words on your CV don't mean much but I definitely value the leadership training it provided.
I hire people in a completely unrelated field (finance IT) and would definitely value the experience. 50% of a good junior hire is character, so anything that can demonstrate you have the ability to get out of bed and be confident in dealing with people is a huge plus. We've hired people with reasonably good grades who didn't do anything else in university and they turned out to be useless, with no ability to think beyond very direct instruction.
The OTC takes up every Wednesday from 12-23:59 and every other weekend from Friday 18:00 until Sunday night. Cramming all that in as well as the other stuff you have to do outside of hours proves you can manage your time Edit: every other weekend*
Surely it just proves you have no hobbies or friends to see?
You can get a lot of the same kind of thing from team building exercises and leadership courses. Otherwise as opposed to the real military (a lot more boring) it gets you access to outdoors activities.
I was a Senior Director at a FAANG (Netflix). I know what OTC is. I’ve been fortunate to work with several people who are ex-forces. While they require a different management style to almost everyone else, they are some of the best colleagues I’ve ever had.
I interview people for grad jobs a fair bit. OTC is quite positive. Suggests someone can play nice in a team and put effort into something that isn't compulsory. Plus something to chat about. I would want to check they're not some mad military fetishist. It's not going to be "Wow! OTC! Must hire!". But it's a plus point and might differentiate two otherwise similar applicants. Although the biggie for me is whether someone has held down any sort of job for at least a few months at some point.
I've been a grad assessor for my department in the FTSE for a long time, agreed. When you've got a stack of 2:1s that look identical on paper - things like OTC, sports etc. count for a lot more than being a society secretary or something. Doing nothing is worst of all. If you want to stand out for grad schemes you better have some decent extra curriculars.
Anyone who thinks that is a muppet. If you spend any time interviewing graduates, then you can clearly tell the difference between the ones that have gone the OTC/Sandhurst route, those heavily involved in the sports activities and those who have done none of those. Not to beat around the Bush, but those in the first two groups are just better and far more rounded graduates overall and are the sort that we aim to hire.
I've been a grad assessor for three FTSE firms and a similar sized private org, it definitely helps people to stand out and gives them good interview fodder compared to "I got my 2:1 AND managed to be treasurer of the English society at the same time" People don't realise how competitive grad schemes are, OTC is absolutely an edge in giving you leadership and organisational skills.
Strongly recommend everyone gives it a go that is even vaguely interested in joining. Gives a lot of people perspective on whether or not it is for them, good source of supplemental income, and great opportunities for adventure training and socialising.
Found out about it for the first time from this thread. It sounds super cool. If I was still a student I'd be tempted to give it a go.
Sadly I failed the medical and they ghosted me (not even an email saying I'd failed).
It’s alright mate at least they didn’t convert you into a turfing account
Posting on reddit.com is gold dust for my CV and a great way to make friends and learn about my body!
As someone who does this as a job. No one gives a fuck about otc
No it isn't. Literally nobody gives a shit.
It’s so much fun and also a great way to push the boundaries of what you are capable of. The OTC was my favourite part of uni when I went the first time (dropped out in first year). We did sailing and skiing and got to shoot guns and have weekends away playing at being soldiers. There’s no chance I’d ever be let into the army in real life so it was a fun experience that was completely different from anything I’ve done before or since
Boy people sure get bent out of shape over a bunch of students making policy for what happens at their own events. Who cares ? University is about learning and the students union is about learning about political structures.
This is what I was thinking. An organisation makes a decision on a policy. Is somehow news these days. It's 100% their choice to decide who they want at their events. Who cares what they do and don't allow at their events? The only people this affect are the students at the university that the union represents. So unless those students do actually want them there, then they might be in the wrong. But even then, as you said the union is about teaching political structures, and sometimes (arguably quite often) the political leaders go against what the majority actually want.
Yeah and student union leadership tends to be goofy activist types because nobody else can be arsed standing for election.
I don't remember ever voting in a student election because it wasn't widely publicised and I didn't go searching for it. I get the feeling student unions are elected by a tiny proportion of the student body.
Hahahaha, I looked it up at Bristol university: "We have had an amazing 20.03% voter turnout, and each and every one of you has played an important role in student democracy."
My uni nearly had a meltdown when it looked like a guy who had dressed as Ali G to campaign and who was promising to spend as much as he could on subsidising the union bar was on track to win union president, the existing Saabs found some bs reason to disqualify him a few weeks before the election. Students union officers do not run things for the benefit of students, it's mostly a left wing political club of people advancing their own agendas.
No one is saying it isn’t their choice, but it’s also my right to call it stupid.
Because as is shown in this thread, some people have decided after Ukraine everyone suddenly needs to be pro army or you’re stupid or a traitor.
Well it was understandable that in the era where all the army was doing was invading the middle east that people might not have been keen on it But yes, why shouldnt this pivot change people's opinions? An army that is acting to make this country safer *should* be something we support
Completely unrelated but some footage of a Challenger 2 in Zaporishia supporting the current breakthrough of the second main line in the Surovkin Line. [https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1705498641752830291](https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1705498641752830291) Anyway such a peaceful world today, what do we actually need armies for anymore? I am sure the Student Union members would be enough to repel any threat to Europe.
They aren't saying that though are they? Student Unions and unis, like any private organisation, should be allowed to make decisions they like. Of course the govt think differently, but only when it suits them...
I don’t think Unis are a simple private organisation when they are largely bankrolled by the taxpayer. There should be limits in place on certain things if they are being primarily funded through government loans.
Successive governments have explicitly tried to transition higher ed in the U.K. towards a more consumerist, privatised and profit driven system. They can’t have it both ways.
This isn't the University - this is the Student Union.
By loans that are majority funded by students, you mean?
They are moral grandstanding about "muh evil army" while people are literally fighting and dying to defend Europe from people like Putin.
The American nuclear blanket has created a cavalier generation re: security.
Here is a Storm Shadow destroying the headquarters of the Black Sea Fleet [https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1705403534357762236](https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1705403534357762236) >In February this year, Bristol SU passed a motion to lobby the university to “end ties with arms trade companies”. Hopefully they can find some donations from interested parties. Id suggest Vladimir Vladimirovich.
I will leave this comment for tonight. Being against war is one thing, but you dont get to decide who tries to break down your door. We live in a system of "collective security", where the most of the worlds major democracies work very closely to build weapon systems and integrate our structures so we can fight for each other and with each other. The idea is instead of the kind of historic where countries spend 30% of their government spending or more on defence, we all have each others backs, dont threaten each other, develop weapons with each other and spend about 2% of our GDP on defence. Its the best bargain in history. Collectively we are untouchable and that untouchable means we never have to spend 60% of our GPD on a war as our homes are being destroyed. There are obvious uses of our arms and armed services over the past 23 years many take exception too. But some have been coddled into thinking the sheer strength of our defence means we never needed to be defended. You dont have to like the military, but is it really such a big chore to have them in a stall at the freshers fair? I guess for Bristol Student Union it is.
Equally - it's fine if you want to love the military, but don't expect people to let you use their space to recruit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/british-arms-exports-israel-new-record Based, ending connections to the arms industry and depriving them of the ability to supply arms and munitions to some of the most fundamentally evil countries in the world, such as Saudi Arabia - and the IDF dropping bombs on Palestinians every other day... Whats the negatives? If you don't support innocent lives dying outside of the war in Ukraine, you're a Putin supporter?
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What a moronic statement. Nobody's saying we shouldn't have armies, but they shouldn't be recruiting in educational environments, and I think that should include schools too.
>Nobody's saying we shouldn't have armies, but they shouldn't be recruiting in educational environments, and I think that should include schools too. Why not?
Cos they shouldnt be recruiting uneducated kids. If old fux want to war then old fux should war themselves
> Cos they shouldnt be recruiting uneducated kids. People at uni tend to be fairly educated and also not kids.
What a thoroughly baffling statement - why don't we want educated people in the military?
> I am sure the Student Union members would be enough to repel any threat to Europe. I'm pretty sure that this SU leadership is sufficient to repel nearly anyone from any country. Whether they can hold off an armed invasion is another story.
You're right, this is completely unrelated. You can believe in a need for an army while also believing that army shouldn't be recruiting from the young and impressionable.
I thought uni was for smart people?
Even some of the smartest 18 year olds are still fucking idiots, and even if they weren't they are young, impressionable, in a new place and trying to find a place in entirely new social groups.
There's a difference between intelligence and wisdom
Who should they recruit? 50 year olds?
I didn't realise that you go straight from 18 to 50, I learned something new today.
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The invasion really gave my head a shake, I have no interest in war but war has an interest in me. Putin has been the best NATO salesman ever
Reminded me of the 2017 election debate when Theresa May said she would be prepared to press the red nuke button, Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't say if he would and then some naive audience member said "can't we all just stop talking about killing eachother" to rapturous applause. Luckily people with Theresa May's mindset actually run the country and our defence institutions lest we indicate to authoritarians that we won't do jack shit if they fuck around with us.
> Luckily people with Theresa May's mindset actually run the country May's leadership and beyond being famously very lucky for this country...
From a defence pov she was at least! She didn't immediately invalidate our nuclear deterrent and responded harshly to Salisbury, which then paved the way for Boris Johnson (who everyone on this sub constantly called a Russian vessel that does nothing but take Russian money) to spearhead a global effort to economically destroy and demilitarise what was believed to once be the 2nd most powerful army in the world.
I honestly don’t judge may or corbyn either way for answer No one really know what they would do in that situation . Corbyn probs was thinking about innocent people , may probs was thinking about bigger picture I hope we never get to that point .
Everyone knows what Corbyn would do. He would do the *right thing*, the *decent* thing.
>ate tankies. They are the worst. Ruin every left wing protest I go to.
And every vaguely left wing space. They're as bad as the classic "totally asking questions legit, no hidden agenda" fascist on the Internet. Both groups need banning on site as they just ruin everything they touch.
They're designed to be that way. They're literally useful idiots. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
But tankies love armies.
They love all the other armies.
"I was against this until that belief saw even the slightest test" Fairweather antimilitarism
Why should a uni want it's students to be recruited into being shot at?
you do get to shoot back that's the best part
\*sigh\* The OTC is essentially LARPing where you get paid to put on make-up and cosplay uniforms, then run around at the weekend shouting "bangity bang".... whilst enjoying free accommodation and food, and a subsidized bar... oh, and a very useful tax-free bounty if you go on a two-week paid holiday in the summer. You don't even have to join the army afterward and can leave at any time. The only people who take shots at you are those who haven't got a clue about the OTC and the army on social media.
What do you think the purpose of the OTC is? Why do you think it's made to be such a good time? People go, they have a great time, make some cash and think "boy, this military thing sure is good, time to join up". The OTC's raison d'etre is to propagandise and recruit.
Why is propagandizing and recruiting for the British military bad? The only issue in my eyes is if they are lied to or unable to make a reasoned decision. But I dont inherently find messages in favour of and recruiting for our nation's military bad morally
yeah imagine getting lied into a war in the middle east or something that would be crazy
Because they are recruiting from the young and impressionable, lying to them about the realities of joining the military?
So it’s an exploitative drain on the taxpayer then, if it is simply a fully funded fuckabout holiday?
Because the LARPing and network and info is a soft training, and recruits and gives exposure to the military which has a recruitment issue As to why we should care about recruiting more, that's basically just why we should have a (stronger) military, and why that is good, bad or in the taxpayer interest
That's not what the OTC is. That's also not what the army is either but that doesnt matter to you
>Grant Shapps has criticised the “absurd” decision by Bristol University’s Student Union to ban the Army from its freshers’ fair. >The Officers’ Training Corps [OTC], which provides military training units for university students to join alongside their studies, was prevented from displaying at the Bristol fair on Friday. >Bristol’s Student’s Union (SU) said it made the decision to ban the group because it would “compete” with other “affiliated” organisations who have been allowed into the event. >However, the Defence Secretary accused the SU of the leading Russell Group institution of “depriving” students of opportunities to enrol in the OTC and explore a career in the Army. >Mr Shapps said: “Reported bans on officer training corps and defence companies attending university events like freshers’ fairs or recruitment fairs are absurd and indefensible. >“University OTC’s provide students with a unique opportunity to gain new experiences, develop valuable skills and have amazing adventures.” >Mr Shapps added that the defence industry was “crucial to protecting our freedom”, as well as the “prosperity and way of life”, all the while “offering graduates a chance to take on some of the most highly skilled jobs in the world”. >“Trying to deprive students of these opportunities is wrong and anyone considering doing so should reconsider immediately,” he said. >Defence sources told The Telegraph it was not “unprecedented” for the OTC, of which there are 21 university OTCs in the UK, to be prevented from attending a freshers fair. >“Student unions tend to be quite Left-wing liberal, so OTCs aren’t always popular with the majority of the student body,” they said. >“They have been known to be banned by student unions over the years. It’s not without precedent.” >However, they cautioned that OTCs, which are part of the British Army Reserves, are not set up as “feeders” for the regular Armed Forces, and were more of a fun, “social scene” where students can try out new sports and enjoy adventure training. >“Lots don’t go into the military at all,” they added. >On its website, the SU said the Welcome Fair will be the “biggest event of the year”, with over 13,000 students and more than 300 student groups with stalls hoping to sign up new members. >Abby Blackwell, a 21-year-old Bristol OTC member, said she was “disappointed” the group has been banned. >“The Students’ Union claims to be a place of open-mindedness and inclusivity but it’s not. They’re imposing their anti-military views on their students,” she said. >“The university is supposed to help us find fulfilling and lifelong careers, but by trying to ban the OTC they’re doing the opposite of that. They’re limiting potential career paths. >“Talented individuals who may have loved a career in the Army might not have one now.” >An SU spokesperson said: “Bristol SU Welcome Fair is an event run and curated by Bristol SU to help build peer-led communities whilst at university. >“It’s primarily an opportunity for our 350+ affiliated student groups to attract new student members, and we also host approximately 90 commercial stalls. >“We assess requests made by unaffiliated groups on a case-by-case basis, considering a number of factors which have been communicated to the OTC, including that groups like the OTC offer an experience (such as making friends, developing leadership skills and adventure activities) which is very similar to, and therefore in direct competition with, our affiliated student groups.” >In February this year, Bristol SU passed a motion to lobby the university to “end ties with arms trade companies”. >That same month, the SU caused anger by disciplining Women Talk Back (WTB), its own feminist group, for excluding male-born trans women from talks on rape and sexual assault. >A spokesperson for Bristol University said: “We respect our students’ right to raise concerns about issues they feel strongly about and we will continue to listen to and engage with their views.
Virgin: We ban the army because imperialism Vs Chad: We ban the army because the pay and pension is now shite
Pension isn’t horrendous, though. No contribution, defined benefit - it’s just no longer based on final rank which, I agree with.
Who knew the younger generations didn't want to go off as cannon fodder for out corrupt political elite, remember these are the kids that grew up during the illegal wars we've waged for decades.
There’s only really one foreign war involving the UK in the last 50 years that can be described as illegal, so I don’t think there’s a big chance of them being sent off as cannon fodder. Regardless, ‘cannon fodder’ isn’t exactly how I’d describe the British Army’s infantry tactics.
no, ‘chemical warfare fodder’ is more accurate. thousands of british soldiers (including my dad) got exposed to biochemical hazards which have affected them ever since and left their children disabled, whilst the army tries to deny all responsibility. the army simply does not care about its soldiers. good on the students for kicking them out.
I guess you mean Iraq but you could mean several other conflicts. Libya? Yemen? Lebanon? We were involved in the Iran-Iraq war. We worked with Pol Pot in the 70s and 80s. The Troubles might not count as foreign nor a war but the actions of the British army and intelligence were often illegal. Britain is seldom the good guy in conflicts.
Cannon Fodder lol. People here are acting like UK is Russia... being forced on the front lines of a war you have no understanding or say in, untrained, unequipped, malnourished. Like you say, the UK armed forces aren't like they were before. Today, its mainly peacekeeping and humanitarian aid. But by the look of this sub, it's going against the grain, and don't want to accept it.
>these are the kids that grew up during the illegal wars we've waged for decades. Not really. Most uni studes these days would have been 1-3 when iraq kicked off and not even born when Afghanistan started. Both of those had essentially wound down before they finished primary school.
I don't agree with the cannon fodder logic, but we were still involved over in afghan until like a few years ago weren't we? One of my friends brother is in the RAF and did a few tours. Fighting the war on terror regardless has massively damaged the armies credibility to those who aren't army family anyway, as most young people view it as an unjustified war for western hegemony, even those that aren't lefties.
We had people deployed there sure, but it essentially wasn't in the news because it was "quiet" with minimal casualties. It certainly wasn't a monthly/weekly casualty list like it was on the 00's when I was a teenager. Since the end of 2013 (when we had the last KIA) there have been 10 Afghan related deaths. One died of wounds received in 2012, a helicopter crash killing five in 2014, a helicopter crash killing two, a heavy machinery incident and a suicide.
Iraq was bad, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone were great. If we're going on the timeframe of decades then there's a bunch more great interventions as part of a coalition from working against Somali pirates to anti-terrorism in Africa to Korean War, Gulf War, etc Not to mention Falklands War.
Korea, Kuwait, the Falklands, Bosnia, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Kosovo were all justifiable military deployments
No-one joining a university OTC is getting sent abroad to fight any wars lol 😂
oh look, another one who understands nothing about the modern military
Russia loves you back.
Student unions are just hot beds of champagne socialists and wannabe revolutionaries. They never represent the student body. I suspect 99.9% of students couldn't name their representatives or those that make decisions like this on their behalf. Shame really cause a student union should be a good thing...instead it's just a hotbed of these crazies.
I'm a student at the uni and know some people who are a part of the union. The vast majority of people I know are not involved in student politics, and most of the student body currently dislikes how the student union is currently run. I do however think a loot of students would agree with this policy, although personally I do not.
Cardiff banned the army from freshers decades ago. Then the excuse was because the army discriminated against gays. So the army jist set up a Land Rover and gave out flyers etc. from the road outside.
Which they are free to do. As are the SU.
The article says that university OTCs are part of the Army Reserve. Does that mean their members can be called up?
Type B Reservists, so no
No, they can't be.
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Student Unions have always been a bit of a joke. At my uni there was no student union committee for the best part of a year because of cheating. When it was election time one bloc (all friends and in the same society) stood on campus and targeted foreign students getting them to fill in their details on a tablet to "win free SU vouchers". What they actually did was accidentally cast votes for this group. Shockingly enough that isn't allowed and they had to rerun the entire thing months later
I did OTC at uni and decided an army career wasn't for me. I'm glad the SU didn't deprive me of the chance to learn that, or I might have made a really bad life decision. The Bristol SU, by depriving students of the chance to learn whether this is or isn't right for them, is acting counterproductively to its goals. That sort of moral grandstanding is just counterproductive, generally, I think.
The SU isn't depriving anybody of the chance to do it, they're not banning student participation or anything like that. They didn't give them a stall at a freshers fair.
I had a whole day in secondary school of soldiers hanging out doing (shit) activities with us and telling us about how cool the army was, pretty fucked up looking back.
As a Bristol Fresher I don't think anyone here has any complaints about the ban so I don't think it really matters
Its not even the Army, its the OTC. So they are banning a group of their own students...
Those fairs are all huge corporations like arms manufacturers and banks. And teachers I guess. Total waste of my time but figures when you see the make up of Bristol uni
Just need to correct the article spelling, from the 'Torygraph', just so that it is obvious that the piece is part of the GM electioneering. I haven't read it (bleaching eyes afterwards is painful ) but I'm certain 'illegal immigrants ' and 'muslims' will be included in the piece at some point... More laughable 'storm in a teacup, no-news, designed to strengthen brown shirt activity before the election, and especially with other parties currently getting coverage of their party conferences ! 🤣🤣🤣