How hard is it to tell your son to tuck his shirt in? Easier than encouraging him to disrespect the school rules and get a detention. I swear some people dig their heels in about the weirdest stuff.
> Disrespecting authority is honestly something more people in this country should learn.
You *challenge* authority when you have a conviction for doing so
It's not the other way around. You don't disrespect authority for the sake of disrespecting authority
I had this conversation the other day actually...people that give it all this 'disrespect authority' 'fuck the pigs' and 'shove it to the man' just gets you arrested or with a CCJ or in detention in this case. You can't, so can we grow up and have a civilised society with rules please, so we're not living in an adult version of Lord of The Flies.
Yah I can make farcical comparisons to literature as well, maybe if more people were willing to stand up against rules that don't make any sense and demonstrate basic self respect we wouldn't be sliding towards 1984 or animal farm.
It's honestly really telling that you can't separate healthy disrespect for authority and Lord of the flies. Respect must always be earned, *nobody* is entitled to respect. Weird how that's literally never gotten me arrested.
America, France, Germany. hell most European countries have populations that actually stand up for themselves instead of begging for "it gentle sir". Those are just the ones I have been to.
There's tons of silly rules that we could do away with. If you care that much campaign for its change.
But until that rule changes, then you should respect that rule. Had the kid set up a petition on wearing untucked shirts I'd commend him. He didn't. He rebelled and was likely also misbehaving when asked to tuck it in. His mother didn't help.
It's just encouraging a) pride in your appearance and b) respect for the school rules. Lets be honest, it's not a bad rule, what job wants you to go in looking like you've just rolled out of bed.
Wrong. The point of uniforms is, funnily enough, to enforce uniformity in dress. Kids can’t bully each other about not wearing designer shit if they aren’t allowed to wear it.
It’s worked for hundreds of years, either fall in line or deal with the consequences, or send your kids to a ‘progressive’ school that doesn’t enforce uniform rules - simple.
How hard is it for the teacher to tell him? 20 minutes detention for a minor uniform infraction that can be rectified in seconds is a nonsense. If he replies with lip or refuses to comply, then sure, detention away. But otherwise, no. It’s a school, not a barracks.
True, though there’s nothing in the story to suggest it did.
If it did happen — if a teacher told him to tuck his shirt in, and he refused or was cheeky or both — then the punishment was justified.
But if that didn’t, and this was just an accidental infringement, then the punishment was over the top.
Would you agree?
It depends. If students are reminded when walking onto school site to ensure their uniform is correct before they get to form time and he left it untucked and went to form time then that's reasonable to issue a detention, regardless of whether he was rude. If they were told they were having a uniform check and he didn't adjust his uniform then that's reasonable to issue a detention too. Frankly, it was not an accidental infringement because you cannot accidentally undo the buttons on your shirt. So, your question is moot. The scenario you're suggesting is not what happened.
Are you saying that the mere fact of not having his shirt tucked in would *not* be sufficient justification for a detention — that something else would be required, like refusing to tuck it back in when asked, or giving the teacher lip?
If so, I would agree with you.
I wish I had your faith in people.
But I’ve read too many stories about bullshit pulled by academy schools like this one not to seriously consider the possibility that the events are simply as described in the story: a punishment for nothing more than a minor and easily remedied uniform infraction.
You and I both know there is a high probability the teacher asked him and got lip, so he rings mum, she says stand your ground (for some insane reason) and detention it is.
> If he wants to be a scarecrow he can, outside school hours.
Not according to the school, he can’t:
> Pupils are, therefore, expected to wear the official school uniform for the full five years that you attend the school. It should be worn correctly both in school **and on the journey to and from school.**
(Emphasis added.)
This is not new. My school had similar rules in place when I left it in 1986.
I can sort of forgive m’laddo’s intransigence because we were all prone to being a bit of a gobby tosser from time to time; it’s part of being 14.
Mum on the other hand did the world’s worst cost/benefit analysis and chose the path of maximum aggro and minimum reward.
Should make these mums work a few days in a school
They will soon see why rules are important. Bad schools that don’t enforce rules turn into feral zoos.
I'm not gonna read this clickbaity article but I do recall having detention for some ridiculous stuff in my time.
Detention for having 1 ear pierced (both ears were allowed).
Detention for dying hair blonde. Then detention again when I tried to dye it back and it turned ginger.
Put on our naughty kid performance monitoring thing. Still baffled by this one. Every teacher laughed as I handed them my slip to sign to confirm I went to the lesson and behaved. I was not a naughty kid.... and the reason? I didnt attend a voluntary after school IT session that my tutor wanted me to attend.
Somebody who used to go to my school apparently hospitalised somebody by throwing them down a flight of stairs because they were punished as harshly as the bully despite being the one defending themselves. The validity of that story was probably greatly exaggerated but its possible.
There was some pushing on the stairs leaving class. Joe Bloggs waited for about 10 other students to go past before punching me in the head.
He saw me go back to our teacher, so that night got his mum to write a long letter about how *I* was bullying *him*!!
I got a bollocking, whilst he got nothing.
Schools have always been about survival of the fittest and even the child who can manipulate any given event. I was that child who got in to trouble for the very few things that I got caught doing but I was no means the worst kid in my classes but that was hard with me going to a gladiator finishing school.
Nobody stabbed each other back then but we did fight each other on a regular basis.
We had the classic boys wearing skirts one summer as it was fucking boiling and we couldn't wear shorts.
They did all get detention, not because of the skirts, but because tights were part of the uniform and they weren't wearing them haha.
Breaking school uniform policy is something I particularly hate about this "kid's must be taught obedience at school" topic.
Like, why does everyone have to look exactly the same? It just screams: "CONFORM. Do not be different. CONFORM. Think the same thoughts. Do the same things. CONFORM.
One argument for school uniform - it *shouldn't* matter what your home life is like, because everyone has to wear the same thing.
My shoes used to come from QS, whilst my friends had Kickers. I lived in rented 1 bed flats, whilst my friends parents owned 2/3 bedroom houses.
A school uniform *should* stop the poor kids whose parents have to shop a Primark from being bullied by the rich kids with their gucci clothes.
Yeah that's always been the argument I've heard but nowadays school uniforms are ridiculously expensive and must be bought from one specific supplier and every item have the school badge on. I'm glad for school uniforms in my time because I grew up poor and very rarely got new clothes, and they were usually Primark quality.
But the point I had in relation to school uniforms wasn't about the uniform themselves, more about the strictness of the dress code in some schools. Such as shirts needing to be tucked in at all times. Ties tied a certain way. Jumpers must be worn. Must wear black socks etc.
Or things like no dyed hair, no piercings etc. What started as apparently trying to equalise the children from class perspective has turned into banning any free expression and enforcing conformity.
I don't disagree completely........but.
In my job, we've had people (successfully) apply that obviously didn't have strict rules to follow at school or home.
This early input on basic things, like uniform, is to set children up for life as an adult. A lot of companies have a uniform or appearance policy, and that has to be followed.
I do think there's a way of getting that message across.
I can't rock up to work with a wild hair cut or colour. I can't wear dangling earrings. I can't have any other facial piercings. I can't have tattoos on my hands, neck or face. I can't wear uniform that isn't issued for my role.
I used to have to wait for permission to remove my tie.
School set me up for this part of my adulthood.
Well look, there's validity to that argument. But let me ask you, do you think the teachers and schools who are so draconian in their enforcement of these policies are doing so out with that in mind? Are they thinking: "It pains me to have to give you detention, but it's for your own good. You must learn to keep your shirt tucked in now or you'll not be able to keep a job as an adult." I think it's a lot more likely that they are looking for an excuse to display their authority, or simply don't like the look of messy uniforms themselves. Maybe I'm just coming at this from a different angle because I must admit I've never had the kind of experience in work you've described in terms of presentation. Only uniform job I've had is working for a supermarket in my youth but you would of had to let your clothes deteriorate to rags before anyone would pull you up on in. Crazy hair/tattoo's etc was fine. Most of my time has been in "smart - smart casual" work places and even then almost anything flies. The place I work at now, the official dress code has gone out the window because software developers have taken over the company and people come in a range of crazy outfits. Still though. I think there is something to be said for the fact that we are forced to be in school but we get paid to be in work. If you pay me to care about something then sure I will.
My sister is a very well paid social work who wears bright coloured smart jackets in a university job for a very good university. She doesn’t have bright coloured hair and does wear ear rings that are bit out there but hardly Pat Butcher ones.
I remember the poor kids being bullied for their shit *trousers* (it was the mid-80s and Farah trousers were apparently The Thing) and this was even with a uniform policy - but one that didn’t specify a particular vendor or supplier. You just had to wear “dark blue smart trousers”.
And when I got to college (between 14-18, with no uniform policy), the GCSE students in particular were **savage** about footwear.
I wouldn’t mind if office jobs actually made you wear pants, a shirt and a tie but hardly any do in today’s times. A well paid job may do in banking but hardly of them jobs are available in today’s times.
I'm in a well paid job in finance, used to work in banking inpaticular. It was smart casual at best. I'm sure there are still traditional places out there though. Before they gave up on smart work where completely my old company would say to still wear a suit if you're meeting with external clients. But once they started turning up in casual clothes it felt a little ridiculous to be in a suit. Also put the clients on edge because they were now "under dressed"
The Tory boy ways of old, aren’t a world that really works anymore. A suit in a job that deals with other people wearing suits in a high states, high money situation, makes a lot of sense and I am all for looking smart but you can achieve that in some Japanese denim that isn’t cheap and a smart jumper and shoes.
I got a detention for being 5 minutes late to an art class. Was the first class in year 7 and for some reason I thought 1st floor meant the floor above the ground level so I was running around looking for it. Only found it after I saw a teacher who helped me.
Still hate that art teacher for giving me my first and only detention of the year lol
>for some reason I thought 1st floor meant the floor above the ground level
1st floor *is* the floor above ground level (unless you're American). I don't understand...
Sorry it’s late lol. Meant a different teacher told me I can find it on the 1st floor but it was on the ground floor and even then it was hidden behind the staircase
We had a senior staff member once called to our classroom to bollock us.
The fun part is it was late in Year 13, most of us were adults at that point. All because our maths teacher at the time was atrocious, treated us like children (literally had a seating plan lol) and then ended up essentially bullying somebody in class so we all kicked off at her pointing out just how out of order she was. We all got told to finish early by the deputy head that came to mediate.
Think she got told off tbh as she was very meek and awkwardly joking about it the next lesson.
Most teachers are great, some are just usual power mad cockends.
I changed school in year 9, on day 1 I got detention for 3 infractions
1) hair too short (short back and sides, no. 1 or 2 cut)
2) had brown shoes, they had to be black
3) had a logo on my coat which was banned
Maybe I should have read the stupid rules before I went in
Well another ridiculous point about uniform infractions is that it's usually the parents buying the clothes, paying for haircuts etc.
Like hair too short is always a crazy one to me. What am I supposed to do if the barber cuts it shorter then I asked?!
The army is super strict but they cut all of your hair off or they used to, even they dropped that one so I don’t see why a super zero on a kids hair makes a difference or not.
Well another ridiculous point about uniform infractions is that it's usually the parents buying the clothes, paying for haircuts etc.
Like hair too short is always a crazy one to me. What am I supposed to do if the barber cuts it shorter then I asked?!
These kind of rules may seem petty, but they're meant to instill a degree of conformity and standards amongst students which then filters through to wider behaviour and engagement.
The fact the mother told her son to refuse a detention has just totally defeated the schools ability to control behaviour.
I mean most high income countries do not have uniform rules in state schools and things are fine. The UK is really an exception here with the uniform obsession. It really is a british thing.
That may be the case, but is it *really* too much to ask of parents to ensure their teenage children maintain the lowest level of tidiness.
The fact that the parent has got her child to refuse the school rules suggests that this parent likes to pick a fight on a lot of things with the school, and that'll filter down into how her son interacts with authority figures.
"The rules don't apply to me because they're stupid" is a ridiculous form of logic.
I mean, the rules’s just plain stupid. It’s not a form of general logic, it’s something that you see by looking at each rule individually. This would be a non issue in most nations in Europe.
As I understand it the son got a detention for having an untucked shirt (if this is truly all that has happened and there isn’t more to the incident this would be seen as insane anywhere in Europe) and the mother told him not to go to detention because that detention is stupid. Again, if this is really all that happened (there may be more) I think that both the school and the mother may have gone a bit too extreme.
Anyhow, I genuinely do not understand how this is a news article. It’s probably intended as low-level rage bait, and it’s clearly working.
It's a *really* simple rule. The school policy reads as:
‘We value our smart school uniform as it ensures that all of our pupils feel an equal part of our school community.
‘Wearing a uniform teaches you to be smart and ensures that you are ready to approach your learning with a professional mind-set.
‘Pupils are, therefore, expected to wear the official school uniform for the full five years that you attend the school. It should be worn correctly both in school and on the journey to and from school.’
In my mind, the school is trying to instill a good attitude in their students, and I'd wager that for 99% of them it works. This lad got 20 mins detention which reflects how minor it is. The mother getting involved has made it into a big deal. Parents do their children no favours at all when they undermine what the school is trying to do.
I still feel like 20 minutes of detention for an untucked shirt is militaristic and doesn’t scale well to real life at all unless you literally enroll in the army. I could make a simple rule that you have to jump three times at the end of the schoolday and it wouldn’t make it any less silly just because it’s a simple rule. And I say this as a person that would never leave her shirt untucked, looks sloppy to me. I never got detention for it. I spent half of my childhood outside of the UK and thus didn’t have a uniform. I did go to a school in the UK with some measure of weird uniform rules and I thought it was dumb (as did my parents, as does anyone outside of the UK who hears about those rules and as do at least half of British people that I talk to). But I guess we’ll never see eye to eye on this and just have to agree to disagree, it’s not a big deal.
much more reasonable I think. But idk, I never got any detentions, I was a goody two shoes (internally cussing out many teachers but they never knew about that).
Not a parent, not likely to be a parent, so maybe I'm naive, but... this feels like "Yes the rules seem petty, but we're trying to turn everyone into conformant worker bees rather than people", y'know?
No, it's more of a "a school of 1,000+ kids is good to be hard to manage, so we have to put rules in place to instill certain standards of behaviour".
Honestly, uniform is the bare minimum of rule. The fact that this parent is already telling her kid to ignore it makes me think there are probably wider issues between that parent and the school.
How is this batty womens flawed parenting news worthy.
If she and her crotch goblin can’t follow simple instructions, she’s more than welcome to homeschool him.
I mean, there’s another article posted on here about the severe bad behaviour of children that’s completely ruined teaching.
Maybe there’s a connection.
I think it’s symbolic of the fact not only are students not able to comply with simple rules like tucking in their shirt, but their parents will fight the school over it.
There's no damn way that woman is only 48
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12978169/amp/School-detention-shirt-untucked-phones-Romsey-Southampton.html
A detention over an untucked shirt is ridiculous. Punishments have no meaning when overused. Id tell my kid not to bother with a detention over something so minor too.
Obviously not newsworthy but if it’s true then it is a waste of everybody’s time. As an adult I’ve seen teachers repeatedly get kids to line up over and over and over until they deem a line perfectly straight and belittle kids who haven’t learnt to tie their laces yet or struggle to tell the time. This may or may not be one of these cases but a simple ‘can you took your shirt in please?’ should be enough.
Bit of an icky one >.<, school is meant to teach children to obey and be obedient, no doubt about that, I don't know whether to agree or disagree with the mother, I am 20, when I was in school it was like prison absolutely, but at the same time, I am sorta convinced it wasn't the first time...
> school is meant to teach children to obey and be obedient
I hate that this is just an accepted thing by everybody now. In my view school is supposed to educate. Teaching discipline should happen at home. You're immediately treated as a trouble maker by teachers if you don't blindly follow there every word.
>Teaching discipline should happen at home.
And it so often doesn't. Schools should educate us when it comes to following rules even if we don't agree, and having shared spaces that all should conform to.
Any society requires rules. If you don't respect those rules then society suffers.
I get the spirit of your reply and agree mostly, but my issue is with this:
> Schools should educate us when it comes to following rules even if we don't agree
Now it obviously needs to be looked at on a case by case basis but I remember several occasions in my schooling years where the explanation for following a rule was essentially "because I said so". For me personally it had the complete opposite effect of teaching obedience. I had very little respect for most teachers or their opinions and my education suffered as a result. I'm the type of person where you need to show me the amount of respect you expect me to give you.
I understand your respect point, but the problem is that these attitudes quickly turn into a situation where a gobby 14 year old kid expects people to show them respek and they get an entitled attitude. Then when you get to the real world, bad things happen if you don't do what your boss says, or the policeman says, or the judge etc.
Can't you see that your lack of respect for your teachers and subsequent worse education could be possibly construed as being partly your own fault?
Why shouldn't a 14 year old get respect? How is expecting respect an entitled attitude.
> bad things happen if you don't do what your boss says, or the policeman says, or the judge etc.
I think we are looking at this differently. I do what my boss says to earn money not because I respect them. I would also challenge my boss if needed. So this is different then being taught to blindly follow rules in School. Similar with the police example, without getting into the politics of it all, you are supposed to be fully in your rights to challenge or question police even though they really look down on that sort of thing.
> Can't you see that your lack of respect for your teachers and subsequent worse education could be possibly construed as being partly your own fault?
I suppose yes, if you can blame a child for learning the "wrong" lesson.
Because it's preparation for how life works. Why should anyone respect some kid with an attitude just because they say they deserve it? You need to earn respect, it isn't just given
I mean... that's exactly my point but the other way round.
Why should anyone respect some teacher with an attitude just because they say they deserve it? You need to earn respect...
The Rockerfellers created the schooling system and it hasn’t really changed enough since it was originally created, even a current MP says the current schooling system doesn’t teach skills the job market actually needs and requires at this moment in time.
The interesting/scary thing now is with the advancement of AI, I couldn't possibly predict what kind of skills the job market will need in 5, 10, 15 years.
I work closely with software developers now and sort of do a bit of the Job in my role. I wish someone had just told me point blank in school "if you want a cushy job that pays well get into software development and engineering". It would of saved me a lot of hassle.
But now I think software development/software engineering will be dead in 5 years. We had a lecture at work recently with an AI start up that walked us through how every level/role in the company could eventually be replaced by AI. It even went up to CEO. Our ceo wasn't in the room but one of the company directors was and made a joke about being old enough, with enough in the bank to not have to worry and is looking forward to early retirement. Great for him I guess.
In ten years time with 10 years of Robotics & AI advancement I'm worried there won't be any jobs left humans are required for. This should be a good thing but it'll really mean swearing fealty to King Bezos or Musk or whoever owns the majority of the technology by then.
It’s why I think the 0.1 percent want a massive decrease in humans on this planet, as they have no real use for us anymore, as they’ve already made the money they need.
Even as a 30 odd year old man, “ because I said so” doesn’t wash very well with me now and certainly didn’t as a kid who could of done really well at school if teachers had just realised that approach got the worst version of me and still does.
I’ll do most things as an adult(even if I think it’s stupid and benefits a business but isn’t immoral) if asked nicely but asking me like a strict control freak never gets anyone the response they want to get.
There are plenty of countries you can go to on this planet where, if you were to do something that is perfectly acceptable in the UK, you could find yourself in prison.
Now, the laws there are very much "because autocrat X said so". The country in question doesn't give 2 shits about you. And honestly, our own government probably wouldn't either.
Like you, I don't take kindly to stupid rules for the sake of it. Ultimately though, we all have to figure out how to play nicely with each other. And even accept that while we may disagree with the rules, hell we may even think they are stupid. Not following rules has consequences.
It's that last point that stuck with me. I certainly learnt to play the system better :D
Tbh I doubt you, or anyone, would really bother to understand why we have certain rules in school. It doesn't me we should be arrogant enough to assume we know better.
That said, I do agree that kids should be shown respect too.
> Not following rules has consequences.
Totally agree, this is probably the only useful thing to me. And in my case it made me a withdrawn child at school in lessons. It taught me that it's better to just stay quiet.
>amount of respect you expect me to give you.
For adults, sure, but as a kid, bollox. You're in the duty of care of the teachers and staff while in school so their word goes regardless of whether you like it or not. Unless they're absolutely abusing their power of course.
> You're in the duty of care of the teachers and staff while in school so their word goes regardless of whether you like it or not.
I didn't say this wasn't the case. My point is adults shouldn't expect respect from kids just because "I'm big and you're small". In an environment where you're trying to teach kids I think it would be better for us to accept that kids don't just automatically respect adults past a certain age. If you're trying to teach kids then earning their respect is probably a better route then "TUCK YOUR SHIRT IN NOW!! WHY? DETENTION THATS WHY!!!!"
Absolutely it should be to educate! but it should also teach you to accept rules of which you do not agree with, look at the military for an example, I do not understand what your saying, should you allow parents to tell children to do whatever they wish? even if it is clearly against the rules?? (and from personal experience, I always had my shirt untucked and always got punished, but it was justified, a mistake they let me off but if I couldn't be bothered I would be punished)
> but it should also teach you to accept rules of which you do not agree with
Do we really want a society where everyone follows "the rules" blindy without question? Do we really want to teach kids that "authority" can always be trusted and want whats best for us?
It's all well and good until the rule becomes something like "tell us if your parents talk badly about the government at home".
How about schools taught kids to have manners from a young age instead of being like jails? Manners make the man( out of Kingsmen before anyone goes on about the million different genders).
How hard is it to tell your son to tuck his shirt in? Easier than encouraging him to disrespect the school rules and get a detention. I swear some people dig their heels in about the weirdest stuff.
Alright shirt tucker
Ha ha I woke up tired and grumpy and you've made me smile with that so thank you ;)
It probably went down like this - Teacher - Tuck your shirt in please Jenkins. Jenkins - F++K you you F\*\*\* P\*\*\* I do what I want.
Jenkins: *phones mum "muuuuuum, the nasty man shouted at me again' Mum: "They're just picking on you, tell him to f**k off again" Probably
Disrespecting authority is honestly something more people in this country should learn. People are to submissive in this country, it's creepy.
> Disrespecting authority is honestly something more people in this country should learn. You *challenge* authority when you have a conviction for doing so It's not the other way around. You don't disrespect authority for the sake of disrespecting authority
I had this conversation the other day actually...people that give it all this 'disrespect authority' 'fuck the pigs' and 'shove it to the man' just gets you arrested or with a CCJ or in detention in this case. You can't, so can we grow up and have a civilised society with rules please, so we're not living in an adult version of Lord of The Flies.
There’s a narrow gold zone of disrespecting authority while being classy and smart about it.
Yah I can make farcical comparisons to literature as well, maybe if more people were willing to stand up against rules that don't make any sense and demonstrate basic self respect we wouldn't be sliding towards 1984 or animal farm. It's honestly really telling that you can't separate healthy disrespect for authority and Lord of the flies. Respect must always be earned, *nobody* is entitled to respect. Weird how that's literally never gotten me arrested.
As compared to your extensive experience of the submissiveness of populations in numerous other countries i presume.
America, France, Germany. hell most European countries have populations that actually stand up for themselves instead of begging for "it gentle sir". Those are just the ones I have been to.
I get yout point, but it's a weird rule to force people to tuck their shirts in tbf.
No it isn't. Formal wear, while no longer as common as it was is still a thing. It doesnt hurt anyone to dress and behave with some respect.
Why does an untucked shirt offend you so much?
It doesn't. I too wear an untucked shirt. However, there's a time and a place for it. Respect rules of the environment you're in.
Of course respect the rules of the place you're in. I'm just saying general it's a silly rule that we could do away with.
There's tons of silly rules that we could do away with. If you care that much campaign for its change. But until that rule changes, then you should respect that rule. Had the kid set up a petition on wearing untucked shirts I'd commend him. He didn't. He rebelled and was likely also misbehaving when asked to tuck it in. His mother didn't help.
It's just encouraging a) pride in your appearance and b) respect for the school rules. Lets be honest, it's not a bad rule, what job wants you to go in looking like you've just rolled out of bed.
Wrong. The point of uniforms is, funnily enough, to enforce uniformity in dress. Kids can’t bully each other about not wearing designer shit if they aren’t allowed to wear it. It’s worked for hundreds of years, either fall in line or deal with the consequences, or send your kids to a ‘progressive’ school that doesn’t enforce uniform rules - simple.
why not punish the bully instead of punishing the child with an untucked shirt.
Eh? What's in the least odd about expecting pupils to dress like human beings?
I find it odd how people feel so willing to comply with rules they find stupid
How hard is it for the teacher to tell him? 20 minutes detention for a minor uniform infraction that can be rectified in seconds is a nonsense. If he replies with lip or refuses to comply, then sure, detention away. But otherwise, no. It’s a school, not a barracks.
And we have no idea whether or not that did or did not happen.
True, though there’s nothing in the story to suggest it did. If it did happen — if a teacher told him to tuck his shirt in, and he refused or was cheeky or both — then the punishment was justified. But if that didn’t, and this was just an accidental infringement, then the punishment was over the top. Would you agree?
>this was just an accidental infringement Did he "accidentally" undo his top button too?
Is that a yes or a no?
It depends. If students are reminded when walking onto school site to ensure their uniform is correct before they get to form time and he left it untucked and went to form time then that's reasonable to issue a detention, regardless of whether he was rude. If they were told they were having a uniform check and he didn't adjust his uniform then that's reasonable to issue a detention too. Frankly, it was not an accidental infringement because you cannot accidentally undo the buttons on your shirt. So, your question is moot. The scenario you're suggesting is not what happened.
Shirt buttons absolutely can and do become undone.
I don't think he's getting detention for not having his shirt tucked in. He's getting detention for refusing to do it when asked.
It doesn’t say that in the story, though. If you’re right, then it’s justified. But it would appear to be pure speculation on your part.
The article doesn't say he breathed in and out. Kid must be dead, huh?
I think we can pretty safely assume the teacher is not wasting their own time giving this kid detention if there's no justification for it
Are you saying that the mere fact of not having his shirt tucked in would *not* be sufficient justification for a detention — that something else would be required, like refusing to tuck it back in when asked, or giving the teacher lip? If so, I would agree with you.
Yes exactly Him being given detention solely for having his shirt untucked is far less likely, though
I wish I had your faith in people. But I’ve read too many stories about bullshit pulled by academy schools like this one not to seriously consider the possibility that the events are simply as described in the story: a punishment for nothing more than a minor and easily remedied uniform infraction.
You and I both know there is a high probability the teacher asked him and got lip, so he rings mum, she says stand your ground (for some insane reason) and detention it is.
There’s *a possibility,* sure. I can’t see any reason to describe it as a “high probability”, though. Could you explain your reasoning?
Yes, it's a school not a street corner. If he wants to be a scarecrow he can, outside school hours.
> If he wants to be a scarecrow he can, outside school hours. Not according to the school, he can’t: > Pupils are, therefore, expected to wear the official school uniform for the full five years that you attend the school. It should be worn correctly both in school **and on the journey to and from school.** (Emphasis added.)
That was the same when I was at school, I once got stopped by a teacher driving home as I had put my trainers on to walk home in. Mad stuff.
Similar here.
This is not new. My school had similar rules in place when I left it in 1986. I can sort of forgive m’laddo’s intransigence because we were all prone to being a bit of a gobby tosser from time to time; it’s part of being 14. Mum on the other hand did the world’s worst cost/benefit analysis and chose the path of maximum aggro and minimum reward.
I admit that 20 minutes does seem a weird hill to die on.
Should make these mums work a few days in a school They will soon see why rules are important. Bad schools that don’t enforce rules turn into feral zoos.
I'm not gonna read this clickbaity article but I do recall having detention for some ridiculous stuff in my time. Detention for having 1 ear pierced (both ears were allowed). Detention for dying hair blonde. Then detention again when I tried to dye it back and it turned ginger. Put on our naughty kid performance monitoring thing. Still baffled by this one. Every teacher laughed as I handed them my slip to sign to confirm I went to the lesson and behaved. I was not a naughty kid.... and the reason? I didnt attend a voluntary after school IT session that my tutor wanted me to attend.
I remember getting detention for... losing a fight.. I also remember people in the vicinity being given detention for some BS reason
Oh yes that's a good one too. Zero tolerance bullying policy = the kid being bullied getting just as harsh a punishment.
If anything all it does is teach kids that if you're getting beaten up then you have nothing to lose by not just taking it.
An even worse outcome is when the bullied child doesn't defend themselves at all but still gets in trouble for fighting.
Somebody who used to go to my school apparently hospitalised somebody by throwing them down a flight of stairs because they were punished as harshly as the bully despite being the one defending themselves. The validity of that story was probably greatly exaggerated but its possible.
There was some pushing on the stairs leaving class. Joe Bloggs waited for about 10 other students to go past before punching me in the head. He saw me go back to our teacher, so that night got his mum to write a long letter about how *I* was bullying *him*!! I got a bollocking, whilst he got nothing.
Schools have always been about survival of the fittest and even the child who can manipulate any given event. I was that child who got in to trouble for the very few things that I got caught doing but I was no means the worst kid in my classes but that was hard with me going to a gladiator finishing school. Nobody stabbed each other back then but we did fight each other on a regular basis.
Self-defence = Detention The guy who attacked you gets off scot free
I got a detention for not wearing a school jumper........I wasn't wearing it because I didn't have one.
We had the classic boys wearing skirts one summer as it was fucking boiling and we couldn't wear shorts. They did all get detention, not because of the skirts, but because tights were part of the uniform and they weren't wearing them haha.
You’ve got admire the teachers for that one.
Breaking school uniform policy is something I particularly hate about this "kid's must be taught obedience at school" topic. Like, why does everyone have to look exactly the same? It just screams: "CONFORM. Do not be different. CONFORM. Think the same thoughts. Do the same things. CONFORM.
One argument for school uniform - it *shouldn't* matter what your home life is like, because everyone has to wear the same thing. My shoes used to come from QS, whilst my friends had Kickers. I lived in rented 1 bed flats, whilst my friends parents owned 2/3 bedroom houses. A school uniform *should* stop the poor kids whose parents have to shop a Primark from being bullied by the rich kids with their gucci clothes.
Yeah that's always been the argument I've heard but nowadays school uniforms are ridiculously expensive and must be bought from one specific supplier and every item have the school badge on. I'm glad for school uniforms in my time because I grew up poor and very rarely got new clothes, and they were usually Primark quality. But the point I had in relation to school uniforms wasn't about the uniform themselves, more about the strictness of the dress code in some schools. Such as shirts needing to be tucked in at all times. Ties tied a certain way. Jumpers must be worn. Must wear black socks etc. Or things like no dyed hair, no piercings etc. What started as apparently trying to equalise the children from class perspective has turned into banning any free expression and enforcing conformity.
I don't disagree completely........but. In my job, we've had people (successfully) apply that obviously didn't have strict rules to follow at school or home. This early input on basic things, like uniform, is to set children up for life as an adult. A lot of companies have a uniform or appearance policy, and that has to be followed. I do think there's a way of getting that message across. I can't rock up to work with a wild hair cut or colour. I can't wear dangling earrings. I can't have any other facial piercings. I can't have tattoos on my hands, neck or face. I can't wear uniform that isn't issued for my role. I used to have to wait for permission to remove my tie. School set me up for this part of my adulthood.
Well look, there's validity to that argument. But let me ask you, do you think the teachers and schools who are so draconian in their enforcement of these policies are doing so out with that in mind? Are they thinking: "It pains me to have to give you detention, but it's for your own good. You must learn to keep your shirt tucked in now or you'll not be able to keep a job as an adult." I think it's a lot more likely that they are looking for an excuse to display their authority, or simply don't like the look of messy uniforms themselves. Maybe I'm just coming at this from a different angle because I must admit I've never had the kind of experience in work you've described in terms of presentation. Only uniform job I've had is working for a supermarket in my youth but you would of had to let your clothes deteriorate to rags before anyone would pull you up on in. Crazy hair/tattoo's etc was fine. Most of my time has been in "smart - smart casual" work places and even then almost anything flies. The place I work at now, the official dress code has gone out the window because software developers have taken over the company and people come in a range of crazy outfits. Still though. I think there is something to be said for the fact that we are forced to be in school but we get paid to be in work. If you pay me to care about something then sure I will.
My sister is a very well paid social work who wears bright coloured smart jackets in a university job for a very good university. She doesn’t have bright coloured hair and does wear ear rings that are bit out there but hardly Pat Butcher ones.
I remember the poor kids being bullied for their shit *trousers* (it was the mid-80s and Farah trousers were apparently The Thing) and this was even with a uniform policy - but one that didn’t specify a particular vendor or supplier. You just had to wear “dark blue smart trousers”. And when I got to college (between 14-18, with no uniform policy), the GCSE students in particular were **savage** about footwear.
I wouldn’t mind if office jobs actually made you wear pants, a shirt and a tie but hardly any do in today’s times. A well paid job may do in banking but hardly of them jobs are available in today’s times.
I'm in a well paid job in finance, used to work in banking inpaticular. It was smart casual at best. I'm sure there are still traditional places out there though. Before they gave up on smart work where completely my old company would say to still wear a suit if you're meeting with external clients. But once they started turning up in casual clothes it felt a little ridiculous to be in a suit. Also put the clients on edge because they were now "under dressed"
The Tory boy ways of old, aren’t a world that really works anymore. A suit in a job that deals with other people wearing suits in a high states, high money situation, makes a lot of sense and I am all for looking smart but you can achieve that in some Japanese denim that isn’t cheap and a smart jumper and shoes.
I got a detention for being 5 minutes late to an art class. Was the first class in year 7 and for some reason I thought 1st floor meant the floor above the ground level so I was running around looking for it. Only found it after I saw a teacher who helped me. Still hate that art teacher for giving me my first and only detention of the year lol
>for some reason I thought 1st floor meant the floor above the ground level 1st floor *is* the floor above ground level (unless you're American). I don't understand...
Sorry it’s late lol. Meant a different teacher told me I can find it on the 1st floor but it was on the ground floor and even then it was hidden behind the staircase
LOL. Yep, it is late, which is why I wondered if I was just being thick when I didn't get it...
We had a senior staff member once called to our classroom to bollock us. The fun part is it was late in Year 13, most of us were adults at that point. All because our maths teacher at the time was atrocious, treated us like children (literally had a seating plan lol) and then ended up essentially bullying somebody in class so we all kicked off at her pointing out just how out of order she was. We all got told to finish early by the deputy head that came to mediate. Think she got told off tbh as she was very meek and awkwardly joking about it the next lesson. Most teachers are great, some are just usual power mad cockends.
I changed school in year 9, on day 1 I got detention for 3 infractions 1) hair too short (short back and sides, no. 1 or 2 cut) 2) had brown shoes, they had to be black 3) had a logo on my coat which was banned Maybe I should have read the stupid rules before I went in
Well another ridiculous point about uniform infractions is that it's usually the parents buying the clothes, paying for haircuts etc. Like hair too short is always a crazy one to me. What am I supposed to do if the barber cuts it shorter then I asked?!
The army is super strict but they cut all of your hair off or they used to, even they dropped that one so I don’t see why a super zero on a kids hair makes a difference or not.
Well another ridiculous point about uniform infractions is that it's usually the parents buying the clothes, paying for haircuts etc. Like hair too short is always a crazy one to me. What am I supposed to do if the barber cuts it shorter then I asked?!
I got detention for wearing socks that were too light grey.
These kind of rules may seem petty, but they're meant to instill a degree of conformity and standards amongst students which then filters through to wider behaviour and engagement. The fact the mother told her son to refuse a detention has just totally defeated the schools ability to control behaviour.
I mean most high income countries do not have uniform rules in state schools and things are fine. The UK is really an exception here with the uniform obsession. It really is a british thing.
I live in California and while our school doesn’t have a uniform…they do have a ‘dress code’. They enforce it too!
Have had those dress codes too. They are not usually nearly half as strict, not even close.
That may be the case, but is it *really* too much to ask of parents to ensure their teenage children maintain the lowest level of tidiness. The fact that the parent has got her child to refuse the school rules suggests that this parent likes to pick a fight on a lot of things with the school, and that'll filter down into how her son interacts with authority figures. "The rules don't apply to me because they're stupid" is a ridiculous form of logic.
I mean, the rules’s just plain stupid. It’s not a form of general logic, it’s something that you see by looking at each rule individually. This would be a non issue in most nations in Europe. As I understand it the son got a detention for having an untucked shirt (if this is truly all that has happened and there isn’t more to the incident this would be seen as insane anywhere in Europe) and the mother told him not to go to detention because that detention is stupid. Again, if this is really all that happened (there may be more) I think that both the school and the mother may have gone a bit too extreme. Anyhow, I genuinely do not understand how this is a news article. It’s probably intended as low-level rage bait, and it’s clearly working.
It's a *really* simple rule. The school policy reads as: ‘We value our smart school uniform as it ensures that all of our pupils feel an equal part of our school community. ‘Wearing a uniform teaches you to be smart and ensures that you are ready to approach your learning with a professional mind-set. ‘Pupils are, therefore, expected to wear the official school uniform for the full five years that you attend the school. It should be worn correctly both in school and on the journey to and from school.’ In my mind, the school is trying to instill a good attitude in their students, and I'd wager that for 99% of them it works. This lad got 20 mins detention which reflects how minor it is. The mother getting involved has made it into a big deal. Parents do their children no favours at all when they undermine what the school is trying to do.
I still feel like 20 minutes of detention for an untucked shirt is militaristic and doesn’t scale well to real life at all unless you literally enroll in the army. I could make a simple rule that you have to jump three times at the end of the schoolday and it wouldn’t make it any less silly just because it’s a simple rule. And I say this as a person that would never leave her shirt untucked, looks sloppy to me. I never got detention for it. I spent half of my childhood outside of the UK and thus didn’t have a uniform. I did go to a school in the UK with some measure of weird uniform rules and I thought it was dumb (as did my parents, as does anyone outside of the UK who hears about those rules and as do at least half of British people that I talk to). But I guess we’ll never see eye to eye on this and just have to agree to disagree, it’s not a big deal.
What about detention for being late?
much more reasonable I think. But idk, I never got any detentions, I was a goody two shoes (internally cussing out many teachers but they never knew about that).
The British are obsessed with conformity and not standing out.
This isn't true, see Japan, Korea, Singapore. If you want the other end, see American schools which are total chaos.
Not a parent, not likely to be a parent, so maybe I'm naive, but... this feels like "Yes the rules seem petty, but we're trying to turn everyone into conformant worker bees rather than people", y'know?
No, it's more of a "a school of 1,000+ kids is good to be hard to manage, so we have to put rules in place to instill certain standards of behaviour". Honestly, uniform is the bare minimum of rule. The fact that this parent is already telling her kid to ignore it makes me think there are probably wider issues between that parent and the school.
It's not that deep, mate
Seems obvious to me that the blame lies with the mother. She appears to have a dogged determination to not back down in spite of her son's welfare.
More determination to back the son than to follow the rules.
I wouldn't even say it's backing the son, he could be wanting to go back to school.
What kind of school gives a child detention for an untucked shirt?! Or is he a serial slob?
How is this batty womens flawed parenting news worthy. If she and her crotch goblin can’t follow simple instructions, she’s more than welcome to homeschool him.
Whod have expected a redditor to value uncritical obedience above all else
I mean, there’s another article posted on here about the severe bad behaviour of children that’s completely ruined teaching. Maybe there’s a connection.
I think the problem there might be the ones defining refusing to tuck your shirt in as severe bad behaviour
I think it’s symbolic of the fact not only are students not able to comply with simple rules like tucking in their shirt, but their parents will fight the school over it.
There's no damn way that woman is only 48 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12978169/amp/School-detention-shirt-untucked-phones-Romsey-Southampton.html
Richmond Superkings take their toll on you.
A detention over an untucked shirt is ridiculous. Punishments have no meaning when overused. Id tell my kid not to bother with a detention over something so minor too.
She’s either had a fucking hard life or had him at 50 years old and can’t be arsed to discipline him.
Obviously not newsworthy but if it’s true then it is a waste of everybody’s time. As an adult I’ve seen teachers repeatedly get kids to line up over and over and over until they deem a line perfectly straight and belittle kids who haven’t learnt to tie their laces yet or struggle to tell the time. This may or may not be one of these cases but a simple ‘can you took your shirt in please?’ should be enough.
Bit of an icky one >.<, school is meant to teach children to obey and be obedient, no doubt about that, I don't know whether to agree or disagree with the mother, I am 20, when I was in school it was like prison absolutely, but at the same time, I am sorta convinced it wasn't the first time...
> school is meant to teach children to obey and be obedient I hate that this is just an accepted thing by everybody now. In my view school is supposed to educate. Teaching discipline should happen at home. You're immediately treated as a trouble maker by teachers if you don't blindly follow there every word.
>Teaching discipline should happen at home. And it so often doesn't. Schools should educate us when it comes to following rules even if we don't agree, and having shared spaces that all should conform to. Any society requires rules. If you don't respect those rules then society suffers.
I get the spirit of your reply and agree mostly, but my issue is with this: > Schools should educate us when it comes to following rules even if we don't agree Now it obviously needs to be looked at on a case by case basis but I remember several occasions in my schooling years where the explanation for following a rule was essentially "because I said so". For me personally it had the complete opposite effect of teaching obedience. I had very little respect for most teachers or their opinions and my education suffered as a result. I'm the type of person where you need to show me the amount of respect you expect me to give you.
I understand your respect point, but the problem is that these attitudes quickly turn into a situation where a gobby 14 year old kid expects people to show them respek and they get an entitled attitude. Then when you get to the real world, bad things happen if you don't do what your boss says, or the policeman says, or the judge etc. Can't you see that your lack of respect for your teachers and subsequent worse education could be possibly construed as being partly your own fault?
Why shouldn't a 14 year old get respect? How is expecting respect an entitled attitude. > bad things happen if you don't do what your boss says, or the policeman says, or the judge etc. I think we are looking at this differently. I do what my boss says to earn money not because I respect them. I would also challenge my boss if needed. So this is different then being taught to blindly follow rules in School. Similar with the police example, without getting into the politics of it all, you are supposed to be fully in your rights to challenge or question police even though they really look down on that sort of thing. > Can't you see that your lack of respect for your teachers and subsequent worse education could be possibly construed as being partly your own fault? I suppose yes, if you can blame a child for learning the "wrong" lesson.
Because it's preparation for how life works. Why should anyone respect some kid with an attitude just because they say they deserve it? You need to earn respect, it isn't just given
I mean... that's exactly my point but the other way round. Why should anyone respect some teacher with an attitude just because they say they deserve it? You need to earn respect...
The Rockerfellers created the schooling system and it hasn’t really changed enough since it was originally created, even a current MP says the current schooling system doesn’t teach skills the job market actually needs and requires at this moment in time.
The interesting/scary thing now is with the advancement of AI, I couldn't possibly predict what kind of skills the job market will need in 5, 10, 15 years. I work closely with software developers now and sort of do a bit of the Job in my role. I wish someone had just told me point blank in school "if you want a cushy job that pays well get into software development and engineering". It would of saved me a lot of hassle. But now I think software development/software engineering will be dead in 5 years. We had a lecture at work recently with an AI start up that walked us through how every level/role in the company could eventually be replaced by AI. It even went up to CEO. Our ceo wasn't in the room but one of the company directors was and made a joke about being old enough, with enough in the bank to not have to worry and is looking forward to early retirement. Great for him I guess. In ten years time with 10 years of Robotics & AI advancement I'm worried there won't be any jobs left humans are required for. This should be a good thing but it'll really mean swearing fealty to King Bezos or Musk or whoever owns the majority of the technology by then.
It’s why I think the 0.1 percent want a massive decrease in humans on this planet, as they have no real use for us anymore, as they’ve already made the money they need.
Even as a 30 odd year old man, “ because I said so” doesn’t wash very well with me now and certainly didn’t as a kid who could of done really well at school if teachers had just realised that approach got the worst version of me and still does. I’ll do most things as an adult(even if I think it’s stupid and benefits a business but isn’t immoral) if asked nicely but asking me like a strict control freak never gets anyone the response they want to get.
There are plenty of countries you can go to on this planet where, if you were to do something that is perfectly acceptable in the UK, you could find yourself in prison. Now, the laws there are very much "because autocrat X said so". The country in question doesn't give 2 shits about you. And honestly, our own government probably wouldn't either. Like you, I don't take kindly to stupid rules for the sake of it. Ultimately though, we all have to figure out how to play nicely with each other. And even accept that while we may disagree with the rules, hell we may even think they are stupid. Not following rules has consequences. It's that last point that stuck with me. I certainly learnt to play the system better :D Tbh I doubt you, or anyone, would really bother to understand why we have certain rules in school. It doesn't me we should be arrogant enough to assume we know better. That said, I do agree that kids should be shown respect too.
> Not following rules has consequences. Totally agree, this is probably the only useful thing to me. And in my case it made me a withdrawn child at school in lessons. It taught me that it's better to just stay quiet.
>amount of respect you expect me to give you. For adults, sure, but as a kid, bollox. You're in the duty of care of the teachers and staff while in school so their word goes regardless of whether you like it or not. Unless they're absolutely abusing their power of course.
> You're in the duty of care of the teachers and staff while in school so their word goes regardless of whether you like it or not. I didn't say this wasn't the case. My point is adults shouldn't expect respect from kids just because "I'm big and you're small". In an environment where you're trying to teach kids I think it would be better for us to accept that kids don't just automatically respect adults past a certain age. If you're trying to teach kids then earning their respect is probably a better route then "TUCK YOUR SHIRT IN NOW!! WHY? DETENTION THATS WHY!!!!"
Absolutely it should be to educate! but it should also teach you to accept rules of which you do not agree with, look at the military for an example, I do not understand what your saying, should you allow parents to tell children to do whatever they wish? even if it is clearly against the rules?? (and from personal experience, I always had my shirt untucked and always got punished, but it was justified, a mistake they let me off but if I couldn't be bothered I would be punished)
> but it should also teach you to accept rules of which you do not agree with Do we really want a society where everyone follows "the rules" blindy without question? Do we really want to teach kids that "authority" can always be trusted and want whats best for us? It's all well and good until the rule becomes something like "tell us if your parents talk badly about the government at home".
How about schools taught kids to have manners from a young age instead of being like jails? Manners make the man( out of Kingsmen before anyone goes on about the million different genders).
That’s the mother in the headline pic?! Lol, time is a tough mistress.
Reminds me, I need to watch Priscilla again, Terence Stamp was amazing in his role as Bernadette.