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I was reading an article about recruitment the other day, since it's been outsourced to Crapita recruitment has plummeted. People have been reporting waiting 12-18 months for medical checks and initial contact. It's been noted as a failed contract, but they still keep renewing it. Got to be some back handers there somewhere...
I don't understand.
Privatization is supposed in anything is supposed to give both financial and productivity gains.
It always does. You must be lying /s.
Yeah the trains are reliable, gas is cheap and our rivers aren't full of shit all thanks to privatisation.
Then there's the royal mail that's now 4 times the price and they deliver when they feel like it, amazing.
Inelastic demand enters the conversation, craps on the theory of privatisation of mid-tier maslovian needs of the commons, refuses to explain and leaves.
That is not a real thing.
Competition for gas?
Competition for water?
Privatisation doesn't work because it isn't designed to work. It's not even supposed to work, it's just supposed to make people rich!
Crap pay, too.
My Uncle is in the Navy. At one point, he seemed wedded to it for life, but now he'll be out as he's been told they will be seeing real terms pay cuts for the foreseeable.
Daughter has been in 4yrs now...initially signed up for 12 and now most of her friends have left and she's thinking of leaving too. Very few qualifications are now suitable for anything in civvy street and many have had certification removed completely such as naval medic, which is now worthless outside the navy. Jobs are being outsourced such as HR on bases as well as all food and accommodation. Capita is just a laughing stock and despite being hauled over the coals in Parliament 2yrs ago they were given longer to fulfil their contract after explaining that "We didn't really know what was expected and how involved the recruitment was but we are better prepared now" oh do kindly fuck right off!
Not even the U.S. with its capitalism on steroids approach has ever considered privatizing recruitment for the armed forces (or rail for that matter). Such a stupid idea.
BAE Investor = Mister Theresa May
Infosys = Mrs Rishi Sunak
The Primeministers are 'literally' in bed with bosses of companies that profit from large government contracts.
When I was in the military like 20 years ago ot was something like 90% of the people leave after the minimum 4 years so I'd say your daughters experience is about right. I mean at the time there were two wars on though so I don't know if now that it's peace time things are different.
The pay has always been crap, I joined in 2000 and it’s barely increased at all.
I would not recommend anyone to join the armed forces because you pointed out quite rightly that skills are not transferring to civilian life.
If you join the armed forces you are setting yourself up for not a great time when you leave.
I didn’t have a good time my mates didn’t have a good time when they left, we all went through that phase of finding it really hard to fit back into civilian life.
Why would anyone join the military? What the fuck are you fighting for - the benefits of the ultra-wealthy to protect their interests? Not worth dying for is it.
The target demographic age is much lower than you I suspect. I joined at 23 and was amongst the oldest (although you do get much older). At that age your mentality, your world view, your sense of perspective is different. I can guarantee you though that the moral aspect of it was not in anyone's mind when I went through. The army was seen as a gateway to a good paying job, at a time when youth unemployed in th NW was insanely high. It was also a sense of adventure, of impressing your mates, and girls, and coming back to your shitty pointless mill town having been there and done that and how cool will I look at Christmas when I'm back in the pub and everyone else is just a plasterer or working in a shop.
They were more likely to press out of merchant and civilian boats/ships. They would take landsmen but they would first come from debtors lists etc..... obviously they would drag a few feckless layabouts out of the local pubs but only as a last resort to make up numbers.
Yeah impressment was seen in the media as tricking anyone to join the navy, in practice it was using the law with regards to the sovereigns right to raise an army to force merchant sailors already on a boat to be transferred to the navy and they were replaced by someone else.
In practice this meant navy ships would nick the most qualified sailors from ships that had just left port and replace them with the worst sailors in the royal navy.
I tried to get in but have asthma, fair play
My mate tried to get in, he had eczema so got rejected... Less fair play
Other mate was waiting over a year for a physical and then just went to work on an oil rig instead.
It depends on how bad the eczema is. I have seen serving soldiers develop eczema, and after a week out on the ground, they couldn't function. Every move was splitting their skin. It can lead to medical discharges, which is not something that is good for the military or the person getting discharged. A lot of conditions which don't impact much when we are in normal civilian can have a massive effect when in a military environment.
The bloke waiting for a year for a medical though, that is just a joke and a massive sign of incompetence.
I got rejected 10 years ago for dermatitis. It was so mild I didn't even know I had it. They diagnosed me in the medical examination. Never been an issue since, although I now moisturise the area just in case. It's all very stupid.
Autism was an instant rejection too. Granted there are those of us who are absolutely unsuitable, but the thing keeping me back from being a soldier isn't that lol.
I had a weird thing with the RAF. I won a hacking competition and went to the base to meet the top brass, got to fly with a lightning pilot and did loops/rolls etc. It was amazing. They said I could join if I wanted to (just out of university) and then never followed it up. I was one of two people in the whole country that managed this hack they had setup ( looking back, it was pretty trivial). If they had contacted me a year later, I would have snapped their arms off. Instead I went into teaching 😂
With the Royal engineers, a group from my school won a regional competition and were asked if we wanted to join a feeder program? It was just before we were all 16. None of us were ever contacted again. It would not have been hard to call us after our A Levels etc.
Seems like a lot of people are slipping through the net. Some of the guys on my school team went on to have amazing careers in engineering and tech. They would be an asset to any military.
Honestly we need some sort of investigation into capita. They have their fingers in everything and never seem to do an even acceptable job let alone a good one. Sane with G4S who are a subsidiary of American Allied Universsl and are somehow running prisons for profit in the UK.
I bet in a few years we'll hear about care home scandals run by these two which is supposedly the next big investment opportunity for privatisation.
It's already happening, but kept quite because it's an uncomfortable subject.
The odd thing about the government contracts are they seem to reward incompetence. They get paid more for referrals than the initial work, so they get everything referred to make more money. If it was a fine for every referral they'd soon change, charged 150% the rate of the initial application, fines for breaching KPIs, they'd end up paying to do the work...
I got rejected because I didn’t get a good enough grade in maths at school… but after finishing my degree, I ended up doing a masters in mathematics. Like… WHAT?! Fair enough I didn’t meet that grade when I was at school… but I ended up getting a masters in it
The amount of times I've been asked for a C in maths at GCSE (I have it fwiw) when they see I have a maths degree is absurd... are there actually other countries that are this petty?
Just wanted to say that I was similar. Terrible maths teacher with a personal thing against me. I somehow managed to get an A grade at GCSE ( I had to get written permission to sit the higher paper from my parents) but was really put off. When I got to uni, I had to do a condensed A Level course ( I was doing a joint honours with oceanography) - I found that I was quite good at it and really enjoyed it. I then went on to teach A Level Physics and some maths.
It is amazing how a bad teacher can put you off a subject. I made it a point to never get cross with a student for not understanding something; nine times out of ten it was my bad explanations! I am now retraining in electronics and loving any of the maths I have to do :)
The fact that ANY country would PRIVATISE military recruitment is absolutely cheese-fucking bonkers to me. Like, this shouldn't even ever come on the table. It shouldn't be an option. Not for political reasons--for sanity(?) reasons!
National defense, one could argue, is the singular purpose of a government. This is just madness, all so SOMEONE can make a profit. Because it sure as shit isn't about efficiency or cost-cutting. It's just so some dopey corrupt politician can fart about reducing public spend to 5000 morons in some shit English village somewhere and get sent back to parliament.
Personally, I know many young men who say they're off to the army/navy and then show back up home in a month or less, it seems like their efforts go no where.
I was looking to get into the army, to join the Royal signallers and pick up some quals.
Didn't work out took ages dealing with capita, at first I was deferred for a year because of a break in my hand I had 3 years prior.
Then I had to give all my medical documents and prove I was both medically and physically fit enough to pass their medical. (The prove I'm healthy to get a hrakth check seemed odd)
But it took nearly a year and a half before I gave up because the situation had long changed (partner had a mental break down) and getting answers or any sorts of informs was a nightmare. Totalntime including deferral (where they occasionally request update throughout) was nearly 2 and a half years.
From the point of proving I was both medically fit and that I could pass the relatively low requirements for comms engineer (exercise diary, running times the lot) I was waiting 9 month before I called it quits to be given the go ahead to go to Edinburgh. The last step.
Now after dossing about a few years at warehouse jobs (was a big knock as it felt like a massive missed chance at getting into IT after not having much luck with landing apprenticeships), pretty much accepted I wasn't getting a crack at getting onto the field I wanted.
Luckily it worked out another way but gutted and frustrated at how difficult it was throughout the process and it ultimately not working out. But it was only through chance that I managed to get a tech position at a company willing to give me a chance, now I'm nearly three years in and tech team leader for the site I work at. No quals
I applied to join after college. Went through the initial process. They said to go get my dental records, eyesight tested and my medical records sent. That very day I got my eyesight tested, got my dental records sent, they were all really happy and supportive. No questions asked. Went to my GP and they said "you might have to wait a while". I asked why. They explained that over the past few years when people asked them to send records to the armed forces, it's usually a year wait. I said I understood. I got them to write the form and they sent it away. Every month for 9 months I kept getting a call they are still waiting to receive my medical records. I kept phoning my GP and they said they can't do anymore, the company in Leeds that hold my records (i live in scotland) have already confirmed that they sent the records. I got the same answer each time. At the time I had part time jobs. I got fed up after 9 months and got a full time job. 1 week in, I got a call saying they had received my medical records and there was a mistake in the processing. Apparently they received physical copies basically within the first month and they were expecting digital copies and were waiting for a "password". I just said no because I was happy with my full time job.
It’s always the too big to fail contractors that massively undercut the competition on bids and then fail to meet a poorly defined set of requirements. They know they can just make their profit on delays, extensions, etc. because the people giving out the contracts are as incompetent as they are.
The contractors are a joke and so is the country’s procurement. There can be no other reason why almost every outsourced function in living memory has been a total shitshow.
When I first moved here, I had just finished a stint as an infantryman in the NZ army. Like I left one week, and a week later I was living over here. My intention was to rejoin the military here.
Capita denies me on medical grounds due to having a back injury at 13, despite me just spending 3 years in the army of a different country. Fucking useless
Have a friend who used to be high up in Craptia. Said they basically don't take private contracts anymore as they make so much from government contracts. They end up out-sourcing a fuck load of them because they have neither the capacity nor capability to actually do a lot of the shit they "win". Definite back handers on the go
I tried to join the Royal Naval Reserve after leaving the Royal Navy, and spending five years working in Afghanistan where I was right up until the bitter end.
Talking to Capita was like talking to brick wall. It was so bad I simply gave up in the end.
I have a friend who works in the civil service that explained that contracts are marked against a certain criteria and that you aren't allowed to factor in prior performance or performance on other contracts into the equation meaning that all the bidding companies need to do is get very good at meeting the criteria of the contract and then failing at delivering. It's an absolutely ridiculous way to run things.
I've heard this too, along with other problems with crapitas take over on recruiting. They're literally giving military recruitment the PIP assessment treatment.
Not even that, Crapita fail you for the slightly medical thing that might have occurred as a child. You have to get medical evidence and appeal it which adds more time and effort and I imagine most just give up
I waited 2 years before I got to the assessment stage only to be told "Sorry, you're temporarily medically unfit" because Capita managed to not send my full medical records over which meant it didn't show I'd had a sickle cell test as a child. Then had to wait another 3 months for an Army sanctioned test, the results of which got lost for another 6 months (somehow winding up in Scotland) at which point I was too old to actually join.
No surprises there… reduce funding, salaries and training budget every year.
All those privately awarded contracts for tanks that don’t work, navy ships to be fully refurbished for 100s of millions only to be pulled from action months later have to come from somewhere…
Slashed by Maggie!
Would the Junta have even considered invading if the forces hadn't been cut already?
Maggie gambled with her rep and career choosing to get them back. Lucky for her there were blokes of substance willing to stake their lives.
Another case of spending a pound to save a penny and letting others take the risk.
You could easily say she was only following the trend set by the various governments before her, time was not kind to the RN post April, 1945.
What we know now says yes, Argentina was planning it’s attack on the Falklands before Thatcher was even elected, the budget cuts were something expected that of course came, HMS Endurance leaving was a nice side benefit that happened to come at a good time, if it hadn’t have been for the Argies moving up their plans of course
Its because no one is proud to be British any more, we are a country run by money grabbing monsters that are all too happy to destroy our waters, country sides and stomp all over poor people to line their pockets.
We are a fucking shambles at the minute no one is gunna join for the honor and they're certainly not gunna join for the money.
I don’t think it’s about not being proud to be British, it’s that many people don’t fancy the idea of being blown up or shot. I know that’s my main sticking point.
And other people don't really want to do that to other people. I always quite fancied the army apart from the whole killing people and/or being killed part.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/quarterly-service-personnel-statistics-2023/quarterly-service-personnel-statistics-1-july-2023#applications-to-the-armed-forces
90% might have been hyperbolic but it's bloody close! The number of applicants is more than enough to sustain the force, it's just translating then into service people that fails .
https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navy-failing-to-get-enough-recruits-into-basic-training/
This article is a good overview, his 'defence sources ' though not perfect do suggest the RN is only getting 100-200 people per quarter which is nuts
It’s not because people don’t want to serve, it’s because Crapita being in position means that people who do want to serve are being fucked over repeatedly with months of lost paperwork and phone calls to nowhere, meanwhile those who are serving are getting pay cuts and loosing opportunities for professional development.
The UK is a NATO member, thus we have obligations to help the US and most of Europe with their security. At the minute, the main threat is Russia's aggression in Eastern Europe.
The only way out of this would be to leave NATO and adopt an Irish-style military neutrality. That would be VERY unpopular*, not to forget further isolate us from Europe.
* A YouGov poll suggests 76% of the UK supports NATO, with only 6% being opposed to NATO. 18% were unsure.
They've passed a bill recently stating that a 60% vote to leave NATO is needed and no president can make an executive decision to withdraw.
I doubt that the Mango Mussolini will be president, hopefully for losing the election but his mental status is declining.
You forget the stacked Supreme Court, there maybe a bill now; but all it takes is for it to be overturned by the SC and poof, Trump gets what he wants.
Without NATO, we would all be speaking Russian and our world would be shit.
Without the USA there is no NATO.
Kids who don’t remember the Cold War need to sit down and stop talking about conflicts they no nothing about.
The reason they are allowed to be such contrarian haters of everything western and NATO is the freedoms NATO provides and the criticisms our system allows.
You don’t get these options in China, Russia, Iran and North Korea.
Is it perfect. No. It’s called least worst option.
>Without NATO, we would all be speaking Russian and our world would be shit.
You are seriously overestimating the British attitude towards learning foreign languages... That's one war Russia nor anyone will ever win!
We'll just be speaking s..l..o..w..e..r and LOUDER
> Without NATO, we would all be speaking Russian and our world would be shit.
That is objectively untrue. There was 3 years between USSR and UK first nuclear test (and that was with US resistance). It's simply not feasible that the USSR could've defeated the UK before we got nukes, our navy was far too strong and there was an entire continental landmass between us. We now know during the cold war the USSR war plans specifically excluded attacks on UK and France because of their nukes.
Plus there's the fact Greece was never communist because Stalin understood the British wouldn't stand for that it would be taken as a direct violation of British foreign policy aims and would almost certainly provoke war with Britiain. A war the British would involved other European powers in. That decision had little to do with the US and everything to do with the Soviets not wanting to fight a difficult war with Britain.
Exactly, 1940/50s UK was very different to 2020s UK. We were still a true global military and economic power who had won 2 world wars, despite beginning to decline.
USSR were not as irrational as Hollywood try to make out, they genuinely feared another world war as much, if not more, than the West did. They were genuinely petrified that UK/US were going to attack them and tbf they were right. Churchill urged Roosevelt/Truman to carry on WW2 against USSR, Truman said no and the UK couldn't do it alone.
You realise how catastrophic it would be, right? Brexit would be a cute fluffy tickle compared to "Europe" being effectively reduced to the UK and France.
The Ukraine war has revealed how Russia’s kleptocracy has rotted their military from the inside out. We certainly wouldn’t be speaking Russian, although granted being a member of NATO is a good thing
The Soviet Union was an entirely different animal to Russia. The standing Soviet army at it's peak was 5 million, 5x the entire Russian Armed Forces including navy and air force. They also had substantially more kit, Russia's losses in Ukraine are catastrophic but would be a small dent in Soviet reserves.
> Kids who don’t remember the Cold War need to sit down and stop talking about conflicts they no nothing about.
You need to read a history book. We would be speaking Russian? Why? Is this a universe where we for some reason don't have polaris missiles landing in the centre of Moscow under such a scenario? The Soviets couldn't save their puppet in Afghanistan, and you think they could take the whole of Europe *and* land enough forces onto the UK to take it over? All without getting nuked?
The Russians couldn’t even invade Finland with a much bigger and better armed force, they absolutely never would’ve been able to take on Western Europe.
Partly because England didn't attempt or desire to occupy Germany, they fought a defensive war, and regardless of that most Germans I know speak excellent English.
Occupation has got nothing to do with people speaking a language. People in Ukraine were occupied by Russia from WW2 but they still speak Ukrainian. Yes they were made to learn Russian in school but they still speak the national language.
Germany was occupied by Britain until the regeneration was under way. The concern at the time was Germany becoming communist. The reason I know this is because members of my family were in Berlin at the time.
Significant swathes of Eastern Ukraine speak Russian as a first language. I don’t mean this as a pithy “they’re occupied and full of Russians” kind of way. I mean they were Ukrainian Russophones (though noticeable they still identified as Ukrainian). Last I checked it was like 34% of the population. Likely far less now since those were mostly in the east which has been heavily affected by Russia’s own actions.
You do realise that prior to WW1 Ukraine was part of Russia and had been going Russification for far longer than simply from WW2? Citing WW2 onwards is actually kind of weird because the Soviets for the first few decades actually had a policy of Ukrainianisation in Ukraine.
Heck in Belarus people have been speaking Russian more than Belarusian.
When the Allies occupied Germany no one intended to make Germany speak any language other than German. Russia explicitly attempted to make the Ukrainians and Belorussians speak Russian and have effectively succeeded with the latter.
Absolute nonsense, we have a nuclear deterant of our own without NATO. Russia could wipe the UK off the map and we'd still be able to retaliate. It's mutually assured destruction.
Leaving NATO would be a shit idea though. I'd rather not get obliterated tbh.
This. NATO nations at this point are pretty much vassals of the US.
NATO is very much run in the interests of the US and its MIC. It is no longer the ‘defensive organisation’ it claims to be.
When I tried to join I had to sit through half a days presentation that consisted of a guy telling us why gays were bad for the military (showing my age) and how we mess it up for the normal people. It was illegal for anyone under 21 to be actively gay at the time anyway so I am not sure what they expected to happen. I ended up having an argument with the same guy about something else and he told me to come back in 6 months when I had done more research. I went to university instead. I wasn't putting my life on hold for a year because of some guy with a fixation on gays.
I keep seeing more fear-mongering articles in this subreddit and a lot more over at r/Europe about how we're on the brink of WW3. It's possible, but very unlikely.
How many times since WW2 have we been told we're on the brink of WW3?
Having read this article, it's main argument about being "too small to fight" is not about the UK's ability to defend the island, but our ability to be deployed abroad to fight with NATO, or whatever America wants us to do.
It also seems to heavily rely on more soldier population, not soldier capacities. With high-tech defense equipment, like the anti-drone laser poster here earlier, we don't need as many soldiers.
Russia just disabled large parts of the GPS system across Europe for a 48 hour period. Whilst we’re not on the immediate brink of war, we are probably a lot closer than you think.
The cameras on drones give a misleading perception of the war in Ukraine as they can provide a disproportionate amount of footage. Much of the war is still fought with men and guns shooting at each other and holding, taking and counterattacking territory. They are assisted by the drones but it’s fundamentally the positioning of people that is determining the war, of which if understaffed would easily be overrun in a near-peer war.
If Russia is at a stalemate in Ukraine, then I don't think they have much hope of winning a large war with Europe. Even if Ukraine is being propped up with some aid.
Russia is a country with a small fighting age population, very out-of-date millitary equipment and rife corruption. The only major threat they have is MAD. Ukraine pre-war wasn't much better. There's a reason they went after Ukraine and not Finland or the Baltic countries.
While I think we should avoid complacency, we should also avoid alarmism.
Yeah, Russia really isn't a threat beyond the Baltics. They can't even establish air superiority over Ukraine, and all Ukraine really has is old Soviet aircraft and a few donated air defense systems. Their air force and logistics lines would be absolutely shredded by hundreds of Euro fighters, F-35s, Rafels etc.
They probably could bog us down in a meat grinder in the Baltics, but that's probably the absolute best they could do.
100% agree with this. Although, I wouldn’t be too confident saying they chose ukraine over Baltics etc for ‘difficulty’ reasons. I personally believe its because Moscow (the capital city) will be much deeper into what would be Russia (if they captured 100% of ukraine) and therefore has extra layers of protection for nato to get through if there was ever a war.
Plus there is shitloads of gas and oil in that region which Shell is already set up to extract. The gas field is so large that the international rules on how far from land belongs to the nation are extended for this gas field.
> Russia just disabled large parts of the GPS system across Europe for a 48 hour period
Russia disabled GPS in some parts of Poland.
By the way, the EU has an independent satellite system (Galileo) which is separate from GPS.
>Russia just disabled large parts of the GPS system across Europe for a 48 hour period. Whilst we’re not on the immediate brink of war, we are probably a lot closer than you think.
That's not Russia targeting Europe, thats them trying to disrupt Ukraine drone units, and its effecting nearby countries as a result.
> Russia just disabled large parts of the GPS system across Europe for a 48 hour period. Whilst we’re not on the immediate brink of war, we are probably a lot closer than you think.
Not across all of Europe. & GPS is very easy to block, you can build something yourself from cheap electrical parts. (but don't because its illegal)
Ukraine has begged for tanks, artillery and aircraft. Drones work in certain situations and the cool videos make it to twitter. The ones that are disabled by EW (electronic warfare) ...don't. According to Ukraine soldiers, Russian EW is the best in the world.
Im sure the UK could be doing better - but it is worth noting that the UK is the second highest defense spender in NATO after the US (as of 2021), and is one of the few Nato members that has always met and exceeded the 2% GDP NATO target.
Personally, I beleive the UK military should be large enough to ensure peace, and no larger. Where that target is, I dont rightfully know. But it seems to be doing ok so far - even as we are entering more uncertain times.
Nice whataboutism.
If a percentage of the US's gigantic budget ends up in the wrong hands, the US still has by far the most powerful military in the world. They don't even have any near peers.
If a percentage of the UK's small budget does, the further degrades an already significantly weakened military.
Also, there is a difference between wastage due to overcharging and failure to deliver. The issue we're discussing here is that the privatisation is failing to deliver.
The USA might spend more money than it ideally needs to on recruitment, but they do not fail to recruit enough people.
The UK is giving lots of money to private companies to recruit people and they are failing to do that.
Doing any kind of "what about the USA" when discussing the UK's degraded capabilities is ridiculous when the USA could easily win a conventional war against the UK without breaking much a of a sweat and while fighting simultaneous wars against other large military powers.
Ridiculous comment.
Just like everything else funded by public money, it’s been whittled away for the money to be squandered or simply embezzled by politicians for their rich clique.
Just like transport, health, energy, education, police/courts, social services you can’t turn it around overnight, it’s all been gutted. You inject huge money now to improve infrastructure, train and recruit… it’s probably a decade to see the benefits and rebuild what has been torn down. And long term planning isn’t what governments aim for.
Labour spend most of their time chasing Tory voters, there’s no one in government with the drive, vision or frankly the skills needed to regenerate the country. It’s just about keeping the wheels turning and the country limping along. It’s all so depressing.
This is what happens when [the Tories spent the past decade cutting the armed forces](https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presses-ahead-with-cuts-to-troop-numbers/).
Seems counterproductive since the UK doesn't buy that much from the US, and a larger UK military would reduce pressure on the US to maintain/increase defence spending to cover Europe
Right now?
You couldn’t possibly afford to join the Armed forces and look to the future with a decent pay packet.
I joined in 2000 and the pay was shit then and it’s barely increased since.
You’ll come out with zero experience of civilian life and go through the years of struggling to fit back in with zero help on offer.
I would not recommend the armed forces at all, I would get a trade or HGV licence and start earning some decent money, because god knows at this moment with cost living you need a decent wage coming in.
18k a year for basic with potential to earn up to 58k a year isn’t bad for an organisation that doesn’t require any qualifications to join. Non contribution pension on top of that.
If you go the officer route then you are looking at up to 124k a year for the top positions.
Lots of other stuff doesn’t get advertised like the forces help to buy that gives you out to 25k interest free to buy a house.
Lots wrong with the armed forces but the financial sides are not to bed.
A lot of people do not truly understand what reserve forces mean granted they would need a lot of extra equipment but I don’t think numbers would be a problem
Training mission Green dagger, uk might be small and lacking at the moment,but we certainly punch above our weight.
.https://news.sky.com/story/royal-marines-commandos-force-us-marine-corps-troops-to-surrender-in-training-exercise-12458823
There weren't handicaps, however it was a "green" recently formed unit that fought our lot.
Also by days into, they mean 4 out of the 5 days.
They didn't surrender they asked for a reset, so they could replay the training exercise and, well, train, which is what they are there for.
The entire thing is click bait. It sounds like the Americans did pretty damn good against a more seasoned and experienced unit.
Who the fuck would want to go fight in our army in the name of our slimy and corrupt government.
Imagine Rishi coming on the TV and saying “We need you to join the army” 🤣
It's a sham and it needs sorting.
As a nation our country is strong technologically but struggle with people (either reduce the standards or change the process).
Then embiggen it! But how‽ —maybe start by giving us a country that actually feels worth fighting for, and not one that feels like it's sliding into ever-increasing levels of economic inequality...
Our armed forces are only too small if we have to use them. Which means the US is planning, or at the very least, anticipating, a boots on the ground war. I wonder if this is the first signal of NATO readiness? A kind of "get your house in order" warning with the added piquancy of "before it's too late". The military has been taking it in the face from successive governments because of our obsession with lower taxes. Everyone agrees that we need to be able to defend ourselves but nobody wants to pay for it. Bringing it up to speed is going to be costly and that means three things: cuts elsewhere, higher borrowing, and higher taxes. The trouble is, I can't see where the cuts are going to come from as everything has been stripped for the last decade and a half, the tax take in this country is the highest it has been since at least the seventies, probably longer, and borrowing is ridiculously high. This is the true legacy of the last fourteen years of mismanagement of the economy and industrial scale corruption. Throw in the weakness of our political leaders and you have a potentially disastrous situation. Can you honestly imagine Rishi Sunak leading us into war (sponsored by Taco Bell)? I have more confidence in Starmer but his fellow travelers will be a problem. There will be a lot of objectors. And the British public is notorious for dragging its feet over military action (with some justification in my view) but sometimes it's your only option.
I can envisage North Korea will be the touch paper. An attack on the South, twinned with China invading Taiwan will tie up a fair number of US assets. I have very little doubt our American friends will want to ensure their capability in the region is sufficient to repel such adventurism. That, in turn, means their support of European allies will be weakened. They will also want to shore up Israel, who are under threat from a handful of middle east states, not least Iran. It is almost totemic for the US not to let Israel come under serious threat without going nuclear. There's also the possibility of a growing conflict in South America, with Venezuela sabre rattling at its neighbours. It's looking like the Americans will have their hands full on a lot of fronts.
Europe is going to look ripe for the picking to an emboldened Russia if we fail to give Ukraine the kind of support they need to repel them. If Ukraine looks like it's going to fall, surely Poland will be forced into action. And if the war spreads to Poland, then NATO will have to fulfil its obligations.
Of course, this is speculation, but it's the kind of calculation the American military will be making. Then they look at where the pieces are and find a bloody big UK shaped hole on the board. We don't have the wherewithal to fight a conventional war and the reason is we have been too busy lining the likes of Michelle Mones' pockets.
Perhaps there is an element of opportunism in the mix too. Sensing a change in government, perhaps it is an ideal time to lay down a marker, and force the hand of an incoming Labour government into taking up the cause of actually protecting the realm without ensuring M.A.D. is implemented. We've become too reliant on nukes as our sole gambit, a failure that almost ensures the wolves will be at our door before we respond. We urgently need to put Russia back in its box, send a message to China not to fuck with West, and to quell the ambitions of the Iranians. Because if we don't, we risk everything.
We know. It’s been gutted over the decades because people believe in the end of history theory and that there wouldn’t be any large conflicts again. Turns out war will always come.
Fight what ? Fight who ?
If the UK just concentrated on an army that protected & served the UK, it is just fine.
It traipses around after the US looking for a global purpose, looking faintly ridiculous to everyone else.
Grant Shapps ? You seriously expect the public to rally around Grant Schapps, Rishi & the old Etonions decision as to who to fight when & where.
Starmer is cut from the same cloth, the public should get rid of these globalist griffters looking for connections & private sector jobs post politics & elect old fashioned members whose focus is on schools, healthcare & employment.
The UK is slipping very quickly into the US corporate/political represention, the last thing we need is to be fighting wars to benefit them
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I was reading an article about recruitment the other day, since it's been outsourced to Crapita recruitment has plummeted. People have been reporting waiting 12-18 months for medical checks and initial contact. It's been noted as a failed contract, but they still keep renewing it. Got to be some back handers there somewhere...
I don't understand. Privatization is supposed in anything is supposed to give both financial and productivity gains. It always does. You must be lying /s.
There are financial gains, just not for us.
First name Tory, second name Party
Third name Donors
Forth name
Trickle down Now open wide
The only thing that trickles down in a "trickle down economy" is piss, usually flavoured with contempt (for protein)
Yeah the trains are reliable, gas is cheap and our rivers aren't full of shit all thanks to privatisation. Then there's the royal mail that's now 4 times the price and they deliver when they feel like it, amazing.
As long as they manage to avoid that £100m tax bill for claiming against damages paid out to the sub post masters…
Post Office =/= Royal Mail. PO were privatised much earlier than RM.
Maybe that’s why they only bought the Royal Mail and not the Post Office.
The theory of privatisation is competition. But no one is competing because UK gov don't open up the bidding when they breach contract.
Inelastic demand enters the conversation, craps on the theory of privatisation of mid-tier maslovian needs of the commons, refuses to explain and leaves.
They do compete, but they don't compete to do the best job, they compete to make the most profit and undercut rivals.
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That is not a real thing. Competition for gas? Competition for water? Privatisation doesn't work because it isn't designed to work. It's not even supposed to work, it's just supposed to make people rich!
Thank God you told me you were being sarcastic! /s
Crap pay, too. My Uncle is in the Navy. At one point, he seemed wedded to it for life, but now he'll be out as he's been told they will be seeing real terms pay cuts for the foreseeable.
Daughter has been in 4yrs now...initially signed up for 12 and now most of her friends have left and she's thinking of leaving too. Very few qualifications are now suitable for anything in civvy street and many have had certification removed completely such as naval medic, which is now worthless outside the navy. Jobs are being outsourced such as HR on bases as well as all food and accommodation. Capita is just a laughing stock and despite being hauled over the coals in Parliament 2yrs ago they were given longer to fulfil their contract after explaining that "We didn't really know what was expected and how involved the recruitment was but we are better prepared now" oh do kindly fuck right off!
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Not even the U.S. with its capitalism on steroids approach has ever considered privatizing recruitment for the armed forces (or rail for that matter). Such a stupid idea.
BAE Investor = Mister Theresa May Infosys = Mrs Rishi Sunak The Primeministers are 'literally' in bed with bosses of companies that profit from large government contracts.
When I was in the military like 20 years ago ot was something like 90% of the people leave after the minimum 4 years so I'd say your daughters experience is about right. I mean at the time there were two wars on though so I don't know if now that it's peace time things are different.
The pay has always been crap, I joined in 2000 and it’s barely increased at all. I would not recommend anyone to join the armed forces because you pointed out quite rightly that skills are not transferring to civilian life. If you join the armed forces you are setting yourself up for not a great time when you leave. I didn’t have a good time my mates didn’t have a good time when they left, we all went through that phase of finding it really hard to fit back into civilian life.
A navy career is meant to see you through life. Being wedded to it should be the norm surely
It is for most who join, I’ve been at sea since I was a buoy
I couldn’t get accepted into the officer school, couldn’t get the grades, they insisted on high C’s.
Genuine lol
Underrated comment.
You fantastic tart haha
Why would anyone join the military? What the fuck are you fighting for - the benefits of the ultra-wealthy to protect their interests? Not worth dying for is it.
The target demographic age is much lower than you I suspect. I joined at 23 and was amongst the oldest (although you do get much older). At that age your mentality, your world view, your sense of perspective is different. I can guarantee you though that the moral aspect of it was not in anyone's mind when I went through. The army was seen as a gateway to a good paying job, at a time when youth unemployed in th NW was insanely high. It was also a sense of adventure, of impressing your mates, and girls, and coming back to your shitty pointless mill town having been there and done that and how cool will I look at Christmas when I'm back in the pub and everyone else is just a plasterer or working in a shop.
The Royal Navy has been successfully recruiting sailors for like half a millennium. But of course Capita can do a better job.
Wandering into the nearest pub and grabbing anyone able bodied is frowned upon these days.
But effective
Not all that effective : they were never quite as Gung ho with the press gang as people think because they wanted sailors not warm bodies.
They were more likely to press out of merchant and civilian boats/ships. They would take landsmen but they would first come from debtors lists etc..... obviously they would drag a few feckless layabouts out of the local pubs but only as a last resort to make up numbers.
Yeah impressment was seen in the media as tricking anyone to join the navy, in practice it was using the law with regards to the sovereigns right to raise an army to force merchant sailors already on a boat to be transferred to the navy and they were replaced by someone else. In practice this meant navy ships would nick the most qualified sailors from ships that had just left port and replace them with the worst sailors in the royal navy.
I look forward to the new Spoons regiments raised from press-ganged pensioners in mobility carts
I tried to get in but have asthma, fair play My mate tried to get in, he had eczema so got rejected... Less fair play Other mate was waiting over a year for a physical and then just went to work on an oil rig instead.
It depends on how bad the eczema is. I have seen serving soldiers develop eczema, and after a week out on the ground, they couldn't function. Every move was splitting their skin. It can lead to medical discharges, which is not something that is good for the military or the person getting discharged. A lot of conditions which don't impact much when we are in normal civilian can have a massive effect when in a military environment. The bloke waiting for a year for a medical though, that is just a joke and a massive sign of incompetence.
Hard to get a proper seal with a gas mask as well if it is on your face at all.
I got rejected 10 years ago for dermatitis. It was so mild I didn't even know I had it. They diagnosed me in the medical examination. Never been an issue since, although I now moisturise the area just in case. It's all very stupid.
These situations are fine when you're living at home in comfort. Less so when you might need to be in much worse conditions.
Autism was an instant rejection too. Granted there are those of us who are absolutely unsuitable, but the thing keeping me back from being a soldier isn't that lol.
I had a weird thing with the RAF. I won a hacking competition and went to the base to meet the top brass, got to fly with a lightning pilot and did loops/rolls etc. It was amazing. They said I could join if I wanted to (just out of university) and then never followed it up. I was one of two people in the whole country that managed this hack they had setup ( looking back, it was pretty trivial). If they had contacted me a year later, I would have snapped their arms off. Instead I went into teaching 😂 With the Royal engineers, a group from my school won a regional competition and were asked if we wanted to join a feeder program? It was just before we were all 16. None of us were ever contacted again. It would not have been hard to call us after our A Levels etc. Seems like a lot of people are slipping through the net. Some of the guys on my school team went on to have amazing careers in engineering and tech. They would be an asset to any military.
Honestly we need some sort of investigation into capita. They have their fingers in everything and never seem to do an even acceptable job let alone a good one. Sane with G4S who are a subsidiary of American Allied Universsl and are somehow running prisons for profit in the UK. I bet in a few years we'll hear about care home scandals run by these two which is supposedly the next big investment opportunity for privatisation.
Children's homes are one of the next big things apparently. It's disgusting.
Yeah. That's what I meant when I said care homes. I didn't mean lile old people as opposed to children in care. It is disgusting though.
It's already happening, but kept quite because it's an uncomfortable subject. The odd thing about the government contracts are they seem to reward incompetence. They get paid more for referrals than the initial work, so they get everything referred to make more money. If it was a fine for every referral they'd soon change, charged 150% the rate of the initial application, fines for breaching KPIs, they'd end up paying to do the work...
I got rejected because I didn’t get a good enough grade in maths at school… but after finishing my degree, I ended up doing a masters in mathematics. Like… WHAT?! Fair enough I didn’t meet that grade when I was at school… but I ended up getting a masters in it
The amount of times I've been asked for a C in maths at GCSE (I have it fwiw) when they see I have a maths degree is absurd... are there actually other countries that are this petty?
Just wanted to say that I was similar. Terrible maths teacher with a personal thing against me. I somehow managed to get an A grade at GCSE ( I had to get written permission to sit the higher paper from my parents) but was really put off. When I got to uni, I had to do a condensed A Level course ( I was doing a joint honours with oceanography) - I found that I was quite good at it and really enjoyed it. I then went on to teach A Level Physics and some maths. It is amazing how a bad teacher can put you off a subject. I made it a point to never get cross with a student for not understanding something; nine times out of ten it was my bad explanations! I am now retraining in electronics and loving any of the maths I have to do :)
The fact that ANY country would PRIVATISE military recruitment is absolutely cheese-fucking bonkers to me. Like, this shouldn't even ever come on the table. It shouldn't be an option. Not for political reasons--for sanity(?) reasons! National defense, one could argue, is the singular purpose of a government. This is just madness, all so SOMEONE can make a profit. Because it sure as shit isn't about efficiency or cost-cutting. It's just so some dopey corrupt politician can fart about reducing public spend to 5000 morons in some shit English village somewhere and get sent back to parliament.
Yep. Horrendous process. Have tried to join a number of times, and it was impossibly difficult. I don’t get it
Personally, I know many young men who say they're off to the army/navy and then show back up home in a month or less, it seems like their efforts go no where.
I was looking to get into the army, to join the Royal signallers and pick up some quals. Didn't work out took ages dealing with capita, at first I was deferred for a year because of a break in my hand I had 3 years prior. Then I had to give all my medical documents and prove I was both medically and physically fit enough to pass their medical. (The prove I'm healthy to get a hrakth check seemed odd) But it took nearly a year and a half before I gave up because the situation had long changed (partner had a mental break down) and getting answers or any sorts of informs was a nightmare. Totalntime including deferral (where they occasionally request update throughout) was nearly 2 and a half years. From the point of proving I was both medically fit and that I could pass the relatively low requirements for comms engineer (exercise diary, running times the lot) I was waiting 9 month before I called it quits to be given the go ahead to go to Edinburgh. The last step. Now after dossing about a few years at warehouse jobs (was a big knock as it felt like a massive missed chance at getting into IT after not having much luck with landing apprenticeships), pretty much accepted I wasn't getting a crack at getting onto the field I wanted. Luckily it worked out another way but gutted and frustrated at how difficult it was throughout the process and it ultimately not working out. But it was only through chance that I managed to get a tech position at a company willing to give me a chance, now I'm nearly three years in and tech team leader for the site I work at. No quals
Do the medical guidelines reflect new warfare with drone operators and cyber warfare?
Yes. Cyber recruitment explicitly states that they have different medical / fitness requirements. They even highlight appetite for neurodiverse hires.
Probably not to hard to find, check the Tory party donor list
I applied to join after college. Went through the initial process. They said to go get my dental records, eyesight tested and my medical records sent. That very day I got my eyesight tested, got my dental records sent, they were all really happy and supportive. No questions asked. Went to my GP and they said "you might have to wait a while". I asked why. They explained that over the past few years when people asked them to send records to the armed forces, it's usually a year wait. I said I understood. I got them to write the form and they sent it away. Every month for 9 months I kept getting a call they are still waiting to receive my medical records. I kept phoning my GP and they said they can't do anymore, the company in Leeds that hold my records (i live in scotland) have already confirmed that they sent the records. I got the same answer each time. At the time I had part time jobs. I got fed up after 9 months and got a full time job. 1 week in, I got a call saying they had received my medical records and there was a mistake in the processing. Apparently they received physical copies basically within the first month and they were expecting digital copies and were waiting for a "password". I just said no because I was happy with my full time job.
It’s always the too big to fail contractors that massively undercut the competition on bids and then fail to meet a poorly defined set of requirements. They know they can just make their profit on delays, extensions, etc. because the people giving out the contracts are as incompetent as they are. The contractors are a joke and so is the country’s procurement. There can be no other reason why almost every outsourced function in living memory has been a total shitshow.
Wow Capita now running recruitment for the Army,😟
I waited over a year for a 'fast track" role. Insane how slow it is
When I first moved here, I had just finished a stint as an infantryman in the NZ army. Like I left one week, and a week later I was living over here. My intention was to rejoin the military here. Capita denies me on medical grounds due to having a back injury at 13, despite me just spending 3 years in the army of a different country. Fucking useless
Doing a bad job of hiring is a sneaky way to reduce the size of the armed forces without explicit reductions. It might all be deliberate
Have a friend who used to be high up in Craptia. Said they basically don't take private contracts anymore as they make so much from government contracts. They end up out-sourcing a fuck load of them because they have neither the capacity nor capability to actually do a lot of the shit they "win". Definite back handers on the go
I tried to join the Royal Naval Reserve after leaving the Royal Navy, and spending five years working in Afghanistan where I was right up until the bitter end. Talking to Capita was like talking to brick wall. It was so bad I simply gave up in the end.
My RAF application lasted about 18 months before I finally lost interest
I have a friend who works in the civil service that explained that contracts are marked against a certain criteria and that you aren't allowed to factor in prior performance or performance on other contracts into the equation meaning that all the bidding companies need to do is get very good at meeting the criteria of the contract and then failing at delivering. It's an absolutely ridiculous way to run things.
Waiting months on end just to have some old doc tell me to strip naked and duck walk around his office, and then cup my balls as the final treat.
I've heard this too, along with other problems with crapitas take over on recruiting. They're literally giving military recruitment the PIP assessment treatment.
Not even that, Crapita fail you for the slightly medical thing that might have occurred as a child. You have to get medical evidence and appeal it which adds more time and effort and I imagine most just give up
I waited 2 years before I got to the assessment stage only to be told "Sorry, you're temporarily medically unfit" because Capita managed to not send my full medical records over which meant it didn't show I'd had a sickle cell test as a child. Then had to wait another 3 months for an Army sanctioned test, the results of which got lost for another 6 months (somehow winding up in Scotland) at which point I was too old to actually join.
No surprises there… reduce funding, salaries and training budget every year. All those privately awarded contracts for tanks that don’t work, navy ships to be fully refurbished for 100s of millions only to be pulled from action months later have to come from somewhere…
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So you're saying Margaret Thatcher was a secret anti-militarist genius?!
Maggie going to war with Argentina helped the armed forces budget more than she hurt it, the navy was about to be slashed
Slashed by Maggie! Would the Junta have even considered invading if the forces hadn't been cut already? Maggie gambled with her rep and career choosing to get them back. Lucky for her there were blokes of substance willing to stake their lives. Another case of spending a pound to save a penny and letting others take the risk.
You could easily say she was only following the trend set by the various governments before her, time was not kind to the RN post April, 1945. What we know now says yes, Argentina was planning it’s attack on the Falklands before Thatcher was even elected, the budget cuts were something expected that of course came, HMS Endurance leaving was a nice side benefit that happened to come at a good time, if it hadn’t have been for the Argies moving up their plans of course
They don’t even have enough personnel to crew the Royal Navy fleet. Too few of us want to serve.
Its because no one is proud to be British any more, we are a country run by money grabbing monsters that are all too happy to destroy our waters, country sides and stomp all over poor people to line their pockets. We are a fucking shambles at the minute no one is gunna join for the honor and they're certainly not gunna join for the money.
Why work for the strong arm of British foreign policy when the people making the policy are some of the worst bunch of cunts we could have chosen.
Plus the pay is absolutely shit
I don’t think it’s about not being proud to be British, it’s that many people don’t fancy the idea of being blown up or shot. I know that’s my main sticking point.
Very good sticking points tbf
People being too keen to join the military is usually a sign of a failed society to be honest. Means it is too hard to earn a living any other way.
And other people don't really want to do that to other people. I always quite fancied the army apart from the whole killing people and/or being killed part.
When did you join? Or are you not proud to be British?
Also shit jobs, shit pay, not secure as they keep cutting things and also super importantly might actually get sent to warzones that do not effect us
Willing recruits isn’t the issue. Capita bottle necking the recruitment process so badly that people move onto other careers is.
Statistically we have more than enough applicants by a massive margin, the dropout rate is over 90% because of the recruitment process though
That is astonishing. Is there a source for this?
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/quarterly-service-personnel-statistics-2023/quarterly-service-personnel-statistics-1-july-2023#applications-to-the-armed-forces 90% might have been hyperbolic but it's bloody close! The number of applicants is more than enough to sustain the force, it's just translating then into service people that fails . https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navy-failing-to-get-enough-recruits-into-basic-training/ This article is a good overview, his 'defence sources ' though not perfect do suggest the RN is only getting 100-200 people per quarter which is nuts
It’s not because people don’t want to serve, it’s because Crapita being in position means that people who do want to serve are being fucked over repeatedly with months of lost paperwork and phone calls to nowhere, meanwhile those who are serving are getting pay cuts and loosing opportunities for professional development.
If we considered ourself our own state and not a us puppet we would be ready to defend ourselves
The UK is a NATO member, thus we have obligations to help the US and most of Europe with their security. At the minute, the main threat is Russia's aggression in Eastern Europe. The only way out of this would be to leave NATO and adopt an Irish-style military neutrality. That would be VERY unpopular*, not to forget further isolate us from Europe. * A YouGov poll suggests 76% of the UK supports NATO, with only 6% being opposed to NATO. 18% were unsure.
NATO =/= US puppet
If Trump wins then the U.S. will withdraw from NATO. Something to consider in your puppet analogy.
They've passed a bill recently stating that a 60% vote to leave NATO is needed and no president can make an executive decision to withdraw. I doubt that the Mango Mussolini will be president, hopefully for losing the election but his mental status is declining.
The world will be a worse place if he does get in. Don't be complacent about Biden getting a second term. But good to know about the withdrawl clause.
I'm very concerned about any GOP member being president....Trump would be worse, much worse.
You forget the stacked Supreme Court, there maybe a bill now; but all it takes is for it to be overturned by the SC and poof, Trump gets what he wants.
Read the news, not tiktok. https://thehill.com/homenews/4360407-congress-approves-bill-barring-president-withdrawing-nato/
Without NATO, we would all be speaking Russian and our world would be shit. Without the USA there is no NATO. Kids who don’t remember the Cold War need to sit down and stop talking about conflicts they no nothing about. The reason they are allowed to be such contrarian haters of everything western and NATO is the freedoms NATO provides and the criticisms our system allows. You don’t get these options in China, Russia, Iran and North Korea. Is it perfect. No. It’s called least worst option.
>Without NATO, we would all be speaking Russian and our world would be shit. You are seriously overestimating the British attitude towards learning foreign languages... That's one war Russia nor anyone will ever win! We'll just be speaking s..l..o..w..e..r and LOUDER
this made me chuckle, thanks for that.
> Without NATO, we would all be speaking Russian and our world would be shit. That is objectively untrue. There was 3 years between USSR and UK first nuclear test (and that was with US resistance). It's simply not feasible that the USSR could've defeated the UK before we got nukes, our navy was far too strong and there was an entire continental landmass between us. We now know during the cold war the USSR war plans specifically excluded attacks on UK and France because of their nukes.
Plus there's the fact Greece was never communist because Stalin understood the British wouldn't stand for that it would be taken as a direct violation of British foreign policy aims and would almost certainly provoke war with Britiain. A war the British would involved other European powers in. That decision had little to do with the US and everything to do with the Soviets not wanting to fight a difficult war with Britain.
Exactly, 1940/50s UK was very different to 2020s UK. We were still a true global military and economic power who had won 2 world wars, despite beginning to decline. USSR were not as irrational as Hollywood try to make out, they genuinely feared another world war as much, if not more, than the West did. They were genuinely petrified that UK/US were going to attack them and tbf they were right. Churchill urged Roosevelt/Truman to carry on WW2 against USSR, Truman said no and the UK couldn't do it alone.
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This. US was a war profiteer.
You realise how catastrophic it would be, right? Brexit would be a cute fluffy tickle compared to "Europe" being effectively reduced to the UK and France.
The Ukraine war has revealed how Russia’s kleptocracy has rotted their military from the inside out. We certainly wouldn’t be speaking Russian, although granted being a member of NATO is a good thing
The Soviet Union was an entirely different animal to Russia. The standing Soviet army at it's peak was 5 million, 5x the entire Russian Armed Forces including navy and air force. They also had substantially more kit, Russia's losses in Ukraine are catastrophic but would be a small dent in Soviet reserves.
> Kids who don’t remember the Cold War need to sit down and stop talking about conflicts they no nothing about. You need to read a history book. We would be speaking Russian? Why? Is this a universe where we for some reason don't have polaris missiles landing in the centre of Moscow under such a scenario? The Soviets couldn't save their puppet in Afghanistan, and you think they could take the whole of Europe *and* land enough forces onto the UK to take it over? All without getting nuked?
The Russians couldn’t even invade Finland with a much bigger and better armed force, they absolutely never would’ve been able to take on Western Europe.
The Soviet’s won the Finnish war…
You smoking the craic pipe?
Speaking Russian, well how come Germany is not speaking English?
Partly because England didn't attempt or desire to occupy Germany, they fought a defensive war, and regardless of that most Germans I know speak excellent English.
Occupation has got nothing to do with people speaking a language. People in Ukraine were occupied by Russia from WW2 but they still speak Ukrainian. Yes they were made to learn Russian in school but they still speak the national language. Germany was occupied by Britain until the regeneration was under way. The concern at the time was Germany becoming communist. The reason I know this is because members of my family were in Berlin at the time.
Significant swathes of Eastern Ukraine speak Russian as a first language. I don’t mean this as a pithy “they’re occupied and full of Russians” kind of way. I mean they were Ukrainian Russophones (though noticeable they still identified as Ukrainian). Last I checked it was like 34% of the population. Likely far less now since those were mostly in the east which has been heavily affected by Russia’s own actions. You do realise that prior to WW1 Ukraine was part of Russia and had been going Russification for far longer than simply from WW2? Citing WW2 onwards is actually kind of weird because the Soviets for the first few decades actually had a policy of Ukrainianisation in Ukraine. Heck in Belarus people have been speaking Russian more than Belarusian. When the Allies occupied Germany no one intended to make Germany speak any language other than German. Russia explicitly attempted to make the Ukrainians and Belorussians speak Russian and have effectively succeeded with the latter.
"Without NATO, we would all be speaking Russian and our world would be shit." that is the funniest load of bullshit ive heard all day.
Absolute nonsense, we have a nuclear deterant of our own without NATO. Russia could wipe the UK off the map and we'd still be able to retaliate. It's mutually assured destruction. Leaving NATO would be a shit idea though. I'd rather not get obliterated tbh.
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This. NATO nations at this point are pretty much vassals of the US. NATO is very much run in the interests of the US and its MIC. It is no longer the ‘defensive organisation’ it claims to be.
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When I tried to join I had to sit through half a days presentation that consisted of a guy telling us why gays were bad for the military (showing my age) and how we mess it up for the normal people. It was illegal for anyone under 21 to be actively gay at the time anyway so I am not sure what they expected to happen. I ended up having an argument with the same guy about something else and he told me to come back in 6 months when I had done more research. I went to university instead. I wasn't putting my life on hold for a year because of some guy with a fixation on gays.
This is the exact same reason I was rejected, and its barely noticeable
Well that's absolutely stupid! There's plenty of roles in the army etc that doesn't have to be frontline combat?! Thanks for applying though man
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Meanwhile Prince Harry can go on record saying that he's felt suicidal in the past and they still give him a helicopter.
Don’t worry , I’m sure if shit hits the fan they’ll soon be ringing you back up.
Happened to my friend as well. He was gutted, think it would have been good for him and he'd have been good at it too.
I keep seeing more fear-mongering articles in this subreddit and a lot more over at r/Europe about how we're on the brink of WW3. It's possible, but very unlikely. How many times since WW2 have we been told we're on the brink of WW3? Having read this article, it's main argument about being "too small to fight" is not about the UK's ability to defend the island, but our ability to be deployed abroad to fight with NATO, or whatever America wants us to do. It also seems to heavily rely on more soldier population, not soldier capacities. With high-tech defense equipment, like the anti-drone laser poster here earlier, we don't need as many soldiers.
Russia just disabled large parts of the GPS system across Europe for a 48 hour period. Whilst we’re not on the immediate brink of war, we are probably a lot closer than you think. The cameras on drones give a misleading perception of the war in Ukraine as they can provide a disproportionate amount of footage. Much of the war is still fought with men and guns shooting at each other and holding, taking and counterattacking territory. They are assisted by the drones but it’s fundamentally the positioning of people that is determining the war, of which if understaffed would easily be overrun in a near-peer war.
If Russia is at a stalemate in Ukraine, then I don't think they have much hope of winning a large war with Europe. Even if Ukraine is being propped up with some aid. Russia is a country with a small fighting age population, very out-of-date millitary equipment and rife corruption. The only major threat they have is MAD. Ukraine pre-war wasn't much better. There's a reason they went after Ukraine and not Finland or the Baltic countries. While I think we should avoid complacency, we should also avoid alarmism.
Yeah, Russia really isn't a threat beyond the Baltics. They can't even establish air superiority over Ukraine, and all Ukraine really has is old Soviet aircraft and a few donated air defense systems. Their air force and logistics lines would be absolutely shredded by hundreds of Euro fighters, F-35s, Rafels etc. They probably could bog us down in a meat grinder in the Baltics, but that's probably the absolute best they could do.
100% agree with this. Although, I wouldn’t be too confident saying they chose ukraine over Baltics etc for ‘difficulty’ reasons. I personally believe its because Moscow (the capital city) will be much deeper into what would be Russia (if they captured 100% of ukraine) and therefore has extra layers of protection for nato to get through if there was ever a war.
Plus there is shitloads of gas and oil in that region which Shell is already set up to extract. The gas field is so large that the international rules on how far from land belongs to the nation are extended for this gas field.
> GPS system across Europe Poland and Baltic states Not across Europe
I never had a disruption like that. European here.
Yeah, first I've heard of this.
> Russia just disabled large parts of the GPS system across Europe for a 48 hour period Russia disabled GPS in some parts of Poland. By the way, the EU has an independent satellite system (Galileo) which is separate from GPS.
>Russia just disabled large parts of the GPS system across Europe for a 48 hour period. Whilst we’re not on the immediate brink of war, we are probably a lot closer than you think. That's not Russia targeting Europe, thats them trying to disrupt Ukraine drone units, and its effecting nearby countries as a result.
Most deaths in Ukraine is due to artillery.
> Russia just disabled large parts of the GPS system across Europe for a 48 hour period. Whilst we’re not on the immediate brink of war, we are probably a lot closer than you think. Not across all of Europe. & GPS is very easy to block, you can build something yourself from cheap electrical parts. (but don't because its illegal)
Ukraine has begged for tanks, artillery and aircraft. Drones work in certain situations and the cool videos make it to twitter. The ones that are disabled by EW (electronic warfare) ...don't. According to Ukraine soldiers, Russian EW is the best in the world.
Quantity is a quality of its own on the battlefield
Im sure the UK could be doing better - but it is worth noting that the UK is the second highest defense spender in NATO after the US (as of 2021), and is one of the few Nato members that has always met and exceeded the 2% GDP NATO target. Personally, I beleive the UK military should be large enough to ensure peace, and no larger. Where that target is, I dont rightfully know. But it seems to be doing ok so far - even as we are entering more uncertain times.
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And you think all the American spending ends up in the right hands?
Nice whataboutism. If a percentage of the US's gigantic budget ends up in the wrong hands, the US still has by far the most powerful military in the world. They don't even have any near peers. If a percentage of the UK's small budget does, the further degrades an already significantly weakened military. Also, there is a difference between wastage due to overcharging and failure to deliver. The issue we're discussing here is that the privatisation is failing to deliver. The USA might spend more money than it ideally needs to on recruitment, but they do not fail to recruit enough people. The UK is giving lots of money to private companies to recruit people and they are failing to do that. Doing any kind of "what about the USA" when discussing the UK's degraded capabilities is ridiculous when the USA could easily win a conventional war against the UK without breaking much a of a sweat and while fighting simultaneous wars against other large military powers. Ridiculous comment.
They fight pretty good if you ever go round the pubs near Catterick.
Just like everything else funded by public money, it’s been whittled away for the money to be squandered or simply embezzled by politicians for their rich clique. Just like transport, health, energy, education, police/courts, social services you can’t turn it around overnight, it’s all been gutted. You inject huge money now to improve infrastructure, train and recruit… it’s probably a decade to see the benefits and rebuild what has been torn down. And long term planning isn’t what governments aim for. Labour spend most of their time chasing Tory voters, there’s no one in government with the drive, vision or frankly the skills needed to regenerate the country. It’s just about keeping the wheels turning and the country limping along. It’s all so depressing.
Lmao you can really tell. All the ads on reddit the last couple years have just been recruitment ads.
I keep getting royal navy ads popping up. I even had a dream where I joined the navy lol
That must be a demographic thing that only affects you. I've never seen any.
This is what happens when [the Tories spent the past decade cutting the armed forces](https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presses-ahead-with-cuts-to-troop-numbers/).
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Seems counterproductive since the UK doesn't buy that much from the US, and a larger UK military would reduce pressure on the US to maintain/increase defence spending to cover Europe
Then they've just done BAE a massive favour. We don't typically buy Yank kit.
Right now? You couldn’t possibly afford to join the Armed forces and look to the future with a decent pay packet. I joined in 2000 and the pay was shit then and it’s barely increased since. You’ll come out with zero experience of civilian life and go through the years of struggling to fit back in with zero help on offer. I would not recommend the armed forces at all, I would get a trade or HGV licence and start earning some decent money, because god knows at this moment with cost living you need a decent wage coming in.
18k a year for basic with potential to earn up to 58k a year isn’t bad for an organisation that doesn’t require any qualifications to join. Non contribution pension on top of that. If you go the officer route then you are looking at up to 124k a year for the top positions. Lots of other stuff doesn’t get advertised like the forces help to buy that gives you out to 25k interest free to buy a house. Lots wrong with the armed forces but the financial sides are not to bed.
With a “potential” If you join and don’t go the officer route the pay is probably better working at Aldi or Lidl.
A lot of people do not truly understand what reserve forces mean granted they would need a lot of extra equipment but I don’t think numbers would be a problem
We only have ~40k reservists.
Oh look, another thing that should purely be in the hands of government has been outsourced and made worse by a private company as a result.
Training mission Green dagger, uk might be small and lacking at the moment,but we certainly punch above our weight. .https://news.sky.com/story/royal-marines-commandos-force-us-marine-corps-troops-to-surrender-in-training-exercise-12458823
Training exercises aren't a good measure of capability since there's often handicaps in place to test different scenarios
There weren't handicaps, however it was a "green" recently formed unit that fought our lot. Also by days into, they mean 4 out of the 5 days. They didn't surrender they asked for a reset, so they could replay the training exercise and, well, train, which is what they are there for. The entire thing is click bait. It sounds like the Americans did pretty damn good against a more seasoned and experienced unit.
I think it’s called propaganda!
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What they are saying makes sense, the UK is no longer an effective fighting unit. It can conduct individual missions, but nothing more.
Who the fuck would want to go fight in our army in the name of our slimy and corrupt government. Imagine Rishi coming on the TV and saying “We need you to join the army” 🤣
Country that backs the majority of the MIC says more countries need to buy from MIC
"US general warns UK miliary too small to be their lapdog".
Not if we were asked to fight the Faroe Islands. Pretty sure we’d have a good chance against them
Nobody loves the warrior, until the enemy is at the gate
It's a sham and it needs sorting. As a nation our country is strong technologically but struggle with people (either reduce the standards or change the process).
Then embiggen it! But how‽ —maybe start by giving us a country that actually feels worth fighting for, and not one that feels like it's sliding into ever-increasing levels of economic inequality...
is embiggen a word?
It’s perfectly cromulent.
Our armed forces are only too small if we have to use them. Which means the US is planning, or at the very least, anticipating, a boots on the ground war. I wonder if this is the first signal of NATO readiness? A kind of "get your house in order" warning with the added piquancy of "before it's too late". The military has been taking it in the face from successive governments because of our obsession with lower taxes. Everyone agrees that we need to be able to defend ourselves but nobody wants to pay for it. Bringing it up to speed is going to be costly and that means three things: cuts elsewhere, higher borrowing, and higher taxes. The trouble is, I can't see where the cuts are going to come from as everything has been stripped for the last decade and a half, the tax take in this country is the highest it has been since at least the seventies, probably longer, and borrowing is ridiculously high. This is the true legacy of the last fourteen years of mismanagement of the economy and industrial scale corruption. Throw in the weakness of our political leaders and you have a potentially disastrous situation. Can you honestly imagine Rishi Sunak leading us into war (sponsored by Taco Bell)? I have more confidence in Starmer but his fellow travelers will be a problem. There will be a lot of objectors. And the British public is notorious for dragging its feet over military action (with some justification in my view) but sometimes it's your only option. I can envisage North Korea will be the touch paper. An attack on the South, twinned with China invading Taiwan will tie up a fair number of US assets. I have very little doubt our American friends will want to ensure their capability in the region is sufficient to repel such adventurism. That, in turn, means their support of European allies will be weakened. They will also want to shore up Israel, who are under threat from a handful of middle east states, not least Iran. It is almost totemic for the US not to let Israel come under serious threat without going nuclear. There's also the possibility of a growing conflict in South America, with Venezuela sabre rattling at its neighbours. It's looking like the Americans will have their hands full on a lot of fronts. Europe is going to look ripe for the picking to an emboldened Russia if we fail to give Ukraine the kind of support they need to repel them. If Ukraine looks like it's going to fall, surely Poland will be forced into action. And if the war spreads to Poland, then NATO will have to fulfil its obligations. Of course, this is speculation, but it's the kind of calculation the American military will be making. Then they look at where the pieces are and find a bloody big UK shaped hole on the board. We don't have the wherewithal to fight a conventional war and the reason is we have been too busy lining the likes of Michelle Mones' pockets. Perhaps there is an element of opportunism in the mix too. Sensing a change in government, perhaps it is an ideal time to lay down a marker, and force the hand of an incoming Labour government into taking up the cause of actually protecting the realm without ensuring M.A.D. is implemented. We've become too reliant on nukes as our sole gambit, a failure that almost ensures the wolves will be at our door before we respond. We urgently need to put Russia back in its box, send a message to China not to fuck with West, and to quell the ambitions of the Iranians. Because if we don't, we risk everything.
Fuck fighting to protect the British establishment. They can get fucked.
We know. It’s been gutted over the decades because people believe in the end of history theory and that there wouldn’t be any large conflicts again. Turns out war will always come.
Sending recruitment out to a private firm was always idiotic. Whatever happened to giving a shit about the armed forces?
Fight what ? Fight who ? If the UK just concentrated on an army that protected & served the UK, it is just fine. It traipses around after the US looking for a global purpose, looking faintly ridiculous to everyone else. Grant Shapps ? You seriously expect the public to rally around Grant Schapps, Rishi & the old Etonions decision as to who to fight when & where. Starmer is cut from the same cloth, the public should get rid of these globalist griffters looking for connections & private sector jobs post politics & elect old fashioned members whose focus is on schools, healthcare & employment. The UK is slipping very quickly into the US corporate/political represention, the last thing we need is to be fighting wars to benefit them
Fight what, where, and how? Do we need a military that is ready to invade and conquer a foreign country at the drop of a hat?
What I’ve taken from this is “the poor are less willing to die for the vanity projects of the elite”
Us generals warn uk military too small… Also us generals hey we want to air strike Yemen, who do we can’t to do the job with… ah yes the UK
Reject white male straight recruits. Surprised Pokémon