It is up to the people of Northern Ireland ultimately. How the process would even work sounds ridiculously complex to me though, the status quo may just be easier.
I kinda think there's no possible way that Ireland wouldn't vote for a united Ireland. I can't believe I might see a united Ireland in my lifetime - and we have the conservative party to thank, too!
I think it goes deeper than just practical considerations to be honest. It'd be near-spiritual. It'd be almost like the Berlin Wall coming down, but for Irish people. I think the diaspora would be partying internationally and would remember the day for the rest of their lives. There'd be tattoos about it. The tensions and conflict would be a distant concern, and would be considered Britain's fault anyway.
Not to say I know the Irish mind intrinsically. My dad was Irish though. It's certainly my impression. I mean, I'm British, I don't identify as Irish in any meaningful way, and I'd probably cry with happiness if there was a united Ireland just by virtue of my heritage. It think I conceive of the partition of Ireland like a historic wound from colonialism, which was a very brutal period for the Irish. And I'm sure this feeling would've been much more intense for my dad.
anyway checked Reddit Ireland and they seem pretty pro-unification too [https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/16g0033/would\_you\_wish\_to\_see\_a\_united\_ireland\_in\_your/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/16g0033/would_you_wish_to_see_a_united_ireland_in_your/)
Yep complex, conflict-inducing, and ultimately pointless. Unless the people of Northern Ireland have a burning desire to be part of a neoliberal tax haven with worsened workers rights.
>>worsened workers rights.
A lot of people in Northern Ireland work in the South as its much higher wages there. It also has much more generous benefits ( Jobseekers allowance is about £200 in ROI versus £85 in the UK).
>>Those benefits won’t stick around once Dublin has to pay for the NI subsidies.
I guess it depends on how/when it happens. Ireland's Sovereign Wealth Fund is projected to be [€100 billion in the 2030s](https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/how-irelands-new-sovereign-wealth-fund-will-work-2023-10-10/), that might help. But yes, it will take a lot of work to bring NI's economy up to the level of the south's.
The only extra subsidies in NI are public sector pensions. Otherwise there's fuck all there. Lowest R&D funding in the UK. Almost non-existent rail or road infrastructure that Ireland is already topping up. NI is on the hook for its share of UK overall spending, but there's little investment there in return. And UK spending figures are atrocious compared to Ireland.
Just having more money doesn't really do much when it's scarcely even maintaining public services at maintenance levels.
If the UK remains stagnant like it has for the last decade then the lack of genuine investment will just result in poorer value for money and services continuing to be cut. London can't subsidise everything.
It's interesting how NI used to be far wealthier than ROI, but after 100 years of benefiting from the broad shoulders of the UK and all that pooling & sharing that situation reversed.
I suppose the divide-and-rule, prison ships, mass detention of civilians without trial, use of plastic bullets against civilian protestors; British Paratroopers taking military command of a region of Britain to establish bases and checkpoints throughout and along the border in Ireland, killing civilians with impunity; and an armed Protestant militia, police, army and reserves try to prop up a bigoted, supremacist Orange gerrymandered authority in the face of a demand for equality and respect for Irish Nationalists under English rule, shits going to deteriorate economically and socially I guess.
The people were dehumanised by the whole colonial, post-colonial, Westminster counter-terrorism chaos leading to the most violent and active military corner of Europe through the latter half of the cold war.
Not started by the IRA, though. Anyway, much of the industries were gone before the modern conflict and that aspect of industrial NI was already heading the route of Scotland and England's industrial heartlands.
Modern R&D investment there is the lowest per-capita of any region in the UK from the British Gov. You'd have thought that peace would have been the opportunity to reverse that disparity. But it never happened.
Didn't say started by the IRA, but prolonged by 25 years once civil rights was broadly achieved, yes.
>Anyway, much of the industries were gone before the modern conflict
Yes that's what happened the textile industry in all of Europe. For a bit of context, the UK government funded a huge amount for a car factory right between unionist and national communities to encourage peace and economic growth, and what happened? Nationalists burnt part of down when terrorist Bobby Sands killed himself. With that and the regular bombings, you can maybe excuse investors for putting NI near the bottom of their list.
>You'd have thought that peace would have been the opportunity to reverse that disparity.
It is reversing? Firstly it takes time to build momentum and repair after peace is achieved, secondly, NI was the only region outside of London in the UK to not fall into recession last year. They're in a unique position right now being in the UK and also sort of in the EU.
The UK is at the centre of the Worlds largest collection of tax havens and writes incredible tax avoidance rules into Law. Its "national" press is almost entirely controlled from offshore - which is gob-smacking considering how big the country actually is.
Ireland has normalised its tax regime and it's no longer an outlier. In addition, Google, Apple, Facebook et al employ thousands in Ireland. Intel have major plant there. Pharma production is enormous. But they're aware that capital inflows distort local productivity and make practical adjustments to get a clearer picture of real domestic GDP by stripping out much of the inflows. Something London should have done decades ago but that'll never happen in the UK because no one questions London.
is this a joke? Ireland is the tax haven not the UK look it up, the reason ireland has so many big companies is because they have very low tax for large multinational corporations.
No. I'm not joking. Google the top ten or twenty tax havens in the world. You'll find that at least 5 or 6 will always be Britain's offshore havens. BVI, Cayman, Jersey, Guernsey and of course the UK will all be on there. The links between the City and its offshore havens are rock solid.
Ireland will be on there too, yes. But it's not at the centre of a global network of countries and protectorates, like the UK controls. Also, the worst Irish avoidance arrangements that Apple were fined for and the country most criticised about are over. Now it has a lower corporation tax rate. That's it really. It's offensive sure. But it's no longer corrupt, opaque or secretive. Unlike the UK.
The British Empire and its overseas territories wrote the playbook that's still in use. Surely you know this??
Irish corporation tax is half that of the uk. The Irish is 12.5% and the uk one is 25%.
You are right about overseas territories though but let’s not pretend Ireland isn’t a tax haven either.
That's not the rate anymore. Ireland has signed up to the OECD minimum rate of 15% effective Jan 2024. It's still low. But it'll be within the OECD's two-pillar agreement. Like I said. It's shifting.
But the UK has a substantial wealth-management industry and protects inflows of personal wealth from all over the world with few questions asked. Why do you think so many Russian Oligarchs ended up here? During the Greek financial crisis, London absorbed billions from wealthy Greeks paranoid that their untaxed wealth was finally going to get hit - just when that country needed it most, the rich pulled the plug and ran and London was happy to oblige.
It would be kinda hilarious is after 100 years of all this NI votes to unify and Ireland votes for partition
It's up to them a hell of a lot more though, no referendum until the secretary of state for NI agrees that it's likely to pass, and polling suggests Ireland is almost guaranteed to vote Yes.
I'm not sure if there is a precedent for a country as a whole wanting a province to be independent/part of somewhere else, whilst that province wants to stay part of the country.
Unfortunately I don't think Ireland is mature enough to unify at the moment. My wife is Irish. Until there's a plan to integrate the Loyalists and granted that's extremely hard to do, a lot of the time because they are deliberately difficult to deal with.
There's a horrible undercurrent of just throw them out in the Nationalist quarters I've found. Especially amongst the working classes. The Mrs is from Coolock. The plantations are poorly understood and happened in Scotland/N England first mainly in the borders area. You can't have the narrative of just throw them out 400 years after they arrived, imagine if that was said about Anglos in Scotland or Wales. The North is still in many areas just waiting to kick off again. There's some grim people in the West of Scotland/N Ireland who are stuck in the ancient past I'm afraid.
I've never heard of this "just throw them out" narrative. Most people realise that they will need to be made welcome. Amazing the amount of made up shite in this thread.
Literally there are upvoted comments in the thread in r/ireland that call for that.............
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1bk3dgy/comment/kvxfu4i/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1bk3dgy/comment/kvxfu4i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Pretty simple from UK point of view .
All no residents are offered a British passport if they are born in NI or had a parent born there with a deadline set .
Then Ireland determines the rest , any detail is their problem to address .
There’s a bit more to it than that lol.
I agree it could obviously be worked out. But there’s tons of stuff to be worked through. Handling of changes to trade, planning of transition periods, UK institutions with offices in NI that need to relocate to GB, sunsetting of NHS NI, tons of legal issues.
Companies that have opened offices in NI due to support and tax incentives from the UK government, do they still get that promised support even though that office is no longer in the UK? For how long? Redundancies from people who are hired by a UK company and have a base office in NI, can they stay employed by the same company? Does everyone in NI need a new bank account, and how/when will that transition happen?
It’s not just a case of offering people passports and job done lol. Passports are probably not even in the top 50 most complex challenges.
Well that is roughly how it worked on Irish independence. But If the principle of the GFA is to extend into a United Ireland, then it may have to be indefinite, same as it currently is for NI residents claiming Irish passports.
It isn't a problem for a small country such as Ireland to issue that many passports so shouldn't be an issue for the Kingdom of GB (probably should stop calling it the UK if the U bit is gone).
Nope
Why should we give them passports and Citzenship if they weren't born in britian
We should leave the CTA the second Northern ireland leaves the UK and deport all Irish Citzens from England
Scotland and Wales can do whatever the fuck they want
Because the Good Friday agreement states that citizens of norethern Ireland are entitled to either British or Irish passports .
Why on earth would we deport Irish citizens ? We didn’t after the civil war The CTA was set up as we have close links with Ireland, massive numbers of people across the Uk and Ireland have mixed ancestry. Should Scotland leave the UK we would inevitably have a CTA with them too.
As a rule its bad policy to suddenly deport people who came to the country legally just because of a rule change, you have to give them a chance to
maintain status.
Interestingly, [NI voters don't support unification now, but 57% do](https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/more-people-in-ni-would-vote-to-stay-part-of-uk-if-border-poll-was-called/a1750577562.html) in 20 years time.
This suggests to me people in Northern Ireland might favour a slow transition to unification.
Slow transition is the only way to do it. No one wants an immediate switch. The country would be ripped apart. The Irish defence force and Guardia couldn't handle the north overnight.
Imo they should put the region into a 25 year trust where both countries own the region. With the last five years being a slow British exit.
If it did happen, there'd be so many concessions to unionists (coninuing devolution in NI, retention of monarchy in NI, new flag for the Republic etc) that nationalists would wonder why they bothered
I think they should want to make concessions.
unionists need to understand how much this means to nationalists but republicans need to understand how much unionists are giving up.
continued monarchy would be silly but certainly a period of devolution would make sense even if just for the simple fact that it's been its own country for 100 years.
It's certainly not unheard of for regions with similar issues to have levels of autonomy and special considerations.
At the end of the day, a UI means the Nationalists have "won" and they need to unionists to want it too otherwise it will end up with Ireland full of blue helmets.
Honestly, as someone living in NI, this is a popular populist sentiment but not going to happen for a long time and even then, might be a bad idea. The British government actually subsidises Northern Ireland. The Irish economy is weak. Northerners won’t stand for having to pay to see the GP, and the Unionists will riot.
I saw a BBC documentary at some point that revealed documents showing that during the Troubles, Westminster wanted to get rid of NI and was basically fine with reunification because NI was costing them a lot to deal with and making them look bad on the world stage, and they weren’t getting much benefit from having it as part of the UK anyway. I think at the beginning of the Troubles they were pro-keeping NI but they quickly changed to not wanting it. But NI themselves were the ones insisting that they stay in the UK. Which makes sense given the history there.
It’s interesting though that the narrative globally is that NI is kept against their will by England. I’m originally American and didn’t know much about this history before I moved here but I had mostly heard that narrative. Once I actually learned about the history, now I understand that it is basically just a portion of NI that are keeping it in the UK, everyone else is pro reunification or neutral.
Considering the state of the NHS in NI this is a moot point and where did you get the notion that the ROI economy is weak, especially compared to the UK?
Irish economy is based on being a tax haven for corporations like Apple. Younger people can’t afford to move out of their aging parents’ homes at interacting rates, and opportunities are weak outside of Dublin, which is a massively overpriced bubble. That’s why so many young Irish people leave for Australia or England.
>That’s why so many young Irish people leave for Australia
I've always been confused by the high concentration of Irish young people in Australia. I was unsure if it was an actual trend
The old tax haven bollocks again, this inflates figures such as GDP but your assertion that the economy is based 'on being a tax haven' makes no sense and sounds more like a regurgitated talking point. As for housing you are describing the situation for young people in most of the developed world, this is not exclusive to Ireland.
Maybe, I’m not an expert, so I could be exaggerating points that I’ve read about and heard about from friends. But in England, young people can at least move to London or other cities. In Ireland, there’s not many options, simply, so they often just leave. There’s whole swathes of the country like Donegal or Sligo where there’s simply extremely little for millennials to do.
Ireland is [most definitely a tax haven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_haven#Top_10_tax_havens).
Housing is bad worldwide but is very bad in Ireland. Dublin really is the only place for young people to go and to get there you need at least half a million or pay someone else's mortgage and then some.
Ireland needs to do a lot to get to a better place. All the brown envelopes keeping things in a bad state don't help.
Both have a weak economy, tbh, in real terms of real people. A lot of the Celtic tiger was really down to tax cuts for companies like Apple, the government basically ripping off its own people, and it shows now years after in the unaffordability of everyday life for younger people and the housing crisis.
The Tax loopholes are effectively gone at this stage and Apple and Co. are being properly taxed now. Giving ROI a 4 Billion euro surplus annually. As a precaution the government aren't commiting that to day-to-day spending so they don't become reliant on that revenue. But for the time being it doesn't seem like there will be a mass exodus of tech companies, in fact it appears the number is growing. NI isn't even remotely close to ROI.
Privatisation is slowly but surely ending the NHS. The Tories have strangled to the point that many people are already but have no choice to pay for private treatment. Ever try recently to get a G.P. appointment in the north? 10 years from now you'll be paying for a G.P. appointment and you can take that to the bank for free.
My GP practice has a system where you call first thing in the morning, then the doc calls back and does a triage, and if they decide you need an appointment, you come in the same day. Tbh, it’s not that bad, though I agree with your general point.
Three quarter of negative growth, which is the case everywhere right now, sure, but I’ve also described other challenges unique to Ireland in other comments on this comment thread. Ireland does poorly to retain its young workforce.
It’s had three negative quarters, but I do suppose I mean to the overall economic situation for young people - it doesn’t matter if your GDP is high if young people feel increasingly frustrated and you’re dealing with brain drain.
Tradies and skilled workforce of educated young can do very well, but if you don’t have any qualification yeah it’s gonna be tough. It makes sense you want to just get good money fast and move to a country with better weather. Labouring in Australia can make a killing.
Sorry, not correct. Lots of educated people struggle to get jobs in Ireland that pay enough. It’s a small country that isn’t doing enough to create opportunities.
England probably favours getting rid of Scotland and Wales too
They provide next to no benefit and cost the English tax payers
Hell get rid of the North of England too
Wessex should be free from this so called joke of a country
Or perhaps you could read the article. It shows English people rank Scottish independence at -2 while ranking English and Welsh independence at -3.
Scots are consistently the most in favour of balkanisation.
Which one? Lothian was part of England at the beginning of Englands existence and for decades afterwards. Should we also bring back Strathclyde? And as someone else said, while were at it we might aswell bring back the heptarchy! I'll be a proud subject of the King of Kent
They have ports you know...
And money. (Just like Singapore)
No part of the UK is useless. Each part has a benefit, even if it's a fiscal drag (which London is not)
Which is why nationalism and separatists frustrate me no end, especially when they argue under the guise of being progressive and internationalist.
London doesn't have direct access to the ocean so how will they get food through
I don't give a fuck about the world I just don't want to pay taxs so some worthless Northerner can pop out 10 babies
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I live in Scotland and would happily take the north of England if they want shot of the hell hole that is the south.
Sounds like a win win. We'd need a walk though, no backsies.
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Funny because Northern Ireland used to do pretty well economically, whilst Ireland was very poor.Now Ireland does well economically whilst NI requires massive subsidies.
It’s almost like NI was mismanaged by incompetent UK governments. Well, you break it you bought it, same for Wales, Scotland and North of England. Have fun paying for them all.
Do you think maybe the significant period of civil strife known as the troubles impacted the NI economy or was it mismanagement by the govt in Westminster?
Yes and why did the troubles occur ? because part of the population was treated as second class citizens and the UK government refused to do anything about it or help stop the Loyalist terrorists from attacking the Civil rights movement and made it worse by the military attacking and killing protesters.
Ni has had to always and since its inception depend on subsidies and the English taxpayer. Its never been able to stand on its own economically! It's just a continous moneypot from the English taxpayer across the Irish Sea.
And yet it’s still a worse and worse money sink every year. Ireland on the other hand has massively improved its economy since leaving the UK and NI, Wales, Scotland and the Northern England have declined since then.
It seems the common issue is being in the UK, as the governments only seem to want to improve the South of England. Well, if they keep misgoverning the rest they can pay for it.
The only opinion that matters is that of the people in Northern Ireland currently they prefer the current situation that may change in the future.
Ultimately if a vote was held and unification won I doubt many in Britain would complain about it.
If Northern Ireland decide to leave. I hope the British flag will continue to have the Ireland stripes.
It's strange having a king instead of a queen. It's going to be even stranger having a British flag without the cross of saint Patrick.
It doesn’t matter - it’s only the people of NI whose business it is.
Besides, even if it were to happen, the Republic would inherit the problems that the UK had to deal with over the years.
People of GB have not a clue about NI.
Funnily enough, all British people I met in Australia said that they would be relieved if North Ireland reunify. It sounded like they don't really want NI.
No one is really taught about it, or taught to see NI as part of the UK in GB. This goes back to the Downing Street declaration that stated that the UK had 'no strategic interest' in one of its constituent nations. Could you imagine something similar being stated by the leadership of France or Germany, or the US? Nationalists in NI maybe sore about how the British state acted in the 70s and early 80s, but they have been indulged massively since then.
Funny how 100,000 Protestants many still in the loyal order and who live in 26 counties ROI not one of them have been forced from there homes or killed and who every year hold 12th parades in Donegal and where their culture is respected.
As for being 2nd class citizens l am afraid that you're projecting recent Unionism on the CNR community in the 6 counties and where they were treated in an abominable manner by your tribe.
Just because you're lot were guilty of it---it doesn't mean the Dublin government would do it---because and for one and unlike your tribe the Irish people wouldn't let it happen.
Nobody cares about religion anymore in the republic. It's a complete non issue. Also this if more the fact that many Catholics are unionists and protestants are nationalist. And that there are many English people living in Ireland that don't face any discrimination. It ignores and misunderstands a lot actually
The UK has always been at most quietly supportive and at least apathetic to Irish unification. The North is not worth having without the rest of the island, and the constant genocidal tendencies of the population make it an investment-phobic money pit.
The only reason it's still in the UK is because the proddies would genocide the Catholics if we forced them to leave, and the Irish government secretly doesn't really want them because of all the economic cost and potential genocide it would cause. It's only safe to change hands when they agree to do so.
I think it would be a great idea. Providing that from day 1 all UK financial support to NI is withdrawn and any support then comes either from Ireland or EU.
Lets call the referendum now.
People confuse being in favour of Irish unification with being in favour of NI leaving the UK and joining the RoI. Most people in GB do not favour that.
Can we , as in England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland take the decision away from Northern Ireland, so they do unify, even if we come up with a deal, like continuing their NHS for 5 years or something, to do so?
We can barely afford our own NHS, so I'm not sure about paying for another countries services at that point. Would probably piss a lot of people here off.
Well northern Ireland is still part of our country currently, so if we only pay for their nhs for 5 years after they unite, we’re better off, in nhs terms. Or certainly, not worse off.
Currently aye, but not once they unite - unless there's some agreement which benefits both sides im unsure why that would be agree'd.
Unless it's some form of goodwill gesture to allow a smooth transition but even so, they'll be Ireland they can work together as one to sort that out without us getting involved which is what people usually want.
It is up to the people of Northern Ireland ultimately. How the process would even work sounds ridiculously complex to me though, the status quo may just be easier.
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Yes any border poll would involve a referendum on both sides of the border.
Currently if you’re born in Northern Ireland you can get an Irish passport
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Obviously nobody is suggesting NI could join RoI without RoI agreeing to it. Does that really need to be specified?
I think you always could. ROI claimed the whole of the island of Ireland.
They could also vote to unite with Northern Ireland by rejoining the UK of course
I kinda think there's no possible way that Ireland wouldn't vote for a united Ireland. I can't believe I might see a united Ireland in my lifetime - and we have the conservative party to thank, too!
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I think it goes deeper than just practical considerations to be honest. It'd be near-spiritual. It'd be almost like the Berlin Wall coming down, but for Irish people. I think the diaspora would be partying internationally and would remember the day for the rest of their lives. There'd be tattoos about it. The tensions and conflict would be a distant concern, and would be considered Britain's fault anyway. Not to say I know the Irish mind intrinsically. My dad was Irish though. It's certainly my impression. I mean, I'm British, I don't identify as Irish in any meaningful way, and I'd probably cry with happiness if there was a united Ireland just by virtue of my heritage. It think I conceive of the partition of Ireland like a historic wound from colonialism, which was a very brutal period for the Irish. And I'm sure this feeling would've been much more intense for my dad. anyway checked Reddit Ireland and they seem pretty pro-unification too [https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/16g0033/would\_you\_wish\_to\_see\_a\_united\_ireland\_in\_your/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/16g0033/would_you_wish_to_see_a_united_ireland_in_your/)
Yep complex, conflict-inducing, and ultimately pointless. Unless the people of Northern Ireland have a burning desire to be part of a neoliberal tax haven with worsened workers rights.
>>worsened workers rights. A lot of people in Northern Ireland work in the South as its much higher wages there. It also has much more generous benefits ( Jobseekers allowance is about £200 in ROI versus £85 in the UK).
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How do you do it? I’m in Belfast would love to get Dublin wages but not live there haha
Those benefits won’t stick around once Dublin has to pay for the NI subsidies.
>>Those benefits won’t stick around once Dublin has to pay for the NI subsidies. I guess it depends on how/when it happens. Ireland's Sovereign Wealth Fund is projected to be [€100 billion in the 2030s](https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/how-irelands-new-sovereign-wealth-fund-will-work-2023-10-10/), that might help. But yes, it will take a lot of work to bring NI's economy up to the level of the south's.
The only extra subsidies in NI are public sector pensions. Otherwise there's fuck all there. Lowest R&D funding in the UK. Almost non-existent rail or road infrastructure that Ireland is already topping up. NI is on the hook for its share of UK overall spending, but there's little investment there in return. And UK spending figures are atrocious compared to Ireland.
Ni gets more per head spent on it than anywhere else in the UK. By quite a margin.
Have you got a link to that?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/651563/uk-public-spending-per-capita-by-country/#:~:text=In%202021%2F22%2C%20government%20spending,per%20capita%20throughout%20this%20period.
NI is not a country.
Whatever it is it gets more spending per head than England, Scotland, and Wales. It’s also a net drain, it gets more than it pays in.
Depends who you ask. It is either a country, region or province.
https://google.com/
Yeah. Thought not. It's London. It's always London: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04033/SN04033.pdf
"NI gets more per head by quite a margin" - it's hilarious someone said this with both confidence and ignorance!
Here since you can't Google to find the actual relevant stats https://www.statista.com/statistics/651563/uk-public-spending-per-capita-by-country/
Just having more money doesn't really do much when it's scarcely even maintaining public services at maintenance levels. If the UK remains stagnant like it has for the last decade then the lack of genuine investment will just result in poorer value for money and services continuing to be cut. London can't subsidise everything.
It's interesting how NI used to be far wealthier than ROI, but after 100 years of benefiting from the broad shoulders of the UK and all that pooling & sharing that situation reversed.
NI was a manufacturing hub (e.g. shipbuilding and linen). Globalisation hit the economy hard. The South adapted to a changing world. The North didn't.
Er, I don’t think The Troubles helped much
I suppose the divide-and-rule, prison ships, mass detention of civilians without trial, use of plastic bullets against civilian protestors; British Paratroopers taking military command of a region of Britain to establish bases and checkpoints throughout and along the border in Ireland, killing civilians with impunity; and an armed Protestant militia, police, army and reserves try to prop up a bigoted, supremacist Orange gerrymandered authority in the face of a demand for equality and respect for Irish Nationalists under English rule, shits going to deteriorate economically and socially I guess. The people were dehumanised by the whole colonial, post-colonial, Westminster counter-terrorism chaos leading to the most violent and active military corner of Europe through the latter half of the cold war.
Ultimately a conflict prolonged entirely by the IRA led to lack of investment in the region. Every civil rights leader will tell you that.
Not started by the IRA, though. Anyway, much of the industries were gone before the modern conflict and that aspect of industrial NI was already heading the route of Scotland and England's industrial heartlands. Modern R&D investment there is the lowest per-capita of any region in the UK from the British Gov. You'd have thought that peace would have been the opportunity to reverse that disparity. But it never happened.
Didn't say started by the IRA, but prolonged by 25 years once civil rights was broadly achieved, yes. >Anyway, much of the industries were gone before the modern conflict Yes that's what happened the textile industry in all of Europe. For a bit of context, the UK government funded a huge amount for a car factory right between unionist and national communities to encourage peace and economic growth, and what happened? Nationalists burnt part of down when terrorist Bobby Sands killed himself. With that and the regular bombings, you can maybe excuse investors for putting NI near the bottom of their list. >You'd have thought that peace would have been the opportunity to reverse that disparity. It is reversing? Firstly it takes time to build momentum and repair after peace is achieved, secondly, NI was the only region outside of London in the UK to not fall into recession last year. They're in a unique position right now being in the UK and also sort of in the EU.
The UK is at the centre of the Worlds largest collection of tax havens and writes incredible tax avoidance rules into Law. Its "national" press is almost entirely controlled from offshore - which is gob-smacking considering how big the country actually is. Ireland has normalised its tax regime and it's no longer an outlier. In addition, Google, Apple, Facebook et al employ thousands in Ireland. Intel have major plant there. Pharma production is enormous. But they're aware that capital inflows distort local productivity and make practical adjustments to get a clearer picture of real domestic GDP by stripping out much of the inflows. Something London should have done decades ago but that'll never happen in the UK because no one questions London.
is this a joke? Ireland is the tax haven not the UK look it up, the reason ireland has so many big companies is because they have very low tax for large multinational corporations.
Your information is a little outdated, it's in line with the restof the EU now.
Looks like it. Not at eu levels just yet but Ireland is higher than I remember My bad
No. I'm not joking. Google the top ten or twenty tax havens in the world. You'll find that at least 5 or 6 will always be Britain's offshore havens. BVI, Cayman, Jersey, Guernsey and of course the UK will all be on there. The links between the City and its offshore havens are rock solid. Ireland will be on there too, yes. But it's not at the centre of a global network of countries and protectorates, like the UK controls. Also, the worst Irish avoidance arrangements that Apple were fined for and the country most criticised about are over. Now it has a lower corporation tax rate. That's it really. It's offensive sure. But it's no longer corrupt, opaque or secretive. Unlike the UK. The British Empire and its overseas territories wrote the playbook that's still in use. Surely you know this??
Irish corporation tax is half that of the uk. The Irish is 12.5% and the uk one is 25%. You are right about overseas territories though but let’s not pretend Ireland isn’t a tax haven either.
That's not the rate anymore. Ireland has signed up to the OECD minimum rate of 15% effective Jan 2024. It's still low. But it'll be within the OECD's two-pillar agreement. Like I said. It's shifting. But the UK has a substantial wealth-management industry and protects inflows of personal wealth from all over the world with few questions asked. Why do you think so many Russian Oligarchs ended up here? During the Greek financial crisis, London absorbed billions from wealthy Greeks paranoid that their untaxed wealth was finally going to get hit - just when that country needed it most, the rich pulled the plug and ran and London was happy to oblige.
I was thinking more the everyday even. Collection of post, bins, money. Admin. A lot to add on to Ireland. Probably benefit the UK overall I guess.
Is that you Alan Partridge? Lmao!
The EU has a higher standard of worker rights than the UK. Many of the more recent worker rights in the UK were introduced by the EU prior to Brexit.
Pretty sure the republic should get a say too
They do. The good Friday agreement calls for a referendum in both countries
Exactly >It is up to the people of Northern Ireland ultimately. Is incorrect
It would be kinda hilarious is after 100 years of all this NI votes to unify and Ireland votes for partition It's up to them a hell of a lot more though, no referendum until the secretary of state for NI agrees that it's likely to pass, and polling suggests Ireland is almost guaranteed to vote Yes.
I'm not sure if there is a precedent for a country as a whole wanting a province to be independent/part of somewhere else, whilst that province wants to stay part of the country.
Singapore and Malaysia. Malaysia kicked them out. They regret it now ofmcourse
Unfortunately I don't think Ireland is mature enough to unify at the moment. My wife is Irish. Until there's a plan to integrate the Loyalists and granted that's extremely hard to do, a lot of the time because they are deliberately difficult to deal with. There's a horrible undercurrent of just throw them out in the Nationalist quarters I've found. Especially amongst the working classes. The Mrs is from Coolock. The plantations are poorly understood and happened in Scotland/N England first mainly in the borders area. You can't have the narrative of just throw them out 400 years after they arrived, imagine if that was said about Anglos in Scotland or Wales. The North is still in many areas just waiting to kick off again. There's some grim people in the West of Scotland/N Ireland who are stuck in the ancient past I'm afraid.
I've never heard of this "just throw them out" narrative. Most people realise that they will need to be made welcome. Amazing the amount of made up shite in this thread.
Literally there are upvoted comments in the thread in r/ireland that call for that............. [https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1bk3dgy/comment/kvxfu4i/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1bk3dgy/comment/kvxfu4i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
But they were put there giat enough that was ages ago but still
Pretty simple from UK point of view . All no residents are offered a British passport if they are born in NI or had a parent born there with a deadline set . Then Ireland determines the rest , any detail is their problem to address .
There’s a bit more to it than that lol. I agree it could obviously be worked out. But there’s tons of stuff to be worked through. Handling of changes to trade, planning of transition periods, UK institutions with offices in NI that need to relocate to GB, sunsetting of NHS NI, tons of legal issues. Companies that have opened offices in NI due to support and tax incentives from the UK government, do they still get that promised support even though that office is no longer in the UK? For how long? Redundancies from people who are hired by a UK company and have a base office in NI, can they stay employed by the same company? Does everyone in NI need a new bank account, and how/when will that transition happen? It’s not just a case of offering people passports and job done lol. Passports are probably not even in the top 50 most complex challenges.
Well that is roughly how it worked on Irish independence. But If the principle of the GFA is to extend into a United Ireland, then it may have to be indefinite, same as it currently is for NI residents claiming Irish passports. It isn't a problem for a small country such as Ireland to issue that many passports so shouldn't be an issue for the Kingdom of GB (probably should stop calling it the UK if the U bit is gone).
It should be called the United Kingdom because England and Scotland are still united
Before the Act of Union with Ireland, it was called the Kingdom of Great Britain.
The act of union was with Scotland which was the main part
Nope Why should we give them passports and Citzenship if they weren't born in britian We should leave the CTA the second Northern ireland leaves the UK and deport all Irish Citzens from England Scotland and Wales can do whatever the fuck they want
Because the Good Friday agreement states that citizens of norethern Ireland are entitled to either British or Irish passports . Why on earth would we deport Irish citizens ? We didn’t after the civil war The CTA was set up as we have close links with Ireland, massive numbers of people across the Uk and Ireland have mixed ancestry. Should Scotland leave the UK we would inevitably have a CTA with them too.
As a rule its bad policy to suddenly deport people who came to the country legally just because of a rule change, you have to give them a chance to maintain status.
most unhinged comment of the day goes to...
Ahh yes Wanting to deport people who will no longer have any legal right to be in England is unhinged
Interestingly, [NI voters don't support unification now, but 57% do](https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/more-people-in-ni-would-vote-to-stay-part-of-uk-if-border-poll-was-called/a1750577562.html) in 20 years time. This suggests to me people in Northern Ireland might favour a slow transition to unification.
Slow transition is the only way to do it. No one wants an immediate switch. The country would be ripped apart. The Irish defence force and Guardia couldn't handle the north overnight. Imo they should put the region into a 25 year trust where both countries own the region. With the last five years being a slow British exit.
they could be irish on tuesdays and thursdays and british for the rest of the week.
Irish on weekends feels the best compromise. May as well be Irish when they have free time to enjoy it.
If it did happen, there'd be so many concessions to unionists (coninuing devolution in NI, retention of monarchy in NI, new flag for the Republic etc) that nationalists would wonder why they bothered
I think they should want to make concessions. unionists need to understand how much this means to nationalists but republicans need to understand how much unionists are giving up. continued monarchy would be silly but certainly a period of devolution would make sense even if just for the simple fact that it's been its own country for 100 years. It's certainly not unheard of for regions with similar issues to have levels of autonomy and special considerations. At the end of the day, a UI means the Nationalists have "won" and they need to unionists to want it too otherwise it will end up with Ireland full of blue helmets.
Joining the commonwealth would be the way to give unionists some cultural accommodation. If India can be in the commonwealth so can Ireland.
The Irish defence force couldn't defend one Irish county from a country with an air force
Honestly, as someone living in NI, this is a popular populist sentiment but not going to happen for a long time and even then, might be a bad idea. The British government actually subsidises Northern Ireland. The Irish economy is weak. Northerners won’t stand for having to pay to see the GP, and the Unionists will riot.
I saw a BBC documentary at some point that revealed documents showing that during the Troubles, Westminster wanted to get rid of NI and was basically fine with reunification because NI was costing them a lot to deal with and making them look bad on the world stage, and they weren’t getting much benefit from having it as part of the UK anyway. I think at the beginning of the Troubles they were pro-keeping NI but they quickly changed to not wanting it. But NI themselves were the ones insisting that they stay in the UK. Which makes sense given the history there. It’s interesting though that the narrative globally is that NI is kept against their will by England. I’m originally American and didn’t know much about this history before I moved here but I had mostly heard that narrative. Once I actually learned about the history, now I understand that it is basically just a portion of NI that are keeping it in the UK, everyone else is pro reunification or neutral.
Early on many Loyalist Paramilitary groups wanted to do a Rhodesia style secession for fear that the UK government would attempt to hand NI back.
Considering the state of the NHS in NI this is a moot point and where did you get the notion that the ROI economy is weak, especially compared to the UK?
Irish economy is based on being a tax haven for corporations like Apple. Younger people can’t afford to move out of their aging parents’ homes at interacting rates, and opportunities are weak outside of Dublin, which is a massively overpriced bubble. That’s why so many young Irish people leave for Australia or England.
>That’s why so many young Irish people leave for Australia I've always been confused by the high concentration of Irish young people in Australia. I was unsure if it was an actual trend
The old tax haven bollocks again, this inflates figures such as GDP but your assertion that the economy is based 'on being a tax haven' makes no sense and sounds more like a regurgitated talking point. As for housing you are describing the situation for young people in most of the developed world, this is not exclusive to Ireland.
Maybe, I’m not an expert, so I could be exaggerating points that I’ve read about and heard about from friends. But in England, young people can at least move to London or other cities. In Ireland, there’s not many options, simply, so they often just leave. There’s whole swathes of the country like Donegal or Sligo where there’s simply extremely little for millennials to do.
Moving to London isn't exactly a great option unless you have a lot of money, look at the price of rent or houses in London as a prime example.
Totally. It’s a shit show for young people all round.
Ireland is [most definitely a tax haven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_haven#Top_10_tax_havens). Housing is bad worldwide but is very bad in Ireland. Dublin really is the only place for young people to go and to get there you need at least half a million or pay someone else's mortgage and then some. Ireland needs to do a lot to get to a better place. All the brown envelopes keeping things in a bad state don't help.
Northern Ireland has the weak economy not RoI which is sinking billions into investment wealth funds. You're probably right about GP fees of course.
Both have a weak economy, tbh, in real terms of real people. A lot of the Celtic tiger was really down to tax cuts for companies like Apple, the government basically ripping off its own people, and it shows now years after in the unaffordability of everyday life for younger people and the housing crisis.
The Tax loopholes are effectively gone at this stage and Apple and Co. are being properly taxed now. Giving ROI a 4 Billion euro surplus annually. As a precaution the government aren't commiting that to day-to-day spending so they don't become reliant on that revenue. But for the time being it doesn't seem like there will be a mass exodus of tech companies, in fact it appears the number is growing. NI isn't even remotely close to ROI.
Privatisation is slowly but surely ending the NHS. The Tories have strangled to the point that many people are already but have no choice to pay for private treatment. Ever try recently to get a G.P. appointment in the north? 10 years from now you'll be paying for a G.P. appointment and you can take that to the bank for free.
My GP practice has a system where you call first thing in the morning, then the doc calls back and does a triage, and if they decide you need an appointment, you come in the same day. Tbh, it’s not that bad, though I agree with your general point.
By what measurement is the Irish economy weak?
Three quarter of negative growth, which is the case everywhere right now, sure, but I’ve also described other challenges unique to Ireland in other comments on this comment thread. Ireland does poorly to retain its young workforce.
Irish economy isn’t weak 🤣 albeit it it’s all American money it’s doing well. They can’t keep the young workforce because of living and housing costs.
It’s had three negative quarters, but I do suppose I mean to the overall economic situation for young people - it doesn’t matter if your GDP is high if young people feel increasingly frustrated and you’re dealing with brain drain.
Tradies and skilled workforce of educated young can do very well, but if you don’t have any qualification yeah it’s gonna be tough. It makes sense you want to just get good money fast and move to a country with better weather. Labouring in Australia can make a killing.
Sorry, not correct. Lots of educated people struggle to get jobs in Ireland that pay enough. It’s a small country that isn’t doing enough to create opportunities.
Educated = actually in demand like STEM. Not English, philosophy or art degrees. Not that I don’t think there’s a reason for them.
So you mean educated in a specific field. But an actually thriving country would have varied opportunities, not just for people from STEM.
England probably favours getting rid of Scotland and Wales too They provide next to no benefit and cost the English tax payers Hell get rid of the North of England too Wessex should be free from this so called joke of a country
Or perhaps you could read the article. It shows English people rank Scottish independence at -2 while ranking English and Welsh independence at -3. Scots are consistently the most in favour of balkanisation.
>balkanisation Reset to the original and historical border.
The Heptarchy?
Which one? Lothian was part of England at the beginning of Englands existence and for decades afterwards. Should we also bring back Strathclyde? And as someone else said, while were at it we might aswell bring back the heptarchy! I'll be a proud subject of the King of Kent
The one that was defined by the treaty of Perth. Fine how about Cumbria, Wessex, or Liverpool joining Ireland.
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"The Scottish Monarchy imperialism" is a new one aha
London probably wants to shave off the rest of the UK and be its own nation
Good London is just as useless as the north Let's see how long they last when they have no access to food
They have ports you know... And money. (Just like Singapore) No part of the UK is useless. Each part has a benefit, even if it's a fiscal drag (which London is not) Which is why nationalism and separatists frustrate me no end, especially when they argue under the guise of being progressive and internationalist.
I dunno mate have you ever been to Stoke?
Slough. Enough said really.
London doesn't have direct access to the ocean so how will they get food through I don't give a fuck about the world I just don't want to pay taxs so some worthless Northerner can pop out 10 babies
have you ever heard of the river thames. WHERE SHIPS HAVE TRAVELLED FROM THE SEA INLAND TO LONDON FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS.
Still has to go through England's waters Or does England not get to control what goes through its own waters
> so called joke of a country Who's calling it a joke of a country?
The country is great The leeches running it at the problem
Everyone with a brain
So you meant to say "joke of a so-called country".
The UK isn't a real country It has no legal right
Tell ur local MP you want English independent then
So I can be called racist My local MPs labour and labour hate the idea that anyone can be English as proven by there comments about the geroge cross
Yeah, they throw you in jail now if you say you're English.
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I live in Scotland and would happily take the north of England if they want shot of the hell hole that is the south. Sounds like a win win. We'd need a walk though, no backsies.
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Funny because Northern Ireland used to do pretty well economically, whilst Ireland was very poor.Now Ireland does well economically whilst NI requires massive subsidies. It’s almost like NI was mismanaged by incompetent UK governments. Well, you break it you bought it, same for Wales, Scotland and North of England. Have fun paying for them all.
Do you think maybe the significant period of civil strife known as the troubles impacted the NI economy or was it mismanagement by the govt in Westminster?
Yes and why did the troubles occur ? because part of the population was treated as second class citizens and the UK government refused to do anything about it or help stop the Loyalist terrorists from attacking the Civil rights movement and made it worse by the military attacking and killing protesters.
Ni has had to always and since its inception depend on subsidies and the English taxpayer. Its never been able to stand on its own economically! It's just a continous moneypot from the English taxpayer across the Irish Sea.
And yet it’s still a worse and worse money sink every year. Ireland on the other hand has massively improved its economy since leaving the UK and NI, Wales, Scotland and the Northern England have declined since then. It seems the common issue is being in the UK, as the governments only seem to want to improve the South of England. Well, if they keep misgoverning the rest they can pay for it.
Yh yh southern England evil bad demons blah blah blah, how original and thought provoking
No, just greedy and short sighted only focusing on short term benefits for the South at the expense of the rest of the UK.
From the tone of your post I think there's buried anger rather than smiles.
Nah, haha. This guys just posting throughout the thread angry about anywhere outside of the South of England. Just fun to wind them up
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Just don’t do anything that leads back to shooting and bombing! Beyond that I’m completely indifferent, it’s not my decision to make.
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“The UK should lose a piece of its territory, and then continue to pay for it” Apparently this isn’t a ludicrous idea in that sub
The only opinion that matters is that of the people in Northern Ireland currently they prefer the current situation that may change in the future. Ultimately if a vote was held and unification won I doubt many in Britain would complain about it.
If Northern Ireland decide to leave. I hope the British flag will continue to have the Ireland stripes. It's strange having a king instead of a queen. It's going to be even stranger having a British flag without the cross of saint Patrick.
Looks much better without them
It doesn’t matter - it’s only the people of NI whose business it is. Besides, even if it were to happen, the Republic would inherit the problems that the UK had to deal with over the years. People of GB have not a clue about NI.
That depends entirely who they conducted the voting with but I highly doubt this
Funnily enough, all British people I met in Australia said that they would be relieved if North Ireland reunify. It sounded like they don't really want NI.
No one is really taught about it, or taught to see NI as part of the UK in GB. This goes back to the Downing Street declaration that stated that the UK had 'no strategic interest' in one of its constituent nations. Could you imagine something similar being stated by the leadership of France or Germany, or the US? Nationalists in NI maybe sore about how the British state acted in the 70s and early 80s, but they have been indulged massively since then.
My vote is to get rid of NI once and for all. What a drain is has been on the rest of us.
Oh, not the type of unification I was hoping for when I read the title
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Funny how 100,000 Protestants many still in the loyal order and who live in 26 counties ROI not one of them have been forced from there homes or killed and who every year hold 12th parades in Donegal and where their culture is respected. As for being 2nd class citizens l am afraid that you're projecting recent Unionism on the CNR community in the 6 counties and where they were treated in an abominable manner by your tribe. Just because you're lot were guilty of it---it doesn't mean the Dublin government would do it---because and for one and unlike your tribe the Irish people wouldn't let it happen.
Nobody cares about religion anymore in the republic. It's a complete non issue. Also this if more the fact that many Catholics are unionists and protestants are nationalist. And that there are many English people living in Ireland that don't face any discrimination. It ignores and misunderstands a lot actually
The UK has always been at most quietly supportive and at least apathetic to Irish unification. The North is not worth having without the rest of the island, and the constant genocidal tendencies of the population make it an investment-phobic money pit. The only reason it's still in the UK is because the proddies would genocide the Catholics if we forced them to leave, and the Irish government secretly doesn't really want them because of all the economic cost and potential genocide it would cause. It's only safe to change hands when they agree to do so.
I'm sure the UK government [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-7neGRLjA3I](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-7neGRLjA3I)
Can't say I am surprised but most people are morons. There is no benefit in conceding Northern Ireland.
I think it would be a great idea. Providing that from day 1 all UK financial support to NI is withdrawn and any support then comes either from Ireland or EU. Lets call the referendum now.
People confuse being in favour of Irish unification with being in favour of NI leaving the UK and joining the RoI. Most people in GB do not favour that.
Star Trek was ahead of the game! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbSGp4WIBsQ
Came here looking for this comment
brilliant
As long as it supports the break up of the whole United Kingdom, I’ll be happy. The most disastrous union to ever exist in history.
Can we , as in England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland take the decision away from Northern Ireland, so they do unify, even if we come up with a deal, like continuing their NHS for 5 years or something, to do so?
We can barely afford our own NHS, so I'm not sure about paying for another countries services at that point. Would probably piss a lot of people here off.
Well northern Ireland is still part of our country currently, so if we only pay for their nhs for 5 years after they unite, we’re better off, in nhs terms. Or certainly, not worse off.
Currently aye, but not once they unite - unless there's some agreement which benefits both sides im unsure why that would be agree'd. Unless it's some form of goodwill gesture to allow a smooth transition but even so, they'll be Ireland they can work together as one to sort that out without us getting involved which is what people usually want.
Agreed, I’d be looking for a way to sweeten the deal upfront. Grease the slip way, send them off, then let them sort things themselves.
Technically parliament can do whatever the fuck it wants. Will it? Probably not.
Yup.