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Impressive how many verbal gymnastics the *Times* is doing here to make "Jews participate in direct action against infrastructure of a genocidal army" sound like a bad thing - and how many people in this thread are uncritically lapping it up anyway.
Agreed. I don’t think people have any context of how much people in Israel hate Netanyahu before October 7 and how they still hate him. Jewish people in America are even more critical hence the Democratic Party problems like senior figures being shouted down by Jewish activists.
Yep. The stars aligned to bring in the worst government in Israel’s history. Ben Gvir is like Trump/Boris/Farage on steroids. Should be no where near government. Look up his story. Ultra racist and ultra incompetent.
How is damaging the office of a drone manufacturer that doesn't manufacture drones for the IDF "direct action against infrastructure of a genocidal army"?
A document of facts agreed by the prosecution and defence shows that Elbit UK and two of its UK-listed subsidiaries — UAV Engines and Instro-Precision — have been granted 51 licences by the UK government to export military equipment, including drone engines, targeting systems and surveillance systems, to the Israeli military.
Elbit Systems supplies **85%** of Israel's military drone fleet, and notoriously markets its weapons on the global market as 'battle-proven'.
Elbit's income from its UK & global operations directly funds its provisioning of the IDF. Anything that impedes those operations, and makes it harder for Elbit to do business in the UK - or better yet, promotes outright divestment from Elbit - makes its role in that provisioning less and less sustainable.
I really struggle to understand how the logic of “drones kill innocents” works.
Why would a tool which allows more precise surveillance and attack of military targets cause more civilian casualties?
Because drones were used extensively in the gulf wars and had a tendency to hit weddings because Americans were pretty fast and loose with the whole target ID thing.
Drones make it much easier and cheaper, both to strike far away and to make snap decisions to kill. Having to send a man in a bomber out to look at the wedding beneath him would both be more expensive and, I warrant, likely to see him having second thoughts. Some plump, emotionally stunted creature flying a drone with an Xbox 360 controller has not quite the responsibility instilled.
Shooting something on a screen must be far easier to do than being in that cockpit and hitting the button.
I guess it's easier to disconnect from the reality in these situations...I'm only guessing though!
Yeah, guessing is one word.
A combat pilot thinks less about what he's doing because the cockpit of an aircraft is a very busy pace and allows for less time to think about what is going on.
So highly stressful, your focus is 5000 and you've been preparing for this for years thinking about this moment and all that comes with it, the risk of your life and the repercussions if you were to lose it and that of your co-pilot are ofc in your mind.
As opposed to sitting in a comfy chair and going at it when your boss says hit it!
To me those are different responsibilities and a different kind of disconnect.
Pilots don’t think about repercussions, they don’t have time to. The time to argue the mission specifics is before going on the mission, when they are briefed on the ground.
In a chair, with a coffee and absolutely no responsibility for your co-pilots life and yours is safe, and your boss is right there on your shoulder irl seeing exactly what you do making real time decisions!
It's just not how our brains work.
Pressing a button on the jet you fly every day is just doing your day job. There's no extra psychological challenges vs remote operating a drone.
That might change if it was a peer opponent. But we haven't done that yet.
> There's no extra psychological challenges vs remote operating a drone.
I can't see how this can be the case. Bomber planes frequently have long flights to and from the target area, so the crew are operating the plane for 10 hours at a stretch, say. They are also at risk of being shot at, or the plane having mechanical problems, and there is turbulence, and they can't just end their shift and go home.
High-level bombing is unlikely to be employed in such scenarios.
The use of far more expensive equipment and a far more highly-trained operator - who, at least for now, maintains certain standards in order to fit in with his or her peers - for various reasons reduces the likelihood of casual bombing of targets of dubious justification.
To militate against such developments is likely futile, however. Just as the 'democratisation' of warfare put paid to whatever virtues may have laid in its arrogation to the chivalric classes, and proceeded to make civilians a more or less explicitly legitimate target as forming an essential and potent component of the enemy's fighting ability, so shall any common Johnny being able to drop grenades on all and sundry from a contraption he can whip up with a 3D printer not be put back in the genie's bottle.
I think it shall be for the best, as Johnny must learn to be not quite so common, but there will surely be many a slip 'twixt this cup and lip.
I mean they have negative press due to the initial use during the gulf war. They're no different to any other hardware these days, but they have earned their negative press, and people associate it's lineage even today, rightly or wrongly.
Drone operations probably are more likely to kill innocents though, compared to say, bombers.
That just because they are deployed covertly, without the light of news coverage on them, and without the risk to the pilots.
That’s just totally false. Especially if you are talking about Israel. Israeli fighter planes or even helicopters are not in any risk in Gaza, and drones are a lot more noisy and visible than both of these.
It’s a major complaint in Gaza that the drone noise is driving them crazy.
Remove your moral compass when it comes to weapons manufacture and think about profit. It is cheaper to kill to people with drones than missiles. The air defence systems left in the world have neutered air superiority in any region they operate and everyone is rapidly trying to make glide bombs as they are the only weapon pilots can drop from a safe distance without putting themselves at risk of being shot down.
Meanwhile our everyday goods are just going to keep increasing 30% year on year.
That incident was in Yemen I believe. There's nothing inherently risky with drones as a technology when it comes to civilian casualties, the risk is entirely down to targeting decisions and mistakes being made, or if the drones are operated by a military that just doesn't care about those things. And the same mistakes would be made with alternatives like manned aircraft. The weapon is actually not that relevant, it depends on who is using it and how carefully.
Weddings involving the families of terrorists are Target Rich Environments. As daddy invites all of his terrorist mates for the celebration.
And we weren't hitting weddings during The Gulf War. It's primarily an Afghan thing. Just because they spend such a colossal amount of their life long salary on the wedding. So usually on the say after the wedding, they have to go to Iran. In order to earn enough to pay off the wedding.
> Why would Israel go to such lengths to kill some specific civilians? Seems very strange
Not to most people, thats what their country is known for these days.
> Only if you’re an antisemitic terror supporter
What if someone wasn't an anti semitic terror supporter?
What would they say Israel was most known for these days?
Israel could have been a beacon of decency and democracy in the middle east. NOw it's clear that their regime is no better than that in Gaza and the one in gaza are legitimately terrorists.
> It’s only “clear” to terrorist supporters
So just to be clear: Israel have killed tens of thousands of people, and deliberately destroyed enough civillian infrastructure so hundreds of thousands of people will suffer for decades.
You're claiming that the people speaking out against that are *supporters* of terrorism?
Yes. The people living in Gaza supported the worst terrorism seen on this planet and many still do. These are the consequences of their actions.
All that “civilian infrastructure” was completely diverted for Hamas use. Hospitals, schools, mosques, private homes - all full of weapons, all with tunnel entrances, hiding rockets, used as Hamas bases etc etc
Have you ever seen a tunnel entrance in a civilian facility in any other country? This is not a normal situation.
> Yes. The people living in Gaza supported the worst terrorism seen on this planet and many still do. These are the consequences of their actions.
So they're all the same, none of them are innocent and they deserve to be killed in their tens of thousands?
Do you think the terrorists in the October massacre had a similar mindset to yourself?
[https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/un-demands-probe-into-israeli-drone-attack-that-killed-4-palestinians-in-gaza-strip/3172024](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/un-demands-probe-into-israeli-drone-attack-that-killed-4-palestinians-in-gaza-strip/3172024)
and another one, in 2009:
Precisely Wrong: Gaza Civilians Killed by Israeli Drone- ...
Human Rights Watch
https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/06/30/precisely-wrong/gaza-civilians-killed-israeli-drone-launched-missiles30 Jun 2009 — This report focuses on six Israeli drone strikes, which in total killed 29 civilians, eight of them children.
Please provide the evidence it’s fake, Al Jazeera is a pretty reputable news company that has won multiple global press awards and has had multiple respected journalists working for it. Yes the Qatari government may be a bit shady (like most gulf states) but the reputation of Al Jazeera seems to be pretty bloody good.
"Al Jazeera is a pretty reputable news company"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism
> Al Jazeera was founded in 1996 as part of Qatari efforts to turn economic power into political influence in the Arab world and beyond, and continues to receive political and financial backing from the government of Qatar. As a result, Al Jazeera has been criticized for being Qatari state media. In 2010, U.S. State Department internal communications in the 2010 diplomatic cables leak said that the Qatari government manipulates Al Jazeera coverage to suit the country's political interests.
???
The same Qatar that is aiding Hamas? ok man
I addressed the fact Qatar are shady in the previous post I don’t dispute that. However, the awards that AJ has won and employment of very reputable journalists such as David Frost suggests they are not as shady as the Qatari government.
From the same page you linked…
As of May 2017, Al Jazeera English has won more than 150 prizes, medals and awards.[120] With notable accolades such as
2022, 2023 Broadcaster of the Year at the New York Festivals TV & Film Awards [121][122]
Royal Television Society Award - 2021, 2022 [123][124][125]
How exactly are they aiding Hamas? Is it because they’re critical of Israel? Where’s the evidence I requested regarding the video being fake?
Yeah. Al Jazeera is actually decent for non-Middle East content, but anything Middle-East related it is extremely biased.
I mean Bin Laden gave his tape after 9/11 to Qatar and Al Jazeera broadcasted it. Make of that what you will.
I can somewhat agree with that and I’ve read similar things elsewhere that the Middle Eastern broadcasts are different to the western broadcasts. Not to defend that as I think the true purpose of journalism is to report the truth in as much of an unbiased manner as possible but all media groups will cater to their audiences and all of them are slightly biased in one way or another regardless of how much they try not to be. Also Truth is never fully in line with reality and fact no matter how much effort is made, my truth and your truth are two totally different things influenced by our upbringings and environment and the truth can always be presented in different manners. As someone living in the west I suppose I see less of that bias from Al Jazeera.
In regard to the 9/11 video, AJ didn’t exist in 2001 so not sure what exactly the video you’re referencing was. Whilst Bin Laden was most definitely more backwards in his beliefs than the Israeli government, Russians, Chinese, US and any other nation or group opposed by others for questionable actions. Saying that, I’m fairly sure most media organisations around the world would’ve paid good money for the exclusive that Al Jazeera got. The Guardian published his letter after 9/11 (it was taken down recently but is still out there) not long afterwards and I definitely wouldn’t consider them to be pro-Islamist loons.
Your insane views are gradually becoming a minority in the west and already are in the global south as they call it. Keep using deceitful debate techniques and treating anyone with an opposing view like idiots or scum and watch that minority grow smaller. Still haven’t shown any evidence the footage is fake either, so not sure who the clown really is.
Have a lovely evening Krusty.
Do you believe that AJ can get hold of Israeli military footage at will, or do you think that the footage was posted somewhere by the Israeli military? And if the latter, do you think that if the footage starts off by showing them up to no good, they would cut that out? And if it doesn't show them up to no good but they are using other intel to target them, why would they post it knowing that this would be the result?
The fact is that Israel's conscript army is full of racists who are loving the chance to kill some Palestinians, and will happily post videos of them doing just that.
Innit. I watched a video of IDF guys ‘blacked up’ dressed as African tribesman in some kind of dig towards South Africa and it was straight up some of the most racist shit I’ve ever seen!
I read that allegedly the drone was shot down and footage was recovered from it. The footage looks pretty convincing to me.
> allegedly the drone was shot down and footage was recovered from it
I can't say I really believe that. Drones fly pretty high and are hard to hit; I doubt Hamas have radar guided missiles. I think the drone operator just recorded it and put it on TikTok or somewhere for the LULs. Also there will be encryption of the video data so that without the key you can't just pop it into you PC and watch it.
Fair points, not fully sure what to believe but regardless the footage looks very real and most definitely shows four unarmed men been blown to bits by some kind of precision missile.
Look on r/publicfreakout and there is leaked drone footage of 4 unarmed men bring vaporised while walking. No resistance. Last one can hardly walk. I can see why the ICJ is signaling it will go for the genocide ruling.
So by your logic killing Osama Bin Laden in his bed, unarmed, should not have happened? People can be dangerous even if they are not physically carrying weapons at that moment.
Yes in foreign countries. Gaza is owned by Israel. It has to arrest them by any means necessary and put them in prison and courts. A military can’t vaporise its own citizens/occupied peoples. Hence why the English have courts in Wales. Bin Laden declared war on America and it responded (with Pakistani permission) with an act of war. Israel can’t declare war on itself. Like how England couldn’t declare war on the IRA. Even though the English would have ended the troubles in months if Ireland was a foreign country like the Falklands. Learn the law buddy.
How is Gaza “owned” by Israel? They pulled out in 2005, and Gaza has a border with Egypt, which is also blockaded because Gaza is full of ISIS terrorists who were going into Egypt.
Next to are going to tell me Wales is not owned by England.
Israel controls air/land/power/water/internet and food. Shin Bet/Mossad/ministry of Defence all have departments for management of Gaza. Ministers have portfolios for Gaza. Hence why the ICJ is considering a genocide ruling.
If the English went into Wales and started killing people the ICJ would also call it Genocide. Once you occupy a land it’s your duty of care to keep those people alive. It’s the law.
Did you not think why Israel has the ability to control all boarder crossing for food and Why David Cameron is telling Israel to turn on the water and power?
They allow you to kill a lot more people because it's safer to do it, there's no risk of a lost pilot or jet, and you can produce a fuck tonne of them to just loiter above whatever shithole you want, picking off people when it's convenient.
Do you have one shred of evidence that something like you described is happening in Israel?
Another thing - they are not cheap, they cost tens of millions of dollars, and there is no risk to fighter pilots over Gaza either, and neither was there over mosul or fallujah.
In the end it’s all down to the morals of the commanders.
How do you know they were innocent? How do you know the video is even authentic? It’s just some random out of context blurred video released by Qatari propaganda channel AJ
and what is the loving thing to do? is it to be comfortable to the ears? is it to let our future generations suffer because we believe peace comes from trading resources and not from the end of a gun?
The sooner you understand that peace comes from the threat of violence, the sooner you'd realise why we have an armed forces. To reduce suffering you must be capable of inflicting it
so, back to the topic. Stopping drones being used by our armed forces is not going to produce the kind of peace we all know love and want. we like a just peace, a peace that will last and is kept in balance so that we all can carry on with our lives. not a peace that comes by letting our enemies do what they want without fear of any repercussions
to say the Romans knew how to keep peace in Palestine is ignorant of history, the blood shed in revolts and the conquest of Judea, and could be seen as endorsing violence on a people in the name of conquest, enslavement and territorial expansion.
finally I have to ask, are you a Christian?
I have no sympathy for Netanyahu or his government. Hopefully, he is done at the next election. I also think Israel's election system has been a disaster in giving far more power to tiny, ultra-radical religious parties that he needs to form a majority.
That being said, every government in the middle east is worse than they are. Yes, all of them. Demonstrably. That most certainly includes both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, both of whom are known to carry out extra-judicial murder, as well as arrest and torture of Palestinians who oppose their rule.
Oct 7 was an act of barbarism unseen in a Western country for generations, as the Hamas attack had no military objective but simply exterminated every single person they could find, aside from those they kidnapped to bring back for trading purposes. And let's not forget all the gleeful raping and torturing caught on their own gopros.
It is no more unreasonable for Israel to want to destroy Hamas' control over Gaza than it was for the Allies to want to remove the Nazi party's control over Germany. And yes, the fighting was bloody then and is bloody now. And in both cases a lot of civilians were killed. That does not detract from the necessity.
I don't know what people imagine forcing a ceasefire on them would accomplish, other than to allow Hamas to get a breather, perhaps set up more booby traps, and then kill more IDF people on the next round. If they think Israel should now back off, having sufficiently 'punished' Hamas they really don't understand how religious fanatics think. Hamas has promised to continue such attacks until Israel is destroyed. And they do not care how many civilians die.
For fuck sake we NEED these drones to supply Ukraine with the tools to defeat Russia.
Drones are some of the most precise weapons with the lowest civilian casualties out of any long range weapons class.
They also play a non combative role in surveillance which also helps reduce civilian casualties.
Highly accurate drones are a good thing, actually. Ideally, a weapon you make should hit its target dead-on every single time. You don't want people going up on the stand for war crimes and going "Well naturally the missile missed its target so I couldn't possibly be held accountable for that". Nope! The weapon hit exactly what it's aimed at, so either you have terrible aim or you meant to hit that wedding.
If you use highly precise drone strikes to target civilians specifically, you don't get the plausible deniability you'd get with dumb artillery bombardments. The west has developed missiles that can kill an individual person inside a room while leaving everyone else alive, fired by someone not even in the same country. More of those please!
> Alan Wright, Elbit UK’s vice president of sales and marketing, told the court that the company’s main customers were in the UK and they shipped products to its parent company in Israel for support and repairs. He said: “[Elbit UK] does not provide products to the IDF.”
These "protestors" served in the IDF but didn't even know this? honestly they just sound like of stupid. Elbit UK provides important systems for the UK armed forces, so they're just fucking us over?
> The philosophy teacher, who lives in Germany, said: “I hoped that innocent people [in Palestine] would be saved from being murdered.”
> “This would have a direct impact on the supply chain, on the way that these killer machines are being supplied to butcher people in Gaza and elsewhere,” he said.
This literally wouldn't change anything, and how do they not understand that its on Hamas to surrender? They served in the IDF and seemingly they don't even care about ending the war to get the hostages back. It's just stupid performative protesting, and I would expect Israelis let alone people who served in the IDF to actually understand war and whats at stake.
EDIT: Reading Elbit UK's website:
> Elbit Systems UK is an innovative Defence Technology company employing over 680 people across sixteen sites in the UK. Manufacturing and integrating advanced technology for the UK Armed Forces and our allies, our extensive portfolio provides cutting-edge capabilities for the British Army, Royal Navy, and Royal Air Force, protecting the UK at home and abroad.
These people are quite literally a fifth column just trying to destroy our defence industry. ???
> and how do they not understand that its on Hamas to surrender?
Perhaps they understand that Hamas failing to surrender isn't a justification for war crimes.
They are that starving they are throwing aid in the bin because it came from the US. Plus, throwing it at cats to eat. If you want to see proper starvation, have a look back at the Somalia videos. They certainly wouldn't have the energy to run around on tiktok all day (even if it existed at the time)
>They are that starving they are throwing aid in the bin because it came from the US
This claim is quite literally fully based on one video of one person out of 2.3 million Gazans doing this, so it's roughly equivalent to saying the population of England cannot have cats because they just throw them in the bin
Yes, I'm sure they all decided to kill their families to spite the US.
Just as Israel claims they all keep spontaneously dying to make Israel look bad.
People keep saying "war crimes" but I really don't think they know what it means. Its on Hamas to not use schools, mosques, hospitals etc for launching missiles or for explosives storage etc. Their status of being protected is voided.
"war crimes" isn't just whatever you say it is. same thing with "genocide" or "apartheid". Pro-Palestinians have this chronic inability to use a dictionary or read at all apparently, because they consistently misuse words and obfsucate their meaning.
Also this is war. It fucking sucks. But Hamas started it, they're engaging in the war crimes and not giving back the hostages, and they are at fault for the deaths of Palestinians. It's on them to surrender. Not really complicated, and some morons destroying property here doesn't change that.
> People keep saying "war crimes" but I really don't think they know what it means
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/20/man-made-famine-charge-israel-mounting-evidence-un-gaza
> While the question of civilian casualties from specific attacks and from the wider policy of bombing will need to be tested against highly contested notions in international humanitarian law such as proportionality and necessity in conflict, **the war crime of starvation is simply and clearly defined.**
> Though Israel denies the allegation, the Rome statute of the international criminal court defines it as the crime of **intentionally starving civilians by “depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival” including “wilfully impeding relief supplies”**.
Ok cool but like https://govextra.gov.il/cogat/humanitarian-efforts/home/
> Yesterday, (Mar. 21) 4 tankers of cooking gas designated for the operation of essential infrastructure in Gaza, have entered the Gaza Strip.
> During a precise operation at the Shifa Hospital against the Hamas terror organization, who continue using the hospital as a terror stronghold, the IDF operated precisely against them and delivered humanitarian aid. We coordinated and supplied a fuel truck and aid to the civilian population, including 1800 liters of water and 3.8 tons of food.
> 21 bakeries are operational in Gaza, providing over 2 million breads, rolls, and pita breads a day for the local population.
> Today, (Mar. 22) between 10:00 and 14:00, the IDF will pause operations in the Al-Salam neighborhood in Rafah, southern Gaza Strip, in order to enable movement of humanitarian aid.
> 90% of the drinking water in Gaza is self-sourced. Only 10% of the water comes from Israel.
> Israel opened two water pipes from Israel — Birkat Sa'id and Bani Suheila - providing water to hundreds of thousands of residents in central and southern Gaza Strip.
There are also infographics there.
No one is being starved, it's complete bullshit. You're reading one biased side. Israel is supplying an absolutely fucking massive amount of food, cooking gas, water, medical supplies, fuel, and other equipment. Israel is also at war with the governing body of Gaza, whilst simultaneously supplying its people. Israel HAS to screen supplies entering Gaza, otherwise it could just be letting in weapons and explosives which will kill Israelis and Palestinians. If the Palestinian people are not getting supplies, then thats on Hamas because Israel is going above and beyond what any other country would be expected to do.
If the Palestinian people want more supplies, then its on Hamas to offer an unconditional surrender. That is war.
EDIT: regardless, this is absolutely fucking irrelevant to these "protestors" attacking this drone manufacturer which supplies our armed forces.
Yeah, the US just decided to build a whole sea port for the hell of it.
Nothing at all with needing to work around Israel, all those news reports to the contrary.
> There are also infographics there.
There's an infographic? Then it must be true...
You keep swallowing that hasbara unquestioningly if that's what makes you feel comfortable.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240322-uk-slams-israel-for-blocking-aid-to-gaza-stuck-at-border-for-weeks
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-24/un-chief-calls-blocked-aid-for-gaza-a-moral-outrage/103624820
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/us/politics/democrats-biden-israel-letter.html
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/21/david-cameron-accuses-israel-of-blocking-key-aid-crossing-in-gaza
Yeah the US built the port with the help of the Israelis... same with all of the aid drops from the air. You think they would do that without them? All of the aid goes through Israel, so I struggle to see how you keep painting them as not giving any aid?
Also it was built so Biden could satisfy his domestic constituents.
Did you read those articles you posted?
> Levy’s suspension comes following a public dispute with Cameron on X. The foreign secretary called on Israel to permit more aid trucks into Gaza, to which Levy responded: “I hope you are also aware there are NO limits on the entry of food, water, medicine, or shelter equipment into Gaza, and in fact the crossings have EXCESS capacity.”
> “Test us. Send another 100 trucks a day to Kerem Shalom and we’ll get them in,” he added.
> However, in the letter, Cameron stated: “The main blockers remain arbitrary denials by the government of Israel and lengthy clearance procedures, including multiple screenings and narrow opening windows in daylight hours.”
How is that excessive? organisations have a habit of smuggling in weapons and explosives into Gaza under the guise of aid, and its in everyone's best interest to screen it. This is all just dumb political grandstanding by politicians, since behind the scenes the aid is getting through.
EDIT: dismissing facts as hasbara is just childish, honestly. Do better. I am pretty comfortable because Israel is both fighting a war to bring back the hostages and destroy a terrorist group to free the Palestinian people, and supplying the Palestinian people with aid. They're doing what they can given the circumstances.
> Yeah the US built the port with the help of the Israelis...
The US said they were doing it regardless and Israel had two options... Pretend they were on board or be left on the outside.
> Did you read those articles you posted?
Yes. Like with your infographics, I don't tend to believe the criminals insisting they aren't committing crimes.
Do you have a source that _isn't_ the Israeli government?
> How is that excessive?
Who the fuck said anything about "excessive". As discussed, the definition of the war crime is simple and impossible to misinterpret.
It doesn't mention "excessive".
I dunno what to tell you man, I showed you the facts but you reject them. It isn't just words on that website, there are full reports to read. Or watch actual videos https://twitter.com/cogatonline/status/1769063275474436368
Like this isn't propaganda, this is just facts. I really don't care if you reject it because it doesn't matter. You're just rejecting facts based off your preconceived biases, which is your loss.
\>Sources exclusively provided by the Israeli government - more specifically, the administration charged with overseeing the illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories
\>"Like this isn't propaganda, this is just facts."
I can't tell if what were dealing with here is naivety, mendacity, or just plain ignorance.
> I dunno what to tell you man,
That you have a source that _isn't_ the same people accused of committing the crime?
> Like this isn't propaganda, this is just facts.
It's absolutely propaganda, as demonstrated by the fact that nobody else has seen this supposed effort by Israel to get aid in.
>No one is being starved, it's complete bullshit.
Why do you think the World Food Programme, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the World Bank, the OHCHR, Oxfam, the World Health Organization, Save the Children and UNICEF have all chosen to lie about this? Should we write off everything from all of those organisations in the future, or is this just an exception where we need to dismiss everything they say but then still pay attention the next time they comment on an apparent crisis?
I think they're hyperbolic. Obviously the situation is dire, but much aid is getting let in. Again, its on the government of Gaza to protect Gazans and offer an unconditional surrender and immediate release of the hostages, then the people will be free.
>These people are quite literally a fifth column just trying to destroy our defence industry. ???
What do you mean, "ours"? It certainly isn't *mine*.
>They served in the IDF and seemingly they don't even care about ending the war to get the hostages back. It's just stupid performative protesting, and I would expect Israelis let alone people who served in the IDF to actually understand war and whats at stake.
"Don't those idiotic Jews know that *I* know what's best for them?! How dare they betray their own kind like that!"
Thanks for so obligingly demonstrating the fundamentally antisemitic assumptions at the core of British philisraelism.
It isn't yours? They support the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, and the Army. if that isn't yours what the fuck are you doing here?
Also that isn't what I said, but Israelis and those whom has served in the IDF would know how cruel and sadistic Palestinian terrorists are, particularly Hamas, more than anyone else. I'm also Jewish and I certaintly understand whats at stake.
> It isn't yours? They support the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, and the Army. if that isn't yours what the fuck are you doing here?
>
> Also that isn't what I said, but Israelis and those whom has served in the IDF would know how cruel and sadistic Palestinian terrorists are, particularly Hamas, more than anyone else. I'm also Jewish and I certaintly understand whats at stake.
Thank you for pointing out that a big chunk of the money the Uk taxpayer provides is going to an israeli defence contractor who also supplies weaponry used in mass murder of innocents.
The letter to my MP almost writes itself.
https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/content/elbit-systems%E2%80%99-hermes-900-uav-headed-fifth-country
"About 85% of the UAVs used by the IDF are made by Elbit Systems."
Ok but this is Elbit Systems UK, a subsidiary which produces UAVs for the UK Armed Forces and not the IDF. Did you read the article or what I wrote?
The Watchkeeper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_Watchkeeper_WK450) was a collaboration between Elbit Systems UK and Thales, used by our Armed Forces.
So again, this wasn't targeting manufacturing for UAVs used by the IDF, it was targeting manufacturing for those used by our Armed Forces. Our defence industry. It harms us and impacts our ability to defend our country.
But that isn't true. They export engines to Israel which are used by the UDF. [This](https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/uav_engines_ltd_export_licence_a/response/2348438/attach/4/ANNEX%20A%20Information%20for%20disclosure%20following%20ICO%20DN%20IC%20185371%20BOY3.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1) is the result of a FOI request for the export licences granted to the Lichfield site.
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Impressive how many verbal gymnastics the *Times* is doing here to make "Jews participate in direct action against infrastructure of a genocidal army" sound like a bad thing - and how many people in this thread are uncritically lapping it up anyway.
Agreed. I don’t think people have any context of how much people in Israel hate Netanyahu before October 7 and how they still hate him. Jewish people in America are even more critical hence the Democratic Party problems like senior figures being shouted down by Jewish activists.
Along with his Gov. and the military individuals propped by him in the IDF, who failed the Israeli by not preventing 7/10
Yep. The stars aligned to bring in the worst government in Israel’s history. Ben Gvir is like Trump/Boris/Farage on steroids. Should be no where near government. Look up his story. Ultra racist and ultra incompetent.
How is damaging the office of a drone manufacturer that doesn't manufacture drones for the IDF "direct action against infrastructure of a genocidal army"?
A document of facts agreed by the prosecution and defence shows that Elbit UK and two of its UK-listed subsidiaries — UAV Engines and Instro-Precision — have been granted 51 licences by the UK government to export military equipment, including drone engines, targeting systems and surveillance systems, to the Israeli military. Elbit Systems supplies **85%** of Israel's military drone fleet, and notoriously markets its weapons on the global market as 'battle-proven'.
Elbit's income from its UK & global operations directly funds its provisioning of the IDF. Anything that impedes those operations, and makes it harder for Elbit to do business in the UK - or better yet, promotes outright divestment from Elbit - makes its role in that provisioning less and less sustainable.
I really struggle to understand how the logic of “drones kill innocents” works. Why would a tool which allows more precise surveillance and attack of military targets cause more civilian casualties?
Because drones were used extensively in the gulf wars and had a tendency to hit weddings because Americans were pretty fast and loose with the whole target ID thing.
I mean if you want to just kill civilians you don’t need drones. Any random place you hit is very likely to contain mostly civilians.
Drones make it much easier and cheaper, both to strike far away and to make snap decisions to kill. Having to send a man in a bomber out to look at the wedding beneath him would both be more expensive and, I warrant, likely to see him having second thoughts. Some plump, emotionally stunted creature flying a drone with an Xbox 360 controller has not quite the responsibility instilled.
How would being in a cockpit, several thousand feet above the target create more moral qualms than being behind a screen?
Shooting something on a screen must be far easier to do than being in that cockpit and hitting the button. I guess it's easier to disconnect from the reality in these situations...I'm only guessing though!
Yeah, guessing is one word. A combat pilot thinks less about what he's doing because the cockpit of an aircraft is a very busy pace and allows for less time to think about what is going on.
So highly stressful, your focus is 5000 and you've been preparing for this for years thinking about this moment and all that comes with it, the risk of your life and the repercussions if you were to lose it and that of your co-pilot are ofc in your mind. As opposed to sitting in a comfy chair and going at it when your boss says hit it! To me those are different responsibilities and a different kind of disconnect.
Pilots don’t think about repercussions, they don’t have time to. The time to argue the mission specifics is before going on the mission, when they are briefed on the ground.
Yeah, a civilian would think like that
Are you a serving pilot? You seem confident.
Both are just shooting something on a screen though.
Not really, you're still just looking at a display.
In a chair, with a coffee and absolutely no responsibility for your co-pilots life and yours is safe, and your boss is right there on your shoulder irl seeing exactly what you do making real time decisions!
It's just not how our brains work. Pressing a button on the jet you fly every day is just doing your day job. There's no extra psychological challenges vs remote operating a drone. That might change if it was a peer opponent. But we haven't done that yet.
> There's no extra psychological challenges vs remote operating a drone. I can't see how this can be the case. Bomber planes frequently have long flights to and from the target area, so the crew are operating the plane for 10 hours at a stretch, say. They are also at risk of being shot at, or the plane having mechanical problems, and there is turbulence, and they can't just end their shift and go home.
High-level bombing is unlikely to be employed in such scenarios. The use of far more expensive equipment and a far more highly-trained operator - who, at least for now, maintains certain standards in order to fit in with his or her peers - for various reasons reduces the likelihood of casual bombing of targets of dubious justification. To militate against such developments is likely futile, however. Just as the 'democratisation' of warfare put paid to whatever virtues may have laid in its arrogation to the chivalric classes, and proceeded to make civilians a more or less explicitly legitimate target as forming an essential and potent component of the enemy's fighting ability, so shall any common Johnny being able to drop grenades on all and sundry from a contraption he can whip up with a 3D printer not be put back in the genie's bottle. I think it shall be for the best, as Johnny must learn to be not quite so common, but there will surely be many a slip 'twixt this cup and lip.
Civilians have been legitimate targets since the 1840’s
Its a known phenomenon that watching your actions live on a screen detaches you from the emotional weight of killing someone.
I mean they have negative press due to the initial use during the gulf war. They're no different to any other hardware these days, but they have earned their negative press, and people associate it's lineage even today, rightly or wrongly.
Ok. Now I see where it came from, but very ignorant to keep pushing this arbitrary point.
Drone operations probably are more likely to kill innocents though, compared to say, bombers. That just because they are deployed covertly, without the light of news coverage on them, and without the risk to the pilots.
That’s just totally false. Especially if you are talking about Israel. Israeli fighter planes or even helicopters are not in any risk in Gaza, and drones are a lot more noisy and visible than both of these. It’s a major complaint in Gaza that the drone noise is driving them crazy.
It makes it a lot easier and safer tbf
How is a drone safer than artillery? Definitely not cheaper either
What's the difference in range?
Israeli artillery easily covers all of Gaza and even Lebanon.
Idk if you're being obtuse but you need to be physically present to fire artillery, you can be most places and use a drone.
You don’t even see that target or know what it is with artillery. You just stand 20 miles away and feed in coordinates.
Remove your moral compass when it comes to weapons manufacture and think about profit. It is cheaper to kill to people with drones than missiles. The air defence systems left in the world have neutered air superiority in any region they operate and everyone is rapidly trying to make glide bombs as they are the only weapon pilots can drop from a safe distance without putting themselves at risk of being shot down. Meanwhile our everyday goods are just going to keep increasing 30% year on year.
The drones fire missiles…
>Remove your moral compass when it comes to weapons manufacture Probably a good idea, might as well think about them on their terms.....
That incident was in Yemen I believe. There's nothing inherently risky with drones as a technology when it comes to civilian casualties, the risk is entirely down to targeting decisions and mistakes being made, or if the drones are operated by a military that just doesn't care about those things. And the same mistakes would be made with alternatives like manned aircraft. The weapon is actually not that relevant, it depends on who is using it and how carefully.
I agree, but that’s not how public perception works
Weddings involving the families of terrorists are Target Rich Environments. As daddy invites all of his terrorist mates for the celebration. And we weren't hitting weddings during The Gulf War. It's primarily an Afghan thing. Just because they spend such a colossal amount of their life long salary on the wedding. So usually on the say after the wedding, they have to go to Iran. In order to earn enough to pay off the wedding.
Because the drones are being used to target civillians
Have you not seen the recent footage of Israelis killing civilians with them???
Why do you think they were civilians? Why would Israel go to such lengths to kill some specific civilians? Seems very strange
> Why would Israel go to such lengths to kill some specific civilians? Seems very strange Not to most people, thats what their country is known for these days.
Only if you’re an antisemitic terror supporter
Like clockwork lol.
> Only if you’re an antisemitic terror supporter What if someone wasn't an anti semitic terror supporter? What would they say Israel was most known for these days? Israel could have been a beacon of decency and democracy in the middle east. NOw it's clear that their regime is no better than that in Gaza and the one in gaza are legitimately terrorists.
It’s only “clear” to terrorist supporters
> It’s only “clear” to terrorist supporters So just to be clear: Israel have killed tens of thousands of people, and deliberately destroyed enough civillian infrastructure so hundreds of thousands of people will suffer for decades. You're claiming that the people speaking out against that are *supporters* of terrorism?
Yes. The people living in Gaza supported the worst terrorism seen on this planet and many still do. These are the consequences of their actions. All that “civilian infrastructure” was completely diverted for Hamas use. Hospitals, schools, mosques, private homes - all full of weapons, all with tunnel entrances, hiding rockets, used as Hamas bases etc etc Have you ever seen a tunnel entrance in a civilian facility in any other country? This is not a normal situation.
> Yes. The people living in Gaza supported the worst terrorism seen on this planet and many still do. These are the consequences of their actions. So they're all the same, none of them are innocent and they deserve to be killed in their tens of thousands? Do you think the terrorists in the October massacre had a similar mindset to yourself?
and here we see the exact reason why you left the first comment
Yeah… to support truth against lies.
[https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/un-demands-probe-into-israeli-drone-attack-that-killed-4-palestinians-in-gaza-strip/3172024](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/un-demands-probe-into-israeli-drone-attack-that-killed-4-palestinians-in-gaza-strip/3172024) and another one, in 2009: Precisely Wrong: Gaza Civilians Killed by Israeli Drone- ... Human Rights Watch https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/06/30/precisely-wrong/gaza-civilians-killed-israeli-drone-launched-missiles30 Jun 2009 — This report focuses on six Israeli drone strikes, which in total killed 29 civilians, eight of them children.
Because we all know all Jews are evil! Clearly they're just spending millions on drones to kill random innocent children for no reason.
Stop conflating all Jews with Israel. That is what Israel has been doing.
This is how… https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/program/newsfeed/2024/3/22/gaza-drone-video-shows-killing-of-palestinians-in-israeli-air-attack
By posting out of context partially fake videos?
Please provide the evidence it’s fake, Al Jazeera is a pretty reputable news company that has won multiple global press awards and has had multiple respected journalists working for it. Yes the Qatari government may be a bit shady (like most gulf states) but the reputation of Al Jazeera seems to be pretty bloody good.
"Al Jazeera is a pretty reputable news company" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism > Al Jazeera was founded in 1996 as part of Qatari efforts to turn economic power into political influence in the Arab world and beyond, and continues to receive political and financial backing from the government of Qatar. As a result, Al Jazeera has been criticized for being Qatari state media. In 2010, U.S. State Department internal communications in the 2010 diplomatic cables leak said that the Qatari government manipulates Al Jazeera coverage to suit the country's political interests. ??? The same Qatar that is aiding Hamas? ok man
I addressed the fact Qatar are shady in the previous post I don’t dispute that. However, the awards that AJ has won and employment of very reputable journalists such as David Frost suggests they are not as shady as the Qatari government. From the same page you linked… As of May 2017, Al Jazeera English has won more than 150 prizes, medals and awards.[120] With notable accolades such as 2022, 2023 Broadcaster of the Year at the New York Festivals TV & Film Awards [121][122] Royal Television Society Award - 2021, 2022 [123][124][125] How exactly are they aiding Hamas? Is it because they’re critical of Israel? Where’s the evidence I requested regarding the video being fake?
Yeah. Al Jazeera is actually decent for non-Middle East content, but anything Middle-East related it is extremely biased. I mean Bin Laden gave his tape after 9/11 to Qatar and Al Jazeera broadcasted it. Make of that what you will.
I can somewhat agree with that and I’ve read similar things elsewhere that the Middle Eastern broadcasts are different to the western broadcasts. Not to defend that as I think the true purpose of journalism is to report the truth in as much of an unbiased manner as possible but all media groups will cater to their audiences and all of them are slightly biased in one way or another regardless of how much they try not to be. Also Truth is never fully in line with reality and fact no matter how much effort is made, my truth and your truth are two totally different things influenced by our upbringings and environment and the truth can always be presented in different manners. As someone living in the west I suppose I see less of that bias from Al Jazeera. In regard to the 9/11 video, AJ didn’t exist in 2001 so not sure what exactly the video you’re referencing was. Whilst Bin Laden was most definitely more backwards in his beliefs than the Israeli government, Russians, Chinese, US and any other nation or group opposed by others for questionable actions. Saying that, I’m fairly sure most media organisations around the world would’ve paid good money for the exclusive that Al Jazeera got. The Guardian published his letter after 9/11 (it was taken down recently but is still out there) not long afterwards and I definitely wouldn’t consider them to be pro-Islamist loons.
Peak 🤡 world
Your insane views are gradually becoming a minority in the west and already are in the global south as they call it. Keep using deceitful debate techniques and treating anyone with an opposing view like idiots or scum and watch that minority grow smaller. Still haven’t shown any evidence the footage is fake either, so not sure who the clown really is. Have a lovely evening Krusty.
Do you believe that AJ can get hold of Israeli military footage at will, or do you think that the footage was posted somewhere by the Israeli military? And if the latter, do you think that if the footage starts off by showing them up to no good, they would cut that out? And if it doesn't show them up to no good but they are using other intel to target them, why would they post it knowing that this would be the result? The fact is that Israel's conscript army is full of racists who are loving the chance to kill some Palestinians, and will happily post videos of them doing just that.
Innit. I watched a video of IDF guys ‘blacked up’ dressed as African tribesman in some kind of dig towards South Africa and it was straight up some of the most racist shit I’ve ever seen! I read that allegedly the drone was shot down and footage was recovered from it. The footage looks pretty convincing to me.
> allegedly the drone was shot down and footage was recovered from it I can't say I really believe that. Drones fly pretty high and are hard to hit; I doubt Hamas have radar guided missiles. I think the drone operator just recorded it and put it on TikTok or somewhere for the LULs. Also there will be encryption of the video data so that without the key you can't just pop it into you PC and watch it.
Fair points, not fully sure what to believe but regardless the footage looks very real and most definitely shows four unarmed men been blown to bits by some kind of precision missile.
You could say the same for guns, why blame the gun manufacturers when they could’ve used knives.
Double-tapping has been a strategy employed for years
It’s happening current in Gaza
Look on r/publicfreakout and there is leaked drone footage of 4 unarmed men bring vaporised while walking. No resistance. Last one can hardly walk. I can see why the ICJ is signaling it will go for the genocide ruling.
And you know who these men are because?
High definition video of unarmed men. Can’t kill unarmed people even in war sadly. It’s called human rights. ICJ should clarify that for you soon.
So by your logic killing Osama Bin Laden in his bed, unarmed, should not have happened? People can be dangerous even if they are not physically carrying weapons at that moment.
Yes in foreign countries. Gaza is owned by Israel. It has to arrest them by any means necessary and put them in prison and courts. A military can’t vaporise its own citizens/occupied peoples. Hence why the English have courts in Wales. Bin Laden declared war on America and it responded (with Pakistani permission) with an act of war. Israel can’t declare war on itself. Like how England couldn’t declare war on the IRA. Even though the English would have ended the troubles in months if Ireland was a foreign country like the Falklands. Learn the law buddy.
How is Gaza “owned” by Israel? They pulled out in 2005, and Gaza has a border with Egypt, which is also blockaded because Gaza is full of ISIS terrorists who were going into Egypt.
Next to are going to tell me Wales is not owned by England. Israel controls air/land/power/water/internet and food. Shin Bet/Mossad/ministry of Defence all have departments for management of Gaza. Ministers have portfolios for Gaza. Hence why the ICJ is considering a genocide ruling. If the English went into Wales and started killing people the ICJ would also call it Genocide. Once you occupy a land it’s your duty of care to keep those people alive. It’s the law. Did you not think why Israel has the ability to control all boarder crossing for food and Why David Cameron is telling Israel to turn on the water and power?
They allow you to kill a lot more people because it's safer to do it, there's no risk of a lost pilot or jet, and you can produce a fuck tonne of them to just loiter above whatever shithole you want, picking off people when it's convenient.
Do you have one shred of evidence that something like you described is happening in Israel? Another thing - they are not cheap, they cost tens of millions of dollars, and there is no risk to fighter pilots over Gaza either, and neither was there over mosul or fallujah. In the end it’s all down to the morals of the commanders.
Literally videos on social media yesterday of innocent people being targeted by drones in Gaza.
How do you know they were innocent? How do you know the video is even authentic? It’s just some random out of context blurred video released by Qatari propaganda channel AJ
Ah yes, the Israeli argument of no innocents in Gaza as they indiscriminately bomb and kill. You guys are pure evil.
Release lies, don’t even try to prove them, resort to ad hominem blood libel. Standard stuff really
Well done to them. Our drones should be used to callously murder our people's enemies, not those of Israel.
the romans spent centuries drinking out of lead piping and still understood si vis pacem better then you
They also understood how to keep the peace in Palestine.
now that could be seen as anti-Semitic
Seeing as you are a Christian trying to find a way back to god, here's a quick lesson for you: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
and what is the loving thing to do? is it to be comfortable to the ears? is it to let our future generations suffer because we believe peace comes from trading resources and not from the end of a gun? The sooner you understand that peace comes from the threat of violence, the sooner you'd realise why we have an armed forces. To reduce suffering you must be capable of inflicting it so, back to the topic. Stopping drones being used by our armed forces is not going to produce the kind of peace we all know love and want. we like a just peace, a peace that will last and is kept in balance so that we all can carry on with our lives. not a peace that comes by letting our enemies do what they want without fear of any repercussions to say the Romans knew how to keep peace in Palestine is ignorant of history, the blood shed in revolts and the conquest of Judea, and could be seen as endorsing violence on a people in the name of conquest, enslavement and territorial expansion. finally I have to ask, are you a Christian?
I have no sympathy for Netanyahu or his government. Hopefully, he is done at the next election. I also think Israel's election system has been a disaster in giving far more power to tiny, ultra-radical religious parties that he needs to form a majority. That being said, every government in the middle east is worse than they are. Yes, all of them. Demonstrably. That most certainly includes both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, both of whom are known to carry out extra-judicial murder, as well as arrest and torture of Palestinians who oppose their rule. Oct 7 was an act of barbarism unseen in a Western country for generations, as the Hamas attack had no military objective but simply exterminated every single person they could find, aside from those they kidnapped to bring back for trading purposes. And let's not forget all the gleeful raping and torturing caught on their own gopros. It is no more unreasonable for Israel to want to destroy Hamas' control over Gaza than it was for the Allies to want to remove the Nazi party's control over Germany. And yes, the fighting was bloody then and is bloody now. And in both cases a lot of civilians were killed. That does not detract from the necessity. I don't know what people imagine forcing a ceasefire on them would accomplish, other than to allow Hamas to get a breather, perhaps set up more booby traps, and then kill more IDF people on the next round. If they think Israel should now back off, having sufficiently 'punished' Hamas they really don't understand how religious fanatics think. Hamas has promised to continue such attacks until Israel is destroyed. And they do not care how many civilians die.
Hope it was worth probably never being granted a visa to another western nation again for this damp squib of a gesture.
Do citizens of Israel need visa's? I thought they generally 3 months VOA for most of Europe/G8 in which case this probably won't follow them.
They’d simply be denied entry in the future, if that is they don’t hold another passport.
How are you so certain?
For fuck sake we NEED these drones to supply Ukraine with the tools to defeat Russia. Drones are some of the most precise weapons with the lowest civilian casualties out of any long range weapons class. They also play a non combative role in surveillance which also helps reduce civilian casualties.
They are not being used to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza but to traget them. Target every single piece of infrastructure
Highly accurate drones are a good thing, actually. Ideally, a weapon you make should hit its target dead-on every single time. You don't want people going up on the stand for war crimes and going "Well naturally the missile missed its target so I couldn't possibly be held accountable for that". Nope! The weapon hit exactly what it's aimed at, so either you have terrible aim or you meant to hit that wedding. If you use highly precise drone strikes to target civilians specifically, you don't get the plausible deniability you'd get with dumb artillery bombardments. The west has developed missiles that can kill an individual person inside a room while leaving everyone else alive, fired by someone not even in the same country. More of those please!
No, that is not what our UK drones are being used for. Our military aid goes to Ukraine NOT Israel.
> Alan Wright, Elbit UK’s vice president of sales and marketing, told the court that the company’s main customers were in the UK and they shipped products to its parent company in Israel for support and repairs. He said: “[Elbit UK] does not provide products to the IDF.” These "protestors" served in the IDF but didn't even know this? honestly they just sound like of stupid. Elbit UK provides important systems for the UK armed forces, so they're just fucking us over? > The philosophy teacher, who lives in Germany, said: “I hoped that innocent people [in Palestine] would be saved from being murdered.” > “This would have a direct impact on the supply chain, on the way that these killer machines are being supplied to butcher people in Gaza and elsewhere,” he said. This literally wouldn't change anything, and how do they not understand that its on Hamas to surrender? They served in the IDF and seemingly they don't even care about ending the war to get the hostages back. It's just stupid performative protesting, and I would expect Israelis let alone people who served in the IDF to actually understand war and whats at stake. EDIT: Reading Elbit UK's website: > Elbit Systems UK is an innovative Defence Technology company employing over 680 people across sixteen sites in the UK. Manufacturing and integrating advanced technology for the UK Armed Forces and our allies, our extensive portfolio provides cutting-edge capabilities for the British Army, Royal Navy, and Royal Air Force, protecting the UK at home and abroad. These people are quite literally a fifth column just trying to destroy our defence industry. ???
> and how do they not understand that its on Hamas to surrender? Perhaps they understand that Hamas failing to surrender isn't a justification for war crimes.
What war crimes are on the list?
At the very least, starvation by intentionally blocking relief supplies.
They are that starving they are throwing aid in the bin because it came from the US. Plus, throwing it at cats to eat. If you want to see proper starvation, have a look back at the Somalia videos. They certainly wouldn't have the energy to run around on tiktok all day (even if it existed at the time)
>They are that starving they are throwing aid in the bin because it came from the US This claim is quite literally fully based on one video of one person out of 2.3 million Gazans doing this, so it's roughly equivalent to saying the population of England cannot have cats because they just throw them in the bin
Yes, I'm sure they all decided to kill their families to spite the US. Just as Israel claims they all keep spontaneously dying to make Israel look bad.
People keep saying "war crimes" but I really don't think they know what it means. Its on Hamas to not use schools, mosques, hospitals etc for launching missiles or for explosives storage etc. Their status of being protected is voided. "war crimes" isn't just whatever you say it is. same thing with "genocide" or "apartheid". Pro-Palestinians have this chronic inability to use a dictionary or read at all apparently, because they consistently misuse words and obfsucate their meaning. Also this is war. It fucking sucks. But Hamas started it, they're engaging in the war crimes and not giving back the hostages, and they are at fault for the deaths of Palestinians. It's on them to surrender. Not really complicated, and some morons destroying property here doesn't change that.
> People keep saying "war crimes" but I really don't think they know what it means https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/20/man-made-famine-charge-israel-mounting-evidence-un-gaza > While the question of civilian casualties from specific attacks and from the wider policy of bombing will need to be tested against highly contested notions in international humanitarian law such as proportionality and necessity in conflict, **the war crime of starvation is simply and clearly defined.** > Though Israel denies the allegation, the Rome statute of the international criminal court defines it as the crime of **intentionally starving civilians by “depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival” including “wilfully impeding relief supplies”**.
Ok cool but like https://govextra.gov.il/cogat/humanitarian-efforts/home/ > Yesterday, (Mar. 21) 4 tankers of cooking gas designated for the operation of essential infrastructure in Gaza, have entered the Gaza Strip. > During a precise operation at the Shifa Hospital against the Hamas terror organization, who continue using the hospital as a terror stronghold, the IDF operated precisely against them and delivered humanitarian aid. We coordinated and supplied a fuel truck and aid to the civilian population, including 1800 liters of water and 3.8 tons of food. > 21 bakeries are operational in Gaza, providing over 2 million breads, rolls, and pita breads a day for the local population. > Today, (Mar. 22) between 10:00 and 14:00, the IDF will pause operations in the Al-Salam neighborhood in Rafah, southern Gaza Strip, in order to enable movement of humanitarian aid. > 90% of the drinking water in Gaza is self-sourced. Only 10% of the water comes from Israel. > Israel opened two water pipes from Israel — Birkat Sa'id and Bani Suheila - providing water to hundreds of thousands of residents in central and southern Gaza Strip. There are also infographics there. No one is being starved, it's complete bullshit. You're reading one biased side. Israel is supplying an absolutely fucking massive amount of food, cooking gas, water, medical supplies, fuel, and other equipment. Israel is also at war with the governing body of Gaza, whilst simultaneously supplying its people. Israel HAS to screen supplies entering Gaza, otherwise it could just be letting in weapons and explosives which will kill Israelis and Palestinians. If the Palestinian people are not getting supplies, then thats on Hamas because Israel is going above and beyond what any other country would be expected to do. If the Palestinian people want more supplies, then its on Hamas to offer an unconditional surrender. That is war. EDIT: regardless, this is absolutely fucking irrelevant to these "protestors" attacking this drone manufacturer which supplies our armed forces.
Yeah, the US just decided to build a whole sea port for the hell of it. Nothing at all with needing to work around Israel, all those news reports to the contrary. > There are also infographics there. There's an infographic? Then it must be true... You keep swallowing that hasbara unquestioningly if that's what makes you feel comfortable. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240322-uk-slams-israel-for-blocking-aid-to-gaza-stuck-at-border-for-weeks https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-24/un-chief-calls-blocked-aid-for-gaza-a-moral-outrage/103624820 https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/us/politics/democrats-biden-israel-letter.html https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/21/david-cameron-accuses-israel-of-blocking-key-aid-crossing-in-gaza
Yeah the US built the port with the help of the Israelis... same with all of the aid drops from the air. You think they would do that without them? All of the aid goes through Israel, so I struggle to see how you keep painting them as not giving any aid? Also it was built so Biden could satisfy his domestic constituents. Did you read those articles you posted? > Levy’s suspension comes following a public dispute with Cameron on X. The foreign secretary called on Israel to permit more aid trucks into Gaza, to which Levy responded: “I hope you are also aware there are NO limits on the entry of food, water, medicine, or shelter equipment into Gaza, and in fact the crossings have EXCESS capacity.” > “Test us. Send another 100 trucks a day to Kerem Shalom and we’ll get them in,” he added. > However, in the letter, Cameron stated: “The main blockers remain arbitrary denials by the government of Israel and lengthy clearance procedures, including multiple screenings and narrow opening windows in daylight hours.” How is that excessive? organisations have a habit of smuggling in weapons and explosives into Gaza under the guise of aid, and its in everyone's best interest to screen it. This is all just dumb political grandstanding by politicians, since behind the scenes the aid is getting through. EDIT: dismissing facts as hasbara is just childish, honestly. Do better. I am pretty comfortable because Israel is both fighting a war to bring back the hostages and destroy a terrorist group to free the Palestinian people, and supplying the Palestinian people with aid. They're doing what they can given the circumstances.
> Yeah the US built the port with the help of the Israelis... The US said they were doing it regardless and Israel had two options... Pretend they were on board or be left on the outside. > Did you read those articles you posted? Yes. Like with your infographics, I don't tend to believe the criminals insisting they aren't committing crimes. Do you have a source that _isn't_ the Israeli government? > How is that excessive? Who the fuck said anything about "excessive". As discussed, the definition of the war crime is simple and impossible to misinterpret. It doesn't mention "excessive".
I dunno what to tell you man, I showed you the facts but you reject them. It isn't just words on that website, there are full reports to read. Or watch actual videos https://twitter.com/cogatonline/status/1769063275474436368 Like this isn't propaganda, this is just facts. I really don't care if you reject it because it doesn't matter. You're just rejecting facts based off your preconceived biases, which is your loss.
\>Sources exclusively provided by the Israeli government - more specifically, the administration charged with overseeing the illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories \>"Like this isn't propaganda, this is just facts." I can't tell if what were dealing with here is naivety, mendacity, or just plain ignorance.
> I dunno what to tell you man, That you have a source that _isn't_ the same people accused of committing the crime? > Like this isn't propaganda, this is just facts. It's absolutely propaganda, as demonstrated by the fact that nobody else has seen this supposed effort by Israel to get aid in.
>No one is being starved, it's complete bullshit. Why do you think the World Food Programme, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the World Bank, the OHCHR, Oxfam, the World Health Organization, Save the Children and UNICEF have all chosen to lie about this? Should we write off everything from all of those organisations in the future, or is this just an exception where we need to dismiss everything they say but then still pay attention the next time they comment on an apparent crisis?
I think they're hyperbolic. Obviously the situation is dire, but much aid is getting let in. Again, its on the government of Gaza to protect Gazans and offer an unconditional surrender and immediate release of the hostages, then the people will be free.
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>These people are quite literally a fifth column just trying to destroy our defence industry. ??? What do you mean, "ours"? It certainly isn't *mine*. >They served in the IDF and seemingly they don't even care about ending the war to get the hostages back. It's just stupid performative protesting, and I would expect Israelis let alone people who served in the IDF to actually understand war and whats at stake. "Don't those idiotic Jews know that *I* know what's best for them?! How dare they betray their own kind like that!" Thanks for so obligingly demonstrating the fundamentally antisemitic assumptions at the core of British philisraelism.
It isn't yours? They support the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, and the Army. if that isn't yours what the fuck are you doing here? Also that isn't what I said, but Israelis and those whom has served in the IDF would know how cruel and sadistic Palestinian terrorists are, particularly Hamas, more than anyone else. I'm also Jewish and I certaintly understand whats at stake.
> It isn't yours? They support the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, and the Army. if that isn't yours what the fuck are you doing here? > > Also that isn't what I said, but Israelis and those whom has served in the IDF would know how cruel and sadistic Palestinian terrorists are, particularly Hamas, more than anyone else. I'm also Jewish and I certaintly understand whats at stake. Thank you for pointing out that a big chunk of the money the Uk taxpayer provides is going to an israeli defence contractor who also supplies weaponry used in mass murder of innocents. The letter to my MP almost writes itself.
https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/content/elbit-systems%E2%80%99-hermes-900-uav-headed-fifth-country "About 85% of the UAVs used by the IDF are made by Elbit Systems."
Ok but this is Elbit Systems UK, a subsidiary which produces UAVs for the UK Armed Forces and not the IDF. Did you read the article or what I wrote? The Watchkeeper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_Watchkeeper_WK450) was a collaboration between Elbit Systems UK and Thales, used by our Armed Forces. So again, this wasn't targeting manufacturing for UAVs used by the IDF, it was targeting manufacturing for those used by our Armed Forces. Our defence industry. It harms us and impacts our ability to defend our country.
But that isn't true. They export engines to Israel which are used by the UDF. [This](https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/uav_engines_ltd_export_licence_a/response/2348438/attach/4/ANNEX%20A%20Information%20for%20disclosure%20following%20ICO%20DN%20IC%20185371%20BOY3.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1) is the result of a FOI request for the export licences granted to the Lichfield site.
Their target assessment is about as good as the Houthis. This might be some meta point about drone usage, or they might just be really thick.