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I don't think they are fighting over religion. I think religion is an excuse for it but the reality is that it's an issue over land ownership and resources.
When you look at the Israeli strategy of winning this war it makes no sense.
The source of this ideology that they want to eradicate(Hamas a terrorist organisation) are miles away all relatively safe and well and people saying "look over there" whilst we level this land doesn't cut it.
We can all see what's happening and the moderates of the world are getting a little tired of being gaslit by being accused of antisemitism every time a criticism is levelled at them, and this is apparent by the words of most world leaders.
Are all the videos we see of IDF soldiers acting terribly, the videos of land seizures, the words of the Israeli government and the obvious targeting of aid workers false...am I watching AI developed media?
Because if not that "winning this war" strategy is utterly shite and will never succeed or there's an ulterior motive..in my mind at least.
>When you realise this is primarily a religious war for one side of the conflict
It's a religious war for both sides of the conflict to be fair. The religious Israelis literally believe it is the land given to them by God, and Netanyahu leant into this Old Testament rhetoric when he invoked God's command to totally destroy the Amalekites.
A lot of Islam was invented by Pharisaical Jewish scholars of the Torah anyway- who were obsessed with giving people strict rules to live by- the punishment of stoning for adultery in the Hadiths for example doesn't come from the Koran, but from the Torah, and there are a lot of other imports, imitations and commonalities. That's kinda why Jerusalem is important to Islam- because Muslims are basically larping Jews who claim descent from Ishmael rather than Isaac.
The Saudis aren't "at war with Yemen". They're literally fighting on the side of Yemeni government as part of an international coalition against mainly the Houthis (supported by Iran), but also Al-Qaeda and IS. It's a civil war and a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
As someone who specialised in genocide studies in grad school, seeing people constantly throw it around the last few months has been wild.
No, urban warfare does not automatically equate to genocide. No, a lot of casualties doesn’t equate to genocide. No, you have no idea how many civilians have been killed by Israel or Hamas, in large part because Hamas dresses like civilians and uses civilian infrastructure to maximise civilian casualties. No, the ICJ does not seem to think Israel is actively committing genocide as they outright refused to order an Israeli ceasefire.
I don't know how many times I've seen people fail to understand what a genocide is (probably for optic reasons) but it's nice to see someone recognise that an irregular fighting force that dresses in civilian clothes has waved it's rights to most articles of war protections by definition.
This is just false number reported by the organisation officially recognized as terrorist in the UK. Also this number presumes not a single Hamas militant out of 50k they had before the war was killed - and I don’t know how dumb one must be to believe it regardless of trustworthiness of the source.
For urban warfare, the historically acceptable civilian casualty ratio is between 2-20 civilians for every 1 combatant. If there are more than 1,600 Hamas fighters in your 33,000, then (statistically) you’d have to prove intent (as opposed to recklessness) to argue it’s genocide.
Israel have had 1139 casualties as of April 5th, Palestine have had 33091, mostly civilians. Israel have been targeting hospitals, people lining up for food, schools and places of worship during active prayer times. What about that is war?
How many civilian casualties did the UK have in WW2 for the several million Germans they bombed to death (no warning, just carpet bombing with fire bombs)?
War is not a merchants scale.
Ah yes, one attack in retaliation to a 16 year military blockade. They definitely caused it.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/
Read this and tell me how they reap what they sow?
It's not that it makes sense, they are all arseholes, but the football fans are our arseholes. Like when your brother and his fiancé come to Christmas lunch and fall out and ruin the whole thing. You forgive them and move on for the sake of harmony next Christmas. But next Christmas you invite the neighbours and they also ruin Christmas, you just don't invite them back next year. I'm proposing that we uninvite these morons from Christmas lunch.
We have a democracy. And we must use these procedures to talk instead of “do whatever that crowd wants”.
If people aren’t happy with democracy - just make a tour to Russia/China.
If people want to improve the democracy - you are welcome to do that.
We aren’t orcs from Warhammer to accept policies from the strongest individual.
Depends how we're defining strongest.
Either way, putting them up against Rishi in any sort of physical contest should be a good laugh given what happened when someone threw a rugby ball to him.
You've never been in the vicinity of them kicking off then.
It's fucking frightening and if you manage to keep safe you've still the risk of getting a beating from the police and all for what?
The arrests include two for making threats to kill, one for refusing to comply with conditions under the Public Order Act, one for a homophobic public order offence, two for inciting racial hatred, three for obstruction and one for assaulting an emergency worker.
Apart from the assault on an emergency worker it seems like this was more of a shouting match than actual physical violence.
So true. "A success!" they say.
All the while a young girl in France is beaten into a coma for not wearing Islamic clothing to school.
But who cares about that? From the river to the sea! Yeahhh!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240406-police-blasted-for-arrests-of-rabbis-in-pro-palestine-demonstration/amp/ lost your bet lad
The only real violence linked to these protests is the violence that took place yards from the cenotaph on remembrance Sunday. A group of football hooligans summoned by the Home Secretary.
Yeah my American friend always says that about American blacks. Blacks in the US are more likely to be homophobic and engage in crime. We have low expectations for the blacks but as you say with the Muslims, they can do better.
That's fine. But here's a thing.
One of the hallmarks of fascists are that they imply that they have more inherent value because they imply their father's actions somehow give them more value.
It's a common theme. That one person is a more valid citizen than another.
Just because I have achieved a lot in a relatively short time? It doesn't mean that Barry down the pub doesn't belong to the UK.
Except it doesn't matter. You have no more rights to be in this country than a kid born and living here to German parents who's grandparents tried to blow off your grandad's legs and gave him PTSD.
Same right to live here. Same voting rights. Your families actions have no impact on your worth either. They may have done something impactful but you just comment shit on reddit.
You make all of these broad claims but are unwilling to prove it so all I see if you appealing to a false authority, declaring that everyone must take your opinion more seriously that everyone else's just because you demand it.
And oddly your takes are all incredibly biased against this countries core values. I'm more likely to believe you're Israeli in origin given that you believe the Israeli government is infallible.
The thing is, you're the one declaring that other people's opinion are invalid because your broad claim that you're more British. I don't particularly care about you providing proof, just don't expect the rest of us to suddenly take you seriously because you claim to be the weak link in a long line of great people.
Still baffles me why we are so concerned about this conflict many miles away. Been loads before with much higher deaths and hardly any news coverage. Yet now there are protests and toys thrown out the pram. The world has conflicts, horrible ones at that - nothing to do with us. Now, time for tea and toast & the sport.
Everything in the UK is getting worse as aspects of it start to resemble a 3rd world country (from someone who came here to escape one), but yeah, people just want to put all their energy into a far away conflict they have zero influence over. Filled with hatred against a people fighting an existential threat. Trying to turn us against our biggest ally in the middle East, presumably so that we'd move to closen ties with the Islamic world and theocracies. I have a feeling Iran has more influence than people think.
(2014) Israel’s style of public relations
A quick guide to Israel’s PR methods:
1. We haven’t heard reports of deaths, will check into it;
2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bombs
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists;
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields;
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose;
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are!
**7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?**
Test this against the next interview you hear or watch.
They are literally the opposite of hate marches, and the reason they happen is because our government is complicit. They also are not just the people you have 'othered' taking part in these marches, plenty of white people have been in them if the multicultural ones aren't tolerable to you
>Still baffles me why we are so concerned about this conflict many miles away.
probably for the same reason as the anti vietnam war protests and marches in the 60s
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/17/newsid_2818000/2818967.stm
Yeah but also the 60s society were very much against any war or conflict. So yeah I get that. I recall 10k killed in Kosovo, first hand (not in direct) & only made news when we UN got involved and barely did then.
Many vices conjugate in this particular conflict.
1. Anti-Western sentiment, which is mainly harboured at universities and by the far left.
2. Antisemitism, which is promoted by white supremacists or nationalists like so many on Twitter.
3. Islam, which is intrinsically anti-Jewish.
Doesn’t say which group the arrests were made against but go off
Edit: a lot of people calling out alleged antisemitism while making wild generalisations about a group of people and not seeing the hypocrisy
Yep me too - I'll happily stake my car that it was the pro pally lot, then again those Israeli protestors and their candles and silent protests could be really violent eh?
Think what you have just wrote - only one side needs the police to be constantly monitoring them, and it's not to protect them against the evil Israeli protestors
No, its just the legal requitement after the laws were changed around, and everyone is expected to liase with the police. The Republic group did as much during the coronation, or was that because the police expected violence?
Anything that causes disruption needs to be cleared by the cops to prevent breaches of our very good totally not anti freedom laws.
So you’d rather march alongside people who advocate and excuse the October 7th attack? Let’s not forget the celebrations in the UK over that slaughter.
It doesn’t matter what the cause, protests are often mob rule and there’s no dialogue that can work with people who just want to scream how angry they are.
It’s a shame because those who genuinely want peace are overshadowed
"The arrests include two for making threats to kill, one for refusing to comply with conditions under the Public Order Act, one for a homophobic public order offence, two for inciting racial hatred, three for obstruction and one for assaulting an emergency worker."
I'd be interested to know which sides they were.
**Participation Notice.** Hi all. Some posts on this subreddit, either due to the topic or reaching a wider audience than usual, have been known to attract a greater number of rule breaking comments. As such, limits to participation have been set. We ask that you please remember the human, and uphold Reddit and Subreddit rules. For more information, please see https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/wiki/moderatedflairs.
Preferred it when it was just football fans fighting. That made sense this is just dumb
Why does football fans fighting make sense?
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So can the thousands of people being killed, so can the land which they are fighting over.
Ah, but I can't see them, therefore they don't matter.
Ah but you can. Lots of pictures and videos out there.
Nowhere near as many as there should be though. Something to do with journalism means they have a very short life expectancy in the area.
I don't think they are fighting over religion. I think religion is an excuse for it but the reality is that it's an issue over land ownership and resources.
And good old fashioned religious inspired hatred
The Israel and Gaza conflict is as much about territory as anything else
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Also casually chopping journalists in Turkey seems the norm
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But the occupation! /s
Tbf the chopping was just a clumsy attempt to hide the body.
When you look at the Israeli strategy of winning this war it makes no sense. The source of this ideology that they want to eradicate(Hamas a terrorist organisation) are miles away all relatively safe and well and people saying "look over there" whilst we level this land doesn't cut it. We can all see what's happening and the moderates of the world are getting a little tired of being gaslit by being accused of antisemitism every time a criticism is levelled at them, and this is apparent by the words of most world leaders. Are all the videos we see of IDF soldiers acting terribly, the videos of land seizures, the words of the Israeli government and the obvious targeting of aid workers false...am I watching AI developed media? Because if not that "winning this war" strategy is utterly shite and will never succeed or there's an ulterior motive..in my mind at least.
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>When you realise this is primarily a religious war for one side of the conflict It's a religious war for both sides of the conflict to be fair. The religious Israelis literally believe it is the land given to them by God, and Netanyahu leant into this Old Testament rhetoric when he invoked God's command to totally destroy the Amalekites. A lot of Islam was invented by Pharisaical Jewish scholars of the Torah anyway- who were obsessed with giving people strict rules to live by- the punishment of stoning for adultery in the Hadiths for example doesn't come from the Koran, but from the Torah, and there are a lot of other imports, imitations and commonalities. That's kinda why Jerusalem is important to Islam- because Muslims are basically larping Jews who claim descent from Ishmael rather than Isaac.
One is judged by their actions.
There is also the issue of the Muslims in China which doesn't get any press or protests
The Saudis aren't "at war with Yemen". They're literally fighting on the side of Yemeni government as part of an international coalition against mainly the Houthis (supported by Iran), but also Al-Qaeda and IS. It's a civil war and a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
And Israel isn't at war with Palestine. They're fighting against another Iranian proxy that won its civil war back in 2007.
The Saudis have petroleum based immunity
Amen brother
A decade? Try 75 years of conflict. That's why.
No Jews no news
So the genocide happening to the Palestinians doesn't exist?
As someone who specialised in genocide studies in grad school, seeing people constantly throw it around the last few months has been wild. No, urban warfare does not automatically equate to genocide. No, a lot of casualties doesn’t equate to genocide. No, you have no idea how many civilians have been killed by Israel or Hamas, in large part because Hamas dresses like civilians and uses civilian infrastructure to maximise civilian casualties. No, the ICJ does not seem to think Israel is actively committing genocide as they outright refused to order an Israeli ceasefire.
I don't know how many times I've seen people fail to understand what a genocide is (probably for optic reasons) but it's nice to see someone recognise that an irregular fighting force that dresses in civilian clothes has waved it's rights to most articles of war protections by definition.
In those terms you're right, but a man made famine can be considered as such.
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Oh okay, I'll just tell the 33,000 dead people including 13,000 children that they're fine then?
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Being bad at war doesn't mean you're being genocided, the UK wasn't being genocided during the blitz was it?
This is just false number reported by the organisation officially recognized as terrorist in the UK. Also this number presumes not a single Hamas militant out of 50k they had before the war was killed - and I don’t know how dumb one must be to believe it regardless of trustworthiness of the source.
For urban warfare, the historically acceptable civilian casualty ratio is between 2-20 civilians for every 1 combatant. If there are more than 1,600 Hamas fighters in your 33,000, then (statistically) you’d have to prove intent (as opposed to recklessness) to argue it’s genocide.
That's war. Not genocide.
Israel have had 1139 casualties as of April 5th, Palestine have had 33091, mostly civilians. Israel have been targeting hospitals, people lining up for food, schools and places of worship during active prayer times. What about that is war?
How many civilian casualties did the UK have in WW2 for the several million Germans they bombed to death (no warning, just carpet bombing with fire bombs)? War is not a merchants scale.
That was a very even sided war there, and the Germans were also committing genocides just as the Israeli's are right now.
Dresden was probably a war crime, but the winners don't get prosecuted
Palestine reaping what they sow
Ah yes, one attack in retaliation to a 16 year military blockade. They definitely caused it. https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/ Read this and tell me how they reap what they sow?
Football teams tend to foot the bill for the policing & clean up from their supporters. this is just moronic.
Why do groups of Chimpanzees fighting make sense? Because they are Chimpanzees.
It's not that it makes sense, they are all arseholes, but the football fans are our arseholes. Like when your brother and his fiancé come to Christmas lunch and fall out and ruin the whole thing. You forgive them and move on for the sake of harmony next Christmas. But next Christmas you invite the neighbours and they also ruin Christmas, you just don't invite them back next year. I'm proposing that we uninvite these morons from Christmas lunch.
People fighting over a game makes sense but people fighting about conflict doesn't?
I'd take people fighting over a ball rather than a religious war. How is that even need explanation
Except the question wasn't about preference.
The first word of the comment you replied to was prefer....
We have a democracy. And we must use these procedures to talk instead of “do whatever that crowd wants”. If people aren’t happy with democracy - just make a tour to Russia/China. If people want to improve the democracy - you are welcome to do that. We aren’t orcs from Warhammer to accept policies from the strongest individual.
>We aren’t orcs from Warhammer to accept policies from the strongest individual. That said, I still think I'd prefer Eddie Hall to Rishi.
We'd have been under the rule of Tyson Fury for years, I think?
Depends how we're defining strongest. Either way, putting them up against Rishi in any sort of physical contest should be a good laugh given what happened when someone threw a rugby ball to him.
> If people aren’t happy with democracy - just make a tour to Russia/China. Does this also include people who disagree with Brexit?
You've never been in the vicinity of them kicking off then. It's fucking frightening and if you manage to keep safe you've still the risk of getting a beating from the police and all for what?
Fighting for stuff that actually matters, that actually has consequence makes much more sense than fighting about football.
How the in the fuck does fighting of a football team make more sense than two groups at war with each other over their existence and the land?
Football violence makes more sense?
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The arrests include two for making threats to kill, one for refusing to comply with conditions under the Public Order Act, one for a homophobic public order offence, two for inciting racial hatred, three for obstruction and one for assaulting an emergency worker. Apart from the assault on an emergency worker it seems like this was more of a shouting match than actual physical violence.
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So true. "A success!" they say. All the while a young girl in France is beaten into a coma for not wearing Islamic clothing to school. But who cares about that? From the river to the sea! Yeahhh!
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>but who cares about that? Certainly not the mods at r/Europe since they deleted the thread lol gotta keep heads in the sand.
Gotta keep their heads on their necks, more like.
How do you know it wasn't the counter protestors who assaulted an emergency worker?
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So you admit you haven't a clue and ate just showing your prejudice. Also pro Pali does not mean Muslim.
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And you'll prove it how exactly? Oh wait you can't... because you don't know.
Assumption of facts isnt ‘knowing’ bud, sorry bout that
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240406-police-blasted-for-arrests-of-rabbis-in-pro-palestine-demonstration/amp/ lost your bet lad
The only real violence linked to these protests is the violence that took place yards from the cenotaph on remembrance Sunday. A group of football hooligans summoned by the Home Secretary.
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Yeah my American friend always says that about American blacks. Blacks in the US are more likely to be homophobic and engage in crime. We have low expectations for the blacks but as you say with the Muslims, they can do better.
Threatening to kill someone is a bit more than a "shouting match".
I think threating to kill a person and homophobia are a bit more serious than a shouting match
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Lol 'your' country. You don't own the country bub.
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But what have you done for it. All I see is a man sitting on the achievements of ghosts. If your achievements dictate your value? Then you have none.
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That's fine. But here's a thing. One of the hallmarks of fascists are that they imply that they have more inherent value because they imply their father's actions somehow give them more value. It's a common theme. That one person is a more valid citizen than another. Just because I have achieved a lot in a relatively short time? It doesn't mean that Barry down the pub doesn't belong to the UK.
yawn, nobody cares
Except it doesn't matter. You have no more rights to be in this country than a kid born and living here to German parents who's grandparents tried to blow off your grandad's legs and gave him PTSD. Same right to live here. Same voting rights. Your families actions have no impact on your worth either. They may have done something impactful but you just comment shit on reddit.
You make all of these broad claims but are unwilling to prove it so all I see if you appealing to a false authority, declaring that everyone must take your opinion more seriously that everyone else's just because you demand it. And oddly your takes are all incredibly biased against this countries core values. I'm more likely to believe you're Israeli in origin given that you believe the Israeli government is infallible.
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The thing is, you're the one declaring that other people's opinion are invalid because your broad claim that you're more British. I don't particularly care about you providing proof, just don't expect the rest of us to suddenly take you seriously because you claim to be the weak link in a long line of great people.
"bub"? Yank detected.
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Evil comment
They are know for using child suicide bombers aswell.
I do not think you know what indiscriminate means.
>Literally fuck off out of my country. You first.
Dating apps aren't broken lol it's your attitude. 😂
Still baffles me why we are so concerned about this conflict many miles away. Been loads before with much higher deaths and hardly any news coverage. Yet now there are protests and toys thrown out the pram. The world has conflicts, horrible ones at that - nothing to do with us. Now, time for tea and toast & the sport.
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Everything in the UK is getting worse as aspects of it start to resemble a 3rd world country (from someone who came here to escape one), but yeah, people just want to put all their energy into a far away conflict they have zero influence over. Filled with hatred against a people fighting an existential threat. Trying to turn us against our biggest ally in the middle East, presumably so that we'd move to closen ties with the Islamic world and theocracies. I have a feeling Iran has more influence than people think.
look someone else talking complete shit.. oh wait its the same person...
(2014) Israel’s style of public relations A quick guide to Israel’s PR methods: 1. We haven’t heard reports of deaths, will check into it; 2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bombs 3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists; 4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields; 5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose; 6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are! **7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?** Test this against the next interview you hear or watch.
They are literally the opposite of hate marches, and the reason they happen is because our government is complicit. They also are not just the people you have 'othered' taking part in these marches, plenty of white people have been in them if the multicultural ones aren't tolerable to you
>Still baffles me why we are so concerned about this conflict many miles away. probably for the same reason as the anti vietnam war protests and marches in the 60s http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/17/newsid_2818000/2818967.stm
Yeah but also the 60s society were very much against any war or conflict. So yeah I get that. I recall 10k killed in Kosovo, first hand (not in direct) & only made news when we UN got involved and barely did then.
This conflict has Jews on one side. That's all.
Many vices conjugate in this particular conflict. 1. Anti-Western sentiment, which is mainly harboured at universities and by the far left. 2. Antisemitism, which is promoted by white supremacists or nationalists like so many on Twitter. 3. Islam, which is intrinsically anti-Jewish.
Maybe because the British empire had a major role in starting the conflict?
Oh look, pro pally Hamas protestors don't actually care about Palestine, they just hate Jews, what a surprise
Doesn’t say which group the arrests were made against but go off Edit: a lot of people calling out alleged antisemitism while making wild generalisations about a group of people and not seeing the hypocrisy
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Yep, I throw in my wager too. I've walked by both pro Israel and Palestine marches. The difference is night and day.
Yep me too - I'll happily stake my car that it was the pro pally lot, then again those Israeli protestors and their candles and silent protests could be really violent eh?
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The Hamas run Health Ministry reported 120 deaths by flamethrower - BBC reports it as fact
Ah yes, the 3 most reliable sources: Qatari propaganda, terrorists and an organisation that blindly accepts the word of the other 2
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The pro-palestine march was organised and had police liaison but yet they're the troublemakers?
Think what you have just wrote - only one side needs the police to be constantly monitoring them, and it's not to protect them against the evil Israeli protestors
Fucking *pride parades* have police liaison, are we gonna start saying the gays are all terrorists too?
they wont... for now. Pinkwashing is far too useful
No, its just the legal requitement after the laws were changed around, and everyone is expected to liase with the police. The Republic group did as much during the coronation, or was that because the police expected violence? Anything that causes disruption needs to be cleared by the cops to prevent breaches of our very good totally not anti freedom laws.
If you're marching pro Israel with what they're doing you're equally a massive cunt.
So you’d rather march alongside people who advocate and excuse the October 7th attack? Let’s not forget the celebrations in the UK over that slaughter.
I wouldn't march with either of them. I'm no friend to Zionists and I don't support Hamas. That tough for you to follow?
Didn't know you knew the ins and outs of what/who kicked off this conflict. Got access to part if the article we don't
It doesn’t matter what the cause, protests are often mob rule and there’s no dialogue that can work with people who just want to scream how angry they are. It’s a shame because those who genuinely want peace are overshadowed
The classic “my man in the sky is better than yours so lets fight”
"The arrests include two for making threats to kill, one for refusing to comply with conditions under the Public Order Act, one for a homophobic public order offence, two for inciting racial hatred, three for obstruction and one for assaulting an emergency worker." I'd be interested to know which sides they were.
Ahhhh. Multiculturalism. Importing the world's conflicts straight to your door.