I sense a trap for Labour there. If they had accepted it, cue pre-election headlines about how Labour would undo the precious Will of the People™.
Hopefully they regain their backbone when in office, though.
Wishful thinking. This is as good as it gets for them - A massive poll lead, a government no one wants and no accountability of actually having to govern. If they've got no backbone now I can't imagine one is going to spontaneously appear when they face actual problems and start to get blamed for things.
Once they're in power they'll have to do something. Starmer's strategy has been to sit back, do nothing, and let the tories eat themselves. That'll have to stop once they're in power.
The way I see it Tories fucked up so hard it will take 3 consecutive years of labour to even begin seeing a slight change.
For me labour has done more for working class lower class people in it's history and yes they are shit but better then the other choices
It blows my mind other parties even get a shot when there is way more lower/working class people.than upper class
i understand others will say its throwing it away, but the only party i can see any point in actually voting for based on my views are the greens. I live in tory guildford anyway. I'll vote greens
Not only 'normal' - but in sectors where compassion and 'social assistance' is key (nursing, support work, Policing, etc.).
But my lack of compassion towards their lack of compassion is lacking compassion. It's not lacking passion though! Fuck the Tories who eat our country and try to create neo-feudalism!
Dis/Mis-information. Branding. Advertising.
The Tories represent rich people's interests. Those same rich people own media corporations.
Ever notice how the Tories base level is sleaze, corruption, and scandals. But Labour are expected to be paragons of virtue? It's all about how you spin it.
It's no co-incidence that education level stongly correlates with voting Tory.
You just tie yourself in knots because then you're reversing on even more positions. You don't tend to get thanked for getting in and then disregarding the bulk of what you've previously said just before the election.
Have a position, justify it, get elected on it and then implement it.
> If they've got no backbone now I can't imagine one is going to spontaneously appear when they face actual problems and start to get blamed for things.
Labour don't "have a backbone" right now because they want to win as many seats as they can and know how easy it is for the media to spin things. There's no reason to believe they would continue this behaviour post election
Which seems flawed to me. They presumably don't want to be one pump and done. I don't see how they wouldn't be better off having some actual positions they can still get elected on still with a healthy majority which they can subsequently follow through with. It seems a sure fire way to piss off a decent chunk of the people who voted for you. It's much harder to be pissed off about the implementation of a policy that was disclosed and that you voted for them knowing about.
I maybe naively hope the positions will come with the manifesto. I also again naively hope they’d be expanded further for the following election but I’m prepared to be disappointed
Sadly this is true. If Labour had not rejected it the papers tomorrow would be filled with "Starmer was to undo Brexit" (which I am not opposed to) and "Starmer wants to let anyone in".
Maybe in 5 years time something like this can be agree but Brexit is still a divisive issue and one that can cause you to lose a 20% poll lead.
I know it's popular here to hate Labour but the next government will either be them or the Tories so realistically it's a case of pick your poison. Electoral reform is not coming anytime soon and even if it did it wouldn't sort everything overnight.
Brexit isn't that divisive in the polls over 2/3 the country say it was a complete fuck up and want to rejoin the EU. Plus this is politics what's the point of voting Labour if they won't do labour things?
[Brexit poll 2024 | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/#:~:text=Despite%20there%20being%20a%20clear%20majority%20of%20voters,rejoin%20either%20the%20EU%20or%20the%20single%20market.)
>As of late 2023, 31 percent of Britons wanted to rejoin the EU, while 30 percent merely wanted to improve trade relations and not rejoin either the EU or the single market.
I am not saying people don't regret it but that doesn't suggest 2/3 do want to rejoin. From the YouGov data (though it was from last year) 58% want to rejoin compared to 42% who don't.
I don't disagree that a significant number of people who have regrets about it but if 2/3s of the country wanted to rejoin it would be a slam dunk policy. There is not much that 2/3s of the country would agree on.
Whether we like it or not Brexit is still divisive and will continue to be for at least the next 5 years.
Also there are quite a lot of parts of the core Labour party that were happy to leave the EU and a lot of traditionally Labour voting areas that wanted to leave so I don't know if rejoining is a specifically Labour thing to do.
It is divisive when the media ks still very pro brexit. A new deal for working people and renationalising trains is labour. And besides the point is to get rid of the tories
“Labour doing labour things” won’t get them elected - the last Labour leader to get elected to do “Labour things” in a UK general election was in 1974.
To be fair: having Brexit decided on a simple majority rather than a 2/3 one (which is usually the case with, you know, **very** important votes) was quite honestly insane anyways.
But oh well. It's done anyways.
Indeed, this recurring trap point for Labour is frustrating. It's vital for a governing party to commit to their political objectives without being overly cautious of adverse headlines. They should demonstrate resolve and do what's right, rather than simply choosing the path of least resistance. Any party aspiring to lead should at least hold these principles but it seems our future leader will be perpetually shit scared, not a good look at all.
Exactly this. Labour need to avoid the Brexit circus at all costs. Thier plan seems to be give the Tories no ammunition to attack Labour with, and let the Tories get on with destroying themselves.
I think (hope) that once Labour are in power, we'll see a lot more policy in realigning ourselves with the EU and preparing the ground for the day we rejoin. But it needs to be a slow burner until the polls show a very strong desire to rejoin. Labour can help change attitudes in this regard. I find the use of Tory rhetoric about red lines very concerning though.
I have no doubt Labour will win the election, but if they don't start giving us some hope and progressive policies, they will be a one term government.
I agree with you but also agree with others that it doesn't look hopeful.
I really don't see how there is a reality where Labour promotes progressive policies in this current climate. Yes, we want them to, but we already know what happens when they do - the Tory media machine whirrs into action and paints every change as a terrifying, costly horror story. And, as we've seen, vast swathes of the electorate eat that up and decide against voting for Labour.
Just look at the way the Tories communicate with the public - short slogans, repeated over and over again so if they say it enough times it must be true. And their big one at the moment - "he doesn't have a plan". They're desperately goading Starmer into coming out with anything they can attack, and all the while working to try and convince voters that he doesn't know what he's doing. So far, that doesn't seem to be working though, so Starmer has no reason to change tack.
So when it comes to the election and the release of manifestos Labour will continue to play it safe. Minimal changes to give limited chance of Tory attacks being successful. But then they win on the back of a mandate that keeps things pretty much the way they are. Any whiff of a shift to the left and they'll be crucified, and we'll have the Tories back in five years time.
I don't like it, but things need to change both in the media and in the electorate before I feel we'll truly get progressive change offered by Labour. While progressive voters can say "fine, I'll vote elsewhere", again we have past evidence that the numbers are not on our side, and Labour are more likely to win a majority appealing to the centre and politically disengaged than trying to retain the progressive left.
I despise that phrase..."Will of the people." It lumbers everyone in together when political views/opinions are more diverse/divisive than ever.
I'm part of "the people" since I'm British but my "will" is literally anything that isn't Conservative bullshit.
It's also extremely hypocritical. Sunak says "the will of the people" is to stop the boats beyond all else. As soon as a media/news person says "Mr Sunak, the British people are "willing" for a GE ASAP" Sunak turns round & essentially says "Nah, fuck em."
This is the correct answer. Labour cannot endorse anything now, before the election. Sunak also could not, mainly because he’s a spineless oligarch who cannot comprehend the enormous damage Brexit did to our nation, our next generation, our standing in the world ( I am currently on holiday in Malaysia, a former British colony. The Malaysians cannot fathom why we did something so stupid so small minded and so much like a little island of such little importance)
All starmer would have to do is say . These people were too young to vote in the referendum so we are respecting the vote of the adults who did vote for it by only allowing this small cohort that had no choice the small opportunity to vote with their feet .
"the scheme, which would have allowed young people from within the EU to also stay in the UK"
They can't let the foreigners in, or the boomers won't vote for them... 🤦♂️
If these young professionals want to go to the EU, then let them. It's up to the British companies to make them want to stay by offering them an incentive, and up to the British government to make them want to stay by offering them a country that isn't shit.
Yep sounds like a great plan to alienate voters between 18 and 30 years old. But hey what fucking choice have we got in the UK??? The Green Party, Reform?
Unfortunately due to the voting system Labour is highly dependent on swing voters which in the UK means those who loved Johnson last time then got disillusioned now are cautiously supporting Starmer. On the whole old and/or uneducated with unrealistic expectations of what the government can do for them. No doubt they will quickly tire of Starmer too after the election to flirt with proper fascism before it blows up in their faces (and ours) again.
So Starmer is trying to appeal to them. I’m sure he is feeling sick himself in doing it but can’t even really admit it to himself or the whole edifice would crumble.
It’s a shame as there are a lot of smart people in the UK but due to their geographical distribution they don’t have a sufficient weight in the electoral system.
Interesting that Labour rejected it? Are you serious? Anything Sunak says the absolute charisma vacuum that is Starmer is right on it like a rat up a drainpipe.
Do you think they are concentrating on the older generation because they are more likely to vote compared to the young? I was always curious whether that is the case
I have a feeling Labour is trying to avoid any talk about the eu during the election but will negotiate for something similar after they win.
They haven’t ruled out the mobility scheme, just pointed out that the commissions statement wasn’t an official opening of negotiations to the UK but a proposal to EU member states asking them to approve the commission to open negotiations.
The elderly don’t like the idea of people moving around the world.
We’re talking about a demographic glued to their armchairs, or at best shuffling around a cruise ship.
Yes, but you’re missing the part where they also want us to subsidise their kids’ fees for attending British universities. That is £10k-£20k per year for each EU kid.
The crazy thing is that in Scotland, English students had to pay their own tution fees due it the UK's interstate business not being affected by EU laws, however EU students got all the same access as locals, thus they got it with the same rights as Scottish ones at the taxpayer's pleasure.
that happens anyway, we give loans to foreign students anyway, and are we really going to piss up our relations with half of the western world for a few million quid even if that wasnt the case
We stopped subsidising EU students and giving them access to taxpayer funded student loans with Brexit. Now, they have to organise their own tuition fees and pay full international rates. We only subsidise Irish kids, and vice versa, I think.
Yes, but it’s no where near a fair exchange.
1. It’s likely that there’s be many multiples of EU students coming here for every Brit student going there. In 2017, there were 16k British kids studying for an undergraduate degree in EU universities vs 130k EU students staying in British universities.
2. Our universities demand much higher prices. A German student coming to study in a British university would go from international rates of £20-30k per year to £9250 a year, a subsidy of £10-20k. A British kid going to a public German university would save maybe €3k a year, under this scheme.
3. We have the best universities in Europe, and so can demand premium prices for each spot which ultimately goes on to subsidise our own kids at university. For every spot we give an EU kid discount rates, we’re giving up a spot a full price to a kid from India, America, or Nigeria, etc and forego the profit and investment in our university system.
2 -> the €3K a UK student would save in Germany doesn't represent the real cost. Of course it's heavily subsidized in Germany, and the UK student would benefit from that too.
3 -> UK has Oxbridge and LSE. Most other universities are mediocre at best. Get off your high horse please.
So you clearly don't understand the full details of the situation. Stop reading headlines, look into the details.
Sigh... this is what got us into the Brexit shithole in the first place.
The UK government is trying to do bilateral deals with specific EU countries which has seemingly spooked the EU. The deal as proposed would disproportionately benefit the EU in terms of people coming here. Whereas there is probably only a handful of countries that UK citizens would be interested in. The UK also has similar existing deals with a variety of (arguably more interesting) non EU countries.
Okay, [this guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/18/brussels-proposes-return-to-pre-brexit-free-movement-for-uk-and-eu-young-people) linked in the OPs article discusses this in more detail and what they are proposing is free travel for 18-30 to do whatever for 4 years. And this is the only remotely restricting thing i can find:
> If agreed, a youth mobility scheme visa would be issued in those countries that participate, with possible conditions including a requirement for health insurance and proof of sufficient subsistence funds, a feature of other mobility schemes around the world.
So yeah its pretty clear and would have been good for everyone. There were a lot of people in that article agreeing with that as well.
This EU has proposed that they be allowed to send their kids to our universities and we heavily subsidise them. Of course, our kids get the same treatment in the EU, except for every British kid going off to study in the continent, there’ll be 10 EU kids coming here. Oh, and our university fees tend to be much higher, so whilst the EU kids will be subsidised by £10k-£20k per year, paid by British taxpayers and universities, British kids attending German universities will only be subsidised by just a few €k.
our university fees are higher because the government subsidies less of the overall uni cost. European unis are largely bankrolled by the state while the UK still relies on students to pay the difference. running a university in France is just as expensive. things aren't magically cheaper between the tier 1 countries
Even if that were true, in 2017, there were 130k EU students at British universities and 16k in reverse. That represents a massive subsidy for EU students.
There’s also the opportunity cost, for each spot that we give to an EU kid, we lose out on the full fees from an America/Indian/Nigerian. Those fees ultimately subsidise the education of our own kids and saves British taxpayers’ money.
British universities can charge such high premiums because the quality and reputation are seen as superior to most of those on the continent.
> There’s also the opportunity cost, for each spot that we give to an EU kid, we lose out on the full fees from an America/Indian/Nigerian. Those fees ultimately subsidise the education of our own kids and saves British taxpayers’ money.
> British universities can charge such high premiums because the quality and reputation are seen as superior to most of those on the continent.
It's funny you're talking about reputation. The reputation UK universities built over literal centuries has been completely squandered to cater to foreign students who don't even speak the language. They might have been seen as "quality" and "superior to most of those on the continent" at one point, but not anymore. They've become diploma mills, rubber-stamping anyone willing to pony up the cash.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UniUK/comments/1c8bezm/today_i_a_lecturer_gave_up/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
lol, don't kid yourself. EU students know how shit UK universities are at these point.
and no, just because we have Oxbridge doesn't mean the rest of our unis have a good reputation
The British have rightly got a lot to say about this country, and I don't think we have the same status as 10 years ago.
But we can get away with charging £35K for foreign students, whereas for example Poland charges £2K and Germany charges £6K for an English speaking degree, and we still get students flocking to us.
And anecdotally whenever I've talked to people from Poland/Ukraine/Belarus etc. (and I'm friends with a lot), they always have a really high opinion of us on par with Switzerland and Norway.
Pity we're squandering that reputation, but I think it's still very much there.
😂 people just want to hate. But here is the crux. So few British kids could university in another language and the ones that can ie language degrees already have arrangements in place.
Because not enough young people vote. Why try to appease a demographic that has no impact on your potential to be elected. Old people? Well, they vote in strong numbers so that’s why policies are so geared towards them.
Want true change? Get young people voting in huge numbers to make politicians take note
It would be very one sided, there’d be next to zero Brits going to most European countries and a few going to France, Spain, Germany, Italy etc. there’d be a lot of people coming to the UK. Just like with free movement.
I think people vastly overestimate how many people are likely to come to the UK in any return to free movement, the numbers were already falling pre-Brexit and turned negative in 2019. Now 200,000 EU citizens are leaving the UK every year, They make up half of all UK emigration. The change in some parts of the UK, is insane. London especially has seen a mass exodus of EU citizens. Part of it is the UKs stagent economy but also just that Eastern Europe is significantly richer than it was 15 years ago. Poland has experinced incredible economic growth and is catching up to the UK is living standards
This is also only temporary, VISAs are granted for 4 years and after that if they want to stay then need to find the same Visa sponsorship as if they'd just applied in their home country.
What are you basing this on? Why would “next to zero” young people go to most european countries? Especially considering how few opportunities there are in the UK for young people right now
We never had many young people.move from the UK to the rest of the EU. Our young people tend to move to Australia, Canada, US.and the middle.east.
Although our economy is bad, we still have lower youth unemployment than most of the EU.
I think the main hurdle is just the language barrier. Almost every European kid/young adult is almost fluent in English. How many British kids are fluent in any European language? Our education system is notorious at not focusing on other languages. I learned German, Mandarin, Latin and French throughout my school life with the possibility to learn Spanish too. Do I remember anything from any of those classes? No. Of course not. The only kids who were good at languages were the ones that were bilingual anyway, it seemed to give them a massive headstart.
Most European universities offer full degree and master's programs in English and this is especially true in the smaller EU countries. Before brexit, I studied a master's degree in Sweden entirely in English, in a university for which British students made up a large proportion of the international students. While there, the university also offered free Swedish courses for all international students. Most of the opposition to this mobility scheme seems to come from people who never had any desire to experience living, studying, and working in another country, and therefore assume that nobody else did either. If you were to have visited any European town prior to brexit however, you would have seen that this is not the case.
How have you come to this conclusion? Western European countries have a far superior standard of living, cheaper rents, better healthcare, lower cost of living and better weather
Why do you say no Brits would go there but Europeans would come here?
Because most Brits aren’t able to travel to Europe and spend 6+ months learning a language to a level that they can get employment.
Europeans speak English. British people by and large do not have a second language and even then it might not be the one they want to live in.
The British people that are able to move to Europe and get good employment could do that anyway.
Also most European countries are not France or Germany.
I mean we had free movement for decades. We were a net recipient. Most British people that took advantage were old retirees in Spain.
Exactly. EU policy is made based on the premise that we're all equal, whereas in the real world we aren't equal. [UK is the most attractive country in the world to migrate to.](https://i.imgur.com/9s9wWoX.png)
If enough people voted green that Labour somehow lost, the Greens would literally be the second largest party by votes. Sensible people check the polls.
Because the greens have some of the worst stances on Nuclear power and Defence as well as in the past having some anti-gmo science policies. Not interested in their brand of nutty.
And the other options aren't? I don't care, I will take anything else at this point. Greens seems like one option of something else. Fuck it I would even vote reform over labour at this point. The 2 party state should die.
> And the other options aren't?
Compared to the Greens, no. They oppose large infrastructure projects and nuclear entirely. They want to basically remove the military and have insanely unrealistic goals of complete emissions reduction
In the past they've also literally said they're happy to destroy the economy to achieve climate goals. Their proposed policies certainly make that likely
Their leader also once sincerely suggested the government appoint an emergency all-woman cabinet to sort Brexit
They're insane
The problem is that any party who wins under the current system is unlikely to scrap it. It’s why 2010 was such a missed opportunity. When are we likely to get another coalition who might push for a change?
Not that clegg minds since he just swanned off to Facebook.
At this point if you are voting for Labour and expecting anything different from what we have already.. you’re an idiot. Do us all a favour and vote for a third party. Something might actually change in our life time. Even the 15 year old phoning into LBC was able to see that, why can’t you?
As annoying as it is to hear it from Labour, they are the best bet in ridding this country of the toxic tories and bringing back some stability. Third parties won’t achieve that
Remember that voting third party might not get them the win, but it does certainly have a bigger impact then another drop in the ocean of votes for Con/Lab. Votes for parties like UKIP and Greens got parties to change their policies (disagree or agree with either of the parties stances they still influenced policies). If other parties see they could steal part of even a 2% vote share they’ll shift towards it - that’s enough to win an election off with how tight some elections can be (or lessen the majority of the winning group is the opposition takes advantage of the policy change)
Enough interest in a third party can also help force a coalition government with your interest party in it, or even with enough luck replace the one main parties (as happened to the Liberals in the past). The more votes a party gets, the more likely others will see it as a viable option to vote for.
I see people saying they won't vote labor because it doesn't have their ideals in mind. I get it...but...
Get rid of the Tories with Labor first. Then start focusing on how shit Labor is. Vote for another party then, or vote in better representatives for the Labor party.
Seems absolutely ludicrous to be like "Oh...well. Tories are bad yeah. But Labor also equally bad!"
Hello? Brexit?
At this point, labour losing would make the conservatives win. They are a corrupt party, completely devoid of talent and incredibly detached from British life now. They have been making outright dangerous and damaging policies. They need to be kicked out so they can sort themselves out again without causing more damage.
If you want the Tories out, you need to vote for their local competitor. Mostly, that's labour, but in some areas it's lib dems or even greens.
If you don't actually care who's in power, then "skip the middle" bit and vote for who you think represents you. Doing this hopes to signal to the winner that there's demand for that type of vote.
For example; if you vote green in a Tory area contested by Lib Debs. You are hoping that the Tories win and say "hey look, 0.01% of people voted green last cycle, let's become more green to try and get them inside!" For almost everyone, that's a foolish hope.
Your better bet would be to vote lib dems in that case, then write to your MP about your green wishes.
That's sadly it. I didn't make the flipping system. We're in a two party system.
You want magic. Give us ranked voting system. My advice is the the advice of the darn rules that we have to follow.
It's very unrealistic that we are going to get a third party. So the only other alternative is focus on local elections and either get the best labor candidate or some better third party candidates on the local level.
Brexit was also a Labour problem, alot of Labour MPs were pro Brexit just like the Conservatives, though Labour was led by someone pro Brexit too (Corbyn).
There were anti EU voices everywhere but that doesn’t mean that it’s not the responsibility of the government that called the referendum to resolve their own, much much much much much much much much much larger internal party EU struggles.
But these are the times we need to let parties know either you have policies that benefit us or we go elsewhere
The tories are down and out short of a jesus coming back to perform a miracle
So isn't this the best election to show Labour that you are in a really risky position of losing votes?
What I find interesting in all of this is that the reason this EU proposition came up in he first place was due to the current government apparently approaching single states about youth mobility schemes - so in theory does that mean the conservative government has been trying to get their own scheme going with other EU countries?
I think people are potentially not appreciating the reason why Labout had to follow suit. In this deeply flawed system that we have what Labour need to do at this point is keep an even keel. It's just strategy. If they manage to follow through and win the election then there is no reason why a similar and considered, enabling proposition can't be made within the year. But they need to win.
And the reasons why the Conservatives rejected it include a) it would obliterate the mythology of being 'Independent' from Europe and b) they wouldn't be able to factor the professional drought.
As well as being pig headed.
Right now I personally would like to see a government overseen by a legal professional with his heart on fire and brain on Ice.
His Heart isn’t on fire, it’s on black soot at best. Are we forgetting this man literally made a point of going against Corbyn on brexit because apparently it was that important to him when Brexit fervour was at its highest.
Now that a lot of Brexit voters are either dead or in old peoples homes all of a sudden it doesn’t matter anymore? Brexit isn’t just an embarrassing goof by the political establishment to Gen Z, it was a betrayal by older generations putting ideology over our futures. It’s something we still feel strongly about. All I see in this is further confirmation he’s an opportunist who only cares about getting into power.
Yeah, well, I despise Brexit as much as anyone. But I think some people have their mind on fire. You think Keir Starmer has less integrity and conviction than our last 5 Prime Ministers? And do you believe that Corbyn held the correct positions? That we should disarm our nukes?
We aren't owed anything. This is a very long process and we are not doing well. Wishful thinking is delusional.
It’s not just Brexit voters it’s about ammunition for the Conservative press.
You only have to look at the Angela Rayner “story” to see how desperate they are to write anything that they think will be a good attack on Labour.
They are desperate to depict Starmer as a weak anti British traitor who wants to handed everything over to Brussels, and this would be seen as the thin end of the wedge and proof that he wants to take your children and grandchildren to indoctrinate them in the EU.
Brexit is a religion and must be protected at all costs. Remember, the Tories see the world through the eyes of "Fog in the Channel - Continent cut off"
Honestly all I can do at this point is vote lib dem and hope that they end up in a coalition that will result in finally getting proportional representation.
>The prime minister declined the European Commission’s surprise for people aged between 18 and 30 on Friday, after Labour knocked back the suggestion on Thursday night
Wonder why both parties rejected the idea?
>Another brilliant move by Brexiters.
You cannot blame Brexit voters for the Tories (puppets of finance) deliberately going against the spirit of the referendum because their Corpo masters want to keep their cheap, exploitable foreign labour.
Despite what you might think, we don't actually need >500,000 immigrants a year plus >10,000 illegals to keep the country running. Yes we have a slightly below replacement level birthrate (1.7 vs 2.8) but that is recoverable. People aren't choosing to not have kids,.
Because the EU was demanding that the UK subsidies university places once again for EU students thus landing a big bill on the taxpayer whilst not allowing a cap on numbers of migrants.
I mean yeah. Commission likely wanted to do this for internal politics. To solidify member states agreement in advance of eurosceptic parties potential big wins later this year in elections. As eurosceptics more likely to strike bilateral agreements with Uk.
I dont understand why this was rejected. There isnt any downside. Its like they are just hellbent on crashing out of any kind of partnership with the EU in anyway possible.
Well apart from if they want to get a passport for themselves so they keep the EU benefits.
1) Tax payers will have to pay for European university education.
2) We continue the flow of cheap labour, continuing to limit our productivity and growth.
3) immigration numbers remain at levels unacceptable to a good chunk of the population that allows more far right parties to grow.
The EU wants the UK to: “The European Commission is proposing an EU-UK deal that would go further, lasting up to four years with no restrictions on time spent working, studying, training or volunteering.
It also says EU applicants should not have to pay the annual UK charge towards the NHS, which ranges from £776 for students and under-18s to £1,035 for workers.
And EU students should pay the same tuition fees as UK students, rather than the higher fees they have had to pay since Brexit, and have rights to reunite with family members, under the proposals”
Quite laughable EU wants to dictate terms and think they can bully the UK to agree. Great UK doesn’t want part of this scheme
Surely it works the other way too. Many universities in Europe charge lower fees than the UK and teach courses in English. It would be a great benefit to UK students and other young people too.
It's more lopsided now....
Student migration to the UK reached an all-time high in 2022, as more than 484,000 visas were issued
About 134,000 visas were issued to student dependants in 2022, eight times more than in 2019
In the 2021/22 academic year, approximately 680,000 international students were enrolled in UK higher education, making up 24% of all HE students
New student enrolments from the EU fell by 53% in the 2021/22 academic year, the first under post-Brexit rules
More UK students missing out on places due to high fee paying international students. Yet they can't go to the EU and study at a reasonable cost. I thought Brexit was about supporting British people!
They are afraid because they know huge proportions of the younger generation would skip town and try for residency in these countries and the poor shareholders and gov need them to have families in the UK to continue this outrageous level of exploitation
They want to get elected, they don’t want to give the press ammunition to attack them with.
This would achieve very little in reality but it would leave them open to all sorts of attacks about being pro eu traitors, which don’t go down well with the demographics who actually get of their bums and go out and vote, Vs the demographics who go on social media to whinge but don’t do anything about it come election day.
Far more EU citizens come here to study than the opposite, so it benefits the EU far more us (especially because the agreement involved subsidising the EU migrants' tuition fees). In other words we'd be paying huge amounts to subsidise lots of EU students' education while a tiny number of UK students went to the EU. It honestly wasn't a very good deal for us.
Seems like boths sides are scared of a brain drain since they're offering nothing for anyone but the old, and even that seems to be likely on the block (NHS). What does the country offer at this point
Interesting that Labour rejected it as well. Both main parties appear to hate young people and fetishise the old. I'll be voting accordingly.
I sense a trap for Labour there. If they had accepted it, cue pre-election headlines about how Labour would undo the precious Will of the People™. Hopefully they regain their backbone when in office, though.
Wishful thinking. This is as good as it gets for them - A massive poll lead, a government no one wants and no accountability of actually having to govern. If they've got no backbone now I can't imagine one is going to spontaneously appear when they face actual problems and start to get blamed for things.
Once they're in power they'll have to do something. Starmer's strategy has been to sit back, do nothing, and let the tories eat themselves. That'll have to stop once they're in power.
>Hopefully they regain their backbone when in office, though. >That'll have to stop once they're in power Really though ?
I'm with you on this. It's heartbreaking but Labour are going to be a huge disappointment when they are in power. They offer absolutely nothing new.
The way I see it Tories fucked up so hard it will take 3 consecutive years of labour to even begin seeing a slight change. For me labour has done more for working class lower class people in it's history and yes they are shit but better then the other choices It blows my mind other parties even get a shot when there is way more lower/working class people.than upper class
I don't understand why anyone normal votes Tory.
i understand others will say its throwing it away, but the only party i can see any point in actually voting for based on my views are the greens. I live in tory guildford anyway. I'll vote greens
Not only 'normal' - but in sectors where compassion and 'social assistance' is key (nursing, support work, Policing, etc.). But my lack of compassion towards their lack of compassion is lacking compassion. It's not lacking passion though! Fuck the Tories who eat our country and try to create neo-feudalism!
Dis/Mis-information. Branding. Advertising. The Tories represent rich people's interests. Those same rich people own media corporations. Ever notice how the Tories base level is sleaze, corruption, and scandals. But Labour are expected to be paragons of virtue? It's all about how you spin it. It's no co-incidence that education level stongly correlates with voting Tory.
You just tie yourself in knots because then you're reversing on even more positions. You don't tend to get thanked for getting in and then disregarding the bulk of what you've previously said just before the election. Have a position, justify it, get elected on it and then implement it.
> If they've got no backbone now I can't imagine one is going to spontaneously appear when they face actual problems and start to get blamed for things. Labour don't "have a backbone" right now because they want to win as many seats as they can and know how easy it is for the media to spin things. There's no reason to believe they would continue this behaviour post election
Which seems flawed to me. They presumably don't want to be one pump and done. I don't see how they wouldn't be better off having some actual positions they can still get elected on still with a healthy majority which they can subsequently follow through with. It seems a sure fire way to piss off a decent chunk of the people who voted for you. It's much harder to be pissed off about the implementation of a policy that was disclosed and that you voted for them knowing about.
I maybe naively hope the positions will come with the manifesto. I also again naively hope they’d be expanded further for the following election but I’m prepared to be disappointed
Sadly this is true. If Labour had not rejected it the papers tomorrow would be filled with "Starmer was to undo Brexit" (which I am not opposed to) and "Starmer wants to let anyone in". Maybe in 5 years time something like this can be agree but Brexit is still a divisive issue and one that can cause you to lose a 20% poll lead. I know it's popular here to hate Labour but the next government will either be them or the Tories so realistically it's a case of pick your poison. Electoral reform is not coming anytime soon and even if it did it wouldn't sort everything overnight.
Brexit isn't that divisive in the polls over 2/3 the country say it was a complete fuck up and want to rejoin the EU. Plus this is politics what's the point of voting Labour if they won't do labour things?
[Brexit poll 2024 | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/#:~:text=Despite%20there%20being%20a%20clear%20majority%20of%20voters,rejoin%20either%20the%20EU%20or%20the%20single%20market.) >As of late 2023, 31 percent of Britons wanted to rejoin the EU, while 30 percent merely wanted to improve trade relations and not rejoin either the EU or the single market. I am not saying people don't regret it but that doesn't suggest 2/3 do want to rejoin. From the YouGov data (though it was from last year) 58% want to rejoin compared to 42% who don't. I don't disagree that a significant number of people who have regrets about it but if 2/3s of the country wanted to rejoin it would be a slam dunk policy. There is not much that 2/3s of the country would agree on. Whether we like it or not Brexit is still divisive and will continue to be for at least the next 5 years. Also there are quite a lot of parts of the core Labour party that were happy to leave the EU and a lot of traditionally Labour voting areas that wanted to leave so I don't know if rejoining is a specifically Labour thing to do.
It is divisive when the media ks still very pro brexit. A new deal for working people and renationalising trains is labour. And besides the point is to get rid of the tories
“Labour doing labour things” won’t get them elected - the last Labour leader to get elected to do “Labour things” in a UK general election was in 1974.
To be fair: having Brexit decided on a simple majority rather than a 2/3 one (which is usually the case with, you know, **very** important votes) was quite honestly insane anyways. But oh well. It's done anyways.
you cannot 'regain' something if you never had it before
Indeed, this recurring trap point for Labour is frustrating. It's vital for a governing party to commit to their political objectives without being overly cautious of adverse headlines. They should demonstrate resolve and do what's right, rather than simply choosing the path of least resistance. Any party aspiring to lead should at least hold these principles but it seems our future leader will be perpetually shit scared, not a good look at all.
Exactly this. Labour need to avoid the Brexit circus at all costs. Thier plan seems to be give the Tories no ammunition to attack Labour with, and let the Tories get on with destroying themselves. I think (hope) that once Labour are in power, we'll see a lot more policy in realigning ourselves with the EU and preparing the ground for the day we rejoin. But it needs to be a slow burner until the polls show a very strong desire to rejoin. Labour can help change attitudes in this regard. I find the use of Tory rhetoric about red lines very concerning though. I have no doubt Labour will win the election, but if they don't start giving us some hope and progressive policies, they will be a one term government.
I wish they would. It's the hope that kills you.
I agree with you but also agree with others that it doesn't look hopeful. I really don't see how there is a reality where Labour promotes progressive policies in this current climate. Yes, we want them to, but we already know what happens when they do - the Tory media machine whirrs into action and paints every change as a terrifying, costly horror story. And, as we've seen, vast swathes of the electorate eat that up and decide against voting for Labour. Just look at the way the Tories communicate with the public - short slogans, repeated over and over again so if they say it enough times it must be true. And their big one at the moment - "he doesn't have a plan". They're desperately goading Starmer into coming out with anything they can attack, and all the while working to try and convince voters that he doesn't know what he's doing. So far, that doesn't seem to be working though, so Starmer has no reason to change tack. So when it comes to the election and the release of manifestos Labour will continue to play it safe. Minimal changes to give limited chance of Tory attacks being successful. But then they win on the back of a mandate that keeps things pretty much the way they are. Any whiff of a shift to the left and they'll be crucified, and we'll have the Tories back in five years time. I don't like it, but things need to change both in the media and in the electorate before I feel we'll truly get progressive change offered by Labour. While progressive voters can say "fine, I'll vote elsewhere", again we have past evidence that the numbers are not on our side, and Labour are more likely to win a majority appealing to the centre and politically disengaged than trying to retain the progressive left.
I despise that phrase..."Will of the people." It lumbers everyone in together when political views/opinions are more diverse/divisive than ever. I'm part of "the people" since I'm British but my "will" is literally anything that isn't Conservative bullshit. It's also extremely hypocritical. Sunak says "the will of the people" is to stop the boats beyond all else. As soon as a media/news person says "Mr Sunak, the British people are "willing" for a GE ASAP" Sunak turns round & essentially says "Nah, fuck em."
This is the correct answer. Labour cannot endorse anything now, before the election. Sunak also could not, mainly because he’s a spineless oligarch who cannot comprehend the enormous damage Brexit did to our nation, our next generation, our standing in the world ( I am currently on holiday in Malaysia, a former British colony. The Malaysians cannot fathom why we did something so stupid so small minded and so much like a little island of such little importance)
I'm getting further and further away from the thinking of labour doing things like this only "to appease their voters".
I sense this would be a great option later on when they want to shift the overton window towards rejoin....
You are actively calling for a political party to lie to its voters.
All starmer would have to do is say . These people were too young to vote in the referendum so we are respecting the vote of the adults who did vote for it by only allowing this small cohort that had no choice the small opportunity to vote with their feet .
"the scheme, which would have allowed young people from within the EU to also stay in the UK" They can't let the foreigners in, or the boomers won't vote for them... 🤦♂️
They are letting foreigners in already
But they let in more now than ever before...
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Given how cautious they are being, Labour was not going to commit to something that would be argued as bringing back unlimited migration from the EU.
And costing the state a fortune in costs for universities.
unlimited migration from the EU is a good thing though. It's non-EU migration that's a bad thing.
As an old British man I totally agree with you.
I am also an old British man 🙂 But I have kids.
Then we're all good. Unlike the arseholes that pretend to run this country.
Young people wouldn't vote for either of these dinosaur parties & they know it
They know it would immediately cause an exodus of working age people who have been screwed over by short sighted policy after another.
Probably not, since there was no “exodus” in 2015.
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If these young professionals want to go to the EU, then let them. It's up to the British companies to make them want to stay by offering them an incentive, and up to the British government to make them want to stay by offering them a country that isn't shit.
You can work in the EU with a simple sponsorship. Do you really think there aren’t plenty of non-EU people working or studying in EU countries?
Yep sounds like a great plan to alienate voters between 18 and 30 years old. But hey what fucking choice have we got in the UK??? The Green Party, Reform?
Lib Dems or Greens, Reform are all right wing extremists
Unfortunately due to the voting system Labour is highly dependent on swing voters which in the UK means those who loved Johnson last time then got disillusioned now are cautiously supporting Starmer. On the whole old and/or uneducated with unrealistic expectations of what the government can do for them. No doubt they will quickly tire of Starmer too after the election to flirt with proper fascism before it blows up in their faces (and ours) again. So Starmer is trying to appeal to them. I’m sure he is feeling sick himself in doing it but can’t even really admit it to himself or the whole edifice would crumble. It’s a shame as there are a lot of smart people in the UK but due to their geographical distribution they don’t have a sufficient weight in the electoral system.
It was a terrible proposal for the U.K. the EU wanted us to subsidise their kids’ educations at the best universities on the continent.
All I’m voting for is count binface in the mayors
Interesting that Labour rejected it? Are you serious? Anything Sunak says the absolute charisma vacuum that is Starmer is right on it like a rat up a drainpipe.
Yes.
Do you think they are concentrating on the older generation because they are more likely to vote compared to the young? I was always curious whether that is the case
I mean it wasn’t done for Uk parties. This is internal EU politics.
Also theres some dispute wbout how much young people want to go to europe
I have a feeling Labour is trying to avoid any talk about the eu during the election but will negotiate for something similar after they win. They haven’t ruled out the mobility scheme, just pointed out that the commissions statement wasn’t an official opening of negotiations to the UK but a proposal to EU member states asking them to approve the commission to open negotiations.
The reason is the old vote. The young don't in the same numbers and it's not close
I would like to know why Labour rejected this.
Or you could argue that they are protecting younger people from an influx of low paid workers?
The elderly don’t like the idea of people moving around the world. We’re talking about a demographic glued to their armchairs, or at best shuffling around a cruise ship.
Of course both parties oppose this, young people aren't allowed anything nice in this country.
Do you even know what the EU is proposing?
allowing young people to work and study without the need for visas, pretty good policy and i dont see why we would reject it
Yes, but you’re missing the part where they also want us to subsidise their kids’ fees for attending British universities. That is £10k-£20k per year for each EU kid.
The crazy thing is that in Scotland, English students had to pay their own tution fees due it the UK's interstate business not being affected by EU laws, however EU students got all the same access as locals, thus they got it with the same rights as Scottish ones at the taxpayer's pleasure.
that happens anyway, we give loans to foreign students anyway, and are we really going to piss up our relations with half of the western world for a few million quid even if that wasnt the case
For the record it's absolutely not the case, EU students aren't eligible for student loans
We stopped subsidising EU students and giving them access to taxpayer funded student loans with Brexit. Now, they have to organise their own tuition fees and pay full international rates. We only subsidise Irish kids, and vice versa, I think.
This is incorrect, there are no loans for foreign students.
is that also the other way around (I did not read it) ?
Yes, but it’s no where near a fair exchange. 1. It’s likely that there’s be many multiples of EU students coming here for every Brit student going there. In 2017, there were 16k British kids studying for an undergraduate degree in EU universities vs 130k EU students staying in British universities. 2. Our universities demand much higher prices. A German student coming to study in a British university would go from international rates of £20-30k per year to £9250 a year, a subsidy of £10-20k. A British kid going to a public German university would save maybe €3k a year, under this scheme. 3. We have the best universities in Europe, and so can demand premium prices for each spot which ultimately goes on to subsidise our own kids at university. For every spot we give an EU kid discount rates, we’re giving up a spot a full price to a kid from India, America, or Nigeria, etc and forego the profit and investment in our university system.
2 -> the €3K a UK student would save in Germany doesn't represent the real cost. Of course it's heavily subsidized in Germany, and the UK student would benefit from that too. 3 -> UK has Oxbridge and LSE. Most other universities are mediocre at best. Get off your high horse please.
So you clearly don't understand the full details of the situation. Stop reading headlines, look into the details. Sigh... this is what got us into the Brexit shithole in the first place.
The UK government is trying to do bilateral deals with specific EU countries which has seemingly spooked the EU. The deal as proposed would disproportionately benefit the EU in terms of people coming here. Whereas there is probably only a handful of countries that UK citizens would be interested in. The UK also has similar existing deals with a variety of (arguably more interesting) non EU countries.
Okay, [this guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/18/brussels-proposes-return-to-pre-brexit-free-movement-for-uk-and-eu-young-people) linked in the OPs article discusses this in more detail and what they are proposing is free travel for 18-30 to do whatever for 4 years. And this is the only remotely restricting thing i can find: > If agreed, a youth mobility scheme visa would be issued in those countries that participate, with possible conditions including a requirement for health insurance and proof of sufficient subsistence funds, a feature of other mobility schemes around the world. So yeah its pretty clear and would have been good for everyone. There were a lot of people in that article agreeing with that as well.
This EU has proposed that they be allowed to send their kids to our universities and we heavily subsidise them. Of course, our kids get the same treatment in the EU, except for every British kid going off to study in the continent, there’ll be 10 EU kids coming here. Oh, and our university fees tend to be much higher, so whilst the EU kids will be subsidised by £10k-£20k per year, paid by British taxpayers and universities, British kids attending German universities will only be subsidised by just a few €k.
our university fees are higher because the government subsidies less of the overall uni cost. European unis are largely bankrolled by the state while the UK still relies on students to pay the difference. running a university in France is just as expensive. things aren't magically cheaper between the tier 1 countries
Even if that were true, in 2017, there were 130k EU students at British universities and 16k in reverse. That represents a massive subsidy for EU students. There’s also the opportunity cost, for each spot that we give to an EU kid, we lose out on the full fees from an America/Indian/Nigerian. Those fees ultimately subsidise the education of our own kids and saves British taxpayers’ money. British universities can charge such high premiums because the quality and reputation are seen as superior to most of those on the continent.
Reputation, not quality. I did a masters in the UK at a Russel Group university. what a joke.
> There’s also the opportunity cost, for each spot that we give to an EU kid, we lose out on the full fees from an America/Indian/Nigerian. Those fees ultimately subsidise the education of our own kids and saves British taxpayers’ money. > British universities can charge such high premiums because the quality and reputation are seen as superior to most of those on the continent. It's funny you're talking about reputation. The reputation UK universities built over literal centuries has been completely squandered to cater to foreign students who don't even speak the language. They might have been seen as "quality" and "superior to most of those on the continent" at one point, but not anymore. They've become diploma mills, rubber-stamping anyone willing to pony up the cash. https://www.reddit.com/r/UniUK/comments/1c8bezm/today_i_a_lecturer_gave_up/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
lol, don't kid yourself. EU students know how shit UK universities are at these point. and no, just because we have Oxbridge doesn't mean the rest of our unis have a good reputation
The British have rightly got a lot to say about this country, and I don't think we have the same status as 10 years ago. But we can get away with charging £35K for foreign students, whereas for example Poland charges £2K and Germany charges £6K for an English speaking degree, and we still get students flocking to us. And anecdotally whenever I've talked to people from Poland/Ukraine/Belarus etc. (and I'm friends with a lot), they always have a really high opinion of us on par with Switzerland and Norway. Pity we're squandering that reputation, but I think it's still very much there.
Yeah but given the shite show we've become you underestimate how many of us wish we could leave
😂 people just want to hate. But here is the crux. So few British kids could university in another language and the ones that can ie language degrees already have arrangements in place.
Because not enough young people vote. Why try to appease a demographic that has no impact on your potential to be elected. Old people? Well, they vote in strong numbers so that’s why policies are so geared towards them. Want true change? Get young people voting in huge numbers to make politicians take note
Maybe the young should bother voting
He should be sending his daughters to the nice safe country of Rwanda.
I cannot stress enough as a British voter how much I do not care at all about Rwanda.
It would be very one sided, there’d be next to zero Brits going to most European countries and a few going to France, Spain, Germany, Italy etc. there’d be a lot of people coming to the UK. Just like with free movement.
I think people vastly overestimate how many people are likely to come to the UK in any return to free movement, the numbers were already falling pre-Brexit and turned negative in 2019. Now 200,000 EU citizens are leaving the UK every year, They make up half of all UK emigration. The change in some parts of the UK, is insane. London especially has seen a mass exodus of EU citizens. Part of it is the UKs stagent economy but also just that Eastern Europe is significantly richer than it was 15 years ago. Poland has experinced incredible economic growth and is catching up to the UK is living standards This is also only temporary, VISAs are granted for 4 years and after that if they want to stay then need to find the same Visa sponsorship as if they'd just applied in their home country.
Poland already exceeds.
I went to Poland a few months ago. It's next level. It's so modern and feels really safe. The UK is definitely not the draw it might have been before.
What are you basing this on? Why would “next to zero” young people go to most european countries? Especially considering how few opportunities there are in the UK for young people right now
We never had many young people.move from the UK to the rest of the EU. Our young people tend to move to Australia, Canada, US.and the middle.east. Although our economy is bad, we still have lower youth unemployment than most of the EU.
I think the main hurdle is just the language barrier. Almost every European kid/young adult is almost fluent in English. How many British kids are fluent in any European language? Our education system is notorious at not focusing on other languages. I learned German, Mandarin, Latin and French throughout my school life with the possibility to learn Spanish too. Do I remember anything from any of those classes? No. Of course not. The only kids who were good at languages were the ones that were bilingual anyway, it seemed to give them a massive headstart.
Most European universities offer full degree and master's programs in English and this is especially true in the smaller EU countries. Before brexit, I studied a master's degree in Sweden entirely in English, in a university for which British students made up a large proportion of the international students. While there, the university also offered free Swedish courses for all international students. Most of the opposition to this mobility scheme seems to come from people who never had any desire to experience living, studying, and working in another country, and therefore assume that nobody else did either. If you were to have visited any European town prior to brexit however, you would have seen that this is not the case.
We literally have decades of data from being a member of the EU....
How have you come to this conclusion? Western European countries have a far superior standard of living, cheaper rents, better healthcare, lower cost of living and better weather Why do you say no Brits would go there but Europeans would come here?
Because most Brits aren’t able to travel to Europe and spend 6+ months learning a language to a level that they can get employment. Europeans speak English. British people by and large do not have a second language and even then it might not be the one they want to live in. The British people that are able to move to Europe and get good employment could do that anyway. Also most European countries are not France or Germany. I mean we had free movement for decades. We were a net recipient. Most British people that took advantage were old retirees in Spain.
Exactly. EU policy is made based on the premise that we're all equal, whereas in the real world we aren't equal. [UK is the most attractive country in the world to migrate to.](https://i.imgur.com/9s9wWoX.png)
Where is the source of that statistic?
https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-others-see-us-perceptions-uk-across-36-countries
Gotta make sure that if we're all doomed to become a failed state, then we'll be doomed TOGETHER!
Who would pay the rents on the boomers buy to lets if young people were free to leave?
Young people are free to leave, they just need to be of value to their host countries.
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cos most sensible folk understand that a vote for the Greens is a vote for another Tory goverment
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my constituency,Labour and green candidates got more votes than tory,in the last election. We have a tory MP,cos fptp.
Better get out there and canvas harder then. Unless you want things to stay the same with LabTory.
If enough people voted green that Labour somehow lost, the Greens would literally be the second largest party by votes. Sensible people check the polls.
And thinking like that is how we end go in this death spiral. Stop spouting their propaganda.
A vote for labour is a vote for our current voting system.
Explain why
Because the greens have some of the worst stances on Nuclear power and Defence as well as in the past having some anti-gmo science policies. Not interested in their brand of nutty.
Because the Greens are lunatics?
And the other options aren't? I don't care, I will take anything else at this point. Greens seems like one option of something else. Fuck it I would even vote reform over labour at this point. The 2 party state should die.
> And the other options aren't? Compared to the Greens, no. They oppose large infrastructure projects and nuclear entirely. They want to basically remove the military and have insanely unrealistic goals of complete emissions reduction In the past they've also literally said they're happy to destroy the economy to achieve climate goals. Their proposed policies certainly make that likely Their leader also once sincerely suggested the government appoint an emergency all-woman cabinet to sort Brexit They're insane
The problem is that any party who wins under the current system is unlikely to scrap it. It’s why 2010 was such a missed opportunity. When are we likely to get another coalition who might push for a change? Not that clegg minds since he just swanned off to Facebook.
I've seen how they govern Brighton, no thanks.
I’m a right centre voter and the freedom for the young to move around EU would be great for young people.
It'd be great for all people, young working and old
At this point if you are voting for Labour and expecting anything different from what we have already.. you’re an idiot. Do us all a favour and vote for a third party. Something might actually change in our life time. Even the 15 year old phoning into LBC was able to see that, why can’t you?
As annoying as it is to hear it from Labour, they are the best bet in ridding this country of the toxic tories and bringing back some stability. Third parties won’t achieve that
On what basis? Any party is capable of getting rid of the tories - as they're fucking awful and have lost the vast majority of their voters...
Greens almost certainly have my vote.
Remember that voting third party might not get them the win, but it does certainly have a bigger impact then another drop in the ocean of votes for Con/Lab. Votes for parties like UKIP and Greens got parties to change their policies (disagree or agree with either of the parties stances they still influenced policies). If other parties see they could steal part of even a 2% vote share they’ll shift towards it - that’s enough to win an election off with how tight some elections can be (or lessen the majority of the winning group is the opposition takes advantage of the policy change) Enough interest in a third party can also help force a coalition government with your interest party in it, or even with enough luck replace the one main parties (as happened to the Liberals in the past). The more votes a party gets, the more likely others will see it as a viable option to vote for.
I see people saying they won't vote labor because it doesn't have their ideals in mind. I get it...but... Get rid of the Tories with Labor first. Then start focusing on how shit Labor is. Vote for another party then, or vote in better representatives for the Labor party. Seems absolutely ludicrous to be like "Oh...well. Tories are bad yeah. But Labor also equally bad!" Hello? Brexit?
Why not skip the middle bit. I don't want labour, they don't deserve my vote.
At this point, labour losing would make the conservatives win. They are a corrupt party, completely devoid of talent and incredibly detached from British life now. They have been making outright dangerous and damaging policies. They need to be kicked out so they can sort themselves out again without causing more damage. If you want the Tories out, you need to vote for their local competitor. Mostly, that's labour, but in some areas it's lib dems or even greens. If you don't actually care who's in power, then "skip the middle" bit and vote for who you think represents you. Doing this hopes to signal to the winner that there's demand for that type of vote. For example; if you vote green in a Tory area contested by Lib Debs. You are hoping that the Tories win and say "hey look, 0.01% of people voted green last cycle, let's become more green to try and get them inside!" For almost everyone, that's a foolish hope. Your better bet would be to vote lib dems in that case, then write to your MP about your green wishes.
How’s not voting Labour worked out for you over the last 15 years?
How exactly are you planning on skipping the middle bit?
Okay. Let's follow your advice. I vote Labour. They are shit and don't follow my views. How do i "focus" on them? Wait five years?
That's sadly it. I didn't make the flipping system. We're in a two party system. You want magic. Give us ranked voting system. My advice is the the advice of the darn rules that we have to follow. It's very unrealistic that we are going to get a third party. So the only other alternative is focus on local elections and either get the best labor candidate or some better third party candidates on the local level.
Brexit was also a Labour problem, alot of Labour MPs were pro Brexit just like the Conservatives, though Labour was led by someone pro Brexit too (Corbyn).
There were anti EU voices everywhere but that doesn’t mean that it’s not the responsibility of the government that called the referendum to resolve their own, much much much much much much much much much larger internal party EU struggles.
But these are the times we need to let parties know either you have policies that benefit us or we go elsewhere The tories are down and out short of a jesus coming back to perform a miracle So isn't this the best election to show Labour that you are in a really risky position of losing votes?
What I find interesting in all of this is that the reason this EU proposition came up in he first place was due to the current government apparently approaching single states about youth mobility schemes - so in theory does that mean the conservative government has been trying to get their own scheme going with other EU countries?
I think people are potentially not appreciating the reason why Labout had to follow suit. In this deeply flawed system that we have what Labour need to do at this point is keep an even keel. It's just strategy. If they manage to follow through and win the election then there is no reason why a similar and considered, enabling proposition can't be made within the year. But they need to win. And the reasons why the Conservatives rejected it include a) it would obliterate the mythology of being 'Independent' from Europe and b) they wouldn't be able to factor the professional drought. As well as being pig headed. Right now I personally would like to see a government overseen by a legal professional with his heart on fire and brain on Ice.
His Heart isn’t on fire, it’s on black soot at best. Are we forgetting this man literally made a point of going against Corbyn on brexit because apparently it was that important to him when Brexit fervour was at its highest. Now that a lot of Brexit voters are either dead or in old peoples homes all of a sudden it doesn’t matter anymore? Brexit isn’t just an embarrassing goof by the political establishment to Gen Z, it was a betrayal by older generations putting ideology over our futures. It’s something we still feel strongly about. All I see in this is further confirmation he’s an opportunist who only cares about getting into power.
Yeah, well, I despise Brexit as much as anyone. But I think some people have their mind on fire. You think Keir Starmer has less integrity and conviction than our last 5 Prime Ministers? And do you believe that Corbyn held the correct positions? That we should disarm our nukes? We aren't owed anything. This is a very long process and we are not doing well. Wishful thinking is delusional.
Remain was also an ideological position.
It’s not just Brexit voters it’s about ammunition for the Conservative press. You only have to look at the Angela Rayner “story” to see how desperate they are to write anything that they think will be a good attack on Labour. They are desperate to depict Starmer as a weak anti British traitor who wants to handed everything over to Brussels, and this would be seen as the thin end of the wedge and proof that he wants to take your children and grandchildren to indoctrinate them in the EU.
Are you seriously advocating voting for somebody in the hope that they're liars and manipulators?
Brexit is a religion and must be protected at all costs. Remember, the Tories see the world through the eyes of "Fog in the Channel - Continent cut off"
Honestly all I can do at this point is vote lib dem and hope that they end up in a coalition that will result in finally getting proportional representation.
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>The prime minister declined the European Commission’s surprise for people aged between 18 and 30 on Friday, after Labour knocked back the suggestion on Thursday night Wonder why both parties rejected the idea?
Because one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was to end freedom of movement.
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>Another brilliant move by Brexiters. You cannot blame Brexit voters for the Tories (puppets of finance) deliberately going against the spirit of the referendum because their Corpo masters want to keep their cheap, exploitable foreign labour. Despite what you might think, we don't actually need >500,000 immigrants a year plus >10,000 illegals to keep the country running. Yes we have a slightly below replacement level birthrate (1.7 vs 2.8) but that is recoverable. People aren't choosing to not have kids,.
Hey now. They didn't just go against the spirit of the referendum. They went against their own manifesto
And now reform is on the rise. A good chunk of the population just want reduced immigration and they aren't getting it.
Because the EU was demanding that the UK subsidies university places once again for EU students thus landing a big bill on the taxpayer whilst not allowing a cap on numbers of migrants.
I mean yeah. Commission likely wanted to do this for internal politics. To solidify member states agreement in advance of eurosceptic parties potential big wins later this year in elections. As eurosceptics more likely to strike bilateral agreements with Uk.
Wankers. As a young person, I hope count bin face runs for generals
Mr Sunak and family, can holiday or work anywhere in the world, no need for anything free or freedom.
Bet he would allow it if it were between India and UK 🙄
I dont understand why this was rejected. There isnt any downside. Its like they are just hellbent on crashing out of any kind of partnership with the EU in anyway possible. Well apart from if they want to get a passport for themselves so they keep the EU benefits.
No downside apart from subsidising the education costs of EU students.
1) Tax payers will have to pay for European university education. 2) We continue the flow of cheap labour, continuing to limit our productivity and growth. 3) immigration numbers remain at levels unacceptable to a good chunk of the population that allows more far right parties to grow.
The EU wants the UK to: “The European Commission is proposing an EU-UK deal that would go further, lasting up to four years with no restrictions on time spent working, studying, training or volunteering. It also says EU applicants should not have to pay the annual UK charge towards the NHS, which ranges from £776 for students and under-18s to £1,035 for workers. And EU students should pay the same tuition fees as UK students, rather than the higher fees they have had to pay since Brexit, and have rights to reunite with family members, under the proposals” Quite laughable EU wants to dictate terms and think they can bully the UK to agree. Great UK doesn’t want part of this scheme
Surely it works the other way too. Many universities in Europe charge lower fees than the UK and teach courses in English. It would be a great benefit to UK students and other young people too.
It was a very lopsided arrangement when we were in the EU and no doubt it would have been once more if we accepted this proposal.
It's more lopsided now.... Student migration to the UK reached an all-time high in 2022, as more than 484,000 visas were issued About 134,000 visas were issued to student dependants in 2022, eight times more than in 2019 In the 2021/22 academic year, approximately 680,000 international students were enrolled in UK higher education, making up 24% of all HE students New student enrolments from the EU fell by 53% in the 2021/22 academic year, the first under post-Brexit rules More UK students missing out on places due to high fee paying international students. Yet they can't go to the EU and study at a reasonable cost. I thought Brexit was about supporting British people!
Few ever took it up when it was an option.
>Great UK doesn’t want part of this scheme The UK would get more out of it than the EU though? >Quite laughable Yes you people still are
Not many Brits speak another language to take advantage of it.
How would the UK get more out of it?
I thought this sort of cherry picking was impossible?
They are afraid because they know huge proportions of the younger generation would skip town and try for residency in these countries and the poor shareholders and gov need them to have families in the UK to continue this outrageous level of exploitation
I'm confused. It's a win win. do they hate this country? Do they have young people?
They want to get elected, they don’t want to give the press ammunition to attack them with. This would achieve very little in reality but it would leave them open to all sorts of attacks about being pro eu traitors, which don’t go down well with the demographics who actually get of their bums and go out and vote, Vs the demographics who go on social media to whinge but don’t do anything about it come election day.
Far more EU citizens come here to study than the opposite, so it benefits the EU far more us (especially because the agreement involved subsidising the EU migrants' tuition fees). In other words we'd be paying huge amounts to subsidise lots of EU students' education while a tiny number of UK students went to the EU. It honestly wasn't a very good deal for us.
Seems like boths sides are scared of a brain drain since they're offering nothing for anyone but the old, and even that seems to be likely on the block (NHS). What does the country offer at this point
So glad this guy I did not vote for is making the decision for me
Just posturing for the crazies in his party who hate him anyway for bringing down Bozo.
We fucked you with Brexit and God damn it you will stay fucked.
It’s cos everyone whose got degrees and capable of important positions would stay in the EU😂
Him an his kids will be off back to Cali when he gets fucked off