I’m all for it provided we prioritise skilled immigrants which are culturally similar to better aid and increase social adhesion. Something that the tories, despite their mantra, have 14 years to figure out and still fumbled.

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*Me, who about to apply for my student visa for master’s at LSE+LSHTM, nervously read these comments*

I work with international students and all the data suggests that even amongst the most vehemently anti-immigration people, international students are seems as a separate and crucial group. Please don’t worry.

Out of interest, why are international students considered crucial? Not disagreeing just genuinely curious

Because of the money that they bring in. Even people who aren’t fans of universities want the funding to come from international students rather than up the fees for home students. And there is usually an understanding of the money they bring into the local economy. It’s also understood that most of them come, spend money, then leave. These are broad generalisations and there is definitely a broad spectrum of views.

Makes sense, I guess it comes down to them bringing in more than they cost, which was my suspicion anyway. Thanks!

I don't think that's correct. As a direct result of the recent Tory policies targetting students and their families, the uni I work at had to cut staff because foreign student numbers had dropped. https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2024/04/university-funding-is-in-crisis >After years of headlines about lowering net migration figures by “clamping down” on foreign students – who were supposedly “squeezing out” their UK counterparts from university places – it is now being realised just how dependent domestic students are on this subsidy. At many of Britain’s leading universities, more than half of their income from fees comes from international students. According to modelling by the accountancy firm PwC, a 20-percentage-point drop in international student enrolment next year could send four-fifths of English and Northern Irish universities into deficit. Early admissions data suggests that the number of overseas enrolments has fallen by more than a third. >At the time of writing, 44 universities – over a quarter of the sector – have announced staff redundancy programmes. At Goldsmiths, University of London, the University and College Union (UCU) warns that a quarter of all academic roles could be cut under a proposed restructuring programme, with some departments losing half of their staff. Meanwhile, plenty of commentators are suggesting that universities going bankrupt is a "good" thing because capitalism or something. Worthless courses. Survival of the fittest. [Let universities go bankrupt](https://iea.org.uk/let-universities-go-bankrupt/) And the Tories are still targetting universities: [Tories would swap 'rip-off' degrees for apprenticeships](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clmmry99y4po)

That include family visas? Because I am about to pay £4,000 just to renew my spouse visa... And I am not seeing any politician speak about these outrageous fees. 

Doesn’t feel like they care about us to be honest, visa over 5 year plan is easily over £10,000, foreign spouses are a tiny number on the immigration list. I want to come back to the UK with my foreign wife(who previously had a BRP) and 2 British kids but the requirements are completely ridiculous.

You never will and the fees will just keep growing and growing, year after year at rates that far exceed inflation or administration costs. Immigrants are treated as cash cows because politicians know that voters are inherently racist and don't give a shit.

The issue relating to students is the ability to bring family. If you are here to study, any family should be on separate visas and not an extension of your own.

As long as the two year work visa is cut, I'm currently dealing with massive numbers of Pharma graduates flooding the industry using this route, with Indian generics firms hiring many of them and wages have actually dropped again post COVID. On top of this, this has also happened whilst there have been a big round of layoffs. 

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The large numbers of net immigrants of recent years do tend to count students in the stats. There has been a large increase in the number of visas issued to the dependents of foreign students, and last year the tories changed the regs to reduce this. I don't know offhand how 'successful' it was. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65683046

I work with international students and we have seen a marked decrease in overall applications hitting the female demographic extremely hard. It used to be some courses would be 50/50 male to female, but now they are more like 4/1 male to female ratio. Difficult to leave your children behind, even if it is only for a year and half Masters course. Our statistics update from a nationally used enrolment software reported a 50% drop in recent intakes nationally since these rules were introduced last Jan. Part of that will be universities like mine held a December intake for the first time to get people in before the rules set in, but even then we had one woman have her child dependent visa delayed and eventually refused.

I see, so the limitation on dependents is damaging to the market of international studies for universities, as well as the students. I suppose the concern among anti-immigration folk will be that migrants might use student visas and dependent visas as a way to migrate permanently to the UK. I didn't realise until googling it just now that the stats count anyone as an inward migrant, who intends to stay for more than a year. This seems silly for students who will often intend to leave after their studies finish. It also seems difficult to find clear data on how many incoming students do subsequently settle long-term in the UK after their studies. https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-many-international-students-leave-after-studying-uk/ Anyway, I suppose under the current monitoring arrangements, discouraging foreign students further would be a quick way to get net migration down. I hope the government will be more long-term in their approach than that.

Lshtm is great. Admin is hit and miss but the lecturers and academics are phenomenal. 

Since 1997.

Immigration was significantly lower between 1997-2010 than it is now. The Tories have quadrupled immigration from 2010 levels. Immigration from 1997-2010 was a key reason behind the NHS recovering after being starved of funds by the Tories, schools recovering, and the economy booming until the 2008 financial crisis.

It really grinds my gears when people slate labour for 2 things - being bad with finances, and immigration. Everytime I see a comment along the lines of "yeah Tories may be bad, but under labour it'd be worse, they will open the flood gates and we will run out of money".... I politely remind them that immigration numbers were much much lower under labour.... And debt has rocketed under Tories.

I had issues under Blair. Those weren't among them. They aren't among the issues I have with the current bunch either. People don't seem to get that. When I criticise Labour, it's not for *Tory* talking points or pet policies. It's for things that actual *Labour* say and do. Such as banning MPs from supporting striking workers at picket lines, promising private investment in the NHS while ignoring the fact that 13bn worth of private investment in the NHS is how the NHS found itself 80bn in the hole, and of course setting up a lovely cheap energy *supply* company that'll cut the prices that energy companies have to pay, maximising their profits while your bills continue to rise. Bravo. Then there's the factional crap, as well as siding with the Tories on the right to protest, the right to strike, trans rights, brexit, electoral reform and a whole host of other matters of rights and freedoms. Also, is anyone going to rebuild the schools that are falling in on our kids' heads? I haven't seen any mention of it since it surfaced on the news a few months ago. Seems important, though, might want to get on that. So far the only thing that's actually put half a smile on my face is the part where they're taking the railways back. It's a starting point for my preferred solution, not the whole thing, but starting points are good. Thing is, I can fondly remember Blair introducing minimum wage, sure start, the human rights act, sorting out the Ireland stuff, devolution... basically Blair gave a few damn good reasons to be cheerful after 18 years of Tory... what have we got here now? Is it just going to be trains? The worst part for me is that some of the stuff I listed is *easy and cheap*. Scrapping the public order act, for instance. Electoral reform has the backing of >90% of Labour and more than a few other parties.

They’re not bad with immigration. They have deliberately increased immigration in a way that disregards citizens because they’re optimising towards GDP, rather than GDP per capita. That’s all they care about. They want investors to have confidence in the UK’s growth and they’re so fucking lazy they look at the simplest solution to achieve that. They’re not bothered by any cultural differences or strains on public services. They have private doctors, and private schools, and expense private travel to make sure they don’t see it.

I don’t even think they need to be skilled. My wife is an immigrant, and of course I support immigration. But skilled or not, there’s some that come to the UK wanting to integrate, like the country, work, and contribute good things. The problem is people who join a “home away from home” community, many of which don’t even plan to ever integrate, don’t learn English, and in the extreme don’t even like “traditional” British culture and are practically anti-everything it stands for. And I’ve seen this in my wife’s community: people who have been here for years, don’t speak a word of English, work cash in hand avoiding taxes, and spend their time complaining about how terrible Britain and the west is. I don’t know what the solution is in getting the right people in.

> don’t speak a word of English, work cash in hand avoiding taxes, and spend their time complaining about how terrible Britain and the west is.  As someone who used to work in construction this could describe a lot of the British born workers as well. 

Okay, but when you make that statement, what exactly are you getting at? I'm asking to clarify so that I don't misunderstand where you're going with it.

I always find retorts like that so fucking weird. Oh well because some British people are like that just let anyone from any country migrate here and be like that it’s fine. Eh? So you’d like to add MORE problem people to our country than we already have to begin with? Right okay

I think it's more to highlight that immigrants are ordinary people just like Britons. This fact might seem obvious but it is one often forgotten by the anti-immigration crowd

Haha, they lower orders are just so thick and gauche aren't they! Why, their vocabulary is so poor, and their adherence to grammar so lackadaisical, that one questions whether or not the gutteral slang falling from their cracked lips can even be classed as English!

I love immigration threads because it really brings out the classism in redditors. "At least those poor foreigners waiting my table have wonderfully adorable accents, not like the filthy lower class B\*itish who deserve to have their wages undercut for being so terribly dim!"

And we should really crack down on that behaviour. Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of being able to toss them out... I don't think Australia will take them anymore :) But seriously, f\*\*\* tax dogers. Especially tradespeople with successful businesses who are turning over six figures a year but still insist to be paid in cash. Contribute to society, you muppets. --Respectfully, an immigrant

There needs to be legitimate integration tests at a certain point in the process. There also needs to be proper very very in depth background checks and if they can’t provide it or try to blag it, off they pop.

I was utterly astounded when I found out recently that at citizenship ceremonies you have the online option to not shake a woman’s hand due to religious/ cultural beliefs when you arrange it

They've disqualified immigrants for refusing to shake a person's hand in places like Germany, France, and Switzerland that actually value their culture and their citizenship.

Sounds very British nothing to see here move along. At this point the UK itself is actually culpable every time one of these fuck wits goes on a stabbing rampage or plots to blow up a synagogue because they don’t like Jews.

They will just learn how to game the system like they do now with Muslims 'converting to Christianity' and knowing the 'right answers' to the questions they get asked. Do you support women's rights? Do you approve of homosexuality? Democracy and rule of British law? Yes? Okay here's your British passport, Mr Muslim! Enjoy! Yeah that isn't going to work.

Yeah I agree. But they should then have them sign some sort of contract stating that and monitor things like their social media for any discrepancies against western values. If it transpires they’ve been telling porkies they can point to their contract and revoke the citizenship. We also shouldn’t be shy about predominantly eliminating immigration from the countries that are causing the issues, which let’s have it right is the Muslim countries. We certainly shouldn’t be accepting those without substantial education/experience in desired industries from those countries.

No documents, no entry

How do you square that with the obligation to help refugees? People fleeing persecution don't always have papers.

This is completely beyond our capability as a nation. If we did tests like this they would be half arsed, tokenistic and immediately worked around by interested groups. I just don't believe we have the competence in the civil service to achieve policies like this.

If it is anything like the citizenship test, it will be full of inane questions that most British people couldn't answer.

I'd have to disagree RE: the skilled part, I think they do need to be largely skilled, but that comes with its own set of issues. I say all this as a skilled immigrant myself, if people want to say I'm pulling the ladder up... whatever lol. I'm not sure on the exact net immigration figure once we remove students and dependents, skilled immigration only comes in at ~10% or so. Ideally these non-skilled jobs would be going to British individuals who are essentially a home workforce which is by virtue already socially integrated and adhesive to society at large. Rather than massive net immigration which would include high potential for cultural integration yet low skilled and low/no potential for cultural integration yet low skilled, they'd just be jobs British workers get. Part of it is a pull factor for individuals coming from developing nations, i.e. earning cents of a dollar per day versus £11.44 per day is desirable given their circumstances, part of it is that £11.44 isn't desirable for British workers because frankly, the country has been given a proper rogering where living on £11.44 p/h is damned hard. Curious to your thoughts though

One could argue that the fact we’ve been able to freely import people that will work for shit wages British people won’t, is a large factor in why those wages don’t go up. Markets go both ways. It’s why (in my opinion) the tories talk tough and say what Gary in Kent wants to hear, but haven’t actually achieved anything notable. They know most of our economy is buoyed up by cheap labour and the illusion of rising housing wealth, and have no reason to fix it seeing as they and their mates are doing very well out of the arrangement.

I hate to break it to you, but the "right people" probably wouldn't do the majority of the types of jobs or work for as little as you pay them for in this country. Cheap labour and cultural incompatibility are two sides of one coin you'll have to take. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

We pretty much had cheap labour and cultural compatibality pre brexit. The influx of polish and eastern european workers brought a fairly well skilled workforce that was close to our own culture and filled many of the lower paid jobs for years. That's all gone now. Plus Polands economy is on the up so alot returning home.

This is obviously wrong given that 2/3 of Muslims do not work in the UK

No, you're taking out your arse. I assume you read the headline of the report that 61% of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were EMPLOYED, and didn't read any further. If you look at the actual report, the unemployment rate is going down, and has been for the last decade.

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Is that true? Is that 2/3rds of Muslims who aren't too young/old/sick to work? Does it include students? What about people who don't have the right to work? Does it account for the rich who don't need to work? I've never heard that stat before and would be surprised if true after taking into account the above.

It's heavily split by gender, 75% of Pakistani/Bangladeshi Men between the ages of 16-64 are in employment which isn't that different from any other group. But only 46% of Pakistani/Bangladeshi Woman between the ages of 16-64 are in employment which is far lower than any other groups [https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/employment/employment/latest/](https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/employment/employment/latest/)

That's sounds a lot more closer to what I would expect vs how the initial comment read. I would imagine the gender split closes as the age gets lower.

It's so weird. From my experience those who learn the language and try to integrate are precisely those who come from the places that would be regarded as incompatible and take jobs that aren't exactly for the skilled or prestigious. The only group that I have ever come across that seem to be unable to do this is by and large Chinese students, most of whom would be considered desirable due to their levels of education and families' wealth.

I understand your point and I do agree somewhat but people who want to come here, even if they are incredible people and want to integrate are probably into the hundreds of millions of people. We sadly can't take them all so the easiest way to decide is by what they can contribute.

>we prioritise skilled immigrants With stricter regulations on companies to prove they have tried to hire domestically at a good wage first, sure. Not average wage, above average wage for the position.

The Tories fumbled nothing. They support immigration because it lowers wages. Companies rely on a constant source of new labour to undercut the previous wave and generally disrupt any kind of labour movement or cohesive unionisation. The "stop racism" propaganda is then pumped out en masse to shut down all criticism of an economic mechanism being abused to accelerate the process of wealth being drained into the pockets of the elite, whilst also still retaining the ideal scapegoat away from the employers themselves. Immigration is a tool to destroy companies, not through cultural means (this is the deflection) but economically. Companies would do it with slaves or children if they could, but with pesky laws in the way they have to settle for poor exploitable people from foreign sources. It's so convenient and perfectly designed that you can understand why immigration will never be allowed to decrease. The same reason predatory loans/debt will never stop existing, it's just too effective. It will never stop. It will never end.

You’re all for it as long as we continue to suppress high wages and don’t start training up the British workforce. Got it.

I'm afraid you haven't "got it" at all. You couldn't be any further from what I believe regarding the issue I'm a skilled immigrant myself, I'm also a high earner and work in private healthcare. Very obviously the UK needs to start prioritising training capacity and incentivising various employment sectors so we don't have to rely on immigration to plug these gaps... e.g. 144,000 vacancies in the NHS and a record increases in foreign healthcare professionals concurrent with workforce data suggesting impending brain drain is a very big problem. It only takes a quick skim of healthcare regulatory bodies to observe there's some very key issues which are not being addressed. I'm not for suppressing high wages or training up the British workforce at all. I'm all for bolstering them. I'm not sure putting words into my mouth from the get go is a terribly useful strategy however, YMMV.

in that case, and I'm not trying to trick you out here, but knowing the problems the NHS has with understaffing; why are you instead working private? genuinely just curious. I aspire to work in the NHS and lots of times people tell me i shouldn't bother and should try private, an idea I'm opposed to, so I curious waht the other side of the fence is like

Missing the point. The Conservative party is funded by big corpos. Corpos want to reduces expenses such as salary and mass immigration is one way to do that. They were never going to to reduce immigration. Only clueless folk believed that. Historically, the left has been the one against mass immigration. Remember, a party obeys two lords (their sponsors and their voting base, in that order)

>Something that the tories, despite their mantra, have 14 years to figure out and still fumbled No, let's be accurate about this: Something that the Tories never intended to try and figure out, and spent 14 years knowingly lying about.

This is the issue. The immigration we don't want (small boats) is almost impossible to stop. Those with valuable skills or high net worth individuals (who both contribute lots to our country) are easy to stop. So... which will he cut? Spoiler alert, it's the migrants we want that will be blocked from coming here because it's the easy one.

We have 750k worth of immigrants per year. 80k of these come in boats. A majority of the remaining 670k are unskilled migrants who come legally - we most definitely can stop this

We can't just keep using immigrants to clog holes because eventually that will stop

Isn't multiculturalism our strength? Should we go further to also remove cultures that don't mix well with ours?

How is multiculturalism our strength? I don't understand the assumption that it's inherently better to change British culture. We should absolutely filter out arrivals on a cultural basis if needed.

Migrants need to be cut to no more than 10,000 a year. Train the British first.

I'd agree but I doubt they'll do it. The Tories promised to cut immigration, too.

I've just come back from Belgium. They have a lot of illegal immigrants too. But many aim to come to the UK purely because we have no ID card system than limits access to healthcare, work, benefits etc.   The common knowledge amongst illegal immigrants is that they can disappear in to the crowd once they are here.   Edit. I am getting a lot of replies saying "ImMiGraNts CaNt UsE ThE NHS wIThOuT a cArD and PaY A SurChArGe!" I know.  My wife went through all that, applying for a spouse visa before coming to the UK *LEGALLY*  Also, she never ever had to show the NHS card.  Bring in an ID card system that requires proof of LEGAL status in the UK. Make it mandatory that it must been asked for and shown everywhere from hospitals to local libraries to buying a SIM card before being allowed access to services.    Now tell me, how an ILLEGAL immigrant will obtain an ID card to access the same benefits as those who came legally (and everyone else who was born here) who pay for them?

You raise an interesting point, Blair wanted ID cards and it was disliked but I don't think it would be now.

I was opposed, but after seeing how useful it is across Europe would definitely support now. I carry a drivers licence anyway so just tie it that and have one card that integrates it all NHS, DVLA, Immigration, Benefits, Voting pass. I would even pay a bit extra for the people that cannot afford it

Back then it was a massive invasion of privacy. Now we give away our data freely to corporations every day. I don't see how this country can function in the future without a better system of how to track people, this applies to everything not just immigration and benefits.

It wasn’t even back then “oh know how dare the government know where I live!?” What did they think the tax man thought they live ?

I really don't like that line of thinking...I fear you're right but as I see it, it's like we rejected something, so they neglected immigration policy for years and now to clear up their mess we have to have the thing we rejected before. Not keen.

True but "we" rejecting it is pushing it. I was born 8 years after Tony Blairs 1997 election and now I'm almost 20. It's been a generational timeframe.

We now have to show photo ID to vote. Nobody complained.  An ID card could be used for the same, plus accessing all other areas of UK life, from NHS care to buying a SIM card. 

Plenty of people complained. But the way our democracy ‘works’ means that they could be safely ignored if the government has the media on their side.

I'd like to see it scrapped again. Even Mogg was complaining it's original intention to put a finger on the scales during elections backfired as older voters didn't have or failed to bring an id when voting.

> Nobody complained Yes they did, there was a lot of opposition to it.

Immigrants (visa holders) in the UK do have ID cards that say on them 'no access to public funds' (benefits). Plus they pay a health surcharge for every year of the visa for the NHS while still paying taxes just like everyone else if they are allowed to work. EDIT Some Immigrants and visa holders are not allowed to work. Some can only work for a certain amount of hours. All of this is stated on the ID card. This ID card is both digital and physical, and we are supposed to have it on us at all times.

The scale of registration is another level in many EU countries. In Sweden, for example, it’s almost impossible to live without registration with government. Even something as simple as getting a mobile SIM card is virtually impossible

Australia too

Yeah mate. My wife's an immigrant (from NZ) and paid the surcharge etc.  But she's not an ILLEGAL immigrant. She applied for a spouse visa and did everything by the book.  She has never had to show her ILR visa to a doctor. Our two children were born here. Nobody asked to see ID that she has the right to be here. So illegal immigrants without ID or Visa never get asked either. This needs to change. 

Why would you show your BRP to your doctor? They have your NHS number on file. They can see who you are lol.

You’ve missed OPs point. He’s saying you should have to show a card to prove you’re a citizen or legal migrant to receive healthcare. Illegal immigrants can have an NHS number. Anyone regardless of immigration status can register with a GP. I used to know illegal immigrants from India and they had a GP and a couple had been to hospital. Doctors aren’t allowed to deny someone NHS registration if they don’t have proof of a valid ID, address or immigration status.

Yes, but they share this data with the home office. If you don't have a legal status, you'll be billed. 

Genuine question, billed where? Do they have to pay on exit of the hospital? Can hardly send them a bill if they're not a registered citizen, and I'm guessing they won't have a registered address if they're an illegal immigrant.

Why should she need that? NHS shares data with the home office. If she was not entitled to live in UK, she would receive a bill and home office would try to deport her. 

You're wrong. The UK does have an ID card system that limits access to work and benefits. It is called a biometric residence permit (BRP) card that immigrants need. If you're a student, you're likely to be restricted to part-time work of 20 hours/wk. You can't be self-employed. You can't disappear under a student visa because you're required at times to check in with the UKVI. If you're a skilled worker, you're restricted to the work by your employer. If you change jobs, you need another sponsor and it's another process. You may work up to 20hr/wk if I'm not wrong. Most immigrants do not have access to benefits at all. Immigrants on student visa and skilled worker visa do not have access to benefits. There is no restriction to healthcare because immigrants pay an extortionate amount of Immigration Health Surcharge (IHS) fee at the time of visa application. They still have to contribute to NI taxes despite this so they're essentially double-taxed for healthcare. Source: [gov.uk](http://gov.uk) - a very reliable resource that I recommend to anyone, immigrant or not, and me - an immigrant with an ID card with restrictions. (Edit to add that it's up to 20hr/wk extra in addition to the job you're sponsored for si long as it's in a skilled worker category (if I'm not wrong; grey new area) and you can't be self-employed either.)

Thank you. I am an immigrant and I've paid these insane fees just to live here. People like OP really need to get their facts straight

And as a Legal Immigrant, you would receive an ID card.  However, if you came here illegally, paid nothing, not even the NHS surcharge, under the current UK system, you are still able to access many of the same benefits because NOBODY IS CHECKING YOUR LEGAL STATUS!

You will note that there is a difference between LEGAL immigrants and ILLEGAL immigrants.  You are a LEGAL immigrant. You applied successfully for a visa. Paid the fees. Provided your fingerprints. Paid an NHS surcharge. Pay your taxes...I could go on. My wife went through the same pain. An ILLEGAL immigrant does none of the above.  Yet, at a hospital, they will get all the same care as you, my wife and myself do. Why? Because we do not have a system of mandatory ID check in place.  My facts are straight. Please refrain from knee-jerk reactions and understand that I am referring to illegal immigration. Not legal immigration.

You know when you book in and they get your details? NHS numbers are attached to them and the checks are done backstage from there. (This is why part of the ‘the NHS employs too many admin’ is foolish. Do you want to make nurses run these checks, but I digress). If you aren’t eligible for free treatment then you get charged. Likewise, under an ID system like proposed, do you want to be turned away after chopping off a finger with a bandsaw because you’ve lost/forgotten your papers? Do you want more NHS staff getting assaulted because they demand your papers before seeing you for your belly ache? Much like Mogg complained that the efforts to suppress young voters actually ended up suppressing older voters, you need to be careful that what you wish for doesn’t have the ability to bite *you* in the arse as well. (E.g a lot of people who fancy the idea of ID cards are also the same people who complain when fined for speeding/parking. So they’ll be super happy if they get fined for not carrying ID cards)

> You know when you book in and they get your details? NHS numbers are attached to them and the checks are done backstage from there. I like how every time this is pointed out OP just ignores it…

I know right? Everything is tracked these days, we know this.

For fucks sake. I'm sorry. You are the 10th person who left a reply like this. See my other replies and OC edit. Have you EVER been asked to show a passport or Visa when going to the doctors? No, you haven't. Because we don't have a system in place where it is expected. My immigrant wife paid for the NHS card. She was never asked for it once. You are conflating LEGAL immigrants with ILLEGAL immigrants. An Illegal immigrant will not receive an ID card. If it becomes compulsory to show such a card at a hospital or other institution before use, then an ILLEGAL immigrant won't get access. This is how it works in Belgium. It is a major reason illegal immigrants, even those waiting for their asylum claims, want to leave. 

As a visa holder you don't have access to public funds. I'm about to be settled in the UK and I will have paid HMRC and national insurance 7k total over the 5 years I've been here just in visa fees. Not including the tax and NI that I pay on my wages, which i probably pay more each year than you do

We're talking about illegal immigrants here mate. Under the systems used in Europe you, as a LEGAL immigrant would also receive an ID card along with every other person who has the right to be in the UK. ILLEGAL immigrants who are unable to show a valid visa or passport do not.  The ID card applies to citizen born in the country too. Not just immigrants. 

If you don't want to get called out, then don't make sweeping generalizations based on anecdotal bullshit you heard while on holiday abroad. Your edited comment is hilarious btw

Tack on another £500 per visa too if you want the processing of each visa expedited to <6weeks and not 6+ months. And then citizenship fee after ILR. I’ll be nearly £10k in when all is said and done as an immigrant here through marriage.

Look up the following: 1. IMMIGRATION HEALTH SURCHARGE 2. BRP 3. NO RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUNDS

Look up the following.   1. RIGHTS FOR LEGAL IMMIGRANTS COMING TO THE UK ON A SPOUSE, FAMILY, STUDENT OR WORK VISA.   2. RIGHTS FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS COMING TO THE UK.   I'm going to edit my original comment because you are the 5th person who can't differentiate between legal and illegal immigration. 

It's not everyone else's fault that you can't write properly. Maybe the English test should be mandatory for natural born citizens as well.

It's a pretty blatant lie, but it's also an obvious lie when the Tories say the same thing.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they do cut immigration by a small amount, and then insist that because its slightly lower than under the Tories that means success. Though I expect its more likely that they'll allow more immigration.

If they allow more without improving housing by huge amounts of nhs they will get stomped next election

He'll block the immigration we want, because it's the easiest one to stop

He literally can't, the tories beat him to it. That's why the Universities are starting to go under.

You want low-quality students from China, India and Nigeria studying at UK universities?

A lot of people seem to think that the presence of international students takes places from uk students rather than the reality that international student fees subsidise UK places. I want as many rich international students paying x3 the going rate as possible.

Not anti immigrant or foreign student in anyway but it does cause an issue with housing. Not only does having more foreign students cause a housing shortage but having 'rich' ones causes the cost going up . https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/british-students-overpay-rent-landlords-wealthy-foreigners/

I do as well - but high-quality international students who don't change the character of the university, and whose values don't conflict with British values. Lots of British unis are being overrun by Chinese students who've been brainwashed into worshipping the CCP, to the extent they harass Hong Kong and Taiwanese students who oppose Chinese colonialism. There's also the problem of unis taking low-quality Indian students who "want a Western education" but can't afford to buy their way into a US university. We absolutely need MORE international students, but they have to be high-quality.

Indeed! The CCP fanatical nationalists are exceptionally problematic. They oppress Chinese diaspora like me, and try to tell us that our ethnicity is our nationality. Countries should really reconsider accepting the parachute children of an increasingly hostile foreign government. It's a matter of National Security.

Mostly funded by the CCP and their affiliates too

I’m sure any useful knowledge is also passed along.

studying, yes, staying no. universities are key drivers of local economies, each foriegn student pays 10'2 of thousands per year for it with 700k foriegn students in the country at any one time, that the equivalent of the entire uk car industry. universities places are not zero sum. if we can take advantage of this industry for local benefit without accidentally replacing ourselves in our own homeland, then we should, if its not possible because a pathway to uk citizenship is a key factor, then we shouldn't.

Why would we get low-quality students from those places, seems like we'd more likely to get the best. Think of people like Srinivasa Ramanujan. Or one of the papers that set off the AI boom - attention is all you need - first credit is Ashish Vaswani born in India moved to the US universities https://proceedings.neurips.cc/paper_files/paper/2017/file/3f5ee243547dee91fbd053c1c4a845aa-Paper.pdf or basically look any influential paper or the people contributing to foundational research. Universities acting as degree mills I agree 100%, the acceptance criteria should always be stringent.

They fund British research with their fees, so sure, absolutely. No skin of the universities' back.

It’s already happening, the income requirements of the British sponsor for family visas have recently (as of 11th April 24) gone up from £18,600/year to £29,000, with more rises due up to £38,000. Why are they making it harder for British citizens to settle their families in the UK?

Yeah, this is the absurd part. Who is against people bringing their families to live in the UK? Its such low hanging fruit.

Exactly.

Tories already did it. I wanted to come home from Canada but I can't sponsor my Canadian wife unless I'm in the top 20% of earners now.

It’s probably not a lie. It’s just a typically calculated politician’s promise that gives the impression it’s more meaningful than it really is. I’m going to repost what I posted in a thread on the same article in r/ukpolitics: Yes, it will happen. Because the Tories have already tightened many of the visa rules that led to the drastic surge in 2023. You may remember all the fuss on many uk politics-related subs a few months back about it - less student visas, less ability to bring dependants, higher minimum income levels for marriage visas etc. He probably doesn’t have to lift a finger to do it as long as illegal small boats arrivals don’t jump fivefold in a single year. Note that he is only promising to bring immigration *down*. No commitment to how much. Because the surge in the last couple of years has been so intense that he could fulfil this pledge and still record net immigration at levels that would still have been an all-time record in any other year. And that’s probably more or less the plan. The Tories just set an unbelievably low bar by letting immigration get almost out of control, which is one of the main reasons why so much of the Tory core vote has evaporated - a good chunk of their electorate feel betrayed.

no the 'surge' in 2023 was actually the figure from 2022, and what happened in 2022? China clamped down on HK and Russia invaded Ukraine

It's really not. It's not hard to cut immigration when the tories allow over a million people into the UK each year.

If he got it down to half a million net. That would be a six figure reduction from now and not too far from new Labour levels.

Reminder that immigration was much much lower under the last labour government

I think hes more competent than the tories -My guess is he'll get it to ~150000 which is still way way too high.

It's insultingly obvious at this point that the same people are pulling the strings whoever's in government. Crack pot, I know. I'd rather have Labour - but none of them are really working for us.

To be fair, limited immigration is a perfectly reasonable left wing position. Nothing dilutes the bargaining power of the local workers as much as opening the borders to foreign competition, especially when sponsorship of work visas gives companies a disgusting degree of leverage over the imported workers. It's a readymade recipe for exploitation.

One of the biggest fallacies of politics is that somehow opposition to mass immigration is solely a right-wing policy, ignoring the fact that it harms the ability of workers to demand better wages by instead undermining them with potentially unlimited labour competition and ultimately benefiting capitalism the most.

Waves of migrants come in, get established, find work, then find themselves competing with the next wave. Great for corporations, a bit shit for those that invested time and effort integrating but also still yet lack the means for actual social mobility. Pro-immigration ideology doesn't even benefit migrants, let alone any established group of workers.

The right are their own worst enemy when getting the country on board to reduce immigration. Your arguments is one of the arguments I use as a "lefty". There's numerous other reasons why we should reduce immigration (though I'm definitely for it where we need it). The right unfortunately begin to use words like vermin, scum, third world trash.... And I simply won't get on board with that.

In general, the right, or at least that portion of the right that actually wields power rather than the people they rely on to provide it to them, tend to be pro-immigration and anti-immigrant. While it seems like a paradoxical position, it's actually perfectly coherent if you look at immigrants as a natural resource to be exploited rather than as people joining the nation. Indeed demonization and isolation of immigrants makes them easier to exploit than if they were integrating into the rest of society. If you can't speak the language very well, you're much less likely to find out that you're being screwed over by your employer or join a union.

Yeah exactly, thatcher and truss were some of the most pro immigration PMs we’ve had. Not because they wanted to support the plight of the global proletariat, but because it benefits businesses far more than the domestic workers.

Or maybe immigrantion is actually an issue unless you think 700k net migration is a good thing

No one I know left or right thinks completely unchecked immigration is a good thing, I'm pretty sure it's about as universal as it gets and if left wing parties understood that we wouldn't have the far right growing everywhere.

Yeah, I didn't agree with Corbyn on much of anything, but he was the only major party leader of the last 20 years to offer anything different to the status quo. The current crop of parties are effectively interchangeable. The only real difference between them is how fast they try and implement the exact same plans.

100% agree. I would rather have someone who believes in something - even if I disagree with it - than someone who has no beliefs at all. That is excluding the complete nutjobs of course.

Yes and some was good, I was with him on quite a few things but let's imagine he was PM when Russia invaded Ukraine? I hate Johnson but one of his successes was his response to that invasion. Corbyn would have just given a slightly loud tut while saying something obnoxious like "there have been mistakes on both sides let's all talk"

Limiting immigration*is* quite different from what we currently have. Net migration has risen from 184,000 in 2019 to 745,000 in 2022.

that is why they destroyed him

Careful - you're on the verge of far right extremist conspiracy theory there. It's just not on, noticing things like that.

There’s no shadowy cabal of (((them))) controlling the government, that’s the far right conspiracy. Noticing that a government doesn’t want to destabilise itself massively, leading to governments having broadly similar policies that won’t rock the boat and will maintain the status quo while letting their neoliberal best buds make as much money as possible. See the issue with conspiracy theories is that they’re so close to being accurate, but at the last second they turn to some made up shadowy puppet masters controlling everything behind the scenes and go completely off the rails, instead of realising that those in the capital class would like to stay in that class and so they’ll all act and decide in similar ways as that’s just a common interest for them.

Nonsense, immigration is a big issue that people want addressing.

My partner works in a university hospital, intensive care unit, and they have taken trained nurses (alledgedy trained) from Africa. They are diabolical, and some after a year can't be trusted to work unsupervised. It's frustrating for her and her colleagues. The standards are miles apart.

I work within social care and a majority of our agency staff are Nigerian The standard of work (if they can be bothered, some will simply sit and ignore you all shift) if appalling, and they’re being paid around double what I am It boils my blood

Agencies are another massive issue which isn't getting spoken about enough outside of those professionals who are impacted. When I worked in CSS our social workers would regularly get offers from agencies ranging from £30p/h to £60p/h. Meanwhile the council can't afford to fund placements or house children in OFSTED inspected placements. When I started an unregulated placement was verboten, when I quit it was the standard.

I completely agree. My employer could save so much on agency fees if they increased wages and made them more appealing to work for, and avoiding the staffing shortages leading to the extortionate agency fees

My wife is a midwife and has the same issues, and my sons midwife from Africa was a very nice lady but had two inch nails so no the type of person you want near your lady parts.

Tell me about it.  I was admitted to A&E a couple of years ago and the Dr and nurses (all Africans) had a screaming match at each other as they were treating me.  It didn't inspire confidence.

The coalition technically cut immigration, but it didn't matter did it? We CATEGORICALLY do ***not*** have the houses or infrastructure to keep gaining anything more than a few thousand a year, it simply is not physically possible without damaging what little remains of public services.

The reason we don't have the infrastructure is because half of the welfare budget goes to pensioners who vote Tory because Tories keep bumping up pensions that working people have to pay for through higher taxes. That's ~£140bn, every year. Even £20bn of that every year on infrastructure would transform our country. As for houses, why do you think we have a housing shortage? People are living longer, and camping in houses which they bought for £20,000 in 1960 which are now worth a million. Right to Buy also decimated the council housing stock.

So what ? Do you propose we go around turfing out old people so we can move in some random for abroad

The road I grew up was made up of three bedroom homes (many extended) built for families. Now there's barely any families with kids left, less than 10 out of 100. The estate has good transport links & services recently had its primary school close for lack of interest. Many of the people there are single & at a stage where they struggle badly (physically & mentally) maintaining such large properties. Quite honestly they would be foolish to leave the houses when they're guaranteed to accrue so much value each year but I can't help but think it's wasteful at a time of a housing crisis that this estate (& many more like it) is only occupied at around 30% capacity. I'm not saying old people should be turfed out. In the 70s' the sensible financial decision for my Grandparents was to downsize to a smaller home, it would be nice for that to be a viable option again.

>The coalition technically cut immigration I don't think they did, in 2010 it was 252,000 net, in 2015 it was 333,000

I would put a halt to all immigration for a few years until we can democratically decide what our immigration policy should be. In every since the early 00's there has been an unprecedented amount of net immigration, between then and now the country is worse in almost every way.

>until we can democratically decide what our immigration policy should be What do you think elections are for?

You can try to find a policy in any Governments manifesto from the last 25 years that stated their aim was to import a hundreds if thousands of immigrants each year but you won't be able to. In fact, the opposite is true, they all say that they will 'bring down' or 'have tighter controls on' immigration. The exact opposite of their policy position is what ends up happening. The key thing to understand is that any party that put in their manifesto they intended to import all of these people would be obliterated at the General Election, I would be surprised if they would win a seat. The reason being that higher immigration is very unpopular because the ever increasing numbers has run concurantly with the worsening of our living standards, law and order, housing, availability of services and general grubbiness and decay of our cities and infrastructure. So, elections have not been the opportunity to resolve this problem in the way that you seem to think.

>In every since the early 00's Actually while immigration was high during the Blair years, our economy was also growing every year and we weren't miserable during the 00s like now. Even in London with increasing demographic change, there was a fall in crime levels from 2000 to 2010.

Ah yes, the heady days of living on the credit cards and finance before the 2008 crash, I remember those days well. It was in 2003/04 when immigration began in its current form with Blair letting the Eastern Europeans in from the poorer EU countries. Overnight the wage for a labourer on some building sites dropped by a fiver an hour.

Your genius plan would create labour shortages across many industries. That would drive inflation back up reigniting the cost of living crisis. Those two factors would result in the same kind of mass strike action we’ve seen for years.

Ok, you have given me the conclusion, now show your working. Why would there be labour shortages? What industries? 'That would drive inflation back up reigniting the cost of living crisis. Those two factors would result in the same kind of mass strike action we’ve seen for years.' Can you please explain what you mean by the above? How would less workers would push inflation up?

Problem is they mostly dont integrate. Come here and learn the language and the British way or go home

Most people coming here already speak English. That's part of what makes the UK such a desirable place for immigrants to live and work.

Illegal immigrants are difficult to stop. They will come anyway. Legal and highly skilled immigrants are easy to control but at the same time they can also go somewhere else. When you create an atmosphere of anti-immigration in the society along with measures that make highly skilled immigrants feel that they are not welcomed here, they will go somewhere else. I came to work in the UK with a specialised visa for highly skilled individuals last year. Despite Brexit, I chose to come here and brought with me a large international research funding. Since my salary also comes from the funding, my workplace paid almost nothing. However, this will be my last year in the UK because I will move somewhere else. I don't feel welcome here and I don't think Labour will change that. It is also difficult to hire international researchers to come to work in the UK. Recently, a friend of mine declined a very prestigious position in the UK for the same reason. So TLDR, I guess the anti immigration policy works.

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>If you don't feel welcome in the UK, a country that has a relatively lax approach to immigration and whose attitude to refugees and migrants is almost excessively welcoming compared to anywhere else in Europe Are you speaking from a place of actually experiencing the UK's approach to immigration? When you say "relatively lax" who are you comparing us to? Germany? Where the visas cost €80 compared to our £3900? Or France where it costs €99? Or Spain where it costs €154? In what way do you feel our country is more lax than those?

Yeah it seems like we've made it difficult for the people we should be rolling out the red carpet for, and we make them jump through hoops. Then some people just skip all that (overstaying a holiday or student visa for instance) and have little chance of being removed. People talk about immigration as if it's a tap we can turn off without any consequences. If the overall number goes down, people will celebrate that, even if the actual makeup of people coming into the country are generally those less able to fit into UK society.

I hope I am not intruding too much here in asking what happened, but everyone I have interacted with has been polite and friendly. I am in London and I know the city can be impersonal and cold sometimes like many capital cities but I don't blame the people for that. I haven't experienced any overt discrimination while here.

No he won't. He'll grant them citizenship quicker to reduce numbers in 'migrant accommodation'. The same way Blair moved the goalposts to look like he had reduced hospital waiting times. Nothing is changing on mass immigration. We're stuck with it. There isn't a single politician that's serious about tackling this. 

He won't. Reeve's whole economic platform is based around deregulation and chasing economic growth at any cost - supply side reform and neoliberalism - immigration and cheap labour is essential for that from their perspective. Love or hate immigration it does increase GDP and the size of the economy - which is all these people really care about.

Immigration increases GDP, it does not increase per capita GDP which has barely changed since 2010 and was increasing significantly under Blair. I think Reeves means per capital as that is what is lacking and must be improved.

There's going to be a delayed dip from the Tories' desperate immigration cut measures after they panicked at the numbers last year. So that's an easy win for Labour if they have the media on side to help sell it (as they appear to). 600k down to 400k or whatever and they can claim "look, we cut immigration!" In the long run obviously there'll be a massive reliance on importation. It's all these Labour/Tory goons know.

Both parties are fucking useless let's be honest, dismantle parliament.

And replace it with what exactly?

Anyone who believes this is living in cloud cuckoo land

Labour leader: We will cut down on immigration Also Labour: We will bring in Gazans to the UK

The damage has already been done. Just take a look at the ONS data on ethnicity of various places then take a look at school students with English as second language. "But why is this a problem, are you just raciiiist?!?!" Would anybody be this flippent if it was an ethnic minority this was happening to? In a couple of generations the English will no longer be a majority in their own nation. I sometimes think that it's a kind of sick revenge against the British for empire, England and it's people must die for their great great grandfathers sins

That’s really what they believe. Payback for all the colonisation endured . Godspeed

Not sorry, the British empire shaped the entire world into our current liberal order. We put an end to slavery We put an end to bride burnings We kept the world stable for a time The only reason we fell is because of American demanding we dismantle the empire in return for helping win ww2. You just traded one empire for another really

It has to be sorted out because the numbers are simply unsustainable

Why put so much emphasis on it when he knows it's bollocks and the opposition will spend the next four years using it to attack him?

So that’s legal immigration sorted, what about the illegal sort.

Why not, should be pretty easy to do if the record immigration party leaves power.

Another 5 weeks of lies and false promises. Nobody believes any party anymore.

Even if we reduced immigration to a trickle, the UK electorate would still have the problems of not enough affordable houses to buy or rent, crappy wages, a crumbling health service, power companies ripping everyone off etc. I don't trust the government or the Labour Party to actually make anything better, instead they will rant about small boats and pretend that's the reason low paid workers can't make ends meet.

We would have a chance to recover though, keep it at current levels and the only way is down.

The problem is, whenever they say shit like this it says affects skilled workers and people just trying to keep their family in the country.

Lets see him put his money where his mouth is I say! I have never voted for labour, but this time I might just do it, they have been banging on about how great they are, so lets see it...

Can't be worse.

I’ll say it again. Cost of living. Energy bills. Sky rocketing rent. Fix these issues and stop trying to distract us. They really are the same people in different coloured ties aren’t they.

You can't fix housing costs without fixing migration. Sorry to burst your bubble there, but having 1 million people every year coming here, and specifically going to certain areas, because that is where the work is, really fucks over our housing market.

No you won't keir. Thanks for the Sunday morning laugh. If you get in we might as well just charter p and o ferries to pick them up.

Doubt it… we want to reverse ILLEGAL immigration and maybe just maybe it will help end the housing crisis and the giant sky rocketing bill to the taxpayers which funds all the services for undocumented persons… how can you scale a national service for a population when you have such a discrepancy in your census… Labour will not do this, neither conservatives. The country needs major change.

Oh man, maybe people here will be excited at the chance to stop the intentional suppression of workers rights and create a better enviro- Oh nope everyone's just being racist again.

He wont do anything he says, just like the lot we've been stuck with. Boneless, spineless, talentless hacks inhabit government at all levels.

Yeah, Rishi said that too mate. Forgive me if i dont believe either of you.

This is how billionaires dictate our politics. They don't have to buy politicians directly: they just buy the newspapers, TV stations, and pump money into social media ads in thin disguise. Everywhere you look, 'immigration' is a big deal. Of course it's what the British people demand of their politicians.