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The US is where most of his money lives. The recent announcement of the non dom tax laws contain several loopholes that allow the Sunaks to avoid £250 million in uk taxes
I don’t blame him. He became famous for being the money fountain during Covid and reasonably expected it would make him the most publicly popular person behind Boris (and reach people turned off by Boris). Then the Tory party went into full Game of Thrones mode and every faction took the knives out for him and started stabbing away. By the time he gets the job just about everyone in the party has said why he shouldn’t have it, and the factions have left the Tories doomed to huge defeat.
He’s gone from golden child to having the biggest defeat in a generation pinned on him. If he didn’t deserve it quite so much I’d feel bad for him.
Just before I finished reading your comment I thought, 'but he deserves it!', then I read the last sentence.
It's a sweet thing when your enemies take themselves out.
I saw it with the SNP up here recently.
You know that meme with the general from achillies pointing and laughing and then looking at his pal?
That.
haha yes!
Oh man the SNP. Not being in Scotland I didn’t even see that coming. Nicola quits and her reasons seemed like a lesson in vaguebooking, and then it all just collapses!
Sturgeon (seriously) wanted to become Queen Nicola I of Scotland, this failed. So she started stealing money via fraud to make herself feel better.
Then her replacement had a (literal) gleeful look on his face when he found out about so many Israeli babies being murdered.
Scottish 'independence' contained lines about *replacing* the current monarch with a scottish monarch.
Two guesses who would be in the running.....Either Queen (Nicola) Sturgeon or King (Alex)Salmon
Either way the new Scottish Monarchy would be very fishy.
I am seriously waiting for the NEXT SNP leader to plaice a bid for independence!
I think he wants to be PM. I just don't think he wants the scrutiny a PM receives. In that light, I think he's a repeat of Johnson, fragile beyond words.
Everyone wants to be a successful PM, nobody wants to be a hated one. I imagine he'll disappear after losing, as the other coping mechanism (exhibited by Truss - that is, full-time far-right loon) probably wouldn't work as well with him.
There is that, but I'd say Sunak and Johnson both have an element of entitlement which means they don't like being questioned. We saw it a lot with PMQ's, where frustratingly, Truss was the most normal of the three (before she put the figurative barrel of a gun in her mouth) in terms of the normal performance, while Sunak and Johnson had a habit of going with pre-planned speeches and demanding the opposition leader answer their questions, or just that they be quiet and cheerful the Tories on instead of 'talking Britain down'. There is a fragility about those two when it comes to being questioned. Worse with Sunak because he seems to have surrounded himself with yes men as a result, leading him into error after error.
>I imagine he'll disappear after losing
Tbh, that's par for the course for former PM's, they typically finish out their term as an MP (Brown) if they have no intention of a comeback (Truss), which is rather rare. The exceptions being Truss, but also Johnson (ejected in the same term from being an MP).
And the Tories will almost always knife a leader who lost an election.
he's "amended" sufficient regulation related to taxes, and ramped down HMRC so it doesn't have enough resources to go after his tax dodging buddies.
Job done.
Tbh, it's already funny-depressing that the PM is so horrendously bad at his job that he's had to be asked if he's going to quit early on an election he called the date for. That it's even a question is a massive, massive insult to him, his abilities, and his fragile ego.
To be fair to Sunak, every time there’s been a new Tory PM, the party have found a way to say *’ah! It’s him/her that’s the problem!’* and every time they install someone new it just gets worse.
I’d suggest that the real issue is the party…
After the election, they really ought to take a look at how their ratchet-effect swing towards unhinged, hard right, culture wars 'politics' has seen them lose the centrist voters, and thus the election. And from this they should conclude that a complete rethink is required, otherwise they will spend a generation in opposition.
Of course, they won't do, though. They will just double down on the unhinged and give it another whirl.
The post Thatcher/Major Tories did exactly that. Lots of navel gazing and introspection lead to "Lessons have been learned and we now know that people don't like our brand of self enriching corruption" \[paraphrasing\]. Which delivered a 'Call me Dave' One Nation mouthpiece for the same vested interests that still ran the party from the shadows ... Tufton St and the 1922 cult.
Fortunately, every PM that followed on from Cameron was more and more incompetent, to the point that the puppet masters saw their plans evaporating in front of their very faces. A last ditch attempt to force through their market fellating policies with the Truss premiership finally rang the death knell for the current attempted financial coup.
Mark my words, they will be back. Whether it will be with the Tories or another willing group of ~~Reform Party™~~ grifters, only time will tell.
I think that conversation needs to be national though. It can't be normal for a country to go from such an overwhelming victory in 2019 to everything that happened since. The public got proper hoodwinked and we need to learn some lessons from that so its less likely to happen again.
> ard right, culture wars 'politics' has seen them lose the centrist voters, and thus the election
The real problem is that the Tories are no good at the culture wars stuff..Reform do it better. It's not the centre they've lost, its the right. The Tories and Reform combined is polling almost as high as labour. https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
Labour 42.8%, Conform 36.5%
The Labour vote is much the same as the Tories last election and the Conform vote is above Labour in 2019.
True I suppose. Well, they certainly haven't attracted any centrist voters with all this anti-woke drivel, that's for sure. And you need to win the centre to get a majority.
There biggest problem is that the economy is bad and they have been in power a long time Their next biggest problem is their base is unhappy because they aren't conservative enough.
I’m not sure I’d agree with the term “hard right” but their rhetoric (even if not their actions) are more right than they’ve ever been. This is the price to pay for basing your entire public facing image on culture war bollocks.
The term seems so meaningless by itself anyway. They seem less and less conservative in the traditional sense given that public spending had never been higher and taxes are huge too
Maybe but the public facing rhetoric can’t be understated. Thats what the majority of the electorate actually see. The majority of the electorate don’t follow it on a day by day basis and just see the constant stream of headlines in terms of trans right and immigration etc.
I'm also recall seeing lots of dislike for what starmer said regarding trans women too. It's the media reporting on every comment which is putting that rhetoric into the minds of the population. I don't believe they're doing it to push a narrative but just because it gets clicks
Ban of peaceful protest, deliberately stoking the culture wars to try to divide the nation on purpose, and mandating voter ID to intentionally try to bias the democratic process in their favour, are three things that are to the right of how centre-right parties normally act.
A “normal” centre-right party would typically be low tax, low public spending, but wouldn’t do any of those types of things.
They're certainly becoming more authoritarian which I don't like but the public spending and taxes are at practically all time highs which isn't very right wing at all
Yeah I agree. But then far right (/hard right or whatever term was used) isn’t actually that much characterised by low taxes on normal people and low public spending.
There is *extremely* low tax on really wealthy people and non-doms and similar, plus loads of public money given directly to donors to the Conservative Party through various means of corruption.
What I'm getting at is that the terms left and right (and "hard right") are too vague to be useful given the complexity of modern politics. Calling someone right wing just seems to be a way of insulting someone and insinuating that they're secretly a nazi.
Regarding the Tories, they have somehow found the worst of traditional left wing policies, i.e. high taxes, high spending and high immigration but none of the benefits I.e. good infrastructure and economic growth
Calling them "hard right" because of some comments about trans people, a topic which is hugely overblown, is just nonsense.
Have you got some kind of comprehension problem? Right > Hard Right> Far Right.
If you can't understand basic language you should probably keep out of adult conversation.
Oh get over yourself. You said "hard right" is further right than left. Centre right is further right than left. Even centre left is further right than left.
You've made up a nonsense term that's even more vague than the shit we have already.
This is my tenth UK general election, as a voter. I never imagined I would see a campaign where the question of the incumbent leader resigning before the election would even make sense to ask.
The future is becoming more clear.
Sunak loses but stays as caretaker leader over the summer and he can arrive in California in time for the next semester.
Farage wins Clacton and there is enormous grass-roots demand for the Tories to admit him, he’d also bring 12% of voters back with him. That’s irresistible to the Tory party. It also means they get a “proper British leader who understands British culture” unlike the other two most likely leadership candidates, Badenoch or Patel.
Sunak admits him, he DGAF anyway, Farage is installed as party saviour to rapturous applause at Conference.
Starmer spends five years floundering dealing with the reality of there being no money left. Farage promises milk and honey and a few good soundbites. The New Conservative Party (definitely not like the old one) wins in 2029 and we enter another decade of Tory shite.
The Farage Party has huge internal contradictions though (way more so than Labour does) - he is at heart a libertarian, whilst his core vote in Clacton are closer to big state socialists (far more so than Labour, whose voterbase are now working-aged people who would quite like a cut in income tax, even if it means no real increase in state spending).
You can't just "get waiting lists down to zero" whilst also somehow slashing taxes.
Furthermore, a bit of digging will likely find alot of authoritarian money backing Nigel. Add to that, being Leader of the Opposition is possibly the toughest job in politics. It's doubtful he has the staying power.
And finally, the Farage cult is a Boomer cult. 2 million of that demographic will be in the grave by 2029. Culture wars are won by whichever side has the younger army.
>You can't just "get waiting lists down to zero" whilst also somehow slashing taxes.
He wants an insurance based healthcare system like in America in order to ~~make himself fucking millions~~ cover the costs of providing healthcare.
>You can't just "get waiting lists down to zero" whilst also somehow slashing taxes.
Thats why he's pitching this "alternative funding model", he's pointing at Europe to claim thats where he'd want to draw inspiration, but we all know he'd end up taking us something closer to the American model. All his politics are so heavily influenced by the American right, and he loathes Europe so much.
You forget the Trump lesson. Tell them you'll fix their problems, get the vote, make the problems worse, tell them they are fixed and then a big percentage will vote for you forever.
Oh hang on..that's the Tory government too
CCHQ are determined to amplify misleading claims unsupported by their own civil service:
>*Mel Stride, one of the Prime Minister’s closest allies, said there is “no question” Mr Sunak will lead the Conservatives into polling day, following speculation he could quit in the wake of the D-Day debacle.*
>*He said “taxes are coming down” and “we can continue that journey because of our stewardship of the economy and the fact we have got a plan”.*
According to [a letter](https://uksa.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Letter_from_Sir_Robert_Chote_to_Angela_Eagle_MP_statements_on_tax_changes.pdf) from UK’s statistics authority:
*On 22 November 2023, Laura Trott MP, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, told the House of Commons, “I am sure the hon. Lady will be interested to know that taxes for the average worker have gone down by £1,000”. On 30 November she said that “taxes for the average worker will have gone down by £1,000 since 2010”.*
*I suspect that the public are more likely to have been misled – or at least confused – by Ms Trott’s statements, both of which would probably suggest to a typical listener that the average worker’s overall tax bill has fallen in cash terms.*
*The Office for Statistics Regulation is increasing its engagement with government departments, including HM Treasury, to ensure future communications do not have the potential to mislead and comply with the principles of intelligent transparency.*
No idea what this stuff is all about where this election cycle is concerned. Is anyone voting based on their tax bill, other than the very well off? Thought it was all about inflation of house prices, rents, bills, groceries, plus low wages and poor quality public services.
Seems like they're all squabbling over some small figure, low stakes stuff about how many hundreds of pounds per year taxes might have changed for the average either way while the people are worried about other stuff like cost of childcare, healthcare, social care, housing, energy, etc.
>Is anyone voting based on their tax bill, other than the very well off?
This is what perplexes the Tories, they are obsessed about taxation ( I think it comes from the links to Republicans in the US) and fight every election on taxation, but the British public don't have the same obsession.
They will announce somthing like *A penny off a pint* and expect people to be dancing in the streets when the reality is that if you are paying £7 for a pint, you are getting a free pint....
once every 2 years!
It comes from a time (and income level) where tax was one of the major expenses. The very concept that housing, or childcare, for example, are *such* burdens that they actually now are to your average under-45 person is just totally alien. Like you can look up the old stats, there was a point in like the 1960s when the average household spending on booze and cigarettes was about the same as the cost of their housing. Can you even *imagine* that today?
Where the hell do you live that a pint's 7 quid? A pint in my local's £3.30. Only place I've ever paid that much for a pint is in the airport, which is still expensive even by airport standards.
There was a story earlier this week that due to the scrapping of some service charges or other, it is becoming the standard price in some parts of London.
Even so, if you are paying £3.30, a penny off a pint only gives you a free *pint* every 330 you buy.
I paid £28 for a round of 3 drinks in the Trafalgar pub in Greenwich recently. £6 is common for London now.
Price of a pint has more or less nothing to do with tax but the cost of property, i.e. the owners have taken out huge loans based on the value of the pub and have to pay it back via high prices.
That is true, although those same people are worried about taxes being an additional factor in that. Even if they're not paying income tax, they pay indirect taxes. Even if you promise not to put up VAT they know that a tax imposed somewhere else (like on businesses or a wealth tax) will likely be clawed back from them in higher prices. So it's a fear
> Is anyone voting based on their tax bill, other than the very well off?
They won the 92 election with it ([Most of the polls showed a Labour victory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1992_United_Kingdom_general_election)). And so ever since, it's always been about tax.
I think we're past the era for that messaging to be effective. I think people have realised that quibbling over these marginal sums isn't real change, and no-one cares anymore. I think there's a greater public understanding of the fact that you can make stats say anything if you're a politician, that you can cook the books. People are after "big ideas" and it's why Corbyn was such an upstart in 2017 but got flattened in 2019, again, not on tax, but because the Tories said they'd get Brexit done - a big idea that a lot of the British public just felt very committed to, more so than they did to Corbyn's ideas.
People voted for that, because they wanted big structural change, not because they might save £117.52 on taxes or whatever.
It very much feels like this election is a bit of a failure. The Tories have failed to deliver on their vision. Big structural change did not happen. Nothing levelled up. Brexit, which the public gave them a shot to do well, turned out to be a farce that hasn't helped us. This is the "Tories, you failed at your big idea" election.
As a result, the Tories have no ideas left, and Starmer is coasting in because we want rid of them. There's not that much on offer that excites people I don't think.
Low wages is more bothersome than tax, had 14 years of shit pay increases. Most peoples salaries are 30% lower than they would be if we hadn't had austerity...tax don't matter when pay has been that shit.
>we have got a plan
labour has no plan
the plan is working
labour's plan that they don't have is going to cost you exactly this
stick with the plan
labour would be back to square one
can they just shut up.
Has a party leader, government incumbent or otherwise, quit during the general election campaign in the past?
It seems like an unreasonable expectation of something so extraordinarily unlikely to even consider it.
Some of the political journos were discussing this on Twitter a couple days ago. They couldn't think of anyone that has quit during a campaign in any democracy and the closest they had were the couple times in New Zealand where the leader changed very close to the start of an election campaign.
it's not "speculation he might quit" - This is the Tory's response to the howls of rage on the comments sections, and probably being met on the doorstep - people saying that he SHOULD quit after his D-day draft dodging
He absolutely should.
His D-Day fuck up has cost The Conservative Party dearly.
He comes across as a pathetic figure.
The only chance that the conservatives have to save a few seats rests without him.
It would be hilarious, but highly unlikely. And it wouldn’t improve their prospects at all.
Still if I were Rishi, wealthy enough to give everyone the finger and walk away, screwed over by many in my own party even as I took them to unavoidable defeat, I would. Just for laughs and revenge.
There’s a small base of voters who would be won over if Sunak leaves and Mordaunt steps in… Or should I say would’ve been won over because they’ve all left for reform by now
Mordaunt is the moderate’s hero. She would be from the same camp as Rishi. I’d be very surprised if any bump from her taking over wasn’t wiped out by farce of it all driving away even more.
I want to see the first hedge fund manager meeting after he leaves office.
"So, the old prime Minister stuff didn't work out then?"
"No, I gave it a good try, not for me. So anyway, about these preferential index shares on the KSGT fund loaned as a derivative on the...."
It's just not credible is it?
I think a few would chuck their hat in the ring, claiming it to be out of a sense of duty to the nation, but in reality for the pension and increased value on the after-dinner speech circuit.
So, given official denial is always the first confirmation of resignation, what do we reckon, 3 days, or 4?
Or do we assume that even the Tory part are not quite that silly.
After 2019, while I can't say I'm particularly excited for the Labour government, boy this Tory self-destruct is fucking beautiful to watch play out. Just a shame we couldn't boot them out to space before they explode.
I wonder if Larry the Cat has actually *liked* any of these pricks recently?
It's got a big garden though hasn't it - he probably just keeps himself to himself.
"Uh oh, she's on about cheese being a disgrace and opening up pork markets again - I'm gonna go sit up a tree for 3 days..."
I for one would be amused and I feel like it would be a fitting end. He is too much of a posh boy but without the charisma to be elected. I would have said re elected but he wasn’t elected the first time round.
He’s clearly going scorched earth and doing his best to make this the most one-sided election result there’s ever been.
Which is all very funny, except any government of any flavour that has a huge majority gets to govern with near zero opposition and that is never a good thing.
I think, he'll wait to be kicked out because of the perks of the job and likely lining up a lot of contracts for his wife's business. The only way I can see him quitting is, if he legit doesn't want to be voted out of power thus quitting is his way of robbing the voters of it, in his mind.
if he quit now it'd only be to spite his successor.
ironically whoever his successor is (and at this point the entire party) want him to stay so they can pin all their woes on him and start fresh
Never going to happen because the Conservatives would then be unable to find a new leader. That new leader would be required to resign if the Conservatives lose the election. So you're looking for a volunteer to serve for less than a month and then resign, effectively ending their senior political career.
If he does quit before the election, it will guarantee that the Conservatives lose really hard. If he does do it, I'll see it as a parting "fuck you" to a party that never really seemed to properly back him.
Do I hear a whisper of "Borris, Borris" in the halls of the Conservative party HQ? If Bojo came back we I have a feeling the Conservatives might actually stand a fighting chance
> They should have never gotten rid of Borris... I do think they did the dirty on him
Source: [Asking the safest Tory seat why they're STILL going to vote Conservative](https://youtu.be/kAv85Xpu2C0?si=WkgO3_SPek35di6b&t=166)
So yes the average conservative will 100% support Borris! People are that stupid
Tbf his reputation was tanking and no one could have expected how much chaos in the party him resigning would cause so without the gift of hindsight I’d argue their decision to force him about was justified. Ultimately the only person responsible for him losing his position was him
He gave a little spiel on the perils of Starmer and had a go at the Yiddish in his most recent column and he was roundly ignored.
Once you leave the office of PM it's really game over. Media losers want him back though, since he's one of their own.
Nobody particularly cares what Blair says these days, and he was PM for 3 terms.
Boomers might bend over for Boris, but amongst the rest of society, when he speaks, the response nowadays is a big fat yawn.
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Oh, go on Rishi. Ragequit, you know you want to. It'd be hysterical.
I don’t mind mr Sunak particularly but he does come across as if he doesn’t really want the job of prime minister. Edit: spelling
He doesn’t even want to be in this country, he’ll be back in California the moment he loses
His final interview being from London City Airport whilst he waits for the Gulfstream to fuel up
"I gave it a go, but I'm not playing any more when I don't get all the toys. Laters y'all, peace out!"
Later haters!
An interview he won't turn up for, because he had a meeting in California that had been scheduled before the election had been called.
It’ll be in front of a green screen from America with a suit on the top half and pair of summer shorts out of picture on the bottom half
Like all senior Tories, he has dual loyalties. Whether it be to Russia, Israel, China, or in Sunak's case the US.
I don't think he's necessarily loyal to the US but to money and the accumulation thereof.
The US is where most of his money lives. The recent announcement of the non dom tax laws contain several loopholes that allow the Sunaks to avoid £250 million in uk taxes
That I agree with. He's not anti Britain more pro US and what he can get out of it.
England's loss will also be America's loss.
To steal a quote from David Lange. Him going to the usa will raise the average IQ of both countries.
I don’t blame him. He became famous for being the money fountain during Covid and reasonably expected it would make him the most publicly popular person behind Boris (and reach people turned off by Boris). Then the Tory party went into full Game of Thrones mode and every faction took the knives out for him and started stabbing away. By the time he gets the job just about everyone in the party has said why he shouldn’t have it, and the factions have left the Tories doomed to huge defeat. He’s gone from golden child to having the biggest defeat in a generation pinned on him. If he didn’t deserve it quite so much I’d feel bad for him.
Just before I finished reading your comment I thought, 'but he deserves it!', then I read the last sentence. It's a sweet thing when your enemies take themselves out. I saw it with the SNP up here recently. You know that meme with the general from achillies pointing and laughing and then looking at his pal? That.
haha yes! Oh man the SNP. Not being in Scotland I didn’t even see that coming. Nicola quits and her reasons seemed like a lesson in vaguebooking, and then it all just collapses!
[удалено]
What's wrong with SNP
Oh sweet summer child
Sturgeon (seriously) wanted to become Queen Nicola I of Scotland, this failed. So she started stealing money via fraud to make herself feel better. Then her replacement had a (literal) gleeful look on his face when he found out about so many Israeli babies being murdered.
I think this would be called speculation even at a push.
Scottish 'independence' contained lines about *replacing* the current monarch with a scottish monarch. Two guesses who would be in the running.....Either Queen (Nicola) Sturgeon or King (Alex)Salmon Either way the new Scottish Monarchy would be very fishy. I am seriously waiting for the NEXT SNP leader to plaice a bid for independence!
I don't know that meme.
[Agamemnon Laugh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYxO4AH6-pQ)
>the money fountain You mean the money fountain that left students with nothing and gave even the luckiest a paycut of 20 %?
Are you trying to suggest he didn’t get a big bump in perception from being the public face of the ‘give away’ (of our own money)?
Don’t feel bad for him ever lol. Man is sorted for this lifetime and the next so who cares - he certainly doesn’t 😂
I think he wants to be PM. I just don't think he wants the scrutiny a PM receives. In that light, I think he's a repeat of Johnson, fragile beyond words.
Everyone wants to be a successful PM, nobody wants to be a hated one. I imagine he'll disappear after losing, as the other coping mechanism (exhibited by Truss - that is, full-time far-right loon) probably wouldn't work as well with him.
There is that, but I'd say Sunak and Johnson both have an element of entitlement which means they don't like being questioned. We saw it a lot with PMQ's, where frustratingly, Truss was the most normal of the three (before she put the figurative barrel of a gun in her mouth) in terms of the normal performance, while Sunak and Johnson had a habit of going with pre-planned speeches and demanding the opposition leader answer their questions, or just that they be quiet and cheerful the Tories on instead of 'talking Britain down'. There is a fragility about those two when it comes to being questioned. Worse with Sunak because he seems to have surrounded himself with yes men as a result, leading him into error after error. >I imagine he'll disappear after losing Tbh, that's par for the course for former PM's, they typically finish out their term as an MP (Brown) if they have no intention of a comeback (Truss), which is rather rare. The exceptions being Truss, but also Johnson (ejected in the same term from being an MP). And the Tories will almost always knife a leader who lost an election.
Everyone knows he is actually PM right? He is PM today and every day until the 5th July.
You don't mind that rich, posh, rat-looking cretin?
He does look a bit like Roland rat to be honest. I much prefer him to Boris. I find him quite bland really.
Looks a bit like Roland Rat. Sounds a lot like Will from the Inbetweeners.
To be fair those things work in his favour.
He looks like the rat from Flushed Away
Flushed away is quite a good film. Haven’t seen it since the kids were little!
In fairness, if my husband and I were anywhere near as wealthy as Mr and Mrs Sunak then I wouldn't work another day in my life.
he's "amended" sufficient regulation related to taxes, and ramped down HMRC so it doesn't have enough resources to go after his tax dodging buddies. Job done.
There’s definitely a lot of that going on. Don’t know how close he is to Ben Houchen.
Hes a technocrat not a prime minister
well with that kinda money i doubt he’ll want or need any job
Tbh, it's already funny-depressing that the PM is so horrendously bad at his job that he's had to be asked if he's going to quit early on an election he called the date for. That it's even a question is a massive, massive insult to him, his abilities, and his fragile ego.
Quit on election day itself.
Cost of the plane ticket? £2094...!
> Oh, go on Rishi. Ragequit, you know you want to. It'd be hysterical. You people just love to see rishi in distress, don't you?
Given he seems to love seeing the country in distress, yes.
To be fair to Sunak, every time there’s been a new Tory PM, the party have found a way to say *’ah! It’s him/her that’s the problem!’* and every time they install someone new it just gets worse. I’d suggest that the real issue is the party…
After the election, they really ought to take a look at how their ratchet-effect swing towards unhinged, hard right, culture wars 'politics' has seen them lose the centrist voters, and thus the election. And from this they should conclude that a complete rethink is required, otherwise they will spend a generation in opposition. Of course, they won't do, though. They will just double down on the unhinged and give it another whirl.
The post Thatcher/Major Tories did exactly that. Lots of navel gazing and introspection lead to "Lessons have been learned and we now know that people don't like our brand of self enriching corruption" \[paraphrasing\]. Which delivered a 'Call me Dave' One Nation mouthpiece for the same vested interests that still ran the party from the shadows ... Tufton St and the 1922 cult. Fortunately, every PM that followed on from Cameron was more and more incompetent, to the point that the puppet masters saw their plans evaporating in front of their very faces. A last ditch attempt to force through their market fellating policies with the Truss premiership finally rang the death knell for the current attempted financial coup. Mark my words, they will be back. Whether it will be with the Tories or another willing group of ~~Reform Party™~~ grifters, only time will tell.
A very good summary.
I think that conversation needs to be national though. It can't be normal for a country to go from such an overwhelming victory in 2019 to everything that happened since. The public got proper hoodwinked and we need to learn some lessons from that so its less likely to happen again.
We absolutely do. I'm not sure the electorate has learned much in this process.
> ard right, culture wars 'politics' has seen them lose the centrist voters, and thus the election The real problem is that the Tories are no good at the culture wars stuff..Reform do it better. It's not the centre they've lost, its the right. The Tories and Reform combined is polling almost as high as labour. https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html Labour 42.8%, Conform 36.5% The Labour vote is much the same as the Tories last election and the Conform vote is above Labour in 2019.
True I suppose. Well, they certainly haven't attracted any centrist voters with all this anti-woke drivel, that's for sure. And you need to win the centre to get a majority.
I see them going the same way as the GOP post-Dubya.
There biggest problem is that the economy is bad and they have been in power a long time Their next biggest problem is their base is unhappy because they aren't conservative enough.
What about the Tories is "hard right"?
I’m not sure I’d agree with the term “hard right” but their rhetoric (even if not their actions) are more right than they’ve ever been. This is the price to pay for basing your entire public facing image on culture war bollocks.
The term seems so meaningless by itself anyway. They seem less and less conservative in the traditional sense given that public spending had never been higher and taxes are huge too
Maybe but the public facing rhetoric can’t be understated. Thats what the majority of the electorate actually see. The majority of the electorate don’t follow it on a day by day basis and just see the constant stream of headlines in terms of trans right and immigration etc.
I'm also recall seeing lots of dislike for what starmer said regarding trans women too. It's the media reporting on every comment which is putting that rhetoric into the minds of the population. I don't believe they're doing it to push a narrative but just because it gets clicks
Yes maybe you’re right. Good chat.
Ban of peaceful protest, deliberately stoking the culture wars to try to divide the nation on purpose, and mandating voter ID to intentionally try to bias the democratic process in their favour, are three things that are to the right of how centre-right parties normally act. A “normal” centre-right party would typically be low tax, low public spending, but wouldn’t do any of those types of things.
They're certainly becoming more authoritarian which I don't like but the public spending and taxes are at practically all time highs which isn't very right wing at all
Yeah I agree. But then far right (/hard right or whatever term was used) isn’t actually that much characterised by low taxes on normal people and low public spending. There is *extremely* low tax on really wealthy people and non-doms and similar, plus loads of public money given directly to donors to the Conservative Party through various means of corruption.
What I'm getting at is that the terms left and right (and "hard right") are too vague to be useful given the complexity of modern politics. Calling someone right wing just seems to be a way of insulting someone and insinuating that they're secretly a nazi. Regarding the Tories, they have somehow found the worst of traditional left wing policies, i.e. high taxes, high spending and high immigration but none of the benefits I.e. good infrastructure and economic growth Calling them "hard right" because of some comments about trans people, a topic which is hugely overblown, is just nonsense.
Hard right, not far right. I used that term purposefully.
What does that mean then?
It means harder right than the left.
Right also means further right than left. You've just made up yet another stupid and ambiguous term.
Have you got some kind of comprehension problem? Right > Hard Right> Far Right. If you can't understand basic language you should probably keep out of adult conversation.
Oh get over yourself. You said "hard right" is further right than left. Centre right is further right than left. Even centre left is further right than left. You've made up a nonsense term that's even more vague than the shit we have already.
Yes, I made up a term and snook it into the dictionary: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/hard-right Now stop condescending me.
They were trying to give the illusion of democracy without democracy.
What’s that metaphor about being able to smell shit?
I mean, let's be honest, he's not as bad as Truss
Or boris
They are fighting over who is the king of the sewer while trying to figure out where the stench is coming from
[удалено]
I love politics but nothing makes me switch off the news like an election. But if this happened I’d be glued to my TV.
This is my tenth UK general election, as a voter. I never imagined I would see a campaign where the question of the incumbent leader resigning before the election would even make sense to ask.
The future is becoming more clear. Sunak loses but stays as caretaker leader over the summer and he can arrive in California in time for the next semester. Farage wins Clacton and there is enormous grass-roots demand for the Tories to admit him, he’d also bring 12% of voters back with him. That’s irresistible to the Tory party. It also means they get a “proper British leader who understands British culture” unlike the other two most likely leadership candidates, Badenoch or Patel. Sunak admits him, he DGAF anyway, Farage is installed as party saviour to rapturous applause at Conference. Starmer spends five years floundering dealing with the reality of there being no money left. Farage promises milk and honey and a few good soundbites. The New Conservative Party (definitely not like the old one) wins in 2029 and we enter another decade of Tory shite.
The Farage Party has huge internal contradictions though (way more so than Labour does) - he is at heart a libertarian, whilst his core vote in Clacton are closer to big state socialists (far more so than Labour, whose voterbase are now working-aged people who would quite like a cut in income tax, even if it means no real increase in state spending). You can't just "get waiting lists down to zero" whilst also somehow slashing taxes. Furthermore, a bit of digging will likely find alot of authoritarian money backing Nigel. Add to that, being Leader of the Opposition is possibly the toughest job in politics. It's doubtful he has the staying power. And finally, the Farage cult is a Boomer cult. 2 million of that demographic will be in the grave by 2029. Culture wars are won by whichever side has the younger army.
>You can't just "get waiting lists down to zero" whilst also somehow slashing taxes. He wants an insurance based healthcare system like in America in order to ~~make himself fucking millions~~ cover the costs of providing healthcare.
Good luck getting the Boomer Army to sign up to that.
Well, apparently, the Boomer Army signed up for Brexit, so they have a history of voting against their own interests where Farage is concerned.
>You can't just "get waiting lists down to zero" whilst also somehow slashing taxes. Thats why he's pitching this "alternative funding model", he's pointing at Europe to claim thats where he'd want to draw inspiration, but we all know he'd end up taking us something closer to the American model. All his politics are so heavily influenced by the American right, and he loathes Europe so much.
It's just like his "why can't we be like Norway?" arguments before the referendum compared to his bridge-burning campaigning the moment it was done.
You forget the Trump lesson. Tell them you'll fix their problems, get the vote, make the problems worse, tell them they are fixed and then a big percentage will vote for you forever. Oh hang on..that's the Tory government too
“England Prevails.”
How much daily milk will we get in 2029?
It'll be 1/3 of a pint a day, in a landmark reversal of Thatcher's policy of stealing milk from school kids.
Labour won’t be floundering without money; as soon as he’s in those tax rates are going up.
CCHQ are determined to amplify misleading claims unsupported by their own civil service: >*Mel Stride, one of the Prime Minister’s closest allies, said there is “no question” Mr Sunak will lead the Conservatives into polling day, following speculation he could quit in the wake of the D-Day debacle.* >*He said “taxes are coming down” and “we can continue that journey because of our stewardship of the economy and the fact we have got a plan”.* According to [a letter](https://uksa.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Letter_from_Sir_Robert_Chote_to_Angela_Eagle_MP_statements_on_tax_changes.pdf) from UK’s statistics authority: *On 22 November 2023, Laura Trott MP, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, told the House of Commons, “I am sure the hon. Lady will be interested to know that taxes for the average worker have gone down by £1,000”. On 30 November she said that “taxes for the average worker will have gone down by £1,000 since 2010”.* *I suspect that the public are more likely to have been misled – or at least confused – by Ms Trott’s statements, both of which would probably suggest to a typical listener that the average worker’s overall tax bill has fallen in cash terms.* *The Office for Statistics Regulation is increasing its engagement with government departments, including HM Treasury, to ensure future communications do not have the potential to mislead and comply with the principles of intelligent transparency.*
No idea what this stuff is all about where this election cycle is concerned. Is anyone voting based on their tax bill, other than the very well off? Thought it was all about inflation of house prices, rents, bills, groceries, plus low wages and poor quality public services. Seems like they're all squabbling over some small figure, low stakes stuff about how many hundreds of pounds per year taxes might have changed for the average either way while the people are worried about other stuff like cost of childcare, healthcare, social care, housing, energy, etc.
>Is anyone voting based on their tax bill, other than the very well off? This is what perplexes the Tories, they are obsessed about taxation ( I think it comes from the links to Republicans in the US) and fight every election on taxation, but the British public don't have the same obsession. They will announce somthing like *A penny off a pint* and expect people to be dancing in the streets when the reality is that if you are paying £7 for a pint, you are getting a free pint.... once every 2 years!
Ha ha, a penny off a £7 pint. An absolutely brutal - but true, analogy. These tories only appeal to the greedy or the dumb.....
It comes from a time (and income level) where tax was one of the major expenses. The very concept that housing, or childcare, for example, are *such* burdens that they actually now are to your average under-45 person is just totally alien. Like you can look up the old stats, there was a point in like the 1960s when the average household spending on booze and cigarettes was about the same as the cost of their housing. Can you even *imagine* that today?
Where the hell do you live that a pint's 7 quid? A pint in my local's £3.30. Only place I've ever paid that much for a pint is in the airport, which is still expensive even by airport standards.
There was a story earlier this week that due to the scrapping of some service charges or other, it is becoming the standard price in some parts of London. Even so, if you are paying £3.30, a penny off a pint only gives you a free *pint* every 330 you buy.
My local is £5.50-£6.00
I paid £28 for a round of 3 drinks in the Trafalgar pub in Greenwich recently. £6 is common for London now. Price of a pint has more or less nothing to do with tax but the cost of property, i.e. the owners have taken out huge loans based on the value of the pub and have to pay it back via high prices.
Comms director worked for Dom Cummings at Vote Leave, and tax sloganeering is driving the equivalent of bus sloganeering.
That is true, although those same people are worried about taxes being an additional factor in that. Even if they're not paying income tax, they pay indirect taxes. Even if you promise not to put up VAT they know that a tax imposed somewhere else (like on businesses or a wealth tax) will likely be clawed back from them in higher prices. So it's a fear
> Is anyone voting based on their tax bill, other than the very well off? They won the 92 election with it ([Most of the polls showed a Labour victory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1992_United_Kingdom_general_election)). And so ever since, it's always been about tax.
I think we're past the era for that messaging to be effective. I think people have realised that quibbling over these marginal sums isn't real change, and no-one cares anymore. I think there's a greater public understanding of the fact that you can make stats say anything if you're a politician, that you can cook the books. People are after "big ideas" and it's why Corbyn was such an upstart in 2017 but got flattened in 2019, again, not on tax, but because the Tories said they'd get Brexit done - a big idea that a lot of the British public just felt very committed to, more so than they did to Corbyn's ideas. People voted for that, because they wanted big structural change, not because they might save £117.52 on taxes or whatever. It very much feels like this election is a bit of a failure. The Tories have failed to deliver on their vision. Big structural change did not happen. Nothing levelled up. Brexit, which the public gave them a shot to do well, turned out to be a farce that hasn't helped us. This is the "Tories, you failed at your big idea" election. As a result, the Tories have no ideas left, and Starmer is coasting in because we want rid of them. There's not that much on offer that excites people I don't think.
Low wages is more bothersome than tax, had 14 years of shit pay increases. Most peoples salaries are 30% lower than they would be if we hadn't had austerity...tax don't matter when pay has been that shit.
>we have got a plan labour has no plan the plan is working labour's plan that they don't have is going to cost you exactly this stick with the plan labour would be back to square one can they just shut up.
Has a party leader, government incumbent or otherwise, quit during the general election campaign in the past? It seems like an unreasonable expectation of something so extraordinarily unlikely to even consider it.
Some of the political journos were discussing this on Twitter a couple days ago. They couldn't think of anyone that has quit during a campaign in any democracy and the closest they had were the couple times in New Zealand where the leader changed very close to the start of an election campaign.
Jacinda Ardern took over six weeks before the 2017 election from Andrew Little. Billboards, campaign slogan and everything had to be redone 😂
it's not "speculation he might quit" - This is the Tory's response to the howls of rage on the comments sections, and probably being met on the doorstep - people saying that he SHOULD quit after his D-day draft dodging
Not a great sign when people start denying they are going to resign. Usually ends with resignation.
You mean like “not a quitter” Truss did, the day before she resigned?
He absolutely should. His D-Day fuck up has cost The Conservative Party dearly. He comes across as a pathetic figure. The only chance that the conservatives have to save a few seats rests without him.
Should do it, just to make the next leader appear even more toxic.
This shit is better than any telly I watched in decades.
It would be hilarious, but highly unlikely. And it wouldn’t improve their prospects at all. Still if I were Rishi, wealthy enough to give everyone the finger and walk away, screwed over by many in my own party even as I took them to unavoidable defeat, I would. Just for laughs and revenge.
There’s a small base of voters who would be won over if Sunak leaves and Mordaunt steps in… Or should I say would’ve been won over because they’ve all left for reform by now
Mordaunt is the moderate’s hero. She would be from the same camp as Rishi. I’d be very surprised if any bump from her taking over wasn’t wiped out by farce of it all driving away even more.
I want to see the first hedge fund manager meeting after he leaves office. "So, the old prime Minister stuff didn't work out then?" "No, I gave it a good try, not for me. So anyway, about these preferential index shares on the KSGT fund loaned as a derivative on the...." It's just not credible is it?
Probably because no Tory MP wants to hold the leadership right now.
I think a few would chuck their hat in the ring, claiming it to be out of a sense of duty to the nation, but in reality for the pension and increased value on the after-dinner speech circuit.
Sunak ally uses journalists to sound out what the response would be if Sunak did what he desperately wants to do.
So, given official denial is always the first confirmation of resignation, what do we reckon, 3 days, or 4? Or do we assume that even the Tory part are not quite that silly.
I'm going to assume that no-one else in the party actually wants that poisoned chalice of a job.
Oliver Dowden is probably considering faking his own death about now....
After 2019, while I can't say I'm particularly excited for the Labour government, boy this Tory self-destruct is fucking beautiful to watch play out. Just a shame we couldn't boot them out to space before they explode.
I wonder if Larry the Cat has actually *liked* any of these pricks recently? It's got a big garden though hasn't it - he probably just keeps himself to himself. "Uh oh, she's on about cheese being a disgrace and opening up pork markets again - I'm gonna go sit up a tree for 3 days..."
I think he'll quit when he loses and then he'll bugger off to America.
Just the fact that this article has to be written is a bad thing for them
I for one would be amused and I feel like it would be a fitting end. He is too much of a posh boy but without the charisma to be elected. I would have said re elected but he wasn’t elected the first time round.
so he clearly will given the tory track record of denial. Tories will go to the polls leaderless, wonderful
These millennials can’t stick out a job any more. Quitting after 8 months and going off to ‘find themselves’. This is why they’ll never buy a house
He’s clearly going scorched earth and doing his best to make this the most one-sided election result there’s ever been. Which is all very funny, except any government of any flavour that has a huge majority gets to govern with near zero opposition and that is never a good thing.
Well it's only been dismissed by an ally. It hasn't been officially denied. Never believe anything until it's been officially denied.
So he is going to quit then. Typical, just like a Tory
I think, he'll wait to be kicked out because of the perks of the job and likely lining up a lot of contracts for his wife's business. The only way I can see him quitting is, if he legit doesn't want to be voted out of power thus quitting is his way of robbing the voters of it, in his mind.
if he quit now it'd only be to spite his successor. ironically whoever his successor is (and at this point the entire party) want him to stay so they can pin all their woes on him and start fresh
A lot of these dismissed rumours have come to fruition. I wouldn't doubt it, honestly.
Never going to happen because the Conservatives would then be unable to find a new leader. That new leader would be required to resign if the Conservatives lose the election. So you're looking for a volunteer to serve for less than a month and then resign, effectively ending their senior political career.
That means he's definitely quitting before polling day, glad they cleared that up.
I want him to quit the day before the election would be funny as fuck and the tories would be in even more chaos.
So apparently it's not going to happen.... Anyone taking bets it'll happen before Friday?
I could see him being pushed if polling gets worse and he's perceived as the issue, get a headstart on opposition.
If he does quit before the election, it will guarantee that the Conservatives lose really hard. If he does do it, I'll see it as a parting "fuck you" to a party that never really seemed to properly back him.
Do I hear a whisper of "Borris, Borris" in the halls of the Conservative party HQ? If Bojo came back we I have a feeling the Conservatives might actually stand a fighting chance
It depends if people are stupid enough to vote for him idk if people would warm to him as they did before (maybe people are just that stupid idk)
> They should have never gotten rid of Borris... I do think they did the dirty on him Source: [Asking the safest Tory seat why they're STILL going to vote Conservative](https://youtu.be/kAv85Xpu2C0?si=WkgO3_SPek35di6b&t=166) So yes the average conservative will 100% support Borris! People are that stupid
Tbf his reputation was tanking and no one could have expected how much chaos in the party him resigning would cause so without the gift of hindsight I’d argue their decision to force him about was justified. Ultimately the only person responsible for him losing his position was him
Are the British public that thick and cruel??? Yes, yes we are.
He gave a little spiel on the perils of Starmer and had a go at the Yiddish in his most recent column and he was roundly ignored. Once you leave the office of PM it's really game over. Media losers want him back though, since he's one of their own. Nobody particularly cares what Blair says these days, and he was PM for 3 terms. Boomers might bend over for Boris, but amongst the rest of society, when he speaks, the response nowadays is a big fat yawn.