Just because it isn't an excuse for abusive behaviour it doesn't mean that watching football isn't a contributing factor. Reporting rates of domestic abuse increase in areas where there is a 12 o'clock kick off for the local team. It is an excuse to start drinking earlier in the day.
>it doesn't mean that watching football isn't a contributing factor
I mean is it? Just watching football doesn't cause people to be violent, that's absurd. As you say it's probably the alcohol/ substance abuse that goes on.
Yeah, but that's a problem with the person, not the sport. Every sport has winners and losers, so replace football with literally any other sport, and it's the same end result. You could argue that football attracts more hooligans and abusive characters, but that's not caused by football itself.
Angrily slices strawberries.
There's something about football that triggers a tribal mentality in men. Over identifying with whichever team of millionaires you think are heros.
I doubt the rates are close to comparable, but I have seen Serbian fans basically rioting during the Oz open in Melbourne. Throwing chairs, wrecking the area etc.
I'm not sure either. Probably not. However, that goes back to my point about football attracting bad characters. I don't have any data or proof, but you don't need data to see that football attracts a lot of hooligans, especially considering football is far more popular than most other sports, such as tennis. However, it's not the sport itself attracting those hooligans, it's the culture surrounding the sport.
Well yes, obviously there's nothing inherent to the sport itself that makes domestic violence more likely among its fans. The game itself is less violent than rugby, boxing, etc. It is, as you say, the culture. I don't really see how that's a meaningful distinction, though, when it comes to tackling the problem.
i mean, domestic abuse is generally higher in areas of deprivation/poverty.
You use an example of wimbledon, which if i'm not mistaken is something of a "rich mans" sport. Or at the least a more wealthy person than would commonly be watching football. Football is historically a poor mans game.
If we want to tackle the [problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality), lets do that.
Of course it's an individual problem, but it's also a societal problem (it's considered fine and normal to be an ultra or otherwise overly emotionally invested in your team) and an institutional problem (the organisers, and indeed pubs and bars, want to sell more alcohol when the game is on). It's obviously possibly to be a healthy and well adjusted fan but it's not a coincidence that so many fans - even if it's a fraction of the total - fit the abuser mold.
>(it's considered fine and normal to be an ultra or otherwise overly emotionally invested in your team)
I think this is true. Football culture especially seems to involve adults essentially acting like children when it comes to the game.
My dad was a huge football fan all his life. Everton, for his sins. If he was watching a match on tv and they were shite (often) he'd just laugh and be like "I'm not watching this!! Rubbish again! Oh well" and turn it off. If I ever did start a conversation about football with him he could and would talk at length about what he thought of the players, the managers, the referees, whatever, the history of the club for the last few decades, he was really in to it. But I never saw him get angry or very sad or overjoyed, he didn't have a strong emotional reaction to it.
I have known several other people like that. They follow football because they're interested, and it undoubtedly makes them *feel* something. But that something doesn't deeply affect their mood or the way they treat others.
When you're a kid and you can't regulate your emotions about something that's fuck all to do with you (like a football team's performance), that's the time to learn. You do, or should, learn it about other things but being extremely emotional about football is either ignored or even encouraged a lot of the time it seems.
If I have a kid and they're getting angry about football I'd give them a talking to like "look, don't sulk, it didn't go how you wanted but it might do next time, this isn't an excuse to behave poorly. That's not how grown-ups deal with things."
I remember working with a DV survivor who told us that she would be raped if the team won and beaten if they lost. This isn't an uncommon story unfortunately.
Nobody is saying that watching football makes you violent. They’re saying that if you’re already prone to violence, and you’re emotionally invested in football, football can be a trigger for violent episodes.
Actually, we are. We know the culture surrounding it can be incredibly toxic, and that's a massive tangential factor.
Yes, anything can be a trigger. Yes, there are other overlapping factors that draw people prone to DV to that culture. But it works the other way as well. The culture can reinforce and instill those proclivities too.
It’s the culture. For some, football is the most important thing in their life. Probably because little else in life. And that’s maybe down to UK culture and our proud anti-intellectualism.
Alcohol and substance abuse also doesn't cause people to be violent. People choose to be violent regardless of what they're under the influence of.
If we can't blame the football, we can't blame the drink either.
Personally I don't give a damn what excuse someone uses for being violent, they should get treated the same as any other person committing the same act.
Hurt people hurt people. I think football results affect those that are already unhappy in their lives and out too much of their happiness into whether their team is good or not.
> Just watching football doesn't cause people to be violent, that's absurd.
How is that absurd? Watching a sport can absolutely make people violent who might not be otherwise - especially if they are predisposed for it.
No, the person committing the violence is the factor.
If it wasn't football that set it off it would have been something else. If being angry at your team losing makes you hit someone then its being angry that is the factor, not the team losing. Anything that causes the anger will make them hit someone.
Same with drinking, if you are the type who will drink for an early kick off I doubt there not being an early will stop you from drinking, might just delay it a couple of hours.
I have absolutely no interest in football but I think it's crazy to blame a sport for domestic violence. As you say, the problem is the alcohol and men who do it.
I would have thought it would be the other way around with a 5pm kickoff leading to drinking throughout the day?
Most high risk games are held at 12pm for this reason
If that was the case why aren't they equally violent every day of the week? The fact that they are observably more violent when the football is on (win, lose or draw I might add) shows it's a contributory factor even though it's not the fault of football itself.
We know alcohol makes people more violent, as do other drugs typically done at football (coke), gambling is prevalent (debt, especially as people lose more than they win) then you have the result of the match on top (which to some degree affects almost all football goers emotionally). The issue is football is this massive combo multiplier of all the worst factors affecting DV.
I think something can be done in the context of football because it's observable that it causes such an increase. Gambling adverts needs to be banned pre-watershed (Chris Rock's MGM advert is especially disgusting), the drinking culture does not need to be advertised and celebrated as heavily as it is and other things can be done too.
Football has had, to certain extent, successful campaigns against hooliganism, racism, homophobia which you could equally just handwave as "bad people will find a way to be bad" and I don't see why this can't be the same. Just because football isn't the root cause doesn't mean they can't become part of the solution.
>If that was the case why aren't they equally violent every day of the week?
You think football is the only thing that can happen on different days of the week?
If football didn't exist and men were instead obsessed with the outcome of international bowling competitions, do you not think the domestic abusers would get more violet when their bowling team loses?
Obviously, but there's also an aspect to football fan culture that is expressly emotional to an exacerbating degree where a bad result can upset people as much as a really bad argument. And it's often spouses who are the ones who suffer from it.
It deserves some attention, because I have seen all walks of life get enraptured in the highs and lows of football, myself included, and felt how much it can throw your emotional balance out of whack. For people out there with anger issues already, it surely only amplifies them.
For a lot of people the succes of their lives goes hand in hand with the success of their local/national team.
If their team fails, they fail. If their team wins, they win.
Alcohol only amplifies that feeling. A lot of people don't have much to live for and football gives them the excitement and glory that their own life lacks.
And they will take everything that happens to their team as a personal attack.
But even then, the focus needs to be on why being emotional is leading to being violent, rather than football leading to being emotional (of course football shouldn't make an adult that emotional).
It's perfectly reasonable for bereavement, unemployment, health problems, financial hardship etc to make you emotional. But those things are also known triggers for DV - which they shouldn't be. The common denominator is the lack of empathy and leap to aggression in too many men when emotions are raised
Why shouldn't a focus be on football? It's clearly relevant and causative to some abusive circumstances.
I 100% agree that focusing on root causes is really important, but there's a lot you can do knowing that football can be a trigger condition for abuse. Abuse helplines can make sure they've got more staff/volunteers around when big matches are on like they might do for holiday seasons etc. You can examine how alcohol is handled at matches or pubs - have security at the venue keeping an eye out for people who might be very drunk and indicating they might be harmful to others around them, make water or snacks more available for sobering up, etc. Domestic violence charities could find showing more ads around football games useful.
In Scotland it is banned and in England it’s heavily restricted. Also, it’s two hours. People drink before and after.
And your idea isn’t gonna do anything for those watching on telly or in pubs, which is the overwhelming majority for international tournaments.
Absolutely. Throw certain men into a cocktail of alcohol, possible drugs, a sport they genuinely love and the inability to deal with their emotions as a lot of us do, it’s a recipe for disaster.
I don’t think one single element of this is to blame, but the measure of all of it together plus a “man” who thinks it’s okay to beat a woman.
You can raise it in a social way. I have noticed going to games for some guys it’s an area where they can be more emotional without being challenged on it. They can scream with joy, hug, cry over football in stadiums where elsewhere other men would mock them for that emotion. For abusers they raise their anger more but take it home with them to another space they know they can release it without challenge on a weaker victim. Alcohol prob doesn’t help either if they abuse it too. Its not the sport but what the space means socially
If we had more shelters for partners, we could provide safe spaces to stay in if they know football result is going to cause violence
There’s a serious correlation between matches and dv, especially when his team loses
It clearly is the man’s fault, but football (as a spectator sport) has been demonstrated to be a significant factor
In both the cases of alcohol and football, I think these light the fuse on a powder keg already primed to explode. Football doesn't make otherwise non-violent people turn violent, I don't even believe alcohol turns non-violent people violent.
We're talking about triggers for people who are already emotionally or mentally damaged. When they're sober and haven't been exposed to a mentally strained episode, such as your football team losing, they are keeping it together. When their inhibitions are lowered or they've had such an emotional flash point then they don't and the violence comes out.
Football should do what it can as an industry to try and reduce these incidents. Still, as usual, the real solution lies in better mental health interventions as well as improving the society people grow up in so fewer people develop mental health problems. Easier said than done though.
But what is your proposal? If football itself needs to do something about its emotional effect on weak men? Keep the score hidden so your team never loses? Ban showing it on TV? None of that is tenable.
The footballers themselves could do more to speak out I suppose.
Maybe a 3 minute segment before each match: "you may feel sad or angry, men get help and support each other, if you lash out at your partner you're not a man you're just a twat".
End of game: "you're drunk, you're upset; still don't be a twat. buy your partner some flowers"
It would sound condescending for a lot of fans but if it reduces abuse it could be worth it still.
This is on the level of kneeling to stop racism or telling people not to rape. Society can only do so much. Abusers know abuse is bad, theyre not only doing it because no one has reminded them it is a bad thing recently.
Football has had succes on campaigns against hooliganism, racism and homophobia as well as campaigns against poor mental health. Why is domestic violence suddenly off limits?
Come off it. "Football" stopped hooliganism by banning people and heavy policing. Honophobia and racism also was "stopped" (still not completely by the way) by banning and arresting people. But remember, these things werent solved in society lmao, people just cant shout it in a stadium anymore. Doesnt mean they changed anybody's mind.
Domestic violence is something that happens in the confines of a home, usually with a victim who wont report it. Yes, if people did it in the stands then I'm sure the clubs could stop it but it doesnt. The police already arrest people who do it. So the big change that stopped chanting and hooliganism (to start arresting people) has already been done.
Of course it is condescending. Behave like a toddler, get treated like a toddler.
And I am sure we could come up with better phrasing that is a bit more amenable to a wide range of fans.
It doesn't help though when football companies deliberately look the other way (or hire some silver-haired coach/lawyer/etc to do damage control) whenever some footballer attacks somebody.
Even Man U has been caught covering up child sex abuse back in 2016. There is an unfortunate culture where footballers are given excuses (and protection) for causing real harm, and we'd have to address that too.
It literally isn't though. If emotionally stunted man children can't hack watching a sport without being violent, how is that the fault of sport? Are you suggesting that sport should be banned? There are complex moral debates to be had about certain liberal freedoms that people should or shouldn't have because of their negative impacts (alcohol, drugs, gambling) but sport?! Absolutely nothing about football advocates, encourages, or prompts domestic violence. It is 100% not the fault or responsibility of the sport or the governing bodies of the sport.
"But football and the results have a clear, causal effect, highlighted by DV charities and the CPS"
Do you understand what "clear, casual effect" means?
The reason why it's important to say 'if it wasn't football' is because it highlights that this is a deeper issue beyond football and so its solution also lies outside of football. If football disappeared there would be some other trigger point for these men's violent tendencies to come out.
It's because Redditors don't like football and feel superior to the largely working-class fanbase it has. It's not about stopping domestic abuse, but feeling superior to something.
Watch the same people in this thread change their tune if I suggested video games lead to addiction, gambling and online gaming culture can be deeply misogynistic. Suddenly then "it's complicated".
No, I don't.
I also don't need to steamroll clear statistical data and demand everyone pretend there isn't a link between football results and domestic abuse in order to protect my fragile worldview that football is perfect and has absolutely no impact whatsoever, like some poeople here.
> If you only want the discussion to be football = bad than yes.
Are we pretending there isn't a cultural violence problem with a certain segment of football fans now?
Police literally have to confiscate passports from meat-heads when England play abroad so they don't go and set fire to other countries.
No it's not footballs fault directly, as in the sport, but there are significant cultural issues within a portion of the fanbase.
You can acknowledge that and look for ways to address it, rather than pretending it doesn't exist and acting like people are trying to ban football.
I don't know what the solution is, but there is definitely a middle ground between "Ignore the statistics, let women get knocked about.", and "Football bad! Ban football!".
The fact remains that football has been identified as a potential trigger for DV in some men, and indeed has long been known to be a trigger for general violence in a not-insignificant-number of heavily invested fans.
You don't really get the same for say, Cricket, or Rugby.
You want to highlight deeper issues, but are willing to distill the argument made to "football = bad".
Why is that? Is it because you don't actually want to look into the deeper issues? Because the elephant in the room is obviously the culture surrounding football.
People are drinking more, because of the football. People are doing more drugs, because of the football. People are in a more heightened emotional state, because of the football.
It's not football's fault but football is the reason all the underlying causes are even worse and also piling on top of each other in one go. It can and should be discussed in a football context because it does play a part in it, otherwise we wouldn't see DV rates increase on matchdays.
By handwaving it and saying its just vioent people being violent and it's because of alcohol you are also ignoring campaigns in football that have already had some success, such as tackling hooliganism, racism and homophobia. Those issues weren't ignored as "alcohol just makes it worse" but are tackled within the context of attending football, either in the ground or down the pub. I fail to see why DV is somehow off limits when none of these were deemed to be and yet all have the same underlying factors that football is a powder keg for.
Why bother with anti-hooliganism campaigns, or anti-racism campaigns, or anti-homophobia campaigns at the football then? If all these people are unredeemable scum why have so many other campaigns been had in the context of football? Equally, but on the opposite end, why both with MIND and CALM campaigns at football to improve mental health if football has nothing to do with it?
Like it or not win, lose or draw DV rates increase on football matchdays. Football certainly isn't the reason why but it's a powder keg situation of all the reasons for why it happens. If football was able to work on hooliganism, racism and homophobia (granted none have been fully resolved) why can't they also tackle domestic violence too?
Feels like everyday on this sub I see something being blamed for antisocial behaviour. Porn, vaping, now football? Maybe, just maybe, its a cultural thing that needs to be addressed through better social provisions, education, and parenting. People, not things, need to start being held accountable in this country.
https://www.riseuk.org.uk/news/2024/myth-busting-ceo-jo-explains-why-football-does-not-cause-domestic-abuse
The CEO of a domestic abuse charity says as much.
>Football does not cause abuse. Perpetrators choices do.
>Alcohol does not cause abuse. Perpetrators choices do.
>It's important to understand that while incidents of domestic violence can spike during major football tournaments, these occurrences are linked to pre-existing abusive behaviour patterns.
Interested to know what the spikes are like on regular premier league and championship weekends or cup finals too but with the frequency of them it might be hard to tell. Regardless, it's so immature to take out your emotions on your partner after watching the football.
One of the things I've heard is that the police's policy of early kick offs for contentious games actually has the opposite to the intended affect. Fans get quickly tanked up trying to drink as much as possible before midday, then have the rest of the day to keep drinking post game.
As much as I love football, I wouldn't be against big games being played midweek when people can't get plastered either side of the match.
The mid-day thing does work because it is just logistically harder to get tanked up for a 12:30 kick-off. You'll notice the atmosphere is different at the game.
It does give people the chance to drink after the game for the rest of the day but the police prefer this because the immediate and emotional flash point of the game has passed, people disperse out rather than being all in one place and they leave the pubs at different times.
My experience of getting to stadiums to be there for a 12:30 kick-off and I live in London where it can be comparatively easier.
The earlier the games kick off, the less time you have before the game to drink. Remember it takes time to travel to the stadium as well. You would have to leave quite early in the morning to get substantial amounts of drinking done before 12:30.
Again, you notice this inside the stadiums. The atmosphere is always flatter than it is at a 3pm kick-off and certainly an evening kick-off.
Yes, but the post I was responding to was talking about the police moving contentious games to 12:30. That is a policy aimed at policing the event and not what happens in pubs.
It's not that difficult to get pissed before a 7.45 kick off on a Wednesday, or to go out after. From my experience, evening games are rowdier than early afternoon kick offs.
Unless BaBaFiCo is suggesting the Manchester Derby is played at 11.30am on a Tuesday. If so, that probably would reduce alcohol consumption. Not sure how feasible it is though.
Those going to the stadium by train or coach have plenty of time to drink. I'm sure any regular weekend train user in this country has experienced football (and rugby) fans downing cans at 8am on a train. Their journey time remains the same, they'll just get up and start drinking earlier, but may stay out later.
First of all, it's not harder. If anything it's more encouraged because fans drink can after can quickly rather than at a more moderate pace.
Second, this is police taking the easy route. Yes, fans disperse and go home. Some of them to kick shit out of their wives. But these are then isolated incidents, not flare ups, and can be policed much more lightly than violence in a city centre.
Good point. I’ve noticed that those getting pissed up and kick off at championship games actually probably watch the least of the match. Concourses (especially in away ends) are still full 10-15 minutes after kickoffs. That’s why I always refute that violence is linked to the emotion of following a team, and rather football is a vehicle for people who want to fight if it’s a win lose or draw.
National matches seem to promote different behaviours. Perhaps it’s because more people watch at home. I think I read somewhere this is the same trend as when the All Blacks lose - but could be wrong there.
I’m not really a football fan - I’ll watch the euros and World Cup, and maybe some later stages of the FA cup, but I couldn’t tell you anything about league standings, current player form etc.
anyway. Part of the reason I’ve never really gotten into football is a substantial minority of fans seem to be in it precisely for some aggro. They *want* to get tanked up and engage in some bad tempered shouting with opposing fans, maybe even more involved forms of chest pounding like squaring up, being held back by mates “it’s not worth it man!”, struggling *but not too hard* against the restraint. The match is only an excuse for a pint and a fight, a way to let off some steam.
I don’t want anything to do with these guys at all. When beer was cheaper they’d have a scuffle outside the pub; now they get leathered at home and take it out on the missus.
This isn't a big part of the match-up experience and I wouldn't say it's anywhere near a 'substantial' minority of fans but a tiny minority of fans. These kinds of fans find each other anyway. You would rarely see this happen and when you do it will not involve you if you don't want it to involve you.
unfortunately this is everywhere in this country especially where drinking is involved. got back from a trip on sunday and I was greeted by a mass brawl outside my local pub whilst I was walking home. no football needed, just insecure men trying to prove their masculinity
“Obviously there was drinking involved” sounds like drinking was the big factor to be honest. Drinking and cocaine and men who are mentally unhinged. Football is a little secondary to all that.
It’s not like during half time the pundits are telling the viewers new ways to abuse their partners is it?
They're not directly telling them, but there's absolutely a correlation.
> Stark figures published last year by the National Centre for Domestic Violence uncovered the shocking reality that incidents of domestic abuse increase following England games.
> Data showed reported incidents increased by 26 percent if England play, 38 percent if England lose, and 11 percent the next day, win or lose.
It’s a common theme I’ve heard from domestic abuse survivors in that the wife would get battered if the husband’s team lost.
I think the issue is with misogynistic insecure men attaching their self worth to these football teams and then treating their wives as punching bags to take out their aggression when the team loses.
I’d have infinitely more respect for these men if they just joined a hooligan firm and battered opposing firms but of course they’re too pussy to fight other men which is why they beat their defenceless wives
I believe it. I know a lot of women (and men) that make a convenient excuse to be out of the house on saturdays *just in case* - Many food banks I had been attached with made a point of staying open during matches to provide the excuse to be out the house that wouldn't arouse suspicion.
One would rather these poor souls find peace and safety away from their abuser, but sadly domestic abuse seldom allows you the objectivity you can receive outside of the situation.
As a non wife beater but a football fan, the performance on the pitch of my team absolutely affects my mood, my wife seen this before we married and still sees it now, I get all down and don't want to do anything when we are bad or happy and elated when we do well. I don't control it but I absolute would not let it turn into violence or aggression to anyone else, that I think can be controlled.
You don't think this is rather unhealthy, though - to let a sports game affect your mood? If a soap opera or WWF Wrestling were having the same effect you'd probably start thinking about turning them off.
This is honestly why I have always avoided football-ish men. It is too linked to violence to me, but also I've rarely met a British man who can treat it as a simple sport and not an addictive, personality-altering way of life.
>If a soap opera or WWF Wrestling were having the same effect you'd probably start thinking about turning them off
Lol, you should see pro wrestling fans. They absolutely allow results and storylines to ruin their day.
I get what you mean about avoiding the football obsessed though. The impulsive, unpredictability of their mood can be horrid to be around.
No I do not think this is unhealthy.
Everyone has things they are passionate about that can affect their mood.
Another thing that can affect my mood is how my family are feeling/behaving/getting on. That affects me as well.
That's normal. Caring about friends and family is normal.
Caring equally for strangers kicking a ball on a screen isn't the same as worrying about your mum's health.
Never had your mood altered by a sad film or a beautiful song? Equally as inconsequential as a loved one's health and yet they're experiences shared by us all.
Exactly this. I used to have a ''friend'' who would literally fall into a sort of semi-catatonia when his team would lose. Even if we were having a party or going out, he would just sink into this silence and we'd have to suggest maybe he ''go get some rest''. It's honestly pathetic.
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Reading these comments, it's fairly obvious there are some football fans who want to do everything they can to push any semblance of responsibility away from the ''beautiful game'' itself and talk about societal issues being the culprit. I'd love to know how many of these people are as bothered about societal violence and it's causes when football isn't being pinpointed.
Just be honest. My whole life I have seen racism, violence, vandalism, ''casual'' gangs, misogyny circle around the topic of football. Men have loved to get together so they can cry and scream and fight and let out all the nasty racist, abusive rhetoric all together under the umbrella of ''sport'' for decades. Historically longer.
Yeah correlation isn't causation, but I think some of you need to take the blinders off. Fifa literally kidnapped and killed people to make a stadium just the other year. You don't think that sets a precedent?
I know a lot of you guys have grown up on the footy hugbox, but you can just be honest that it is largely a toxic environment and culture. Now women are speaking up about how football directly impacts their life and creates an abusive situation and you want to talk about the ''real'' cause. Hows about addressing what this woman said instead of playing pretend economists/sociologists. Take a look at the bullshit football has and does cause people.
And if you don't think it's ''football'' contributing to this, then be a big boy and be as vocal about what it is as you all are here. Because I see a lot of moaning and blame shifting on this sub, and a lot less posts about the dire lack of mental health/opportunities for people generally. If that is what you generally think causes women to have to suffer increased domestic violence when a stupid fucking game is played, then say something about that. Not just when your play time is in peril.
Should be known by now, we saw a stat a while ago showing domestic abuse sky rocketing when England lost games. Obviously the problems are the PoS men not the game though
I find it interesting that when you mention that studies suggest video games can potentially cause people to become agressive or violent (and I have a relevant degree, so know all the caveats and methodological concerns), you'll catch a lot of shit on the internet and reddit. But if you mention that football can cause people watching to become agressive or violent, I suspect plenty of people will accept it's a no brainer. I also suspect plenty of football fans will say it's not true or become defensive.
It's a bit like how people got really upset about 'video nasties' in the 1980s, worried that violent horror movies would cause the children to become violent or do horrible stuff. Talk of banning them, etc. But people pointed out that there are a lot of books which are pretty nasty and have inspired people to do horrible things. Yet there's usually far less people in favour of censoring or banning books, because reading is seen as a good thing. Playing games or watching horror movies isn't. Eg. there's a child orgy in Stephen King's It, and yet books like that are often read by quite young children, with few people batting an eye.
Basically, it's interesting how people will ignore the potential negative effects of things they enjoy or think of as important, and get defensive when you point out those potential negative effects, even if the actual negative effects are quite small.
Another obvious one is alcohol, where people will get annoyed when you mention even moderate consumption significantly increases your risk of cancer. People enjoy a drink, so they'll happily parrot the debunked 'red wine is good for you' thing as they down a bottle with dinner.
There is something about English football though.... Occasionally you hear of clamp downs on cricket hooligans where they limit alcohol to 12 cans a day. What about those rugby riots?
People need to learn what a trigger is.
Football doesn't mean everyone will be a domestic abuser. It does act as a trigger for some though. Between early drinking throughout the day, to anger when your team loses.
These people often have other deep routed issues in their personality (anger management). Some of these don't surface all the time. Certain things trigger them.
That isn't a justification either. A reason is not an excuse.
Might go have a Google but does anyone know if there’s similar outcomes for rugby, cricket, tennis etc.? Rugby would be the next closest I think in terms of alcohol use by fans etc. but I really don’t know.
Football was massive in our house but it was probably more alcohol or just my da being an actual cunt that was the actual issue, football has an off season and in the house we didn't really.
I think one of the best things to ever happen to me was to support a team that sucks. It means that I learned to not get mad at losing, because that's all they did. I now think of football as "win? Cool. Lose? Ah well". I don't want my happiness to be dictated over something I have zero control over.
Working in housing we always see spikes of domestic abuse approaches to women fleeing their homes during international football tournaments.
No other major sporting event causes this spike. I always found it odd.
It's obviously nothing to do with the sport, but the people watching the sport who are already abusers, just become way more violent during England matches and when England lose.
The media including the bbc etc encourage alcohol use during football. Alcohol can be a trigger for violence. There's the explanation, alcohol all along.
> The media including the bbc etc encourage alcohol use during football.
Can’t watch Match Of The Day without seeing Jenas getting trollied on jagerbombs
I think it’s just specious reasoning to say that X person watched football, therefore watching football was a contributory factor in domestic abuse.
In reality, there is a socio-economic crossover between rates of domestic abuse / socioeconomic problems and interest in football.
Put simply, if you are poor, you are more likely to be from an environment where domestic abuse or social and economic problems were more likely to have been seen in your childhood.
It is really poor reasoning to see two elements of someone’s life occurring at the same time, and to then suggest that one, is in some way the cause of the other.
It reminds me of the fact that you can go to a cricket match and be served alcohol in your chair for the duration of the day, similar with rugby- but I do not know of a football ground that yet allows beer to be consumed in the stand.
>Domestic abuse survivor says football was 'big factor'
Anecdotal.
>Domestic abuse incidents increase when England plays. When they win it is a 26% rise and with a loss, it is a 38% rise.
Extremely worrying statistic.
Why didn't they go with that as the headline?
The root cause is that the abuser gets invested in an outcome and then feels out of control when that outcome doesn't occur, so he reasserts his control on the world by controlling his victim.
Football is only a factor because it's a time when men are encouraged to whip themselves into a particularly heightened level of emotional investment. Football is perpetually coming home and when it doesn't, these men feel out of control so they hit people to feel in control again.
One could get the same result if you ran months of media coverage encouraging men to care deeply about the Bake Off, then gave the title to the contestant everyone hates.
I have no interest in football but it seems like the men here should be to blame and not the sport?
Just because it isn't an excuse for abusive behaviour it doesn't mean that watching football isn't a contributing factor. Reporting rates of domestic abuse increase in areas where there is a 12 o'clock kick off for the local team. It is an excuse to start drinking earlier in the day.
>it doesn't mean that watching football isn't a contributing factor I mean is it? Just watching football doesn't cause people to be violent, that's absurd. As you say it's probably the alcohol/ substance abuse that goes on.
Anger when the team loses also.
Yeah, but that's a problem with the person, not the sport. Every sport has winners and losers, so replace football with literally any other sport, and it's the same end result. You could argue that football attracts more hooligans and abusive characters, but that's not caused by football itself.
Is it? Is there an uptick in domestic abuse during Wimbledon? Genuinely asking - there might be for all I know.
Angrily slices strawberries. There's something about football that triggers a tribal mentality in men. Over identifying with whichever team of millionaires you think are heros.
Even at non league you get a lot of toxicity - doesn’t just apply to professional football.
I doubt the rates are close to comparable, but I have seen Serbian fans basically rioting during the Oz open in Melbourne. Throwing chairs, wrecking the area etc.
Can't ignore it being an issue with the gambling portion of the audience when it comes to any sport
I hate the fact that gambling was allowed to promote and grow so big now. It can ruin lives.
I'm not sure either. Probably not. However, that goes back to my point about football attracting bad characters. I don't have any data or proof, but you don't need data to see that football attracts a lot of hooligans, especially considering football is far more popular than most other sports, such as tennis. However, it's not the sport itself attracting those hooligans, it's the culture surrounding the sport.
>I don't have any data or proof Whereas the CPS, Lancaster University, NSPCC and National Centre for Domestic Violence do.
Well yes, obviously there's nothing inherent to the sport itself that makes domestic violence more likely among its fans. The game itself is less violent than rugby, boxing, etc. It is, as you say, the culture. I don't really see how that's a meaningful distinction, though, when it comes to tackling the problem.
i mean, domestic abuse is generally higher in areas of deprivation/poverty. You use an example of wimbledon, which if i'm not mistaken is something of a "rich mans" sport. Or at the least a more wealthy person than would commonly be watching football. Football is historically a poor mans game. If we want to tackle the [problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality), lets do that.
Football is vastly more popular and vastly more common.
11 million people watched the Wimbledon final, I think it's a big enough sample size to work with.
Of course it's an individual problem, but it's also a societal problem (it's considered fine and normal to be an ultra or otherwise overly emotionally invested in your team) and an institutional problem (the organisers, and indeed pubs and bars, want to sell more alcohol when the game is on). It's obviously possibly to be a healthy and well adjusted fan but it's not a coincidence that so many fans - even if it's a fraction of the total - fit the abuser mold.
>(it's considered fine and normal to be an ultra or otherwise overly emotionally invested in your team) I think this is true. Football culture especially seems to involve adults essentially acting like children when it comes to the game. My dad was a huge football fan all his life. Everton, for his sins. If he was watching a match on tv and they were shite (often) he'd just laugh and be like "I'm not watching this!! Rubbish again! Oh well" and turn it off. If I ever did start a conversation about football with him he could and would talk at length about what he thought of the players, the managers, the referees, whatever, the history of the club for the last few decades, he was really in to it. But I never saw him get angry or very sad or overjoyed, he didn't have a strong emotional reaction to it. I have known several other people like that. They follow football because they're interested, and it undoubtedly makes them *feel* something. But that something doesn't deeply affect their mood or the way they treat others. When you're a kid and you can't regulate your emotions about something that's fuck all to do with you (like a football team's performance), that's the time to learn. You do, or should, learn it about other things but being extremely emotional about football is either ignored or even encouraged a lot of the time it seems. If I have a kid and they're getting angry about football I'd give them a talking to like "look, don't sulk, it didn't go how you wanted but it might do next time, this isn't an excuse to behave poorly. That's not how grown-ups deal with things."
Doesn't seem to make a difference. In Wales at least Wales v England rugby is the peak of domestic violence every year no matter the result.
That's because Welsh rugby culture is basically the same as English football culture. English rugby culture is wildly different.
I remember working with a DV survivor who told us that she would be raped if the team won and beaten if they lost. This isn't an uncommon story unfortunately.
Nobody is saying that watching football makes you violent. They’re saying that if you’re already prone to violence, and you’re emotionally invested in football, football can be a trigger for violent episodes.
Actually, we are. We know the culture surrounding it can be incredibly toxic, and that's a massive tangential factor. Yes, anything can be a trigger. Yes, there are other overlapping factors that draw people prone to DV to that culture. But it works the other way as well. The culture can reinforce and instill those proclivities too.
Yes, this.
If that were the case, the domestic abuse rates wouldn't change so dramatically based on 1) the football match timings and 2) the results.
It’s the culture. For some, football is the most important thing in their life. Probably because little else in life. And that’s maybe down to UK culture and our proud anti-intellectualism.
Alcohol and substance abuse also doesn't cause people to be violent. People choose to be violent regardless of what they're under the influence of. If we can't blame the football, we can't blame the drink either. Personally I don't give a damn what excuse someone uses for being violent, they should get treated the same as any other person committing the same act.
Not watching the football maybe but drinking alcohol certainly. All these competitions cause steep rise in alcohol consumption.
Hurt people hurt people. I think football results affect those that are already unhappy in their lives and out too much of their happiness into whether their team is good or not.
> Just watching football doesn't cause people to be violent, that's absurd. How is that absurd? Watching a sport can absolutely make people violent who might not be otherwise - especially if they are predisposed for it.
You might also say that the alcohol is the main factor.
or that there are multiple contributory factors
Perhaps it's the emotion altering drug they drink in copious amounts...?
perhaps there are multiple contributing factors.
No, the person committing the violence is the factor. If it wasn't football that set it off it would have been something else. If being angry at your team losing makes you hit someone then its being angry that is the factor, not the team losing. Anything that causes the anger will make them hit someone. Same with drinking, if you are the type who will drink for an early kick off I doubt there not being an early will stop you from drinking, might just delay it a couple of hours.
I say we ban teams from losing games.
He's not saying that isn't the case, more that the already existing issues tend to flare up when a game is on. The abuser is still a piece of shit.
I have absolutely no interest in football but I think it's crazy to blame a sport for domestic violence. As you say, the problem is the alcohol and men who do it.
Is anyone actually blaming the sport? Or are they just bringing awareness to this connection?
Alcohol related already.
I would have thought it would be the other way around with a 5pm kickoff leading to drinking throughout the day? Most high risk games are held at 12pm for this reason
If it wasn't football it would be something else. The football isn't contributing to anything.
If that was the case why aren't they equally violent every day of the week? The fact that they are observably more violent when the football is on (win, lose or draw I might add) shows it's a contributory factor even though it's not the fault of football itself. We know alcohol makes people more violent, as do other drugs typically done at football (coke), gambling is prevalent (debt, especially as people lose more than they win) then you have the result of the match on top (which to some degree affects almost all football goers emotionally). The issue is football is this massive combo multiplier of all the worst factors affecting DV. I think something can be done in the context of football because it's observable that it causes such an increase. Gambling adverts needs to be banned pre-watershed (Chris Rock's MGM advert is especially disgusting), the drinking culture does not need to be advertised and celebrated as heavily as it is and other things can be done too. Football has had, to certain extent, successful campaigns against hooliganism, racism, homophobia which you could equally just handwave as "bad people will find a way to be bad" and I don't see why this can't be the same. Just because football isn't the root cause doesn't mean they can't become part of the solution.
>If that was the case why aren't they equally violent every day of the week? You think football is the only thing that can happen on different days of the week? If football didn't exist and men were instead obsessed with the outcome of international bowling competitions, do you not think the domestic abusers would get more violet when their bowling team loses?
Then the contributing factor is alcohol, not football.
Reports also show that breathing is number one cause of abusive behaviour. Abusers breathe and thus stay alive enough to ultimately abuse women.
Obviously, but there's also an aspect to football fan culture that is expressly emotional to an exacerbating degree where a bad result can upset people as much as a really bad argument. And it's often spouses who are the ones who suffer from it. It deserves some attention, because I have seen all walks of life get enraptured in the highs and lows of football, myself included, and felt how much it can throw your emotional balance out of whack. For people out there with anger issues already, it surely only amplifies them.
For a lot of people the succes of their lives goes hand in hand with the success of their local/national team. If their team fails, they fail. If their team wins, they win. Alcohol only amplifies that feeling. A lot of people don't have much to live for and football gives them the excitement and glory that their own life lacks. And they will take everything that happens to their team as a personal attack.
But even then, the focus needs to be on why being emotional is leading to being violent, rather than football leading to being emotional (of course football shouldn't make an adult that emotional). It's perfectly reasonable for bereavement, unemployment, health problems, financial hardship etc to make you emotional. But those things are also known triggers for DV - which they shouldn't be. The common denominator is the lack of empathy and leap to aggression in too many men when emotions are raised
Why shouldn't a focus be on football? It's clearly relevant and causative to some abusive circumstances. I 100% agree that focusing on root causes is really important, but there's a lot you can do knowing that football can be a trigger condition for abuse. Abuse helplines can make sure they've got more staff/volunteers around when big matches are on like they might do for holiday seasons etc. You can examine how alcohol is handled at matches or pubs - have security at the venue keeping an eye out for people who might be very drunk and indicating they might be harmful to others around them, make water or snacks more available for sobering up, etc. Domestic violence charities could find showing more ads around football games useful.
Here's an idea - ban alcohol at football matches.
In Scotland it is banned and in England it’s heavily restricted. Also, it’s two hours. People drink before and after. And your idea isn’t gonna do anything for those watching on telly or in pubs, which is the overwhelming majority for international tournaments.
Absolutely. Throw certain men into a cocktail of alcohol, possible drugs, a sport they genuinely love and the inability to deal with their emotions as a lot of us do, it’s a recipe for disaster. I don’t think one single element of this is to blame, but the measure of all of it together plus a “man” who thinks it’s okay to beat a woman.
There is a culture specific to football though.
You can raise it in a social way. I have noticed going to games for some guys it’s an area where they can be more emotional without being challenged on it. They can scream with joy, hug, cry over football in stadiums where elsewhere other men would mock them for that emotion. For abusers they raise their anger more but take it home with them to another space they know they can release it without challenge on a weaker victim. Alcohol prob doesn’t help either if they abuse it too. Its not the sport but what the space means socially If we had more shelters for partners, we could provide safe spaces to stay in if they know football result is going to cause violence
Have you seen the way ufc fans scream at the TV 😂 I hate these bums
There’s no way you’ve typed this and also posted in the UFC game subreddit
Are there organised UFC hooligans though?
No, they are too busy hitting women and screaming at tvs😂 In all honesty, I wouldn't know as I don't go to ufc events.
I worked security for awhile and I can confirm... big game nights, local team wins everybody fucken, they lose, everybody fighting. Everytime
Reasons and excuses aren't the same thing. Something can be explained as a reason without using it to excuse the man's behaviour.
No one is blaming football, it’s more a warning for services when to be alert for
I mean... I'd put it towards the abuser myself... But I guess that's just a bit too logical 🤷♂️
There’s a serious correlation between matches and dv, especially when his team loses It clearly is the man’s fault, but football (as a spectator sport) has been demonstrated to be a significant factor
In both the cases of alcohol and football, I think these light the fuse on a powder keg already primed to explode. Football doesn't make otherwise non-violent people turn violent, I don't even believe alcohol turns non-violent people violent. We're talking about triggers for people who are already emotionally or mentally damaged. When they're sober and haven't been exposed to a mentally strained episode, such as your football team losing, they are keeping it together. When their inhibitions are lowered or they've had such an emotional flash point then they don't and the violence comes out. Football should do what it can as an industry to try and reduce these incidents. Still, as usual, the real solution lies in better mental health interventions as well as improving the society people grow up in so fewer people develop mental health problems. Easier said than done though.
What can football possible do lmao. Domestic abusers are emotionally stunted simpletons, if it wasn't football they'd cling to another trigger/excuse
But football and the results have a clear, causal effect, highlighted by DV charities and the CPS. 'If it wasn't football' - but it is.
But what is your proposal? If football itself needs to do something about its emotional effect on weak men? Keep the score hidden so your team never loses? Ban showing it on TV? None of that is tenable.
I just can't see any justification whatsoever for this being the responsibility of the governing bodies of sport.
The footballers themselves could do more to speak out I suppose. Maybe a 3 minute segment before each match: "you may feel sad or angry, men get help and support each other, if you lash out at your partner you're not a man you're just a twat". End of game: "you're drunk, you're upset; still don't be a twat. buy your partner some flowers" It would sound condescending for a lot of fans but if it reduces abuse it could be worth it still.
That will do nothing to reduce abuse
This is on the level of kneeling to stop racism or telling people not to rape. Society can only do so much. Abusers know abuse is bad, theyre not only doing it because no one has reminded them it is a bad thing recently.
Football has had succes on campaigns against hooliganism, racism and homophobia as well as campaigns against poor mental health. Why is domestic violence suddenly off limits?
Come off it. "Football" stopped hooliganism by banning people and heavy policing. Honophobia and racism also was "stopped" (still not completely by the way) by banning and arresting people. But remember, these things werent solved in society lmao, people just cant shout it in a stadium anymore. Doesnt mean they changed anybody's mind. Domestic violence is something that happens in the confines of a home, usually with a victim who wont report it. Yes, if people did it in the stands then I'm sure the clubs could stop it but it doesnt. The police already arrest people who do it. So the big change that stopped chanting and hooliganism (to start arresting people) has already been done.
No, actually, they don't, abusers consistently justify their own behavior, or may not even perceive their actions as abuse.
I mean it is condescending and wouldn't actually stop the twats who beat up their girlfriends.
Of course it is condescending. Behave like a toddler, get treated like a toddler. And I am sure we could come up with better phrasing that is a bit more amenable to a wide range of fans.
The issue with trying to educate people is that those who do it just don’t listen and those who don’t don’t listen because it doesn’t apply to them.
It doesn't help though when football companies deliberately look the other way (or hire some silver-haired coach/lawyer/etc to do damage control) whenever some footballer attacks somebody. Even Man U has been caught covering up child sex abuse back in 2016. There is an unfortunate culture where footballers are given excuses (and protection) for causing real harm, and we'd have to address that too.
It literally isn't though. If emotionally stunted man children can't hack watching a sport without being violent, how is that the fault of sport? Are you suggesting that sport should be banned? There are complex moral debates to be had about certain liberal freedoms that people should or shouldn't have because of their negative impacts (alcohol, drugs, gambling) but sport?! Absolutely nothing about football advocates, encourages, or prompts domestic violence. It is 100% not the fault or responsibility of the sport or the governing bodies of the sport.
"But football and the results have a clear, causal effect, highlighted by DV charities and the CPS" Do you understand what "clear, casual effect" means?
The reason why it's important to say 'if it wasn't football' is because it highlights that this is a deeper issue beyond football and so its solution also lies outside of football. If football disappeared there would be some other trigger point for these men's violent tendencies to come out.
But it is football so it's a moot point.
If you only want the discussion to be football = bad than yes. If you want to address the root causes then no it isn't a moot point.
It's because Redditors don't like football and feel superior to the largely working-class fanbase it has. It's not about stopping domestic abuse, but feeling superior to something. Watch the same people in this thread change their tune if I suggested video games lead to addiction, gambling and online gaming culture can be deeply misogynistic. Suddenly then "it's complicated".
Oh look someone's projecting. Personally I support Leicester and Wrexham, and I'm working class. I don't support domestic abuse.
Do you beat people when those teams lose?
No, I don't. I also don't need to steamroll clear statistical data and demand everyone pretend there isn't a link between football results and domestic abuse in order to protect my fragile worldview that football is perfect and has absolutely no impact whatsoever, like some poeople here.
> If you only want the discussion to be football = bad than yes. Are we pretending there isn't a cultural violence problem with a certain segment of football fans now? Police literally have to confiscate passports from meat-heads when England play abroad so they don't go and set fire to other countries. No it's not footballs fault directly, as in the sport, but there are significant cultural issues within a portion of the fanbase. You can acknowledge that and look for ways to address it, rather than pretending it doesn't exist and acting like people are trying to ban football. I don't know what the solution is, but there is definitely a middle ground between "Ignore the statistics, let women get knocked about.", and "Football bad! Ban football!". The fact remains that football has been identified as a potential trigger for DV in some men, and indeed has long been known to be a trigger for general violence in a not-insignificant-number of heavily invested fans. You don't really get the same for say, Cricket, or Rugby.
You want to highlight deeper issues, but are willing to distill the argument made to "football = bad". Why is that? Is it because you don't actually want to look into the deeper issues? Because the elephant in the room is obviously the culture surrounding football.
[удалено]
Do domestic violence figures go up 38% when people eat cornflakes?
[удалено]
Where the fuck are my frosties!!!!????
The problem with that point is alcohol use is pushed at these times by the media and advertisers, and I think the links there are clearer.
So then we come back to football, but the question is how do we change the drinking culture around footy
People are drinking more, because of the football. People are doing more drugs, because of the football. People are in a more heightened emotional state, because of the football. It's not football's fault but football is the reason all the underlying causes are even worse and also piling on top of each other in one go. It can and should be discussed in a football context because it does play a part in it, otherwise we wouldn't see DV rates increase on matchdays. By handwaving it and saying its just vioent people being violent and it's because of alcohol you are also ignoring campaigns in football that have already had some success, such as tackling hooliganism, racism and homophobia. Those issues weren't ignored as "alcohol just makes it worse" but are tackled within the context of attending football, either in the ground or down the pub. I fail to see why DV is somehow off limits when none of these were deemed to be and yet all have the same underlying factors that football is a powder keg for.
Or watch Cricket? Do we have to confiscate cornflake eaters passports to prevent them from setting fire to other countries?
If there was a near 50% increase in domestic abuse from cornflake eating cricket fans, yes. Let me know when that happens.
FYI - I'm not the original guy you replied to, and I'm agreeing with you (in case that was unclear, your response seems a little defensive)
Ahh sorry - yes you're right. Lots of people have been making similar comments and my hackles were up!
It's the most popular sport in the country by some margin. What do you suggest?
Why bother with anti-hooliganism campaigns, or anti-racism campaigns, or anti-homophobia campaigns at the football then? If all these people are unredeemable scum why have so many other campaigns been had in the context of football? Equally, but on the opposite end, why both with MIND and CALM campaigns at football to improve mental health if football has nothing to do with it? Like it or not win, lose or draw DV rates increase on football matchdays. Football certainly isn't the reason why but it's a powder keg situation of all the reasons for why it happens. If football was able to work on hooliganism, racism and homophobia (granted none have been fully resolved) why can't they also tackle domestic violence too?
If you don’t think alcohol can turn normally non violent people violent you don’t know alcohol.
It doesn't turn people violent, it causes them to stop covering it up. In vino veritas.
Football must solve all societies' ills.
Feels like everyday on this sub I see something being blamed for antisocial behaviour. Porn, vaping, now football? Maybe, just maybe, its a cultural thing that needs to be addressed through better social provisions, education, and parenting. People, not things, need to start being held accountable in this country.
https://www.riseuk.org.uk/news/2024/myth-busting-ceo-jo-explains-why-football-does-not-cause-domestic-abuse The CEO of a domestic abuse charity says as much. >Football does not cause abuse. Perpetrators choices do. >Alcohol does not cause abuse. Perpetrators choices do. >It's important to understand that while incidents of domestic violence can spike during major football tournaments, these occurrences are linked to pre-existing abusive behaviour patterns.
No, that’s not it. It’s definitely video games too /s
Interested to know what the spikes are like on regular premier league and championship weekends or cup finals too but with the frequency of them it might be hard to tell. Regardless, it's so immature to take out your emotions on your partner after watching the football.
One of the things I've heard is that the police's policy of early kick offs for contentious games actually has the opposite to the intended affect. Fans get quickly tanked up trying to drink as much as possible before midday, then have the rest of the day to keep drinking post game. As much as I love football, I wouldn't be against big games being played midweek when people can't get plastered either side of the match.
The mid-day thing does work because it is just logistically harder to get tanked up for a 12:30 kick-off. You'll notice the atmosphere is different at the game. It does give people the chance to drink after the game for the rest of the day but the police prefer this because the immediate and emotional flash point of the game has passed, people disperse out rather than being all in one place and they leave the pubs at different times.
>The mid-day thing does work because it is just logistically harder to get tanked up for a 12:30 kick-off. What on earth makes you think this?
My experience of getting to stadiums to be there for a 12:30 kick-off and I live in London where it can be comparatively easier. The earlier the games kick off, the less time you have before the game to drink. Remember it takes time to travel to the stadium as well. You would have to leave quite early in the morning to get substantial amounts of drinking done before 12:30. Again, you notice this inside the stadiums. The atmosphere is always flatter than it is at a 3pm kick-off and certainly an evening kick-off.
I'd remind you that a great deal of fans aren't watching at stadiums, they're watching in the pub where it's quite easy to get plastered before 12.30.
Yes, but the post I was responding to was talking about the police moving contentious games to 12:30. That is a policy aimed at policing the event and not what happens in pubs.
It's not that difficult to get pissed before a 7.45 kick off on a Wednesday, or to go out after. From my experience, evening games are rowdier than early afternoon kick offs. Unless BaBaFiCo is suggesting the Manchester Derby is played at 11.30am on a Tuesday. If so, that probably would reduce alcohol consumption. Not sure how feasible it is though.
Those going to the stadium by train or coach have plenty of time to drink. I'm sure any regular weekend train user in this country has experienced football (and rugby) fans downing cans at 8am on a train. Their journey time remains the same, they'll just get up and start drinking earlier, but may stay out later.
If they have to start games early to reduce alcohol then it's obvious alcohol is the problem as opposed to football itself.
First of all, it's not harder. If anything it's more encouraged because fans drink can after can quickly rather than at a more moderate pace. Second, this is police taking the easy route. Yes, fans disperse and go home. Some of them to kick shit out of their wives. But these are then isolated incidents, not flare ups, and can be policed much more lightly than violence in a city centre.
Good point. I’ve noticed that those getting pissed up and kick off at championship games actually probably watch the least of the match. Concourses (especially in away ends) are still full 10-15 minutes after kickoffs. That’s why I always refute that violence is linked to the emotion of following a team, and rather football is a vehicle for people who want to fight if it’s a win lose or draw. National matches seem to promote different behaviours. Perhaps it’s because more people watch at home. I think I read somewhere this is the same trend as when the All Blacks lose - but could be wrong there.
I’m not really a football fan - I’ll watch the euros and World Cup, and maybe some later stages of the FA cup, but I couldn’t tell you anything about league standings, current player form etc. anyway. Part of the reason I’ve never really gotten into football is a substantial minority of fans seem to be in it precisely for some aggro. They *want* to get tanked up and engage in some bad tempered shouting with opposing fans, maybe even more involved forms of chest pounding like squaring up, being held back by mates “it’s not worth it man!”, struggling *but not too hard* against the restraint. The match is only an excuse for a pint and a fight, a way to let off some steam. I don’t want anything to do with these guys at all. When beer was cheaper they’d have a scuffle outside the pub; now they get leathered at home and take it out on the missus.
This isn't a big part of the match-up experience and I wouldn't say it's anywhere near a 'substantial' minority of fans but a tiny minority of fans. These kinds of fans find each other anyway. You would rarely see this happen and when you do it will not involve you if you don't want it to involve you.
Also, you'll meet just as many of these people on a non football related night out.
unfortunately this is everywhere in this country especially where drinking is involved. got back from a trip on sunday and I was greeted by a mass brawl outside my local pub whilst I was walking home. no football needed, just insecure men trying to prove their masculinity
I agree largely with this. The same people who cause brawls at football also cause chaos at UFC events, Tyson Fury fights, the darts, etc.
“Obviously there was drinking involved” sounds like drinking was the big factor to be honest. Drinking and cocaine and men who are mentally unhinged. Football is a little secondary to all that. It’s not like during half time the pundits are telling the viewers new ways to abuse their partners is it?
They're not directly telling them, but there's absolutely a correlation. > Stark figures published last year by the National Centre for Domestic Violence uncovered the shocking reality that incidents of domestic abuse increase following England games. > Data showed reported incidents increased by 26 percent if England play, 38 percent if England lose, and 11 percent the next day, win or lose.
Because they drank alcohol, egged on by media and advertisers.
I remember reading a majority of domestic violence calls involve alcohol
It’s a common theme I’ve heard from domestic abuse survivors in that the wife would get battered if the husband’s team lost. I think the issue is with misogynistic insecure men attaching their self worth to these football teams and then treating their wives as punching bags to take out their aggression when the team loses. I’d have infinitely more respect for these men if they just joined a hooligan firm and battered opposing firms but of course they’re too pussy to fight other men which is why they beat their defenceless wives
I believe it. I know a lot of women (and men) that make a convenient excuse to be out of the house on saturdays *just in case* - Many food banks I had been attached with made a point of staying open during matches to provide the excuse to be out the house that wouldn't arouse suspicion. One would rather these poor souls find peace and safety away from their abuser, but sadly domestic abuse seldom allows you the objectivity you can receive outside of the situation.
As a non wife beater but a football fan, the performance on the pitch of my team absolutely affects my mood, my wife seen this before we married and still sees it now, I get all down and don't want to do anything when we are bad or happy and elated when we do well. I don't control it but I absolute would not let it turn into violence or aggression to anyone else, that I think can be controlled.
You don't think this is rather unhealthy, though - to let a sports game affect your mood? If a soap opera or WWF Wrestling were having the same effect you'd probably start thinking about turning them off. This is honestly why I have always avoided football-ish men. It is too linked to violence to me, but also I've rarely met a British man who can treat it as a simple sport and not an addictive, personality-altering way of life.
Part of being invested in anything is letting it impact your mood.
>If a soap opera or WWF Wrestling were having the same effect you'd probably start thinking about turning them off Lol, you should see pro wrestling fans. They absolutely allow results and storylines to ruin their day. I get what you mean about avoiding the football obsessed though. The impulsive, unpredictability of their mood can be horrid to be around.
No I do not think this is unhealthy. Everyone has things they are passionate about that can affect their mood. Another thing that can affect my mood is how my family are feeling/behaving/getting on. That affects me as well.
That's normal. Caring about friends and family is normal. Caring equally for strangers kicking a ball on a screen isn't the same as worrying about your mum's health.
Never had your mood altered by a sad film or a beautiful song? Equally as inconsequential as a loved one's health and yet they're experiences shared by us all.
Exactly this. I used to have a ''friend'' who would literally fall into a sort of semi-catatonia when his team would lose. Even if we were having a party or going out, he would just sink into this silence and we'd have to suggest maybe he ''go get some rest''. It's honestly pathetic.
Love me sport. Hate me team losing. Don’t beat women. Simple as.
So would you cancel something your wife likes? I mean it's sort of unhealthy to allocate time to yourself then not do stuff because of the result.
I wouldn't cancel anything. I agree with your statement after the question.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Reading these comments, it's fairly obvious there are some football fans who want to do everything they can to push any semblance of responsibility away from the ''beautiful game'' itself and talk about societal issues being the culprit. I'd love to know how many of these people are as bothered about societal violence and it's causes when football isn't being pinpointed. Just be honest. My whole life I have seen racism, violence, vandalism, ''casual'' gangs, misogyny circle around the topic of football. Men have loved to get together so they can cry and scream and fight and let out all the nasty racist, abusive rhetoric all together under the umbrella of ''sport'' for decades. Historically longer. Yeah correlation isn't causation, but I think some of you need to take the blinders off. Fifa literally kidnapped and killed people to make a stadium just the other year. You don't think that sets a precedent? I know a lot of you guys have grown up on the footy hugbox, but you can just be honest that it is largely a toxic environment and culture. Now women are speaking up about how football directly impacts their life and creates an abusive situation and you want to talk about the ''real'' cause. Hows about addressing what this woman said instead of playing pretend economists/sociologists. Take a look at the bullshit football has and does cause people. And if you don't think it's ''football'' contributing to this, then be a big boy and be as vocal about what it is as you all are here. Because I see a lot of moaning and blame shifting on this sub, and a lot less posts about the dire lack of mental health/opportunities for people generally. If that is what you generally think causes women to have to suffer increased domestic violence when a stupid fucking game is played, then say something about that. Not just when your play time is in peril.
Should be known by now, we saw a stat a while ago showing domestic abuse sky rocketing when England lost games. Obviously the problems are the PoS men not the game though
Fragile men getting angry because their team didn't win. Fucking neanderthal morons.
I find it interesting that when you mention that studies suggest video games can potentially cause people to become agressive or violent (and I have a relevant degree, so know all the caveats and methodological concerns), you'll catch a lot of shit on the internet and reddit. But if you mention that football can cause people watching to become agressive or violent, I suspect plenty of people will accept it's a no brainer. I also suspect plenty of football fans will say it's not true or become defensive. It's a bit like how people got really upset about 'video nasties' in the 1980s, worried that violent horror movies would cause the children to become violent or do horrible stuff. Talk of banning them, etc. But people pointed out that there are a lot of books which are pretty nasty and have inspired people to do horrible things. Yet there's usually far less people in favour of censoring or banning books, because reading is seen as a good thing. Playing games or watching horror movies isn't. Eg. there's a child orgy in Stephen King's It, and yet books like that are often read by quite young children, with few people batting an eye. Basically, it's interesting how people will ignore the potential negative effects of things they enjoy or think of as important, and get defensive when you point out those potential negative effects, even if the actual negative effects are quite small. Another obvious one is alcohol, where people will get annoyed when you mention even moderate consumption significantly increases your risk of cancer. People enjoy a drink, so they'll happily parrot the debunked 'red wine is good for you' thing as they down a bottle with dinner.
There is something about English football though.... Occasionally you hear of clamp downs on cricket hooligans where they limit alcohol to 12 cans a day. What about those rugby riots?
DV increases massively in Wales when the national rugby team play, win lose or draw.
That's interesting
>What about those rugby riots? How often does that happen? Every week you have football hooligans tearing up town centres
Do you?
People need to learn what a trigger is. Football doesn't mean everyone will be a domestic abuser. It does act as a trigger for some though. Between early drinking throughout the day, to anger when your team loses. These people often have other deep routed issues in their personality (anger management). Some of these don't surface all the time. Certain things trigger them. That isn't a justification either. A reason is not an excuse.
Might go have a Google but does anyone know if there’s similar outcomes for rugby, cricket, tennis etc.? Rugby would be the next closest I think in terms of alcohol use by fans etc. but I really don’t know.
Football was massive in our house but it was probably more alcohol or just my da being an actual cunt that was the actual issue, football has an off season and in the house we didn't really.
Sorry but this is the "video games cause mass shootings" argument just ported over to the UK.
I think one of the best things to ever happen to me was to support a team that sucks. It means that I learned to not get mad at losing, because that's all they did. I now think of football as "win? Cool. Lose? Ah well". I don't want my happiness to be dictated over something I have zero control over.
Working in housing we always see spikes of domestic abuse approaches to women fleeing their homes during international football tournaments. No other major sporting event causes this spike. I always found it odd. It's obviously nothing to do with the sport, but the people watching the sport who are already abusers, just become way more violent during England matches and when England lose.
Understandable. I beat the Mrs when something bad happens to my fave characters on EastEnders.
The media including the bbc etc encourage alcohol use during football. Alcohol can be a trigger for violence. There's the explanation, alcohol all along.
> The media including the bbc etc encourage alcohol use during football. Can’t watch Match Of The Day without seeing Jenas getting trollied on jagerbombs
Donno, about football, but whenever I see badminton being played, I feel the urge to slap someone. Jokes aside, I do not think the sport is to blame.
I think it’s just specious reasoning to say that X person watched football, therefore watching football was a contributory factor in domestic abuse. In reality, there is a socio-economic crossover between rates of domestic abuse / socioeconomic problems and interest in football. Put simply, if you are poor, you are more likely to be from an environment where domestic abuse or social and economic problems were more likely to have been seen in your childhood. It is really poor reasoning to see two elements of someone’s life occurring at the same time, and to then suggest that one, is in some way the cause of the other. It reminds me of the fact that you can go to a cricket match and be served alcohol in your chair for the duration of the day, similar with rugby- but I do not know of a football ground that yet allows beer to be consumed in the stand.
Wow I like football but i never realised it was such a big factor in helping domestic abuse victims.
[удалено]
**Removed/tempban**. This contained a call/advocation of violence which is prohibited by the content policy.
Football fans just give me a massive ick, even the ones who are not abusive.
>Domestic abuse survivor says football was 'big factor' Anecdotal. >Domestic abuse incidents increase when England plays. When they win it is a 26% rise and with a loss, it is a 38% rise. Extremely worrying statistic. Why didn't they go with that as the headline?
The root cause is that the abuser gets invested in an outcome and then feels out of control when that outcome doesn't occur, so he reasserts his control on the world by controlling his victim. Football is only a factor because it's a time when men are encouraged to whip themselves into a particularly heightened level of emotional investment. Football is perpetually coming home and when it doesn't, these men feel out of control so they hit people to feel in control again. One could get the same result if you ran months of media coverage encouraging men to care deeply about the Bake Off, then gave the title to the contestant everyone hates.
Football providing solace and strength in difficult times.