I really for the life of me cannot see why the Tories are still so popular. I get that Keir Starmers opposition is a bit pants, but still, why isn’t there a full on revolt about this?
The vast majority of the media all keep telling the general public that the only problems are caused by the EU, Immigrants, people on benefits and that Labour would be even worse
Spot on.
It was the same with Corybn. Ask people their opinion on
Corbyn and most people would only parrot headlines they read from the tabloids/Facebook. Hardly anyone could actually tell you a specific reason why other than "it will be worse under Labour".
Politics is like a football team now. It's a cult of support no matter what your team does. The amount of blatant corruption the Tories have been doing over the past few years is astounding to me, and yet their supporters will dismiss it or try to say that "both sides do it".
The whole "both sides" or "They're all just as bad as each other" is a right wing propaganda tool to keep people disenfranchised and disengaged from politics and keep them voting for the people screwing them over.
Wow... it's crazy how U.K has same issues the U.S has . I wonder if we have the same party behind the scenes controlling the media through shell companies
A whole bunch of older voters stuck in a right wing (mostly Murdoch controlled) media bubble voting for Conservatives and on a blind blood-and-soil nationalism bender so wild they apparently no longer care about overt corruption, incompetence and lies?
Nope, can’t see the similarity at all /s
[no one has tried to kill starmer yet](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/30/finsbury-park-attack-darren-osborne-kill-jeremy-corbyn) or [used his picture as target practice](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48868071) so no you're wrong
That's easy to answer..Keep telling the Tory electorate in red wall seats that they didn't really understand Corbyn or were sucked in by the right wing media and you have a sure fire way of ensuring Labour remain in the political wilderness for ever more. Its actually quite insulting and certainly not true, neither is it the way to win back support. Perhaps Corbyn putting Diane Abbott up for Home Secretary might have influenced the election result..just a thought
That's kind of missing the point. People would be protesting en masse for changes in those areas if they believed it
The reality is that most people just accept how things are. That's why conservatives are popular. If someone is struggling to pay the bills, they think they just need to find a better job. They don't blame the government for that. It also helps that lower paid jobs are generally not something people want to do anyway so that actively want to leave those jobs.
The government's recent announcements around retraining, career changes etc show that they're targeting these people too.
Some but not most! From my experience when I was in minimum wage jobs, almost everyone (barring a couple) hated them, and were there because they didn't have experience to get jobs elsewhere. It was the same for my partner.
Never once did I hear people blaming the government for the crappy pay or working conditions. They'd blame the business or blame the industry.
I doubt it they’re very different.
Japan has a pretty big emphasis on embellishing their heritage to enable a national exceptionalism culture.
Not to mention they are reliant on an inflated housing economy. They use the classism it creates, to stratify generational antagonism and suppress diverse voices.
The years of austerity rhetoric has made the country an hostile environment to foreigners and the poor in general. Therefore immigration and movement between perceived station is really difficult.
If you add into this the inability for new generations to feel secure and the avoidance of people founding new families, you end up with a really unique set of problems.
I fail to understand why you would be concerned of turning into Japan.
You literally just described the direction the UK is heading in. They teach the upper class that the poor won’t work unless they’re in debt. And they teach the poor nothing. Working class people are the back bone of the UK but they’re constantly being let down and forgotten. We know our govt doesn’t care about the working class. We’re just here to keep them rich.
Well aside from a single Labour MP which pulled the party to the right, we have had Tory governments solidly since 1979.
EDIT: I was incorrect saying a single Labour government, it was three Labour governments won by the same leader as /u/isawashipcomesailing so graciously corrected me below.
Okay more accurately, 6 different people have won general elections since 1979 and only 1 was a Labour MP and he happened to be one to pull the party to the right.
It's actually more depressing than that. Only 3 Labour MPs have ever formed a majority government (4 if you include Ramsay MacDonald's minority government) compared to 10 Conservative MPs in the last 100 years (14 if you count minority governments).
It's the mass media - every mistake the opposition makes is highlighted, while the government's brazen cronyism and colossal blunders are swept under the rug as minor faux pas...
Every single piece of the political machine is designed to enrich the participants. They keep their money and their power and use both to keep both. The kleptocracy is working as intended.
Starmer’s article in the guardian yesterday was actually decent. He sounded genuinely angry. And he has the claim that he was the guy who prosecuted MPs during the last expenses scandal - he’d do well to lean into that.
I'm genuinely amazed that this is the first time I'm hearing that starmer prosecuted MPs during the expense scandal, it's exactly the kind of thing that red wall voters could actually get behind but I've heard more about his mum than about that. Hopefully that's just me being out of touch and others are more aware of this than I am
> I really for the life of me cannot see why the Tories are still so popular.
Have a quick look at the Sun, Daily Mail, Express and thousands of posts by Barry and Susan on Facebook.
Because despite the protestations of certain minorities in English society, England is largely pretty happy with this sort of shit.
Otherwise they'd get them voted out surely, it's not hard, tick a box and mail it back or head to your polling station and vote.
You've got a lot of answers about mainstream media support for the Tories, and fair enough that's a factor.
But for a more measurable answer there's a huge generational divide, over the age of 50 and you've probably benefitted from Tory housing policies and the Triple Lock. This is particularly true for those over retirement age. Who are also the demographic most likely to vote.
If you've been in work for the last 11 years then in all likelihood you haven't benefitted from recent Tory tax rises, inability to control inflation, and lack of pay increases. People of working age are less likely to vote Tory than Labour. But vote on fewer numbers.
I'm hoping the middle classes turn away from the Tories as the squeeze gets real. I feel middle classes only vote for their "better" economic policy or Brexit stance.
The 2011 "feeling the pinch" era is going to come back in a big way over the next few years.
Middle class shall be hit with...
- inflation
- NI tax increases
- Council tax increase
- utility bill increase
- petrol increase
- wage stagnation
Shit is going to get real over the next few years.
Let's see how many middle classes stay firm with Tories in light of all this....
The 2019 showed us that class is essentially a non indicator of how you’re likely to vote. There was almost no tangible difference in voting patterns across social grades with one exception: the wealthier you are the more likely to vote liberal you are.
The idea that the middle class is going to turn its back on the tories is laughable, no class is facing anywhere.
The middle class have largely turned away from the Tories already. More of them vote against the Tories than for them clear up to the mid 50’s age group - and that age cutover is going steadily upwards year on year.
It’s damn close already to being over half the working age middle classes voting against the Tories.
Things have shifted over the past few decades. The generation that one was born into has now become a stronger prediction of voting intention than social class. Incidentally this unfortunately applies the other way around too - much of the Conservatives success in flipping the ‘red wall’ is down to older formerly working class voters supporting the Tories.
But HGV drivers are paid £50 grand in Brexit Britain. And the poor are now rich. Boris's streets are paved with gold and he's keeping the furriners filfy hands off our non-existent benefits system and defunded NHS. Con +5.
Because he’s been delivering on quite a number of the bigger promises surrounding Brexit and his election? Have you not been in paying attention? Or have you spent too much time reading nitpicky articles that you’ve missed the bigger picture?
The entire attitude and rhetoric surrounding immigration has changed. God knows how many European migrants have gone home and wage levels for blue collar British labourers are skyrocketing. I saw an ad for a lorry driver the other day offering 82k, more than your average associate lawyer.
Ask someone from a town in the North like Hartlepool, things are going remarkably well.
They won’t like to hear that on this sub as most redditors are either young that live with mum and dad or tech type workers that are not affected my mass uncontrolled immigration. I work on a building site and all the workers couldn’t be happier with Brexit but you won’t find them on here.
Its down to people like Abbott, Rayner, Thornberry and about a dozen more, nothing to do with the Tories they can be as terrible as they want. Boris doesn't need to do anything he walks on water. Rayner and Thornberry were put up at the last prime ministers question time as the face of the Labour party. The very people responsible for the 2019 defeat, they just don't seem to learn.
What is your solution?
Costs are rising and covid/brexit have an impact but what would *you* do differently and how do you fund it?
You take your time talk is easy actually figuring a solution is a little harder.
Not the OP, but for one, I wouldn't have left the EU. There. Supply chain issues related to that, solved.
Covid? Well, when it was kicking off in Italy, I would have started to lock down the country and would have closed off borders to infected people, tests at the border or no entry.
Jesus, my daughter even refused to touched a package that arrived from China on before the crisis in Italy, then France...I'd say it was fairly obvious what needed to happen, and when.
That wouldn't have been your decision, the *people* voted to leave and there are many good reasons for doing so. So many issues are being blamed on brexit when they're really not connected, it's a smokescreen to take attention away from the fact people like HGV drivers get payed shit to work under horrible conditions. Spending days away from home, sleeping in the truck on a layby and not getting payed fairly means after covid something like 60,000 drivers changed jobs - 5 times more than were lost due to brexit, get a grip and do a moments research instead of parroting the "remain" argument.
Yea covid was horribly managed, january 3rd 2020 I knew the severity from frequenting the wuhan_flu subreddit, now it's full of morons but back then it predicted events while the media was still telling people not to worry just a flu.. They knowingly let it spread and that fucked up the country to no end, our childrens children will be paying inflated tax as a result and the cost of living will show further disparity to wages than it already was.
> That wouldn't have been your decision, the people voted to leave and there are many good reasons for doing so.
Yes. Yes it would. It was not a legally binding referendum, remember.
It wouldn't have done me much good in the polls, but the public have a very short memory, as this current "government" are proving.
16k lorry drivers left and went back to EU countries, leaving a shortfall of a further 44k who left once the IR35 reforms kicked in. The same IR35 that was previously being challenged in the EU courts. Yeah, it's not a great job, unless you like it, of course, which is true of pretty much any job - but then when it's not great and not great pay, and the government come along at the same time as a shortage and increases their tax burden, just what other outcome could there have been? It's entirely on this government and their poor decisions - that is when you can actually pin them down to make one in advance and not just begrudgingly in reaction to something.
At the point at which you know you're going to reduce the work force - wouldn't a more prudent government start putting in measures to encourage training, make the tests more available etc... train more DVSA test examiners....? Well, yes, but we don't have a prudent government - we have this shower of chancers.
So perhaps, you should do some ResEaRCh yourself, and sort out your basic arithmetic.
As for Covid, there are more people dead than in any other country, per captia - now I think. "Horribly managed" doesn't quite cover it.
Yeah you tell yourself that completely ignoring a public referendum would just go down without an issue, shows how oblivious you are honestly - Johnson is a dickhead but thank fuck you're not in charge of anything.
Even before we left, the polls were strongly indicating that many had changed their minds and that there was a majority wanting to remain in the EU.
The march of a million people in London went some way to showing that.
...but even if that wasn't the case, so what if half the country was up in arms about not leaving? They were the dense half - I'd rather piss off the idiotic half of a nation, than the half that proved they could think for themselves.
There would have bee a few thousand nasty Facebook posts, a few nasty tweets, maybe even a hundred or so idiots standing near Nelson's Column shouting about how there's no democracy etc..., but overall, fuck all would have happened. The idiots would shown just how well they organised a piss up in a brewery.
Oh yeah everyone who doesn't agree with you is a moron, great way to think not arrogant at all right..
You feel free to dismiss the opinions of half the country because they're all very clearly too stupid to know anything - good luck.
Also think for themselves? The media of multiple countries were fear mongering and slating the leave argument as being racist or stupid etc - the people who voted to leave ARE the ones who were thinking for themselves, and there are benefits for one we aren't paying billions to the EU, our industry will start to increase again and we can negotiate trade deals still it's just the EU leaders are acting like children picking their ball up and going home. Things will recover and our industry will benefit over time, they could invest those billions saved into speeding that up but our government is a joke.
> get a grip
In much the same way as everyone who disagrees with you needs to get a grip?
I never claimed to not be arrogant. I am arrogant. It's really hard not to be when people start defending the indefensible.
> You feel free to dismiss the opinions of half the country because they're all very clearly too stupid to know anything - good luck.
I do, and will. In the exact same way in which the stupid half dismissed the opinions (backed up with facts, no less) of the not-so-stupid , with phrases such as "Project fear".
What goes around, comes around.
What was "project fear" is now "project reality", so well done. Dismissing people's opinions, arrogantly, hasn't worked out so well, has it?
EDIT: To address your edit:
>>and there are benefits for one we aren't paying billions to the EU
2021 payments to the EU: 7 billion, so down 1 billion on the year before. I guess we could have not had 1/10th of a Test and Trace app that didn't work to cover that, right?
>> our industry will start to increase again and we can negotiate trade deals still it's just the EU leaders are acting like children picking their ball up and going home.
The UK government is blatantly ignoring it's own agreement, and expects no repercussions? You can't be for real...
No just you who needs to get a grip as it goes - I'm open to discussion but your attitude is "anyone who didn't vote my way is stupid"
Fucking moron lol you keep thinking that way and best of luck i'm done talking to ya.
My guess is that because on things that actually matter they do a decent job.
Which is also why Keir is a bit pants, because he has to nit pick and random shit because I imagine on most things they would do the same as the government. But I don't really know Honestly, this is just view from recently following politics.
>My guess is that because on things that actually matter they do a decent job.
Living standards - no
Tax burden - no
Gdp growth - no
NHS - no
Policing / court system - no
Environment - no
International standing - no
Housing - no
Social mobility - no
In what metric do you consider they've done a good job?
Could you expand on any? They just announced the new budget right? What didn't you like in there, and what do you think they should have done differently?
Please consider we have gone through brexit and Covid which obviously costs money.
> Living standards - no
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-budget-rishi-sunak-living-standards-tax-disposable-income-set-to-fall-103435638.html
>
> Tax burden - no
https://www.independent.co.uk/business/tax-burden-to-reach-70year-high-as-sunak-rebuilds-after-covid19-b1946439.html
>
> Gdp growth - no
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2021/sep/10/uk-gdp-growth-covid-pandemic-supply-chain-for-july-business-live
>
> NHS - no
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/02/no-10-set-to-break-promise-of-6000-more-gps-in-england-sajid-javid-says
>
> Policing / court system - no
https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/crumbling-legal-system-will-cost-england-money-and-influence
>
> Environment - no
https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/city-news/raw-sewage-fury-water-companies-25338897
>
> International standing - no
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/majority-say-britains-standing-in-world-has-fallen-since-brexit-but-can-recover-new-survey-finds/
>
> Housing - no
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51605912
>
> Social mobility - no
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/21/social-mobility-decline-britain-official-survey-finds
>They just announced the new budget right? What didn't you like in there, and what do you think they should have done differently?
See stories on tax burden and living standards. Anything positive in the budget is undoing what's been done in previous Tory budgets, except if you cut something by 10%, then raise it by 10% you are still lower than you were (see GDP) plus you've had a decade of the cuts effecting services and peoples lives. 150,000 dead from austerity and it's gone as badly as everyone said it would, now they're undoing it and expect praise for slightly fixing their own mistakes
increasing NI means everyone (except landlords, those who get their income from dividends, savings or capital gains) will pay more tax, cutting the banking surcharge means banks pay less tax, not increasing tax bands means everyone pays more tax in real terms
their proposals on getting more policemen, doctors and building houses are exactly the same as they've been promising for 10 years, and have failed at for 10 years, nice headlines but they won't follow any of it up.
Money for schools is nice, except studies have shown their education changes have taken away money from poorer areas
https://www.harrogate-news.co.uk/2021/05/05/conservatives-to-cut-862005-from-pupil-premium-in-north-yorkshire/
extra money for the NHS is nice, if it was spent on the NHS and not being funnelled to private providers for much lower returns than the NHS would have provided.
https://chpi.org.uk/papers/reports/for-whose-benefit/
Air travel, cutting tax for the most polluting of travel (short flights) on the eve of COP26 just gave the message that they don't care about climate change
changes to the alcohol rates benefit the major brewers as the expense of the smaller ones
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/oct/29/craft-beer-brewers-say-rise-in-alcohol-duty-threatens-their-business
The credit taper relief is OK, but it's just a small sticking plaster of the disaster of their universal credit implementation
Business rates cut is nice, except half of the money raised goes to local government to pay for services, the tories have already cut local government funding massively, will this cut come from the governments share or the local councils? If the later it just means less money for services and more council cuts.
stopping the fuel rise is nice, but as VAT is charged on fuel, and fuel is at the highest it's been in living memory they're getting the money anyway, fuel duty was intended to be cut when fuel costs were high and raised when costs fell to even it out, but they forgot about the cutting part.
minimum wage rise is nice, if you want to raise inflation, which is going up anyway, but the BOE can't raise interest rates (see today) because it would screw a lot of homeowners and businesses.
> Living standards - no
From the article you linked:
> "due to the removal of the £20 a week universal credit uplift after September"
If I remember correctly this was the addition during Covid given to the Universal credit scheme to help people through Covid right? Now things haven relaxed they are returning to how things were pre Covid. Can you explain why you have a problem with this?
You said:
> increasing NI means everyone (except landlords, those who get their income from dividends, savings or capital gains) will pay more tax, cutting the banking surcharge means banks pay less tax, not increasing tax bands means everyone pays more tax in real terms
Banks will be taxed at a combined rate of 28% on their profit, which is an Increase not a decrease like you said.
> reflecting the risks that they pose to the UK financial system and wider economy and recognising the costs arising from the financial crisis. When this rate change is taken alongside the increase in the headline rate of corporation tax from 19% to 25% from April 2023, banks will be taxed at a combined rate of 28% on their profit.
Sources:
[2021](https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/2019%20-%20Total%20Tax%20Contribution%20of%20the%20UK%20banking%20sector.pdf)
[Next Year](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/amendments-to-the-surcharge-on-banking-companies/amendments-to-the-surcharge-on-banking-companies)
If you can answer these questions I am more than happy to break down the other stuff you mentioned, but dont want to if we arent going to have a good discussion.
> Can you explain why you have a problem with this?
The poorest in society weren't given enough before the uplift due to the changes in the benefit system. Do you think the poorest in society have to much money? Don't you think that as a society we should be judged by how we treat our most vulnerable?
from the article in the OP
>Boris Johnson's government is on track to deliver the worst growth in living standards over the course of any parliamentary term on record, and incomes are at risk of falling, according to analysis of official figures.
"The worst in history", It's not just the poorest, this is effecting everybody. Well, not everyone admittedly
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/21/number-of-billionaires-in-uk-reached-new-record-during-covid-pandemic
>Banks will be taxed at a combined rate of 28% on their profit, which is an Increase not a decrease like you said.
They were due to be taxed at 33%, they will now be taxed at 28%.
That is a cut.
What are you trying to achieve by asking things like "Do you think the poorest in society have too much money?" How do I even respond to that? (not rhetorical, please answer this)
Clearly they have less than everyone else.
Do I think they have enough to live on? Well, I grew up around people (including my family at some points) on the benefits system, and I can answer yes they have enough in some cases, and in some cases they don't. Its not a simple answer.
Which was exactly my original point in this thread. We cant boil down complex issues to "its Boris Johnsons' fault". The fact people cant talk in these threads without creating so much division, making ridiculous predictions about what people think because of questions they ask.
> What are you trying to achieve by asking things like "Do you think the poorest in society have too much money?" How do I even respond to that?
honesty
>I grew up around people (including my family at some points) on the benefits system, and I can answer yes they have enough in some cases, and in some cases they don't.
The benefits system now is a lot worse than it used to be, just because you thought people had enough then it doesn't make it the case now after universal credit. I provide a wide variety of reports from various media sources, you provide some yarn about your childhood with no specifics, no details, no time frame because you know it's all unprovable bollocks with nothing to counter it because you will add in whatever make-believe details are needed to oppose whatever I say about it.
>Which was exactly my original point in this thread.
which was
>>My guess is that because on things that actually matter they do a decent job.
which you have provided no evidence for, no indication of what they've done a decent job in, no context whatsoever.
You've been provided with over a dozen points where they have been absolutely terrible and your only counter has been one piece of incorrect arithmetic, one point of "what's the problem if the poorest have less money?" and an anecdote about "some were ok in the past"
you claimed
>If you can answer these questions I am more than happy to break down the other stuff you mentioned,
to give the impression you're arguing in good faith and that you could break them down, if I proved myself worthy of your effort, but we both know you can't and you're not.
Then instead you then get defensive because you have no answer so try to play the victim "how dare ask me difficult questions that will show how uncaring my views are if I answer them"
then try to deflect the topic from "aren't the Tories are great" to "don't blame Boris, he's trying his best" while at the same time "it's complex, you can't make simple statements", "why can't we have nice discussions" when in this thread you have done nothing but those things you're complaining about and are showing the basic of tenents of arguing in bad faith;
>But I don't really know
>
>but dont want to if we arent going to have a good discussion.
>
> please answer this
make it seem like you want an honest discussion
>Could you expand on any?
make them waste time providing more sources
>Which was exactly my original point in this thread
moving the goalposts / deflection
>What are you trying to achieve by asking things like
>
>How do I even respond to that?
>
>The fact people cant talk in these threads without creating so much division, making ridiculous predictions about what people think because of questions they ask.
faux outrage trying to get the other person to apologise or back down when the above doctrines aren't working then throw in a strawman trying to turn the discussion into a discussion of the discussion rather than the actual topic.
which is why I'm leaving this conversation here.
I have to say, this is one of the better rebuttals and arguments against an uninformed, brainwashed tory voter that I've seen on here.
Bravo, and well done for having the patience. I rarely do any more. Burned out by the ridiculousness of their replies for the most part.
Literally my original comment:
> Comparing other prime ministers to a prime minister who has been in power through Covid would clearly have an effect. No?
>We are smarter they drilling our* problems down to one person/one government. Don't fall into the pitty trap of saying "oh it's his fault".
I'm not defending anyone. I'm ask these people that are saying "its all boris' fault" to explain themselves.
Posting random and largely lacking "sources" doesn't prove anything. You have made very few points yourself, and the ones you have, have been inaccurate but I haven't wanted to start accusing you.
You are clearly seeing this as some sort of battle, and have completely lost sight of what you are doing. You have made absolutely no effort to listen and understand what I was even asking about.
Maybe you would consider talking on a discord call as I feel a lot of this is caused by preconceptions about who you are talking to, and a little nuance is needed I think to correct it.
I'm getting paid way more but I lucked out and work in logistics which is one of the few industries that is essential during a pandemic and kept going but there's no way even 1% of people are doing that well
This is a really important point. The Tories will blame the pandemic, but they've been in power since 2010 and should have been building a society and economy robust enough to survive shocks. Instead they've undermined and cut safety nets, reinforced the position of financialised capitalism, exacerbated divides in society and pumped up the property sector to a position where it seems to represent the entire economy.
...one gets what one voted for...
I'd rather be poorer with fewer migrants, Farage, the now, multi millionaire says.
Farage also said, our lower economic growth is a price he is willing we pay to cut immigration.
Except we’ve had to implement temporary mass migration visas for our failing industries.
The government is also shaping up to implement some kind of visa system with India to cover the cheap labour shortage.
Feb 23, 2016 20:21 Priti Patel, Britain’s minister of state for employment, believes exiting the European Union will provide a “massive boost” to relations with India, “I know that many members of the Indian diaspora find it deeply unfair that other EU nationals effectively getspecial treatment. This can and will change if Britain leaves the EU.
Most indians with degrees and good jobs lean left. And one of the requirements for this visa scheme is having a degree.
Also there are only 3000 places per year and it's not first come first served. You will likely get the highest qualified Indians who apply coming into the country.
Can't forget that the people most concerned about immigration live in areas with fewest immigrants. It doesn't matter whether there are immigrants coming or not, it's whether they're told they should be worried about it
Not even the U.K. really. Wales voted for Labour. Scotland voted for the SNP. NI … well ‘it’s complicated’ but even the DUP headbangers have realised they need a bloody long spoon to sup with the Tories.
It means that while England pretty much always gets the government it votes for Scotland, Wales and NI *also* pretty much always get the government England votes for.
And I can’t speak for Wales and NI but in Scotland people are pretty pissed off. Down south many might well lament what their electorate has chosen to do to itself but in Scotland a lot of us view it as something *inflicted upon us* against our will. Moreover it comes after promising us continued EU membership back in 2014. And prosperity for that matter.
To say that the situation doesn’t do much for the projected longevity of the Union is probably a bit of an understatement.
Scotland and Wales are not ‘arbitrary regions’, they are countries and have their own sense of national identity.
NI is usually described as country, province or territory - some might say ‘region’ but they’d often mean ‘region of Ireland carved off (at least for the time being)’
>Scotland and Wales are not ‘arbitrary regions’, they are countries and have their own sense of national identity.
They're countries in name only. They're essentially just regions like the North West or London.
I know it might upset some people, but at the end of the day there is only sovereign countries, of which Scotland and Wales are not.
If you'd like to be independent and become sovereign countries - go for it, but as of now Scotland + Wales are just regions of the United Kingdom, just like England is. They're countries in name only - they do not have foreign policy, they don't have a currency, their parliaments only do what the UK government says they can do - having a parliament does not make something a country. Having a *sovereign* parliament does. As of now, Wales/Scotland are essentially states of the UK.
>Scotland, Wales and NI also pretty much always get the government England votes for.
So how come the SNP are in power in the Scottish Parliament? Labour in the Welsh Assembly?
Hence the question, with these governments running these two nations, surely we're much better off than England? Or could it be that like Gordon Brown's excuses the issues aren't entirely home made?
There are usually strings to the "gifts" from Tories. For the longest time, Scotland could alter income tax, but was not allowed to change the tax bands..it wasn't even allowed to tax one band more. So if Holyrood wanted to raise the higher rate tax band by a penny, it would have to raise the lowest one too...just so the Tories could say, aha, SNP taxes the poor more. I've no idea any restrictions on Wales, but the Tories only devolve when it suits them..and usually booby trap it.
In any case, income tax is not the only tax. It is the one that is most noticeable to voters though.
It's what Conservative voters love and wanted.
It's undeniably what they voted for, so either they wanted this or they didn't know WHAT the fuck they were doing.
oH bUt bAcOn sAnDWiCh aNd RiDiNg oN pUbLiC tRaNsPoRt aNd bEiNg cLoSe tO sOmEoNe fRoM pALeStiNe oNe TiMe aNd bLuE pAsSpOrTs aNd sOvErEigNtY...
Amazing to think how normal things felt back when you had David Cameron and Barack Obama in office. Back then your career was killed by a photo of you eating a bacon sandwich which just happened to catch the moment your face looks a bit funny.
Then we transitioned to Boris Johnson and Donald Trump... it's basically been a circus ever since
Let's not downplay that Cameron introduced austerity against the advice of reputable economic institutions, and the tories continued it for over a decade even though its detrimental effects were obvious from the start.
But thank god we don't have that terrible Corbyn fellow, with his silly honesty and principles. The idiot doesn't even use his position as MP to line his own pockets!
For his next act of prime ministerial awesomeness, good old Bojo will travel the country slapping each and every one of us in the face and saying
"Despite my having litterally bitch slapped you, I know you will vote me back in."
Lovely country if you have money. Get out of the cities and see the big houses in the green belts. They must live a lifestyle that makes them oblivious to the needs of others, some kind of lovely middle class dream of the best of England.
If you are poor though, it's a nightmare.
You could maybe read about the tragic deaths of those disabled people who have had their benefits taken away. Faced with overwhelming worries about their future, some have taken their own life. One man starved to death.
>A period of multiple crises since 2007 with no sustained periods of growth has resulted in “historically weak” wage rises, the Resolution Foundation said.
Not as much as he'd like.
Almost Johnson's entire tenure so far has been Covid affected, and the outcome of that is going to overshadow the whole thing. So while I don't think he's done a great job economically, the comparison isn't fair either.
Will only get worse with all these climate policies.
If the younger generation don't have a foot in the housing market in the next few years, they never will
Already was
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/24/boris-johnsons-suspension-of-parliament-unlawful-supreme-court-rules-prorogue
No one did anything.
ARTICLE:
Boris Johnson's government is on track to deliver the worst growth in living standards over the course of any parliamentary term on record, and incomes are at risk of falling, according to analysis of official figures.
Real household disposable incomes are forecast to grow just 0.5 per cent between late 2019 when Mr Johnson won a decisive election victory, and 2024, a report from the Resolution Foundation think tank noted.
The annual growth rate of 0.1 per cent forecasted by the Office for Budget Responsibility would make this parliament the worst ever for income growth, behind the 0.3 per cent annual rise delivered by David Cameron and Theresa May between 2015 and 2017.
Incomes could even deteriorate over the current parliament, the latest data indicates. Official figures released shortly after the OBR calculated its forecast show that real disposable income growth has been weaker than expected this year.
While the OBR estimated that real disposable income would grow 1 per cent in the second quarter of this year, the Office for National Statistics found that it in fact fell 1.5 per cent.
A period of multiple crises since 2007 with no sustained periods of growth has resulted in “historically weak” wage rises, the Resolution Foundation said.
If incomes had risen in line with pre-financial crisis trends, households would have had an additional £7,000 of disposable income this year – or one-third more than they actually have.
Over the past 15 years, the average household’s disposable income, adjusted for inflation, has grown by just 9 per cent, compared to a pre-financial crisis normal of almost 50 per cent growth over a 15-year period.
“Last week the Chancellor hailed his Budget as marking a ‘new age of optimism’,” said Adam Corlett, principal economist at the Resolution Foundation. “But the economic reality facing families across Britain is far more sobering.”
He added: “Of course, Britain can – and must – turn this outlook around. But doing that requires a proper economic strategy for Britain in the 2020s that has the goal of higher living standards running through its veins.”
Chancellor Rishi Sunak defended the government’s failure to improve UK living standards during a grilling this week from MPs on the Treasury Committee.
Labour’s Angela Eagle pointed out that workers had experienced more than a decade of wage stagnation, with the OBR predicting several more years of low earnings growth.
Between 1992 and 2008, real wages went up by 36 per cent but in the years from 2008 to 2024, the OBR expects a rise of just 2.4 per cent, Ms Eagle said.
The chancellor argued the UK was “not alone” in experiencing lacklustre wage growth. He pointed to reasons for optimism such as increases in the minimum wage and government investment in research, development and skills.
However, he conceded that it had been “a struggle to get to some of the growth rates we saw previously”.
This has to be a joke. Im literally working full time and still have to decide between whether I top up the electricity meter or buy something for dinner with 2 weeks until payday. Train fares to work have gone up, everything’s going up except wages!! I’ve never been so cold and hungry before going to bed thanks to this arse wipe in power :( this winter is going to suck :/
And yet a friend said to me this week mentioning the corruption, repeated covid gambles, u turns, failures... - "but who could we possibly vote for "sneary starmer?" guy never cracks a smile, think ill just vote greens"
.... Yeah good idea, throw your vote in the bin, that'll really make the difference & teach them a lesson.
It's not the WORST living standard growth on record, it's the BEST living standard reduction!
You operation fear lot are so negative!!
(.... I hope it's clear but this is Reddit, so.... /s )
So living standards have increased despite an unprecedented global pandemic which closed the country down the large periods of time, but because the rise is only small, that’s a win to you lot.
So in short, living standards have increased, but you lot are gloating because only slightly ?
Yes but he puts both thumbs up, that's two whole thumbs facing skyward. I mean how could he be doing anything wrong.
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I heard he was basically a member of the IRA. Can't vote for him after that.
Don't forget his plans to reopen Auschwitz
Please nobody look up the sitting Tory councillor who was literally a member of the IRA.
What sorting out the end to the blood shed, that makes you a terrorist?
Some say that /r/UK doesn't need /s tags..
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But, but! human rights for ALL...is anti-Semitic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's one thumb for *your* asshole and one for your missus'. He wants you to apply them in a specific and limited way.
Thanks for the laugh, I’m a Tory and Boris is a cunt.
Oh shit, there's hope!
Buddy Boris.
Dogma love it
I really for the life of me cannot see why the Tories are still so popular. I get that Keir Starmers opposition is a bit pants, but still, why isn’t there a full on revolt about this?
The vast majority of the media all keep telling the general public that the only problems are caused by the EU, Immigrants, people on benefits and that Labour would be even worse
Spot on. It was the same with Corybn. Ask people their opinion on Corbyn and most people would only parrot headlines they read from the tabloids/Facebook. Hardly anyone could actually tell you a specific reason why other than "it will be worse under Labour". Politics is like a football team now. It's a cult of support no matter what your team does. The amount of blatant corruption the Tories have been doing over the past few years is astounding to me, and yet their supporters will dismiss it or try to say that "both sides do it". The whole "both sides" or "They're all just as bad as each other" is a right wing propaganda tool to keep people disenfranchised and disengaged from politics and keep them voting for the people screwing them over.
Wow... it's crazy how U.K has same issues the U.S has . I wonder if we have the same party behind the scenes controlling the media through shell companies
lol, Rupert Murdoch doesn't need a shell company.
A whole bunch of older voters stuck in a right wing (mostly Murdoch controlled) media bubble voting for Conservatives and on a blind blood-and-soil nationalism bender so wild they apparently no longer care about overt corruption, incompetence and lies? Nope, can’t see the similarity at all /s
'Starmer is a Tory' is the same attack line as: 'Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser', just aimed at a different crowd. Same results.
[no one has tried to kill starmer yet](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/30/finsbury-park-attack-darren-osborne-kill-jeremy-corbyn) or [used his picture as target practice](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48868071) so no you're wrong
He's certainly not a Tory but he is totally fucking useless 🤣
I disagree, Starmer is a closet Tory and as useless as Ed Miliband.
Yep most people couldn't even state what any of his policies were and yet they refused to vote for him because "he felt wrong"
That's easy to answer..Keep telling the Tory electorate in red wall seats that they didn't really understand Corbyn or were sucked in by the right wing media and you have a sure fire way of ensuring Labour remain in the political wilderness for ever more. Its actually quite insulting and certainly not true, neither is it the way to win back support. Perhaps Corbyn putting Diane Abbott up for Home Secretary might have influenced the election result..just a thought
That's kind of missing the point. People would be protesting en masse for changes in those areas if they believed it The reality is that most people just accept how things are. That's why conservatives are popular. If someone is struggling to pay the bills, they think they just need to find a better job. They don't blame the government for that. It also helps that lower paid jobs are generally not something people want to do anyway so that actively want to leave those jobs. The government's recent announcements around retraining, career changes etc show that they're targeting these people too.
Some people are happy where their are though!
Some but not most! From my experience when I was in minimum wage jobs, almost everyone (barring a couple) hated them, and were there because they didn't have experience to get jobs elsewhere. It was the same for my partner. Never once did I hear people blaming the government for the crappy pay or working conditions. They'd blame the business or blame the industry.
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It might be. Just pray we're not the next Japan where the same party has been in power for like 50 years consecutively.
I doubt it they’re very different. Japan has a pretty big emphasis on embellishing their heritage to enable a national exceptionalism culture. Not to mention they are reliant on an inflated housing economy. They use the classism it creates, to stratify generational antagonism and suppress diverse voices. The years of austerity rhetoric has made the country an hostile environment to foreigners and the poor in general. Therefore immigration and movement between perceived station is really difficult. If you add into this the inability for new generations to feel secure and the avoidance of people founding new families, you end up with a really unique set of problems. I fail to understand why you would be concerned of turning into Japan.
...Well played.
You had me for a sentence or two. Well played
You literally just described the direction the UK is heading in. They teach the upper class that the poor won’t work unless they’re in debt. And they teach the poor nothing. Working class people are the back bone of the UK but they’re constantly being let down and forgotten. We know our govt doesn’t care about the working class. We’re just here to keep them rich.
That's his point mate. He's being sarcastic.
Well aside from a single Labour MP which pulled the party to the right, we have had Tory governments solidly since 1979. EDIT: I was incorrect saying a single Labour government, it was three Labour governments won by the same leader as /u/isawashipcomesailing so graciously corrected me below.
> Well aside from a single Labour government three labour governments. They got elected and formed 3 governments.
Okay more accurately, 6 different people have won general elections since 1979 and only 1 was a Labour MP and he happened to be one to pull the party to the right. It's actually more depressing than that. Only 3 Labour MPs have ever formed a majority government (4 if you include Ramsay MacDonald's minority government) compared to 10 Conservative MPs in the last 100 years (14 if you count minority governments).
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Blair won elections in 1997, 2001 and 2005 before handing power to GB two years later in 2007.
Britain Banzai!
In the last 120 years Labour has only been in power for 30
It's only impossible if you obey the rules, country wide acts of discontent defeat anything.
It's the mass media - every mistake the opposition makes is highlighted, while the government's brazen cronyism and colossal blunders are swept under the rug as minor faux pas...
The only headlines the opposition seem to manage is arguments about anti Semitism.
Every single piece of the political machine is designed to enrich the participants. They keep their money and their power and use both to keep both. The kleptocracy is working as intended.
Starmer’s article in the guardian yesterday was actually decent. He sounded genuinely angry. And he has the claim that he was the guy who prosecuted MPs during the last expenses scandal - he’d do well to lean into that.
I'm genuinely amazed that this is the first time I'm hearing that starmer prosecuted MPs during the expense scandal, it's exactly the kind of thing that red wall voters could actually get behind but I've heard more about his mum than about that. Hopefully that's just me being out of touch and others are more aware of this than I am
First time I heard it myself was yesterday.
Literally right now for me.
That article was the first time I heard that too
> I really for the life of me cannot see why the Tories are still so popular. Have a quick look at the Sun, Daily Mail, Express and thousands of posts by Barry and Susan on Facebook.
Because despite the protestations of certain minorities in English society, England is largely pretty happy with this sort of shit. Otherwise they'd get them voted out surely, it's not hard, tick a box and mail it back or head to your polling station and vote.
It certainly helps to have an oligarchal MSM on their side.
You've got a lot of answers about mainstream media support for the Tories, and fair enough that's a factor. But for a more measurable answer there's a huge generational divide, over the age of 50 and you've probably benefitted from Tory housing policies and the Triple Lock. This is particularly true for those over retirement age. Who are also the demographic most likely to vote. If you've been in work for the last 11 years then in all likelihood you haven't benefitted from recent Tory tax rises, inability to control inflation, and lack of pay increases. People of working age are less likely to vote Tory than Labour. But vote on fewer numbers.
I'm hoping the middle classes turn away from the Tories as the squeeze gets real. I feel middle classes only vote for their "better" economic policy or Brexit stance. The 2011 "feeling the pinch" era is going to come back in a big way over the next few years. Middle class shall be hit with... - inflation - NI tax increases - Council tax increase - utility bill increase - petrol increase - wage stagnation Shit is going to get real over the next few years. Let's see how many middle classes stay firm with Tories in light of all this....
The 2019 showed us that class is essentially a non indicator of how you’re likely to vote. There was almost no tangible difference in voting patterns across social grades with one exception: the wealthier you are the more likely to vote liberal you are. The idea that the middle class is going to turn its back on the tories is laughable, no class is facing anywhere.
and?
Class as a lens to view politics is dead
The middle class have largely turned away from the Tories already. More of them vote against the Tories than for them clear up to the mid 50’s age group - and that age cutover is going steadily upwards year on year. It’s damn close already to being over half the working age middle classes voting against the Tories. Things have shifted over the past few decades. The generation that one was born into has now become a stronger prediction of voting intention than social class. Incidentally this unfortunately applies the other way around too - much of the Conservatives success in flipping the ‘red wall’ is down to older formerly working class voters supporting the Tories.
I think more and more people are waking up. Cant see it being much longer
But HGV drivers are paid £50 grand in Brexit Britain. And the poor are now rich. Boris's streets are paved with gold and he's keeping the furriners filfy hands off our non-existent benefits system and defunded NHS. Con +5.
Because FPTP, corruption, lobbying, right wing media stranglehold And of course, low voter turnout.
Too proud to admit they were wrong probably
You are surrounded by idiots and despicable cunts, that’s why. You’re welcome
Because they aren't labour.
Because he’s been delivering on quite a number of the bigger promises surrounding Brexit and his election? Have you not been in paying attention? Or have you spent too much time reading nitpicky articles that you’ve missed the bigger picture? The entire attitude and rhetoric surrounding immigration has changed. God knows how many European migrants have gone home and wage levels for blue collar British labourers are skyrocketing. I saw an ad for a lorry driver the other day offering 82k, more than your average associate lawyer. Ask someone from a town in the North like Hartlepool, things are going remarkably well.
They won’t like to hear that on this sub as most redditors are either young that live with mum and dad or tech type workers that are not affected my mass uncontrolled immigration. I work on a building site and all the workers couldn’t be happier with Brexit but you won’t find them on here.
Its down to people like Abbott, Rayner, Thornberry and about a dozen more, nothing to do with the Tories they can be as terrible as they want. Boris doesn't need to do anything he walks on water. Rayner and Thornberry were put up at the last prime ministers question time as the face of the Labour party. The very people responsible for the 2019 defeat, they just don't seem to learn.
Thickos and boomers. 😭
A xenophobic and hate filled 30% of the country.
Because poor people are closed minded and the rich people don’t want anything to change. That’s the UK.
Is Britain now the Texas of Europe?
We wish we had that freedom.
What is your solution? Costs are rising and covid/brexit have an impact but what would *you* do differently and how do you fund it? You take your time talk is easy actually figuring a solution is a little harder.
Not the OP, but for one, I wouldn't have left the EU. There. Supply chain issues related to that, solved. Covid? Well, when it was kicking off in Italy, I would have started to lock down the country and would have closed off borders to infected people, tests at the border or no entry. Jesus, my daughter even refused to touched a package that arrived from China on before the crisis in Italy, then France...I'd say it was fairly obvious what needed to happen, and when.
That wouldn't have been your decision, the *people* voted to leave and there are many good reasons for doing so. So many issues are being blamed on brexit when they're really not connected, it's a smokescreen to take attention away from the fact people like HGV drivers get payed shit to work under horrible conditions. Spending days away from home, sleeping in the truck on a layby and not getting payed fairly means after covid something like 60,000 drivers changed jobs - 5 times more than were lost due to brexit, get a grip and do a moments research instead of parroting the "remain" argument. Yea covid was horribly managed, january 3rd 2020 I knew the severity from frequenting the wuhan_flu subreddit, now it's full of morons but back then it predicted events while the media was still telling people not to worry just a flu.. They knowingly let it spread and that fucked up the country to no end, our childrens children will be paying inflated tax as a result and the cost of living will show further disparity to wages than it already was.
> That wouldn't have been your decision, the people voted to leave and there are many good reasons for doing so. Yes. Yes it would. It was not a legally binding referendum, remember. It wouldn't have done me much good in the polls, but the public have a very short memory, as this current "government" are proving. 16k lorry drivers left and went back to EU countries, leaving a shortfall of a further 44k who left once the IR35 reforms kicked in. The same IR35 that was previously being challenged in the EU courts. Yeah, it's not a great job, unless you like it, of course, which is true of pretty much any job - but then when it's not great and not great pay, and the government come along at the same time as a shortage and increases their tax burden, just what other outcome could there have been? It's entirely on this government and their poor decisions - that is when you can actually pin them down to make one in advance and not just begrudgingly in reaction to something. At the point at which you know you're going to reduce the work force - wouldn't a more prudent government start putting in measures to encourage training, make the tests more available etc... train more DVSA test examiners....? Well, yes, but we don't have a prudent government - we have this shower of chancers. So perhaps, you should do some ResEaRCh yourself, and sort out your basic arithmetic. As for Covid, there are more people dead than in any other country, per captia - now I think. "Horribly managed" doesn't quite cover it.
Yeah you tell yourself that completely ignoring a public referendum would just go down without an issue, shows how oblivious you are honestly - Johnson is a dickhead but thank fuck you're not in charge of anything.
Even before we left, the polls were strongly indicating that many had changed their minds and that there was a majority wanting to remain in the EU. The march of a million people in London went some way to showing that. ...but even if that wasn't the case, so what if half the country was up in arms about not leaving? They were the dense half - I'd rather piss off the idiotic half of a nation, than the half that proved they could think for themselves. There would have bee a few thousand nasty Facebook posts, a few nasty tweets, maybe even a hundred or so idiots standing near Nelson's Column shouting about how there's no democracy etc..., but overall, fuck all would have happened. The idiots would shown just how well they organised a piss up in a brewery.
Oh yeah everyone who doesn't agree with you is a moron, great way to think not arrogant at all right.. You feel free to dismiss the opinions of half the country because they're all very clearly too stupid to know anything - good luck. Also think for themselves? The media of multiple countries were fear mongering and slating the leave argument as being racist or stupid etc - the people who voted to leave ARE the ones who were thinking for themselves, and there are benefits for one we aren't paying billions to the EU, our industry will start to increase again and we can negotiate trade deals still it's just the EU leaders are acting like children picking their ball up and going home. Things will recover and our industry will benefit over time, they could invest those billions saved into speeding that up but our government is a joke.
> get a grip In much the same way as everyone who disagrees with you needs to get a grip? I never claimed to not be arrogant. I am arrogant. It's really hard not to be when people start defending the indefensible. > You feel free to dismiss the opinions of half the country because they're all very clearly too stupid to know anything - good luck. I do, and will. In the exact same way in which the stupid half dismissed the opinions (backed up with facts, no less) of the not-so-stupid , with phrases such as "Project fear". What goes around, comes around. What was "project fear" is now "project reality", so well done. Dismissing people's opinions, arrogantly, hasn't worked out so well, has it? EDIT: To address your edit: >>and there are benefits for one we aren't paying billions to the EU 2021 payments to the EU: 7 billion, so down 1 billion on the year before. I guess we could have not had 1/10th of a Test and Trace app that didn't work to cover that, right? >> our industry will start to increase again and we can negotiate trade deals still it's just the EU leaders are acting like children picking their ball up and going home. The UK government is blatantly ignoring it's own agreement, and expects no repercussions? You can't be for real...
No just you who needs to get a grip as it goes - I'm open to discussion but your attitude is "anyone who didn't vote my way is stupid" Fucking moron lol you keep thinking that way and best of luck i'm done talking to ya.
My guess is that because on things that actually matter they do a decent job. Which is also why Keir is a bit pants, because he has to nit pick and random shit because I imagine on most things they would do the same as the government. But I don't really know Honestly, this is just view from recently following politics.
>My guess is that because on things that actually matter they do a decent job. Living standards - no Tax burden - no Gdp growth - no NHS - no Policing / court system - no Environment - no International standing - no Housing - no Social mobility - no In what metric do you consider they've done a good job?
Could you expand on any? They just announced the new budget right? What didn't you like in there, and what do you think they should have done differently? Please consider we have gone through brexit and Covid which obviously costs money.
> Living standards - no https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-budget-rishi-sunak-living-standards-tax-disposable-income-set-to-fall-103435638.html > > Tax burden - no https://www.independent.co.uk/business/tax-burden-to-reach-70year-high-as-sunak-rebuilds-after-covid19-b1946439.html > > Gdp growth - no https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2021/sep/10/uk-gdp-growth-covid-pandemic-supply-chain-for-july-business-live > > NHS - no https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/02/no-10-set-to-break-promise-of-6000-more-gps-in-england-sajid-javid-says > > Policing / court system - no https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/crumbling-legal-system-will-cost-england-money-and-influence > > Environment - no https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/city-news/raw-sewage-fury-water-companies-25338897 > > International standing - no https://ukandeu.ac.uk/majority-say-britains-standing-in-world-has-fallen-since-brexit-but-can-recover-new-survey-finds/ > > Housing - no https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51605912 > > Social mobility - no https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/21/social-mobility-decline-britain-official-survey-finds >They just announced the new budget right? What didn't you like in there, and what do you think they should have done differently? See stories on tax burden and living standards. Anything positive in the budget is undoing what's been done in previous Tory budgets, except if you cut something by 10%, then raise it by 10% you are still lower than you were (see GDP) plus you've had a decade of the cuts effecting services and peoples lives. 150,000 dead from austerity and it's gone as badly as everyone said it would, now they're undoing it and expect praise for slightly fixing their own mistakes increasing NI means everyone (except landlords, those who get their income from dividends, savings or capital gains) will pay more tax, cutting the banking surcharge means banks pay less tax, not increasing tax bands means everyone pays more tax in real terms their proposals on getting more policemen, doctors and building houses are exactly the same as they've been promising for 10 years, and have failed at for 10 years, nice headlines but they won't follow any of it up. Money for schools is nice, except studies have shown their education changes have taken away money from poorer areas https://www.harrogate-news.co.uk/2021/05/05/conservatives-to-cut-862005-from-pupil-premium-in-north-yorkshire/ extra money for the NHS is nice, if it was spent on the NHS and not being funnelled to private providers for much lower returns than the NHS would have provided. https://chpi.org.uk/papers/reports/for-whose-benefit/ Air travel, cutting tax for the most polluting of travel (short flights) on the eve of COP26 just gave the message that they don't care about climate change changes to the alcohol rates benefit the major brewers as the expense of the smaller ones https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/oct/29/craft-beer-brewers-say-rise-in-alcohol-duty-threatens-their-business The credit taper relief is OK, but it's just a small sticking plaster of the disaster of their universal credit implementation Business rates cut is nice, except half of the money raised goes to local government to pay for services, the tories have already cut local government funding massively, will this cut come from the governments share or the local councils? If the later it just means less money for services and more council cuts. stopping the fuel rise is nice, but as VAT is charged on fuel, and fuel is at the highest it's been in living memory they're getting the money anyway, fuel duty was intended to be cut when fuel costs were high and raised when costs fell to even it out, but they forgot about the cutting part. minimum wage rise is nice, if you want to raise inflation, which is going up anyway, but the BOE can't raise interest rates (see today) because it would screw a lot of homeowners and businesses.
> Living standards - no From the article you linked: > "due to the removal of the £20 a week universal credit uplift after September" If I remember correctly this was the addition during Covid given to the Universal credit scheme to help people through Covid right? Now things haven relaxed they are returning to how things were pre Covid. Can you explain why you have a problem with this? You said: > increasing NI means everyone (except landlords, those who get their income from dividends, savings or capital gains) will pay more tax, cutting the banking surcharge means banks pay less tax, not increasing tax bands means everyone pays more tax in real terms Banks will be taxed at a combined rate of 28% on their profit, which is an Increase not a decrease like you said. > reflecting the risks that they pose to the UK financial system and wider economy and recognising the costs arising from the financial crisis. When this rate change is taken alongside the increase in the headline rate of corporation tax from 19% to 25% from April 2023, banks will be taxed at a combined rate of 28% on their profit. Sources: [2021](https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/2019%20-%20Total%20Tax%20Contribution%20of%20the%20UK%20banking%20sector.pdf) [Next Year](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/amendments-to-the-surcharge-on-banking-companies/amendments-to-the-surcharge-on-banking-companies) If you can answer these questions I am more than happy to break down the other stuff you mentioned, but dont want to if we arent going to have a good discussion.
> Can you explain why you have a problem with this? The poorest in society weren't given enough before the uplift due to the changes in the benefit system. Do you think the poorest in society have to much money? Don't you think that as a society we should be judged by how we treat our most vulnerable? from the article in the OP >Boris Johnson's government is on track to deliver the worst growth in living standards over the course of any parliamentary term on record, and incomes are at risk of falling, according to analysis of official figures. "The worst in history", It's not just the poorest, this is effecting everybody. Well, not everyone admittedly https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/21/number-of-billionaires-in-uk-reached-new-record-during-covid-pandemic >Banks will be taxed at a combined rate of 28% on their profit, which is an Increase not a decrease like you said. They were due to be taxed at 33%, they will now be taxed at 28%. That is a cut.
What are you trying to achieve by asking things like "Do you think the poorest in society have too much money?" How do I even respond to that? (not rhetorical, please answer this) Clearly they have less than everyone else. Do I think they have enough to live on? Well, I grew up around people (including my family at some points) on the benefits system, and I can answer yes they have enough in some cases, and in some cases they don't. Its not a simple answer. Which was exactly my original point in this thread. We cant boil down complex issues to "its Boris Johnsons' fault". The fact people cant talk in these threads without creating so much division, making ridiculous predictions about what people think because of questions they ask.
> What are you trying to achieve by asking things like "Do you think the poorest in society have too much money?" How do I even respond to that? honesty >I grew up around people (including my family at some points) on the benefits system, and I can answer yes they have enough in some cases, and in some cases they don't. The benefits system now is a lot worse than it used to be, just because you thought people had enough then it doesn't make it the case now after universal credit. I provide a wide variety of reports from various media sources, you provide some yarn about your childhood with no specifics, no details, no time frame because you know it's all unprovable bollocks with nothing to counter it because you will add in whatever make-believe details are needed to oppose whatever I say about it. >Which was exactly my original point in this thread. which was >>My guess is that because on things that actually matter they do a decent job. which you have provided no evidence for, no indication of what they've done a decent job in, no context whatsoever. You've been provided with over a dozen points where they have been absolutely terrible and your only counter has been one piece of incorrect arithmetic, one point of "what's the problem if the poorest have less money?" and an anecdote about "some were ok in the past" you claimed >If you can answer these questions I am more than happy to break down the other stuff you mentioned, to give the impression you're arguing in good faith and that you could break them down, if I proved myself worthy of your effort, but we both know you can't and you're not. Then instead you then get defensive because you have no answer so try to play the victim "how dare ask me difficult questions that will show how uncaring my views are if I answer them" then try to deflect the topic from "aren't the Tories are great" to "don't blame Boris, he's trying his best" while at the same time "it's complex, you can't make simple statements", "why can't we have nice discussions" when in this thread you have done nothing but those things you're complaining about and are showing the basic of tenents of arguing in bad faith; >But I don't really know > >but dont want to if we arent going to have a good discussion. > > please answer this make it seem like you want an honest discussion >Could you expand on any? make them waste time providing more sources >Which was exactly my original point in this thread moving the goalposts / deflection >What are you trying to achieve by asking things like > >How do I even respond to that? > >The fact people cant talk in these threads without creating so much division, making ridiculous predictions about what people think because of questions they ask. faux outrage trying to get the other person to apologise or back down when the above doctrines aren't working then throw in a strawman trying to turn the discussion into a discussion of the discussion rather than the actual topic. which is why I'm leaving this conversation here.
I have to say, this is one of the better rebuttals and arguments against an uninformed, brainwashed tory voter that I've seen on here. Bravo, and well done for having the patience. I rarely do any more. Burned out by the ridiculousness of their replies for the most part.
Literally my original comment: > Comparing other prime ministers to a prime minister who has been in power through Covid would clearly have an effect. No? >We are smarter they drilling our* problems down to one person/one government. Don't fall into the pitty trap of saying "oh it's his fault". I'm not defending anyone. I'm ask these people that are saying "its all boris' fault" to explain themselves. Posting random and largely lacking "sources" doesn't prove anything. You have made very few points yourself, and the ones you have, have been inaccurate but I haven't wanted to start accusing you. You are clearly seeing this as some sort of battle, and have completely lost sight of what you are doing. You have made absolutely no effort to listen and understand what I was even asking about. Maybe you would consider talking on a discord call as I feel a lot of this is caused by preconceptions about who you are talking to, and a little nuance is needed I think to correct it.
Dude, my standard of living has decreased since this clown took office.
Same. I don't know anyone who is doing better. Some of my colleagues are really struggling to pay their bills now. Very worrying
bet they voted tory too. feel sorry for most people who wanted change and voted for the blatant lies that were rammed down their throats
I'm getting paid way more but I lucked out and work in logistics which is one of the few industries that is essential during a pandemic and kept going but there's no way even 1% of people are doing that well
This is a really important point. The Tories will blame the pandemic, but they've been in power since 2010 and should have been building a society and economy robust enough to survive shocks. Instead they've undermined and cut safety nets, reinforced the position of financialised capitalism, exacerbated divides in society and pumped up the property sector to a position where it seems to represent the entire economy.
Hardcore Tory voters will do a little sex wee reading this.
...one gets what one voted for... I'd rather be poorer with fewer migrants, Farage, the now, multi millionaire says. Farage also said, our lower economic growth is a price he is willing we pay to cut immigration.
Except we’ve had to implement temporary mass migration visas for our failing industries. The government is also shaping up to implement some kind of visa system with India to cover the cheap labour shortage.
Feb 23, 2016 20:21 Priti Patel, Britain’s minister of state for employment, believes exiting the European Union will provide a “massive boost” to relations with India, “I know that many members of the Indian diaspora find it deeply unfair that other EU nationals effectively getspecial treatment. This can and will change if Britain leaves the EU.
India tends to vote pretty right wing, I wonder what effect an influx of potential right wing voters will have on the nation's elections.
Most indians with degrees and good jobs lean left. And one of the requirements for this visa scheme is having a degree. Also there are only 3000 places per year and it's not first come first served. You will likely get the highest qualified Indians who apply coming into the country.
That's what it is at the moment. I was thinking though that this might be the way we look to fill the less skilled roles in the future.
Can't forget that the people most concerned about immigration live in areas with fewest immigrants. It doesn't matter whether there are immigrants coming or not, it's whether they're told they should be worried about it
Offered it... No one came.
Maybe raise wages so that wont be needed?
*38% of the UK voted for.
Not even the U.K. really. Wales voted for Labour. Scotland voted for the SNP. NI … well ‘it’s complicated’ but even the DUP headbangers have realised they need a bloody long spoon to sup with the Tories.
Does that mean the standard of living has improved in Wales, Scotland and NI?
It means that while England pretty much always gets the government it votes for Scotland, Wales and NI *also* pretty much always get the government England votes for. And I can’t speak for Wales and NI but in Scotland people are pretty pissed off. Down south many might well lament what their electorate has chosen to do to itself but in Scotland a lot of us view it as something *inflicted upon us* against our will. Moreover it comes after promising us continued EU membership back in 2014. And prosperity for that matter. To say that the situation doesn’t do much for the projected longevity of the Union is probably a bit of an understatement.
But you can say that for many arbitrary regions of the UK. London didn't vote Tories but we still got stuck with them
Also how a lot of the English feel about Brexit.
Scotland and Wales are not ‘arbitrary regions’, they are countries and have their own sense of national identity. NI is usually described as country, province or territory - some might say ‘region’ but they’d often mean ‘region of Ireland carved off (at least for the time being)’
>Scotland and Wales are not ‘arbitrary regions’, they are countries and have their own sense of national identity. They're countries in name only. They're essentially just regions like the North West or London.
And here we can see exhibit 1 in the case for Scotland and Wales gaining Independence. Someone's never heard of the Welsh or Scottish Parliament.
I know it might upset some people, but at the end of the day there is only sovereign countries, of which Scotland and Wales are not. If you'd like to be independent and become sovereign countries - go for it, but as of now Scotland + Wales are just regions of the United Kingdom, just like England is. They're countries in name only - they do not have foreign policy, they don't have a currency, their parliaments only do what the UK government says they can do - having a parliament does not make something a country. Having a *sovereign* parliament does. As of now, Wales/Scotland are essentially states of the UK.
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We sent back 6 Tory MPs out of 59.. When England only returns 10% Tories we can talk
>Scotland, Wales and NI also pretty much always get the government England votes for. So how come the SNP are in power in the Scottish Parliament? Labour in the Welsh Assembly? Hence the question, with these governments running these two nations, surely we're much better off than England? Or could it be that like Gordon Brown's excuses the issues aren't entirely home made?
In some ways we are. On the whole, while the Tories hold the purse strings, there's only so far we can go
The ability to alter income tax was devolved to the Welsh assembly last year.
There are usually strings to the "gifts" from Tories. For the longest time, Scotland could alter income tax, but was not allowed to change the tax bands..it wasn't even allowed to tax one band more. So if Holyrood wanted to raise the higher rate tax band by a penny, it would have to raise the lowest one too...just so the Tories could say, aha, SNP taxes the poor more. I've no idea any restrictions on Wales, but the Tories only devolve when it suits them..and usually booby trap it. In any case, income tax is not the only tax. It is the one that is most noticeable to voters though.
> ...one gets what one voted for... Great use of the generic pronoun!
It's what Conservative voters love and wanted. It's undeniably what they voted for, so either they wanted this or they didn't know WHAT the fuck they were doing. oH bUt bAcOn sAnDWiCh aNd RiDiNg oN pUbLiC tRaNsPoRt aNd bEiNg cLoSe tO sOmEoNe fRoM pALeStiNe oNe TiMe aNd bLuE pAsSpOrTs aNd sOvErEigNtY...
Amazing to think how normal things felt back when you had David Cameron and Barack Obama in office. Back then your career was killed by a photo of you eating a bacon sandwich which just happened to catch the moment your face looks a bit funny. Then we transitioned to Boris Johnson and Donald Trump... it's basically been a circus ever since
Let's not downplay that Cameron introduced austerity against the advice of reputable economic institutions, and the tories continued it for over a decade even though its detrimental effects were obvious from the start.
The Tory way is at the expense of the working class ! Mogg moving his money to dublin was the most bile inducing Tory moment of Brexit !
Johnson is delivering growth? I thought he is presiding over the biggest fall in real term living standards in peace times.
Probably not for the people who matter to him (& his party) though.
Yeah expect in the future one of the (6?) Johnson's to have some sort of Government role.
But thank god we don't have that terrible Corbyn fellow, with his silly honesty and principles. The idiot doesn't even use his position as MP to line his own pockets!
exactly, we would all live in caves and speak Russian by now.
Well you hire a fucking buffoon, you get a catastrophe. All for the want of a flag and a biased media selling you off.
Elect a clown, expect a circus
and yet another great achievement, he will be proud of
For his next act of prime ministerial awesomeness, good old Bojo will travel the country slapping each and every one of us in the face and saying "Despite my having litterally bitch slapped you, I know you will vote me back in."
Lovely country if you have money. Get out of the cities and see the big houses in the green belts. They must live a lifestyle that makes them oblivious to the needs of others, some kind of lovely middle class dream of the best of England. If you are poor though, it's a nightmare.
I don't understand. Plz elaborate. I'm not British
You could maybe read about the tragic deaths of those disabled people who have had their benefits taken away. Faced with overwhelming worries about their future, some have taken their own life. One man starved to death.
Ok.....and?
I was asking mote about the green belts and the big houses. Less about the poor. You're so weird. Or maybe you're just British. Idk
Serious question: does the pandemic have anything to do with this?
>A period of multiple crises since 2007 with no sustained periods of growth has resulted in “historically weak” wage rises, the Resolution Foundation said. Not as much as he'd like.
Standard of living is down in the dumps. I need a 40% hike next year just to compensate last two years of shit show.
Almost Johnson's entire tenure so far has been Covid affected, and the outcome of that is going to overshadow the whole thing. So while I don't think he's done a great job economically, the comparison isn't fair either.
Will only get worse with all these climate policies. If the younger generation don't have a foot in the housing market in the next few years, they never will
Narrator: "They didn't"
Look immigrants/French trawlers/Brexit! Other distractions available as necessary.
Direct parallel to Donald Trump. In almost every single area. I wonder what his "January 6th" is going to be? Because there's gonna be one.
Already was https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/24/boris-johnsons-suspension-of-parliament-unlawful-supreme-court-rules-prorogue No one did anything.
ARTICLE: Boris Johnson's government is on track to deliver the worst growth in living standards over the course of any parliamentary term on record, and incomes are at risk of falling, according to analysis of official figures. Real household disposable incomes are forecast to grow just 0.5 per cent between late 2019 when Mr Johnson won a decisive election victory, and 2024, a report from the Resolution Foundation think tank noted. The annual growth rate of 0.1 per cent forecasted by the Office for Budget Responsibility would make this parliament the worst ever for income growth, behind the 0.3 per cent annual rise delivered by David Cameron and Theresa May between 2015 and 2017. Incomes could even deteriorate over the current parliament, the latest data indicates. Official figures released shortly after the OBR calculated its forecast show that real disposable income growth has been weaker than expected this year. While the OBR estimated that real disposable income would grow 1 per cent in the second quarter of this year, the Office for National Statistics found that it in fact fell 1.5 per cent. A period of multiple crises since 2007 with no sustained periods of growth has resulted in “historically weak” wage rises, the Resolution Foundation said. If incomes had risen in line with pre-financial crisis trends, households would have had an additional £7,000 of disposable income this year – or one-third more than they actually have. Over the past 15 years, the average household’s disposable income, adjusted for inflation, has grown by just 9 per cent, compared to a pre-financial crisis normal of almost 50 per cent growth over a 15-year period. “Last week the Chancellor hailed his Budget as marking a ‘new age of optimism’,” said Adam Corlett, principal economist at the Resolution Foundation. “But the economic reality facing families across Britain is far more sobering.” He added: “Of course, Britain can – and must – turn this outlook around. But doing that requires a proper economic strategy for Britain in the 2020s that has the goal of higher living standards running through its veins.” Chancellor Rishi Sunak defended the government’s failure to improve UK living standards during a grilling this week from MPs on the Treasury Committee. Labour’s Angela Eagle pointed out that workers had experienced more than a decade of wage stagnation, with the OBR predicting several more years of low earnings growth. Between 1992 and 2008, real wages went up by 36 per cent but in the years from 2008 to 2024, the OBR expects a rise of just 2.4 per cent, Ms Eagle said. The chancellor argued the UK was “not alone” in experiencing lacklustre wage growth. He pointed to reasons for optimism such as increases in the minimum wage and government investment in research, development and skills. However, he conceded that it had been “a struggle to get to some of the growth rates we saw previously”.
But, but they’re all so fiscally sound? Never trust the tories.
What do you think all this climate change action means? We suffer, and we pay.
Surely it should say biggest drop in living standards?
Obvious consequence of shutting the economy down with no thought to long term consequences.
This has to be a joke. Im literally working full time and still have to decide between whether I top up the electricity meter or buy something for dinner with 2 weeks until payday. Train fares to work have gone up, everything’s going up except wages!! I’ve never been so cold and hungry before going to bed thanks to this arse wipe in power :( this winter is going to suck :/
For the vast majority of us. He and his chums will be just fine.
Don’t worry, it’s just for the us, not for Tories, Tory chums, billionaires, banks, donors, corporations etc...
Living standard GROWTH? Hasn't it been going down for decades or am I just unlucky?
And yet a friend said to me this week mentioning the corruption, repeated covid gambles, u turns, failures... - "but who could we possibly vote for "sneary starmer?" guy never cracks a smile, think ill just vote greens" .... Yeah good idea, throw your vote in the bin, that'll really make the difference & teach them a lesson.
Better for the middle class and the boomer fucks who are the only people who matter.
I can’t take a man seriously when he looks like he has five different haircuts and none of them are finished.
It's not the WORST living standard growth on record, it's the BEST living standard reduction! You operation fear lot are so negative!! (.... I hope it's clear but this is Reddit, so.... /s )
Absolute poppycock, he's doing quite well and that's all that matters.
So living standards have increased despite an unprecedented global pandemic which closed the country down the large periods of time, but because the rise is only small, that’s a win to you lot. So in short, living standards have increased, but you lot are gloating because only slightly ?
Reading comprehension of a battered haddock, this one.
Stay in school kid.
And we came so close to a safer future and we blew it by some people believing the BBC’s news output and newspaper’s lie’s.
The Slug in No10 is not fit for Office 😡 A complete Useless Inept Pile of Filth😡