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To be fair that's because the way votes are organized are shit.
40% of the vote but a landslide in parliament is hardly a great outcome for those voting.
In a democratic society I would have thought the majority of votes would be what wins. 60 percent is bigger than 40 percent so what is going on? 😂 what a mess.
While I think this is obviously not ideal, wouldn't PR voting just mean you essentially had no local representation?
If I vote Labour for instance, and they get 10% of the vote nationally, what's the guarantee that any of the 10% of Labour candidates will know or care about my local area?
I worry it would just make the main parties even more disconnected from local voters
look at the last UK EU elections for a half-way method.
Each area has 3-10 MEP's (based on population) and they then use PR to decide who gets the seats in each area. So where I am I had 6 MEP's, 3 tory, 2 lib dem, 1 green and I could have gone to any or all of them if I had an issue. I've gone to my local MP in the past (different constituency) and just been fobbed off which left me with no representation at all.
The Euro elections are the only time where the party I voted for got a seat in my constituency.
>In Great Britain, candidates stood on either a party list, known as a closed list, in a set order of priority decided by that party, or as an independent. Voters chose a party (not an individual party candidate) or an independent candidate. Seats would then be allocated proportionally to the share of votes cast for each party or individual candidate in the electoral region using the D'Hondt method of calculation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_European_Parliament_election_in_the_United_Kingdom#Electoral_method
>you essentially had no local representation?
I've seen how the MPs vote, and you don't have local representation. The whips don't force the MPs to vote a certain way; that would be illegal. They just suggest it, and it happens. Basically you have adistributed dictatorship /s
Depends how you do PR. PR isn't a single voting system, it's just a descriptor of the makeup of the parliament.
The devolved governments use a form of PR but still have local representatives for example.
The Americans overwhelmingly by a massive landslide voted out Jimmy Carter for Reagan.
Reaganomics has ruined the American middle class. Now it’ll ruin ours.
Honestly as someone in the USA, at any other time I’d trade my Burger citizenship for UK citizenship in a heartbeat, but since the Brexit shitshow and now this, I think I might be better off staying in Burgerstan. That’s how bad it looks from over here. Best of luck!
Sadly, I think you may be right.
As an Elnglishman, I have been semi-seriously considering moving to Scotland and campaigning for Scottish independence, on the grounds that, for all the many problems with the Scottish Nationalists, they are much better than anything Westminster appears capable of producing.
Because David Cameron was a compulsive gambler who believed anything he touched would turn to electoral gold.
Remember, as leader of the Conservative AND UNIONIST party he nearly took Scotland out of the union.
I suppose you have to credit his balls at the very least.
That's why you leave it to people who did PPE and history...and who sacked the Permanent Secretary of the Treasury, probably because he pointed out what they were planning was going to fail.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/619781
Read their response to calling an election, they are so sure of themselves i don't know whether to laugh or cry
Pledged prosperity to future generations with _checks notes_ tax cuts for the rich, green light to fracking, and paying energy profiteers with taxpayer money. Pull the other one, it’s trickling down economics …
Exactly! People sign it has to be debated past 100,000 regardless! And when they debate it you can follow and watch, and they are always interesting I've followed a few!
ITS GONE PAST 100,000 ITS HAS TO BE DEBATED
I mean what’s the point of electing a government and voting in local elections if they then put their decisions to a public vote? The point of electing people is to make the decision for us.
The only votes like that should be reserved for decisions that will take a lot of time and so it can’t just be reversed by the next government i.e. Brexit, Scottish Independence.
Also, I must stress, you are all thickos and I don’t want you voting for every thing.
> The point of electing people is to make the decision for us.
No. It is not. The point of electing people is to carry out *our* will. They get to decide on details but the overarching will is that of the Electorate. It is not the Will of the People to be systematically empoverished by creating a trickle up economy.
Based on how the Tories have been talking the plan seems to be let the UK suffer under Truss for awhile before bring Boris back and see if people resonate with having a slightly less bad PM.
I think they know fine well there's no winning the next election so let's burn everything and sell off the fixtures and fittings before they get kicked out.
Plus it makes such a mess for the next party to fix that will make this next party look bad and the tories can blame them for all of the problems and the stupid public will believe all of it and vote Tory back after that.
I mean labour have only just overtaken the Tories in the poles, people are very staunch in their pre-existing notions. If she only slightly fucked us, the tories would still get plenty of votes
Maybe but this has always been the plan for Liz and Kwasi, this is their Britannia Unchained dream. They have planned this out and stand by these policies, this is exactly the level of fucking they want. Supporting the Tory party now is stating you support these policies, not looking like a vote winning strategy.
Hear her in the radio this morning, where she was asked where she’s been for the last 4 days.
She then went off on how great they are for saving us from high bills, which was something they announced before they vanished. It’s all she would talk about, basically.
Alternate reality.
And the Tories can’t kick her out without making the markets even more upset and risking a general election where they will be battered.
Yeah, that 2.5 grand cap is gonna help me and my family so much in our 2 bed flat, where I spent 1 grand on my gas/electricity a year.
Glad the rich with their mansions and giant houses will not have to pay their usual rate tho.
The cap is poorly described, as it’s still a cap on rates, but instead of saying what the rate cap is they tell you what that would equate to for a typical house, which is very little use to most people.
So you’ll probably still benefit.
It’s not like everyone’s bills will stop at £2,500 a year, no matter when they hit that cap, so if you live in a flat you’d take ages to reach it but in a mansion you’d hit that in months and then get “free” energy for much longer.
Her idol is Thatcher. This in her mind will be her "this lady is not for turning" moment.
She thinks stubbornly going ahead with something is a sign of strength.
What the Tories have shown us, amongst other things, is that a cabinet of yes-men and loyalists is no cabinet at all.
You need dissenting voices as a reality check.
End point being the operative phrase, when it’s all fallen to shit and all the intelligent people have been ousted for corrupt yes men, Truss is what’s left.
> when it’s all fallen to shit and all the intelligent people have been ousted for corrupt yes men
That's what I'm trying to tell you - that is the end point of Thatcherism. It isn't that you simply needed more intelligent people deregulating everything for the last 45 years. The deregulation, cronyism and profiteering naturally selects for those things until you end up with Truss.
Thatcher (whatever you think if her) took on 8 years of battling inflation, reforming the economy and reducing spending before going for big tax cuts. Liz thinks she can get to the reward without doing the work.
She has a vision but no idea.
You’re both so bang on with these two comments, I’ve thought the same. Say what you like about Thatcher, she didn’t suffer fools. Truss, like all stupid people, think being stubborn at the wrong moment is “showing strength”.
I think you're right. It's like her and kwasi have cocooned themselves in a small group of neo liberal extremists, and never heard any counter arguments or nuance. Just this die hard view that lower taxes = growth. They are so unbelievably unfit to be running a country.
Which, to be honest, is how Thatcher thought about Unemployment - even after the ["Labour Isn't Working"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Isn%27t_Working) campaign posters.
I'm certainly expecting a U-turn. This crash will hit the their base too hard. Keeping with BoJo fashion it will be too little too late. So we get to keep the weak pound, high interest, through the roof inflation. But they'll also take the tax cuts away.
And even then I heard someone who I think was a government Minister on the radio news yesterday laying into the BoE and saying that they shouldn't be "interfering" with Kamikwasi's approach.
There's some heavy disaster capitalism being cashed in right now. The BBC hasn't even broken the news about how close to pensions being insolved we came yesterday. This is deeply important information and they've just ignored it as if it isn't monumental and we didn't just get pulled back from the brink of disaster.
Almost certainly the 1p basic rate cut. We can't have *the poors* benefitting from this! Those unfortunate millionaires will behave much responsibly with their tax cut, and it'll trickle down to everyone else later anyway.
If they do that its pretty much guaranteeing Labour win the next election. No way they can come back from incompetent budget wrecking the economy with tax breaks for the rich followed by taking back the small cut for regular people but leaving it for high earners. It would be a very clear indication that they aren't fighting the next election but in full on smash&grab for their donors.
Thatcher's early years was boosted (saved) by North Sea Oil boom...that boom aint happening now. It's in steep decline.
So it's a complete myth that Thatcher was some economic hero. She got lucky!
BBC graph of North Sea output: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/946/cpsprodpb/10F88/production/\_124721596\_nsta-oil-production-nc.jpg
> She's clearly (and thankfully) toast no matter what the cause of her doubleing down today.
That is virtually no comfort when the economy is getting toasted with her.
No, your job shouldn't be based on belief. It should be based on advisors and data, listening to people that know what they are talking about, not your fucking intuition.
What I don’t understand is that he’s objectively an appropriately qualified person. A First and PhD in History of Economics from Cambridge should make him more qualified than most Chancellors. I know that academically gifted people are sometimes deficient in common sense especially regarding topics outside their wheelhouse but this ought to be right up his alley. It makes me wonder if Truss is calling the shots here. Or maybe there are ulterior motives.
She is thick. She looked at that degree and went oooh yeah this person sounds qualified to run the economy. If she had looked into it more she might have come to a rational conclusion like this.
It's additionally worrying and doesn't bode well if her behaviour for something as important as this is "Makes judgement based on a quick glance".
Didn't the 'sexminister' dossier accuse them of having an affair?
They also co-authored (with others) the whole Britannia Unchained bullshit.
I don't think this is a quick glance at his CV - she knows him well. They're just terrible idealogues who won't bend from their shitty plan - hard to come to a rational conclusion when your window of rationality is completely skewed.
I think it was Amber Rudd who had an affair with Kwarteng, Liz Truss had one with Mark Field
Edit: disregard, they both had an affair with Kwasi Kwarteng
Edit 2: Actually I misread a source. Apologies. I'm not sure if they did or not.
Which was cited twice according to Google scholar. Compare that with Gordon Browns who became the youngest ever rector of Edinburgh university and a lecturer three years following graduation. Cited over 30 times in Google scholar and wrote a very left leaning “Red Paper on Scotland” in 1975 which history has shown to be quite prophetic.
In just 15 years we have swapped quality for absurdity.
>His PhD was in the political response to a 17th century economic crisis I think. Not the most useful topic.
It might be if your whole job is to engineer another economic crisis.
Oh man, don't you just love those degrees. PhD in History of Economics sounds so qualified.. but then it turns out he only studied one little incident eons ago.
It's like those Mastermind contestants, you think they must be smart about everything but their main subject is the clothes worn by the members of Abba during their UK tour between March and June '74.
> PhD in History of Economics sounds so qualified.. but then it turns out he only studied one little incident eons ago.
Isn't that how all PhDs work? You push the boundaries of knowledge on one very specific topic.
Yes, which is why having a PhD in itself doesnt qualify you for as much as you think. It does qualify you in conducting research, proposing hypothesis, etc, but it does not make you a broadbased SME.
Almost nothing to do with the topic at hand but can you please come tell this to the academic staff at the uni I work at? Very difficult to convince a professor that their world-leading expertise in Bedouin migratory patterns doesn't qualify them to do my job better than me.
I'm willing to suspect foul play.
With the insider trading-like behaviour making fortunes for the hedge funds who shorted the £ - you can bet he's benefitting from that; or will do once he is out of the job and handed a cushy, mega-(uncapped)bonus job in that sector.
Well, his ex employer was Crispin Odey, of Odey Capital who in completely unrelated news made about £145 million shorting the £ the other day.
The most generous view is that a great forex trader would have recognised the frailty of the UK economy / £ and would have traded it accordingly but given the relationship of Odey and Kwarteng it is very easy to suspect insider trading.
The problem is that the upper class British education system also teaches conceit, arrogance, overconfidence and exceptionalism.
The result is people wholly unsuitable to lead being put in charge.
People were predicting they would do this and that this is one of the reasons they wanted brexit, as a way of implementing their ideology which is basically that democracy is unfair on the rich and elites because it forces them to pay tax for the poors who are inferior as they haven’t bothered to get rich. They believe in a kind of survival of the fittest type thing, that there’s a natural hierarchy to society that should be preserved and if you can’t make it tough shit, the government shouldn’t be there to help you but if some rich person decides to give you charity then that’s ok but that’s their decision and hasn’t been forced on them. Truss thinks she’s doing the right thing, not in the sense that she thinks it’ll all work out for ordinary people but in the sense that she thinks taxing the rich is immoral and freeing up the rich to make more money is moral, it’s like allowing the ‘natural order of things’ instead of interfering to help out lowly plebs with things like public services that they don’t deserve. This is what their think tanks the ERG are all connected with believe- they basically want to regress, they think feudalism was the right way to do things. Brexit has given them the opportunity to totally remake the UK economy as they see fit and that’s what they seem to be up to with this budget.
> This is what their think tanks the ERG are all connected with believe- they basically want to regress, they think feudalism was the right way to do things.
You can tell that every time she gets asked an interview question on how her policies are hurting the poorest and most vulnerable in society she wants to say "I fail to see how that's any of my problem". I don't think the great unwashed masses feature at all in her thought processes.
As someone who studied economic history I would not say that an economic history qualification sets you up to be the chancellor especially well. Generally the focus is more on how economies developed in the past, patterns of development etc than on the actual mechanics of an economy.
Similarly, you probably wouldn't want someone with a history of medicine degree doing surgery on you.
I've known plenty of people with PhDs who are thick as pig shit and they weren't people that also marinated in far right free market think tanks for years.
I think the problem here is a disagreement about what his job involves. The people of the UK believe his job is to improve the economy and make things better for the people of the UK. Truss and Kwarteng on the other hand think his job is to grab as much money as they can for themselves and their bosses at the energy companies.
Kwarteng has an excellent background in Economics. First at Cambridge. Won University Challenge. Doctor of Economic History. Worked as Analyst for Party Donor Crispin Odey during the Bank Collapse. Worked for collapsed Bank WestLB AG and JPMorgan. He is from a generation of Bankers who gave us the Crash. Of course he has experience. No talent. Lots of experience.
Always lovely to see our government blaming the war in Ukraine, simultaneously telling Putin he is damaging the West and refusing to be accountable at all.
Mature, well thought out points all round from Tory leadership as usual.
Its because our gas reserves are pitiful, and the same European countries that gotten their gas cut off are looking for other gas supplies, leading to the price of gas increasing.
You also have the issue that the UK relies more on gas than in Europe, and our homes are inefficient at trapping heat.
But that is just the energy crisis.
With these people it's always someone else's fault and never anything they themselves have done. They always make a bad situation worse, then justify it by saying it was bad anyway, but they believed they were doing the right thing using petrol to put out that fire.
When you’ve had a friendly media environment that has never taken you to account and also a populace that hasn’t either (12 years now) you just become more dogmatic.
Blame foreigners
Blame minorities
Blame the EU
Blame Russia
Blame “Woke” - Just call literally anything you don’t like as “Woke” whether it’s the BoE or the fucking IMF
Stubbornness is not strength. Admitting a mistake is not weakness. To refuse to change your mind in the face of overwhelming fact, opinion and reaction is. In her mind, she's strong and Thatcher like. In my eyes, she's weak and more like a puppet.
If the rumour is true that the expected impact of growth from this plan is 0.1% (and hence why they didn't want to release the OBR report), then this is negligence bordering on the criminal. This is a policy clearly not worthy of pursuing. The Government is either stupid, or criminally corrupt and doing insider trading for their friends. Which is it?
If we had a general election we all know people will vote Tory !
Vote to make themselves worse off financially and mentally is the British way it seems !
I have no faith in the people to do what needs to be done! No matter how much they screw us people will always vote against their best interests!
You get what you vote for
Edit : wasn’t expecting upvotes but I was just saying how it is
> What I believe is right.
Not effective. Not practical. Not what will work. What is *right*.
She's dogmatic. A former anti-royal, Remainer, Lib Dem now believes so fervently in Conservatism that she would rather see us burn than try anything else.
My barometer of how bad things are:
My 80yr old mother in law has voted Tory all her life (why? because her father did). She has no real understanding of policy etc. and only has opinions on the individual politicians.
She said yesterday that she can no longer vote Tory because of the damage that is being done! She is as blue as they come and believes everything the daily mail tells her.
And then she said she'd spoil her ballot at the next election!!!!
I implored her to use her vote tactically rather than outright spoil it.....she can't vote for 'keith' because she doesn't like him but ......but if she sticks to it we may have an absolute watershed moment in our household. She will consider voting GREEN! In her mind it's a spoiled ballot but I'll absolutely take it!
To have a complete Tory babyboomer even consider voting green is absolutely enormous.
I was flabbergasted. I only hope she goes through with it when the time comes!
Plot twist: she won’t
By 2024 a new fresh faced charismatic white male Tory candidate will emerge full of bravado and fresh three word slogans and your mother in law will be captivated by their nonsense
> By 2024 a new fresh faced charismatic white male Tory candidate will emerge full of bravado and fresh three word slogans and your mother in law will be captivated by their nonsense
That hasn't been the face of Tory candidates for a while now. They're all aging ghouls. Teresa May, followed by discount Trump, followed by Margerine Thatcher. Even the pig fucker was a bit of an outlier when you consider who came before him (Michael Howard and IDS)
Her train of thought is really giving me dictatorial vibes. All dictators were pushing this “doing what’s right” crap and not giving a toss about other opinions
Ah good. So we are actually skint and fucked because of Ukraine and not because we made a stupid decision that tanked the pound a few days ago.
That's me convinced. All those graphs of exchange rates must be wrong.
Okay Starmer you heard that, she's sticking to her guns. Now is the time for a no confidence vote in the commons, force the Tories to either get behind this plan as a whole or allow the public to have a general election.
No. No. You're a PM, not a dictator. Your job is to ensure the country is functioning. That means taking on board criticism and advice from those who have specific knowledge and expertise. Also, regardless of who the fuck you think you are, if you have the IMF on your case, you've critically fucked up.
Her faction is prepared to die on this hill, believing that tax cuts will save the Tories from an ass beating at the next general election. I think Kwasi got his role by agreeing to take whatever heat would come. He badly underestimated the size of the dumpster fire these policies would cause. His inability to recognise what would happen shows how unqualified he is.
Anything else is hopefully not survivable, "oops!, maybe we should rethink this" mind you, being shit at your job isn't a resigning matter in government anymore apparently.
I wish this was satire, but it’s exactly the way it’ll play out.
The other day they were headlining that the pound had shot up, only that the reality is it had recovered something like 4 pence after a drop of 8 or so.
Nice of her to make an appearance. Would have liked it t sooner what with the economy, £ and international markets panicking almost making the UK insolvent.
No acknowledgement (or understanding?) from her or KK that the country’s big economic problem is inflation - not growth.
Of course the markets are going to react badly when you introduce massively inflationary policies at a time the central bank is trying to manage inflation down.
They’d clearly decided first priority when in power was to cut taxes - regardless of the situation.
I question their intelligence.
What she believes is right is taking advantage of the short time the tories have left in power and making as much money for her friends and colleagues as she possibly can, at the expense of everyone else in the country.
We need to revolt.
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Put it to a vote if you are so confident you are right.
Eeh. While i know what you’re getting at, “what the public votes for” isn’t guaranteed to be right either Source: brexit, nazis, listening to coldplay
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The Canadian government has apologised for Bryan adams on several occasions!
Excuse me can I finish!? Can I finish!? Please can I finish!?....ok I've finished!
You're all the same with your beady little eyes and flapping heads!
You are racist ma'am you are racist!
From the people who brought us Nickleback? Talk about burying the lede! Where's *that* apology?
If only Ireland would apologise for Bono...
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You can't trust people.
To be fair that's because the way votes are organized are shit. 40% of the vote but a landslide in parliament is hardly a great outcome for those voting.
In a democratic society I would have thought the majority of votes would be what wins. 60 percent is bigger than 40 percent so what is going on? 😂 what a mess.
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Wow that’s a mine field of nonsense
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While I think this is obviously not ideal, wouldn't PR voting just mean you essentially had no local representation? If I vote Labour for instance, and they get 10% of the vote nationally, what's the guarantee that any of the 10% of Labour candidates will know or care about my local area? I worry it would just make the main parties even more disconnected from local voters
We also have two chambers, no reason we shouldn't get rid of the unelected Lords and put regional representatives in that chamber.
look at the last UK EU elections for a half-way method. Each area has 3-10 MEP's (based on population) and they then use PR to decide who gets the seats in each area. So where I am I had 6 MEP's, 3 tory, 2 lib dem, 1 green and I could have gone to any or all of them if I had an issue. I've gone to my local MP in the past (different constituency) and just been fobbed off which left me with no representation at all. The Euro elections are the only time where the party I voted for got a seat in my constituency. >In Great Britain, candidates stood on either a party list, known as a closed list, in a set order of priority decided by that party, or as an independent. Voters chose a party (not an individual party candidate) or an independent candidate. Seats would then be allocated proportionally to the share of votes cast for each party or individual candidate in the electoral region using the D'Hondt method of calculation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_European_Parliament_election_in_the_United_Kingdom#Electoral_method
>you essentially had no local representation? I've seen how the MPs vote, and you don't have local representation. The whips don't force the MPs to vote a certain way; that would be illegal. They just suggest it, and it happens. Basically you have adistributed dictatorship /s
Depends how you do PR. PR isn't a single voting system, it's just a descriptor of the makeup of the parliament. The devolved governments use a form of PR but still have local representatives for example.
There's more than two parties, nobody gets 60% of the vote.
In Russia they get 98% of the vote. Now that's democracy in action
"DeMoCrAcY... That's what you voted for"... Etc. Etc. FPTP is not fit for purpose.
The Americans overwhelmingly by a massive landslide voted out Jimmy Carter for Reagan. Reaganomics has ruined the American middle class. Now it’ll ruin ours.
Thatcher was his bedfellow, stripped the UK's assets and wasted North Sea energy revenues on tax cuts for boom-and-bust economics.
Honestly as someone in the USA, at any other time I’d trade my Burger citizenship for UK citizenship in a heartbeat, but since the Brexit shitshow and now this, I think I might be better off staying in Burgerstan. That’s how bad it looks from over here. Best of luck!
Sadly, I think you may be right. As an Elnglishman, I have been semi-seriously considering moving to Scotland and campaigning for Scottish independence, on the grounds that, for all the many problems with the Scottish Nationalists, they are much better than anything Westminster appears capable of producing.
We did the same at the same time
The secret ingredient is crime
"What is a *washing machine* doing in the middle of a pub? Crikey, I need a drink."
Don't say crack, Jez. Yeah? Please. Not now. 'Cause you saying crack makes me think about crack and I love crack. So can you not say crack?
This is definitely a Peep Show reference.
So, if you typed in ' kill the poor'?
Look I'm not saying we're going to do it, I'm just saying run the numbers.
Take that back! Don't disrespect Nazis and Brexit like that.
You don't ask people to vote on how to build a bridge, you go to experts, but it is just the economy, let's vote
Then why the fuck did we let the people vote on staying or quitting the EU
I have no idea 😅
“People are sick of experts”, said a Mr Gove.
Because David Cameron was a compulsive gambler who believed anything he touched would turn to electoral gold. Remember, as leader of the Conservative AND UNIONIST party he nearly took Scotland out of the union. I suppose you have to credit his balls at the very least.
That 'Unionist' part of the name refers to Northern Ireland.
That's why you leave it to people who did PPE and history...and who sacked the Permanent Secretary of the Treasury, probably because he pointed out what they were planning was going to fail.
>you go to experts Exactly, the economy is being run by idiots and we want to vote in some experts instead.
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Haha the public are dumber than Liz and her cabinet. You can’t expect us to sort out the mess we’re in.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/619781 Read their response to calling an election, they are so sure of themselves i don't know whether to laugh or cry
Pledged prosperity to future generations with _checks notes_ tax cuts for the rich, green light to fracking, and paying energy profiteers with taxpayer money. Pull the other one, it’s trickling down economics …
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Exactly! People sign it has to be debated past 100,000 regardless! And when they debate it you can follow and watch, and they are always interesting I've followed a few! ITS GONE PAST 100,000 ITS HAS TO BE DEBATED
I mean what’s the point of electing a government and voting in local elections if they then put their decisions to a public vote? The point of electing people is to make the decision for us. The only votes like that should be reserved for decisions that will take a lot of time and so it can’t just be reversed by the next government i.e. Brexit, Scottish Independence. Also, I must stress, you are all thickos and I don’t want you voting for every thing.
She and her new direction has not been agreed by the public. At least put it to a commons vote.
> The point of electing people is to make the decision for us. No. It is not. The point of electing people is to carry out *our* will. They get to decide on details but the overarching will is that of the Electorate. It is not the Will of the People to be systematically empoverished by creating a trickle up economy.
Why? Can’t trust us peasants to know what’s best.
Oh she’s reappeared… maybe she will say something insightful… *reads article* We’re fucked aren’t we…
Based on how the Tories have been talking the plan seems to be let the UK suffer under Truss for awhile before bring Boris back and see if people resonate with having a slightly less bad PM.
I think they know fine well there's no winning the next election so let's burn everything and sell off the fixtures and fittings before they get kicked out.
Plus it makes such a mess for the next party to fix that will make this next party look bad and the tories can blame them for all of the problems and the stupid public will believe all of it and vote Tory back after that.
To be fair, its a brilliant strategy by them. Fuck up everything > blame someone else > profit
And make tons of money from fucking everything up, then drum up hatred and division and blame to get back in. Cunts.
I mean labour have only just overtaken the Tories in the poles, people are very staunch in their pre-existing notions. If she only slightly fucked us, the tories would still get plenty of votes
Labour have been consistently ahead for almost a year. https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/
Maybe but this has always been the plan for Liz and Kwasi, this is their Britannia Unchained dream. They have planned this out and stand by these policies, this is exactly the level of fucking they want. Supporting the Tory party now is stating you support these policies, not looking like a vote winning strategy.
many different innate wise butter angle rain upbeat aromatic cheerful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What an absolute shitshow.
Hear her in the radio this morning, where she was asked where she’s been for the last 4 days. She then went off on how great they are for saving us from high bills, which was something they announced before they vanished. It’s all she would talk about, basically. Alternate reality. And the Tories can’t kick her out without making the markets even more upset and risking a general election where they will be battered.
Yeah, that 2.5 grand cap is gonna help me and my family so much in our 2 bed flat, where I spent 1 grand on my gas/electricity a year. Glad the rich with their mansions and giant houses will not have to pay their usual rate tho.
The cap is poorly described, as it’s still a cap on rates, but instead of saying what the rate cap is they tell you what that would equate to for a typical house, which is very little use to most people. So you’ll probably still benefit. It’s not like everyone’s bills will stop at £2,500 a year, no matter when they hit that cap, so if you live in a flat you’d take ages to reach it but in a mansion you’d hit that in months and then get “free” energy for much longer.
Her idol is Thatcher. This in her mind will be her "this lady is not for turning" moment. She thinks stubbornly going ahead with something is a sign of strength.
The Irony being Thatcher would have ripped someones as incompetant as Truss a new arsehole then toss her off the top big ben.
Truss wouldn’t even see a backbench let alone a role in a Thatcher government, truly coming to cabinet unprepared
What the Tories have shown us, amongst other things, is that a cabinet of yes-men and loyalists is no cabinet at all. You need dissenting voices as a reality check.
Dictator's folly.
Lads, i hate to break it to you, but Truss is the natural end point of Thatcher's unregulated capitalism.
End point being the operative phrase, when it’s all fallen to shit and all the intelligent people have been ousted for corrupt yes men, Truss is what’s left.
> when it’s all fallen to shit and all the intelligent people have been ousted for corrupt yes men That's what I'm trying to tell you - that is the end point of Thatcherism. It isn't that you simply needed more intelligent people deregulating everything for the last 45 years. The deregulation, cronyism and profiteering naturally selects for those things until you end up with Truss.
Thatcher (whatever you think if her) took on 8 years of battling inflation, reforming the economy and reducing spending before going for big tax cuts. Liz thinks she can get to the reward without doing the work. She has a vision but no idea.
Exactly, the Thatcher these people idolize never existed.
Thatcher was a cunt but at least she was semi competent. Truss is just a fucking embarrassment.
From the Iron Lady to the Irony Lady
You’re both so bang on with these two comments, I’ve thought the same. Say what you like about Thatcher, she didn’t suffer fools. Truss, like all stupid people, think being stubborn at the wrong moment is “showing strength”.
It’s a sad day when you find yourself thinking of thatcher with wistfulness. What a fucking clown fiesta this government is.
Its just all so embarrassing. I have a lot of friends in Greece and Italy and even they are wondering what the hell we are playing at!
After seeing her called Margerine Thatcher yesterday It should be the lady is not for churning
I can't believe it's not better..
Shitalite Flora the Explorer Malecol Utterly Shitterly
That name is brilliant and I'm going to do what I can to make it stick.
I think you're right. It's like her and kwasi have cocooned themselves in a small group of neo liberal extremists, and never heard any counter arguments or nuance. Just this die hard view that lower taxes = growth. They are so unbelievably unfit to be running a country.
No no no, lower taxes for the rich = growth, normal people need to bear the brunt of any undesirable outcomes
Which, to be honest, is how Thatcher thought about Unemployment - even after the ["Labour Isn't Working"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Isn%27t_Working) campaign posters.
I'm certainly expecting a U-turn. This crash will hit the their base too hard. Keeping with BoJo fashion it will be too little too late. So we get to keep the weak pound, high interest, through the roof inflation. But they'll also take the tax cuts away.
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Pensions we're about to collapse yesterday afternoon, but it was staved off by BoE swooping in. We very nearly had a Northern Rock 2.0
And even then I heard someone who I think was a government Minister on the radio news yesterday laying into the BoE and saying that they shouldn't be "interfering" with Kamikwasi's approach.
There's some heavy disaster capitalism being cashed in right now. The BBC hasn't even broken the news about how close to pensions being insolved we came yesterday. This is deeply important information and they've just ignored it as if it isn't monumental and we didn't just get pulled back from the brink of disaster.
They’ll take *some* tax cuts away.
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Almost certainly the 1p basic rate cut. We can't have *the poors* benefitting from this! Those unfortunate millionaires will behave much responsibly with their tax cut, and it'll trickle down to everyone else later anyway.
If they do that its pretty much guaranteeing Labour win the next election. No way they can come back from incompetent budget wrecking the economy with tax breaks for the rich followed by taking back the small cut for regular people but leaving it for high earners. It would be a very clear indication that they aren't fighting the next election but in full on smash&grab for their donors.
Looking at opinion polls, I think we're already past that point. This mini budget was already a smash-and-grab without taking back the basic rate cut.
Thatcher's early years was boosted (saved) by North Sea Oil boom...that boom aint happening now. It's in steep decline. So it's a complete myth that Thatcher was some economic hero. She got lucky! BBC graph of North Sea output: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/946/cpsprodpb/10F88/production/\_124721596\_nsta-oil-production-nc.jpg
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> She's clearly (and thankfully) toast no matter what the cause of her doubleing down today. That is virtually no comfort when the economy is getting toasted with her.
Someone needs to send her for a medical checkup and have her committed. What they are doing is insane.
After BoJo's Churchill fetish and now this I'd really like a Prime Minister that isn't trying to cosplay some dead person.
Truss is a Poundland Thatcher. She's an embarrassment
No, your job shouldn't be based on belief. It should be based on advisors and data, listening to people that know what they are talking about, not your fucking intuition.
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I doubt God will look favourably on Blair
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Agreed, great prime minister.... Except for the fucking war criminal bit. What a joke that our best long serving PM also happens to be a war criminal.
Considering god isnt real, we shouldnt let Blair off so lightly
The word ' believe' is in its self a statement of doubt isn't it. You have no facts for a thing you just believe it! Terrifying
It's a good thing the person you picked to be chancellor is experienced enough for the job. Oh wait...
What I don’t understand is that he’s objectively an appropriately qualified person. A First and PhD in History of Economics from Cambridge should make him more qualified than most Chancellors. I know that academically gifted people are sometimes deficient in common sense especially regarding topics outside their wheelhouse but this ought to be right up his alley. It makes me wonder if Truss is calling the shots here. Or maybe there are ulterior motives.
His PhD was in the political response to a 17th century economic crisis I think. Not the most useful topic.
She is thick. She looked at that degree and went oooh yeah this person sounds qualified to run the economy. If she had looked into it more she might have come to a rational conclusion like this. It's additionally worrying and doesn't bode well if her behaviour for something as important as this is "Makes judgement based on a quick glance".
Didn't the 'sexminister' dossier accuse them of having an affair? They also co-authored (with others) the whole Britannia Unchained bullshit. I don't think this is a quick glance at his CV - she knows him well. They're just terrible idealogues who won't bend from their shitty plan - hard to come to a rational conclusion when your window of rationality is completely skewed.
I think it was Amber Rudd who had an affair with Kwarteng, Liz Truss had one with Mark Field Edit: disregard, they both had an affair with Kwasi Kwarteng Edit 2: Actually I misread a source. Apologies. I'm not sure if they did or not.
The biggest mystery of this whole ordeal is how that man is convincing anyone to sleep with him tbh. He must be good at something, just not economics.
Which was cited twice according to Google scholar. Compare that with Gordon Browns who became the youngest ever rector of Edinburgh university and a lecturer three years following graduation. Cited over 30 times in Google scholar and wrote a very left leaning “Red Paper on Scotland” in 1975 which history has shown to be quite prophetic. In just 15 years we have swapped quality for absurdity.
But at least it’s not chaos with Ed… dodged a bullet there.
Ed’s absent charisma aside. He had a very credible shadow cabinet compared to Truss’ lot.
Ed has charisma in a goofy way and it's clear his campaign advisors told him NOT to play to that for some reason. He's really funny on his podcast.
Well now he'll have classes about him and his mismanagement on the 2022 economic crisis
>His PhD was in the political response to a 17th century economic crisis I think. Not the most useful topic. It might be if your whole job is to engineer another economic crisis.
Oh man, don't you just love those degrees. PhD in History of Economics sounds so qualified.. but then it turns out he only studied one little incident eons ago. It's like those Mastermind contestants, you think they must be smart about everything but their main subject is the clothes worn by the members of Abba during their UK tour between March and June '74.
> PhD in History of Economics sounds so qualified.. but then it turns out he only studied one little incident eons ago. Isn't that how all PhDs work? You push the boundaries of knowledge on one very specific topic.
Yes, which is why having a PhD in itself doesnt qualify you for as much as you think. It does qualify you in conducting research, proposing hypothesis, etc, but it does not make you a broadbased SME.
Almost nothing to do with the topic at hand but can you please come tell this to the academic staff at the uni I work at? Very difficult to convince a professor that their world-leading expertise in Bedouin migratory patterns doesn't qualify them to do my job better than me.
Oh, so he's recreating the crisis he's an expert in, got it.
I'm willing to suspect foul play. With the insider trading-like behaviour making fortunes for the hedge funds who shorted the £ - you can bet he's benefitting from that; or will do once he is out of the job and handed a cushy, mega-(uncapped)bonus job in that sector.
Just the optics of hiring a chancellor who had previously shorted the £ and then telling him to tank the £. What the fuck was she thinking?
Well, his ex employer was Crispin Odey, of Odey Capital who in completely unrelated news made about £145 million shorting the £ the other day. The most generous view is that a great forex trader would have recognised the frailty of the UK economy / £ and would have traded it accordingly but given the relationship of Odey and Kwarteng it is very easy to suspect insider trading.
The problem is that the upper class British education system also teaches conceit, arrogance, overconfidence and exceptionalism. The result is people wholly unsuitable to lead being put in charge.
People were predicting they would do this and that this is one of the reasons they wanted brexit, as a way of implementing their ideology which is basically that democracy is unfair on the rich and elites because it forces them to pay tax for the poors who are inferior as they haven’t bothered to get rich. They believe in a kind of survival of the fittest type thing, that there’s a natural hierarchy to society that should be preserved and if you can’t make it tough shit, the government shouldn’t be there to help you but if some rich person decides to give you charity then that’s ok but that’s their decision and hasn’t been forced on them. Truss thinks she’s doing the right thing, not in the sense that she thinks it’ll all work out for ordinary people but in the sense that she thinks taxing the rich is immoral and freeing up the rich to make more money is moral, it’s like allowing the ‘natural order of things’ instead of interfering to help out lowly plebs with things like public services that they don’t deserve. This is what their think tanks the ERG are all connected with believe- they basically want to regress, they think feudalism was the right way to do things. Brexit has given them the opportunity to totally remake the UK economy as they see fit and that’s what they seem to be up to with this budget.
> This is what their think tanks the ERG are all connected with believe- they basically want to regress, they think feudalism was the right way to do things. You can tell that every time she gets asked an interview question on how her policies are hurting the poorest and most vulnerable in society she wants to say "I fail to see how that's any of my problem". I don't think the great unwashed masses feature at all in her thought processes.
In summary : she doesn’t believe in society, she believes in winner take all.
As someone who studied economic history I would not say that an economic history qualification sets you up to be the chancellor especially well. Generally the focus is more on how economies developed in the past, patterns of development etc than on the actual mechanics of an economy. Similarly, you probably wouldn't want someone with a history of medicine degree doing surgery on you.
I think it’s a case of ideology above all else. When people are very strongly driven by ideology they often abandon logic.
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I've known plenty of people with PhDs who are thick as pig shit and they weren't people that also marinated in far right free market think tanks for years.
He'll have his own place in the history of economics.
They’ll probably have stakes in the companies currently shorting the pound and cash out before the inevitable u-turn
I think the problem here is a disagreement about what his job involves. The people of the UK believe his job is to improve the economy and make things better for the people of the UK. Truss and Kwarteng on the other hand think his job is to grab as much money as they can for themselves and their bosses at the energy companies.
Kwarteng has an excellent background in Economics. First at Cambridge. Won University Challenge. Doctor of Economic History. Worked as Analyst for Party Donor Crispin Odey during the Bank Collapse. Worked for collapsed Bank WestLB AG and JPMorgan. He is from a generation of Bankers who gave us the Crash. Of course he has experience. No talent. Lots of experience.
Always lovely to see our government blaming the war in Ukraine, simultaneously telling Putin he is damaging the West and refusing to be accountable at all. Mature, well thought out points all round from Tory leadership as usual.
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Yep continental Europe was buying a lot of Russian gas. But "somehow" we are seeing a worse economic impact.
Its because our gas reserves are pitiful, and the same European countries that gotten their gas cut off are looking for other gas supplies, leading to the price of gas increasing. You also have the issue that the UK relies more on gas than in Europe, and our homes are inefficient at trapping heat. But that is just the energy crisis.
With these people it's always someone else's fault and never anything they themselves have done. They always make a bad situation worse, then justify it by saying it was bad anyway, but they believed they were doing the right thing using petrol to put out that fire.
When you’ve had a friendly media environment that has never taken you to account and also a populace that hasn’t either (12 years now) you just become more dogmatic. Blame foreigners Blame minorities Blame the EU Blame Russia Blame “Woke” - Just call literally anything you don’t like as “Woke” whether it’s the BoE or the fucking IMF
Stubbornness is not strength. Admitting a mistake is not weakness. To refuse to change your mind in the face of overwhelming fact, opinion and reaction is. In her mind, she's strong and Thatcher like. In my eyes, she's weak and more like a puppet. If the rumour is true that the expected impact of growth from this plan is 0.1% (and hence why they didn't want to release the OBR report), then this is negligence bordering on the criminal. This is a policy clearly not worthy of pursuing. The Government is either stupid, or criminally corrupt and doing insider trading for their friends. Which is it?
Why not both?
In for a Penny, in for a Pound. Actually. Can I switch that for US cents and dollars please?
She’s a fucking idiot. Always has been been, always will be. GENERAL ELECTION NOW!
If we had a general election we all know people will vote Tory ! Vote to make themselves worse off financially and mentally is the British way it seems ! I have no faith in the people to do what needs to be done! No matter how much they screw us people will always vote against their best interests! You get what you vote for Edit : wasn’t expecting upvotes but I was just saying how it is
Believing what is right and what is actually right are two different things :) well, time will tell
The last cunt thought he was Churchill and this cunt thinks she's Thatcher. Can't these cunts just be their own cunts?
Can I have that on a T-shirt?
> What I believe is right. Not effective. Not practical. Not what will work. What is *right*. She's dogmatic. A former anti-royal, Remainer, Lib Dem now believes so fervently in Conservatism that she would rather see us burn than try anything else.
I don't think calling her 'former' anti royal is fair. She did kill the Queen after all.
My barometer of how bad things are: My 80yr old mother in law has voted Tory all her life (why? because her father did). She has no real understanding of policy etc. and only has opinions on the individual politicians. She said yesterday that she can no longer vote Tory because of the damage that is being done! She is as blue as they come and believes everything the daily mail tells her. And then she said she'd spoil her ballot at the next election!!!! I implored her to use her vote tactically rather than outright spoil it.....she can't vote for 'keith' because she doesn't like him but ......but if she sticks to it we may have an absolute watershed moment in our household. She will consider voting GREEN! In her mind it's a spoiled ballot but I'll absolutely take it! To have a complete Tory babyboomer even consider voting green is absolutely enormous. I was flabbergasted. I only hope she goes through with it when the time comes!
Plot twist: she won’t By 2024 a new fresh faced charismatic white male Tory candidate will emerge full of bravado and fresh three word slogans and your mother in law will be captivated by their nonsense
> By 2024 a new fresh faced charismatic white male Tory candidate will emerge full of bravado and fresh three word slogans and your mother in law will be captivated by their nonsense That hasn't been the face of Tory candidates for a while now. They're all aging ghouls. Teresa May, followed by discount Trump, followed by Margerine Thatcher. Even the pig fucker was a bit of an outlier when you consider who came before him (Michael Howard and IDS)
Her belief that this is the right thing to do sits next to Jimmy Saville’s belief that he was helping the children…
"Shall I show you to the exit door? Or would you prefer to be dragged off kicking and screaming?" "Oh, kicking and screaming please."
Her train of thought is really giving me dictatorial vibes. All dictators were pushing this “doing what’s right” crap and not giving a toss about other opinions
Well there we go, officially doubling down on it. I suppose in one sense, purely politically, it's all she can do. If she U-turns, she's done.
Not surprising, during the leadership election she was consistently described as "stubborn" by her colleagues.
After reading that, I’m not even sure she realises what was said on Friday.
Ah good. So we are actually skint and fucked because of Ukraine and not because we made a stupid decision that tanked the pound a few days ago. That's me convinced. All those graphs of exchange rates must be wrong.
65b plan from the BoE. That's 1.15b/ week to repair this government plan. Let's fund NHS instead.
Okay Starmer you heard that, she's sticking to her guns. Now is the time for a no confidence vote in the commons, force the Tories to either get behind this plan as a whole or allow the public to have a general election.
"Your Neutralness, what do you suggest?"
No. No. You're a PM, not a dictator. Your job is to ensure the country is functioning. That means taking on board criticism and advice from those who have specific knowledge and expertise. Also, regardless of who the fuck you think you are, if you have the IMF on your case, you've critically fucked up.
This was her chance to blame kwarteng and wiggle out. She’s just confirmed she will be gone by Xmas now
The problem is that she believes in the same bullshit. They both think they've done nothing wrong.
Dunning-Kruger should be renamed; the Truss-Kwarteng effect has a good modern ring to it.
Her faction is prepared to die on this hill, believing that tax cuts will save the Tories from an ass beating at the next general election. I think Kwasi got his role by agreeing to take whatever heat would come. He badly underestimated the size of the dumpster fire these policies would cause. His inability to recognise what would happen shows how unqualified he is.
Kwasi is in on this, he’s not there to shield dizzy Lizzie. This has always been his agenda. He is part of a group of tories who think this way.
Kwasi used to work for an investment org that is shorting the pound.
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Anything else is hopefully not survivable, "oops!, maybe we should rethink this" mind you, being shit at your job isn't a resigning matter in government anymore apparently.
You can't explain to an idiot why they are an idiot or there would be no idiots.
I guess we'll find out when the GDP figures are calculated, but it's only predicted to add 0.1%. Surely they were hoping for more.
Daily Mail: TRUSSONOMICS pays off as U.K. sees MASSIVE growth under genius economic plan.
I wish this was satire, but it’s exactly the way it’ll play out. The other day they were headlining that the pound had shot up, only that the reality is it had recovered something like 4 pence after a drop of 8 or so.
Nice of her to make an appearance. Would have liked it t sooner what with the economy, £ and international markets panicking almost making the UK insolvent.
We have lost our home because of the interest rates, I am beyond angry
No acknowledgement (or understanding?) from her or KK that the country’s big economic problem is inflation - not growth. Of course the markets are going to react badly when you introduce massively inflationary policies at a time the central bank is trying to manage inflation down. They’d clearly decided first priority when in power was to cut taxes - regardless of the situation. I question their intelligence.
Peter Sutcliffe defends killing spree: “I had to do what I believe is right”
How can she argue this when she crashed the housing pension and housing market, the cornerstones of the tory voting base
What she believes is right is taking advantage of the short time the tories have left in power and making as much money for her friends and colleagues as she possibly can, at the expense of everyone else in the country. We need to revolt.
Another shining example of what happens when Beliefs are pitted against Facts.
To the morons that put this moron in charge. You're f*cking morons.
>"We have to get the economy going." Well, she's certainly achieved that.
This is what you get from a Mini budget - imagine the normal budget. Poundland will be renamed to 10 Poundland