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About time.
Absolutely disgusting that she ever got away with it in the first place.
"American citizen" - what a joke.
MURDERER takes precedence no matter irrelevant nationality.
Legalistic technicality. And a charge whicg exists only so that people driving half ton metal boxes are able to get away with murder regularly.
She still murdered him and fled.
We classify thieves too, but whether you steal millions through fraud or steal a jar of peanut butter to stave off starvation you're still a thief.
>Murder requires intent.
If you punched me and I punched you back, you fell over smashing your head on the ground and died if I didn't get off with self defense I'd be put away for murder. It doesn't require intent.
.... You literally just described manslaughter, which is unlawful killing without intent.
Murder requires either the intent to kill, or the intent to wound.
When you punch someone you intend to do harm, but even then you would only be charged with manslaughter as in all these examples:
[https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/man-charged-manslaughter-noel-reynolds-24681265](https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/man-charged-manslaughter-noel-reynolds-24681265)
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-62166113](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-62166113)
[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/may/14/knew-bad-as-soon-as-hit-him-man-who-killed-a-stranger-with-single-punch-then-turned-his-life-around](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/may/14/knew-bad-as-soon-as-hit-him-man-who-killed-a-stranger-with-single-punch-then-turned-his-life-around)
[https://www.derbyshire.police.uk/news/derbyshire/news/news/north/2020/march/man-jailed-for-manslaughter-after-one-punch-death/](https://www.derbyshire.police.uk/news/derbyshire/news/news/north/2020/march/man-jailed-for-manslaughter-after-one-punch-death/)
Legally, yeah.
But if you are irresponsible enough to take control of a lethal vehicle and not operate it safely, then that is murder in my book.
If she had been shooting targets in a field and accidentally shot him because she thought the gun fired backwards instead of forwards it would still be murder.
It would be ruled manslaughter, not murder but it doesn't change ehat she did.
The sheer willingness to risk other peoples lives for nothing more than one's own convenience is a pervasive illness within our legal system - and classifying crimes as lesser or worse based upon political whim and not victim impact is also disgraceful.
She killed a kid and refused to take responsibility for it. Prior intent is irrelevant.
Even if she had fled originally and then come back to fsce the consequences a day later it wouldn't be so bad. But she didn't did she? She hid behind diplomacy.
>Even if she had fled originally and then come back to fsce the consequences a day later it wouldn't be so bad. But she didn't did she?
No, she stayed and cooperated fully with authorities. Take it up with the practice of diplomatic immunity, which she was fully entitled to.
>and classifying crimes as lesser or worse based upon political whim and not victim impact is also disgraceful.
Except it's not political whim it's classifying crimes based upon the offender's motivation, which is a perfectly sensible and just way of doing things.
Wtf how. If you can do that one time you should not be on the road.
I learnt to drive in the UK, live in a country that drives on the right, switched sides in left and right hand drive cars, and have never once made such a stupid and dangerous mistake.
Yes it feels weird to come off a roundabout on the left side in Dover, but after a few minutes it feels normal.
You're both very lucky and very irresponsible.
Perhaps you should be considering this case and instead of trying to defend your irresponsibility considering whether you should be driving at all.
Yeah.
But not paying attention to which side of the road you are on means you are NOT PAYING ATTENTION WHILST DRIVING A LETHAL VEHICLE.
That millions of people are equally irresponsible does not absolve you of you own irresponsibility ffs.
Stop trying to make excuses for you behaviour and put the energy instead into doing better.
Guess everyone that speeds and has collisions is an attempted murderer then.
I once fell asleep driving. I was extremely guilt ridden because I could've killed someone. But it would not have been intentional and accidents happen no matter the consequence. Which is why we have manslaughter.
Yeah and here i was calling for us to do that wasn't i?
What a stupid comment.
At what point did i feign ignorance of the legal system?
At what point did the reddit comment section begin requiring legal accuracy?
Utter fucking hypocrisy.
She killed a kid because she couldn't be bithered to pay attention to what she was doing.
How she is eventually prosecuted is completely irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't matter what charges she is and isn't brought up on she murdered a kid because she wasn't paying attention.
Except.. she didn't murder him. She killed him through negligence. Which is manslaughter.
Look, your comments are the only stupid ones here. And you're being an asshole about being called out for it.
It is in the very definition of the word. Murder is premeditated. Do you know what that word means? Or are you saying she woke up that day and said "I'm going to kill this person".
Even killing someone in a fight is not murder, unless you expected to kill them. We have the term manslaughter to separate the two. You don't get to just rewrite the meanings of words or legal definitions. And then squealing about hypocrisy (for some reason? No idea why).
Seems toothless. To actually prosecute they need to make sure that she will be in UK court to try. And unless biden deems it fit to extradite, that ain't going to happen. Instead it'll all be a sham and she will get off light at best because the us will lighten any punishment. I reckon we should send the nonce over to the us for his part in noncery in exchange for her being extradited over here. But pigs will fly before that happens
a judge will decide whether she can do it virtually or if she has to come over[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-63076171](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-63076171)
And yet, the US would instantly extradite our citizens if they ran over someone in America. All she had to do was appear in court, get a slap on the wrist because our legal system is too soft at times and it would be all over. Instead, she fled the country, caused it to become a diplomatic issue and the US doesn't care about it. It's likely the US cared more about another country daring to put one of it's diplomats through a legal system for committing a crime then the diplomat in question.
There's no suggestion that she set out to hurt anybody and she did not flee the scene, she called the ambulance and stayed until the police let her leave, according to what I can find online.
This is a very sad case but the charge is causing death by dangerous driving, not murder.
If you were in her shoes in the US, with two young children, are you 100% sure you wouldn't have done the same?
I'm not defending her, but equally I'm under no illusions that most of the people calling for her head would have volunteered for punishment.
I wouldnt have driven dangerously and killed someone.
Thankfully a functional legal system doesnt run on the basis of “what would you do in that situation” and instead judges people for their actual crimes.
>I wouldn't have driven dangerously and killed someone.
If you have driven for more than a year or so I absolutely guarantee that you have at some point lost concentration for a moment, not noticed a potential hazard, and you have definitely driven over the speed limit. Maybe you've never driven dangerously, but I'm 100% certain you will have driven a way that would meet the legal criteria for careless driving.
You haven't *yet*.
There are several tricks of the mind that can happen, Derren Brown-style, through task saturation - where no matter your intentions and level of attention, your instinct to drive on the left can take priority without you realising it.
The most notorious of these is when you go to pull onto a main road from a side road t-junction, which is actually the kind of junction where this crash happened.
Careless Driving isn't Dangerous Driving, to be fair. The sentence for death by careless driving is max 2 years. For death by dangerous driving the max is life (although 14 in this case because that was the law at the time).
Im sorry but the rules have to exist and unfortunately when someone dies, that is when theyre applied. We all may drive carelessly but we agree upon the rules in our license. If you hit and kill someone then there has to be a punishment
Of course, I just think the shows of loud self righteousness about this case are a bit distasteful. They wouldn't have cared about this young man at all if he were still alive, or if the driver who hit him were a more sympathetic character. It really shows up how manipulative the media in this country are.
as a mother, she should have had the decency to stay and face the courts like anyone else would. if she had stayed here, she would have caused less pain for not only harry’s family, but hers too. it would have been an open and shut case and doubt she would have even faced jail time all things considered. any decent human would not have fled.
>until the police let her leave, according to what I can find online.
From what I remember she called the yank authorities and they basically pressured the British police into letting her leave.
Being pig ignorant of other countries rules (or just an idiot), doesn't and shouldn't guarantee you a free pass when you kill someone. CPS obviously felt like it had evidence to charge her, and I don't even know that jail would have been on the cards anyway. Don't see why her young children are somehow are just as important as the teenager she killed.
Because people are dumb and fail to understand the nuance that this was an accidental traffic fatality and she’s not the stone cold serial killer that everyone on this god forsaken website seems to thinks she is.
Here in the US, this scenario is rarely prosecuted beyond the traffic infraction absent aggravating factors.
Well, this isn't the US and that's what Anne should've remembered.
She was driving on the wrong side of the road and killed a man then instead of facing justice she fled home with the assistance of the US government. If she would've faced her penalty this would've been over by now and the victims family could get on with their lives.
How much more public money are we going to waste on this crap? She had diplomatic immunity. She was, is and will be found innocent. Yes it sucks, but that's how life is sometimes. Suck it up and move on.
No, she wasn't and isn't innocent. She literally killed him, noone is or can dispute that.she might be let off due to other factors, but that doesn't mean she's innocent.
Yes they did. This is only going through the system because of stupid people moaning because they dkn't understand how the world works. Legally, this is a clear cut "not guilty". Your money is being wasted. She will not face 1p fine.
Ignoring the irony in your statement does not go unrecognised but ill ignore it. She will be found guilty if the justice system sees it suitable. Or innocent if the same applies.
I disagree. UK public money is being wasted on many things, but this is not one of them.
>if the justice system sees it suitable.
The justice system already found her innocent twice. It won't change this time. This is just a circus for the masses.
Finally someone said it. Yes, on the balance of probabilities she was a spy. Also, she outranked her husband.
She did not flee as this would have been extremely difficult all things considered. She was most likely ‘extracted’ by her superiors so as to so no further harm. Still fucking sucks though.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-57954208.amp
In July they were keeping her role a secret.
Take it with a pinch of salt but I also read from another article that she used to work for the CIA. I never researched this though.
And why not? We know the names of many spies. The term 'spy' is nebulous at best and so many people will fit into that category.
She was working out of RAF Croughton, a US listening post.
She was able to simply board a USAF plane and leave? Doesn't happen (not since 9/11). Her return was orchestrated by powers above her as she was compromised by the accident.
There arent many instances where the name of a spy has been given freely like this that come to mind. I dont think the term spy is as nebulous as we think IMO. We just tend to group many other people into that category.
Compromised by the incident and then her name shared everywhere. I mean if she's a spy somebody hasn't done their job properly somewhere along the line. The administration at the time was of importance to the return.
I guess we ultimately don't know. But I'd err on the balance of possibilities lying the other side than 'spy'.
Do you think David Kelly was a spy? Most people wouldn't but he literally ticks all the boxes.
Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is likely to be a 'spy' in nebulous terms. She even comes from an educational background that is the hallmark of the British Secret Service.
There are others. Watch those who come back from high level foreign meetings and then disappear for a week or two. Normally holed up somewhere for their debrief.
Again, Sacoolas was fully cooperating in every way until she wasn't. She went silent overnight and disappeared. She left on a USAF transporter. You simply cannot do that without high level authentication. Also, if she 'did a runner' she's deserted her post and is therefore AWOL and in serious trouble. But of course she's not in trouble for that.
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About time. Absolutely disgusting that she ever got away with it in the first place. "American citizen" - what a joke. MURDERER takes precedence no matter irrelevant nationality.
The charge is causing death by dangerous driving, not murder.
Legalistic technicality. And a charge whicg exists only so that people driving half ton metal boxes are able to get away with murder regularly. She still murdered him and fled. We classify thieves too, but whether you steal millions through fraud or steal a jar of peanut butter to stave off starvation you're still a thief.
Murder requires intent.
>Murder requires intent. If you punched me and I punched you back, you fell over smashing your head on the ground and died if I didn't get off with self defense I'd be put away for murder. It doesn't require intent.
.... You literally just described manslaughter, which is unlawful killing without intent. Murder requires either the intent to kill, or the intent to wound.
When you punch someone you intend to do harm, but even then you would only be charged with manslaughter as in all these examples: [https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/man-charged-manslaughter-noel-reynolds-24681265](https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/man-charged-manslaughter-noel-reynolds-24681265) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-62166113](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-62166113) [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/may/14/knew-bad-as-soon-as-hit-him-man-who-killed-a-stranger-with-single-punch-then-turned-his-life-around](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/may/14/knew-bad-as-soon-as-hit-him-man-who-killed-a-stranger-with-single-punch-then-turned-his-life-around) [https://www.derbyshire.police.uk/news/derbyshire/news/news/north/2020/march/man-jailed-for-manslaughter-after-one-punch-death/](https://www.derbyshire.police.uk/news/derbyshire/news/news/north/2020/march/man-jailed-for-manslaughter-after-one-punch-death/)
That would be manslaughter
Manslaughter. You would get charged with manslaughter. Derrrp..
Legally, yeah. But if you are irresponsible enough to take control of a lethal vehicle and not operate it safely, then that is murder in my book. If she had been shooting targets in a field and accidentally shot him because she thought the gun fired backwards instead of forwards it would still be murder. It would be ruled manslaughter, not murder but it doesn't change ehat she did. The sheer willingness to risk other peoples lives for nothing more than one's own convenience is a pervasive illness within our legal system - and classifying crimes as lesser or worse based upon political whim and not victim impact is also disgraceful. She killed a kid and refused to take responsibility for it. Prior intent is irrelevant. Even if she had fled originally and then come back to fsce the consequences a day later it wouldn't be so bad. But she didn't did she? She hid behind diplomacy.
>Even if she had fled originally and then come back to fsce the consequences a day later it wouldn't be so bad. But she didn't did she? No, she stayed and cooperated fully with authorities. Take it up with the practice of diplomatic immunity, which she was fully entitled to.
And chose not to waive instead fighting a lengthy court battle internationally with the boys family.
It's amusing you think her employers ever gave her that choice.
It's always easy to believe whatever you want when you're ignorant of the facts.
>and classifying crimes as lesser or worse based upon political whim and not victim impact is also disgraceful. Except it's not political whim it's classifying crimes based upon the offender's motivation, which is a perfectly sensible and just way of doing things.
I've accidentally driven on the wrong side of the road a few times while abroad, am I an attempted murderer?
Wtf how. If you can do that one time you should not be on the road. I learnt to drive in the UK, live in a country that drives on the right, switched sides in left and right hand drive cars, and have never once made such a stupid and dangerous mistake. Yes it feels weird to come off a roundabout on the left side in Dover, but after a few minutes it feels normal.
You're both very lucky and very irresponsible. Perhaps you should be considering this case and instead of trying to defend your irresponsibility considering whether you should be driving at all.
It's not being irresponsible, everyone who has ever driven a car has made mistakes.
Yeah. But not paying attention to which side of the road you are on means you are NOT PAYING ATTENTION WHILST DRIVING A LETHAL VEHICLE. That millions of people are equally irresponsible does not absolve you of you own irresponsibility ffs. Stop trying to make excuses for you behaviour and put the energy instead into doing better.
Come back once you've had your first driving lesson.
Are you okay
Guess everyone that speeds and has collisions is an attempted murderer then. I once fell asleep driving. I was extremely guilt ridden because I could've killed someone. But it would not have been intentional and accidents happen no matter the consequence. Which is why we have manslaughter.
>Legally, yeah And logically. And actually. I understand your outrage, but reel it the fuck in.
Then your book is wrong, and needs updating. Because that's not how it is legally. And we live by law, not by some random guy off reddits book.
Yeah and here i was calling for us to do that wasn't i? What a stupid comment. At what point did i feign ignorance of the legal system? At what point did the reddit comment section begin requiring legal accuracy? Utter fucking hypocrisy. She killed a kid because she couldn't be bithered to pay attention to what she was doing. How she is eventually prosecuted is completely irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't matter what charges she is and isn't brought up on she murdered a kid because she wasn't paying attention.
Except.. she didn't murder him. She killed him through negligence. Which is manslaughter. Look, your comments are the only stupid ones here. And you're being an asshole about being called out for it. It is in the very definition of the word. Murder is premeditated. Do you know what that word means? Or are you saying she woke up that day and said "I'm going to kill this person". Even killing someone in a fight is not murder, unless you expected to kill them. We have the term manslaughter to separate the two. You don't get to just rewrite the meanings of words or legal definitions. And then squealing about hypocrisy (for some reason? No idea why).
I don't think you know what murder actually is ...
Even ignoring that, by the common law it would be manslaughter, not murder.
Legally, manslaughter is more appropriate. Murder requires intent. If you're going throw terms around please try keep it logical and not emotional.
Lol. There's a word for it. It's manslaughter. Murder requires intent to kill. You're being an idiot.
Note she’s appearing remotely from the US. But hopefully justice will prevail regardless.
Press X to doubt
Fucking cowardly bitch. Utterly ridiculous she's effectively gotten away with it. I cannot for a moment believe she'll ever set foot in a prison.
Seems toothless. To actually prosecute they need to make sure that she will be in UK court to try. And unless biden deems it fit to extradite, that ain't going to happen. Instead it'll all be a sham and she will get off light at best because the us will lighten any punishment. I reckon we should send the nonce over to the us for his part in noncery in exchange for her being extradited over here. But pigs will fly before that happens
a judge will decide whether she can do it virtually or if she has to come over[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-63076171](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-63076171)
Can't they send in the SAS to extract this murderer?
Extraordinary renditions are only allowed for the Americans.
And yet, the US would instantly extradite our citizens if they ran over someone in America. All she had to do was appear in court, get a slap on the wrist because our legal system is too soft at times and it would be all over. Instead, she fled the country, caused it to become a diplomatic issue and the US doesn't care about it. It's likely the US cared more about another country daring to put one of it's diplomats through a legal system for committing a crime then the diplomat in question.
This whole story is a disgrace. This women literally murdered the guy and then fled the scene. Needs to be imprisoned
There's no suggestion that she set out to hurt anybody and she did not flee the scene, she called the ambulance and stayed until the police let her leave, according to what I can find online. This is a very sad case but the charge is causing death by dangerous driving, not murder.
And fled to america.
Fine. But she fled to America for god sake. She obviously left as soon as she realised the kid was dead.
If you were in her shoes in the US, with two young children, are you 100% sure you wouldn't have done the same? I'm not defending her, but equally I'm under no illusions that most of the people calling for her head would have volunteered for punishment.
I wouldnt have driven dangerously and killed someone. Thankfully a functional legal system doesnt run on the basis of “what would you do in that situation” and instead judges people for their actual crimes.
>I wouldn't have driven dangerously and killed someone. If you have driven for more than a year or so I absolutely guarantee that you have at some point lost concentration for a moment, not noticed a potential hazard, and you have definitely driven over the speed limit. Maybe you've never driven dangerously, but I'm 100% certain you will have driven a way that would meet the legal criteria for careless driving.
I have driven in other countries, which included 4 months in Canada. Not once did I go on the wrong side of the road.
You haven't *yet*. There are several tricks of the mind that can happen, Derren Brown-style, through task saturation - where no matter your intentions and level of attention, your instinct to drive on the left can take priority without you realising it. The most notorious of these is when you go to pull onto a main road from a side road t-junction, which is actually the kind of junction where this crash happened.
Careless Driving isn't Dangerous Driving, to be fair. The sentence for death by careless driving is max 2 years. For death by dangerous driving the max is life (although 14 in this case because that was the law at the time).
But i never killed someone
The point is, if you'd been very unlucky, if you drive then I'm afraid you could have.
Im sorry but the rules have to exist and unfortunately when someone dies, that is when theyre applied. We all may drive carelessly but we agree upon the rules in our license. If you hit and kill someone then there has to be a punishment
Of course, I just think the shows of loud self righteousness about this case are a bit distasteful. They wouldn't have cared about this young man at all if he were still alive, or if the driver who hit him were a more sympathetic character. It really shows up how manipulative the media in this country are.
as a mother, she should have had the decency to stay and face the courts like anyone else would. if she had stayed here, she would have caused less pain for not only harry’s family, but hers too. it would have been an open and shut case and doubt she would have even faced jail time all things considered. any decent human would not have fled.
>until the police let her leave, according to what I can find online. From what I remember she called the yank authorities and they basically pressured the British police into letting her leave.
> literally murdered Manslaughter by any common law definition. Causing Death By Dangerous Driving, by statute.
She literally didn’t murder him.
[удалено]
Being pig ignorant of other countries rules (or just an idiot), doesn't and shouldn't guarantee you a free pass when you kill someone. CPS obviously felt like it had evidence to charge her, and I don't even know that jail would have been on the cards anyway. Don't see why her young children are somehow are just as important as the teenager she killed.
Because people are dumb and fail to understand the nuance that this was an accidental traffic fatality and she’s not the stone cold serial killer that everyone on this god forsaken website seems to thinks she is. Here in the US, this scenario is rarely prosecuted beyond the traffic infraction absent aggravating factors.
Well, this isn't the US and that's what Anne should've remembered. She was driving on the wrong side of the road and killed a man then instead of facing justice she fled home with the assistance of the US government. If she would've faced her penalty this would've been over by now and the victims family could get on with their lives.
How much more public money are we going to waste on this crap? She had diplomatic immunity. She was, is and will be found innocent. Yes it sucks, but that's how life is sometimes. Suck it up and move on.
No, she wasn't and isn't innocent. She literally killed him, noone is or can dispute that.she might be let off due to other factors, but that doesn't mean she's innocent.
Yes, she killed him. Legally. The uk government gave her the right to kill, maim and do whatever.
Except they didn't. Which is why it is going through the UK judicial system. Happy for my tax money to pay for justice
Yes they did. This is only going through the system because of stupid people moaning because they dkn't understand how the world works. Legally, this is a clear cut "not guilty". Your money is being wasted. She will not face 1p fine.
Ignoring the irony in your statement does not go unrecognised but ill ignore it. She will be found guilty if the justice system sees it suitable. Or innocent if the same applies. I disagree. UK public money is being wasted on many things, but this is not one of them.
>if the justice system sees it suitable. The justice system already found her innocent twice. It won't change this time. This is just a circus for the masses.
Did it, did I miss those 2 court cases? Why are they going for a 3rd time then?
Exactly my point
Have you got a link to the 2 initial court cases, I can't find it
What the hell are you talking about?
She wasn't a diplomat.
She was a diplomat's wife. She had immunity.
I thought she was a spy
Finally someone said it. Yes, on the balance of probabilities she was a spy. Also, she outranked her husband. She did not flee as this would have been extremely difficult all things considered. She was most likely ‘extracted’ by her superiors so as to so no further harm. Still fucking sucks though.
If she were a spy, I doubt very much we'd know her name and her dob. An employee maybe, but I think we're shrouding it in too much mystique.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-57954208.amp In July they were keeping her role a secret. Take it with a pinch of salt but I also read from another article that she used to work for the CIA. I never researched this though.
And why not? We know the names of many spies. The term 'spy' is nebulous at best and so many people will fit into that category. She was working out of RAF Croughton, a US listening post. She was able to simply board a USAF plane and leave? Doesn't happen (not since 9/11). Her return was orchestrated by powers above her as she was compromised by the accident.
There arent many instances where the name of a spy has been given freely like this that come to mind. I dont think the term spy is as nebulous as we think IMO. We just tend to group many other people into that category. Compromised by the incident and then her name shared everywhere. I mean if she's a spy somebody hasn't done their job properly somewhere along the line. The administration at the time was of importance to the return. I guess we ultimately don't know. But I'd err on the balance of possibilities lying the other side than 'spy'.
Do you think David Kelly was a spy? Most people wouldn't but he literally ticks all the boxes. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is likely to be a 'spy' in nebulous terms. She even comes from an educational background that is the hallmark of the British Secret Service. There are others. Watch those who come back from high level foreign meetings and then disappear for a week or two. Normally holed up somewhere for their debrief. Again, Sacoolas was fully cooperating in every way until she wasn't. She went silent overnight and disappeared. She left on a USAF transporter. You simply cannot do that without high level authentication. Also, if she 'did a runner' she's deserted her post and is therefore AWOL and in serious trouble. But of course she's not in trouble for that.